Who is Hillary Clinton?

Hillary Clinton has been one of the most successful women in American politics, but ever since she became the First Lady of Arkansas, people have both loved and loathed her. Cristen and Caroline travel back in time to look at what shaped Hillary, how the press has treated her and what it means to be a powerful woman in the public eye.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
I am Scott and I'm Ben and we're from car Stuff.
We're the podcast that covers everything that flutes, flies, swims,
or drives, adventures, thrills, chills literally, planes, trains and automobiles.
That's right. And you can find all of our episodes
on Google Play, Spotify, iTunes, and really anywhere else you
get your podcast. Welcome to Stuff, Mom Never told you.

(00:25):
From how stupp works dot com. Hello and welcome to
the podcast. I'm Kristen and I'm Caroline. And today, as
we announced on social media, actually a while back, we're
talking about Hillary Clinton. Yeah, I'm I'm excited. I am

(00:48):
glad that we are taking this opportunity to apply our
sminty research. We're putting on our research caps two. Mine
has sequence on it. Um actually minds like a floppy
sun hat. Does it have a feather No, No feathers,
just like a straw hat. Like the kind of word
the beach, because I wish that I was at the
beach right now. Because your future so bright, you gotta

(01:10):
wear a floppy sun love it. Um. But we wanted
to put on our very sminty esque research caps today
to apply that um rigorous approach to Hillary Clinton, because
I know there was a little bit of trepidation that
we would maybe, like just deliver a puff piece. But

(01:30):
when have you known us besides maybe the Dad Bods
episode to deliver a puff piece. Oh, I think the
Dad Boss was not a puff piece. It was maybe
a puffy piece o puff pastry. And some people were,
you know, a little curious as to why we would
even talk about her. I mean, she's obviously you know,

(01:51):
she can be a polarizing figure. But the fact of
the matter is Hillary Clinton, hands down, is the most
successful woman in the history of American politics. I think
it would be really hard to argue that she's not.
And since she became the first Lady of Arkansas in
nineteen nine, people have both loved and loathed her, and

(02:14):
we want to emphasize that in this episode. We're not
trying to convince you to feel one way or the
other about her, because y'all is America, um. And also
it's just not our job, UM. And we also want
to let you know at the top of the podcast
that we cannot cover every single detail of her life
because there is a lot. I mean, she's done a lot,

(02:35):
but there's also been so much written about her, whether
it's books, academic articles with words in them, so many words,
so many words. UM. So for the purpose of this episode,
we are not going to be talking about her in
the current campaign. No, we're not going to talk about

(02:56):
her current platform, her going up against Bernie Sanders, how
she might fare against an opponent in the general election,
none of that. We're not even really going to talk
about two thousand and eight, her running against Obama. UM.
We are focusing on the Hillary Clinton and really the
Hillary Rodham. UM that I as you know, someone who

(03:19):
was very young when she was coming up in politics, UM,
the part of her that might not be as familiar
to listeners, younger listeners. UM. And yes, I do you
know count people our age as younger, um, because we
will always be young at heart. Well and especially and
I really do not mean this in a disparaging manner whatsoever,

(03:39):
trust me, especially going off of the response we got
to our Anita Hill episode where people our age and
younger were like, whoa, whoa, WHOA what? I didn't even
know the full ex Either I didn't know or I
didn't know the full extent. And so we sort of
hope to apply that treatment to to Hillary Rodham Clinton
as well and fill you in and on basically how

(04:02):
she got on the path that she has been on
essentially her entire life. Yeah, so we're going to focus
on her pre Lewinsky scandal biography, um, and also the
public perception around that, because we want to focus obviously
on the facts of her life, um, and how the

(04:24):
facts of her how her facts of life you take
the good, you take the bad, the facts machine, the
fact not like the fact that, yes that all of
her facts is um not her emails though. Uh. And
we want to talk about how um, her facts of
life now, I just want to hear that theme song

(04:45):
um uh have been kind of filtered through the press
machine and influence public perception. So in other words, we
we want to talk about how Hilary Diane Roddam became
Hillary Rodham Clinton and how the press has played the
so called gender card. Yeah. I'm going to get the

(05:08):
gender tarot card deck dred Our gender card future. Yeah, man,
I'm very nervous about my salary. Um. But the quote
unquote gender card is a huge factor in our conversation
because the very way that she has been covered as
just a person, a politician, a wife, a mother, a
lover of headbands. You know, for forty years now has

(05:31):
been so hyper gendered, and um, since this is stuff
I never told you, that is really what we're most
interested in because I think it says a lot to
all of us, regardless of where we stand politically or
um our station in life. Um, it says a lot
about our cultural climate as it relates to ambitious, career

(05:56):
driven women. Yeah, and ambitious career drive and women who
are even different from the rest. So for instance, Hillary
Clinton not necessarily conforming to the way that a woman
is supposed to work or be professional. Oh yeah, I mean.
And also, before we get further into our conversation, I

(06:18):
want to thank all of the stuff whenever told you
listeners who sent us voice memos sharing their thoughts on Hillary,
because this is a conversation that we wanted to to
invite you all into. We want your literal voices in
this because, um, you know, there are so many different
opinions about her out there. So with that, let's talk

(06:40):
about Hills. Let's talk about Hillary. Diane Rodham now Hillary
Rodham Clinton, Um, who, by the way, I thought I
thought this was notable, Caroline, that despite all of the
mixed opinions that are absolutely out there about her. She
has been gallop polls most of my tired Woman in
America for twenty years running. And the fact of the

(07:04):
matter is, folks, when we look at her bio, there
is a lot to genuinely admire. Yeah, listener ray and
certainly thinks so, and she wishes more people talked about it.
I love Hillary Clinton because she's one of the most
accomplished women in the world in many different areas. She's

(07:24):
had tons of different experiences and proven her commitment to
working her off. It's hard to love Hillary Clinton though,
because we never get to talk about her in that way,
because of all of the sexist bullshit that people don't
like women as much when they talk about their own accomplishments.

(07:45):
She's a fascinating figure, and it starts with the fact
that her name is inspired by explorer Edmund Hillary. I
love that. I didn't know that. This This episode is
honestly full of stuff I didn't know. Um. But she
was born October Cargo. She was the first of three
children to Hugh and Dorothy Rodham and her It was

(08:07):
pretty conservative family. Her dad owned a drapery fabric business,
and she grew up in the suburbs. Her mom was
a homemaker but very driven and very driven to see
her daughter be driven. Yeah. And her mom, as uh,
Hillary has talked about a lot, especially more recent years, UM,
was a huge influence in I mean really just shaping

(08:30):
her personality in her drive. UM. During the two thousand
and eight election, for instance, Hillary described her mother as
a woman who quote never got a chance to go
to college, who had a very difficult childhood, but who
gave me a belief that I could do whatever I
set my mind to. UM. And Dorothy was tough, I

(08:51):
mean this woman. She also grew up in really tough circumstances. Um.
She had to leave home I think because of abuse
when she was fifteen and essentially was supporting herself as nanny,
I want to say. Um. And when Hillary was but
four years old, she comes home after some neighborhood girls

(09:13):
had bullied her and she was really upset about it.
And um. Hillary writes in her autobiography Living History that
her mom said, you have to stand up for yourself
because there is no room in this house for cowards.
And I had read that quote somewhere in some article
that was talking about this very topic. And I was like, oh,

(09:36):
that's say that's a good Um, that's a good sentiment.
I can appreciate that coming from a parent, not realizing
it was said to a four year old. He was
but then but then apparently so she you know, takes
Dorothy's advice and goes out, and um, I guess kind
of like stands up for herself. And the next time
she comes home she says, Mom, I can play with
the boys now. I know, I know. There are a

(09:58):
lot of moments when in her her upbringing that you're like,
she can play with the boys now, such as Dorothy's
big dreams for little Hillary. Um. This has been noted
in a number of her bios that her mom suggested,
I mean she kind of dreamed like this was her
vicarious dream for Hillary, that she become the first female

(10:21):
Supreme Court justice. I love that. No, it's no small potato, yeah,
I know, no pressure of pressure. Um. But we should
also note too that Dorothy and Hugh were decidedly Republican. Yeah,
yeah they weren't. I mean, she wasn't being raised as
a politically liberal, um little girl, which might be surprising
to some, But she Hillary not Dorothy Hillary did get

(10:46):
sort of an early splash of cold water when it
comes to sexism at just twelve years old, thanks to NASA. Yeah,
she writes in her book A Living History. How you know,
I'm not I'm not any less capable than the dudes.
But when she was twelve and she was totally consumed
with space race fever, she writes to NASA volunteering to

(11:09):
become an astronaut, which I don't I don't want to
like be sound patronizing or anything, but that's like the
cutest that's like the cutest things I have volunteer a
volunteer as tribute to be an astronaut, but they rejected
her based on her gender. And she wrote that it
was the first time I hit an obstacle that I
couldn't overcome with hard work and determination. And I was outraged.

(11:33):
And that was something Caroline that jumped out to me.
This like just disbelief that there was something that her
hard work and determination, as she described it, like couldn't solve.
And it's going to be something too that she is
going to come you know, kind of uh run full
speed into once she becomes more involved in politics later

(11:55):
in life. Um, but in Living History she describes um
that kind of sex awakening to sexism as a quote
unquote click moment, like the light bulb went on of
oh it is. It's it's kind of a rare thing
that I'm being raised to um to be to consider
myself as capable as the boys, because the world at

(12:18):
large isn't necessarily like that. And I love that because that,
you know, you don't hear about a lot of families
of that air raising their girls necessarily. I'm not saying
all families obviously, not the families hashtag, not all families,
but I mean, I just that warms my little, cold
dead heart whenever I hear any family from any air

(12:38):
raising their little girl to be just as capable and
confident as their sons. Yeah. And she always expected to
go to college, you know she because in that era,
of course, it would have been perfectly acceptable for her
to graduate from high school and get her quote unquote
mrs degree. Um. But she was like, no, no, no, no,

(12:58):
I want to do things with my life like being
astronaut a weight I can't NASA. So we have her
awakening to the reality of sexism UM at fifteen. A
few years later, she has what she sided as her
awakening to injustice when she hears Martin Luther King Jr. Speak.

(13:19):
But this wasn't the first time she had basically been
around viewpoints of people from different backgrounds. UM. In interview
with Newsweek, Hillary attributed her sense of social responsibility to
her parents and a Methodist youth minister who took her
youth group to migrant farming communities where the kids would
babysit for the families when the parents had to go

(13:41):
work long hours and they would just talk with the
teen So as a teenager, Hillary was no stranger to
people who were of different backgrounds than herself, and she
cites that as really planning the seeds for UM, the
research and work that she would do around poverty and
children's issues. UM. In high school, no surprise, she was

(14:03):
a terrific student. I mean, Hillary was kind of a
Tracy flick without a UM, and she's still perceived in
a lot of ways as a Tracy flick UM for
any people out there who have seen Election, UM, the
movie Election, not like the election happening right now. But
she served on student council, she headed up her high

(14:24):
school's Republican club and debated the Democrat Club naturally, and
she was also the vice president of the National Honor Society,
in addition to a bunch of other extracurriculars that she
participated in. UM and BuzzFeed News dug up her senior yearbook,
and one of the things that they found in it

(14:47):
was a column that she wrote for the school newspaper,
pretending that she was interviewing her future self So Tracy
flick Um so Hill or in her like future Hillary
was already a successful lawyer. Um. And she said, though,
at the very end of this fake interview um, that

(15:11):
her post high school goal was to quote Mary's senator
and settled down in Georgetown. And half of me was like,
oh you old jokes, or the other half is like,
maybe he knows. She could have very well could have
been serious, because that's almost what happened. Yeah, almost, And
you wonder, I do wonder. Yeah, it was she downplaying

(15:32):
it her ambition or was this I don't know, Hillary,
you listening? What what was what was the fake you
Phillipson really thinking? Yeah, exactly. Um. So, no big surprise
that she snagged a scholarship to Wellesley, where she started

(15:53):
college in nine five and she majored again, no big
surprise in political science. Yeah, and she came to college
having been raised in a Republican household. She came to
college as a Republican who campaigned for Barry Goldwater. But
she evolved politically, which is not surprising. If you're a

(16:13):
human person, your views do tend to evolve as you
get older, especially in college. Oh. Man, I remember the
what was it two thousand four election when I was
in college and going home, and like, oh, I was
so fired up to talk to my parents about my
political awakening, shaking my my finger in the air. Yeah,

(16:36):
I managed to convince my mother to change her vote
from who to who, from Bush to Carry. Very impressive, Caroline. Yeah,
I was in a UM. I was in a History
of Foreign Relations class, and I explained UM modernization theory
to her. Yeah, I was far less successful. My parents

(16:57):
just kind of laughed and said that I would change
my mind when I was older. Surprised it hasn't happened. Um.
But Yeah, when she gets to college, she is involved
in like Republican student organizations, but like you said, she
kind of has a political awakening UM and organizes the

(17:17):
school's first Vietnam War teaching, and Um ends up supporting
Eugene McCarthy, who was running on a very anti Vietnam
War platform. Yeah. And in nineteen sixty eight, after Martin
Luther King's assassination, she worked with fellow black students to
organize a two day strike to recruit more students and

(17:41):
tutors of color. So clearly that fifteen year old Hillary
who first saw MLK speak, clearly, fifteen year old Hillary
is still there. Um. And she wrote her senior thesis
on poverty and community development. And in nineteen six nine,
when she gradually waits, she was valedictorian of her class

(18:02):
and president of student government and became Wellesley's first student
commencement speaker. Um. And the students essentially got together and
we're like, Hillary, you should be the one to speak UM, which,
looking back, UM, it's like, well, who else would you pick?
And she was wearing her her big framed glasses were like, UM,

(18:24):
that would now be very uh Warby Parker esque, and
her hair up and this was something I had no
idea about her. Um. She delivers this speech, following up
Republican Senator Edward Brooke, who was the first African American
elected to the Senate, and Um, I guess he was

(18:46):
a little a little more um down with the war
and things that were going on, um than her and
the student body. So she gets up and makes this
speech that may the June nineteen sixty nine issue of
Life magazine, they did this whole pictorial of I want

(19:07):
to say, like five or six other students who were
graduating that year. It was simply titled the Class of
sixty nine. And um, you know, because this is the
time when all of these kids are being almost radicalized
in a way, because you have Vietnam and uh, the
sexual revolution and civil rights, all of these things happening. Um.

(19:28):
And that Life magazine spread was also the source of
the photo, the social media photo that we posted announcing
that we were going to do this episode where she
has the long hair and the big framed glasses and
those striped pants and sandals that I realized, um, look
like the ones I'm wearing right now. Uh. Um. And

(19:51):
when we posted that photo, Carolina, like half of the
comments were, UM, wonderful stuff I've ever told you fans saying,
I know I'm not supposed talk about her clothes, but
those pants are divide. That's totally fine. You can comment
on how much you like someone stripe pants. Um. Yeah.
She her speech was was fascinating to me, not only

(20:13):
for like the content, which was obviously interesting, but the
fact that she is so savvy that she was able
to dedicate the first part of her speech to addressing
things that Edward Brookes said. You know, She's not like
she was going after him, but she was like, I
can't delve into this topic that I've decided to pick

(20:33):
for today without first addressing some of the senator's comments.
And I'm just like, I was picturing myself in college,
and I was like, well, first of all, I was
drunk all the time, so I don't know how successful
I would have been. But h for her to be
able to just so calmly and coherently, which is where
the difference with me would come in, just address his

(20:55):
speech and what he said to her students in a
way that just like drove her point home before then
transitioning into the speech that she had prepared, I was
just like, you were so impressive. Yeah, I mean, like
it it takes a politician to be able, like a
natural born politician to be able to get up and
improvise like that. Yeah, that's exactly what I thought. Um,
but I do want to read from the last bit

(21:19):
of her speech, which is also um the inscription in
Rebecca Tracer's book Big Girls Don't Cry, which is all
about Hillary Clinton and the two thousand and eight campaign. Um,
so Hillary nine standing up there with her big frame,
glasses and up to and graduation. Roban said, one of

(21:41):
the most tragic things that happened yesterday, a beautiful day,
was that I was talking to a woman who said
that she wouldn't want to be me for anything in
the world. She wouldn't want to live today and look
ahead to what it is she sees because she's afraid.
Fear is always with us, but we just don't have
time for it. Not now. I mean talking about like

(22:02):
a passionate young woman who's like ready to go out
into the world. And like in part of that speech too,
she says like is echoing the sentiments of a lot
of young people at the time, which is just complete
and total dissatisfaction with the kind of establishment at large
and the way that you know, things were working out,

(22:22):
the people who were making all the decisions. Yeah, well,
I think that comment is particularly poignant today because you
don't hear too many politicians and I'm speaking about nine
Hillary like she's already a politician, but she kind of
was Um. But you don't hear too many politicians addressing
that that fear factor. And I think you have to

(22:43):
because fear is what leads to anti trans bathroom bills,
fear is what leads to quote unquote religious liberty bills
in places like Mississippi, and so I just think it's
really spectacular that as such a young woman she would
be addressing that. She was like, there's no room for fear.
We've got to plow ahead and change the world. Like

(23:04):
we can't just sit around and be afraid of this.
We've got to go out and do well. And something
that also echoes her um politician in training, whether she
was cognizant of it or not at the time, was
her reaction to the Life magazine piece and the and
the media coverage around her commencement speech because Um the photographer.

(23:26):
The Life magazine photographer noted Um on one of her
photos he was just like taking notes and said that
she was nervous about people kind of thinking that she
was attacking Brooks I mean she was kind of already
thinking about public perception and wanting to be more of
a centrist and not ruffle feathers too much. Um. So

(23:50):
that was kind of like another early hint of maybe
what was to come. But after Wellesley, she heads off
to Yale Law School, where she was one of thirty
six women in a class of two seven. And I
gotta say, like, at this point, so she's at Yale
Law School, I mean, Dorothy has to be pumped. She's like,
there's hills. She's on her way to the Supreme Court bench. Yeah, exactly.

(24:13):
And then she meets a guy who's bragging about how
big watermelons are in Arkansas. It's all Bill Clinton. Yeah,
and I love that, say she she stalks up to
him in the library one day and it's like, listen,
if you're gonna keep looking at me and I'm going
to keep looking back, we at least ought to know
each other. And that's that's how they met. I mean,

(24:33):
very appropriate that she made the first move totally, um,
But we're not joking about the whole watermelon thing. She was.
I think that was also in the Newsweek interview. She
was like this, this guy, this returning Rhodes scholar who
was always talking about how big the watermelons were in Arkansas. UM,
and as has been emphasized many times, UM, they were

(24:57):
kind of inseparable from that point on. But law school
was not just about romance. Hillary kept busy. Aside from
bill Um, she was on the Yale Review of Law
and Social Action. She worked at the Yale Child Studies Center.
She took on cases of child abuse while volunteering at

(25:19):
the New Haven Legal Services Clinic. She also researched the
problems of migrant workers, going back to her teen experience
with her youth group. She researched the problem of migrant
workers as part of Walter Mondale's Subcommittee on Migrant Labor,
which echoes her UM experiences as a teenager with UM

(25:39):
her youth group. And in her postgrad year she continued
her work setting kids in medicine and served as the
staff attorney for the Children's Defense Fund in Cambridge. And
that chunk of info is coming courtesy of PBS, that's right,
and that's of course a child advocacy group, which I
think not only echoes her experience as a teen babysitting

(26:01):
for the children of migrant workers. But I think it
also echoes echoes her and mother's experience, her mother having
overcome abuse and um striking out on her own at
such a young age, and having to be a child
who has to sort of fend for herself. I think
that that also shaped a lot of what Hillary was

(26:21):
doing in terms of sticking up for kids and later
advocating for laws around child emancipation. Well, not to mention
that Bill clinton stepfather was abusive. That's him. Yeah. So
speaking of Bill Clinton, uh. In nineteen four, post graduation,
their long distance relationship commences because Bill heads back to

(26:43):
Arkansas to be with his massive watermelons. Um it sounds
like such a euphemism. Womp, Let me say that, No,
I don't think he should. Uh sad drumbone. Uh. And
Hillary meanwhile rolls out to d C to work on

(27:07):
the impeachment inquiry staff, advising the House Committee on the
Judiciary during Watergate, so she was essentially like digging through
all of Nixon's tapes and kind of helping put together
the case against him. Um. And after Watergate went down,
Hillary's job ended, so she had to make the choice

(27:30):
of what to do next. Do you go settle down
in Georgetown, find that senator, or do you go chase
Bill Clinton's watermelons. Don't go chase, don't go chase watermelons.
Please stick to the senator. You thought you would admit
every Yeah, I mean, not necessarily, please stick to the senator.

(27:54):
But like, this is a major this is a major
point in her life. This is her crossroad like the
movie starring Britney Spears, like the movie Crossroads. Um So again,
we're gonna keep referencing this Newsweek interview and just like
media coverage of her in because it's some of the

(28:14):
most um I would say unguarded Hillary Clinton that you
could see. I mean, she would have these extensive interviews
that are I wouldn't say rare now but are less
orchestrated well. And and you also get the sense from
a lot of those early interviews that she's no nonsense.

(28:34):
And I don't mean that in like a sassy like
I'm giving her a free path sort of way. I
just literally mean that when you look at some of
the questions that interviewers asked her back then, a lot
of them were like so idiotic and so baiting, and
her answers are very like no, what or yeah, of
course she's very like you know, I almost sense and

(28:55):
this is totally me projecting, but I almost sense like
a yearning for someone to ask her us art question. Yeah,
but I mean because she's brilliant, you know, and she's
very matter of fact as well. Um, but I wanted
to to mention how she described to Newsweek, the decision
that she made to go to Arkansas, the ways that
she turned when she arrived at her Britney Spirits cross roads,

(29:19):
because um, she wasn't a girl but maybe not yet
a woman, let's say. Um but in nine four, you know,
Bill proposes and Hillary Clinton says that he said, I know,
this is a really hard choice because I'm committed to
living in Arkansas. And I'd say, yeah, it's a really

(29:39):
hard choice. And I just finally decided, you know, this
is no way to make a decision when you love somebody.
You just have to go and see what it's like.
So I moved to Arkansas and started teaching at the
law school. And I think I've had a more interesting
time of it than I would if I had chickened
out and not followed my heart. And thinking of Hillary

(30:00):
Clinton talking about following her heart is also like was
a standout moment for me reading about the stuff of
like whoa like It's it's just such a I don't know,
It's not the type of phrasing that I would associate
with her. No, I don't think a lot of people
because everyone you know, uh talks about how you know,
she's very calculating and strategic, and you wouldn't think about,

(30:25):
you know, following one's heart, especially not to Arkansas. Yeah,
she does in that interview talk about how a lot.
She very diplomatically discusses how her East Coast and Midwest
friends and family were like Arkansas, what are you even
gonna do there? And she was. She said she was
obviously very pleased to find that she could establish a

(30:47):
place for herself there professionally well. And she said that
she liked it too, the experience of living in a
small town where everybody knows your name. We did not
know that this was going to be the musical episode
of stuff one never tall years. I'm fine with it.
But she really made small town Arkansas because they weren't
in little Rocket first. She made it sound like, um
just kind of like a big cheers where you know,

(31:10):
people waves say hello, um, know your name, and that
was the pivotal moment really in her life. I mean,
this sets the stage for Hillary Rodham to become Hillary Clinton,
which is not going to happen when she gets married.
And we're going to talk about that when we come
right back from a quick break. You know that feeling

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enter stuff. Well so in Hillary and Bill get married
and fun fact which I didn't know that her mom
basically had to drag her to the store to buy

(32:38):
address like a couple of days before they got married. Yeah,
it was a super low key wedding. Also, weddings in
ve we're way more low key in general than weddings
these days. I am saying that a week before I'm
getting married, So I'm a little biased right now, But yeah,
I mean it was just like, um, I think it
was at their home, um, in their backyard, and she

(33:00):
was like, yeah, I just like went and found a
dress and you know, no big deal. They get married.
I want to say that, Um. Bill Clinton's mom was
not super into her new daughter in law. UM. But
no matter, Bill and Hills in it to win it. Um.
She starts out teaching at the University of Arkansas's law school,

(33:22):
where I think Bill was also teaching, and as you
would imagine, Hillary had the reputation for being a super
tough professor and um did not mind handing out sees,
whereas Bill was like, oh, y'all, I'll give you all.
He gives all of them a watermelon. You'll just get

(33:43):
try this watermelon. You see how big this is? So
through nine, Hillary Clinton directs the University of Arkansas. I
legally aig nick, but in the spring of backing up
a little bit, while helming that legal clinic, a judge

(34:07):
assigns her to defend a forty one year old indigent
man accused of raping a twelve year old girl. So
you can imagine, with her background in advocating for children,
that this is a difficult spot. She asked to be
removed from the case, but the court denied her request,
and in a move that has been brought up multiple

(34:28):
times and criticized since then, she ended up submitting the
girl to a psychological test in order to challenge her credibility,
which is admittedly not cool, but it was part of
the job. Yeah. So, I mean, because Hillary was a
really good lawyer. M her client still went to jail,

(34:50):
but on lesser charges. And soon after that, it's pretty
notable that Hillary and some friends got together and started
the area's first rape crisis center, which apparently was one
of the first rape crisis centers in the US. Yeah.
I was reading a column by UH, an advocate for

(35:11):
rape survivors who had formerly worked with Hillary Clinton, and
she talked about how she was trying to set up
a similar thing in Atlanta around the same time, and
was told by numerous people like, well, Hillary Rodham is
the person that you got to talk to if you
want to do anything like this, because she just again
like ploid ahead and and made it happen and was

(35:33):
sort of a shining example of how to do it
if you wanted to set up a crisis center and
quickly speaking to the time that all of this was
happening professionally for her. One of the reasons why the
judge turned down her request to not take the case
was because they specifically wanted a woman representing this guy,

(35:55):
and Hillary was already the top of the legal field
in general. But they were also not that many lady
lawyers at the time to choose from, so they were like, no,
you gotta, you gotta take this case. Um. So, while
it does, it does not excuse the shady legal practices
that went down. Um, some good came out of it,

(36:16):
which I think is important to take into account. Um.
The next year, in nineteen seventy six, Bill Clinton is
elected to Attorney General of Arkansas, and this is when
they moved to Little Rock. And this is also when
Hillary transitions out of Academia and into the Rose Law Firm,

(36:36):
where she would eventually become the firm's first female partner. Um,
and she's just like working and she's super busy. She's
like on all of these boards. Um. She was also
the first woman on Walmart's board. Uh. And she's the breadwinner.
Hands down. Bill is not making that much money as
Attorney General. And she was like, well, you know, that's fine,

(36:57):
making plenty of money at Rose. It's fine. I'm bringing
him the bacon and winning the bread. And in the
following year, she co founds Arkansas Advocates for Children and Families,
which is the same year that President Carter appointed her
as the first woman to lead the Legal Services Corporation,
which was a federal program dedicated to expanding legal aid access.

(37:22):
And under her guidance, the the that Corporation, so to speak, exploded.
They got so much more in funding, and we're super
successful under her under her watch. I wonder if she
and Supreme Court Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg have like similar
uh needs for no sleep? Yeah right, you know what
I mean, like this, and she doesn't have a kid

(37:44):
at this point, and I'm I still don't understand how
she would have any time to sleep. Um No, I
mean because like just you know, you and I both
have lawyer friends, and and and I you know, we
watched television. I've seen Matt Law, and so we know
kind of how much work it takes to make partner
It takes a long time. I watched Better Call Saul.

(38:06):
I've seen what it took for Mirandon sex and to
make partner braces. And um. So yeah, the fact that
she was working those incredibly long hours and still was
on all these boards and fulfilling all these other obligations
and on all of these freaking committees and stuff. I mean, yeah,
I mean I like sleep too much. I mean I
hate the sentiment of like, how does she do it? No?

(38:28):
But I mean if seriously, yeah, we could be talking
about anybody and I would be like, no, literally, when
do you sleep and eat the sandwiches? When when does
that happen? Um? And in Bill is elected Arkansas governor,
he would go on to serve five terms total. But
Arkansas residents weren't so sure about this Hillary Rodham character,

(38:53):
this professional lawyer lady who was the first first lady
to keep working and she did keep her name. Yeah,
I mean that was one thing we didn't mention when
she got married. She was like, yeah, let's get married. Uh,
I'm not going to change my name. Um. And Bill
would talk about that later because the whole name change thing.

(39:16):
And again I'm saying, this is a woman who's getting
married next week. Um, the whole name change thing is
something that has followed her throughout her political career. It
really has, it really has. Um. And in one interview
with Bill I think in the early nineties, maybe with
his first presidential campaign, of course he was asked about
it because it was just assumed that it was like

(39:37):
very masculating for him. Um. And he was like, no, no,
she she wanted to do that. So she was nine
years old. Okay, I'm sorry, I'll stop at Bill Clinton.
It's just kind of fun. Um. But yeah, I mean,
of course he didn't care, you know, And it was
something that um, she always knew that she would do. Um.

(39:59):
But the Arkansans Arkanson's Arkansans, Arkansas. People in Arkansas has
know how how you are referred to properly because I'm
sure in butchering it, um arks the Arkansans Is, We're
not the only people side dyeing her because I mean
she's professional. She and professional in sense of like she's

(40:21):
still working at this law firm. She is I mean
obviously very driven. She really does not care to play
the part of a ceremonial first lady in terms of
the glitz and the glam um. And of course she's
Hillary Rodham and not Hillary Clinton. And the national press

(40:42):
followed suit. Uh. The New York Times reported that the
new governor was quote married to an ardent feminist, Hillary Rodham,
who will certainly be the first lady of Arkansas to
keep her married name. And the Associated Press, in reporting
on how the new first Lady of Arkansas was this
this feminist who kept her own name when she got married, uh,

(41:06):
they made sure to mention that that Bill had said
that listen, you know, she's actually a lot more traditional
than than folks would would guess. And that's been another
narrative that's followed her throughout her political career too, of
like you don't have to be scared of her. She uh,
you know, she's actually she actually more conservative than you
might think, which is actually like kind of true in

(41:28):
a lot of ways. In a profile piece on her
in the Arkansas Democrat, here's plain speaking Hillary before she's
kind of been put through the press wringer. She said, listen,
I need to maintain my interests in my commitments because
I need my own identity to which is not a
radical thought. I mean, I mean I would like everyone

(41:49):
to stop from him and close her eyes and just
think about that. Like, of course, you want your own identity.
You don't want to like absorb yourself into your spouse
or whoever h and become like a ghost of yourself.
Speak for yourself. Is there? I can't wait for ghost Kristen. Yeah,
recording is gonna get real weird. Um, Christen, are you there?
I just see a floating Denham jacket? Ask my husband. Um.

(42:14):
But it's funny when you filter that very non controversial,
non radical statement through the press, it just becomes like
a lightning rod. Oh yeah. Um. Well. And we should
also note too that it was a few months after
that profile came out when she was like, oh listen,
I'm gonna do me y'all. Uh. That's when she made

(42:35):
partner at Rose Law firm UM, and she was also
serving as chair of the Rural Health Advisory Committee UM.
That bill appointed her to UM, which provided healthcare to
rural areas. So we're already seeing the foundation laid for
a lot of the platforms that she would champion throughout

(42:55):
her political career in terms of poverty, children, and healthcare.
And listener Will called in with his thoughts about Hillary Clinton.
I think I can make a parent where I stand
on this issue by recounting that when I met Kristen
and Caroline in l A. I spent a solid three
or four minutes waxing eloquent on my admiration for Hillary Clinton. Similarly,

(43:20):
it is apparent that there's little that can be said
that hasn't already been said about her public perception, and
that is precisely the point. She has been subject to
untold scrutiny beyond many other public figures, not just in
the twenty five years since her husband campaign for president,
but going all the way back to his time as

(43:40):
the governor of Arkansas, a time when one of his
Republican opponents made a central theme of his campaign the
fact that Hillary Clinton was at the time known as
Hillary Rodham. She was, in many ways the first woman
in her position, a position of such prominence and eventual power,

(44:00):
to take such a such an explicit stand on second
wave feminist issues, and that first step made her a
threat to so much, and as such was subject to
that scrutiny, to that attack, and to a difficult time
in the public sphere to say the least for so long.

(44:24):
But I can say honestly that having survived for that
long and to this day still championing many progressive causes
despite the claims to the contrary that others may make,
that on its own is evidence that too. To say
it shortly and bluntly, Hillary Clinton really does kick butt.

(44:47):
And in we've I mean, we've already told you she
makes partner, but in eighty Chelsea is born. So just
think about that too. The same year that she's put
in all of that work to make partner, she also
has a child. And I think that's incredible for how
often you and I have talked about like mommy tracking
on this podcast, and how especially in male dominated fields,

(45:09):
women who are expected to you know, run off and
have babies that they don't tend to get promoted as
often or as fast as men or lesbian women, which
is redundant of lesbians, um, because there's that expectation that
you're just gonna leave to go be a mother, and
here she is totally defying all of that well because

(45:30):
some people were kind of waiting and saying, oh, well, okay,
the first ladies had a baby, So now is she
gonna quit her job finally? And she's like, na, not,
y'all um. And years later, when Bill Clinton is running
for president, Newsweek asks her and she felt guilty about

(45:52):
that about being a working mother, and I like in
our notes like circled guilty over and over again because
it's such a loaded question. Oh yeah, and she gives
a great answer. She's like, no, I mean I did
my best. And whether you're a mom who works or
whether you're a mom who stays at home with your children,
like you're gonna feel guilty and like you could have

(46:12):
done better no matter what. And so I did the
best I could well, And she also framed it in
a way of role modeling for her daughter as well.
We heard from one mom who definitely appreciates the work
that Hillary has done as a working mother. I'm Serta.
I'm a thirty five year old mother of three. I
live in Pennsylvania and as a matter of fact, today

(46:34):
I am going to drive to Scranton, which is an
hour away to see Hillary speak. I'm really excited. I
guess I'm sort of a Hillary super fan. When I
think of her, when I hear her name, the first
thing that comes to mind is seeing pictures of her
at a Gay Pride rally in the nineties, when she
was first Lady and I was just a child, and

(46:59):
in my family, the topic of gay rights was definitely
I don't ask, don't tell a situation, and I just
remember being very struck by what I considered at the
time courage. Now as an adult, I am grateful for
the CHIP program, the children's health insurance program that she
helped create, or at least was a champion of UM,

(47:22):
because my three kids are insured that way. I'm a
fan of incremental change politically, but I have to admit
I really want a woman president. I intend to see
a woman president this time. I have to. I can't
go another year voting for an old white guy. I
just can and uh. I think Hilary is a hero.

(47:46):
I admire her so much. She is my all time
favorite politician. I feel close to her. I trust her
because she's a working mother, and I feel like she
understands what I go through, even though she might be
rich and privileged beyond what I could ever imagine for myself.
I know that there is a commonality in being a
working mom, and I really want my two daughters to

(48:10):
see a woman president from so early on in their
lives that they never think that it's weird or you know,
even special. I want them to be able to take
it for granted that a woman can literally be anything.
I don't think electing a woman will change everything overnight
for women, but I do think it's just a symbolic
step in the right direction. And if you're going to

(48:31):
be voting for a symbolic step in the right direction,
you might as well be electing the most qualified person
ever to run for president. But in nine the Clintons
suffer their their first major defeat because Bill is up
for reelection and loses. And this is also a really

(48:54):
pivotal moment. This is when we see Hillary's first kind
of political makeover, but with literally and figuratively, because the
kind of assessment from that was that Hillary was a
liability her career, and her being Hillary Rodham and not
Hillary Clinton, and her not paying more attention to the

(49:18):
way that she did her hair and the way that
she dressed, and the fact that she always was still
wearing rocking those big framed glasses. You know, she just
wasn't really looking the part of a politician's wife, so
she might need to make she needed to make him
more electable hulk smash. But also this is when she
changed her name finally, and she said that it was

(49:40):
more important to other people than it was to me,
So I just changed it. Yeah. Um, And she also
hired a fashion consultant and started dressing differently. She starts
wearing contacts, she dyes her hair, she wears makeup more often.
I mean, she literally has a makeover. And in two

(50:02):
thanks in part to maybe two of her makeover, probably
two were makeover and also um changing her name to
Hillary Rodham Clinton, but also to her background strategizing. Bill
is re elected and then goes on to serve four
terms and she is an unusually active first lady, which

(50:24):
if she weren't that at this point would be strange. Yeah.
During this time, so Bill had appointed her as chair
of the Arkansas Educational Standards Committee, and in her role
there she achieved super hard fought reforms in public education.
And this was a massive deal because this work paved
the way for Bill to be seen as the education

(50:46):
governor in Arkansas, and it helped then boost his national platform. Yeah.
I mean, this was paving the way toward Pennsylvania Avenue. UM.
And we should also mention that during this time, you know,
during these were four terms that they are in the
governor's mansion. UM. The National Law Journal in both N

(51:07):
and N named her among the one hundred most influential
lawyers in America. I mean, she's killing it. Yeah, she's
she is killing it. And in UM, I mean there's
there's this deluge of media attention around her, specifically treating

(51:28):
her as if she is this like alien from outer space,
Like who is this ambitious woman who wants to have
her own career while her husband is making a go
for the White House. Yeah. So this is the first
presidential campaign, but in a way, at least at the beginning,
it was almost a co presidential campaign, which does sound

(51:49):
a little house of CARDSI with Frank and Claar Underwood.
But I mean, at the time it would make sense.
It's like, Okay, listen, y'all, I'm I'm the governor of Arkansas,
and I've done plenty of stuff, but listen, my wife
is brilliant. I've appointed her to all of these roles.
She's been wildly successful. And this is when during early

(52:10):
in the campaign, when Bill famously says, when you vote
Bill Clinton, you get two for the price of one,
and that sounds like a great deal. I'm a thrifty gal.
I love a good deal. But Americans were not interested
in a two for one deal. And I was at
something that the Republicans in particular latched onto, which is

(52:33):
crazy because Nancy Reagan was infamously like super in control
of her husband. Like Nancy Reagan was essentially a puppet
master over Ronald Reagan and totally influenced his decisions and
policy and his stance on so many things. I mean,
she's the one who freaking like framed how they even
looked at or talked about AIDS IF at all at first,

(52:56):
and so for Republicans to like come at Hillary and
Bill like but they were running as that, you know,
I mean, and was I don't have my Nancy Reagan
bio in front of me. But there's no way she
was as successful at that point. Hillary was um and
all of this framing from the get go really like

(53:21):
posed her strength as an indication of his weakness, you know.
And and there was the whole kind of Lady macbeth
framing of like, Okay, if we elect this guy, he's
going to have this woman whispering in his ear, pulling
the strings. And there were rumors that he had promised
her a cabinet position um, which she would of course

(53:43):
later get um during the Obama administration. UM and Newsweek
cautiously hailed her as representing a new generation of political wives,
which is such a back handed compliment too, because it
reduces this woman, who was one of the one hundred
most influential lawyers in the United States, who has all

(54:03):
of these accomplishments and accoltes under her belt, as just
a wife, framing her only in relation to her husband. Yeah, exactly.
And you also have TV reporters asking her things like, hey,
some people think that you're an inspiring female attorney mother,
and other people think of you as the overbearing yuppy
wife from hell. How would you describe yourself? And it's
like that just goes back to what I was saying

(54:24):
earlier about the ridiculous question she's getting as this brilliant,
accomplished woman in her own right, that she's having to
field stupid questions like this, well and that and that
is a direct quote, I mean, like a yuppy wife
from hell. By the way, her answer was that she
describes herself as a wife, mother, and activist. Um, which
I'm even surprised that she even entertained the question. Yeah,

(54:47):
I mean, but she had to. She gave a politically
correct response, and she also had to give politically correct
responses to the feminist label, kind of dancing around that hedging.
Oh well, you know, I don't necessarily identify with, you know,
the divisiveness that is associated with feminism today. But you know,

(55:10):
of course, um, the idea that feminism equals man hating
is she called nonsense? Yeah, you know, so, I mean
she's just already on this tight rope, I would say,
even more so William, more so than her husband. I mean,
right down to her affection for headbands. She was always

(55:30):
wearing those headbands, which I'm like, well, that's just practical.
I was wearing headbands all the time too at the time.
I had the same blonde hair, you know, headband. But
people made fun of her for it. I mean, like,
and I remember being a kid and Um, I grew
up in a very Republican household. I remember being a
kid and you know, hearing those kind of fashion snipes
at her too. Yeah, and that's just because humans are terrible.

(55:53):
And I mean, that's not a comment against your parents,
because like my parents says the same thing, same kind
of stuff about Michelle Obama, and it's like that stuff
is just the stuff you say when you don't have
something more substantial. Well, and it says a lot about
how we value women well, right, because yeah, again, it's
not just about first ladies or women in politics. I mean,

(56:13):
that's any woman. Anybody ever wants to discredit a woman.
It seems like the first thing they go for is
like she's ugly, or she's fat, or her look at
her stupid clothes or whatever that her headbands. H Yeah,
I just yeah, it does say a lot about other people,
way more than it says about whoever it is wearing
the headband. But then during that campaign there was legit

(56:36):
scandal that she and Bill had to immediately navigate, and
that was the whole Jennifer Flowers affair, and of course
rumors started spiraling, and they're trying to control the media narrative, UM,
while at the same time trying to protect their own privacy. UM.

(56:58):
And there's a sixty minutes in her view with the
both of them which some attribute like his ultimate victory
to um because she here, she is, you know, here's
the wife by his side. Can he really be all
that bad if um, she's still committed to him? And
it's it's fascinating to watch because they're clearly such a

(57:20):
team and they are kind of on the same script.
Bill is dodging the direct question of did you have
an affair with this woman? Have you ever cheated on
your wife? And just like coming up with these very
roundabout answers of like, well, you know who says who
among us has been a perfect husband? Like all all
these really vague things, and also both of them coming

(57:45):
back and saying basically like this is no one's business.
This is really no one's business, UM, which I mean,
the tough thing is it's like kind of when you
put yourself in that position, it becomes everyone's. This is
It's not necessarily right or fair, but that's what happens. UM.

(58:06):
But it was also in that interview that she made
the famous Tammy Wynett quote, Yeah, she says, you know,
I'm not sitting here some little woman standing by my
man like Tammy Wynett. I'm sitting here because I love him,
and I respect him, and I honor what he's been
through and what we've been through together. And you know,
if that's not enough for people, then heck, don't vote

(58:26):
for him, then heck, then heck. I would also like
to note that during this time she did have a
little bit of an Arkansas twang, um, which is really
entertaining to go back and watch. Yeah, considering she's from Chicago. Yeah,
although when she does campaign through the South, uh, currently
it comes back. You know. That's what's that called um

(58:49):
code switching. So partly due to restrategizing around Hillary's role
in the campaign, essentially kind of pulling her back a
little bit and being like, whoa, whoa, y'all don't need
to worry. Bill is gonna run the show. Hillary is
just I mean, she just happens to be smart and
accomplished um, and her publicly reiterating her devotion to him. Um.

(59:16):
Of course he wins. So they moved into the White House,
but immediately Hillary becomes an unusually active first Lady. Yeah,
so she becomes the first first lady to have a
post grad degree, her own professional career, and her own

(59:36):
office in the West Wing of the White House. And
not only that, she had more political staffers dedicated to
her than Al Gore did as Vice President. She's also
the first first lady since Eleanor Roosevelt to take a
policy making tech and she advocated strongly for women's rights
throughout eighty countries and also advocated strongly for getting a

(59:58):
woman into her husband's abnet. That sounds so funny, like
I was gonna just put a lady in in a
in a big armoir. We don't know what their life
is like big watermelons. But here is the thing that
we all know. Because no perfect politician exists, Hillary Clinton
was not perfect in her politics. Um, even when it

(01:00:21):
comes to issues of poverty and welfare that she was
extremely influential in. I mean, especially in this first term.
She was strategizing in both the foreground and also the
background on um these these policies that Bill would later enact,

(01:00:41):
and she had very progressive era ish ideas about poverty
kind of resulting from a failure of responsibility rather than
say systemic injustice, especially if we look at how people
of color are disproportionately UM part of the welfare system.
And I think it was around ninety three UM in

(01:01:04):
a Time magazine interview. It was actually yes, soon after
UM Bill had gotten into office. She was talking to
Joe Kleine from Time, and I mean her her explanation
of what she thought they should do with welfare is
a little a little eyebrow raising, for sure. I mean
she advocated stricter welfare regulations and tougher sanctions, essentially saying like,

(01:01:29):
we need to put more rules in place and punish
people if they don't get off the doll soon enough,
because the problem is that there are not there's not
enough structure in their environments. Yeah, she basically said that UM,
in advocating for stricter welfare regulations and in advocating for
UM overhauls of inner city school systems, that when you

(01:01:55):
institute heavier structure, it improves people's lives, especially when there
is little structure at home. And so, I mean, I
think painting with that broad of a brush ruffled a
lot of feathers well, and it ruffles feathers today. I
mean that's one of the reasons why UH Black Lives Matter,

(01:02:15):
for instance, UM has not been a huge Hillary supporter.
UM also too, I mean, we're not going to get
into it, but also because of UM the criminal justice
policies that Bill Clinton enacted that were attached to these
concepts around welfare and poverty and how that also related

(01:02:37):
to crime. Yeah. But I mean, you know, she was
super involved in healthcare reform. That is one of her
biggest things. That is what I remember from being a
kid and watching the nightly news with my parents. I
remember her being involved in healthcare, and of course being
a child and having absolutely no context or explanation for
what was going on, and just was like, yeah, there's

(01:02:57):
this she's it's the president's wife, and she's talking about
healthcare and people saying real upset about it. I really
love the idea of of tiny Carol and sitting watching
the nightly news like a little half half glasses on
a little pipe, little bubble pipe. Yeah. The funny papers
spread across my lab like, yeah, his healthcare and of
course people called it hillary Care, just like they call

(01:03:18):
it Obamacare today because we're so creative. Humans are not
a creative bunch apparently, And uh, she was appointed head
of that task Force on National Healthcare Reform bill's first
week in office, but it went bust and the administration
dropped it all together by September ninety and a lot
of folks blamed it on not her being a poor leader. Actually,

(01:03:42):
when she was first kind of making the rounds um
after her appointment, a lot of politicians were really impressed
with the way that she was just like walking a
room and be like, all right, let's get down to business.
I'm Hillary, don't mess with me. Um. But rather than
making it a more open process, she in a very
loyery kind of way, had her committee and was like, Okay,

(01:04:04):
let's go into this room. We're going to keep things private,
and then when we're done and ready to present everything,
then we will. And Congress was like, oh no, lady, no, no, no, no,
we're gonna shut that down. UM. So was a rough
year for her. It was a terrible, no good year.
UM And she was again dragged through the mud because
of much like Claire Underwood's campaign. Oh my gosh, yeah,

(01:04:28):
I mean there were reading up on this stuff. I
was like, how much of this is Someone drew some yeah,
some heavy inspiration from this. Um. But wasn't a total bust.
She did help launch the Department of Justice's Office on
Violence against Women. Yeah, but still we see that the
week midterm elections and the health care fail were a

(01:04:51):
big setback for her. That was pretty demoralizing. And once
again we see her ambition and her visibility in those
very non traditionally feminine roles being seen and painted in
the press as a liability. So yet again we see
a uh sort of figurative and and also literal makeover
of her where you know, by Christmas time after the

(01:05:14):
midterm elections, she is in full on ceremonial first lady
mode of showing off the White House Christmas tree and
showing you know, the cookies, although man, we didn't even
mention the tea and cookies quote from uh the campaign, right,
one of the quotes that got her into big trouble

(01:05:35):
with people was that you know, I'm not just gonna
be the first lady who sits around making tea and
cookies all day long. And of course, so you can
imagine a lot of women found that to be very
offensive and a lot of men were like, why not?
And from what her friends have said, I mean and
understandably it was extremely demoralizing for her. I mean some

(01:05:57):
said that she went through a depression at the time
because yet again she was essentially being reined in. Yeah,
she was being reined in, and she was getting a
smack on the hand for just again expressing the fact
that she desired an identity beyond being at home and
being built wife, that she wanted her own identity, and

(01:06:18):
that she had worked so hard to establish it. But
when you say that stuff and people know you, and
you say it to your best friend, it's one thing.
But when you are in such a high profile position
and you say it to the press, which then of
course goes out to everyone of all backgrounds, it tends
to get filtered through different lenses. Well, and she also
she wanted that co presidency, Yeah she did, and I

(01:06:41):
think Bill wanted it to UM, but America did not UM.
And we can sense her frustration with all of us
loud and clear. It's not just a sense, it's obvious
in when she famously said, if I want to knock
a story off the front page, I just changed my hairstyle.

(01:07:01):
But I mean also sees her making history. Yeah, she
has a comeback. Yeah, she did in ninety five, we
see the so called First Lady of the World traveling
around the world, complete with daughter into Chelsea. She travels
through all of these Southeast Asian countries, meetings specifically with

(01:07:21):
women's groups and doing things like championing micro loans for
women in these countries. But the highlight, the jewel and
the crown. The thing that is still quoted today and
should be quoted forever more is this electrifying speech that
she delivers in Beijing at the u N Fourth World
Conference on Women. Yeah, this was kind of an eleventh

(01:07:43):
hour speech that she delivered that her her handlers essentially
were really nervous about, because I mean, she was on
the world stage, she was in China, um, and she
wanted to deliver something really powerful, and this moment really
seemed to re energize her from being effectively pushed aside.

(01:08:04):
I mean, it really seems like she kind of gathered
up all of you know, all the times that she
had been told to kind of like temper her her smarts,
her intelligence, um and put it into this speech where
she famously said, if there's one message that echoes forth

(01:08:26):
from this conference, let it be that human rights are
women's rights and women's rights are human rights, once and
for all, and this speech really cemented her as a
global advocate for women. UM and in addition to just
um essentially saying like, you know, women's rights should not

(01:08:47):
be some niche interest, but they are also human rights.
She decried sex, slavery, domestic violence, genital mutilation, coercive abortion, sterilization, wartime,
rape burning. I mean, she essentially like went through the
laundry list of all of the violence and discrimination that
women around the world faced, and as a result, The

(01:09:09):
New York Times, for instance, reported her speaking quote more
forcefully on human rights than any American dignitary has on
Chinese soil. Bill included, Yeah, when people asked Bill, you know, like, oh,
what do you think about your lady going rogue over here?
I mean, he fully he was very clear that she
had his full support well, and she she had support

(01:09:31):
across the aisle. I mean, there were I think it
would be it would be such a liability to um
argue against what she said. And it really seems like
one of the only and certainly one of the last
times she would enjoy that much unanimous praise from Democrats

(01:09:52):
and Republicans alike. Yeah, and so coming off this victory,
and despite her continued efforts to support healthcare reform, support
children's health insurance, UH, fight for women's rights, the focus
would then turn to their personal lives. Yeah, there is
a grim horizon on the home front. UM. And we're

(01:10:17):
not gonna get into all these details because we've already
talked for a long time and we're only up to
n UM. But what was to come, of course, would
be Paula Jones, Kenneth Star, Linda Trip and Monica Lewinsky. UM.
And she would also become the first lady to testify
before a Senate committee regarding the White Water real estate project. UM.

(01:10:40):
But she and Bill had started with another couple while
they were living in Arkansas. I mean, and of course
Bill was impeached and the whole time though it was
kind of interesting about the Monica Lewinsky scandal UM where
I mean, And and a lot of people, a lot
of women and stuff I've never told you, fan UM

(01:11:00):
are not pleased that she still stood by her man
through all of that and the way that she helped
to trash Monica Lewinsky's public image UM for the sake
of politics. UM. Her approval ratings went up as his
went down, because they're like, well, that poor woman. Listen

(01:11:23):
or Maya wanted to chime in about the whole issue
around Bill's affairs and Hillary's trustworthiness. In my opinion, the
word distrust summarizes much of the public's opinion about Hillary Clinton.
And it's not just because she's a career politician. It's
so much more than that. Long before allegation surrounding her emails,
America has been wondering and questioning what exactly is wrong

(01:11:47):
with her? How can she be doing what she's doing
to the degree of success that she's had, and it's
done in a way that we don't do with male politicians.
It runs so much deeper than the lack of trust
we have for politicians overall. And when you get right
down to it, so much of that is because she's
a woman. There's a reason the name Rodham hasn't really

(01:12:08):
been heard since the beginning of her presidential campaign. Whenever
a woman's husband is unfaithful, we always look towards the
wife asking why and what did you do? And why
would he do this to you? And that stigma has
stayed with her, And there's just something about a woman
who doesn't know how to please her man that the

(01:12:29):
American public has trouble standing behind, and this feeling is
popular despite knowing how common infidelity is. That is not
to say that the public doesn't respect Hillary. Young women
all over the world have been writing essays about how
strong and decisive and politically minded she is for decades.
But in the back of America's mind, there's always that

(01:12:51):
question of what is wrong? What is going on there?
As a presidential candidate, Hillary Clinton is not inherently more
or less trustworthy than any other candidate, and yet the
word untrustworthy has been tossed in her direction disproportionately. But
what I think is so interesting and I don't know,
correct me if you think I'm wrong. But you know,

(01:13:12):
as Bill's presidency is winding down and Hillary is winding
up her career, I mean, she became the first first
lady to run for national office while her spouse was
still a sitting president, and in two thousand nine, she
became the first first lady to subsequently serve as a
cabinet member and as Secretary of State. To me, it

(01:13:33):
feels like she just sort of hit the play button,
you know, like not obviously not that she didn't accomplish
things as first Lady of Arkansas and first Lady of
the United States of America, because she obviously did. We've
this is what this whole episode has been about, about
all the amazing things she accomplished and how what a
brilliant woman and lawyer she was is. But to me,

(01:13:55):
it just feels like she kind of went, all right,
I'm going to New York. I've got stuff to do.
Let's buy the house in New York. Let's get to it. Um.
And when you think about her qualities that were most reviled,
really of being very tactical and strategic and calculating, if

(01:14:18):
a male politician had all of those possessed all those
same qualities and that same level of accomplishment and straight
up intelligence, you cannot tell me Hillary Clinton is not
straight up brilliant. Um, there would not have been an issue.
You know, no one would have been like, yeah, but
look at his hair, unless maybe he got like a
four hundred dollar haircut, and unless it was Donald Trump. Yeah. Well,

(01:14:41):
and Donald Trump of force hasn't done all those things. Um, well, yeah,
of course, but you know what I mean. That's that's
the takeaway from me. With all of this is like
a why did you move to Arkansas? I mean, one
of the big questions to Caroline that I'm left with
after all of this was why did she move to
Arkansas for such like for such a planner, you know

(01:15:07):
what I mean, like following her heart like that. I
don't know, I mean, but maybe she still had the plan.
Maybe this was the plan all along, Yeah, I mean it.
You know, it could be that they really are a
Frank and a Claire Underwood, and that she maybe thought
that by marrying following and marrying a man who had

(01:15:28):
his eyes on a larger platform, a higher platform, that
she herself could gain access to a higher platform as well.
So maybe it was calculated, or maybe she really was
just in love and you know, wanted to follow Bill.
I mean, those two things aren't necessarily mutually exclusive, but um,
you know, I it is interesting to think what would

(01:15:49):
have happened would she you know, if she had not
married Bill, if she had stayed in d C. Would
she be and Elizabeth Warren like a really cool woman
who is outspoken and accomplished and very admirable, but not
the you know, the twenty years running gallop poles most
admired American woman, but also scandal written in a lot

(01:16:12):
of ways to I mean, that's the thing. I mean,
she's they are a very imperfect political couple. Um. But
it's like you have to take you got to take
the good and the bad and you put it together
and then you have the facts of life. And I
know that I'm misquoted the theme song, um, but it was.
It was really helpful for me to to to have

(01:16:35):
the chance to look into her bio. I mean, I
learned so much about this woman, you know who, regardless
of the outcome of this election, and regardless of whether
you love or loathe her, I mean, she will be
in history books because I mean, there there's no one
else like her has been and I think it will

(01:16:55):
take a while for there to be someone. And I
think it's interesting and you eeken unfortunate that with how
much she did accomplish, the fact that it is all
filtered through her husband and being a Clinton, so many
of her accomplishments do get forgotten and left in the
dust because of the scandal that's been attached to both
of them. And Caroline, we didn't even we didn't even

(01:17:17):
get up to the pants suits. She she did so much.
We didn't we didn't even have time to get through
that whole media phase. I mean, but that's the thing too,
Like I hope that I hope that listeners have also
gained some understanding as as I certainly have, of that
extremely gendered lens that the media has persistently viewed her through.

(01:17:40):
I mean, and it makes so much sense why she
doesn't necessarily come across as all that open and likable
because she doesn't like the press. I mean, they have
never been kind to her in a lot of ways.
So oh, people are gonna say we sound too sympathetic,
But listeners, let us know what you think. Mom Stuff

(01:18:03):
at how Stuff Works dot com is our email address,
and you can also tweet us at mom Stuff podcast
or messages on Facebook. And we've got a couple of
messages this year with you right now. So I've had
a letter here from uh, someone who would like to
remain anonymous, who has a request anonymous rights. Would you

(01:18:26):
guys consider doing a show on military women. I know
you did one on Army wives and are about to
release one on the military wars on women. Um And
as this person says that she's stationed in Korea, UM,
and that the she calls it, the Big Army is
cracking down on problems of prostitution and trafficking. And she

(01:18:49):
says that women have been present in all aspects of
war through history, as victims, as those holding down the
home front, but also as combatants and at times aggressors.
Usually women in war are seen as freaks or are
necessities due to personal shortages, but we are so much
more than that. There's so much to unpack with military women.
American military women still face open discrimination in certain units

(01:19:12):
and are underrepresented at higher levels. I know I'm usually
the only woman in the room when I go to meetings.
Sexual assault is a very real threat, and the gender
sexual double standard is probably worse in the U. S
Military than in most other American workplaces. But in the
last fifteen years, ladies are breaking down barriers, both for
the good and ill. And she references uh Lynda England

(01:19:36):
who was torturing prisoners just like the male soldiers, and
she says, just something to consider looking forward to the
next show. UM, So thank you for your request, Anonymous,
and also I'm wishing you safety in your job and
listeners wanting to know whether that's something that you would
like us to explore more deeply as well. Okay, well,

(01:19:58):
I have a letter here from Anne in response to
our lesbian wage Bump episode. She says it got me
thinking about my life a lot. I studied library and
information studies and hoped to one day work at a library.
During my studies, I got more interested in I T
and libraries, integrated library systems, and other libraries software, et cetera,
and was part of a team who worked at a
project aimed at getting more open source software into libraries

(01:20:21):
in my country. It got a bit famous in the
librarian community, and I got offered a job in the
second biggest library in the country. They were developing a
library catalog and needed someone who was a librarian. But
it's not afraid of software and more technical stuff than
just books. By the way, you guys should play a
drinking game to how many times I'm saying library. Actually
I think it's pronounced library. Yeah. I keep like almost

(01:20:42):
catching myself saying that because my mouth is lazy. Um. Okay,
so and goes on to say at the interview, it
became very clear to me that they are desperate and
had been looking for someone like me. For a very
long time, they interviewed a lot of people, but no
one wanted the job. I couldn't understand that it was
my dream job, incredibly interesting and also paid much better
than almost anything else in the library. I realized what

(01:21:03):
the issue was when they asked me the boss is
a woman and the rest of the team is eleven men.
Do you think that would be a problem. It wouldn't
be for me, as a geek and a gamer and
somewhat butch pan sexual woman. I'm used to being the
only female in a group. But I could definitely see
all the other candidates all women, because even if a
man studies librarianship, they don't work at libraries. Having a

(01:21:25):
huge issue with this, I got the job, and I'm
happy to have it. I occasionally encounter sexism from my colleagues,
and especially in the beginning, I had to set boundaries
to show them that I'm not useless, as some of
them thought. But it's pretty great otherwise. When I see
what my classmates do now, I know I have significantly
higher paychecks than them because anything I t is almost
the best paid work in libraries, so I have a

(01:21:48):
pan sexual wage bump. If it's a thing because they're
good at communicating with people, they read a lot, and
have other stereotypically female traits, whereas I'm an introverted geek
is not afraid of computers. I'd say good for me,
but I feel like it's bad for them, so it
doesn't make me very happy. So thanks Anne, which reminds
me we did an episode on librarians years and years

(01:22:10):
and years ago, but um, I would love to visit
the topic if we have any librarians in our audience
who would also enjoy that. UM also shout out to
to Bossy James. They're great and they're librarians. Alright, with that,
send us your letters mom. Stuff at how stuff works
dot com is our email address and for links all

(01:22:31):
of our social media as well as all of our blogs, videos,
and podcast with our sources. So you can fact check
everything we just said about Hillary Clinton. Head on over
to stuff bomb Never Told You dot com for more
on this and thousands of other topics. Does it how
stuff Works dot com