January 4, 2012 • 28 mins
Whether or not you're a fan of thongs, there's no denying that they attract attention. But where did these flimsy strings come from? Join Caroline and Cristen as they look into the origin of one of humanity's most controversial pieces of clothing.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Brought to you by the reinvented two thousand twelve camera.
It's ready. Are you welcome to stuff Mom Never told you?
From House Stuff Works dot Com. Hello, and welcome to
the podcast. I'm Kristen and I'm Caroline. And the reason
(00:20):
why we're talking about thongs today is because a listener
wrote in genuinely curious about the origin of thong underwear
the most controversial piece of clothing one can have in
their chest of drawers, I would argue and easily flicked
at someone like a rubber band. Yeah. And also, let's
(00:41):
not forget the most famous, while in my mind at least,
sex tip from Cosmopolitan magazine, which was to use your
thong as a scrunch. Everything is wrong with that, yes, hopefully,
I mean I'm assuming it's a it's a clean one,
straight from the dryer. Um. And also because of this podcast,
(01:03):
a certain song by a certain former brief pop star
named Cisco has been stuck in my head because when
I was in high school, early high school, the thong
song came out. I remember it from freshman year of college.
I think it was a year two thousand. In the
(01:24):
year two thousand, there was a thong song um, and
I remember jamming out to that and also being like, oh,
this is gross wym my singing saying this songs are
so infectious. They just get up in there, don't they. Uh. Yes.
But long before Cisco, people had been wearing thongs. Uh,
(01:48):
the earliest songs. This comes from the origin of everyday things,
a little book, and the earliest thongs were made of leather,
which has to be more uncomfortable than cotton, right, depending
on how they were made, I guess right. And African
tribes and Egyptians were among the first thong wears, which
(02:08):
makes complete sense because they were in warm climates, right,
and they needed some some breathing room. But I mean,
they obviously did not think about their leather loincloth thongs
the way we think of thongs today, which are provocative
their lingerie. They're used to prevent visible panty lines. I
don't think the Egyptians were worried about panty lines. I
(02:29):
think they were just like, it's hot, it was utility, Yeah, exactly.
But I just want to point out a one one
thong fan with King tut More than a hundred thong
type garments were found in his tomb. Hey, what are
you gonna wear in the afterlick, you've got to have
a change of underwear even in the afterlife. Absolutely, African
(02:51):
tribes and Egyptians were certainly not the only ones. Greeks
and Japanese people wore them. Also, the Japanese thong style
now correct me, is it fundoshi or fundoshi? I think
it would be fundoshi. Fundoshi was originally the only type
of undergarment in Japan and later became associated with warriors
like samurais and Suma wrestlers. And if you're into the
(03:12):
Suma wrestler scene, they still wear traditional garments like that. Uh.
And according to Elizabeth Ewing's nineteen seventy six book Underwear
a History, there's a Roman mosaic from four eight that
shows several women also wearing what looks like bikinis or briefs.
So it's kind of funny that that really thongs as
(03:34):
we would think of them, start out more as a
dude thing before it became more common for women. But
Westerners and Europeans were just really turned off by this
whole loincloth. I do, but it really offended our nostagi
sensibilities that, you know what, didn't offend people crotchless underwear.
(03:55):
This is very true, instead of bearing our buttocks, which
according to you Professor Otto Steinmeyer from the University of
Malaya near qual Umpur, who studied loin cloths in Borneo. Uh,
he said that that Westerners really hated loin claus because
of a secret homophobic fear of the bear buttocks. YEA, interesting,
(04:20):
but they're a little squeamish. Westerners pretty squeamish about that,
but not squeamish like you said, Caroline about this, uh,
crutchless underwear, right, because we didn't always have the idea
in our heads that everything needed to be covered up
and that pantylines needed to be prevented and things like that.
Once upon a time in Victorian England, people wore a
(04:40):
lot of clothes. They had creneline and petticoats and all
this stuff, and it was very hard. If you've ever
worn a wedding dress or a prom dress and needed
to go to the bathroom, so many of both of
those many you are the twenty seven dress of the girl. Um,
it's it's hard to go to the bathroom. You you
need help, and so to make it easier to pop
(05:02):
a squat, Victorian ladies would wear bloomers that were kind
of baggy and um, they didn't have anything covering the crotch.
So you know, it served two purposes, uh, maybe three
if we get technical. One making it easier to go
to the bathroom too, it prevented things from getting to um,
(05:23):
it kept airflow going, yes, breathable right. And three well, uh,
they didn't take them off to go to bed, so
it made some other things very easy to like sex.
That's exactly what I'm saying, provides sexual access. Uh. It
kind of reminds me of back in the day when
they had uh, this is more like an eighties thing.
(05:44):
Remember Leotard's that had the snap crotches. Yeah, I've worn um.
I don't want to get too personal. I don't. I
mean a lot of you just don't know me. But
I have Warren spanks. If anyone's ever worn spanks dot
dot dot do they have a no cross? Oh I didn't.
I had no idea. It took away my dat dot
(06:04):
dot I had. But I would like to briefly touch
on the etymology of g string. This is coming from
William Sapphire and it goes back far, far earlier than
a lot of you might assume he found the earliest
instance of G string, and it was spelled g e
string all one word mentioned in the book Western Wilds
(06:28):
and the Men Who Redeemed Them by John H. Beadle
in eighteen seventies seven, and it was used to describe
a loincloth worn by some American Indians and some American
settlers who did not have that latent homophonic good for them. Um,
now after you've really interrupted me of talking about my
(06:49):
Victorian history, and now I mean it's it's interesting the
G string because well, I just wonder do you think
that's what carried through to the current gy string or
do you think there's a different reason that we call
it a string? Do you think it's all I guess
it all comes from the same place. Well, according to
that the New York Times article that WILLIAMS. Sapphire wrote,
looking at the G string, he seemed to think that
(07:12):
it goes all the way back here, there's a there's
a basic continuum. Interesting. I would like to point out
that just how common these crotchless bloomers were, and that
is that Queen Victoria had monogrammed crotchless bloomers and apparently
they were huge because she herself was not petite. But
(07:32):
in two thousand eight, a pair of her I'm gonna
say crotchless again, a pair of her crotchless bloomers went
for more than nine thousand pounds at auction, crotchless and monogrammed,
very fancy Victoria talking about Victoria's secret um. Now moving on,
Edwardian ladies wore longer pentaloons flash bloomers with strings tied
(07:53):
at the waist and knees, and they had loose crotches
and were made of cotton, so they were very loose
and breathable, didn't didn't constrict you in any way. And
moving even further forward into the nineteen twenties and thirties,
undy's in silk wall or very fine cotton had crotches
low enough not to get caught between your buttocks or labia,
(08:14):
so no one in the Roaring twenties was worried about cameltoe.
In the nineteen forties, underwear starts to get a little
more close fitting, as clothes do. The female silhouette starts
to making our glass shapes with my hands right now. Uh.
And then in nineteen forty sorry, in nineteen thirty nine,
(08:35):
New York Mayor fear Ello LaGuardia requested that the city's
exotic dancers dressed in a more appropriate manner. And so
they then, and this is ninety nine, they adopted the
thong as there as they're more acceptable stage garb because
they were still showing a lot, but not too much.
(08:55):
And that was one thing that I wasn't able to
find was the link between exotic dancing and stripping and
UH and thongs in the general public and sort of
how it grew out of that because a lot of
times there's that now it made the leap, Yeah, because
that's the explanation for like it started out thongs for
(09:17):
women at least, not the loin cloths for men. Thongs
for women started out in UH and strip joints. Well. Um,
there was a little bit written about how the thong
was adopted by and I don't know if this has
anything to do with its popularity now, but how it
was adopted by Brazilian dancers but for their festivals. You know, Um,
(09:38):
you see in like Carnival, you see pictures of these
women who were just you know, just gorgeously all dolled
up with feathers and glitter, and they're wearing like next
to nothing basically, and they wear thong. They tend to
wear thongs, so they have heard of them as tanga
tanga tanga and um. Fashion history would attribute the modern
thong to ru D gern Reich, who was a fashion
(10:02):
designer who introduced a thong as we know it today
in nineteen seventy four. And I believe this is also
attributed to the origin of everyday things. And he was
an Austrian fashion designer, very edgy, who invented the mono kinny,
which is a topless bakini, which is basically rudy underwear.
Just you reinvented underwear, you're brilliant. He clearly was just like,
(10:25):
how else can we get women on the beach not
wearing much? Oh no, those on that's not underwear, that's
a mono key And that's the closest I can get
to an Austrian accent. That's not at all anyway. Well,
I mean other people who popularize the thong, for better
or worse are Britney Spears, who I think it's blamed
(10:46):
for everything in society. Brett Britney Spears, there's a picture
of her horrifically wearing um a thong under leather chaps. Yes,
I'll never you can't unsee something, but it is not
just Britney Spear rs H. Scully. Julian Anderson was seen
on the Red carpet. If you google it, there's a
there's an image of her she wearing. She's wearing this
(11:08):
low backed dress with a the V A K A
whale tale sticking out prominently like it was obviously part
of It's like halfwere her back. I mean, yeah, her
dress is low cut, but I mean I I felt
on my back. I was like, okay, where is her thong?
Where is my Now? My underwears way below that, so
I think she pulled that up just for show. UM
(11:30):
and Victoria's Secret also had its first fashion show in nine,
which also helped launch the thong into prime time because
suddenly the undergarment fashion shows weren't anything new, but they
were usually private and an all female affair. But with
(11:51):
the Victoria's Secret fashion show, anybody could check out the
ladies stretting their stuff in thong underwear and whether that
is appropriate yet, I am not wont to say. There
are arguments over feminism and thongs, which are interesting. I
don't think there is an argument about you know, why
(12:12):
are you wearing certain types of underwear? Is it to
attract a man and be more sexually attractive, or is
it to make yourself feel better, et cetera. Well, especially
with the U, with the rise of the thong came
the lowering of the waistline. We have the muffin top. Yes,
we we have these super low rise jeans and your
(12:34):
and your thong that went with it, and the I
don't know, I guess trendy among certain groups. Trendy thing
to do was to to show flash or thong, and
I could see how something like that might not sit
that well with feminist ethics. Writer Natasha Stag posits that
(12:56):
it's okay for a feminist to wear a thong, but
is it okay for a thong to be representative of feminism?
And can a thong be representative of anti feminism? Well,
first of well, of course it's okay for a feminist
to wear a thong, because feminism is all about choice,
So you should be able to wear boy shorts, a
G string, a C string, even um, which I did
(13:17):
not know existed. No, there are no strings, but it's
just it's kind of like a large Maxi pad. That's
exactly what that's exactly what it looks like. Um. But
this whole issue of of whether we need underwear to
represent feminism, it seems also far reaching, right. Zoe Williams
(13:38):
of The Guardian in two thousand seven wrote that, in short,
just because you're a woman and something makes you feel good,
that doesn't necessarily add up to feminism. So yeah, I
guess she was. She had a big column about undergarments
and girdles and spanks and things like that that suck
you in and make you look better, and people who
say that you're not a feminist if you wear certain
(14:00):
types of undergarments to change your appearance. Well, there is
the whole thing of that that Stag points out about
how we feel the need to hide our panty lines
by creating the illusion of going underwear less. So we're
wearing underwear to make it look like we're not wearing
underwear and is it all that comfortable? And why are
(14:22):
we even doing that? Should penny lines be such a
big deal? Well, I mean, I think that argument is
kind of silly, just because when I wear a thong,
because I'm wearing nice pants to work or something. It's
not because I'm trying. I'm not trying to look like
I'm not wearing underwear. I'm just trying to make you
not look at my butt and see panty lines and
(14:44):
be like there is for underwear. I just, you know,
stop looking at my butt anyway. Jeez well. Jennifer Baumgartner
and Amy Richards, in an essay Feminism and Femininity or
How We Learn to Stop Worrying and Love the Thong,
wrote that they positive that the thong is symbolic of
young people's relationship to feminism, meaning that the relationship is
(15:08):
often personal, okay, invisible, sure, and uncomfortable. Okay, yeah, because
feminism We've talked about before on the podcast Feminism is
a is a tricky um term for some people to
self identify with because of all the baggage that might
come with it, correct and and perceptions of of or
(15:28):
fear of perceptions from other people of what's Saying that
you're a feminist will make you look like to other people,
maybe in the way that a visible bandylion or a
whale tale might make you. I might spur assumptions from
other people, But again, it's I just wonder when I'm
reading analysis like this, if we aren't putting too much
(15:51):
weight onto clothing. I think we I think we are.
I mean, in my opinion, I think it's a feminism argument.
Really did two thongs that sort of stilly? I understand
how you can look at a woman like, let's say
you're in a club or I don't know, on the
street even and a woman's underwear is purposely hanging out
to look provocative. I mean, I can see how maybe
(16:12):
there's an argument about like, but your underwear back in
your pants in respect yourself. But you know, if she
wants to wear underwear out and you know she's not
around small children whatever. Uh. I have mentioned whale tale
a number of times now, um, and would like to
offer this little little trivia nugget for you, Caroline us
(16:32):
Is reported an MSNBC. In two thousand five, the American
Dialectical Society voted. They did vote for truthiness that year
as the word of the year, but whale tail was
the most creative, beating out narrowly muffintop. Yeah, but it's
sort of funny that whale tail one most creative word
(16:53):
of the year. In two thousand five, since in two
thousand four the New York Times declare the thong passe
I can I just I want Okay, Look, I think
fashion discussions are ridiculous. I think I'm sorry if I
offend someone who is really into fashion. But I think
(17:14):
the way people talk about clothing, especially insiders. If you
call pants a pant, if you call jeans a gene,
I just think it's ridiculous. And so the this two
thousand four New York Times article is hysterical to me
because they take this discussion of the thong so seriously. Well,
because no one really from the articles that we read,
(17:38):
no one really wanted to get on board with the thong.
No one was like, hey, you know what's really cool
these days, thongs. It's New York Times, just from the
tone of the article already seems to think that thongs
are a touch trashy. And they quote Adam Lips, and
this is in two thousand four. He's the founder of
the lingerie line Adam and Eve, and he's as women
(18:01):
got tired of it, and they got sick and tired
of seeing string hanging out the top of every celebrity's jeans.
It's just gross. I think it went too far over
the edge and enough is enough, which I know so
much anger directed at one piece of cotton and elastic.
It's incredible, right, And then, uh, let's let's not leave
(18:22):
out Cosmo from this discussion. They joined the dialogue in
a couple of years later, they declare the thong dead.
And they say that with the invention of m v
p L's, which is I guess, non visible pantiline underwear,
there's no need for thongs. Stop sticking string up your
butt when you can wear a laser cut underwear, which
(18:43):
I have a pair, and they are fantastic, and they
are actually laser cut boy shorts, which all of these
articles mean crazy over boy short, love the boy short. Yeah.
They thought it was a great alternative to the thong
because it didn't ride up and give you a perma
weggy and um. And I think that people were more
comfortable with it because it didn't have the same sexual
(19:03):
implications as a thong did. For instance, going back to
that epic New York Times article, they wrote, the thong
underpant became a cultural touchstone, the very symbol of teas
and perhaps because of that, that's one reason why the
sale of thongs to tweens, which just skyrocketed in the
(19:25):
early and mid two thousand's, was very concerning for parents. Right.
I would like to point out that according to it
was It Time magazine, Yes, UM, sales of thongs to
tweens have quadrupled since two thousand to one point six
million according to n B n p D Fashion World.
(19:47):
That's a lot of underwear, a lot of stringy, shany
small underwear. Two young girls. And I don't know how
many of you have seen the YouTube clip about the store.
I cannot remember what's idiots in, but there was a
tween and teen store selling crotchless panties geared towards young girls. Yeah,
and there was. I think it was a couple of
(20:08):
years ago. Abercrombie and Fitch had to pull UM a
line of tween targeted underwear. I believe there were thongs
UM that had very provocative sayings on them because it
was just it crossed, It crossed the line. And I
remember sites like Jezebel and other feminist blogs UM raising
(20:29):
a big stink and they pulled it UM. Consumer consumer
outrage can can actually make things happen sometimes. But the
boy short, seems like it's the new it's the new thong.
And after Cosmopolitan published that two thousand ten article declaring
the thong dead over its salon, Sarah Heppola wrote sort
(20:52):
of um a homage to the thong and also asking
men if they would miss that kind of to where
if they really thought it was that super sexy. And
this was my favorite quote from one of the men
who all of them requests to remain anonymous, and she's
sort of funny, all of them, and that she interviewed
(21:12):
this one guy said to me, the thong is like
finna Greek. It's a particular spice, a good one, but
only appropriate at points and rarely on its own and
never meant to dominate a dish. And so Helpless says
that the thong became boring and played out, which reminded
me of the Flapper episode where apparently too many people
were doing too much petting in the back of cars
(21:34):
that one flapper so that it was just over with.
But similarly, I mean, you know that that Flapper was
like petting is being played out and jazz isn't going
to be cool here pretty soon. And she was very
wrong on both counts. Because people are still making out
and listening to jazz. So it's interesting that all these
people are declaring the thong dead because they're still sold. Well, obviously, yeah,
(21:56):
they'll they still make up a decent percentage of the
under garments sales because there is you know, they do
have a utilitarian purpose, but we're not seeing them purposefully exposed.
The whale tale. The whale tale, I think is is
certainly uh sunk oh the good and a lot of
(22:18):
people would argue there is good reason for that. There
is a hygiene argument, for sure. A lot of people
are concerned about a tiny piece of string in your
crotch causing infections. And while there's no definite link, like
definite proven link between um infections and wearing stringy underwear,
(22:38):
they say that there there are issues. Yeah, Columbia Universities
go ask Alice Advice column said that anecdotally, gonnacologists have
reported an increasing number of thongs wearers suffering from our
current u t s and vaginal infections because they think
that the the elastic or the cotton or the lycra
in your gluteal folds, which was a phrase that I learned,
(23:01):
which is a fancy scientific wave saying you're crack um
that it can serve as a conduit for bacteria. Yeah,
a lot of people used the subway car uh metaphor
for the thong picking up it's I mean it's close.
It's a close fitting strip of fabric and it can
easily pick up fecal matter and bacteria from the anus
(23:24):
and get you know, commute, it's commuting, it's on the
it's on the subway car. Here comes uh. And if
the thong moves, carry it towards the vagina and urinary
tract right, And it can also cause micro abrasions or
cracks in the skin, which you can leave those delicate
tissues more susceptible to infection. But again um web m
(23:44):
d points out that there still isn't any scientific proof
that there is a connection between U T I contraction
and wearing thongs. Well, the patients Encyclopedia get Ready of
urinary tract infection, sexual systietis, and interstitial systetis. It's quite
a title, recommends that you be user friendly and remove
(24:07):
your underwear when you were at home. So let's get
a breeze, air things out. And they want you to
be kind to your perennium. They say, keep air flowing
around it at all times. Practice good hygiene, yeah, exactly,
take a shower. Yeah, but but yeah, the the U
T I thong connection is not not proven, right, um,
(24:29):
but you know, as always change your underwear every day,
take care of stuff down there. So I think that
the you know, the thong has seen its day, I
would say, And now it seems like we're we're in
the time of the boy short. And Helen Fisher, an
anthropologist UM who has also done a ton of research
on the the science of attraction and love, says that
(24:53):
it makes a lot of sense that the boy short
is more popular because, in a way, keeping things more
covered can be more erotic and alluring because it leaves
more to the imagination. But by the time you're in
your underwear in front of someone, I mean, is it
gonna stay out for very long? Does it matter what
under your underwear you're wearing. Well, that's a question that
(25:15):
we can post the listeners, because I certainly don't know.
I would like to know from people and uh if
if yeah, I mean, does it doesn't matter? Are we
putting too much weight onto these very small pieces of
cloth that can get very expensive. Yeah, they can silly,
So let us know what you think. Experiences with thongs,
(25:37):
with the boy shorts, with the whale tails, all of it.
Send us your thoughts. Mom stuff at how all stuff
works dot com. And I have an email here in
response to our podcast Ongoing Gray and this is from Nadine,
who is living in Taiwan and studying Mandarin Chinese. Very cool,
Nadine um. She said, I was reminded of my history
(25:58):
teacher from high school. He was young and full and
had a full head of gray hair, and I thought
that it was so strange. I've always associated gray hair
with really old people. I asked him why he had
gray hair, and he took it really well. He told me,
in the words of King Solomon, gray hair is a
crown of glory. You get it by having a righteous life,
and that probably means you have a lot of wisdom.
(26:19):
Maybe if people see your gray hair, meaning mine, they'll
think you're very wise and live a good life. I
hope that makes you feel better about the gray hairs
that you find. Thank you. I will imagine myself a king. Excellent.
This email is from Mariah. It's about our sex ed
series or set um she says. I am a junior
(26:40):
in high school and every year since sixth grade we
have had a unit on sexuality and HIV AIDS. These
units lasted between one and three weeks, depending on what
gray you're in. Obviously, the unit in high school is
the longest and most comprehensive, going over every STD in
great detail. We were taught back in sixth grade how
to use a condom and how pregnancy and STDs work.
(27:00):
In fact, abstinence was rarely discussed. The only time it
was mentioned was when at the end of the unit
the teacher would say that abstinence was the only way
to fully prevent pregnancy and disease. I didn't realize that
this was not the case for all schools. Now. The
interesting thing is our high school has one of the
highest rates of team pregnancy in the United States. There's
usually at least five girls at any given time who
(27:21):
were pregnant, which is really saying something considering that this
is a pretty small town. I thought this would be
something you guys would be interested in hearing. Yeah. I
didn't have a chance to get back to her and
ask her which small town it is, but um, yeah, interesting.
So again, if you have thoughts to send our way.
You can email us at Mom's Stuff at how stuff
(27:42):
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(28:03):
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reinvented two thousand twelve camera. It's ready, are you
Brought to you by the reinvented two thousand twelve camera.
It's ready. Are you welcome to stuff Mom Never told you?
From House Stuff Works dot Com. Hello, and welcome to
the podcast. I'm Kristen and I'm Caroline. And the reason
(00:20):
why we're talking about thongs today is because a listener
wrote in genuinely curious about the origin of thong underwear
the most controversial piece of clothing one can have in
their chest of drawers, I would argue and easily flicked
at someone like a rubber band. Yeah. And also, let's
(00:41):
not forget the most famous, while in my mind at least,
sex tip from Cosmopolitan magazine, which was to use your
thong as a scrunch. Everything is wrong with that, yes, hopefully,
I mean I'm assuming it's a it's a clean one,
straight from the dryer. Um. And also because of this podcast,
(01:03):
a certain song by a certain former brief pop star
named Cisco has been stuck in my head because when
I was in high school, early high school, the thong
song came out. I remember it from freshman year of college.
I think it was a year two thousand. In the
(01:24):
year two thousand, there was a thong song um, and
I remember jamming out to that and also being like, oh,
this is gross wym my singing saying this songs are
so infectious. They just get up in there, don't they. Uh. Yes.
But long before Cisco, people had been wearing thongs. Uh,
(01:48):
the earliest songs. This comes from the origin of everyday things,
a little book, and the earliest thongs were made of leather,
which has to be more uncomfortable than cotton, right, depending
on how they were made, I guess right. And African
tribes and Egyptians were among the first thong wears, which
(02:08):
makes complete sense because they were in warm climates, right,
and they needed some some breathing room. But I mean,
they obviously did not think about their leather loincloth thongs
the way we think of thongs today, which are provocative
their lingerie. They're used to prevent visible panty lines. I
don't think the Egyptians were worried about panty lines. I
(02:29):
think they were just like, it's hot, it was utility, Yeah, exactly.
But I just want to point out a one one
thong fan with King tut More than a hundred thong
type garments were found in his tomb. Hey, what are
you gonna wear in the afterlick, you've got to have
a change of underwear even in the afterlife. Absolutely, African
(02:51):
tribes and Egyptians were certainly not the only ones. Greeks
and Japanese people wore them. Also, the Japanese thong style
now correct me, is it fundoshi or fundoshi? I think
it would be fundoshi. Fundoshi was originally the only type
of undergarment in Japan and later became associated with warriors
like samurais and Suma wrestlers. And if you're into the
(03:12):
Suma wrestler scene, they still wear traditional garments like that. Uh.
And according to Elizabeth Ewing's nineteen seventy six book Underwear
a History, there's a Roman mosaic from four eight that
shows several women also wearing what looks like bikinis or briefs.
So it's kind of funny that that really thongs as
(03:34):
we would think of them, start out more as a
dude thing before it became more common for women. But
Westerners and Europeans were just really turned off by this
whole loincloth. I do, but it really offended our nostagi
sensibilities that, you know what, didn't offend people crotchless underwear.
(03:55):
This is very true, instead of bearing our buttocks, which
according to you Professor Otto Steinmeyer from the University of
Malaya near qual Umpur, who studied loin cloths in Borneo. Uh,
he said that that Westerners really hated loin claus because
of a secret homophobic fear of the bear buttocks. YEA, interesting,
(04:20):
but they're a little squeamish. Westerners pretty squeamish about that,
but not squeamish like you said, Caroline about this, uh,
crutchless underwear, right, because we didn't always have the idea
in our heads that everything needed to be covered up
and that pantylines needed to be prevented and things like that.
Once upon a time in Victorian England, people wore a
(04:40):
lot of clothes. They had creneline and petticoats and all
this stuff, and it was very hard. If you've ever
worn a wedding dress or a prom dress and needed
to go to the bathroom, so many of both of
those many you are the twenty seven dress of the girl. Um,
it's it's hard to go to the bathroom. You you
need help, and so to make it easier to pop
(05:02):
a squat, Victorian ladies would wear bloomers that were kind
of baggy and um, they didn't have anything covering the crotch.
So you know, it served two purposes, uh, maybe three
if we get technical. One making it easier to go
to the bathroom too, it prevented things from getting to um,
(05:23):
it kept airflow going, yes, breathable right. And three well, uh,
they didn't take them off to go to bed, so
it made some other things very easy to like sex.
That's exactly what I'm saying, provides sexual access. Uh. It
kind of reminds me of back in the day when
they had uh, this is more like an eighties thing.
(05:44):
Remember Leotard's that had the snap crotches. Yeah, I've worn um.
I don't want to get too personal. I don't. I
mean a lot of you just don't know me. But
I have Warren spanks. If anyone's ever worn spanks dot
dot dot do they have a no cross? Oh I didn't.
I had no idea. It took away my dat dot
(06:04):
dot I had. But I would like to briefly touch
on the etymology of g string. This is coming from
William Sapphire and it goes back far, far earlier than
a lot of you might assume he found the earliest
instance of G string, and it was spelled g e
string all one word mentioned in the book Western Wilds
(06:28):
and the Men Who Redeemed Them by John H. Beadle
in eighteen seventies seven, and it was used to describe
a loincloth worn by some American Indians and some American
settlers who did not have that latent homophonic good for them. Um,
now after you've really interrupted me of talking about my
(06:49):
Victorian history, and now I mean it's it's interesting the
G string because well, I just wonder do you think
that's what carried through to the current gy string or
do you think there's a different reason that we call
it a string? Do you think it's all I guess
it all comes from the same place. Well, according to
that the New York Times article that WILLIAMS. Sapphire wrote,
looking at the G string, he seemed to think that
(07:12):
it goes all the way back here, there's a there's
a basic continuum. Interesting. I would like to point out
that just how common these crotchless bloomers were, and that
is that Queen Victoria had monogrammed crotchless bloomers and apparently
they were huge because she herself was not petite. But
(07:32):
in two thousand eight, a pair of her I'm gonna
say crotchless again, a pair of her crotchless bloomers went
for more than nine thousand pounds at auction, crotchless and monogrammed,
very fancy Victoria talking about Victoria's secret um. Now moving on,
Edwardian ladies wore longer pentaloons flash bloomers with strings tied
(07:53):
at the waist and knees, and they had loose crotches
and were made of cotton, so they were very loose
and breathable, didn't didn't constrict you in any way. And
moving even further forward into the nineteen twenties and thirties,
undy's in silk wall or very fine cotton had crotches
low enough not to get caught between your buttocks or labia,
(08:14):
so no one in the Roaring twenties was worried about cameltoe.
In the nineteen forties, underwear starts to get a little
more close fitting, as clothes do. The female silhouette starts
to making our glass shapes with my hands right now. Uh.
And then in nineteen forty sorry, in nineteen thirty nine,
(08:35):
New York Mayor fear Ello LaGuardia requested that the city's
exotic dancers dressed in a more appropriate manner. And so
they then, and this is ninety nine, they adopted the
thong as there as they're more acceptable stage garb because
they were still showing a lot, but not too much.
(08:55):
And that was one thing that I wasn't able to
find was the link between exotic dancing and stripping and
UH and thongs in the general public and sort of
how it grew out of that because a lot of
times there's that now it made the leap, Yeah, because
that's the explanation for like it started out thongs for
(09:17):
women at least, not the loin cloths for men. Thongs
for women started out in UH and strip joints. Well. Um,
there was a little bit written about how the thong
was adopted by and I don't know if this has
anything to do with its popularity now, but how it
was adopted by Brazilian dancers but for their festivals. You know, Um,
(09:38):
you see in like Carnival, you see pictures of these
women who were just you know, just gorgeously all dolled
up with feathers and glitter, and they're wearing like next
to nothing basically, and they wear thong. They tend to
wear thongs, so they have heard of them as tanga
tanga tanga and um. Fashion history would attribute the modern
thong to ru D gern Reich, who was a fashion
(10:02):
designer who introduced a thong as we know it today
in nineteen seventy four. And I believe this is also
attributed to the origin of everyday things. And he was
an Austrian fashion designer, very edgy, who invented the mono kinny,
which is a topless bakini, which is basically rudy underwear.
Just you reinvented underwear, you're brilliant. He clearly was just like,
(10:25):
how else can we get women on the beach not
wearing much? Oh no, those on that's not underwear, that's
a mono key And that's the closest I can get
to an Austrian accent. That's not at all anyway. Well,
I mean other people who popularize the thong, for better
or worse are Britney Spears, who I think it's blamed
(10:46):
for everything in society. Brett Britney Spears, there's a picture
of her horrifically wearing um a thong under leather chaps. Yes,
I'll never you can't unsee something, but it is not
just Britney Spear rs H. Scully. Julian Anderson was seen
on the Red carpet. If you google it, there's a
there's an image of her she wearing. She's wearing this
(11:08):
low backed dress with a the V A K A
whale tale sticking out prominently like it was obviously part
of It's like halfwere her back. I mean, yeah, her
dress is low cut, but I mean I I felt
on my back. I was like, okay, where is her thong?
Where is my Now? My underwears way below that, so
I think she pulled that up just for show. UM
(11:30):
and Victoria's Secret also had its first fashion show in nine,
which also helped launch the thong into prime time because
suddenly the undergarment fashion shows weren't anything new, but they
were usually private and an all female affair. But with
(11:51):
the Victoria's Secret fashion show, anybody could check out the
ladies stretting their stuff in thong underwear and whether that
is appropriate yet, I am not wont to say. There
are arguments over feminism and thongs, which are interesting. I
don't think there is an argument about you know, why
(12:12):
are you wearing certain types of underwear? Is it to
attract a man and be more sexually attractive, or is
it to make yourself feel better, et cetera. Well, especially
with the U, with the rise of the thong came
the lowering of the waistline. We have the muffin top. Yes,
we we have these super low rise jeans and your
(12:34):
and your thong that went with it, and the I
don't know, I guess trendy among certain groups. Trendy thing
to do was to to show flash or thong, and
I could see how something like that might not sit
that well with feminist ethics. Writer Natasha Stag posits that
(12:56):
it's okay for a feminist to wear a thong, but
is it okay for a thong to be representative of feminism?
And can a thong be representative of anti feminism? Well,
first of well, of course it's okay for a feminist
to wear a thong, because feminism is all about choice,
So you should be able to wear boy shorts, a
G string, a C string, even um, which I did
(13:17):
not know existed. No, there are no strings, but it's
just it's kind of like a large Maxi pad. That's
exactly what that's exactly what it looks like. Um. But
this whole issue of of whether we need underwear to
represent feminism, it seems also far reaching, right. Zoe Williams
(13:38):
of The Guardian in two thousand seven wrote that, in short,
just because you're a woman and something makes you feel good,
that doesn't necessarily add up to feminism. So yeah, I
guess she was. She had a big column about undergarments
and girdles and spanks and things like that that suck
you in and make you look better, and people who
say that you're not a feminist if you wear certain
(14:00):
types of undergarments to change your appearance. Well, there is
the whole thing of that that Stag points out about
how we feel the need to hide our panty lines
by creating the illusion of going underwear less. So we're
wearing underwear to make it look like we're not wearing
underwear and is it all that comfortable? And why are
(14:22):
we even doing that? Should penny lines be such a
big deal? Well, I mean, I think that argument is
kind of silly, just because when I wear a thong,
because I'm wearing nice pants to work or something. It's
not because I'm trying. I'm not trying to look like
I'm not wearing underwear. I'm just trying to make you
not look at my butt and see panty lines and
(14:44):
be like there is for underwear. I just, you know,
stop looking at my butt anyway. Jeez well. Jennifer Baumgartner
and Amy Richards, in an essay Feminism and Femininity or
How We Learn to Stop Worrying and Love the Thong,
wrote that they positive that the thong is symbolic of
young people's relationship to feminism, meaning that the relationship is
(15:08):
often personal, okay, invisible, sure, and uncomfortable. Okay, yeah, because
feminism We've talked about before on the podcast Feminism is
a is a tricky um term for some people to
self identify with because of all the baggage that might
come with it, correct and and perceptions of of or
(15:28):
fear of perceptions from other people of what's Saying that
you're a feminist will make you look like to other people,
maybe in the way that a visible bandylion or a
whale tale might make you. I might spur assumptions from
other people, But again, it's I just wonder when I'm
reading analysis like this, if we aren't putting too much
(15:51):
weight onto clothing. I think we I think we are.
I mean, in my opinion, I think it's a feminism argument.
Really did two thongs that sort of stilly? I understand
how you can look at a woman like, let's say
you're in a club or I don't know, on the
street even and a woman's underwear is purposely hanging out
to look provocative. I mean, I can see how maybe
(16:12):
there's an argument about like, but your underwear back in
your pants in respect yourself. But you know, if she
wants to wear underwear out and you know she's not
around small children whatever. Uh. I have mentioned whale tale
a number of times now, um, and would like to
offer this little little trivia nugget for you, Caroline us
(16:32):
Is reported an MSNBC. In two thousand five, the American
Dialectical Society voted. They did vote for truthiness that year
as the word of the year, but whale tail was
the most creative, beating out narrowly muffintop. Yeah, but it's
sort of funny that whale tail one most creative word
(16:53):
of the year. In two thousand five, since in two
thousand four the New York Times declare the thong passe
I can I just I want Okay, Look, I think
fashion discussions are ridiculous. I think I'm sorry if I
offend someone who is really into fashion. But I think
(17:14):
the way people talk about clothing, especially insiders. If you
call pants a pant, if you call jeans a gene,
I just think it's ridiculous. And so the this two
thousand four New York Times article is hysterical to me
because they take this discussion of the thong so seriously. Well,
because no one really from the articles that we read,
(17:38):
no one really wanted to get on board with the thong.
No one was like, hey, you know what's really cool
these days, thongs. It's New York Times, just from the
tone of the article already seems to think that thongs
are a touch trashy. And they quote Adam Lips, and
this is in two thousand four. He's the founder of
the lingerie line Adam and Eve, and he's as women
(18:01):
got tired of it, and they got sick and tired
of seeing string hanging out the top of every celebrity's jeans.
It's just gross. I think it went too far over
the edge and enough is enough, which I know so
much anger directed at one piece of cotton and elastic.
It's incredible, right, And then, uh, let's let's not leave
(18:22):
out Cosmo from this discussion. They joined the dialogue in
a couple of years later, they declare the thong dead.
And they say that with the invention of m v
p L's, which is I guess, non visible pantiline underwear,
there's no need for thongs. Stop sticking string up your
butt when you can wear a laser cut underwear, which
(18:43):
I have a pair, and they are fantastic, and they
are actually laser cut boy shorts, which all of these
articles mean crazy over boy short, love the boy short. Yeah.
They thought it was a great alternative to the thong
because it didn't ride up and give you a perma
weggy and um. And I think that people were more
comfortable with it because it didn't have the same sexual
(19:03):
implications as a thong did. For instance, going back to
that epic New York Times article, they wrote, the thong
underpant became a cultural touchstone, the very symbol of teas
and perhaps because of that, that's one reason why the
sale of thongs to tweens, which just skyrocketed in the
(19:25):
early and mid two thousand's, was very concerning for parents. Right.
I would like to point out that according to it
was It Time magazine, Yes, UM, sales of thongs to
tweens have quadrupled since two thousand to one point six
million according to n B n p D Fashion World.
(19:47):
That's a lot of underwear, a lot of stringy, shany
small underwear. Two young girls. And I don't know how
many of you have seen the YouTube clip about the store.
I cannot remember what's idiots in, but there was a
tween and teen store selling crotchless panties geared towards young girls. Yeah,
and there was. I think it was a couple of
(20:08):
years ago. Abercrombie and Fitch had to pull UM a
line of tween targeted underwear. I believe there were thongs
UM that had very provocative sayings on them because it
was just it crossed, It crossed the line. And I
remember sites like Jezebel and other feminist blogs UM raising
(20:29):
a big stink and they pulled it UM. Consumer consumer
outrage can can actually make things happen sometimes. But the
boy short, seems like it's the new it's the new thong.
And after Cosmopolitan published that two thousand ten article declaring
the thong dead over its salon, Sarah Heppola wrote sort
(20:52):
of um a homage to the thong and also asking
men if they would miss that kind of to where
if they really thought it was that super sexy. And
this was my favorite quote from one of the men
who all of them requests to remain anonymous, and she's
sort of funny, all of them, and that she interviewed
(21:12):
this one guy said to me, the thong is like
finna Greek. It's a particular spice, a good one, but
only appropriate at points and rarely on its own and
never meant to dominate a dish. And so Helpless says
that the thong became boring and played out, which reminded
me of the Flapper episode where apparently too many people
were doing too much petting in the back of cars
(21:34):
that one flapper so that it was just over with.
But similarly, I mean, you know that that Flapper was
like petting is being played out and jazz isn't going
to be cool here pretty soon. And she was very
wrong on both counts. Because people are still making out
and listening to jazz. So it's interesting that all these
people are declaring the thong dead because they're still sold. Well, obviously, yeah,
(21:56):
they'll they still make up a decent percentage of the
under garments sales because there is you know, they do
have a utilitarian purpose, but we're not seeing them purposefully exposed.
The whale tale. The whale tale, I think is is
certainly uh sunk oh the good and a lot of
(22:18):
people would argue there is good reason for that. There
is a hygiene argument, for sure. A lot of people
are concerned about a tiny piece of string in your
crotch causing infections. And while there's no definite link, like
definite proven link between um infections and wearing stringy underwear,
(22:38):
they say that there there are issues. Yeah, Columbia Universities
go ask Alice Advice column said that anecdotally, gonnacologists have
reported an increasing number of thongs wearers suffering from our
current u t s and vaginal infections because they think
that the the elastic or the cotton or the lycra
in your gluteal folds, which was a phrase that I learned,
(23:01):
which is a fancy scientific wave saying you're crack um
that it can serve as a conduit for bacteria. Yeah,
a lot of people used the subway car uh metaphor
for the thong picking up it's I mean it's close.
It's a close fitting strip of fabric and it can
easily pick up fecal matter and bacteria from the anus
(23:24):
and get you know, commute, it's commuting, it's on the
it's on the subway car. Here comes uh. And if
the thong moves, carry it towards the vagina and urinary
tract right, And it can also cause micro abrasions or
cracks in the skin, which you can leave those delicate
tissues more susceptible to infection. But again um web m
(23:44):
d points out that there still isn't any scientific proof
that there is a connection between U T I contraction
and wearing thongs. Well, the patients Encyclopedia get Ready of
urinary tract infection, sexual systietis, and interstitial systetis. It's quite
a title, recommends that you be user friendly and remove
(24:07):
your underwear when you were at home. So let's get
a breeze, air things out. And they want you to
be kind to your perennium. They say, keep air flowing
around it at all times. Practice good hygiene, yeah, exactly,
take a shower. Yeah, but but yeah, the the U
T I thong connection is not not proven, right, um,
(24:29):
but you know, as always change your underwear every day,
take care of stuff down there. So I think that
the you know, the thong has seen its day, I
would say, And now it seems like we're we're in
the time of the boy short. And Helen Fisher, an
anthropologist UM who has also done a ton of research
on the the science of attraction and love, says that
(24:53):
it makes a lot of sense that the boy short
is more popular because, in a way, keeping things more
covered can be more erotic and alluring because it leaves
more to the imagination. But by the time you're in
your underwear in front of someone, I mean, is it
gonna stay out for very long? Does it matter what
under your underwear you're wearing. Well, that's a question that
(25:15):
we can post the listeners, because I certainly don't know.
I would like to know from people and uh if
if yeah, I mean, does it doesn't matter? Are we
putting too much weight onto these very small pieces of
cloth that can get very expensive. Yeah, they can silly,
So let us know what you think. Experiences with thongs,
(25:37):
with the boy shorts, with the whale tails, all of it.
Send us your thoughts. Mom stuff at how all stuff
works dot com. And I have an email here in
response to our podcast Ongoing Gray and this is from Nadine,
who is living in Taiwan and studying Mandarin Chinese. Very cool,
Nadine um. She said, I was reminded of my history
(25:58):
teacher from high school. He was young and full and
had a full head of gray hair, and I thought
that it was so strange. I've always associated gray hair
with really old people. I asked him why he had
gray hair, and he took it really well. He told me,
in the words of King Solomon, gray hair is a
crown of glory. You get it by having a righteous life,
and that probably means you have a lot of wisdom.
(26:19):
Maybe if people see your gray hair, meaning mine, they'll
think you're very wise and live a good life. I
hope that makes you feel better about the gray hairs
that you find. Thank you. I will imagine myself a king. Excellent.
This email is from Mariah. It's about our sex ed
series or set um she says. I am a junior
(26:40):
in high school and every year since sixth grade we
have had a unit on sexuality and HIV AIDS. These
units lasted between one and three weeks, depending on what
gray you're in. Obviously, the unit in high school is
the longest and most comprehensive, going over every STD in
great detail. We were taught back in sixth grade how
to use a condom and how pregnancy and STDs work.
(27:00):
In fact, abstinence was rarely discussed. The only time it
was mentioned was when at the end of the unit
the teacher would say that abstinence was the only way
to fully prevent pregnancy and disease. I didn't realize that
this was not the case for all schools. Now. The
interesting thing is our high school has one of the
highest rates of team pregnancy in the United States. There's
usually at least five girls at any given time who
(27:21):
were pregnant, which is really saying something considering that this
is a pretty small town. I thought this would be
something you guys would be interested in hearing. Yeah. I
didn't have a chance to get back to her and
ask her which small town it is, but um, yeah, interesting.
So again, if you have thoughts to send our way.
You can email us at Mom's Stuff at how stuff
(27:42):
works dot com, or you can head over to our
page on the Facebook, or you can hit us up
on Twitter at mom Stuff Podcast. And you can also
check out what we're doing during the week over the
blog It's stuff Mom Never told You from how Stuff
Works dot com. Be sure to check out our new
(28:03):
video podcast, Stuff from the Future. Join how Staff Work
staff as we explore the most promising and perplexing possibilities
of tomorrow. The hou Stepp Works iPhone app has arrived.
Download it today on iTunes. Brought to you by the
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