January 24, 2018 • 32 mins
Bridget and Emilie sit down with former SMNTY hosts, Cristen & Caroline to hear how they’re embracing being ‘Unladylike’ and how you can, too.
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hey, this is Emily, and this is and you're listening
to stuff Mom Never told you. Now when Britt and
I took the helm of stuff Mom Never told you,
you all welcomed us with such open arms, and you
(00:28):
answered our request to be friends in such a warm
and positive way. We appreciate that Smithy listeners, despite the
fact that we had some pretty big shoes to fill,
didn't we They huge shoes, very big shoes. And you
may be familiar with the co host that predated us,
the original creator of stuff Mom Never Told You. Kristen
(00:48):
Congres and Caroline Irvin, her co host, are now back
here in studio with us to talk about their exciting
new podcast, Unladylike That is dropping this week. So for
a Sminty universe coming together all four of us. We
are so excited to have a conversation today about what
it means to be Unladylike in ten Kristen and Caroline,
(01:13):
welcome to the show. Oh, thanks so much for having us, y'all.
Thank you. And I did bring my really big shoes, um,
so yeah, I'm probably gonna need something in them, like
big socks to help them stay on on my feet.
I would also like to go on the ruggers say
that y'all have filled those shoes, and then some you'
(01:33):
all have been terrific, delight. We couldn't have left on.
We couldn't have left our shoes with better feet. I
like this. I like this feet and shoe metaphor that
you've established early on. How long it's making a percentage
of the population really happy right now? Whatever shoe fetish
foot fetish people out there. I love it. Well, let's
(01:55):
see how long we can keep the metaphor going, y'all.
I am excited to learn every thing we can about Unladylike.
So tell us what is what is the gist behind
your new show? What does it mean to be unladylike
to you? So? The podcast is all about what happens
when women break the rules, the societal garbage, patriarchy, rules
(02:20):
about how women are supposed to be, women identified women, um,
and we basically want to take a sledgehammer to all
of that by talking to actual women identified women out
there who are breaking the rules, sisters doing it for
themselves and as podcast veterans, I mean, y'all have been
around the block when it comes to the art and
(02:42):
the exploding world of podcasting, What do you hope to
do with the new show? To sort of mix things
up for you. I think we we really wanted to
bring in more voices. That was like number one. Um,
we had heard each other's voices a lot, and I
was like, Baally was like tired of hearing my own voice. Second,
(03:03):
I was tired of hearing Christen flore Um. So we
wanted to bring in more real humans to share their
experiences because when we were on Sminty, we had definitely
gotten used to specifying for listeners that hey, like we're
not the experts, we are not every woman, we can't
speak for every woman, but here's like, here's what we've
(03:23):
learned from our research. So we still wanted to be
able to present research, context, history of a topic, but
bring in those voices that had experienced whatever the topic was,
had lived it. I also think that the uh, the
hellscape that was the election of really shaped the direction too,
(03:45):
as to since gender, straight, privileged white women of like
wanting to decenter ourselves too in the conversations and get
better at listening. Um, so we were really excited to a, yeah,
find some stories and like talk talk to ladies about
what's really going on? That sounds awesome. I love the
(04:07):
idea of sort of building a cacophony of women's voices
and sort of having all those different experiences come together
to sort of, you know, form a chorus and sort
of tell those important stories that aren't being told. One
question that I have for you all is you mentioned
at the top of the show that you really wanted
to focus on the idea of what happens when women
don't fit into, you know, the stereotypical notion of what
(04:29):
it means to be a woman. What happens when a
woman breaks the rules? Why was that such an important
story to tell for y'all? Well? I think for one, um,
we were sick of that burden ourselves from like a
personal perspective, was tired of wearing bras still let us
to bed no more? Uh Yeah, I think, um, we
(04:51):
felt it. We felt the burden of uh expectations of
women and femininity. We had talked about it, read about it,
researched it, lived it, breathed it for so many years
on Sminty as well. And I think in in in
our desire to bring in more voices and wondering like okay, well,
(05:12):
what voices are we going to bring in and what
do they have in common? You know, it's like, yeah,
we could just talk to cool women all day, but
what is the thread, And the thread is that they
are throwing off those expectations. They aren't going to sit
there and behave in whatever way is expected. You know,
they might not even be likable, but they are. Whatever
(05:33):
they're doing in their field and their work, whatever it is,
they are sort of doing the unexpected. And I think
more broadly, just as feminists, um, it requires constantly breaking
the rules and acting out and acting up, um, being loud,
and it can be really uncomfortable obviously, like as girls
(05:54):
were so socialized to color within the lines, um, stay
cleaning pretty, etcetera. But it's a time to break all
the rules because the rules will not protect us. Well
learn exactly, well, yeah, exactly, the rules won't protect us.
And I think you know, we've seen this deluge of
(06:15):
think pieces, for instance, lately, about women's anger, especially in
the wake of the election, and people seem to be
commenting on women's anger a lot. Uh, And that to
me is very unladylike because it's not as if women
have never been angry like, right, I mean, we're we've
always been able to get angry, but women's anger is
(06:35):
something that's typically feared or dismissed or stereo stereotyped. And
so I feel like that's that cultural moment of like,
oh my god, women are getting angry and loud is
such a great thing to be happening in tandem with
us launching unladylike, because that's not that we're going to
talk about rage all the time, but that's sort of
(06:58):
I'm a cranky jerk. I am curious though, Emily and
bridget Um, I'm I'd love to bounce the ball back
to y'all in terms of unladylike because it's always kind
of a fun convo to find out, like when you
say unlady like, what other how other women relate to it?
And Um, since y'all are also so steeped in activism
and feminism and all the all the isms and gender, what,
(07:21):
what do y'all do you all feel like we're living
in an unladylike era? That's a big question. I feel
like the nature of the term is an inverse one, right,
So unladylike it's a rejection of a role which I
think is really interesting. You know me, I love I
love a good word with the word boss in it.
I like, I feel like the reason bossed up is
(07:42):
the name of my company is because I like the
framework of here's the power I'm taking for myself, here's
here's not what I'm rejecting, here's what I'm owning. And
I think they both have a really important role in
the feminist dialogue and in shaping your own role for
yourself and owning what you want and what you don't want.
(08:04):
And so there's a part of it to me that's
very I think Caroline really hit on a nerve there.
It's really angry. It's really at its core it's about
saying no, another word I love to use quite a bit.
And so yeah, I think the term unladylike really does
uh strike a negative chord in that you're throwing off expectations,
(08:27):
which I think is quite cool. Yeah, that's that's very deep.
I think it's like interesting. I didn't mean to get
us to Philip stoned like having like a what does
it really mean? Though? Man? Yeah, I think for me,
I I really identify with what you said about sort
(08:48):
of this this ground swell of anger and rage and
frustration that women have been feeling. But I like to
think that women have been unladylike and angry and mean
and salty and bitchy and pissy. Rightfully, so, since forever,
right like, my entire thing has been looking at women
who weren't likable, who weren't nice, who weren't sweet, And
(09:10):
those are the women I always was really interested in
and identified with. And so, you know, as a kid,
I remember when we were trying out for the school play.
We were doing Snow White, and I badly wanted to
be the queen. We were doing Charlie and the Chocolate Factory,
and I wanted to be Verruca saw the like really
braddy annoying girl because that was rare. Like I understood
that you were supposed to not like those characters because
(09:32):
they were female and they were unlikable. And so my
whole life have been drawn to this idea that women
who are angry and rage and have something to say
and aren't always super nice are the ones to sort
of look out for and be interested in. And so
I would argue that all throughout history we've seen women
like that who don't give up and don't hear if
they piss you off. And I think now more than ever,
(09:54):
that's okay. Those women are saying, you know, we've played
nice and tried to you know, couch what I wanted
to say in sort of nice language, and you know,
pretty you know, I've I've learned how to be likable
and say what I have to say without you know,
hurting your feelings. And I think now women are saying, no,
I'm going to say it and if it hurts your
feelings and hurts your feelings and you can deal with it.
I am super excited to dive more into the business
(10:17):
behind your new podcast, because, as we know, leaving a
big network like How Stuff Works is no easy feet.
Y'all struck out on your own on Ladylike is your
own brand that you've launched, and the launch of this
podcast is a huge milestone in the sort of journey
that y'all have been on as creatives. We're going to
dive more into that after this quick break, So let's
(10:45):
talk more about how you got to this point, Kristen
and Caroline. You were with How Stuff Works, hosting and
creating stuff mom never told you for so long, your
veterans of the industry. What is it like to feel
like scrappy startup entrepreneurs? Like, how did that feel? How
is that journey? It was exciting? Um. It was something
(11:06):
that we had a lot of energy, both from a
creative standpoint of wanting to try new things production wise, um,
and also politically, as we've just been talking about so
on a lot of different levels. Just bringing a lot
of energy to it um and also getting to meet
(11:26):
a new part of the podcast world UM, and and
kind of learning more about the craft. It is scrappy, though,
I think that's a good word to describe it as
having gone through the process myself. You gotta scrappy to
start something new, totally, absolutely, And it's it's I think
(11:47):
we you know, as with anything that you're starting, it's new.
If you're going in a new direction, you don't know
what you don't know. And so we definitely did strike
out on our own with certain expectations about how quickly
we would be able to do things and and what
we would be able to do. And it was definitely
a big ship to steer and I I say that
(12:07):
and it sounds like, well, duh, you like launched a
company in a new show, But I think in our
heads or in my head at least, it's like, oh, yeah,
we'll be able to do this. It's you know, gonna
be super snappy and uh well. And also, I mean
it makes me think like less about the kind of
the work ahead because it's like, Okay, we're gonna make
a new podcast, we're gonna write this book, we're gonna
(12:29):
we're gonna we're gonna make some content. Let's do it.
But it was so much of um, the work wife
relationship too, of learning how to work with each other
on a on a deeper level honestly, like a very
like wifely we're very legally bound now we I think
Kris and I are just about more married than she
and her husband are. But yeah, I mean we've we've
(12:51):
definitely it's been a lesson in like work wifeing for sure,
but also just interpersonal stuff in general. I mean, like
Kristen has had to fully understand how much I come
to rely on emojis to understand tone and communication. For instance,
got to have those emojis. That's a major part of
my work life. Bridget and I solely text with emojis
(13:11):
pretty much communication methodology. I get it, so I'm curious,
can you take us through your creative process a little bit.
You you spoke to the idea of having a really
good working relationship and sort of understanding how each other
functions and works. What is what does the creative process
look like for un Ladylike. So the creative process with
developing Unladylike the podcast started with our elevator pitch of
(13:37):
we want to make something that feels like Amy Poehler
and Samantha b hosted This American Life. So we want
to do a little more narrative stuff to explore that
level of audio production and again like talk to you
more people, um, and still be able to flex our
nerdy feminist muscles at the same time. UM. So we
(13:59):
kind have had that spark and as y'all know from
stuff I've never told you, like the research that it
entails like we kind of walked in with like a
head full of like we know how to research, and
we know a lot of stuff about gender and um
now we're going to kind of repackage it in in
new ways. Yeah. Part of the part of the building
(14:22):
up creative process has definitely been learning to package all
of that research and gumption and scrappiness into something listenable, UH,
that has an arc, that has a narrative that has,
you know, a couple of different acts, and it because
we are so lucky to be working with like radio
veterans and podcast veterans UM in our production team and
(14:44):
our editorial team, and UH, they've definitely played a huge
role in helping us guide that so that we're not
just you know, throwing a bunch of research spaghetti at
the wall. And I would say that day to day
the UM, the really helpful thing about our work life
relationship is that we are both obviously interested in a
(15:09):
lot of the same things. We UM actually like often
show up at each other's houses wearing very similar outfits.
The men in our lives are kind of carbon copies
of each other. But when it comes to like workflow
and tasks, we naturally gravitate toward different things, different but
(15:30):
complimentary things. UM. And that's been a really helpful thing
to to discover and kind of like delegate naturally between
us so that we're not both just like trying to
do the same thing at the same time. Awesome, and
I imagine that must be helpful in terms of your
company writ large, so One of my favorite parts of
(15:51):
you launching the un lady Like brand are your newsletters.
Can you tell us all the different pieces that go
into how you envision on lady Like really supporting women
and girls and providing the kind of content as one
might call it in our industry, or information that you
might want to get out into the world. Like. There's
lots of forms that you're taking with that, correct, right,
(16:13):
And I think one of our main overarching approaches is
that we want to create things and put things out
in the world that can help stave off hopelessness and exhaustion.
I I think it's so easy. It's so easy, Emily,
you know, you talk about burnout. It's so easy to
feel like, oh my god, like I've been through the Ringer,
things are terrible. What can I even do? So we
(16:36):
don't want to just create a bunch of stuff that's
telling you how terrible it is. It's telling you that
there's sexists and racists in the world. We want to
contextualize that information and then shore it up with some
good news and some inspirational stuff and some actual steps
that you can take. So that's sort of like the
guiding force around all the stuff we create, and a big,
(16:58):
a big focus with the new this letter in particular
is there's a section actually good news for all those
reasons that Caroline stated, which was also just like selfishly
a little bit of self preservation of like I just
I don't want to read about Trump anymore today, but
also wanting to make sure that we are keeping an
eye on things happening with women and girls outside of
(17:20):
our own backyards and on a global scale. Um, and
we can always do better with that, but trying to
like showcase the work of women who don't look like
us and keep intersectionality at the forefront as much as
we can. I think that's so important. And just like
you were saying, it's so important to not feel like
you're just throwing a lot of bad news at people
(17:43):
and overwhelming them, because then they just shut down and
they think there's nothing I can do. We're all gonna die.
Everything is awful. And why even bother why I think
out of bed right, like if you just give people
so much bad news, they almost sort of can't function.
And but I was working at Planned Parenthood. We in
in our online newsletters usually it was an entire newsletter
(18:04):
of all this awful stuff. But we always had a
section called getting us Through, So it doesn't matter if
it's just a cute baby in a sweatshirt or like
a dog with like it could be the dumbest thing.
But if it's something positive, that's this is what's getting
me through all this bad news. Even just ending on
that can be really really powerful, yeah, and actionable. That's
always been super important to me. It's like one thing
(18:25):
to pepper in all the real news with a cute
animals being bros kind of gift or like unlikely friendships,
which is the right, you know, but but being able
to say concretely remember on the end of the year episode,
we one of the things that our listeners responded to
the most was our advice to save your elected officials
(18:47):
numbers in your cell phones, just to make it easier
to take action all year round. For me, I'm always
focused on, Okay, what can I do with this information
to have a real practical, tactical impact in what's happening
in the world, and also make it easy, like don't
make me work too hard, but make it make it impactful,
make it resourceful, and make it an opportunity to to
(19:09):
act on our shared values. So I really love hearing
that that's that's the direction you're taking us in. Yeah,
totally um. And it could be as simple as like
if we write a blurb in the newsletter about something,
just tacking on a little thing at the end, it's like, hey,
if you want to learn more and donate, go here.
Because I know when I'm consuming online media it's so
easy to get so lazy and just be like, oh,
(19:31):
there's that terrible thing again. But if you if you
force feed me, you know, spoon feed me, the the
ability to actually help or do something actionable, I'm more
likely to do it. So what can you tell us
about the book? Because when you all left stuff, I've
never told you you made the big announcement that you
were having a book baby, and I know things are
(19:54):
still a little under wraps about that, so you can't
tell us too much about it. But is there anything
you can share for the Aspire authors who might be
listening to this about what the co authorship process was
like for you or anything else we can expect to
hear on the unladylike book front. It was very intense.
I've actually talked to this is to put listeners minds
(20:14):
at ease. Like I've actually talked to other writers and
creators and um, I have a novelist family friend who's
turned out a couple of amazing books, and they all
pretty much say the same thing, which is like, you'll
love creating and you'll feel driven to write, but in
the moment, it feels like the hardest, grossest, worst thing
(20:34):
in the world. Um. And so that's kind of where
we were of like, we love what we're doing and
we can't wait to share this with people, and we
love the research, but it's the it is the actual
like book birthing process that is so just like, oh
my god, please, I'm going to run away. Yeah. I
don't know anyone who's written a book who's like I
just love the writing process. Our our editor even even
(20:58):
consult as a couple of times of like, no, really,
this sucks, like this, this is not the fun part.
I gotta say, though, in the throes of all of
the manuscripting it was super arduous, as it should be.
I mean, you're writing a book, um, but afterwards it
does feel so good. And the fact that we were
really passionate and still are obviously really passionate about the
(21:21):
subject matter kept us going. It also again like helps
that we were fueled post election to write this guide
to smashing the patriarchy and claiming your space because it
feels more necessary than ever before. Um, so yeah, it was.
It was a wild process, and Caroline and I literally
(21:43):
like split the manuscript into and went our separate ways
and did our research kind of like we would do
with podcast prep, of like oh, let's pick a topic
and go and read and then we'll come back and share. Um.
And that was that was an interesting kind of way
for us to also learn what each other gravitates towards
(22:03):
in our respective work processes too. I mean, seventeen was
just a huge, huge year of learning that I'm glad
behind me, but also it was invaluable. Wasn't there a
Kardashian quote like a year of many life lessons? That
was a kylie. It seems like everyone is. That's the
(22:24):
year of people realizing things, realizing I mean, honestly kind
of true. Let's talk more about how you're using your
new podcast to help everybody realize things. After this quick
break and we're back, and I'm so curious, can you
(22:52):
tell us what your premier episode of unladylike will be
all about. So we uh, we really been working on
it off and on for a year since it was
the pilot episode. And um, we decided on abortion because hey,
if we're gonna call ourselves and lady like, let's just
come out of the gate with a convo about abortion chat.
(23:15):
You know. Yeah, yeah, yeah, just a little fireside chat,
you know. Um and uh And specifically we're focusing in
on the money aspect of how people actually pay for abortions,
how much they cost, which is just like such a
maze that we didn't realize was even there. Um, And
(23:37):
we learned a lot, and we had we had no
desire to talk about like the arguments for and against abortion.
We had no desire to discuss the handwringing and the
ethics and the morality and and you know any any
of that. Yeah, because it's like, yo, abortion is legal
one yeah exactly, so like let's not give any of
(24:00):
that any space in our brains. It's legal. People get them,
but they get them in different ways. How do they
pay for them and how much do they cost? Because
we also realized like, oh, hey, we're a pair of
women who are super pro choice. We're in our thirties.
We're not exactly sure how much abortion costs. And the
more we talked to women, like everyone seemed to have
(24:21):
a story of like a lot of times it was like, well, yeah,
I had to be I I remember that because I
was late on rent that month, because I had to
pay for the abortion, because a lot of times it's
paid out of pocket. And then of course, like bridget
I'm sure you know, well, like all of the restrictions
that ultimately just make it more and more and more expensive. Um,
(24:44):
so it's it's really uh startling how abortion is kind
of a luxury procedure in this country. So yeah, that
was that's our pilot. And we brought a little clip
for y'all if you want, if you want to sneak peak,
we love that. Well. I got pregnant the classy way
on the floor of an Amtrak train in the handicapped bathroom.
(25:09):
And I proposed this, if you are having sex on
the floor of an Amtrak train in a handicapped bathroom,
maybe you're not ready to be a mother. I was twenty.
Most people would consider that Unladylike I just say, I'm
a good time. I'm a fun person. Trail was so
not ready to have a kid. But thankfully she had
(25:30):
like basically the ultimate connection in this situation. My mother
super She's the best woman in the world. She's a nurse,
nurses and squeezes people in the world, and you know,
being raised by a nurse, I knew of that. I
could tell her. I was like, Hey, I'm pregnant, and
the next words out of her mouth were what do
you want to do? And that that choice that she
(25:52):
gave me. Immediately, I just breathed a huge sigh of relief,
like waiting the ex Heil Terry McMillan and Style just
got it all out and and I was like, wow, okay,
so I decided to have the abortion. Yeah, this is
just the start for joy Al. Her mom did even more.
(26:13):
She set everything up with a doctor friend to handle
the procedure pro bono. She got a pro bono a Bobo.
The pro bono Abobos is my new dream band. Thank you,
You're welcome. But hold up now. So what you're telling me, though,
is that Joel's mom hooked her up with I'm saying
this in all caps listeners, a free abortion on demand,
(26:37):
and she didn't have to go to an abortion clinic.
Her appointment was in a generic medical office building, so
that meant that when she showed up, there wouldn't be
any protesters. You know, there were no people waving signs,
nothing like that. Trial might as well have been going
to the dentist. It was a medical office building. I
walked in, go up. It's really nice, you know, nice
(26:58):
waiting room, very quiet it. I think I might have
been the only person there. He might have opened just
for me. I'm not sure. Um going, and in the
room there was an anesthesiologist and my doctor. So then
the next thing I knew, I woke up and and
I had, like, I don't know, apple juice and Graham
(27:20):
crackers or something. My other friends have said. You don't
get put to sleep regularly. I mean, getting anesthesia is
a luxury. You don't get put to sleep for an
abortion because the procedure is very very quick, and they
have to you know, be awake in feeling that. You've
got to feel the vacuum. I didn't have to feel that.
(27:41):
And to quickly clarify, the vacuum that Joyell's referencing is
the vacuum aspiration abortion, also known as the surgical abortion,
which is super common, super safe, and joy l was
under general anesthesia for it, so I know that's just
extra extra privilege on top privileged. I just got to
(28:01):
wake up. I didn't see a bill it was amazing.
So this might have been the first time I've ever
heard someone described their abortion as amazing. Yeah, me too.
But Caroline, let's be real. If people have a haunting
experience of abortion, there's a good chance that had nothing
to do with the emotional, religious, or whatever other pressures
(28:23):
women experience, and more to do with the money. Wow.
As the daughter of a nurse, first of all, shout
out to everything that she just said about having a
nurse mama, because that is a privilege unlike anything other.
And you know what I'm talking about. Yeah, my mom
is a doctor. She's a pediatrician, beloved in our town.
My mom is the kind of doctor that when she
(28:45):
walks down the street, people run out of shops to
give her hugs. So I get it. I get the
vibe of having a really strong mama bear that is
involved in the medical community. Also, nurses have that sort
of don't mess with me vibe where don't come for
their kids, don't off with their kid like you know,
want to mess with a nurse. And if there was
anyone who I'd want to like walk me through this
(29:05):
and support me through that, it will be a mom
who is a medical professional. So I definitely identify with that. Yeah,
And it's such an important privilege to point out of
how rare this is, Like if you don't have a
family member who can get you a medical hook up,
this is a huge obstacle in terms of access. So
how can our listeners tune in for the premiere? I'm
sure we want to hear the rest of that episode
(29:26):
and where you take it from there? You can find
us on Apple Podcasts just search Unladylike. You can also
find us on Stitcher or anywhere you like to listen
to your podcast. UM. You can also head over to
our website Unladylike dot c O slash podcast where you
can get even more details and listen to the trailer UM,
(29:48):
and you can find us everywhere on social at unlady
Like Media Awesome. So where are you hoping to take
unlady Like next? You've got your premiere coming out this week?
What are your wildest ambitions for getting unlady going to Hollywood?
Speaking personally, I don't want to speak for your ambition, Caroline,
would be it from me. Uh, one of my wildest
(30:10):
ambitions for the show is to share the stories that
you didn't know that you needed to hear and to
um to really break ground in the women's podcasting realm
because there are obviously so many amazing like women focused
and gender and feminism focus podcasts out there, but there's
(30:32):
still so much more room for us to explore and
so many more stories out there to be told. And
I'm just pumped to go talk to people. Yeah, I'm
I'm so ready to create like an army of action
minded people humans in general who sent us sentient human beings.
(30:52):
Although if robots want to join us, they can just
please don't kill it. But no, I I really I
I you know, I loved that. Was one of my
favorite parts of participating in Smenty was having that community
and being able to talk to people and hear their
stories like what a privilege talk about privilege right, like
to be able to to hear from people who have
(31:13):
lived the stuff that you've only researched and um, so
I hope to build up our own community with unladylike
as well and then use that underlying principle of anger
and action to move forward together. And I just really
hope that listeners derive a sense of empowerment. To use
(31:38):
a very overused, overused term, but to your point earlier
Emily about UM making things actionable. UM, hopefully like by
hearing women like living their lives and and doing the
damn thing whether people want them to or not, can
give people a sense of hope and a sense that, hey,
(31:59):
you can at one foot in front of the other two.
We're all in this together, and let's get on lady like.
We'll sign us up for the unladylike angry mob of women.
We will be right there with you on the front lines.
And listeners, we want to hear from you what does
it mean to be unladylike? In and Kristen and Caroline,
thanks so much for coming back to your old girl's
(32:21):
stomping grounds to hang out with us on the pod. Yeah,
thanks so much for having us. We fun talking. We
appreciate it so much. You can find us on Instagram
at stuff mom Ever Told You, on Twitter at mom
Stuff Podcast, and as always, we love reading your emails
at mom stuff at how stuff works dot com.
Hey, this is Emily, and this is and you're listening
to stuff Mom Never told you. Now when Britt and
I took the helm of stuff Mom Never told you,
you all welcomed us with such open arms, and you
(00:28):
answered our request to be friends in such a warm
and positive way. We appreciate that Smithy listeners, despite the
fact that we had some pretty big shoes to fill,
didn't we They huge shoes, very big shoes. And you
may be familiar with the co host that predated us,
the original creator of stuff Mom Never Told You. Kristen
(00:48):
Congres and Caroline Irvin, her co host, are now back
here in studio with us to talk about their exciting
new podcast, Unladylike That is dropping this week. So for
a Sminty universe coming together all four of us. We
are so excited to have a conversation today about what
it means to be Unladylike in ten Kristen and Caroline,
(01:13):
welcome to the show. Oh, thanks so much for having us, y'all.
Thank you. And I did bring my really big shoes, um,
so yeah, I'm probably gonna need something in them, like
big socks to help them stay on on my feet.
I would also like to go on the ruggers say
that y'all have filled those shoes, and then some you'
(01:33):
all have been terrific, delight. We couldn't have left on.
We couldn't have left our shoes with better feet. I
like this. I like this feet and shoe metaphor that
you've established early on. How long it's making a percentage
of the population really happy right now? Whatever shoe fetish
foot fetish people out there. I love it. Well, let's
(01:55):
see how long we can keep the metaphor going, y'all.
I am excited to learn every thing we can about Unladylike.
So tell us what is what is the gist behind
your new show? What does it mean to be unladylike
to you? So? The podcast is all about what happens
when women break the rules, the societal garbage, patriarchy, rules
(02:20):
about how women are supposed to be, women identified women, um,
and we basically want to take a sledgehammer to all
of that by talking to actual women identified women out
there who are breaking the rules, sisters doing it for
themselves and as podcast veterans, I mean, y'all have been
around the block when it comes to the art and
(02:42):
the exploding world of podcasting, What do you hope to
do with the new show? To sort of mix things
up for you. I think we we really wanted to
bring in more voices. That was like number one. Um,
we had heard each other's voices a lot, and I
was like, Baally was like tired of hearing my own voice. Second,
(03:03):
I was tired of hearing Christen flore Um. So we
wanted to bring in more real humans to share their
experiences because when we were on Sminty, we had definitely
gotten used to specifying for listeners that hey, like we're
not the experts, we are not every woman, we can't
speak for every woman, but here's like, here's what we've
(03:23):
learned from our research. So we still wanted to be
able to present research, context, history of a topic, but
bring in those voices that had experienced whatever the topic was,
had lived it. I also think that the uh, the
hellscape that was the election of really shaped the direction too,
(03:45):
as to since gender, straight, privileged white women of like
wanting to decenter ourselves too in the conversations and get
better at listening. Um, so we were really excited to a, yeah,
find some stories and like talk talk to ladies about
what's really going on? That sounds awesome. I love the
(04:07):
idea of sort of building a cacophony of women's voices
and sort of having all those different experiences come together
to sort of, you know, form a chorus and sort
of tell those important stories that aren't being told. One
question that I have for you all is you mentioned
at the top of the show that you really wanted
to focus on the idea of what happens when women
don't fit into, you know, the stereotypical notion of what
(04:29):
it means to be a woman. What happens when a
woman breaks the rules? Why was that such an important
story to tell for y'all? Well? I think for one, um,
we were sick of that burden ourselves from like a
personal perspective, was tired of wearing bras still let us
to bed no more? Uh Yeah, I think, um, we
(04:51):
felt it. We felt the burden of uh expectations of
women and femininity. We had talked about it, read about it,
researched it, lived it, breathed it for so many years
on Sminty as well. And I think in in in
our desire to bring in more voices and wondering like okay, well,
(05:12):
what voices are we going to bring in and what
do they have in common? You know, it's like, yeah,
we could just talk to cool women all day, but
what is the thread, And the thread is that they
are throwing off those expectations. They aren't going to sit
there and behave in whatever way is expected. You know,
they might not even be likable, but they are. Whatever
(05:33):
they're doing in their field and their work, whatever it is,
they are sort of doing the unexpected. And I think
more broadly, just as feminists, um, it requires constantly breaking
the rules and acting out and acting up, um, being loud,
and it can be really uncomfortable obviously, like as girls
(05:54):
were so socialized to color within the lines, um, stay
cleaning pretty, etcetera. But it's a time to break all
the rules because the rules will not protect us. Well
learn exactly, well, yeah, exactly, the rules won't protect us.
And I think you know, we've seen this deluge of
(06:15):
think pieces, for instance, lately, about women's anger, especially in
the wake of the election, and people seem to be
commenting on women's anger a lot. Uh, And that to
me is very unladylike because it's not as if women
have never been angry like, right, I mean, we're we've
always been able to get angry, but women's anger is
(06:35):
something that's typically feared or dismissed or stereo stereotyped. And
so I feel like that's that cultural moment of like,
oh my god, women are getting angry and loud is
such a great thing to be happening in tandem with
us launching unladylike, because that's not that we're going to
talk about rage all the time, but that's sort of
(06:58):
I'm a cranky jerk. I am curious though, Emily and
bridget Um, I'm I'd love to bounce the ball back
to y'all in terms of unladylike because it's always kind
of a fun convo to find out, like when you
say unlady like, what other how other women relate to it?
And Um, since y'all are also so steeped in activism
and feminism and all the all the isms and gender, what,
(07:21):
what do y'all do you all feel like we're living
in an unladylike era? That's a big question. I feel
like the nature of the term is an inverse one, right,
So unladylike it's a rejection of a role which I
think is really interesting. You know me, I love I
love a good word with the word boss in it.
I like, I feel like the reason bossed up is
(07:42):
the name of my company is because I like the
framework of here's the power I'm taking for myself, here's
here's not what I'm rejecting, here's what I'm owning. And
I think they both have a really important role in
the feminist dialogue and in shaping your own role for
yourself and owning what you want and what you don't want.
(08:04):
And so there's a part of it to me that's
very I think Caroline really hit on a nerve there.
It's really angry. It's really at its core it's about
saying no, another word I love to use quite a bit.
And so yeah, I think the term unladylike really does
uh strike a negative chord in that you're throwing off expectations,
(08:27):
which I think is quite cool. Yeah, that's that's very deep.
I think it's like interesting. I didn't mean to get
us to Philip stoned like having like a what does
it really mean? Though? Man? Yeah, I think for me,
I I really identify with what you said about sort
(08:48):
of this this ground swell of anger and rage and
frustration that women have been feeling. But I like to
think that women have been unladylike and angry and mean
and salty and bitchy and pissy. Rightfully, so, since forever,
right like, my entire thing has been looking at women
who weren't likable, who weren't nice, who weren't sweet, And
(09:10):
those are the women I always was really interested in
and identified with. And so, you know, as a kid,
I remember when we were trying out for the school play.
We were doing Snow White, and I badly wanted to
be the queen. We were doing Charlie and the Chocolate Factory,
and I wanted to be Verruca saw the like really
braddy annoying girl because that was rare. Like I understood
that you were supposed to not like those characters because
(09:32):
they were female and they were unlikable. And so my
whole life have been drawn to this idea that women
who are angry and rage and have something to say
and aren't always super nice are the ones to sort
of look out for and be interested in. And so
I would argue that all throughout history we've seen women
like that who don't give up and don't hear if
they piss you off. And I think now more than ever,
(09:54):
that's okay. Those women are saying, you know, we've played
nice and tried to you know, couch what I wanted
to say in sort of nice language, and you know,
pretty you know, I've I've learned how to be likable
and say what I have to say without you know,
hurting your feelings. And I think now women are saying, no,
I'm going to say it and if it hurts your
feelings and hurts your feelings and you can deal with it.
I am super excited to dive more into the business
(10:17):
behind your new podcast, because, as we know, leaving a
big network like How Stuff Works is no easy feet.
Y'all struck out on your own on Ladylike is your
own brand that you've launched, and the launch of this
podcast is a huge milestone in the sort of journey
that y'all have been on as creatives. We're going to
dive more into that after this quick break, So let's
(10:45):
talk more about how you got to this point, Kristen
and Caroline. You were with How Stuff Works, hosting and
creating stuff mom never told you for so long, your
veterans of the industry. What is it like to feel
like scrappy startup entrepreneurs? Like, how did that feel? How
is that journey? It was exciting? Um. It was something
(11:06):
that we had a lot of energy, both from a
creative standpoint of wanting to try new things production wise, um,
and also politically, as we've just been talking about so
on a lot of different levels. Just bringing a lot
of energy to it um and also getting to meet
(11:26):
a new part of the podcast world UM, and and
kind of learning more about the craft. It is scrappy, though,
I think that's a good word to describe it as
having gone through the process myself. You gotta scrappy to
start something new, totally, absolutely, And it's it's I think
(11:47):
we you know, as with anything that you're starting, it's new.
If you're going in a new direction, you don't know
what you don't know. And so we definitely did strike
out on our own with certain expectations about how quickly
we would be able to do things and and what
we would be able to do. And it was definitely
a big ship to steer and I I say that
(12:07):
and it sounds like, well, duh, you like launched a
company in a new show, But I think in our
heads or in my head at least, it's like, oh, yeah,
we'll be able to do this. It's you know, gonna
be super snappy and uh well. And also, I mean
it makes me think like less about the kind of
the work ahead because it's like, Okay, we're gonna make
a new podcast, we're gonna write this book, we're gonna
(12:29):
we're gonna we're gonna make some content. Let's do it.
But it was so much of um, the work wife
relationship too, of learning how to work with each other
on a on a deeper level honestly, like a very
like wifely we're very legally bound now we I think
Kris and I are just about more married than she
and her husband are. But yeah, I mean we've we've
(12:51):
definitely it's been a lesson in like work wifeing for sure,
but also just interpersonal stuff in general. I mean, like
Kristen has had to fully understand how much I come
to rely on emojis to understand tone and communication. For instance,
got to have those emojis. That's a major part of
my work life. Bridget and I solely text with emojis
(13:11):
pretty much communication methodology. I get it, so I'm curious,
can you take us through your creative process a little bit.
You you spoke to the idea of having a really
good working relationship and sort of understanding how each other
functions and works. What is what does the creative process
look like for un Ladylike. So the creative process with
developing Unladylike the podcast started with our elevator pitch of
(13:37):
we want to make something that feels like Amy Poehler
and Samantha b hosted This American Life. So we want
to do a little more narrative stuff to explore that
level of audio production and again like talk to you
more people, um, and still be able to flex our
nerdy feminist muscles at the same time. UM. So we
(13:59):
kind have had that spark and as y'all know from
stuff I've never told you, like the research that it
entails like we kind of walked in with like a
head full of like we know how to research, and
we know a lot of stuff about gender and um
now we're going to kind of repackage it in in
new ways. Yeah. Part of the part of the building
(14:22):
up creative process has definitely been learning to package all
of that research and gumption and scrappiness into something listenable, UH,
that has an arc, that has a narrative that has,
you know, a couple of different acts, and it because
we are so lucky to be working with like radio
veterans and podcast veterans UM in our production team and
(14:44):
our editorial team, and UH, they've definitely played a huge
role in helping us guide that so that we're not
just you know, throwing a bunch of research spaghetti at
the wall. And I would say that day to day
the UM, the really helpful thing about our work life
relationship is that we are both obviously interested in a
(15:09):
lot of the same things. We UM actually like often
show up at each other's houses wearing very similar outfits.
The men in our lives are kind of carbon copies
of each other. But when it comes to like workflow
and tasks, we naturally gravitate toward different things, different but
(15:30):
complimentary things. UM. And that's been a really helpful thing
to to discover and kind of like delegate naturally between
us so that we're not both just like trying to
do the same thing at the same time. Awesome, and
I imagine that must be helpful in terms of your
company writ large, so One of my favorite parts of
(15:51):
you launching the un lady Like brand are your newsletters.
Can you tell us all the different pieces that go
into how you envision on lady Like really supporting women
and girls and providing the kind of content as one
might call it in our industry, or information that you
might want to get out into the world. Like. There's
lots of forms that you're taking with that, correct, right,
(16:13):
And I think one of our main overarching approaches is
that we want to create things and put things out
in the world that can help stave off hopelessness and exhaustion.
I I think it's so easy. It's so easy, Emily,
you know, you talk about burnout. It's so easy to
feel like, oh my god, like I've been through the Ringer,
things are terrible. What can I even do? So we
(16:36):
don't want to just create a bunch of stuff that's
telling you how terrible it is. It's telling you that
there's sexists and racists in the world. We want to
contextualize that information and then shore it up with some
good news and some inspirational stuff and some actual steps
that you can take. So that's sort of like the
guiding force around all the stuff we create, and a big,
(16:58):
a big focus with the new this letter in particular
is there's a section actually good news for all those
reasons that Caroline stated, which was also just like selfishly
a little bit of self preservation of like I just
I don't want to read about Trump anymore today, but
also wanting to make sure that we are keeping an
eye on things happening with women and girls outside of
(17:20):
our own backyards and on a global scale. Um, and
we can always do better with that, but trying to
like showcase the work of women who don't look like
us and keep intersectionality at the forefront as much as
we can. I think that's so important. And just like
you were saying, it's so important to not feel like
you're just throwing a lot of bad news at people
(17:43):
and overwhelming them, because then they just shut down and
they think there's nothing I can do. We're all gonna die.
Everything is awful. And why even bother why I think
out of bed right, like if you just give people
so much bad news, they almost sort of can't function.
And but I was working at Planned Parenthood. We in
in our online newsletters usually it was an entire newsletter
(18:04):
of all this awful stuff. But we always had a
section called getting us Through, So it doesn't matter if
it's just a cute baby in a sweatshirt or like
a dog with like it could be the dumbest thing.
But if it's something positive, that's this is what's getting
me through all this bad news. Even just ending on
that can be really really powerful, yeah, and actionable. That's
always been super important to me. It's like one thing
(18:25):
to pepper in all the real news with a cute
animals being bros kind of gift or like unlikely friendships,
which is the right, you know, but but being able
to say concretely remember on the end of the year episode,
we one of the things that our listeners responded to
the most was our advice to save your elected officials
(18:47):
numbers in your cell phones, just to make it easier
to take action all year round. For me, I'm always
focused on, Okay, what can I do with this information
to have a real practical, tactical impact in what's happening
in the world, and also make it easy, like don't
make me work too hard, but make it make it impactful,
make it resourceful, and make it an opportunity to to
(19:09):
act on our shared values. So I really love hearing
that that's that's the direction you're taking us in. Yeah,
totally um. And it could be as simple as like
if we write a blurb in the newsletter about something,
just tacking on a little thing at the end, it's like, hey,
if you want to learn more and donate, go here.
Because I know when I'm consuming online media it's so
easy to get so lazy and just be like, oh,
(19:31):
there's that terrible thing again. But if you if you
force feed me, you know, spoon feed me, the the
ability to actually help or do something actionable, I'm more
likely to do it. So what can you tell us
about the book? Because when you all left stuff, I've
never told you you made the big announcement that you
were having a book baby, and I know things are
(19:54):
still a little under wraps about that, so you can't
tell us too much about it. But is there anything
you can share for the Aspire authors who might be
listening to this about what the co authorship process was
like for you or anything else we can expect to
hear on the unladylike book front. It was very intense.
I've actually talked to this is to put listeners minds
(20:14):
at ease. Like I've actually talked to other writers and
creators and um, I have a novelist family friend who's
turned out a couple of amazing books, and they all
pretty much say the same thing, which is like, you'll
love creating and you'll feel driven to write, but in
the moment, it feels like the hardest, grossest, worst thing
(20:34):
in the world. Um. And so that's kind of where
we were of like, we love what we're doing and
we can't wait to share this with people, and we
love the research, but it's the it is the actual
like book birthing process that is so just like, oh
my god, please, I'm going to run away. Yeah. I
don't know anyone who's written a book who's like I
just love the writing process. Our our editor even even
(20:58):
consult as a couple of times of like, no, really,
this sucks, like this, this is not the fun part.
I gotta say, though, in the throes of all of
the manuscripting it was super arduous, as it should be.
I mean, you're writing a book, um, but afterwards it
does feel so good. And the fact that we were
really passionate and still are obviously really passionate about the
(21:21):
subject matter kept us going. It also again like helps
that we were fueled post election to write this guide
to smashing the patriarchy and claiming your space because it
feels more necessary than ever before. Um, so yeah, it was.
It was a wild process, and Caroline and I literally
(21:43):
like split the manuscript into and went our separate ways
and did our research kind of like we would do
with podcast prep, of like oh, let's pick a topic
and go and read and then we'll come back and share. Um.
And that was that was an interesting kind of way
for us to also learn what each other gravitates towards
(22:03):
in our respective work processes too. I mean, seventeen was
just a huge, huge year of learning that I'm glad
behind me, but also it was invaluable. Wasn't there a
Kardashian quote like a year of many life lessons? That
was a kylie. It seems like everyone is. That's the
(22:24):
year of people realizing things, realizing I mean, honestly kind
of true. Let's talk more about how you're using your
new podcast to help everybody realize things. After this quick
break and we're back, and I'm so curious, can you
(22:52):
tell us what your premier episode of unladylike will be
all about. So we uh, we really been working on
it off and on for a year since it was
the pilot episode. And um, we decided on abortion because hey,
if we're gonna call ourselves and lady like, let's just
come out of the gate with a convo about abortion chat.
(23:15):
You know. Yeah, yeah, yeah, just a little fireside chat,
you know. Um and uh And specifically we're focusing in
on the money aspect of how people actually pay for abortions,
how much they cost, which is just like such a
maze that we didn't realize was even there. Um, And
(23:37):
we learned a lot, and we had we had no
desire to talk about like the arguments for and against abortion.
We had no desire to discuss the handwringing and the
ethics and the morality and and you know any any
of that. Yeah, because it's like, yo, abortion is legal
one yeah exactly, so like let's not give any of
(24:00):
that any space in our brains. It's legal. People get them,
but they get them in different ways. How do they
pay for them and how much do they cost? Because
we also realized like, oh, hey, we're a pair of
women who are super pro choice. We're in our thirties.
We're not exactly sure how much abortion costs. And the
more we talked to women, like everyone seemed to have
(24:21):
a story of like a lot of times it was like, well, yeah,
I had to be I I remember that because I
was late on rent that month, because I had to
pay for the abortion, because a lot of times it's
paid out of pocket. And then of course, like bridget
I'm sure you know, well, like all of the restrictions
that ultimately just make it more and more and more expensive. Um,
(24:44):
so it's it's really uh startling how abortion is kind
of a luxury procedure in this country. So yeah, that
was that's our pilot. And we brought a little clip
for y'all if you want, if you want to sneak peak,
we love that. Well. I got pregnant the classy way
on the floor of an Amtrak train in the handicapped bathroom.
(25:09):
And I proposed this, if you are having sex on
the floor of an Amtrak train in a handicapped bathroom,
maybe you're not ready to be a mother. I was twenty.
Most people would consider that Unladylike I just say, I'm
a good time. I'm a fun person. Trail was so
not ready to have a kid. But thankfully she had
(25:30):
like basically the ultimate connection in this situation. My mother
super She's the best woman in the world. She's a nurse,
nurses and squeezes people in the world, and you know,
being raised by a nurse, I knew of that. I
could tell her. I was like, Hey, I'm pregnant, and
the next words out of her mouth were what do
you want to do? And that that choice that she
(25:52):
gave me. Immediately, I just breathed a huge sigh of relief,
like waiting the ex Heil Terry McMillan and Style just
got it all out and and I was like, wow, okay,
so I decided to have the abortion. Yeah, this is
just the start for joy Al. Her mom did even more.
(26:13):
She set everything up with a doctor friend to handle
the procedure pro bono. She got a pro bono a Bobo.
The pro bono Abobos is my new dream band. Thank you,
You're welcome. But hold up now. So what you're telling me, though,
is that Joel's mom hooked her up with I'm saying
this in all caps listeners, a free abortion on demand,
(26:37):
and she didn't have to go to an abortion clinic.
Her appointment was in a generic medical office building, so
that meant that when she showed up, there wouldn't be
any protesters. You know, there were no people waving signs,
nothing like that. Trial might as well have been going
to the dentist. It was a medical office building. I
walked in, go up. It's really nice, you know, nice
(26:58):
waiting room, very quiet it. I think I might have
been the only person there. He might have opened just
for me. I'm not sure. Um going, and in the
room there was an anesthesiologist and my doctor. So then
the next thing I knew, I woke up and and
I had, like, I don't know, apple juice and Graham
(27:20):
crackers or something. My other friends have said. You don't
get put to sleep regularly. I mean, getting anesthesia is
a luxury. You don't get put to sleep for an
abortion because the procedure is very very quick, and they
have to you know, be awake in feeling that. You've
got to feel the vacuum. I didn't have to feel that.
(27:41):
And to quickly clarify, the vacuum that Joyell's referencing is
the vacuum aspiration abortion, also known as the surgical abortion,
which is super common, super safe, and joy l was
under general anesthesia for it, so I know that's just
extra extra privilege on top privileged. I just got to
(28:01):
wake up. I didn't see a bill it was amazing.
So this might have been the first time I've ever
heard someone described their abortion as amazing. Yeah, me too.
But Caroline, let's be real. If people have a haunting
experience of abortion, there's a good chance that had nothing
to do with the emotional, religious, or whatever other pressures
(28:23):
women experience, and more to do with the money. Wow.
As the daughter of a nurse, first of all, shout
out to everything that she just said about having a
nurse mama, because that is a privilege unlike anything other.
And you know what I'm talking about. Yeah, my mom
is a doctor. She's a pediatrician, beloved in our town.
My mom is the kind of doctor that when she
(28:45):
walks down the street, people run out of shops to
give her hugs. So I get it. I get the
vibe of having a really strong mama bear that is
involved in the medical community. Also, nurses have that sort
of don't mess with me vibe where don't come for
their kids, don't off with their kid like you know,
want to mess with a nurse. And if there was
anyone who I'd want to like walk me through this
(29:05):
and support me through that, it will be a mom
who is a medical professional. So I definitely identify with that. Yeah,
And it's such an important privilege to point out of
how rare this is, Like if you don't have a
family member who can get you a medical hook up,
this is a huge obstacle in terms of access. So
how can our listeners tune in for the premiere? I'm
sure we want to hear the rest of that episode
(29:26):
and where you take it from there? You can find
us on Apple Podcasts just search Unladylike. You can also
find us on Stitcher or anywhere you like to listen
to your podcast. UM. You can also head over to
our website Unladylike dot c O slash podcast where you
can get even more details and listen to the trailer UM,
(29:48):
and you can find us everywhere on social at unlady
Like Media Awesome. So where are you hoping to take
unlady Like next? You've got your premiere coming out this week?
What are your wildest ambitions for getting unlady going to Hollywood?
Speaking personally, I don't want to speak for your ambition, Caroline,
would be it from me. Uh, one of my wildest
(30:10):
ambitions for the show is to share the stories that
you didn't know that you needed to hear and to
um to really break ground in the women's podcasting realm
because there are obviously so many amazing like women focused
and gender and feminism focus podcasts out there, but there's
(30:32):
still so much more room for us to explore and
so many more stories out there to be told. And
I'm just pumped to go talk to people. Yeah, I'm
I'm so ready to create like an army of action
minded people humans in general who sent us sentient human beings.
(30:52):
Although if robots want to join us, they can just
please don't kill it. But no, I I really I
I you know, I loved that. Was one of my
favorite parts of participating in Smenty was having that community
and being able to talk to people and hear their
stories like what a privilege talk about privilege right, like
to be able to to hear from people who have
(31:13):
lived the stuff that you've only researched and um, so
I hope to build up our own community with unladylike
as well and then use that underlying principle of anger
and action to move forward together. And I just really
hope that listeners derive a sense of empowerment. To use
(31:38):
a very overused, overused term, but to your point earlier
Emily about UM making things actionable. UM, hopefully like by
hearing women like living their lives and and doing the
damn thing whether people want them to or not, can
give people a sense of hope and a sense that, hey,
(31:59):
you can at one foot in front of the other two.
We're all in this together, and let's get on lady like.
We'll sign us up for the unladylike angry mob of women.
We will be right there with you on the front lines.
And listeners, we want to hear from you what does
it mean to be unladylike? In and Kristen and Caroline,
thanks so much for coming back to your old girl's
(32:21):
stomping grounds to hang out with us on the pod. Yeah,
thanks so much for having us. We fun talking. We
appreciate it so much. You can find us on Instagram
at stuff mom Ever Told You, on Twitter at mom
Stuff Podcast, and as always, we love reading your emails
at mom stuff at how stuff works dot com.
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