July 12, 2010 • 21 mins
According to anecdotal evidence and some studies, women are often attracted to "bad boys" -- risk-taking, narcissistic types. Molly and Cristen discuss three personality traits that make bad boys (and girls) appealing in this episode.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Brought to you by the reinvented two thousand twelve Camray.
It's ready. Are you welcome to stump Mom Never told you?
From House top Works dot Com. Hey Aaron, Welcome to
the podcast. I'm Kristin h I'm Molly. Today we are
(00:21):
going to dive into the world of relationship cliches and
popular sayings such as why are nice girls attracted to
bad boys? And why did nice guys finished last? Have
you ever heard those? Molly? I have that ring true?
It does, and you see it all the time in
movies and television. I mean, we've we've talked before about
(00:44):
our attraction to Don Draper TV's Madman. He's a bad boy.
Oh absolutely, we still love him. We do still love him,
even though we know that he's going to leave and
or cheat on us, break our hearts. And so that's
sort of the stereotypical thing is sometimes even when you
know you're doing something you shouldn't, you just can't stop yourself.
Why is that? Yeah, what's the appeal of bad boys?
(01:06):
And there's actually been a lot of research on this
quote unquote bad boy personality type, and it is a
well documented set of traits that is referred to as
the dark Triad. You know, I think if we called
guys um like dark triad exhibitors rather than bad boys,
they would lose all their appeal. Yeah, because when I
(01:27):
think of a bad boy, I think about you know,
it's like wearing a leather jacket, a motorcycle, smoke and
a cigarette. You know. But maybe we should start instead
of yeah saying bad boys, be like, stay away from him.
He is a dark triad. It's like the Bermuda triangle,
and it really makes the conversation sound more intelligent. He
really demonstrates a lot of dark Triad characteristics. So, now
(01:51):
that people are thoroughly confused, um, let's talk about the
dark t What exactly is the dark triad. At first,
we've got narcissism or self obsession, pretty self explanatory. Yeah,
we might all know someone who's got a little touch
of that. I'm sitting across from more, just kidding, um.
And then we have machiavellianism, which is typified by exploitative, manipulative,
(02:15):
and deceitful behavior. Lastly, in the dark triad, we have psychopathy.
But you know that sounds like something you don't automatically
stick away from but sometimes the traits of impulsivity, thrill seeking,
risk taking can be very attractive to women. And I mean, really,
if we put all these characteristics together, you know, being
(02:35):
kind of self absorbed but also risky and kind of
manipulative and possibly deceitful, we really just had a character
sketch of Don Draper and other uh quote unquote bad
boys from pop culture. Now you you listen to those
three things and you're like, how would I ever be
attracted to that? Why would I want to marry that?
(02:56):
And stize have shown that girls don't want to marry
the dark triad, But these fellows are very successful at
the short term mating strategy a k a. A one
night stand, a you know, a short term relationship, everything
without strings, things that girls might get themselves into thinking
that things will change down the line, but the fact
(03:17):
matter is they don't. Yeah, love them and leave them,
love them and leave them. And this dark triad is
not just the stuff of fiction. It is a universal
trait that has been identified in fifty seven different countries
and it also appears to be genetically linked, meaning that
some bad boys are just bad boys for life. And
(03:39):
that's because you know, they're so successful at short term
mating that, to use an old evolutionary term, they're spreading
their seed, right. They actually researchers think that this is
an evolutionarily developed short term mating strategy, and the males
will have to they're forced into these short term affairs
(04:01):
because once the community figures out that they have, you know,
a psychopathic narcissists on their hands, he will be you know, alienated,
and so of course he has to has to move
on down the road. So that's why he can't stick
around lazies, because you are going to get onto him
at some point. But just maybe blame it on evolution. Yeah,
apparently that's what these researchers are doing, is that you know,
(04:22):
it works for them short term that perhaps they you know,
spread the geneon. But they because they are so um
impulsive narcissistic, it's not like they're gonna change and stay
with you. That drive will lead them not just to
get out of the community because they're probably gonna be
run out on rails, but also to seek new partners,
to seek that new excitement to steal other people's partners.
(04:43):
You know, they there again, they're just not great guys. Now,
when we're talking about the Dark Triad, we we would
be remiss to not mention Peter Kay Jonason from New
Mexico State University, who is one of the pioneers in
this personality research. A lot of these studies that we're
talking about, and a lot of the UM news reports
(05:04):
that have gone along with it are linked to research
that he has done. I mean, he has dug into
the Dark Triad on all different sides, because at first glance,
you would think that the Dark Triad, I mean, first
of all, it just sounds like something terrible, and you
think that it would have all sorts of negative repercussions.
But Jonason has then a lot of work to dig into,
first of all, why it has persisted throughout the ages
(05:26):
and um and hasn't just been weeded out through natural selection,
but also looking at the upside of it, because obviously
in order for it to have not been weeded out,
it had to have been beneficial. At some point, now
you might be thinking to yourself, at some point, are
we totally skewing this conversation right now? Are we turning
(05:47):
ourselves as women into the victims of you know, these
these dark Triad men? You know is it's just like
a totally sexist conversation that we're having. Well, the reason
why we are keep talking about this trait in men
is because Jonasan's research has shown over and over again
that while the dark tribe can't exist in women, can
(06:07):
exhibit in women, as we will discuss in a moment,
it shows up far more often in men. And it
makes sense because evolutionarily speaking, short term mating strategies are
simply more beneficial and more feasible to men. Because as women,
as we've talked about and come back to an uncomfortable
(06:28):
number of times on this podcast, it seems, um, you know, women,
short term mating strategies for women are are more of
a risky proposition because of a little thing called pregnancy. Right,
you're gonna be the one who's sticking around and taking
care of the baby. Now, there have been there has
been the hypothesis put out there that eventually, as girls
(06:48):
you know, have figured out over time that they are
gonna be stuck with the baby, will dark triads kind
of fall out of favor, Will we be more careful
when we hook up with the dark triads? And will
eventually the sort of die out but for now it
it's very sick successful because to some extent on the
short term, women are attracted to risk as a factor
in choosing a mate. Yes, Susan Kelly from the University
(07:10):
of Liverpool published a study entitled Heroism versus Altruism and
Women's mate Choices, and she found that altruism was deemed
more important in long term relationships and friendships. Obviously, you
know you want a nice, agreeable person if you're gonna
see their face every day. But for short short term
Liaison's non altruists, the risky, the risky ones out there
(07:34):
were preferred to altruists, and so she pausess that heroism
and which is associated with that kind of risk taking
behavior may have evolved because of a female preference for brave,
risk prone males, because the risk taking acts as an
honest cue for good genes. Basically, the idea is that
a man who is or a mate in general, who
(07:58):
is uh stronger and fitter and has better genes can
take more risks than say a weaker person, because there's
not quite as much on the line, and there's a
bigger chance that, you know, if he gets himself in
a jam, that he can get out right. And also,
you know, women are looking for good protectors and providers
for their family. If you've got a risk taker who
will say jump on the tracks to say people he
(08:20):
doesn't know, there's a greater chance that he will save
his own children should there be an accident. But you know,
there was another study that we ran across called it
is Risk Taking used as a Q and mate choice,
led by a team of researchers, and I'm just gonna
throughout Andrea's Wilkie, He's listed first. That says that there
may be particular risk that we're more attractive to than others.
And remember the reason we're talking about risk is because
(08:41):
it's huge factor in this dark Triads psychopathy characterization. Now,
this study looked at six domains of risk taking recreation
in that you know, he plays physical sports and takes
a chance, you know, to compete against others, Ethics, cheating
or stealing, gambling a k a. Betting in a casino
(09:02):
investment a k a. Gambling with the stock market, health
like smoking or drinking, and social risks such as arguing
for unpopular issues. And the study found that just you know,
they're only going to be certain areas in which a
woman is going to stick around if you are taking risk. Yeah,
the health risk factor, not surprisingly is the major category
(09:25):
where it's just a huge turn off for people. I mean,
if if you are risking your health through say alcoholism
or drug abuse, is not going to be too appealing.
And then with other risky behaviors such as gambling, another
turn off. It's sort of like foolish risks versus um more.
I guess I don't know altruistic risk for instance, like
(09:48):
taking up the social cause and unpopular social cause. And
according to these studies, women like men who play sports,
although the study did point out too that risky risk
taking behavior not necessarily risky behavior. We think about risky
behavior is you know, like Tom Cruise maybe exactly, or
risky business. But risky behavior risk behavior is a cross
(10:13):
gender appealing trade. Men find risky women to be just
as appealing um as well, which is why there can
be the dark triad in some women. If you've got
this in combination with that devil make care approach, dark
triad women do do exist. They are in the same
way as men, not that successful at long term relationships. Now,
(10:34):
if we talk about getting into a relationship with a
member of the dark Triad, making it sound like some
kind of cult. Uh. At the outset, that sounds like
a terrible thing. But like we mentioned earlier, there are
some upswings to this dark triad because they usually exhibit
emotional stability because they're so narcissistic that they are just
(10:56):
really not flagged by a lot of things. They have
resist alliant self esteem because they are the best person
you will ever meet in their minds, and they have
increased sexual success just because they're sort of driven by
the psychopathy, by the risk taking behavior, by the impulsivity. Um.
So all of that might seem very appealing at the outset. However,
(11:19):
all of that behavior also leads to the dark triad
getting ants in their pants. For lack of a more
intellectual way to phrase it, they need to feed that
risk and that impulse, so a lot of times, not surprisingly,
the dark triad is also associated with mate poaching. Okay,
so say you're a dark tried person. You're gonna you know,
(11:41):
and you're in a relationship with someone, uh and it
just you know, the honeymoon phases over. You're gonna jump
to someone else, and your you might choose someone who's
already attached because of the heightened the heightened risk and
chance of it. Oh, you are leaving your own mate
who you probably didn't take the time to break up
with expose. And so men who are dark dark tread exhibitors,
(12:03):
they tend to have their own girlfriends stolen. Uh so
they probably don't care. But you mentioned the honeymoon period,
christ and I think that's really important for girls or
guys who tend to get into relationships with dark tried individuals.
Two remembers that yes, everything is great at first, and
you're not crazy if all of a sudden you're like, whoa,
this guy's a jerk or this woman's a jerk. It
(12:24):
it starts off very well. And there was this really
great article in a psychologies magazine about how the woman
was just like, I don't know what went wrong because
it was so wonderful, but you know, he wouldn't do
things like meet my parents or you know, let me
leave a toothbrush over there. And it's not insane to realize, Hey,
even though this was a great few months, I'm going
to cut my losses and say goodbye dark to the
(12:46):
dark triad. And I think that we should point out
to that we're not again like this conversation isn't to
make us sound like we are just victims to the
Dark Triad and everyone is going to be swept up
in it. There are certain personality types that are more
attracted to the Dark Triad than others. For instance, Psychologies
Magazine also pointed out that new research by Peter K.
(13:09):
Jonason from New Mexico suggests that women was so called
avoidant attachment patterns are more likely to be drawn to
Dark Triad men. And those are basically women who are
low and self esteem and had unstable and unpredictable family
lives who are kind of drawn to these wild cars
because you know, if you have someone with low self esteem,
(13:29):
the dark Triad, like we said, kind of has impenetrable
self esteem, and you know, might seem just so wonderful
and strong. But one thing that we haven't really touched on,
and to be frank, there really isn't that much research
on this, but it's how the Dark Triad exhibits in women. Yes,
surely you know there are plenty of love them and
(13:50):
leave them type of women out there as well, but
Jonasan's research points out that women high in the dark
triad seem to use friendships more strategically than romantic relationships.
Um and he says that they may keep male friends
quote unquote on retainer to help out with things like
(14:11):
moving their houses, um and they may keep female friends
just to stroke their egos. And a lot of times
women's success that they gain, uh, that's associated with their
dark triad traits are more relative to accumulating personal wealth
and career success rather than sexual success in terms of
(14:31):
well a few term success having a number of partners,
um and that's you know, to go back to another
podcast we've done, whether men and women can be friends,
Jonathan would say that a dark treadman will never be
friends with female because he is too interested in and
meeting success as that was just defined as number of
(14:52):
sexual partners. So if you can't get sex, he's probably
not going to stick around. Yeah, platonic friendships and dark
tread men do not go together. So what do you
do though, if you if you encounter a dark triad
and it's not necessarily in a romantic sense, because the
thing that came to my mind, you know, we're talking
about Don Draper as being a dark triad not only
(15:16):
does Don Draper have a lot of different affairs on Madman,
but he also quickly climbs the ladder at Sterling Cooper
And that's something that Jonasan has looked into because these
characteristics are kind of successful for climbing the career ladder.
If you don't care what people think, if you are
out to just in it to win it, that can
(15:36):
really help your organization, especially in the short term. If
you don't get nervous before a big presentation, if you're
willing to gamble and you know, have a big win,
it can really help your company. So if you work
for someone who is a dark triad personality, there are
certain things you can do to kind of help yourself.
You know, they're not going to worry that the boss
may not worry if you like them, but you can
(15:58):
manipulate them because they still have that narcissistic element and
if you, you know, unfortunately kind of just have to
not challenge their superior position, but kind of going with
like I'm a I'm a big girl too, big boy. Yeah.
I think the key to dealing with the dark triad
in your life, whether it's a uh, romantic interest or
(16:19):
a boss, is to recognize the traits, you know, and
kind of use your own smarts to outplay them. For instance,
the Psychologist article points out that, you know, women's biggest
downfall when they get involved with a dark triad is
to think that they can fix them somehow, And we
have to remember that, uh, this is largely a genetic
(16:40):
trait Jonathan and others have pointed out, and it's something
that you know, you're kind of fighting against nature at
this point. But and it's not all just roses for
the dark triad either, because like we said, I mean,
they're more likely to end up alone at the end
of the day. Because there was one study we found
that said that being high on the dark triad was
(17:01):
related not only to a higher overall incidents would also
hire success rates for poaching, but also having been poached
and having mates poached in short term relationships, long term affairs,
and long term relationships. So the thing is, while we
like to say that, oh, nice guys finished last, they
really don't. The bad boys might be able to rack
(17:21):
up a lot of different sexual partners, but the altruism
and the more positive, agreeable qualities are what we're looking
for in terms of interpersonal relationships for the long haul.
So there you have it. The stereotype kind of proves true. Yeah,
bad boys may mess you up for a little while,
(17:41):
but eventually it's like tortoise and hair. If you're if
you're a good tortoise, just kind of slow and steady
taking the right risks. Yeah, we'll find you eventually. Exactly.
And you know the whole thing about oh, nice girls
fall for for bad boys. From my takeaway from this research, Molly,
it's not nice girls, it's naive girls. Just be aware,
keep out, keep it, keep a lookout for the signs.
(18:02):
And like you said, if you once you're aware that
you have a someone's exhibiting a lot of dark triad traits,
you might just want to pull the plug and move
on down the road yourself. No one needs a Macium
Bellian in their life, that's true. A Machiavellian narcissist psychopath, right, true,
that's gonna be my new bumper sticker. Yeah, stay away
from the dark triad. No dark triads allowed. So at
(18:25):
this point, I am so curious to know what you
listeners out there are thinking about all this stuff. I'm
sure that women you have plenty of stories about bad
boys men. I'm sure that you have plenty of stories about,
you know, seeing girlfriends being poached by bad boys or
or nice guys out there who just you know, might
(18:46):
be having a tough time of it. Whatever I want
to hear from all of you, email us at Mom's
Stuff at how stuff works dot com. And in the meantime,
let's head on to some listener mail. I've got one
from Karen, who wrote about the kind of men and
women really be friends podcasts I just mentioned. She writes,
(19:07):
I'm disappointed that you gave some little credence to the
emotional infidelity aspect of this question when it is applied
to opposite sex friendships who are in committed relationships. This
question isn't just about sex and whether or not men
and women can be friends and avoid entering a room
and tearing each other's clothes off. Emotional intimacy between opposite
sex friends when one or both of them are involved
in committed relationships can be extremely damaging. Emotional affairs are
(19:29):
very real, very destructive, and deserve the same attention and
credence as sexual ones. Alright, well, I've got one here
from Sherry, and this is on our podcast about women
and guns. She says, I'm a thirty year old listener
from the far north of Wisconsin. I'm an avid, competitive shooter.
I own more firearms than my husband, and I didn't
get into shooting because of fear or any ads that
(19:49):
I saw. My father enjoyed shooting, and when I turned
ten he started to take me. I'm still judged because
I'm a woman, but when these men see me shoot,
their complimentary Not to mention, I get marriage proposal very often.
My husband says he does pity any person who would
try to harm me. He usually adds that I've been
known to draw my single action revolver and fire all around,
(20:10):
sitting my target consistently in seven seconds, and her fastest
time is five point to eight seconds. We're a normal,
hard working people. We tell people we have a loud hobby.
My challenge you is to take a few shooting lessons
at a range or a shooting club, asked to shoot
all types of guns, and most people get hooked really quick.
Gun sales don't always reflect flear. It's simply fun to shoot.
(20:33):
So thank you, Sherry, And you want to end on
a reading list real quick? Absolutely, Here's one from aluxus Uh.
This summer, she is reading books by Kurt Bonnicket, the
book Freakonomics by Stephen Lovett and Stephen J. Dubner, One
Hundred Years of Solitude by Gabriel Garcia Marquez, Catch twenty
two by Joseph Heller, Alice in Wonderland by Lewis Carroll,
Like Woebegon Days by Garrison Keeler, and short stories by
(20:55):
Kafka and Lydia Davis. So again, our email is mom
Stuff at how stuff works dot com. If you'd like
to send us a letter, we'd love to hear from you.
You can also follow us on Twitter. We are at
mom Stuff podcasts there, and as always, you can check
out our blog during the week. It's the Stuff Mom
Never Told You blog and it has found at how
stuff works dot com. For more on this and thousands
(21:19):
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Want more how stuff works, check out our blogs on
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Brought to you by the reinvented two thousand twelve Camray.
It's ready. Are you welcome to stump Mom Never told you?
From House top Works dot Com. Hey Aaron, Welcome to
the podcast. I'm Kristin h I'm Molly. Today we are
(00:21):
going to dive into the world of relationship cliches and
popular sayings such as why are nice girls attracted to
bad boys? And why did nice guys finished last? Have
you ever heard those? Molly? I have that ring true?
It does, and you see it all the time in
movies and television. I mean, we've we've talked before about
(00:44):
our attraction to Don Draper TV's Madman. He's a bad boy.
Oh absolutely, we still love him. We do still love him,
even though we know that he's going to leave and
or cheat on us, break our hearts. And so that's
sort of the stereotypical thing is sometimes even when you
know you're doing something you shouldn't, you just can't stop yourself.
Why is that? Yeah, what's the appeal of bad boys?
(01:06):
And there's actually been a lot of research on this
quote unquote bad boy personality type, and it is a
well documented set of traits that is referred to as
the dark Triad. You know, I think if we called
guys um like dark triad exhibitors rather than bad boys,
they would lose all their appeal. Yeah, because when I
(01:27):
think of a bad boy, I think about you know,
it's like wearing a leather jacket, a motorcycle, smoke and
a cigarette. You know. But maybe we should start instead
of yeah saying bad boys, be like, stay away from him.
He is a dark triad. It's like the Bermuda triangle,
and it really makes the conversation sound more intelligent. He
really demonstrates a lot of dark Triad characteristics. So, now
(01:51):
that people are thoroughly confused, um, let's talk about the
dark t What exactly is the dark triad. At first,
we've got narcissism or self obsession, pretty self explanatory. Yeah,
we might all know someone who's got a little touch
of that. I'm sitting across from more, just kidding, um.
And then we have machiavellianism, which is typified by exploitative, manipulative,
(02:15):
and deceitful behavior. Lastly, in the dark triad, we have psychopathy.
But you know that sounds like something you don't automatically
stick away from but sometimes the traits of impulsivity, thrill seeking,
risk taking can be very attractive to women. And I mean, really,
if we put all these characteristics together, you know, being
(02:35):
kind of self absorbed but also risky and kind of
manipulative and possibly deceitful, we really just had a character
sketch of Don Draper and other uh quote unquote bad
boys from pop culture. Now you you listen to those
three things and you're like, how would I ever be
attracted to that? Why would I want to marry that?
(02:56):
And stize have shown that girls don't want to marry
the dark triad, But these fellows are very successful at
the short term mating strategy a k a. A one
night stand, a you know, a short term relationship, everything
without strings, things that girls might get themselves into thinking
that things will change down the line, but the fact
(03:17):
matter is they don't. Yeah, love them and leave them,
love them and leave them. And this dark triad is
not just the stuff of fiction. It is a universal
trait that has been identified in fifty seven different countries
and it also appears to be genetically linked, meaning that
some bad boys are just bad boys for life. And
(03:39):
that's because you know, they're so successful at short term
mating that, to use an old evolutionary term, they're spreading
their seed, right. They actually researchers think that this is
an evolutionarily developed short term mating strategy, and the males
will have to they're forced into these short term affairs
(04:01):
because once the community figures out that they have, you know,
a psychopathic narcissists on their hands, he will be you know, alienated,
and so of course he has to has to move
on down the road. So that's why he can't stick
around lazies, because you are going to get onto him
at some point. But just maybe blame it on evolution. Yeah,
apparently that's what these researchers are doing, is that you know,
(04:22):
it works for them short term that perhaps they you know,
spread the geneon. But they because they are so um
impulsive narcissistic, it's not like they're gonna change and stay
with you. That drive will lead them not just to
get out of the community because they're probably gonna be
run out on rails, but also to seek new partners,
to seek that new excitement to steal other people's partners.
(04:43):
You know, they there again, they're just not great guys. Now,
when we're talking about the Dark Triad, we we would
be remiss to not mention Peter Kay Jonason from New
Mexico State University, who is one of the pioneers in
this personality research. A lot of these studies that we're
talking about, and a lot of the UM news reports
(05:04):
that have gone along with it are linked to research
that he has done. I mean, he has dug into
the Dark Triad on all different sides, because at first glance,
you would think that the Dark Triad, I mean, first
of all, it just sounds like something terrible, and you
think that it would have all sorts of negative repercussions.
But Jonason has then a lot of work to dig into,
first of all, why it has persisted throughout the ages
(05:26):
and um and hasn't just been weeded out through natural selection,
but also looking at the upside of it, because obviously
in order for it to have not been weeded out,
it had to have been beneficial. At some point, now
you might be thinking to yourself, at some point, are
we totally skewing this conversation right now? Are we turning
(05:47):
ourselves as women into the victims of you know, these
these dark Triad men? You know is it's just like
a totally sexist conversation that we're having. Well, the reason
why we are keep talking about this trait in men
is because Jonasan's research has shown over and over again
that while the dark tribe can't exist in women, can
(06:07):
exhibit in women, as we will discuss in a moment,
it shows up far more often in men. And it
makes sense because evolutionarily speaking, short term mating strategies are
simply more beneficial and more feasible to men. Because as women,
as we've talked about and come back to an uncomfortable
(06:28):
number of times on this podcast, it seems, um, you know, women,
short term mating strategies for women are are more of
a risky proposition because of a little thing called pregnancy. Right,
you're gonna be the one who's sticking around and taking
care of the baby. Now, there have been there has
been the hypothesis put out there that eventually, as girls
(06:48):
you know, have figured out over time that they are
gonna be stuck with the baby, will dark triads kind
of fall out of favor, Will we be more careful
when we hook up with the dark triads? And will
eventually the sort of die out but for now it
it's very sick successful because to some extent on the
short term, women are attracted to risk as a factor
in choosing a mate. Yes, Susan Kelly from the University
(07:10):
of Liverpool published a study entitled Heroism versus Altruism and
Women's mate Choices, and she found that altruism was deemed
more important in long term relationships and friendships. Obviously, you
know you want a nice, agreeable person if you're gonna
see their face every day. But for short short term
Liaison's non altruists, the risky, the risky ones out there
(07:34):
were preferred to altruists, and so she pausess that heroism
and which is associated with that kind of risk taking
behavior may have evolved because of a female preference for brave,
risk prone males, because the risk taking acts as an
honest cue for good genes. Basically, the idea is that
a man who is or a mate in general, who
(07:58):
is uh stronger and fitter and has better genes can
take more risks than say a weaker person, because there's
not quite as much on the line, and there's a
bigger chance that, you know, if he gets himself in
a jam, that he can get out right. And also,
you know, women are looking for good protectors and providers
for their family. If you've got a risk taker who
will say jump on the tracks to say people he
(08:20):
doesn't know, there's a greater chance that he will save
his own children should there be an accident. But you know,
there was another study that we ran across called it
is Risk Taking used as a Q and mate choice,
led by a team of researchers, and I'm just gonna
throughout Andrea's Wilkie, He's listed first. That says that there
may be particular risk that we're more attractive to than others.
And remember the reason we're talking about risk is because
(08:41):
it's huge factor in this dark Triads psychopathy characterization. Now,
this study looked at six domains of risk taking recreation
in that you know, he plays physical sports and takes
a chance, you know, to compete against others, Ethics, cheating
or stealing, gambling a k a. Betting in a casino
(09:02):
investment a k a. Gambling with the stock market, health
like smoking or drinking, and social risks such as arguing
for unpopular issues. And the study found that just you know,
they're only going to be certain areas in which a
woman is going to stick around if you are taking risk. Yeah,
the health risk factor, not surprisingly is the major category
(09:25):
where it's just a huge turn off for people. I mean,
if if you are risking your health through say alcoholism
or drug abuse, is not going to be too appealing.
And then with other risky behaviors such as gambling, another
turn off. It's sort of like foolish risks versus um more.
I guess I don't know altruistic risk for instance, like
(09:48):
taking up the social cause and unpopular social cause. And
according to these studies, women like men who play sports,
although the study did point out too that risky risk
taking behavior not necessarily risky behavior. We think about risky
behavior is you know, like Tom Cruise maybe exactly, or
risky business. But risky behavior risk behavior is a cross
(10:13):
gender appealing trade. Men find risky women to be just
as appealing um as well, which is why there can
be the dark triad in some women. If you've got
this in combination with that devil make care approach, dark
triad women do do exist. They are in the same
way as men, not that successful at long term relationships. Now,
(10:34):
if we talk about getting into a relationship with a
member of the dark Triad, making it sound like some
kind of cult. Uh. At the outset, that sounds like
a terrible thing. But like we mentioned earlier, there are
some upswings to this dark triad because they usually exhibit
emotional stability because they're so narcissistic that they are just
(10:56):
really not flagged by a lot of things. They have
resist alliant self esteem because they are the best person
you will ever meet in their minds, and they have
increased sexual success just because they're sort of driven by
the psychopathy, by the risk taking behavior, by the impulsivity. Um.
So all of that might seem very appealing at the outset. However,
(11:19):
all of that behavior also leads to the dark triad
getting ants in their pants. For lack of a more
intellectual way to phrase it, they need to feed that
risk and that impulse, so a lot of times, not surprisingly,
the dark triad is also associated with mate poaching. Okay,
so say you're a dark tried person. You're gonna you know,
(11:41):
and you're in a relationship with someone, uh and it
just you know, the honeymoon phases over. You're gonna jump
to someone else, and your you might choose someone who's
already attached because of the heightened the heightened risk and
chance of it. Oh, you are leaving your own mate
who you probably didn't take the time to break up
with expose. And so men who are dark dark tread exhibitors,
(12:03):
they tend to have their own girlfriends stolen. Uh so
they probably don't care. But you mentioned the honeymoon period,
christ and I think that's really important for girls or
guys who tend to get into relationships with dark tried individuals.
Two remembers that yes, everything is great at first, and
you're not crazy if all of a sudden you're like, whoa,
this guy's a jerk or this woman's a jerk. It
(12:24):
it starts off very well. And there was this really
great article in a psychologies magazine about how the woman
was just like, I don't know what went wrong because
it was so wonderful, but you know, he wouldn't do
things like meet my parents or you know, let me
leave a toothbrush over there. And it's not insane to realize, Hey,
even though this was a great few months, I'm going
to cut my losses and say goodbye dark to the
(12:46):
dark triad. And I think that we should point out
to that we're not again like this conversation isn't to
make us sound like we are just victims to the
Dark Triad and everyone is going to be swept up
in it. There are certain personality types that are more
attracted to the Dark Triad than others. For instance, Psychologies
Magazine also pointed out that new research by Peter K.
(13:09):
Jonason from New Mexico suggests that women was so called
avoidant attachment patterns are more likely to be drawn to
Dark Triad men. And those are basically women who are
low and self esteem and had unstable and unpredictable family
lives who are kind of drawn to these wild cars
because you know, if you have someone with low self esteem,
(13:29):
the dark Triad, like we said, kind of has impenetrable
self esteem, and you know, might seem just so wonderful
and strong. But one thing that we haven't really touched on,
and to be frank, there really isn't that much research
on this, but it's how the Dark Triad exhibits in women. Yes,
surely you know there are plenty of love them and
(13:50):
leave them type of women out there as well, but
Jonasan's research points out that women high in the dark
triad seem to use friendships more strategically than romantic relationships.
Um and he says that they may keep male friends
quote unquote on retainer to help out with things like
(14:11):
moving their houses, um and they may keep female friends
just to stroke their egos. And a lot of times
women's success that they gain, uh, that's associated with their
dark triad traits are more relative to accumulating personal wealth
and career success rather than sexual success in terms of
(14:31):
well a few term success having a number of partners,
um and that's you know, to go back to another
podcast we've done, whether men and women can be friends,
Jonathan would say that a dark treadman will never be
friends with female because he is too interested in and
meeting success as that was just defined as number of
(14:52):
sexual partners. So if you can't get sex, he's probably
not going to stick around. Yeah, platonic friendships and dark
tread men do not go together. So what do you
do though, if you if you encounter a dark triad
and it's not necessarily in a romantic sense, because the
thing that came to my mind, you know, we're talking
about Don Draper as being a dark triad not only
(15:16):
does Don Draper have a lot of different affairs on Madman,
but he also quickly climbs the ladder at Sterling Cooper
And that's something that Jonasan has looked into because these
characteristics are kind of successful for climbing the career ladder.
If you don't care what people think, if you are
out to just in it to win it, that can
(15:36):
really help your organization, especially in the short term. If
you don't get nervous before a big presentation, if you're
willing to gamble and you know, have a big win,
it can really help your company. So if you work
for someone who is a dark triad personality, there are
certain things you can do to kind of help yourself.
You know, they're not going to worry that the boss
may not worry if you like them, but you can
(15:58):
manipulate them because they still have that narcissistic element and
if you, you know, unfortunately kind of just have to
not challenge their superior position, but kind of going with
like I'm a I'm a big girl too, big boy. Yeah.
I think the key to dealing with the dark triad
in your life, whether it's a uh, romantic interest or
(16:19):
a boss, is to recognize the traits, you know, and
kind of use your own smarts to outplay them. For instance,
the Psychologist article points out that, you know, women's biggest
downfall when they get involved with a dark triad is
to think that they can fix them somehow, And we
have to remember that, uh, this is largely a genetic
(16:40):
trait Jonathan and others have pointed out, and it's something
that you know, you're kind of fighting against nature at
this point. But and it's not all just roses for
the dark triad either, because like we said, I mean,
they're more likely to end up alone at the end
of the day. Because there was one study we found
that said that being high on the dark triad was
(17:01):
related not only to a higher overall incidents would also
hire success rates for poaching, but also having been poached
and having mates poached in short term relationships, long term affairs,
and long term relationships. So the thing is, while we
like to say that, oh, nice guys finished last, they
really don't. The bad boys might be able to rack
(17:21):
up a lot of different sexual partners, but the altruism
and the more positive, agreeable qualities are what we're looking
for in terms of interpersonal relationships for the long haul.
So there you have it. The stereotype kind of proves true. Yeah,
bad boys may mess you up for a little while,
(17:41):
but eventually it's like tortoise and hair. If you're if
you're a good tortoise, just kind of slow and steady
taking the right risks. Yeah, we'll find you eventually. Exactly.
And you know the whole thing about oh, nice girls
fall for for bad boys. From my takeaway from this research, Molly,
it's not nice girls, it's naive girls. Just be aware,
keep out, keep it, keep a lookout for the signs.
(18:02):
And like you said, if you once you're aware that
you have a someone's exhibiting a lot of dark triad traits,
you might just want to pull the plug and move
on down the road yourself. No one needs a Macium
Bellian in their life, that's true. A Machiavellian narcissist psychopath, right, true,
that's gonna be my new bumper sticker. Yeah, stay away
from the dark triad. No dark triads allowed. So at
(18:25):
this point, I am so curious to know what you
listeners out there are thinking about all this stuff. I'm
sure that women you have plenty of stories about bad
boys men. I'm sure that you have plenty of stories about,
you know, seeing girlfriends being poached by bad boys or
or nice guys out there who just you know, might
(18:46):
be having a tough time of it. Whatever I want
to hear from all of you, email us at Mom's
Stuff at how stuff works dot com. And in the meantime,
let's head on to some listener mail. I've got one
from Karen, who wrote about the kind of men and
women really be friends podcasts I just mentioned. She writes,
(19:07):
I'm disappointed that you gave some little credence to the
emotional infidelity aspect of this question when it is applied
to opposite sex friendships who are in committed relationships. This
question isn't just about sex and whether or not men
and women can be friends and avoid entering a room
and tearing each other's clothes off. Emotional intimacy between opposite
sex friends when one or both of them are involved
in committed relationships can be extremely damaging. Emotional affairs are
(19:29):
very real, very destructive, and deserve the same attention and
credence as sexual ones. Alright, well, I've got one here
from Sherry, and this is on our podcast about women
and guns. She says, I'm a thirty year old listener
from the far north of Wisconsin. I'm an avid, competitive shooter.
I own more firearms than my husband, and I didn't
get into shooting because of fear or any ads that
(19:49):
I saw. My father enjoyed shooting, and when I turned
ten he started to take me. I'm still judged because
I'm a woman, but when these men see me shoot,
their complimentary Not to mention, I get marriage proposal very often.
My husband says he does pity any person who would
try to harm me. He usually adds that I've been
known to draw my single action revolver and fire all around,
(20:10):
sitting my target consistently in seven seconds, and her fastest
time is five point to eight seconds. We're a normal,
hard working people. We tell people we have a loud hobby.
My challenge you is to take a few shooting lessons
at a range or a shooting club, asked to shoot
all types of guns, and most people get hooked really quick.
Gun sales don't always reflect flear. It's simply fun to shoot.
(20:33):
So thank you, Sherry, And you want to end on
a reading list real quick? Absolutely, Here's one from aluxus Uh.
This summer, she is reading books by Kurt Bonnicket, the
book Freakonomics by Stephen Lovett and Stephen J. Dubner, One
Hundred Years of Solitude by Gabriel Garcia Marquez, Catch twenty
two by Joseph Heller, Alice in Wonderland by Lewis Carroll,
Like Woebegon Days by Garrison Keeler, and short stories by
(20:55):
Kafka and Lydia Davis. So again, our email is mom
Stuff at how stuff works dot com. If you'd like
to send us a letter, we'd love to hear from you.
You can also follow us on Twitter. We are at
mom Stuff podcasts there, and as always, you can check
out our blog during the week. It's the Stuff Mom
Never Told You blog and it has found at how
stuff works dot com. For more on this and thousands
(21:19):
of other topics, is that how stuff works dot com.
Want more how stuff works, check out our blogs on
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