What happens at the gynecologist's office?

At what age should a woman first go to the gynecologist? Do women prefer female gynecologists? Join Caroline and Cristen as they explain the Stuff Mom Never Told You about OB-GYN visits.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:03):
Welcome to Stuff Mom Never Told You. From how Stuff
Works dot Com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm
Kristen and I'm Caroline. And this episode about what happens
if the guy Ina Collegist Office is coming courtesy of
listener requests. And it's one too that I'm surprised that

(00:24):
we haven't talked about before, because if you know, this
entire podcast is built on the premise of talking about
lady things. And can you get more vaginal than the
Guyna Collegist Office? I submit that you cannot. You can't
really get much more vaginal than that. And also I
feel like what happens at the gyn of Colleges office

(00:47):
is something that at some point everybody kind of wonders
what happens. I remember reading when I was in my
early teens, reading about those stories in like seventeen magazine
or Why m or Jane in all those magazines that
no longer exists about you know what to expect, because
it was terrifying the prospect of going into that office

(01:09):
and having someone examined. Honestly, the worst part is the
finger pricking where they test your your blood, your iron level,
and and the stirrups I mean, we can get into
all the stirrups. We'll get into the we will get
into the stirrups literally, figuratively, figuratively. And I'll go ahead
and say spoiler alert. Things are not as scary as

(01:32):
they might seem, you know. So also for for fellow
listeners out there, and by fellow I am referring to
two men, don't be scared. Keep on, keep on listen.
Let's go to the kind of colleges, shall we. Let's go,
but let's Caroline. You unearthed some gynecological history that has
a tie in to your family. Yeah, this is this

(01:53):
is nuts. When I was reading this, I was like,
you know, it's one of those things where you you,
you you look around for someone to be like, this
is so cool. There's no one here to tell Okay. Well,
so then I email Kristen and then it was better.
But so, there's a lot of interesting history about gynecology.
It did not just spring up overnight out of nowhere.
This is coming from the post Graduate Medical Journal in

(02:15):
two thousand two, and they're talking about the development of obstetrics,
which is the medical care of pregnant woman, and how
it was originally the responsibility of midwives. So it was
not this big medical thing necessarily. It wasn't like lords
and ladies went to the doctor's office, you know, for
those prenatal visits or anything. But in the seventeenth century,

(02:35):
European physicians began to attend on royal deliveries, and so
the practice grew and eventually trickled down to the middle classes.
But one thing about the seventeenth century attending physicians and
whatnot is that they used a tool known as obstetric
four steps, and and doctors still use those there, you know,
those things that like like just get the baby out,

(02:58):
like the tongs. Yeah, like the tong like, well you're
chicken off, and then you flip it over so I
can brown on the other side. Yeah. Well, obstetric force
ups were apparently developed, and if anybody out there knows more,
please please tell us. But they were developed by a
particular family. You are beaming right now, I know. Well,
I am such, I am such a genealogy nerd, Like

(03:21):
I have traced my family on all sides, like so
far back back to England, and and one thing that
I had taken note of is the Chamberlain family. So
I I chamberlain's are are part of my people. And
a lot of them came from France to England. They
were huganized, they got out of France, came to England
and started working for the royal family. Turns out those

(03:43):
are the people who developed the freaking obstetric force ups
and they kept it like a family secret for the
better part of a century. So if you were a
royal lady, you know, giving birth, and you needed the
assistance of some force ups, some baby tongs, chances are
it was going to be a chamberlain. And the thing
is they want to keep it such a secret that
a lot of times they would do it under a sheet.

(04:03):
Why do you think they wanted to keep it such
a secret because it had to deal with an instrument
that went inside of a vagina. I don't know, I
don't know. It seemed like the way that they was written,
it seemed more like it was just like a trade secret,
Like magically, the baby is here, Now, how did we
do it? The stork just popped up in here? The
old chamberlain forceps. So yeah, it's just that's my that's

(04:25):
my total uh gynecological nerd oubt moment. I like it kinnacological, genealogical,
magical mystery tour. I need a T shirt with that
on it. So anyway, moving forward, other things happened. By
the early nineteenth century of stetrics was established as a
recognized medical discipline and mid whiffery. That's right, folks, mid

(04:49):
whiffery had become a compulsory subject in Britain. Yeah. Now
when it comes to gynecology more as we know it,
we got to touch on for a second a fellow
named Jay Mary and Sims who was known as the
father of modern gynecology thanks to his successful operating technique
that he developed for a vesico vaginal fistula um. Basically,

(05:12):
it's a childbirth complication where a hole develops between the
bladder and the vagina which leads to urinarian continents and
a lot of other problems, and he figured out how
to how to fix that. But Jay Mary and Simms,
although when he died he was hailed, you know, as
his father to modern gynecology, but history has not shed

(05:32):
such a favorable light on Jay Mary and Sims because
one of the reasons why he was able to develop
this operating technique was because between late eighteen forty five.
In the summer of eighteen forty nine, he carried out
repeated operations on black slave women. Yeah, and did did

(05:55):
it without anesthesia. Yeah. This was happening in Montgomery, Alabama.
And as you can imagine that kind of surgery without anesthesia,
as you say, uh not not very uh not very pleasant.
And it wasn't just like he operated on them once
or twice. One woman that he was operating on had
both messico and recto vaginal fistula. She underwent thirty operations

(06:19):
before Simms was able to surgically close the holes. Yeah,
and so um. In contemporary times, you know, medical historians
don't think so highly of Jay Mary and Sims. Other
people have still come to his events to say, oh,
but he's still done all of this for you know,
maybe these advances for modern gynecology. Um. But yeah, I

(06:42):
feel like this is one I would I would like
to for stuff he missed in history class too, to
maybe to a podcast on Jay Mary and Sims, because
I would like to know more about him. Yeah, let's
take a big leap frog in a history to to
today's Gyna Claude Coal Office. I know that we're there's
there's a lot of history that we're brushing over, but

(07:04):
we want to get to and really focus on in
this episode what happens in the gynecological office? What did
those Chamberlain forces do Caroline. But before we get to
that question, the first question to tackle is when should
this start happening? When should young women first go to

(07:26):
the guyo um? Basically within three years of sexual activity.
This is according to go ask Alice uh of course,
that sexual activity is not necessarily vaginal intercourse or at
age twenty one, whichever comes first, and the American College
of Obstetricians and Gynecologists recommends earlier between thirteen and fifteen. Yeah,

(07:47):
and uh ACOG the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists
recommends that going at such a young age not necessarily
because they are sexually active, but instead to start building
a doctor patient rapport because, as you can imagine, when
it comes to discussing your vagina, it helps to have

(08:09):
a relationship with with someone because they can you know,
the first time you see even now, the first time
you see a doctor and you have to talk about
your vagina, you know, it can be a little awkward
in like, hello, doctor, this is my vagina. Hello, welcome
introduction vagina doctor doctor hands. Um. I actually I went

(08:31):
to the kind of cologist for the first time when
I was seventeen or eighteen. My mother had said, Um,
I feel like I've told the story before, but once
retell it because it's every about it. So anyway, UM, yeah,
my mom had said, you know, when you think you
are ready to have sex and you want to go
on birth control, tell me and I won't ask any questions.
I will just take you to the kind of cologist Sally.

(08:53):
That sounds great right in theory on favor, it sounds
fantastic when you actually tell Sally. Okay, Mom, I think
I think you know it's time that I go to
the lady doctor. Oh. I mean there were tears. They're
like red in the face, like are you sure? I mean,
oh my god, I just can't. I can't believe are

(09:14):
you are you serious? A lot of that. I mean,
she took me and it was no problem and it
was not awkward, and it was good that my mother
like put that out there so that I didn't have
to feel like, you know, how do I bring it
up to my mother? Like, it's good that she put
it on the table to begin with. But still it
was a lot of like me sitting there, like are
you done yet? Can we just go? Well? I was.

(09:34):
I was a little fortunate in that I went around
the same time, so I think I was eighteen, and
my doctor was able. She was a GP and the
general practitioner, but she was able to to do gynecological
stuff as well. So I've been going to her for
a little while and was finally like, doctor, I'd like

(09:55):
to make a vagina appointment. And it was no big
deal because I already you know, I knew her and
she was she was a great doctor and made me
feel very comfortable. Um So, but let's let's go through
the stuff. Now we know around what ages it is
recommended to happen, but but what about what actually happens.

(10:17):
What can people expect aside from feeling nervous, because it
is perfectly normal to feel nervous about that first visit. Yeah,
I mean, you're gonna be in You're gonna be in
a little bit of a hospital gown type situation when
you're in the exam room. But they're gonna ask you
questions just like any doctor would about your family and
personal medical history. So you've got to answer questions about,

(10:37):
you know, to certain conditions run in your family. Basically,
they're gonna ask you questions about your period, you know,
your minstrel cycle, and sexual activities that you may or
may not be having. You know, if you have questions too. Yeah,
and the thing about the questions about sexual activity, it
is so important to be honest with your guynecologists. And
that comes down to things like, if you're not using condoms,

(11:00):
go ahead and tell your doctor you haven't been using condoms,
If you have cheated on a partner, if you have
suspicions that your partner has cheated on you, et cetera.
All of these things, number of partners, birth control methods
that you've tried, age of becoming sexually active. The doctor
is not there to judge you for anything that you
have done, and if you do feel slug shamed by

(11:23):
your doctor, find a new doctor. Um, But it's crucial
to to be to be honest because those kinds of
that kind of information can help guide the doctor into
recommending kinds of birth control that you might need, or
tests like STD panels that might be wise for you
to get. Yeah, exactly, well, there all there will also
be examinations of the breast that they'll listen to your

(11:45):
lungs and heart. They'll check your blood pressure and weight
and also check your abdomen and if if you so desire,
s t I screenings and evaluation for contraception. If you
haven't had those discussions yet, Yeah, and um at age
twenty one, it's recommended that women start getting PAP smears
and what happens with the pas smear? Because I remember

(12:07):
too hearing about pap smears and thinking why is it
called a smear? That sounds horrible? And I think I
had overheard my mom talk about how it was uncomfortable,
so I was just dreading it. But passers are really
not as bad as they might seem. Basically, what happens

(12:27):
here we go, folks. What happens is the doctor will
insert a speculum into the vagina, and the speculum simply
holds the I'm using hand gestures right now in the
studio because I talked with my hands. Um and certain
speculum into the vagina which holds the vaginal walls apart.

(12:47):
That allows the doctor to see into the service to
to look at the cervis and then take specimens of
said cervix using swabs, and those cervis swabs or cervical swabs,
I should say, are imp important to check for things
like abnormal cell growth, screening for cervical cancer, and just

(13:10):
looking at the the that internal and external exam is
also checking for lesions, inflammation, unusual discharge, just making sure
all those parts are healthy. Yeah, I mean, it's not
the most comfortable thing in the world. The speculum is cold.
Speculum is cold. Speculum is cold, but it shouldn't be

(13:30):
outright painful. And if it is, you should definitely tell
your doctor. And and and relax. I mean it helps
to breathe, Just breathe, relax because you know they're not
there to hurt you, right, everybody's there to help you,
So just relax. And Now, this might not happen during
your first kynecological visit, especially if you are younger and
if you aren't yet sexually active. Um. But it's also

(13:51):
very common for the doctor to perform a pelvic exam
unless you are on you're having abnormal bleeding or severe pain. Um.
But with the pelvic exam, things do get a little
more personal because this time the doctor will actually insert
their gloved fingers into the vagina too, and and press

(14:12):
down on the outside of the abdomen to feel around
and make sure that everything is as it should be
as well. Yeah, Now, during during your visit, especially if
it's your first time going to this doctor, ask ask questions.
Don't don't be afraid to speak up, to tell your
doctor your concerns and and get some answers to what

(14:32):
you're thinking about. You know, things like contraception, irregular periods, STDs,
vaccines like I got my HPV vaccine at my gynecologist office. Um.
And also if you're having any aches or pains that
you can't explain or that are scaring you or they
just don't seem normal. And if it is your first
time at the gynecologists, asked the doctor before he or

(14:55):
she gets started, asked the doctor to explain what is
about to happen and why they're doing. And the doctor
will talk you through the public exam, can talk you
through paps, mirrors, UM. And that might also aid in
relaxing you and kind of keeping your mind off of
any discomfort that might be happening. But we're talking about

(15:17):
twenty minutes all told from intake two exams and everything.
It really doesn't take that long at all to get
a gynecological exam. And I feel like the you know,
the reputation of going to the guy knows that you're
going to be in in for a lot of discomfort
and awkward pain. And I don't I don't think that's
really the case. No, I mean, but I also, I

(15:39):
mean that does depend on your doctor too, like how
comfortable you are, you know, you wanna find a doctor
that you mesh well with who answers your questions, doesn't
make you feel rushed because I know my gynecologist, she's
actually been on like CNN and stuff like she's she's
a higher up gynecologist, lady person, and but she still
takes the time to answer, and it's you know, it's

(15:59):
not like she's important to do her job. So yeah,
make sure that you do find a doctor you're comfortable
with and and don't feel bad. You know, if you're
a teen living at home, to speak up and tell
your parents like, no, I'm not comfortable with that, right,
And speaking of teens living at home especially, there might
be questions about doctor patient confidentiality. If say you are

(16:22):
still living with your parents, and you are sexually active,
or you think about becoming sexually active, Maybe you want
to get on birth control, maybe you want to talk
to your doctor about it, if you are nervous that
the doctor will then turn around and tell your mom.
What just you know what, what your concerns are, what
your sexual concerns are. Here's some more information on that confidentiality. Yeah,

(16:45):
planned parenthood in particular. Uh, let's emphasize is that most
healthcare providers do keep their clients information confidential, but some
providers may not be able to guarantee complete confidentiality. So
it can't hurt to ask, like, is this going to
stay between us? Just? I mean, if for nothing else
than peace of mind. Yeah. And and for a little

(17:07):
more detail on especially um visits with teenagers, teenage patients
and their parents. This is coming from Dr Mark la Flower,
who's the chief of the Division of Gynecology and the
co director of the Center for Young Women's Health at
Children's Hospital Boston, and he says that in all of
their reproductive healthcare visits, we like to meet with the

(17:28):
parents or guardians and the young woman at the same time.
Then we like to meet with a teenager alone. To
hear her concerns and get together again with her parents
at the end of the visit for summarization and to
make a health plan. Ideally, we establish a confidential relationship
with limits that are clear to both the teen and
her parents. We want to let the young woman know
that what she discusses with her gynecologists can be confidential

(17:51):
if she chooses it to be. And there's a two
thousand ten study that we found in the Contraception Journal
that was looking at whether or not H O. B.
G y ns would disclose to parents that their seventeen
year old and this was a fictional seventeen year old
freshman in college wanted birth control pills, And so they
surveyed all of these ob GYNs and found that most

(18:14):
ob GYNs will provide adolescence with contraceptives without notifying their parents.
So that is that's a good thing for teens to
keep in mind if they are nervous about the first
visit that if they disclose something that the doctor will
disclose it then to their parents. That is generally not
the case. I think a lot of times when it
comes to the doctor disclosing to parents, it's in cases

(18:37):
of the child being in direct harm. And they also
looked at a couple of other factors. Of the doctors
they surveyed said that they would encourage the teen to
involve her parents. So while most, if you know, while
most would provide those contraceptives for the team, a big
chunk would say, okay, well we'll give you this, but

(18:59):
you know, maybe you should bring your parents into the fold.
Slightly more fift would advise abstinence until she's older. So
but still contraceptives are being contraceptives are being provided. They're
just saying, hey, maybe you should think about doing X,
Y Z, yeah, because best case scenario, there's a healthy
relationship between the parent and the kid, kind of the

(19:19):
same way Caroline, that you had with your mom, where
it was an open door policy of saying, hey, you
know what, if you want to do this, if you
feel needed to do this, come and tell me. I
won't judge. You will go to the doctor together and
everything will be fine. Um. And we would encourage, you know,
teens to to talk to their parents regardians about that
kind of stuff, if that's possible. But it is also
good to know that options are available um from doctors directly.

(19:43):
Uh So when it comes though to selecting a gynecologist. Um.
One thing I remember talking to my mom about was
telling her that I wanted a female gynecologist specifically because
she went to a male gynecologist and um, not only
was he the father of a childhood friend of mine.

(20:05):
So it's like, I just really don't want that doctor
looking at my vagina. That would just be too awkward. Um.
But I I specifically wanted a female because I figured
that I would be more comfortable with that. And that's
been attributed. That idea that women prefer female kinnecologists is
not being attributed with a trend of fewer men going

(20:25):
into gynecology. Yeah, there's actually been been lawsuits and a
lot of people are upset saying that they are men,
saying that they have been discouraged from pursuing gynecology as
a specialty. Well, the fascinating thing is, if you look
at the statistics, female kynecologists haven't even been around in
doctor's offices all that long. This is also coming from

(20:46):
the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists. In nineteen seventy
only seven point one percent of O B g U
I n's were women, But then in two thousand nine,
that number jumped to forty six point nine percent. And
now when you look residency programs, it is far and
away led by women looking to get into oh B

(21:07):
g IM practices. Yeah, and this is coming from a
New York Times article from two thousand one who quoted
Dr John Musich, who was at the time the chairman
of the Council and Resident Education in Obstetrics, Obstetrics and Gynecology.
There it is. He said, it's a huge issue for
male medical students. We can't force patients to see a
particular gender. And there are women who feel that women

(21:28):
are more sensitive as physicians to female complaints than men
might be. And so, I mean, whether that's true or not,
whether a woman is more sensitive to gynecological needs than
a male doctor is I mean, you can't change people's
feelings or perceptions. I also wanted to get to a
female gynecologist, and I ended up going to my mother's, Like,

(21:49):
so she sees both of us, and you know, we
know all the nurses and I feel comfortable calling them
and talking to them about any issues I have. But
that's I mean, that's just me. One of my very
good friends strongly prefers and ale gynecologists. Yeah, and that
was the thing that we wanted to find was whether
or not statistics bear out that idea that women will
overwhelmingly prefer female gynecologists and it ain't necessarily so. Um.

(22:14):
This was coming from the Journal of American Osteopathic Association
from two thousand five where they went around to thirteen
O B G I N waiting rooms in Connecticut. So
maybe this is just a Connecticut thing. It could be,
but they found that a majority of the patients they
talked to sixties six point six percent had no gender

(22:35):
bias when selecting an O B G y N, and
an even larger majority, over eight percent, felt that physician
gender did not influence the quality of care. Yeah. And
this is backed up also the not having a strong
gender preference in two thousand two article in Obstetrics and
Gynecology that found that the more important factors were really

(22:57):
interpersonal and communication style and tech nickel expertise. So if
you feel like you're being listened to and if your
doctor knows what he or she is talking about, that's
more important than whether it's a man or a woman. Yeah.
And I think that when I moved to Atlanta, where
Health at Work dot Com is located. Um, I needed
to find a new doctor, and I wasn't so much

(23:18):
concerned about finding a male or female doctor, but one
that came highly recommended from people that I knew, and
that happened to be a woman, and she was fantastic. So, UM,
I think that. Yeah, and in this regard a lot
of times, uh you know, maybe that kind of gender biases,
it does swing toward women, but it's not as overwhelming

(23:39):
as it might seem in terms of women just demanding
women only kynacologists. Although I will say that my kynecology
office is it's a vaginal haven of pink and estrogen,
just clouds floating around. It's incredible. I've they all. I've
seen like men in there every now and then, like
if they come in with their their wives. Um, but

(24:02):
there are you know, there aren't any any male doctors
at all in the practice. In the walls are literally pink.
You know, women only have female babies and women and
women only like pink. Yeah, obviously, UM, but I mean
I thought the discrimination issue that that people have raised
was interesting. UM. Dr Aaron Tracy, who's the chairwoman of

(24:25):
ACOG junior fellow Advisory Council said that at some medical schools,
male medical students are being discouraged from going into O
B G Y in it really is reverse discrimination. We
don't want this to be a specialty just for women.
And so there's you know, there's this scrumbling about our
men being told like don't do this, or are they

(24:46):
just being told like maybe you would make more money
elsewhere because it has been harder for male ob GYNs too,
fine practices that that wants them, because there are some
practices that are exclusive of the hiring for women. Yeah,
And and in this article that we were reading like it,
it talks a lot about how people have noticed that

(25:06):
the minute they hire a a woman gynecologist on the team,
she is just her schedules packed immediately, it's it's taken up.
And so one man who had had brought a lawsuit
was saying, like, I was fired because of gender discrimination,
when his bosses were saying, well, it really had more
to do that you weren't bringing in the books whereas
our our female doctors were. Yeah, I'd be curious to

(25:31):
hear from any ob GYNs listening or nurse practitioners who
work in ob g I in offices as to whether
or not that does seem to be the case. Um So,
I hope that this has offered though a decent overview
of what to expect at the O B g U
I N. We've talked about selecting doctors, talked about what happened,

(25:54):
We've talked about the old speculum, the pelvic exam. Uh
so let's talk about us and things on a bit
of a lighter note, and that is the fact that sometimes,
especially because of the nature of the gynecologist office and
by the nature of it I do mean being very
vaginally focused, funny things can happen sometimes. Yeah, like, oh,

(26:19):
I don't know, your feet are up in the stirrups
and you're you're gonnacologist offers to come on your podcast
and talk. Did that happen to you? It's like, well,
maybe we don't really have that kind of show, but
thank you if you could just get back down in
there so you got an interview pitch while someone was
examining your cervix. It's true. Oh man, the things that

(26:43):
happened to to podcasters, it's amazing. Um. Yeah, there was
an article that was originally published on Radar. This is
by Dorry Schaffer, and they were asking women to right
in about the odd things that kind of collogists had
told them and just let's just throw out a couple

(27:04):
such as Sarah from Brooklyn apparently said, my gynecologist recently
told me that I have an adorable uterus. What what
does that mean? I want to know what? Well? I
mean what it's polka dotted, it has it wears a
peter Pan collar. It makes cupcakes. Yeah. Similarly, Kate reported

(27:27):
to Radar that I once said a female doctor tell
me my cervix was cute. Not sure what that means,
but I took it as a compliment. I would too, Yeah,
I mean they would know, wouldn't they. Yeah, I mean
whether you have a cute service or one that just
has a good personality. I think the most uncomfortable thing
that's ever happened to me in the gynecologist office is

(27:47):
not something that someone said, but when the doctor screamed.
Because this was a new doctor. It was the first
time I was going to this doctor. And you know,
you put your feet in the stirrups and then you
have to scoot down, and that's that's one of the
most awkward parts now. Yeah, because she's like, okay, you know,
come on, scoot down. I was like a scoot at bit,

(28:09):
like no, no, keep scooting, and I was like, okay,
I'll keep scooting, and she's like, no, keep and I
was like all right, I'm coming. And then I keep
skotting and she goes, whoa, whoa too close. Oh I
am sorry, my vagina stood closed your face now. And

(28:30):
then I had to scoot back. You know, it's embarrassing
having to scoot back the exam table. It's kind of
a horror script. I know I never went back. I
probably wouldn't have either. Yeah. I did not appreciate that
bedside manner. Now I'm blushing because I'm talking about my vagina.
Oh my god, I can't believe that. Why would a

(28:51):
doctor say that, I thought, well, I mean, I don't know.
Some doctors are just more abrupt than others. Yeah, so
but where the scoot? Yeah, careful scoot. The scoot is
awkward because you're like, I naturally kind of don't want
my vagina. You know, when I'm in stirrups in a
very cold room and a gown, I don't want to
scoot it. Where it's vulnerable, but you have to have

(29:11):
to scoot, but not too much. And with that thus
concludes our visit to the gynecollegees office. Next episode, we're
gonna do something on prostrate exams. It's like, although maybe
we should. Yeah what I mean, we don't have personal
stories about it. No, no turning and coughing for us,
all right, And with that, listeners, please write us about

(29:35):
awkward gynecology visits, anything that we didn't touch on, Any
lingering questions about what goes on to the gynecologists, um,
anything O, B, G, Y and related. Also, yeah, any
if there any dude gynecologists listening, we want to hear
from you as well. Mom. Stuff at Discovery dot com
is where you can send your emails. Yes, I have

(30:01):
here a letter from Caitlin in response to our food
porn episode Kristen. She says, as a sociology major in
undergrad I find this topic very interesting. However, this issue
of food as it relates to culture is not new.
Pierre Bordeaux Bordi bord find something a French name, a
French sociologist, wrote about food in French culture in the

(30:24):
nineteen seventies. He argued that our taste and food is
dictated to us by our class i e. Socio economic status.
We also express that status to others in the food
we eat or the food that tastes good to us.
Skipping over the philosophical route that this discussion could take,
do we like a particular food because it tastes good
or because we think it tastes good? Bordeau's work and

(30:47):
that which is followed gives us the opportunity to think
about why we make the choices that we do, and
then she says, just some food for thought. So thank you, Caitlin.
I've got an email here as well about our our
two parter on food and foodie culture from Charles. And Charles,

(31:07):
you did have a lot to say about foodie culture.
You know who you are, and I'm just gonna read
the first part of his email to that says, now,
between my interest and pinterest, my obsession with cats, and
the fact that I generally enjoy everything you guys do,
I feel a little masculated, but in a good way.
Thank you, Charles. And um, I'm gonna jump down to
when he's talking about food and foodie culture because Charles

(31:31):
is a Sux chef, so we're talking to someone who's
got some irons in the fire, and man, he's this
is a five page email. I'm not Charles. I hope
that you don't mind me outing you um as writing
an incredible email of great length. So here you go,
he writes. Folks concerned with the elitist nature of organic

(31:52):
slash arteasanal have bandied about much criticism of foodies. The
claim is that being a foodie isn't necessarily accessible to
the regular folks out there. But hasn't every cultural movement
started as the interests of a select privileged few. I mean,
people protesting in the occupy movement aren't typically on food
stamps or welfare, or if they are, they tend not
to have started that way. Nearly every revolution and culture

(32:14):
in politics has come out of the middle class. That's
not to say there's anything wrong with the privileged white
people standing for things, just so there's a lack of
self awareness about just how privileged most white people that
go to college and care about stuff actually are. That
being said, look at the course of food culture over
the last thirty years. Alice Waters has probably done more
to advance the cause of good, healthy food for all
than any single person until Michael Pollen and she's not

(32:35):
even a chef Jonathan Waxman and Jeremiah Tower where the
real chefs at Shapinice. As mentioned above, every aspect of
mainstream culture tends to be filtered through the subculture or hipster,
according to Norman Mailer's original definition of the word, as
the mainstream media jumps on any particular bandwagon, an old
Navy starts releasing off the wreck vintage t shirts, the
mainstream adopts a subculture, and hipsters move on to the

(32:57):
next fool thing. I don't mean to sound two tongue
in week or derogatory about any of this. The next
cool thing is not necessarily a bad thing as long
as the interest is not in cool for its own sake.
So not in AILI sauce for its own sake. That
was my own fit, its own ailiness, a holiness alide
sauce for its own ailitess. So thank you Charles and

(33:21):
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(33:43):
and medical history, you know where to find it. It's
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