December 11, 2019 • 27 mins
As humans we love labeling people. Why is that, and why are we so ready to label women? Anney and Samantha dish on the science of labeling and the pros and cons.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hey, this is any Smith. I welcome to stuff I've
never told your protection if I heart radios has stuf First,
today we are talking about labels, labels, and not like
the clothes labels, yeah, or food labels, no labels like that. No,
(00:27):
we're talking about labels we attached to people, and in
this case particularly women. Why are we quick to label women?
And we're not really going to be talking about the
rise of no label dating, but yes, that is a
thing that is all the rise. Well, you know, I
also learned the term situation ships. What. Yeah, so that's
a new term when which is not necessarily a hook
(00:49):
up and not quite a relationship, but you're in between.
So it's before that DTR or defining the relationship. You
guys are obviously committed to each other. Right, So, because
I was randomly looking at BuzzFeed and it was a
quiz like are you in a situation ship? And I
was like, what is that? I've never heard of that.
(01:09):
It's the brand new term. I definitely have been in
a no label relationship, but it wasn't Anyone else would
have said your boyfriend girlfriend, you're dating? Um, we just
because I was so, I'm not really sure what I want, um,
and I'm still not sure what I want. We never
(01:30):
officially label anything, but it wasn't. I read all these
articles about and tips about how to how to be
in a no label relationship, and it sounds very like
you've got to have a lot of self confidence and
not be friends on social media. Really. Yes, that's interesting. Yes,
well go look of situationships because that's a majority of people.
(01:51):
I think that kind of unsure you're in a situation.
All right, Yeah, there a new one. I like this,
but we'll tell listeners. You go tell us if you're one. Yes, exactly?
Is it working? Yeah? Oh boy? Um. So I did
(02:11):
find a lot of recent surveys that said millennials in
general really resist labels. Um. And thinking about this, I
feel like in the US we're pretty binary on a
lot of things or man or woman, gay or straight,
Republican or Democrat, and that erases so much stuff. And
this is starting to change. People outside these binaries make
themselves heard. We still have a long way to go.
(02:34):
But I was also thinking our political system that it
seems to me that we're more or at least younger
people are more like this thing that is not necessarily
Democrat Republicans like this way or this way, this way,
so things are a change in slowly slowly. But we
(02:56):
wanted to talk about um labeling of people, and we
all we like to start with definitions. Miriam Webster defines
labels as quote a descriptive or identifying word or phrase,
and it is something that people love to do. We
love to label people. And anyone listening to this can
probably think of a couple of labels that are attached
(03:17):
to themselves, some that they might proudly own, and others
that are imposed on you. Um nerd Christian Democrats, let
prude email all kinds of things. And then we have
you know, if you perhaps choose not to have children,
you might be labeled selfish, um choose to live alone, weird,
not super ambitious, lazy, don't like dogs, untrustworthy. I do
(03:43):
question you a little bit. That's fair, That okay, Because
you've gotten really good with Peaches. You did a lot
of fun activities with her. I did do a lot
of fun activities. I was very happy watching into the
Spider Verse, and so the entire time she played with Peaches,
she has he just has a special duck called Mr.
Quackers and yes, you you two bonded, feel like you bonded.
(04:06):
We did, and you know she's important to you, so
she's important to me. So why do we label people?
Basically is to make sense of things, to organize things
in our brains. It's easier than being specific. Yes, it
makes us feel safer because we can classify things, we
feel that we know how to handle those things, and
then we can rate the level of danger involved with
that particular. Label is a way to combat the uncertainty
(04:29):
of something news. Yeah, and to not label might threaten
our belief systems, which we see. I think in politics
we've seen an older generation it's a big pushback on
this is how I knew you. Why are we changing
to this thing? Yeah? Yeah, yeah, yeah for sure. Um
And going off of that, perhaps obviously, labels can divide us.
(04:51):
We see it all the time in high school movies
about clicks. When you're in the lunch room and you're
looking around at the different lunch tables. It's still a
big trup that they like to play on movies. It is.
I was in my high school. I was in the
click that was like acceptably weird and everyone liked us,
but we weren't popular. We were just well liked but
(05:13):
kind of weird, right and smart um, depending on your value.
Some labels are quoped better than others, and this can
make us discriminate. It makes it easier to discriminate and
salt or even enact violence on others. And this doesn't
mean we aren't different, obviously, but we can be different
and unified by the fact that we are all people
(05:35):
deserving of equality and our differences do not make us
less than anyone else um And labels can be really
limiting and restricting. Most people don't fit neatly into labels.
Being labeled as something hurtful can hold people back by
impacting their self esteem confidence. Things like that right and
what that label and can be dangerous. While that d
(05:57):
s M can be and is super helpful, there is
a dark side of labeling things maybe not yet totally
understood as abnormal and we can see that with the
overchanging ideas of what crazy is versus normal um. And
if we look at homosexuality, the d s M or
the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, labeled it
as a disease until nineteen seven, and at the same
(06:19):
time finally having a diagnosis of things like bipolar might
make people feel less alone. However, misdiagnosis or a diagnosis
that is closed but doesn't entirely fit, can be damaging,
which is also one of the reasons we talk about
autism and what the spectrum is and why it's important
to talk about that versus what the old titles were.
Yeah and um. I was reading an article UM written
(06:41):
by a psychologist about the d s M in particular
and how they have like a meeting every year to
discuss what new things should we add or update or
something be changed, And she was saying one of her
colleagues had jokingly suggested overly active labeling disorder or something
because because I guess that just I have no idea
(07:03):
what goes on in these meetings, but it sounds like
a lot of of things get suggested. If any listeners
have insight on that being a part of that, I
would love to hear that too, I would too. Yeah,
and then something else. Um. When it comes to labels,
we can talk about the labels people refers to wear
during Nazi Germany, like on their clothes. Um. Labels like
that not only impacts soft forth but are literally dangerous. Um.
(07:28):
And if we step back even further thinking about this,
the power of the witch label during the Salem witch Trials,
which I didn't really fully appreciate because you read it
and it sounds so like almost like a fairy tale
or something. How could this possibly happen? But when then
I saw The Witch and that movie was so good
at it putting me in that time and thinking what
(07:50):
could I say that could combat someone who thought I
was a witch? Accusation exactly, very very scary UM. And
I further thinking about this, I remembered in my hometown
paper a couple of years ago, a man accused a
woman of being a witch for making bad things happen
(08:10):
to him, which I mean, it's really funny and in
some sense because I remember one was like my doctor
Pepper on top of my car exploded or something. It
was like, a really, dude, you just forgot your Dr
Pepper up there. The fact that this is still a thing,
like she's a witch, like's been the cars on me right. Um.
(08:34):
Studies into labeling and the impact that they have go
back to at least the nineteen thirties, when a linguist
by the name of Benjamin Wharf theorized that labels are
not just descriptive, but they actually determine what we see,
and he called this the linguistic relativity hypothesis, And in
this way, labels alter how we perceived the world around us.
(08:55):
Studies have shown that the labels of poor and middle
class affect how participants in those studies viewed academic ability,
even when shown the same video. So if they saw
a video of someone suggested that they came from a
poor background, Uh, it was assumed by the particitants in
the study that they wouldn't do as well academically. Um,
(09:16):
even though it's the same other than like the little
hints in the background, the academic portion was completely the same. Um.
Another study found that simply calling a randomized group of
kids bloomers, implying that they were going to bloom academically soon,
had a significant positive impact on the test scores of
(09:37):
those kids a year later, even though they were not
academically different from anyone else in that study. But the
ones they told you're a bloomer in a year, you're
going to be You're going to do such a good
job on test they did. Um. So labels are powerful,
and we have a lot of labels when it comes
to women, and we'll get into that, but first were
(10:00):
gonna pause for a quick break for words for re
sponsor and we're back, Thank you sponsor. So when it
comes to women, we are very quick to label, especially
(10:21):
women who don't fit into traditional gender norms or how
we think women should behave. So there are things like bus, bitch, sweat, easy, loose,
tease withholding, needy, nag, drama, queen ice, queen basic, high maintenance,
Old Maid, spinster, emotional, hysterical, hormonal. I went on a
little deep dive about the I forgot about the card
(10:43):
game Old Maid, Yeah, because I was like, wait, so
there's a whole game based on I don't want to
It turns out it's the history is not was um
not perhaps a whole episode, Maybe it's pretty much. There's
actually a game called Bachelor as well, but for some
reason that one didn't take off. I wonder what it is. Also,
(11:07):
Bachelor comes from day Laurel Leaves, and it was assumed
you got those when you um studied, right, And it
was assumed because men were the only people who would
do that study academics, and they wouldn't have time to
date anyone because they're studying too much. And also old
(11:29):
bachelor doesn't roll off the tongue like it's true. You
and I should play a game of old Babe. Let's
do this. We didn't get the updated version because in
the updated version, the old maid is really hot. Yes, yes,
maybe there is. Actually they updated where she didn't look
like a fronty old woman to being like a skinnier
or whatever kind of connotation of it. We should come
(11:52):
back to this then. I don't you have to have
three people to play all made otherwise we would know
I would know, I don't know, I will will will
refresh the rules like if I have the card, I
would want you to have it. So I mean I
could win by checking you to taking mine, right, Yeah,
I guess that goes. Yes, Oh my god, it's been
a long time it has We're gonna make this happen.
Um and I. When I was thinking about this, I
(12:13):
think one of the not old Maid, but the labels.
I think that one of the reasons I like traveling
solo is that you can sort of start with a
clean slate, no labels attached, No one has any expectations
except with a new girl it's true, but there's some
power in being the new girl, because then, no matter
what I feel like, if I'm introduced to a new
(12:34):
person and I'm with someone who knows me, I feel
like I have to act a certain way, and that
way is generally who I am. But there's something about
traveling where you can sort of shake all of that
off and just see, well, maybe I don't maybe I'm
not really that way, or you know, try something new.
Um yeah, And I feel those those labels that you
(12:54):
have really impact or influence how you It's almost like
a performance, right because and if you actually think about it,
there's also a label for those who are in the
gender norms. If you think about women who are staying
home moms are like housewives or they are um susie homemakers,
and that's not necessarily yeah, in soccer moms, that's not
necessarily a good label either. Yeah, but it's kind of
(13:18):
a good people here. House dad's yeah, house husband's yeah.
I was trying to think about, you know, labels for dudes,
and they certainly exists, but they are not necessarily as
negative as the ones that we hear for UM. Females
are those who identify as female for sure, So we
have a lot of behaviors we label as for single
(13:40):
women only partying on the dance floor, wearing a sexy
dressed eating ice cream, out binging Netflix at three am.
But Mary, women can totally do all those things and
they should. They should do It's amazing. Um. And there's
a flip side too that single women have something wrong
with them, that they're damaged and complete sad, and of
course none of these things are necessarily true. We also
(14:03):
put a lot of labels, like we were just saying
on moms, bad moms, helicopter moms, soccer moms, wine moms, moms.
I was trying to think of those specific terms. There's
a term I know it's it's encompass, is what it is.
But there is a term for women who drink a
lot of wine, for moms who drink wine, saying wine os.
Maybe I know that's the term. That's soft news, that's
(14:24):
not necessarily gender specific. Um. And we also have ray
specific labels, angry black women, spicy latinas Asian dolls, and
and way worse ones that we won't repeat but classify
as hate speech, which we've been seeing more and more
videos of unfortunately. Yeah. Um, labels around feminists, for sure
(14:46):
hinders feminism as a whole. I know we've talked about
these on the show before, but you know, ugly feminists,
angry feminists, those kind of things, man, raw burning feminists.
To be fair, man, I would burn all my braws.
I could. We should. Well, I do need something to find,
like one that you're ready to get rid of. Will
(15:06):
burn it and it will smell terrible, but we'll feel good.
Broke mine last night, he really go on the dance floor.
We were actually were dancing. We were dancing. We were
doing all those singles a little, a little like a
party or a little holiday party, a little holiday somehow
that's amazing. That means a damn good time. Isn't amazing dancing? Yeah,
(15:29):
I don't think it's that's really amazing. I disagree strong um,
But yeah, the labels around feminism, a lot of them
have kept women away. I have a lot of friends
actually that I've had this conversation with repeatedly. Yeah, we're
there like, I'm I'm a I believe in equality. I'm
(15:50):
not a feminist because of I think it means this,
and I'm like, well, it doesn't really mean that, um
and this is yeah. I led to the misconception that
feminism is a monolith, which, as we've said before, it
is not. And I was also thinking about some of
the so called nice labels that we have for women
are kind of backhanded compliments. A lot of them are
(16:12):
perhaps outright objectification, especially if acid do with your look
um so like sexy just the way people say it,
like you can hear it in their inflection um. And
these labels absolutely can hold women back. A women might
not speak up for the fear of being labeled bossy bitchy?
Are feminist? Girls observe these labeling practices and internalize them,
(16:37):
and they internalize that it's normal for boys to be bossy,
but not for girls, and that influences their worldview on
what is acceptable behavior and what doors are open for them. So,
for boys, being bossy is just assumed, so they're never
going to be called bossy, but girls are, and so
it must be abnormal or that's what we're teaching when
(16:58):
we do things like this. From collegiest professor and author
doctor Art Markman, the term boss he is almost exclusively
used with girls, and almost exclusively used to tell them
they shouldn't be. Taking on certain leadership behaviors is almost
never used with boys, and that's a problem. And then
there are things like adding female or woman before a
job title that that's not great either. It suggests that
(17:20):
the expectations and qualifications are different. Seeing female entrepreneur implies
entrepreneurs or masculine, and a female entrepreneur that's not normal.
Plus it draws attention to their gender before anything else,
which minimizes traits like competence. While visibility is definitely needed,
there are better ways to do it. Study from nine
(17:43):
called Girl Woman, Guy Man, The Effects of Sexist Labeling,
found that after showing participants pieces of art with these
labels around the artists, for the female artists, the low
and high status labels had an equally negative effect on
subject judgments. For the male artists, the low and high
status labels had an equally positive effect on subjects judgments.
Many psychologists have suggested that instead of bossy to describe girls,
(18:05):
we use more positive words like strong, persevering, and persistent
yes um and in general, people perceive labels as permanent,
so children might feel boxed into whatever labels attached to
them from a young age who among us hasn't changed
since we were four years old. Even positive labels like
(18:27):
pretty can be harmful if over employed. It can emphasize
to a young girl that her looks are more valuable
than any other trait. And I have two brothers, and
I just I really specifically remember when a relative hasn't
seen you forever. Tell my brothers like, wow, you're really
good at this thing, You're good at soccer, you're smart,
and then me beautiful, Yeah, I got your exotic. Oh
(18:51):
that's a yeah. Um. And I think it also we
can talk about the fact we we have um different
I guess cultures that box children and by saying this
is your specialty and then teach them that one specialty,
how damaging that could be as well. I mean there's
some questions about whether that makes them, you know, better
at that. And we're qualified at things, but do we
(19:11):
already box them in um socially as well as what
is it professionally? So that's a big question about that.
So wanting to avoid certain labels play a role. To
a girl not wanted to be thought of as nerdy
might avoid extracurricular academic activities, or worse, won't try her
best at school, which really sucks, especially if you're enjoying something. Right,
(19:34):
So like we have a trope of I think I
had a couple of people drop out of drama because
they felt it was too nerdy. Man. I I've told
this story before on the podcast. I think that I
chopped out of calculus, which was my favorite class, because
I was told girls don't do that. Girls don't do
that because it will threaten essentially, it will threaten men,
(19:56):
and they won't want to date you. Right, if you're
smarter than them, why would they want to be to
math money management instead? And I learned how to do
my taxes, which I guess is the thing we should people. Yes, yes, uh.
And I went back into calculus when I went to college.
So there whatever. Um and yeah, I was thinking about this. Um.
(20:20):
Then I wanted to ask you, Samantha, why do you
think we're so quick to label women? I mean, I
think it's just the same idea at the very beginning,
and we need to know where everybody stands. And a
part of understanding what everybody stands is by labeling them
and having them in a category. It's easy if we
can put them in a category, and therefore we think
we've got to figure it out, and then we move
on without understanding the underlying problems and putting people in
(20:44):
specific categories. Right, Um, I think it has to do
with maintaining the status quo because any woman who dares
to stray from this very small, rigid space the patriarchy
permits her to existence, who voices a desire to change
that stas quote, gets some kind of ugly label slapped
(21:06):
on or even maybe ugly. Um. It is a way
to keep women in line and shut them up, essentially,
I think. And a lot of those labels that are
specifically lobbed at women are used to gaslight women as well.
And the just long long list of sexual labels imply
that women are objects and their conquests for men, and
(21:27):
that if they're doing something for their own sexual agencies,
something they enjoy, then that's immediately something is wrong with you.
Here's a label for that, right yeah, But if I
get to have sex with you, then I, as a man, bachelor,
extremely successful conquest. That's my impression. Thank you, Thank you,
(21:52):
a good one. Thank you. We do have a little
bit more for you listeners, but first we have one
more quick break for a word from our sponsor and
we're back, Thank you, sponsor. And we did want to
(22:14):
touch on before we close this episode out labels around
sexual orientation and the gender binary. Um. As we've been
having more and more conversations about gender and how restricting
and even damaging the binary is, we're hearing more and
more about things like gender fluidity and and for so
long we've had these rigid boxes, I mean a lot
(22:35):
of cases, literal check boxes for either woman or a man,
and we have found a way to classify pretty much
everything in one of those boxes. And we're slowly dismantling
some of this narrow worldview and acknowledging the experiences of others.
But again, yeah, we have a really, really, really long
(22:55):
way to go. Um And I yeah, I saw Billy
de Williams of Lando how Is in Fame just opened
up about being gender fluid as we record this, and
fear of having our sexuality mislabeled by other limits gender
expression as well. Um, And what matters here are the
labels we identify with, not the label imposed on us
by others. And that's something that we need to remember
(23:17):
that we know imposing labels can reinforce stereotypes and lead
to things like by rature, which directly impacts mental health
and program funding. And we can't ignore all of that
and why that is. And it's also just remember it's
important to hear people yes. And I think that's something
that gets let go of a lot because we're so
scared or change is difficult, or we're just freaking stubborn. Yeah,
(23:44):
easy for our silves and it make if it makes
so uncomfortable, then we're gonna ignore it. But that's not
healthy for anyone, and that's only for anyone's relationship, and
that we should start listening and everyone should start listening
when they say I am this. Yeah, And of course
you don't have to choose a LAEL if you don't
want to, and it's totally fine to take time to
figure things out. And potentially none of the existing labels
(24:07):
we have UM even fit for you. Ah. And I
read a lot of pieces about this on discussion on
whether or not. Uh, I guess some people were saying
we don't need labels and other people were saying we
definitely do when it comes to this. So there's definitely
(24:27):
some conversations happening around it, and that's good, right, good, Um,
so it's it's it's we're moving slowly forward. Yes. So
in conclusion, naming things can be extremely useful by acknowledging
(24:47):
things exist that previously went unnamed or unlabeled. It can
make people feel less alone. Um I've told. I've told
my story of not even knowing that bisexuality was a
thing and feelings so confused when I was watching the
X Files, like well, what's happening here? But they're both
so hot. The labels can help us find community. Um,
(25:13):
I definitely have found you know, my Harry Potter nerds
or whatever. You So they can be helpful in that way.
They can allow us to have discussions about systems of
oppression and how and why some labels maintain those systems.
But it's always keeping in mind the who and wild labels.
That is a good idea, right, and then it changes
things change permanent they I know when I read that, uh,
(25:37):
most people perceive labels as permanent, I was like, oh really,
and then I thought of it. I I was like, yeah, sure,
I guess I was a nerd from a young age
and that's just how it's going to be, you know.
But they don't have to be permanent and Um, it's
how you label yourself that's the most important thing. You
shouldn't be imposing labels on other right. Yes, as a whole,
(26:00):
we're in a time of expanding our lexicon of labels,
questioning them, or appropriating them, shedding them. So you know,
I guess it's an exciting time for labels. Are not
labels because apparently millennials hate them. Um, but we would
love to your your thoughts on labels listeners, and you
(26:21):
can email us those thoughts at Stuff Media, mom Stuff
at iHeart media dot com. You can find us on
Twitter at mom Stuff podcast or on Instagram at Stuff
I've Never Told You. Thanks as always to our superproducer
who is mysteriously gone, Andrew Howard, and thanks to you
for listening Stuff I Ever Told you. His protection of
Iheartradias has Stuff works for more podcasts. For my heart
(26:43):
Radio is the heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever
you listen to your favorite shows.
Hey, this is any Smith. I welcome to stuff I've
never told your protection if I heart radios has stuf First,
today we are talking about labels, labels, and not like
the clothes labels, yeah, or food labels, no labels like that. No,
(00:27):
we're talking about labels we attached to people, and in
this case particularly women. Why are we quick to label women?
And we're not really going to be talking about the
rise of no label dating, but yes, that is a
thing that is all the rise. Well, you know, I
also learned the term situation ships. What. Yeah, so that's
a new term when which is not necessarily a hook
(00:49):
up and not quite a relationship, but you're in between.
So it's before that DTR or defining the relationship. You
guys are obviously committed to each other. Right, So, because
I was randomly looking at BuzzFeed and it was a
quiz like are you in a situation ship? And I
was like, what is that? I've never heard of that.
(01:09):
It's the brand new term. I definitely have been in
a no label relationship, but it wasn't Anyone else would
have said your boyfriend girlfriend, you're dating? Um, we just
because I was so, I'm not really sure what I want, um,
and I'm still not sure what I want. We never
(01:30):
officially label anything, but it wasn't. I read all these
articles about and tips about how to how to be
in a no label relationship, and it sounds very like
you've got to have a lot of self confidence and
not be friends on social media. Really. Yes, that's interesting. Yes,
well go look of situationships because that's a majority of people.
(01:51):
I think that kind of unsure you're in a situation.
All right, Yeah, there a new one. I like this,
but we'll tell listeners. You go tell us if you're one. Yes, exactly?
Is it working? Yeah? Oh boy? Um. So I did
(02:11):
find a lot of recent surveys that said millennials in
general really resist labels. Um. And thinking about this, I
feel like in the US we're pretty binary on a
lot of things or man or woman, gay or straight,
Republican or Democrat, and that erases so much stuff. And
this is starting to change. People outside these binaries make
themselves heard. We still have a long way to go.
(02:34):
But I was also thinking our political system that it
seems to me that we're more or at least younger
people are more like this thing that is not necessarily
Democrat Republicans like this way or this way, this way,
so things are a change in slowly slowly. But we
(02:56):
wanted to talk about um labeling of people, and we
all we like to start with definitions. Miriam Webster defines
labels as quote a descriptive or identifying word or phrase,
and it is something that people love to do. We
love to label people. And anyone listening to this can
probably think of a couple of labels that are attached
(03:17):
to themselves, some that they might proudly own, and others
that are imposed on you. Um nerd Christian Democrats, let
prude email all kinds of things. And then we have
you know, if you perhaps choose not to have children,
you might be labeled selfish, um choose to live alone, weird,
not super ambitious, lazy, don't like dogs, untrustworthy. I do
(03:43):
question you a little bit. That's fair, That okay, Because
you've gotten really good with Peaches. You did a lot
of fun activities with her. I did do a lot
of fun activities. I was very happy watching into the
Spider Verse, and so the entire time she played with Peaches,
she has he just has a special duck called Mr.
Quackers and yes, you you two bonded, feel like you bonded.
(04:06):
We did, and you know she's important to you, so
she's important to me. So why do we label people?
Basically is to make sense of things, to organize things
in our brains. It's easier than being specific. Yes, it
makes us feel safer because we can classify things, we
feel that we know how to handle those things, and
then we can rate the level of danger involved with
that particular. Label is a way to combat the uncertainty
(04:29):
of something news. Yeah, and to not label might threaten
our belief systems, which we see. I think in politics
we've seen an older generation it's a big pushback on
this is how I knew you. Why are we changing
to this thing? Yeah? Yeah, yeah, yeah for sure. Um
And going off of that, perhaps obviously, labels can divide us.
(04:51):
We see it all the time in high school movies
about clicks. When you're in the lunch room and you're
looking around at the different lunch tables. It's still a
big trup that they like to play on movies. It is.
I was in my high school. I was in the
click that was like acceptably weird and everyone liked us,
but we weren't popular. We were just well liked but
(05:13):
kind of weird, right and smart um, depending on your value.
Some labels are quoped better than others, and this can
make us discriminate. It makes it easier to discriminate and
salt or even enact violence on others. And this doesn't
mean we aren't different, obviously, but we can be different
and unified by the fact that we are all people
(05:35):
deserving of equality and our differences do not make us
less than anyone else um And labels can be really
limiting and restricting. Most people don't fit neatly into labels.
Being labeled as something hurtful can hold people back by
impacting their self esteem confidence. Things like that right and
what that label and can be dangerous. While that d
(05:57):
s M can be and is super helpful, there is
a dark side of labeling things maybe not yet totally
understood as abnormal and we can see that with the
overchanging ideas of what crazy is versus normal um. And
if we look at homosexuality, the d s M or
the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, labeled it
as a disease until nineteen seven, and at the same
(06:19):
time finally having a diagnosis of things like bipolar might
make people feel less alone. However, misdiagnosis or a diagnosis
that is closed but doesn't entirely fit, can be damaging,
which is also one of the reasons we talk about
autism and what the spectrum is and why it's important
to talk about that versus what the old titles were.
Yeah and um. I was reading an article UM written
(06:41):
by a psychologist about the d s M in particular
and how they have like a meeting every year to
discuss what new things should we add or update or
something be changed, And she was saying one of her
colleagues had jokingly suggested overly active labeling disorder or something
because because I guess that just I have no idea
(07:03):
what goes on in these meetings, but it sounds like
a lot of of things get suggested. If any listeners
have insight on that being a part of that, I
would love to hear that too, I would too. Yeah,
and then something else. Um. When it comes to labels,
we can talk about the labels people refers to wear
during Nazi Germany, like on their clothes. Um. Labels like
that not only impacts soft forth but are literally dangerous. Um.
(07:28):
And if we step back even further thinking about this,
the power of the witch label during the Salem witch Trials,
which I didn't really fully appreciate because you read it
and it sounds so like almost like a fairy tale
or something. How could this possibly happen? But when then
I saw The Witch and that movie was so good
at it putting me in that time and thinking what
(07:50):
could I say that could combat someone who thought I
was a witch? Accusation exactly, very very scary UM. And
I further thinking about this, I remembered in my hometown
paper a couple of years ago, a man accused a
woman of being a witch for making bad things happen
(08:10):
to him, which I mean, it's really funny and in
some sense because I remember one was like my doctor
Pepper on top of my car exploded or something. It
was like, a really, dude, you just forgot your Dr
Pepper up there. The fact that this is still a thing,
like she's a witch, like's been the cars on me right. Um.
(08:34):
Studies into labeling and the impact that they have go
back to at least the nineteen thirties, when a linguist
by the name of Benjamin Wharf theorized that labels are
not just descriptive, but they actually determine what we see,
and he called this the linguistic relativity hypothesis, And in
this way, labels alter how we perceived the world around us.
(08:55):
Studies have shown that the labels of poor and middle
class affect how participants in those studies viewed academic ability,
even when shown the same video. So if they saw
a video of someone suggested that they came from a
poor background, Uh, it was assumed by the particitants in
the study that they wouldn't do as well academically. Um,
(09:16):
even though it's the same other than like the little
hints in the background, the academic portion was completely the same. Um.
Another study found that simply calling a randomized group of
kids bloomers, implying that they were going to bloom academically soon,
had a significant positive impact on the test scores of
(09:37):
those kids a year later, even though they were not
academically different from anyone else in that study. But the
ones they told you're a bloomer in a year, you're
going to be You're going to do such a good
job on test they did. Um. So labels are powerful,
and we have a lot of labels when it comes
to women, and we'll get into that, but first were
(10:00):
gonna pause for a quick break for words for re
sponsor and we're back, Thank you sponsor. So when it
comes to women, we are very quick to label, especially
(10:21):
women who don't fit into traditional gender norms or how
we think women should behave. So there are things like bus, bitch, sweat, easy, loose,
tease withholding, needy, nag, drama, queen ice, queen basic, high maintenance,
Old Maid, spinster, emotional, hysterical, hormonal. I went on a
little deep dive about the I forgot about the card
(10:43):
game Old Maid, Yeah, because I was like, wait, so
there's a whole game based on I don't want to
It turns out it's the history is not was um
not perhaps a whole episode, Maybe it's pretty much. There's
actually a game called Bachelor as well, but for some
reason that one didn't take off. I wonder what it is. Also,
(11:07):
Bachelor comes from day Laurel Leaves, and it was assumed
you got those when you um studied, right, And it
was assumed because men were the only people who would
do that study academics, and they wouldn't have time to
date anyone because they're studying too much. And also old
(11:29):
bachelor doesn't roll off the tongue like it's true. You
and I should play a game of old Babe. Let's
do this. We didn't get the updated version because in
the updated version, the old maid is really hot. Yes, yes,
maybe there is. Actually they updated where she didn't look
like a fronty old woman to being like a skinnier
or whatever kind of connotation of it. We should come
(11:52):
back to this then. I don't you have to have
three people to play all made otherwise we would know
I would know, I don't know, I will will will
refresh the rules like if I have the card, I
would want you to have it. So I mean I
could win by checking you to taking mine, right, Yeah,
I guess that goes. Yes, Oh my god, it's been
a long time it has We're gonna make this happen.
Um and I. When I was thinking about this, I
(12:13):
think one of the not old Maid, but the labels.
I think that one of the reasons I like traveling
solo is that you can sort of start with a
clean slate, no labels attached, No one has any expectations
except with a new girl it's true, but there's some
power in being the new girl, because then, no matter
what I feel like, if I'm introduced to a new
(12:34):
person and I'm with someone who knows me, I feel
like I have to act a certain way, and that
way is generally who I am. But there's something about
traveling where you can sort of shake all of that
off and just see, well, maybe I don't maybe I'm
not really that way, or you know, try something new.
Um yeah, And I feel those those labels that you
(12:54):
have really impact or influence how you It's almost like
a performance, right because and if you actually think about it,
there's also a label for those who are in the
gender norms. If you think about women who are staying
home moms are like housewives or they are um susie homemakers,
and that's not necessarily yeah, in soccer moms, that's not
necessarily a good label either. Yeah, but it's kind of
(13:18):
a good people here. House dad's yeah, house husband's yeah.
I was trying to think about, you know, labels for dudes,
and they certainly exists, but they are not necessarily as
negative as the ones that we hear for UM. Females
are those who identify as female for sure, So we
have a lot of behaviors we label as for single
(13:40):
women only partying on the dance floor, wearing a sexy
dressed eating ice cream, out binging Netflix at three am.
But Mary, women can totally do all those things and
they should. They should do It's amazing. Um. And there's
a flip side too that single women have something wrong
with them, that they're damaged and complete sad, and of
course none of these things are necessarily true. We also
(14:03):
put a lot of labels, like we were just saying
on moms, bad moms, helicopter moms, soccer moms, wine moms, moms.
I was trying to think of those specific terms. There's
a term I know it's it's encompass, is what it is.
But there is a term for women who drink a
lot of wine, for moms who drink wine, saying wine os.
Maybe I know that's the term. That's soft news, that's
(14:24):
not necessarily gender specific. Um. And we also have ray
specific labels, angry black women, spicy latinas Asian dolls, and
and way worse ones that we won't repeat but classify
as hate speech, which we've been seeing more and more
videos of unfortunately. Yeah. Um, labels around feminists, for sure
(14:46):
hinders feminism as a whole. I know we've talked about
these on the show before, but you know, ugly feminists,
angry feminists, those kind of things, man, raw burning feminists.
To be fair, man, I would burn all my braws.
I could. We should. Well, I do need something to find,
like one that you're ready to get rid of. Will
(15:06):
burn it and it will smell terrible, but we'll feel good.
Broke mine last night, he really go on the dance floor.
We were actually were dancing. We were dancing. We were
doing all those singles a little, a little like a
party or a little holiday party, a little holiday somehow
that's amazing. That means a damn good time. Isn't amazing dancing? Yeah,
(15:29):
I don't think it's that's really amazing. I disagree strong um,
But yeah, the labels around feminism, a lot of them
have kept women away. I have a lot of friends
actually that I've had this conversation with repeatedly. Yeah, we're
there like, I'm I'm a I believe in equality. I'm
(15:50):
not a feminist because of I think it means this,
and I'm like, well, it doesn't really mean that, um
and this is yeah. I led to the misconception that
feminism is a monolith, which, as we've said before, it
is not. And I was also thinking about some of
the so called nice labels that we have for women
are kind of backhanded compliments. A lot of them are
(16:12):
perhaps outright objectification, especially if acid do with your look
um so like sexy just the way people say it,
like you can hear it in their inflection um. And
these labels absolutely can hold women back. A women might
not speak up for the fear of being labeled bossy bitchy?
Are feminist? Girls observe these labeling practices and internalize them,
(16:37):
and they internalize that it's normal for boys to be bossy,
but not for girls, and that influences their worldview on
what is acceptable behavior and what doors are open for them. So,
for boys, being bossy is just assumed, so they're never
going to be called bossy, but girls are, and so
it must be abnormal or that's what we're teaching when
(16:58):
we do things like this. From collegiest professor and author
doctor Art Markman, the term boss he is almost exclusively
used with girls, and almost exclusively used to tell them
they shouldn't be. Taking on certain leadership behaviors is almost
never used with boys, and that's a problem. And then
there are things like adding female or woman before a
job title that that's not great either. It suggests that
(17:20):
the expectations and qualifications are different. Seeing female entrepreneur implies
entrepreneurs or masculine, and a female entrepreneur that's not normal.
Plus it draws attention to their gender before anything else,
which minimizes traits like competence. While visibility is definitely needed,
there are better ways to do it. Study from nine
(17:43):
called Girl Woman, Guy Man, The Effects of Sexist Labeling,
found that after showing participants pieces of art with these
labels around the artists, for the female artists, the low
and high status labels had an equally negative effect on
subject judgments. For the male artists, the low and high
status labels had an equally positive effect on subjects judgments.
Many psychologists have suggested that instead of bossy to describe girls,
(18:05):
we use more positive words like strong, persevering, and persistent
yes um and in general, people perceive labels as permanent,
so children might feel boxed into whatever labels attached to
them from a young age who among us hasn't changed
since we were four years old. Even positive labels like
(18:27):
pretty can be harmful if over employed. It can emphasize
to a young girl that her looks are more valuable
than any other trait. And I have two brothers, and
I just I really specifically remember when a relative hasn't
seen you forever. Tell my brothers like, wow, you're really
good at this thing, You're good at soccer, you're smart,
and then me beautiful, Yeah, I got your exotic. Oh
(18:51):
that's a yeah. Um. And I think it also we
can talk about the fact we we have um different
I guess cultures that box children and by saying this
is your specialty and then teach them that one specialty,
how damaging that could be as well. I mean there's
some questions about whether that makes them, you know, better
at that. And we're qualified at things, but do we
(19:11):
already box them in um socially as well as what
is it professionally? So that's a big question about that.
So wanting to avoid certain labels play a role. To
a girl not wanted to be thought of as nerdy
might avoid extracurricular academic activities, or worse, won't try her
best at school, which really sucks, especially if you're enjoying something. Right,
(19:34):
So like we have a trope of I think I
had a couple of people drop out of drama because
they felt it was too nerdy. Man. I I've told
this story before on the podcast. I think that I
chopped out of calculus, which was my favorite class, because
I was told girls don't do that. Girls don't do
that because it will threaten essentially, it will threaten men,
(19:56):
and they won't want to date you. Right, if you're
smarter than them, why would they want to be to
math money management instead? And I learned how to do
my taxes, which I guess is the thing we should people. Yes, yes, uh.
And I went back into calculus when I went to college.
So there whatever. Um and yeah, I was thinking about this. Um.
(20:20):
Then I wanted to ask you, Samantha, why do you
think we're so quick to label women? I mean, I
think it's just the same idea at the very beginning,
and we need to know where everybody stands. And a
part of understanding what everybody stands is by labeling them
and having them in a category. It's easy if we
can put them in a category, and therefore we think
we've got to figure it out, and then we move
on without understanding the underlying problems and putting people in
(20:44):
specific categories. Right, Um, I think it has to do
with maintaining the status quo because any woman who dares
to stray from this very small, rigid space the patriarchy
permits her to existence, who voices a desire to change
that stas quote, gets some kind of ugly label slapped
(21:06):
on or even maybe ugly. Um. It is a way
to keep women in line and shut them up, essentially,
I think. And a lot of those labels that are
specifically lobbed at women are used to gaslight women as well.
And the just long long list of sexual labels imply
that women are objects and their conquests for men, and
(21:27):
that if they're doing something for their own sexual agencies,
something they enjoy, then that's immediately something is wrong with you.
Here's a label for that, right yeah, But if I
get to have sex with you, then I, as a man, bachelor,
extremely successful conquest. That's my impression. Thank you, Thank you,
(21:52):
a good one. Thank you. We do have a little
bit more for you listeners, but first we have one
more quick break for a word from our sponsor and
we're back, Thank you, sponsor. And we did want to
(22:14):
touch on before we close this episode out labels around
sexual orientation and the gender binary. Um. As we've been
having more and more conversations about gender and how restricting
and even damaging the binary is, we're hearing more and
more about things like gender fluidity and and for so
long we've had these rigid boxes, I mean a lot
(22:35):
of cases, literal check boxes for either woman or a man,
and we have found a way to classify pretty much
everything in one of those boxes. And we're slowly dismantling
some of this narrow worldview and acknowledging the experiences of others.
But again, yeah, we have a really, really, really long
(22:55):
way to go. Um And I yeah, I saw Billy
de Williams of Lando how Is in Fame just opened
up about being gender fluid as we record this, and
fear of having our sexuality mislabeled by other limits gender
expression as well. Um, And what matters here are the
labels we identify with, not the label imposed on us
by others. And that's something that we need to remember
(23:17):
that we know imposing labels can reinforce stereotypes and lead
to things like by rature, which directly impacts mental health
and program funding. And we can't ignore all of that
and why that is. And it's also just remember it's
important to hear people yes. And I think that's something
that gets let go of a lot because we're so
scared or change is difficult, or we're just freaking stubborn. Yeah,
(23:44):
easy for our silves and it make if it makes
so uncomfortable, then we're gonna ignore it. But that's not
healthy for anyone, and that's only for anyone's relationship, and
that we should start listening and everyone should start listening
when they say I am this. Yeah, And of course
you don't have to choose a LAEL if you don't
want to, and it's totally fine to take time to
figure things out. And potentially none of the existing labels
(24:07):
we have UM even fit for you. Ah. And I
read a lot of pieces about this on discussion on
whether or not. Uh, I guess some people were saying
we don't need labels and other people were saying we
definitely do when it comes to this. So there's definitely
(24:27):
some conversations happening around it, and that's good, right, good, Um,
so it's it's it's we're moving slowly forward. Yes. So
in conclusion, naming things can be extremely useful by acknowledging
(24:47):
things exist that previously went unnamed or unlabeled. It can
make people feel less alone. Um I've told. I've told
my story of not even knowing that bisexuality was a
thing and feelings so confused when I was watching the
X Files, like well, what's happening here? But they're both
so hot. The labels can help us find community. Um,
(25:13):
I definitely have found you know, my Harry Potter nerds
or whatever. You So they can be helpful in that way.
They can allow us to have discussions about systems of
oppression and how and why some labels maintain those systems.
But it's always keeping in mind the who and wild labels.
That is a good idea, right, and then it changes
things change permanent they I know when I read that, uh,
(25:37):
most people perceive labels as permanent, I was like, oh really,
and then I thought of it. I I was like, yeah, sure,
I guess I was a nerd from a young age
and that's just how it's going to be, you know.
But they don't have to be permanent and Um, it's
how you label yourself that's the most important thing. You
shouldn't be imposing labels on other right. Yes, as a whole,
(26:00):
we're in a time of expanding our lexicon of labels,
questioning them, or appropriating them, shedding them. So you know,
I guess it's an exciting time for labels. Are not
labels because apparently millennials hate them. Um, but we would
love to your your thoughts on labels listeners, and you
(26:21):
can email us those thoughts at Stuff Media, mom Stuff
at iHeart media dot com. You can find us on
Twitter at mom Stuff podcast or on Instagram at Stuff
I've Never Told You. Thanks as always to our superproducer
who is mysteriously gone, Andrew Howard, and thanks to you
for listening Stuff I Ever Told you. His protection of
Iheartradias has Stuff works for more podcasts. For my heart
(26:43):
Radio is the heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever
you listen to your favorite shows.
Stuff Mom Never Told You News
Hosts And Creators
Anney Reese
Samantha McVey
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