Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hello, I'm Annie and I'm Bridget, and this is stuff
Mom never told you, and I have a very important
question for you. Bridget. Okay, hit me. What kind of
(00:25):
toys did you like playing with when you were growing up?
I love this question. Probably my favorite toy was Polly Pocket,
remember those. Yes. I liked anything involving an intricate and
elaborate world. So I liked dollhouses, I liked anything. I
was obsessed with miniatures. Um, I liked easy bake oven okay,
your standard, your standard girl toys. I liked games. I
(00:48):
liked them. I was obsessed this game called dream Phone.
Basically how this game works with it has a plastic
cell phone, and you get clues about who the guy
is who has a crush on you from this phone.
Sold be like, he's not wearing a hat, and then
you have to be like, well, he's not wearing a hat,
so it's not Joe, it's not Dan, and you have
to like guess who it is via the process of elimination.
(01:09):
So it's kind of like guess who know, only with
a romantic aspect. What I'm saying you now it sounds weird,
but you get it. Okay, Sure, I've never played that one,
but I would. I'll seek it out. What kind of
toys did you play with? Growing up? I loved my
little ponies and I had very looking back soap opera
(01:31):
storyline playing out where I had to lead ponies. One
was gold and one was silver. And the silver one
lived in a world of like legos and Lincoln logs,
and the gold one and um her whole crew. They
both had like their own set of ponies that lived
with them. She lived in um like hot wheels. Course,
(01:54):
hated each other, and they were always trying to undermine
what the other one was doing and overthrow there the society.
And looking back now that eventually the storyline reached a
point where it was revealed both of them were bad.
There was no good pony leader. And now I think
I must have at some point internalized some thoughts about
(02:16):
the two parties system. Oh that's deep, that's deep. Both
parties the same, Man, they're the same. I don't know,
it's just looking back, they already know who's gonna win.
You don't even have to vote, man, that was right,
bridget I was onto something with those my little ponies. Um,
but I also liked I inherited a lot of toys
(02:37):
from my brother, so I had a Drastic Park the
whole thing, and a Star Wars thing. Um. I loved
games as well, and I have a very funny story
about a Polly Pocket board game. Um. I was trying
to learn how to play the rule I was trying
to I was playing it by myself. Okay, bridget, let
me just get it out there. I was playing it
by myself to try to figure out the rules before
my friends came over. But I didn't realize that they
(02:59):
were already there and they were just watching me play this.
My favorite thing on this show is when you tell
really funny anecdotes about your childhood. It's like my very
favorite thing. I was horrified, and I tried to play
it off so cool, like, oh hey, just getting ready,
(03:20):
getting ready to play this polly Pocket. I was rehearsing
for a play yeah yeah, And no one bought it,
and the next day the rumors. Bridget the rumors. But
I'd also big, I'm playing outside. I loved playing outside.
All this to say, today we were talking about toys.
Toys are more important than you might think. For those
(03:43):
of you listening wondering to yourself. Why are they talking
about toys? UM. The imagine of playing kids use toys
for is really important to several things like UM creativity
and UM literacy, being able to see something from someone
(04:05):
else's point of view, being able to create these storylines
with these ponies that hate each other, and one of
them cuts off the other one's hair, and then the
other one throws fingernail polished on the other one, and
it was just a nightmare. Bridget Dramatic told you. I
told you, it got intense. And if you think about it, UM,
if we're putting kids into this box, because today we're
(04:29):
kind of talking about gendered toys and gendered marketing of
toys at an early age, then it can be important
if you think about why more women aren't in STEM
fields because the toys were marketing to them are saying, hey,
you want to be a princess, get married and baked
(04:50):
this cake for him. This is this is fun, right,
this is what you want. Meanwhile, boys are getting these
kind of engineering or building toys that UM studies have
shown toys like that UM increase your mental flexibility and
your engineering skills. So it's it's important. Toys are important.
(05:12):
UM and also we should say right at the front,
gender marketing is bad for everyone, not just for little
girls little boys, for everyone in between. It ignores a
lot of people. It ignores non binary folks. A lot
of people are left out of the conversation when you say, boy, girl,
check this box. Yeah, when you go to McDonald's and
they say do you want a happy meal for a
(05:33):
girl or a boy? That leaves out a whole bunch
of folks. And I think it's just not necessary. You know.
I once saw this meme floating around where it was
a like a flow chart of when you need to
get a gender toy. And the question first question is
do you operate this toy with your genitals? The answer
is no, it doesn't matter, answer is yes, it is
(05:53):
not a toy for children. It was like, you know,
the fact that they're gendered in the first place, it's
very strange. And I mentioned at the top of the
episodes that I loved easy bake ovens, and I love
to cook now and I loved I left playing within
the kitchen, you know, making messes with flour and all that.
Um So I loved easy bake oven But women are
not the only people who need to know how to cook.
(06:14):
Cooking is a fun skill for everybody. And if we say, oh,
kitchen play sets and easy bake ovens, those are for girls.
Those are not for little boys. What does that tell
a little boy? Who? Right? So, not only does it
erase a lot of folks, but it also gives boys
the message that this thing is for women and that
(06:35):
you don't need to do that. And it's like, yeah,
it could be stifling an entire creative aspiration that someone
has by telling them this is not for you. Right.
And one particular aspect we're gonna be talking about today
is action figures because budget summer blockbusters season is coming,
and um, it may surprise you or it probably won't.
(06:56):
But it surprised me um that big bunchet movies like
Star Wars and The Avengers often make more money from
merchandise and toys than from ticket sales. Wow, I didn't
know that. I did have a moment when I was
watching the last Star Wars where I kind of thought,
this is sort of a big commercial for like Star
Wars legos. Is it not that I didn't like it,
(07:18):
I just had a weird moment of realization. Perhaps, um,
in Warner Brothers made six point five billion with a
B from licensed sales of these big brand products like
Harry Potter in their case, UM and Disney four D
one billion dollars from licensed sales. And yeah, so toys
(07:44):
and the cell of them have become increasingly largely due
to movies and television tie ins. Um. They play a
role in creative decisions of what movies get made or
how to how to how to make the movie. Even
in the biggest toy property of the year was Star Wars,
(08:05):
and that franchise by itself sold seven hundred million dollars. Well,
that just goes to show you how important and how
impactful toy sales actually are when you think about movies.
I had no idea that toy sales with the thing
that was really generating all this money. Yeah I didn't either. Um.
And because toy sales are going up, and because these
(08:26):
marketing tie ins with movies and TV or playing such
a big role, more and more studios, movie studios or
production studios are making creative decisions based on what action
figures they think will sell and in their mind that
is not female action figures. Well, I'm just gonna ask
in their mind. What figures are they? There? Pretty much
(08:50):
your standard white, white male hero. Um. We see this
argument all the time, not just with toys. Studios don't
make action movies with women as the main character because
people don't buy tickets to those movies. I'm not true,
but that's an argument that you hear video games with
women as well. You don't sell kids, don't want female
(09:12):
action figures. Um, but this Scott is wondering, is that true? Well,
we've got the answer for you. Is it true? Um? No,
it is not true, but it is more complicated than perhaps,
just know that it is not true. Over the past
few years, there have been several high profile cases of
(09:34):
companies leaving out female action figures. You might remember them
by their hashtags. You've got hashtag Where's Ray? In response
to the action figures released or not released for Star
Wars The Force Awakens. Despite being the most obvious main character,
Ray was not included in a lot of toys and merchandizing,
(09:55):
and she was missing from a box set that included
Finn Poe, Chewbacca, random Stormtrooper, and a random time fighter.
More important than right, they don't even get I mean
these random throwaway characters get top billing over arguably the
main character. That's right, it doesn't even make any sense. No. Um.
(10:17):
And the same issue popped up in a box set
for the animated series Star Wars. Rebels were to the
main female characters were absent, but you could get a
storm Trooper or a clone trooper. Yeah. It's interesting when
characters that don't even have names don't into their faces, Like, wait,
do you you don't see stormtroopers faces? Well, not generally no. Yeah,
(10:39):
So characters that you don't even see their faces get
top billing over characters who are the entire movie, like
they're they're like the biggest part. Yeah, she was if
you remember the posters, she was the central character, the
largest character. Um, she wasn't even In the addition of
Star Wars Monopoly, which if I remember quickly, was divided
in between light Side and dark Side, and it had Luke,
(11:01):
Skywalker and Finn on the light side and Kyler, Ren
and Darth Vader on the dark side. And um Hasbro,
who is the maker of Monopoly, claimed that having Ray
would have spoiled a key plotline, including her in it. Um,
do you buy that? No? Are you surprised rigid. I
(11:22):
don't buy it. She was the main person in the trailers,
the main person on the poster, and also for talking
good versus evil. I don't want to spoil it for anybody,
but Finn was the bigger spoiler. He was a storm
trooper who knows he could have gone either way before
the movie came out, right, But yeah, Hasbro didn't want to.
(11:43):
I didn't want to say either way. The director of
Star Wars Force awakens J. J. Abrams M who I
once had a dream his name meant money. Wait, so
Abrams was a unit of currency. Yeah, J. J. Abrams
and specific the whole name. He denounced the exclusion himself,
(12:03):
and because of the backlash, Disney, which now owns Star Wars,
um in gase she missed the memo on that one
released a series of merchandise featuring female characters Ray Jin
and Leah, who you couldn't get until a few years ago.
Princess Leia. She's an icon iconic. Okay, So I actually
loved this letter from an eight year old girl who
(12:24):
wrote to Hasbro basically shaking her tiny fist at them
about Rai's absence. She writes, without her, there is no
Force awakens all caps, so cute. I love that she
said such a such a and it was color coding. Oh,
I love this kid, friend of the show. I hope so,
I think so she says it awakens in her Hasbital
(12:47):
gave a very clunky business non response to her letter
and basically said, well, she's in the games and we'll
make more toys. They kind of directed her to these
other games she's in and you know eventually she'll yeah,
we'll put her in other things. Don't worry about it. Um.
But this, this is a great example that the demand,
(13:07):
the demand for a Ray action figure was there, and
the toy sellers didn't have it. Um. And I said
at the beginning, Star Wars was the biggest property of
the year, and imagine how much more their profits could
have been if they had had that action figure that
people were asking for exactly. I think as women, we
often are so thirsting to see our stories reflected that
(13:29):
when we get a thoughtful depiction of those stories, we
flocked to it and it makes tons of money. And
you know, I think that there are enough little girls
out there who would have wanted to see that action figure,
and having that would have been a big deal for them,
and they it just seems like they missed out on
money by doubling down on sexism. Yeah. I remember reading
an article from one of the toy sellers and he said, basically,
(13:53):
they made a big gamble that Kylo Wren was gonna
be the big breakout character, and so they made a
ton of him. But then everybody wanted Ray and they
just made the wrong gamble. Um. And we can't forget
another another hashtag, Where's Natasha? And this is all about um.
When the Avengers Age of Ultron came out, the female
(14:16):
character of the team, Black Widow, did not get her
own action figuring. It was particularly a big deal because
there was a an action set that was depicting one
of her key scenes, a very popular scene where she
comes out of this helicopter transport on a motorcycle. Very cool. Um.
This action figure set replaced her with Captain America. And
(14:40):
all is he in the scene? He's in the scene.
That's not he's like far away doing something else. He's
like he's like tying a shoe with the scene he's
fighting Ultron, if I remember correctly, But he's far away.
She's doing her own cool thing and Um. All the
male characters the team also got their own T shirt,
(15:00):
but Black Widow did not. And um, I am wearing
my Avengers T shirt. I was gonna say, any you're
like dressed to impress today, you're wearing your Black Widow shirt. Well,
she's not there. I I found the shirt. Yeah, look
where is she? She's not there. This must be very
fun visual for people. We can't see it, so trust me.
(15:23):
And he's wearing a shirt that you would imagine Black
Widow would be in the mix on. You got Captain America,
you got the whole Spider Man, the whole team. There.
Where is she? She's not there? Um. But there were
these other Avengers shirts that came out for boys that said, um,
be a hero, and the shirts that came out for
(15:44):
girls said well, essentially it said I need a hero
or I only kiss heroes. That's gross. I know, it's
like for eight year olds. There was a young kid.
Is that's gross. Yeah. There's a whole tumbler called but
Not Black Widow dedicated to finding instances of her left
(16:08):
out of merchandizing. And I went through it and it's
both very funny and very depressing. Oh and if you're
writing an email, but what about how guy don't do it? Um?
Because yes, well, he does have less merchandise than the
other Avengers. He has more merchandise than Black Widow despite
having less screen time. And on top of that, his
(16:30):
relative omission is not a problem the same way that
Black Widow is, because there are a lot of white
dude action figures that have kind of a similar story
that you could buy and that's not so with Black Widow.
Or while we're talking about it, Falcon as well. And um,
it is true that in the comics and some of
the comics he's deaf, and if that were true in
(16:52):
popular media, then yes, this would be the same kind
of problem, but it isn't. I like him to all
for more Hawkeye merchandise, but it's not the same level
of problem. Just putting that out there, Yeah, I think
it's important to note that because yeah, you already get
his story kind of reflected in the other characters. Meanwhile,
(17:14):
Black Widow's story is not reflected in the same way.
So it's not the same level of being left out
when your identity is sort of already depicted in other
ways in a way that hers is not. Right. Um,
and this whole thing follows dust steps surrounding Iron Man three.
According to the movie's director Shane Black, the original script
was written with a female villain, but the studio vetoed
(17:37):
that decision, telling black toys won't sell as well if
it's female. Not only was the villain recast as male
because of toys toys sales, mind you, um, but other
the other two female characters got their screen time reduced.
So this is a pretty serious influence these toys are having.
(18:01):
That's wild. So they went back and like basically restructured
this whole movie based around projected toy sales, yes, um, allegedly.
And I read a very snarky comment about it somewhere
because the villain they ended up going with this Guy Peers,
and I like Guy Peers. But somebody was like, good
thing that all those people got their Guy Peers Fireman
(18:22):
three villain dolls. Sure they were a top seller there. Yeah,
there's just so so many instances of this, and we're
going to talk about even more after a quick break
for a word from our sponsor, and we're back, Thank
(18:45):
you sponsor. Yeah, And we were talking about this, this
problem of um, this idea that girl toys don't sell
as well as boy toys. And we found this interview
with Kevin Smith, do you want to talk about a bridget? Yeah?
I found this interview to be pretty too pressing if
you want to know the truth. He was an interview
that Kevin Smith did on his podcast Fatman on Batman.
Clever name was television producer Paul Deanie. Basically, Deanie really
(19:09):
echoed this point that we were making earlier about young
girls and action figures. He said that executives don't want
girls watching these shows because they don't buy toys. We
need boys, but we need girls right there, right one
step behind the boys. This is the network talking one
step behind the boys. Not as smart as the boys,
not as interesting as the boys, but still right there.
And really, that to me is demonstrated and the kind
(19:31):
of thing that you were just talking about, where the
women characters are there, but they're kind of one step behind.
And as depressing as it is, I see that in
so many films where there is a woman character, but
she doesn't have the coolest lines or the coolest plot
line or the coolest story. She's just sort of there
in the mix. And I see that reflected both in
(19:52):
the films and then in how these toys are you know,
made or not made? Because they're saying, I mean, Deanie says,
these executives things that boys are the ones who are buying,
you know, little fidget tops, but they're also buying action
figures girls by princesses. We're not selling princesses. And really
it kind of becomes the self fulfilling prophecy where because
executives think girls aren't gonna buy these toys, they don't
(20:14):
make the toys, and thus girls don't buy them because
they don't exist, and so it just becomes this this
cycle of girls not seeing themselves reflected in this merchandise. Right,
and Um, to go back to what you're saying for
a bit about the female characters there, but she's kind
of one step behind. Um. There's a poster of the
(20:37):
The Avengers where every all the male characters are in
this tough pose with their weapons or their fists, getting
ready to fight, and Black Widow is the only character
that's not facing towards towards the audience. She's looking at
her phone. She's like, so you can see her her
ass and she's in a very pin uppy position. And
(20:58):
I can't remember the name of the arts, but he
did kind of a rendition of it making fun of
it where he had her facing um In looking all
badass and tough with her her history and a fighting
position all the male characters but there. But I like it.
That's true. It really goes to demonstrate what they're talking
about in this interview where she's just sort of an accessory.
(21:20):
And again, one of the reasons why this is so
troubling is that as young girls grow up, they start
to see themselves as the side characters in their own story,
Like they can't be the protagonist of their own life,
their own story. It will always sort of be the
accessory with their ass out. Nothing wrong with having your
ass out, hey do you? But that shouldn't be the
(21:41):
only way that you're allowed to be in the mix
and these kinds of stories, right, um And there's another
instance of Go Mora, the only female character of Guardians
of the Galaxy, or at least the first one, wasn't
featured in that superhero set of action figures. Either. You
could get more expensive collectible one separately that was not
(22:03):
widely available and not really four kids like for collecting
um and up Rocks found the Guardians of the Galaxy
t shirt at Children's Palace that featured the entire team
minus camera and the team and up Rocks emailed them
about it, and Children's Palace responded with the Guardians of
the Galaxy shirt in particular is a boy's shirt, which
(22:25):
is why it does not include that the female character Gomera.
So I guess we can't have any characters of the
opposite sexy back to the shirt that people can't see.
You are wearing a shirt that has five, yeah, five
male characters on it, and so what I mean? Also,
I just had a moment of clarity. We're talking about
(22:45):
fictional characters who don't actually exist. What's going on? These
people are real everything. The whole damn system is wrong.
And also, yeah, are we that gender binaries? It this
or this? And the answer seems to be in this
world of toys and merchandise and many other realms, yes,
(23:07):
yes we are. But I want to note, um Guardians
of the Galaxy opening weekend women accounted for of ticket sales.
And I will say for that particular movie, because it
was kind of strange, it was a bit of a
hard sell, even though it turned out to be. I thought,
pretty lovely, that's pretty high. That's that's a lot of
women are females or girls that you're ignoring. Yeah, I
(23:28):
think that takes us back to the episode we did
around Final Girl, that trope and horror movies where people
assume a women are buying tickets to this who cares
how they're depicted it. They're not going to see this
movie anyway, or if they do, they're gonna be dragged
along by their boyfriend other husband, And the numbers don't
actually bear that out sometimes, but yet they're still acting
as if that's the case. I know, we're still operating
(23:48):
on this strange assumption that women don't go to see movies. Um.
And there is an essay that a former Marvel employee
wrote in and and then she pretty much said the
higher ups at Disney don't care about the female market
for Marvel products. They differentiated between actual demographics and desired demographics,
(24:11):
which you guessed it is for boys. Boys buy more toys,
is the thinking, or more superhero toys. And Disney already
has the princess lineup, so in their head they don't
need to worry about selling anything else to girls. Girls
are buying these princess they don't They don't need to
market superheroes to girls. They have that market. So from
(24:33):
a business standpoint, part of me can kind of understand that.
But here's why that doesn't fly. Wouldn't you as seem
that a company like Disney would just want to get
as many profits as they could And even if girls
were already buying princess stuff like Gangbusters, which apparently they are,
if you could have a new market that gets more
girls who maybe aren't interested in princess a pail Princess
South buying your stuff, wouldn't you want that? Yeah? I
(24:57):
would think so. I mean it just seems like a
choy he said, is like do you care more about
profits or sexism? It's like it's so important to push
this gendered binary of who plays with what we will
miss out on what could be more profits. Yeah. And
according to this letter from the Marvel employee, Disney bought
(25:17):
Star Wars and Marvel just to sell more toys to boys.
That was their business thinking. They made these huge business
business decisions. Um. And the problem also has to do
with how licensing works. So here comes the brief reef
paw Licensing works licensing Marvel toys is expensive and the
(25:40):
contract is typically several years long, and for a lot
of toys, there's a very small window of popularity. So
the licensees wants something that's a guarantee. If you've got
princesses as a guarantee for the girl toy demographic, superheroes
for the boys, then there's this undercurrent of girl action
figures don't sell. Yeah, they're not going to make those toys.
(26:04):
It's kind of this gambling. Yeah, they're betting on the
surefire what they think is the surefire thing. Yeah. It's
like it's exactly like what you were saying with the
whole Kylo Ren thing, where they just assumed Kylo Ren
is going to be the standout protagonist of this film. Therefore,
based on that assumption, let's gamble on making a ton
(26:25):
of Kylo Ren toys. Ray, we don't need to make
her a toy because people are going to buy it.
And from a business standpoint, it sounds like they really
take a gamble on things, and whether or not those
things actually come to fruition, they kind of go down
with the ship. And so they say, maybe girls would
buy these toys. We'll never know because we're never going
to invest in finding out right. And first, it's very
(26:47):
interesting that you called Kylo Ren a protagonist because who knows?
But is it not? No, no, we honestly don't know.
He's he's set up to be the villain, but probably
is going to be good. It's it's all open the
air spoiler alert. Yeah, he's pretty like Darth Vader. He
(27:09):
really wants to be Darth Vader. If you never seen
any Star Wars, that doesn't mean anything to you anyway,
he is okay, good, good, good. Then you describe some
Star Trek character and you have to throw you out
of the studio and say, I'm a little bit nervous.
I feel like I'm going to get a lot of
Oh jeez, I probably will too. And I know this
stuff that wearing the shirt, that's the nature of the beast.
(27:30):
I go to Dragon Gun every year. I dress up
as these characters. I've got a pretty badass Winter Soldier
outfit that I made. But I still that's a whole
another episode of like having to prove your fandom. Wait, question,
what do you think it is harder to get right?
Like the language of like being a social change feminist
or the language of nerdy culture stuff. Oh and on
(27:54):
this podcast, we're kind of walking a lot on both.
We know we are really asking for it now angry,
just like anger responses from everyone might get anger. Yeah,
pretty much, That's that's what we strive for here. Um. Oh,
here's here's something that sure to make people angry, but
I thought was worth mentioning flavor Wires. Sarah Seltzer says
(28:16):
that toxic masculinity is part of the problem here. Um,
and here's a quote from her Little boys, you see
are assumed to be disdainful of dolls because it makes
them up here, sissy are gay? Are you know? Caring? Compassionate, tender,
and other terrifying qualities? And that dated, foolish and problematic
taboo around boys and dolls, conscious or not, might well
(28:36):
be deemed by the toymakers more important than the yearning
that little girls might feel to play with a toy
that looks like them. And there's so much about that
that makes me very angry. Yeah, because I think that
that that quote really gets that this sort of existential
problem I have with this whole conversation is that they
have made a business choice that upholding this kind of
(28:59):
toxic idea that says that boys don't want to play with,
you know, baby dolls or be caring, and that that's
an important and important enough social construct to uphold that
even if you have to uphold that construct at the
behest of you know, profits, or at the behest of
all the little girls who yearn to see themselves reflected
(29:20):
both on screen and in merchandise. If that means making
that choice at the behest of those things, so be it.
I don't know if I'm making sense, but it just
seems like a really existential or maybe philosophical decision, and
it goes to show what we value and what we
don't value. And I my thinking is companies are number one.
(29:43):
Value is money. But this tells me that that that
something else is going on as well, that you would
that maybe is a bit surprising. And all of this
brings up the question of gendered marketing um that has
been in the news a lot lately. Actually um. But
first it brings us to quick break for a word
from our sponsor, and we're back, thank you sponsor. Okay, So,
(30:14):
if you visit any given toy store, you're probably going
to find an action packed boys section and a pink
princessy girls section. And this is kind of interesting when
you think about it, because, like you were saying, Bridget,
why would you try to sell something to only half
of the toy buying population. Um. I remember reading vaguely
(30:36):
that the reason we do this, that we have blue
for boys and pink for girls, was a marketing decision
to minimize hand me downs, like you're supposed to switch
it out every fifty years or so so that people
can't just not buy things. That's interesting because if you
bought a bunch of ungendered toys and everyone displays with everything,
(30:56):
and it's not you know this, get this goes to
your rather sister. I have considered that. Yeah, Um, and
I kind of I wonder if this is the case
here too, to some extent, that you're trying to minimize
this hand me down nature. I don't know. I I
liked my brother's hand me downs. If I had had
a sister out of liked her hand me downs to
(31:18):
any any toy coming my way was probably okay with me. Um.
Gendered marketing has been has become more aggressive in recent years.
Two percent of the ads in the nineteen Sears catalog
were gender targeted, but that number was fifty percent, so
(31:38):
it's gotten worse. Um. And this isn't limited to brick
and mortar stores. Most online toy sellers have a four
boys section that you can check or a four girls section,
and the Toy Industry Association even hands out awards for
Boy Toy of the Year and Girls Toy of the Year. Wow.
First of all, who knew that that toy makers had
(31:59):
their own like Grammys. I'm sure it's quite the party. Yeah, oh,
you know, it's probably toys everywhere. Now I want to go.
I really have all kinds of like sweet toys you've
never even heard of. They'll never have us, It's true. Yeah.
I have to say. One of my biggest pet peeves
(32:20):
when it comes to the gendered marketing of toys is
toys in a traditional sense do not need to be gendered. Right, so,
no toy needs to be gendered in general, but toys
that like a wagon where it's you know, a blue
wagon with a firefighter hat on it, and then a
pink wagon when it's the same thing, and they make
two different versions of it, and it just boggles my
mind why you would need to have it be you know, look,
(32:44):
a certain way for a girl child, and then look
a different way for a boy child, and the functionality
is still the same. I don't want to make it
sound like I'm I'm ranting on little girls who like
princess stuff, because I was definitely the little girl who
liked princess stuff. Um had a I had, you know,
pink streamers on my bike, that kind of thing. Yeah,
But I guess what I'm saying is that I think
kids will like anything that's marketed to kids if it's
(33:06):
brightly colored. I don't think it needs to be explicitly
for girls or for boys to get little kids to
play with it. And I think if we, if we
as adults act like that's the case, that things that
are sparkly painting pretty for girls and blue firefighter for
boys or whatever, like we're sending them the wrong method.
And I don't think that kids just like things that
are for kids. Like you were saying that you were
just kind of happy to get a toy, and that
(33:28):
if you knew that this is like, this is like
a toy for a kid, you would be happy to
get it, whether it was from your brother or from
your I guess you don't have a sister, but I did. Yeah, yeah,
well that was one of the interesting examples I ran
across as dinosaurs, because dinosaurs are always included in the
boys section. There's nothing inherently gendered about dinosaurs, like they're
(33:49):
not blue. You know, if they were in the girls
section in theory, they could sell just as well. They're
just seen as this boy thing. Um In drastic World,
they were a big uptick of dinosaurs, sale of dinosaurs,
and they thought that maybe um girls were buying them too,
And what would let mean? Oh my goodness. I found
(34:11):
a lot of articles about it. Actually, But let's let's
back up the Tonka truck a bit selling it two
boys and girls separately. Sorry, I just got that joke.
She's made my days. She's laughing at me. That was
I see what you did there, That was nice. I
(34:31):
love this. I wish you would follow me around and
laugh at all my lave of jokes. Maybe I will. Okay, okay,
um okay. So selling to boys and girls separately got
its start when department stores did from the nine twenties
to the nineteen sixties, when toys for girls consisted mostly
of kitchen, home or child rearing type things and toys
(34:51):
for boys were all about construction and building. Um oh,
and here's this hears ad for a broom and mop
set for girls from m Mother's Here is a real
practical toy for little girls. Every little girl likes to
play house, to sweep, and to do mother's work for her. Don't, well,
(35:16):
it's the time of our lives when we're kids. Meanwhile,
and add targeted two boys from that same year, read
every boy likes to tinker around and to try to
build things. With an erector set. He can satisfy this
inclination and gain mental development without apparent effort. He will
learn the fundamentals of engineering. That is very different. That
(35:38):
is very different. And also, I mean so to a
couple of things about that one. Learning the fundamentals of
engineering sounds a hell of a whole lot more fun
than mopping the floor. But I will say, when I
was a kid, I did this this miniature toy vacuum
that I don't like. I don't think it was a toy. Actually,
I think it might have been like an actual vacuum.
My mom was like, here's a toy. It was like
a dustbuster. I think I was just being tricked into cleaning.
(36:04):
I think so verg I think, yeah, just using you
to my one of my good friends, she just had
her sister just had a baby, and he's the cutest thing.
But one of his favorite toys is their swiffer. And
so they've rigged up a little swiffer, like a like
a tiny version that they've like somehow made the handle shorter.
And his favorite thing is to run around the house
with a swiffer. And I'm thinking one day he's going
(36:25):
to be like a very effective member of his household. Oh,
I hope. So, I guess there is something satisfying about it.
I had a toy that you would feed it and
then it would pee like it had a diaper, and
somehow it would like leak baby alive. Yeah, I had
that same baby. So basically, you you came with a
(36:46):
bottle that you put water into. You it had a
hole in its mouth and so you basically were pouring
water into the mouth the whole. I don't I don't
know how the functionality of the toy works, but my
understanding is that the whole went through the baby into
like I guess the vagina of the baby, and that
it wore a diaper. And then the water would pour
out and then you change the diaper like that, that's
(37:07):
the fun part of the toy. I never thought it
was fun. You don't find the idea of a child,
an infant wedding themselves and then you have to take
care of it to be funny. I guess I'm a
terrible version. And I don't know. I really did not
enjoy it. I like hit it away. Um okay, so
(37:28):
back to back to the history of gendered marketing. Um.
Once women started entering the workplace in greater numbers in
the seventies, gendered marketing did die down a bit. But
then in a decision in the United States to ease
the regulations on television shows aimed at kids lead to
(37:51):
all of these toys getting their own shows are really
half hour long advertisements, like if you think of Transformers,
which my goodness, this is now what five movies. It's
a franchise, but they're like action movies. Yeah, those like
it went from being like those toys became like media moguls.
(38:11):
They're like, we're gonna have you know how like Oprah
it has like Oprah the show, open the magazine. We're
gonna have Megatron the magazine a couple of years, like
the way that they went from just toys to a
cartoon to a big budget action film with a list actors.
I mean, it's gonna be Megatron the podcast. They're gonna
be at how stuff works with a film podcasts. You're
(38:32):
gonna put us out of business. They really might. I mean,
look look how successful they been. That's true. They also
have a ride that I do love at Universal Studios,
and I was waiting in line for it once and
Megatron came up to me and he said, for the
sake of humanity, I must go now, and then he
just walked away, and it was a very bizarre moment.
(38:52):
I mean, he walked away. I appreciate that he's a
he's the evil villain. I would think that Megatron would
be really down to earth. No, no, well that's kind
of a weird pun because they're aliens. You're like knocking
it out of the park with your jokes today, Bridget,
(39:12):
you are the best anytime I do. If I ever
do stand over improv, I'm inviting you and I want
you to be in the front row and no one
else is laughing. That is all I need. Another good
example that it's not successful in the same scale, but
G I. Joe, which does also have its own feature
(39:33):
link action movies as well too. Um and the success
of Disney's Princesses along with Barbie further solidified this gender divide.
And I do have a quick note about Barbie that
I had to throw in here. Her full name is
Barbie Middlicent Roberts, and she was first available in her
(39:54):
appearance was inspired by the German lily doll, which was
sort of a sex joke gift you'd give to another dude,
but children started playing with them. And then one thing
lent to another huge, huge company toy for girls inspired
by a sex little sex gift. Well that is when
they goes to show the lack of thought put into
(40:15):
toys for girls that this throwaway gag gift for men.
Little girls started playing with it, so now it's a toy.
Like interesting how barb is such an iconic toy, but
it started as a joke get that wasn't even for kids, right, Um,
And I guess that brings us to this point. It
turns out people do buy action female action female figures,
(40:39):
female action figures. UM sales of female action figures sold
more in the years from than they had in the
entire past decade. After Wonder Woman came out, sales of
Wonder Woman merchandise was estimated to reach five hundred million
to one billion dollars. Yeah. A couple of years back,
(41:01):
when the all female Ghostbusters came out, sales of the
corresponding action figures exceeded expectations. And that's a quote from
the company that made them, mattel Um for both boys
and girls. It wasn't just girls buying these action figures.
In DC released a line of female superhero girls. And
this is still problematic and that it markets specifically to girls,
(41:23):
but it is a start of saying that they're you know,
fighting poses your action figures they have female We still
have so far, so far to go, but that is something, Yeah,
I think that's that's positive. I mean, we definitely have
a long way to go, but something that gives a
nod to the fact that there are little girls out
(41:43):
there that want to see themselves in these ways and
think of themselves as you know, like I said that
the action heroes of their own life and their own
stories and and give them that permission to do that.
I think that's important. I think any step in that
direction is good. Yeah, and this is not just we
shouldn't just settle for sales of white lady action figures,
(42:04):
because I believe, don't you have an Ava DuVernay Barbie?
I do have an Avadarie sold out in twenty minutes. Yes, Um,
she comes with her own little director's chair and her
own little pair of glasses. And the doll looks just
like her. When I bought that doll, I had hair
almost exactly like hers. Um, I just her probably once.
So it's kind of a thing. But yeah, it's okay.
(42:28):
So I should say I love Barbie right like I'm
not so I'm not one of these feminists. It's like
Barbie as she sucks. I really like Barbie. I collected Barbies.
My mom is an adult who collects Barbies. This is
where I get it. I it sounds really silly, but
when I saw that Ava Duvarnay doll, it was just
so cool. It was just so cool. I mean, she
(42:48):
is a powerhouse black female director, and even to be
that is is unusual in this country. It shouldn't be,
but it is. And then to have her likeness, her story,
her image be condensed into an iconic brand like a
Barbie doll, and let's be real, like the people who
have that doll are not kids. It's like weird adults
(43:09):
like myself, So let's be real. But the fact that like,
somewhere out there, a little kid could be playing with
that doll and the way that you were doing My
Little Pony dramatic reenactments, they could be doing Ava du
Varney pitches to Netflix, and that's how they're you know,
that's how they could be playing. And I don't know,
it's it's I could easily see myself being one of
the people who's like, oh, it's just toys. Who cares?
(43:30):
Who cares? But when I got that doll, it did
make a difference. And I'm an adult and it made
a difference. Yeah. And speaking of Barbie, recently was in
the news for releasing the Inspiring Women collection with historical
ladies like Amelia Earhart and Katherine Johnson, along with all
those stem themed Barbies of recent years. And this is
a long way from back when one of her catchphrases
was that class is tough. Barbie sales in general have
(43:54):
been in decline for several years, and in response, Mattel
has released barbies of different bodies, shape, skin to and
hair colors. And I will say my parents, Oh, I
can't remember her name, but there was a knockoff barbie
but she was kind of chubbier, and that was the
one my parents always wasn't was she also in the
Barbie universe and now she was like a Barbie knockoff?
(44:15):
And I feel like it was simply me or something.
I don't know. I was always kind of bummed out
about it, but at the same time, I appreciated. I
appreciated that she existed. UM and kids aren't the only
ones who want more gender neutral toy options. Parents do too,
and many have been pushing for a wider range for
(44:35):
their children. UM in toys aimed at girls saw a
significant increase, but if you break it down, the largest
area of growth was in the more gender neutral categories
like games, games, and specific The same year, sales of
toys aimed at boys, like action figures, drastically decreased. Some
companies saw signs that gendered marketing may not be the
(44:56):
best way to sell toys and took steps. Like Target
UM they made lines recently by getting rid of gender
based signs in some departments, including toys. British retailer Hamley
did something similar in two thousand and eleven, doing away
with the pink accented floors denoting the girl's aisle and
the blue floors for the boys aisle, and another another
British chain, Boots, did essentially the same thing, and getting
(45:20):
more women in on these toymaking decisions would be a
step in the right direction as well. Currently, it's a
man's world for a Lego as of senior management consisted
of twenty two men and two women, and barbie makers
Mattel looks the same with eleven men and one woman again,
in which is very strange that it's all these men
in charge of barbies is very strange. Yeah, it is,
(45:46):
isn't it. We have we both have very weird looks
at our faces because I do think thinks strange that
we're leaving it up to a group of mostly adult
men to get into the minds of the people who
are going to be playing with these dolls. Yeah, yeah,
it's a little it's a little weird. Um. And I
when I was trying to think of the clever thing
(46:06):
to stay at the end of this, I thought, well,
we need to make more movies and entertainments with women,
and then then the action figures and the merchandise will follow.
But clearly that's not always true. And if toy sales
are influencing what in entertainment gets made, then we need
more gender neutral toys. And again, this is leaving out
(46:29):
a lot of people. This is leaving out a lot
of non binary folks and just a whole plethora of
stories we could be telling again, and we're not telling them.
And from a purely capitalistic standpoint, it's leaving a lot
of money on the table too. Yeah, that's the thing
I haven't quite wrapped my head around just yet is
companies who embrace more gender neutral marketing decisions are the
(46:50):
ones who were seeing an uptick in their sales, right,
And so why wouldn't all Why wouldn't all companies do that?
Just mean I can't. I can't sort of like wrap
my head around it. I think they're entrenched in their ways.
I think they truly believe girls don't buy these things,
even if there is evidence to the contrary. And it
comes back to that sort of philosophical point where it
(47:10):
almost seems like making money takes a backseat to upholding
this gendered construction of who plays with what, and again
it's playing with toys may sound like a trivial thing,
but it's important to the development of children and it
gives them. We're whether we know it or not, we're
(47:33):
telling them in a maybe subtle way or maybe an
obvious way, that this, this is your role. This is
the box that you go in, and it impacts how
they what they imagine their future could be. Yeah, because,
as we say on the show all the time, if
you can't see it, you can't be it, and kids
of all genders need to see it so they can
(47:54):
be it. Yeah. Yeah, more more gender neutral toys, more
black widow. Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. Well. I think that is
all we have to say about action figures and toys
for now. We're gonna do another follow up. I think Oh,
I think so. I think so. We clearly have a
lot to say about this topic. So sminthy listeners, this
(48:16):
is an episode where I really really really want you
to tag us and stuff. Do you have a kid
who loves her superhero outfit? Do you have a little
boy who loves his Barbie? I don't want to see
it all. I love kid pictures, Please, please please tag
us and all the kid and toy related things we
really want to see them. You can find us on
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(48:36):
mom stuff at how stuff works dot com