January 5, 2018 • 36 mins
In the wake of #MeToo, hundreds of Hollywood A-listers are fighting back against sexual misconduct.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hey, this is Bridget and this is Emily, and you're
listening the stuff Mom never told you. And today trigger warning,
we're talking about the me too campaign and sexual fault.
(00:25):
So that's something that's tough for you. Just know that's
this episode is all about again again a bird episode
around me too and what feels like a reckoning for
powerful men who are creeps. And you know what, I
love today's episode because instead of chronicling all the men
who have been outed as perverts and creeps and who
(00:47):
have hopefully gone down in flames, today is about positive, proactive,
systemic change that is being advocated for on behalf of
women from all walks of life. And so today while
we are talking about meets you again, this is a
different take on it and it really got me excited
about the potential for to really be a time of
(01:09):
proactive advocacy and change on this issue. Totally. So just
two levels that where we're at in terms of me too.
A few new creeps have been outed. This is always
going to be an abbreviated list because the list is
ever growing. Um you may have seen some new industries
on that list. Mario Batali, the World Round Chef, was
outed as a creep and in his email about said allegations,
(01:31):
what else other than an apology? What else did he include?
Did a recipe that was like side by side with
his assault apology? Yeah? Basically he said, listen, these allegations happen.
I'm sorry, I'm stepping down. Ps. If you want a
recipe for cinnamon rolls made from pizza dough, here's a
crowd pleaser. I didn't think it could get any better
(01:54):
than Louis Kay's not apology, but that really takes the
cake when takes the cinnamon rolls. Yeah. Alongside Batallity, we
had Danny Masterson, who was the guy from that DevD show.
Women have long accused him of rape and Netflix just
recently announced that he would be off the show The Ranch.
This has kind of been a long time coming for him.
(02:15):
I know that there have been allegations for a long
time and people really holding Netflix's feet to the fire
on accountability, so this is would have been a long
time coming. In addition to that, in the politics world,
John Conyers also taken down by these allegations, and his
office was the first office that I interned in as
a young intern on the House Judiciary committee. I lasted
two weeks. The hill was not for me. But yeah,
(02:37):
I mean, very previously well respected, renowned advocate, civil rights leader,
uh Rep. John Connor's going down, and he did not
go down without a fight. He did not another sort
of update to the initial person who seemed to sort
of trigger all of this. Actress Selma Hiak, on December
twelve wrote a really powerful and compelling and in The
(03:00):
New York Times that her relationship with Harvey Weinstein and
really how this man had controlled her for a very
long time. She described desperately wanting to produce a film
that the Mexican muralist frieda Calo, and being so delighted
when Weinstein became attached to the project, but later he
began propositioning her. She writes, little did I know it
would be my turn to say no, not to opening
(03:21):
the door to him at all hours of the night,
hotel after hotel, location after location where he would show
up unexpectedly, including one location during a movie where he
wasn't even involved with no, to me taking a shower
with him. The range of his persuasion tactics went from
sweet talking to me that one time when in an
attack of theory. He said these terrifying words, I will
kill you. Don't think I can't. It's pretty nauseating. She
(03:43):
goes on to talk about how he almost stripped her
from the Freedom project that she had been so excited
to work on, and the only way that she could
get him to not do that was by agreeing to
film a full frontal nude scene with another woman, which
is so creepy and so gross and so indicative of
(04:04):
the kind of like limitless power that this man wielded
over women in Hollywood. And it was brave of her,
some might even say unnecessary to come out with such
a powerful, compelling, vulnerable peace, even after he had already
been taken down in a lot of ways. You know,
she didn't have to do that, and to me, that
(04:26):
speaks even further to her character of wanting to make
sure that, you know, despite whatever personal reputation hits she
might take, she wanted to add her voice to the
chorus of women asking for justice and retribution. And I
think it's indicative of Hollywood women really leading this conversation,
(04:49):
which is an uncomfortable position because we know it's not
Hollywood women alone who have to deal with sexual assault
predatory bosses, power being wielded over your own body. And
yet they have taken the mantle of leadership in terms
of using their influence, using their platforms, and now using
their financial privilege to bridge that divide between women with
(05:13):
extreme financial privilege facing sexual assault in their workplaces and
women who are working class and dealing with the same
kind of bullsh that we have been far too many
cases all dealt with exactly. On January one of this
new year, a group of prominent women in the entertainment
industry launched times up, an initiative to combat sexual misconduct
not just in Hollywood but in other industries. To these
(05:35):
three hundred actresses, agents, writers, directors, producers, and entertainment executives
really are getting together this network where they can say, hey,
our industry has this problem. We want to focus on it,
but we want to help other women who might not
have our access, our privilege, our power, our money. We
want to make sure those women are covered to exactly. So,
they've got an array of initiatives that are part of
(05:57):
the hashtag times up effort that really is setting out
to fight systemic sexual harassment in Hollywood and in blue
collar workplaces. Nationwide. Their website Times up now dot Com
describes it as a movement powered by women that addresses
systemic inequality and injustice in the workplace that it's kept
(06:18):
under represented groups from reaching their full potential. They're going
to partner with leading advocates for equality and safety to
improve laws, employment agreements, and corporate policies. And finally, and
arguably most importantly, they're aiming to enable more women and
men to access legal resources to hold wrongdoers accountable. This
(06:40):
movement was announced January first with an in passionate pledge
with support for working class women in an open letter
signed by hundreds of women in show business, many of
them you know, Hollywood A listers. The letter also ran
as a full page ad in both The New York
Times and Opinion, a Spanish language newsletter. And so we're
talking folks like Shonda Rhymes, like Reese Withers, like Meryl Streep.
(07:01):
Not only did they all sign onto this impassioned letter,
but they also want other A listers to get involved.
They're calling for all these famous Hollywood elite to all
wear black to the Golden Globes to symbolize their commitment
to combating sexual harassment and all its forms across industries.
And our favorite part of this initiative is that it
(07:22):
explicitly includes marginalized women at the forefront. So right now,
we know that in the wake of the Me Too movement,
a lot of the critiques that have been levied their
way have to do with the fact that these are
centered on Hollywood A listers, Hollywood A listeners who were
still victimized and fearful of of what they had to
(07:43):
lose in speaking out, but still women with a lot
more privilege going for them than the average blue collar worker.
Attorney Tina Chen, who was the former assistant to President
Barack Obama and chief of staff for First Lady Michelle Obama,
is spearheading the Times Up Legal Defense Fund, which is
administered by it's a partnership with really the National Women's
(08:05):
Law Centers Legal Network for Gender Equity, and that's why
we are so excited to dive more into how important
this initiative is at making legal resources available to women
from all walks of life who needs support in speaking
out against cultures of assault and harassment at work. We're
(08:25):
gonna dive more into that after this quick break, and
we're back and we are so thrilled to be joined
today by the National Women's Law Centers. Sunu Chandi, the
National Women's Law Center Legal Director. Sunu joins the National
Women's Law Center from the Civil Rights Division of h
(08:47):
S and the E E O C before that, which
if you listen to the show, you know we talk
about a lot. She's an expert on legal issues facing
women in the workplace, including sexual harassment. She's been an
integral part of getting the legal network for gender equity
off the ground. Thank you so much for joining us today.
Thank you for having me. I think it's such an
exciting time to look back at the me too momentum,
(09:09):
and let's talk about times up. Let's talk about this
movement to be proactive about providing solutions on a systemic
level so that we don't have to watch the headlines
every single week of who's being called out as a perpet. Now,
I think this is a much more positive framing of
what are we doing to curb this systemic problem? So
(09:31):
what is Time's Up all about? Okay, so we are
really excited that, um, a group of celebrities in Hollywood
decided to pool their funds and look at how they
can financially support legally fighting back by low age women
and women across a number of workplaces who are facing
(09:54):
sexual harassment and retaliation in connection with harassment. So what
that means is the Legal Network for Gender Equity, which
the National Women's Lost Center launched in October, has additional
support um to get more lawyers to take on these cases. So,
as you may know, to bring litigation can often be expensive,
(10:17):
both for attorney time and also all the different pieces
that go into litigation such as court fees, paying for depositions,
or the various steps that happened before a trial. And
when a lawyer takes a case, you're not sure if
it's a case that will be maybe settled or resolved
within a few weeks or months, or a case that
could take a few years. And so it's a financially
(10:39):
risky for lawyers to take on sexual harassment cases or
any sort of workplace civil rights cases. So what the
times that fund is is these Hollywood celebrities have come
together and pulled significant amounts of money so that women
in all different workplaces can have more access to fighting
back against sexual harassment. On the National Women's Law Center's website, UM.
(11:02):
There's a place to sign up as lawyers who want
to take part in this work, and also for individuals
who are seeking legal help, they can also sign up
and they'll receive the names of about three lawyers and
then they can follow up to contact them for a
free initial consultation, and then what the fund will be
used to is to support the cases that are actually
(11:23):
taken up UM to go forward through litigation. So ultimately,
this is a way that women in low wage workplaces
will have some financial and legal support in fighting back
against sex harassment. I think that's so so critical to
what you're doing. I know one of the biggest criticisms
folks made with me Too was that it seemed to
(11:46):
center Hollywood A listers who you think might already be
coming from a place of privilege, when we know sexual
harassment and sexual misconduct impacts all of us, whether you're privileged,
whether you're marginalized. In fact, if you're a marginalized person,
you probably more are likely to be facing these issues.
And so you know, you had these women who are
not Hollywood A listers, like the seven thousand female farm
(12:08):
workers who penned an open letter about harassment in November
or these women who worked for Ford Motor Company on
the floor at these car plants who also spoke up
about harassment. I love that what you're doing with Time's
Up is really centering all different kinds of women's experiences
and giving all of these different kinds of women from
different backgrounds access to legal services so they can really
(12:31):
speak up and get justice. So and it really just
shows that this movement is not about just Hollywood A listers.
It's about all of us. That's exactly right. And you know,
on one level, UM individuals of all genders and women
of course that fails face sexual harassments across industry, so
from the financial industry, the tech industry, actresses, and also
(12:53):
the group that this fund is supposed to support, which
is hotel workers, restaurant workers, and workers in low wage
work who are even more unable to bring these cases forward,
both because maybe they don't know who to contact, who
to trust, and also this barrier of having to pay
for litigation. So this um legal network for gender equity
(13:17):
with times Up is a really wonderful pairing because we
have attorneys who have said we want to take on
sexual harassment cases, and we also have some funds to
help support those cases. So both of these are really
critical and needed by women in low wage work who
are facing sexual harassment or retaliation. Yeah, thirteen million dollars
(13:38):
in funds, which is no small achievement already, which is
really something to be proud of and is going to
help make the traditional systems of labor power something that's
now accessible to low wage workers. And that's that's my
question in all of this, especially when I was listening
to the Daily The New York Times podcast about the
(14:00):
Ford Motor Company and the harassment that women continued to
face decades after litigation was brought against the company. What
is the role for labor in this movement? Because we're
we're big labor activists here, Bridge and I we sort
of came up in the labor movement, and yet we're
also millennials who don't expect to ever have a pension
(14:22):
or you know, we always turned to the e o
C because job site committees seem to be one alternative
to what used to be a traditional labor infrastructure that
could help protect women in this case. So where do
you see this solution fitting in and is it filling
(14:43):
a gap? As it feeling a void that was once
occupied by a stronger labor movement. Yeah. I mean it's
interesting because we definitely see um labor unions as an
important partner. I mean we can look and see that
there are more sort of women and people of color
are are largely reflected, and especially public sector unions, and
(15:04):
there are issues that have come up where we have
worked with unions to take up issues of discrimination. I
think this is an area where workers centers, labor unions,
individual workers all need to take this up. It's going
to take all of us. There are definitely moments in
time where labor unions have taken up um sort of
pay equity or discrimination or harassment faced by people of color,
(15:28):
or have provided benefits to LGBT workers, and have done
things to support sort of progressive movements and causes. So
I think that labor unions are definitely part of the
solution and need to be challenged to continue to be
part of the solution. Also, there are many workers centers
who serve this role too, but there are also many
(15:51):
many workplaces where there aren't unions and individual workers are
sort of feel alone in this taking up the mantle,
and so that I think is a time when having
a lawyer advocate to guide you and advise you is
even more critical. And you know, anyone can contact the
legal network, whether that person has a union there or not.
(16:11):
I think if there's a union there, or if there's
some state protections against termination, that gives individuals that much
more strength in coming forward to file any sort of
claim or take part in any sort of sexual harassment complaint,
because without the union there, or without other local civil
(16:32):
rights protections or labor protections, it's a risk. It's always
a risk, and that's why retaliation is also part of
what we're looking at in sexual harassment cases. But also
anything negative that happens to a worker for coming forward
counts could count as retaliation, and the standard is quite broad. Um,
so it doesn't have to be a termination. It could
(16:53):
be you're losing clients, or losing hours, or losing shifts.
Any of those things could be seen as retaliation were
coming forward. Yeah, I'm just really curious what has retaliation
looked like because I think of retaliation as you lost
your job, But you just mentioned some things that I'd
never even occurred to me. Losing clients, getting bad mouthed
around town, what kind of forms can retaliation take in
(17:15):
a sexual harassment situation? And you know what to add
to that? Can we back up for one second and
explain why is that legally important? So? How are workers
protected from retaliation? What are the kinds of punitive um
responses that you can take for companies who are penalizing
women who are speaking out and making their voices heard
(17:37):
through legal action. Sure, so retaliation can take many, many forms,
and fortunately the law has evolved to recognize that, and
the Supreme Court has recognized that what retaliation means in
each workplace depends on what's valued in that workplace. So
(17:57):
for many years at EO c A litigated a case
um in the fast food industry and what what retaliation
looked like in that industry was you always had to
clean the bathroom. In another workplace, retaliation could be you
don't get invited to launch with a client. So it
could be anything that sort of significantly impacts you in
the workplace. It could also be things beyond the workplace.
(18:20):
We there's also a trend where individuals are sued and
deformation claims are brought against individuals after they bring a
sexual harassment case. That's could that could be a form
of retaliation, so we're clear it's illegal. I can strengthen
your case as someone who's been harassed in the workplace
if you can show evidence that you've been retaliated against
(18:42):
because you've thought justice is that right? Absolutely? So what
you need to do to have a retaliation claim, which
um interestingly, it's often easier to prove because of the timing.
So what retaliation claim looks like is you take a
protected activity, which could be going to hr it could
(19:03):
be going to E, O C or another agency. It
could be filing a case in court, but it doesn't
have to be anything that formal. It could be standing
up and bringing an internal complaint. You've done something to
assert your rights under the law right and in response
that the employer has noticed of that and take some
negative action against you. It's quite a simple complaint because
(19:27):
you just have to show a protected activity or opposing
discrimination in some way, the employer has noticed that you
took that action and does something sort of significant that's
negative against you. Something I'm really struck by in this
program is the fact that we had a Walmart employee
on the show a couple of months back, and one
(19:47):
of the things that she talked about was that as
low wage workers, when you don't have a union, you
can often feel very alone when you're embarking on whether
it's a labor dispute, a theirpy dispute, a sexual Hara
Smith dispute, any of those things. And so that they've
kind of found these ways around them. They have these
apps where they can get information about labor laws and
(20:08):
fair fair pay practices, so that if something happens on
the job, they don't feel alone. And so and this
would have struck by the idea that these kind of
initiatives are making people who otherwise might feel alone, vulnerable,
powerless marginalized, giving them access to something that's like a network.
If you were going through something like this, you might
(20:29):
not have the first idea about who to contact, let
alone how to go through this, and you feel like
you're doing it alone, and that it's so powerful to
give people just even that feeling of a community of
people who have your back and can guide you through
what probably could be a really scary and intense process.
That's exactly right. I mean, many of us who are
(20:51):
employment or civil rights lawyers know that we frequently get
calls from friends friends of friends, relatives, etcetera for this
very information. So most of us have this sort of
here's the three firms in New York, or here's the
three firms in DC. That this is basically bringing this
to scale where you don't have to have a friend
or a relative who knows a lawyer. You can actually
(21:12):
sign up on this and get best information, and it
makes it more readily available to a larger group of
women and and other individuals. How many times have we
seen women helping other women and these kinds of like
whisper networks or campaigns where it's like, oh, I have
a friend of a friend who can help you, or
like here's a number from my neighbor who helps me,
and you're in the same jam that I was in.
(21:32):
I love the idea of bringing that to scale, like
you said, and having it be something that we just
have access to. It doesn't have to be a friend
of a friend slipping you with a business card or
a phone number or a name of someone who can
get you some help. I love how it's in this case,
it's Reese Witherspoon helping you out. It's Shannon Rhymes, it's
Meryl Streep, Steven Spielberg, these major donors who are in
(21:56):
the Hollywood activist elite, who have already lended their platforms
and now are opening up their wallets to make sure
that you don't need to be the kind of uh
in the kind of privileged position of having a friend
who is a lawyer or knowing someone in your family
who's a lawyer, and instead making it successibul to working
(22:16):
class women. Really bridges that divide that the Me Too
movement could have lent itself to, which is that divide
in class experience of the same kind of harassment, which
is in fact quite universal. And that's just it. I
think that it took this moment for these Hollywood celebrities
to see when they faced this issue, they were scared
(22:38):
to come forward. Despite their privilege, their wealth, and their
access to resources, they were still scared to come forward
in many instances. How much more scary is it for
someone without those marks of privilege. Absolutely, And I want
to talk also about one of the common practic usays
(23:00):
that we've seen employers put into place that can make
it even scarier these days, which are non disclosure agreements.
After this quick break and a word from our sponsors,
will be right back after this, and we are back
(23:22):
and we are speaking with Suonu Chandy, the National Women's
Law Centers Legal Director, all about this new initiative in
response to the Meat Too movement launched just at the
start of this brand new year. The Time's Up Legal
Defense Fund. Thank you so much for being here soon
you Sure so. We were at the break talking a
(23:45):
little bit about some of the systematic ways in which
some employers make it even scarier to make your voice heard,
and we alluded to this in the first episode we
covered here on the Meat Too movement at stuff Mom
Never told You, And that is this idea of non
disclosure agreements being something a lot of employers are having
(24:09):
new higher sign as a condition of getting the job.
Can you tell us about what that practice is and
why it can be so problematic and where Times Up
really stands on that issue. Sure so. The National Women's
Law Center supports movements to increase transparency about issues of
sexual harassment as they come up in a workplace, so
(24:30):
that individuals facing the circumstances find each other and fight
back together. So we would oppose sort of employment agreements
that upfront require employees to sign away their rights to
bring civil rights claims, or are forced to arbitrate these
sorts of claims, or are forced to keep silent about
issues that may come up in the workplace. So upfront
(24:53):
sort of requiring nondisclosure as a part of taking a
job is not something that we would support, and we
would support greater transparency in these matters. Honestly, I have
found that in looking into a lot of these cases,
transparency is really the name of the game. That you know,
having that ability to you know, tell your story or
whatever it is need to do is important, and that
(25:16):
you it's something that you shouldn't just give away, you know,
without thinking about it. That's right, And I think that
what gets tricky is that sometimes it says to be
balanced at the time of a settlement, and we want
to make sure that the power is always in the
hands of the individual who went through the sexual harassment.
And perhaps that's something that could be negotiated at the
(25:37):
time of a resolution. But this is not something UM
that we would support employers requiring workers to sign at
the start of employment. That's a really important point. I'm
glad that you added that. UM kind of switching gears
a little bit I'm sure that some of our listeners
out there or are lawyers and are thinking, Gee, I
am fired up, I am piste off, I want to
(25:59):
get involved. How can they do that? How can they
get involved? That would be wonderful. We are excited to
welcome more lawyers as part of the Legal Network for
Gender Equity. And if you go to the National Women's
Law Center website, you will see a page for the
Legal Network for Gender Equity, and there's a box for attorneys,
and there's a form that you fill out. You can
(26:20):
provide your information, your bar membership, and which areas that
you are interested in, and then you'll be on our
list and we will give your name to individuals who
are looking for help with sex discrimination cases. So please
please do sign up on our website. Awesome. I'm so
glad that you mentioned that. I have one last kind
of curveball question for you. I hope it's okay. I
(26:43):
noticed that you have an m f a in creative
writing and quite an extensive background in poetry. Have you
found that to be something that's been useful in this
awesome work for social change that you've been fighting for
as a lawyer. Oh? I love that question. Because it's
really all one vision. I'm lucky enough to be on
the board of an organization called Split This Rock, and
(27:05):
I encourage you to look look them up. That's a
separate from my work at the Nash Woman's Law Center,
of course, and it's a social justice poetry organization. And
for me, fighting back in terms of the culture change,
in terms of bringing forward everyone's voice that's missing from
society is something that poetry does and also something that
the law does. Can I ask you to share with
(27:28):
us a little bit of that poem or that poem
altogether if you've got it handy um. Sure. This poem
is called a good Job for sk dedicated to Samara
and her dad for fighting back in My father gave
me some good advice, she said, as we were chatting
during the break where we sat preparing her to take
the stand SK with her head covering and green daily
(27:51):
wear slim our commies. She continued, He told me, if
I study hard from my g E. D and get
into college and do well, then I can get a
good job, and in a good job, things like this
don't happen to girls. I can get a job where
men don't grab girls and try to kiss them in
the basement of the store. Upon hearing this, my eyes
felt sad, and my mind was unsure whether to break
(28:13):
this girl's delusion, whether to tell her that men try
to grab and kiss women in all kinds of good jobs.
Women in million dollar jobs speak to me about presidents
of companies grabbing them and worse. I was unsure whether
to explain that men in corporate positions think themselves even
more powerful than men who are supervisors of six little stores.
(28:34):
How to explain the complexities of human resources policies and
the legal ramifications of not having any Yes, maybe in
corporate jobs they have pieces of paper explaining sexual harassment,
but people still come to us about men grabbing them
and kissing them, no matter how much money they make
in their good jobs. Instead, I told her simply, yeah,
(28:56):
and some offices is better than others, and in some
offices it's better than in the little stores. And you
should study hard for your g e d. And go
to college, and you should get a good job. We
continue to prepare her testimony about how many times her
manager said I love you, and how many times he
said you have to go out with me or I'll
fire you. She told him, you know we're both Muslims.
(29:18):
You know this is wrong in our culture. Please stop it.
You know this is wrong. We went over her testimony
of how many times he touched her shoulders, how many
times he grabbed her hands, how many times he tried
to grab her waist in the basement, and how many
times he tried to kiss her. We prepared her testimony
as he dreamed of a better job, and I never
told her. I never said I am so sorry, darling,
(29:40):
to inform you that your lovely father is wrong. Studying
hard will not make the difference. Going to college will
not save you. A good job cannot protect you. These
evil men who are usually protected by the dead silence
in our communities, but not this time. By the time
this is over, these six stores will learn something about
sexual harassment and will pay a monetary settlement to you.
(30:04):
An uncle manager man will get some training and some counseling,
and we will carry forward a small hope that this
will be his last victim, so that any job, in
any job, good or bad, more of us might be safe.
Oh my god, that was such an incredible combinations that
(30:27):
your strength, that was beautiful. Thank you. I mean I
have chills. It's exactly what you spoke to, that intersection
of where HR policy, law, poetry and culture kind of
all come to a head, and you just you just
captured that in such a powerful, powerful way. Um, that
(30:51):
was really beautiful. I really feel so blessed that you
shared that with us and our listeners. Now you have
me on a rule. I have a very short pull
on the thing. Another job, awesome, Let's do it okay.
Holiday party two thousand nine, lovely restaurant basement, holiday lunch
with colleagues, federal government workers, pay for ourselves, pasta salmon
(31:16):
chocolate cake. I stare down at my ten year certificate
and pin my hopes on some other future civil rights
advocacy and pensions. Delightful, but still former director walks by
and says to soul male attorneys sitting with us, three,
not once, but twice. You got yourself three pretty ladies
there with you. You got yourself three whole ladies to yourself.
(31:40):
How is it, guy talk? If we are right here,
smart and invisible the first time, quiet the second, I
say to the new male colleague, laughing, leave it to
him to be consistently inappropriate sports talk. To begin every
staff meeting is one thing, but seeing three quote unquote
lady senior trial attorneys as only ladies as accessories another altogether.
(32:04):
Even I can laugh at holiday jokes, but later just
check who gets promoted. Laughing while cringing among smart, sexist,
once handsome men is an all females job descriptions. If
you are lucky, that is the extent of it. Damn
you are. First of all, you have a gift so
(32:26):
good at poems, oh man. But again it's it's this
powerful medium where you can tell these stories and I
don't think there's a woman working that would hear that
poem and not identify with it. Where being like with
an episode all around sexism and sexual harassment in the
technology sector, and they came up so often was this
(32:50):
idea that as women, it's not on our resume. But
knowing how to laugh off a sexual harass something that's
sexual harassid flirtation, knowing how to mitigate a sexual harassers
experiences so that you don't get fired or retaliated against
where you giggle and you don't get you know, your
job is not gonna be on the line. That sort
of a burden that for too long we've all had
(33:12):
to carry and then we've all had to sort of
have this on this untold, unwritten thing in our job
descriptions if we want to be successful. And it gets
even more difficult because part of the standard, the legal
standard for sexual harassment, is showing that the behavior is unwelcome.
(33:35):
So and we know that likability matters in the workplace.
So navigating that is like tap dancing on a tight rope.
You can't It's hard to win, that's right. It's very
much a rock at a hard place because if you
don't say stop, don't do this, this is bothering me,
you run the risk of someone saying, oh, she was laughing,
(33:55):
was no big deal, like she was joking around too, right.
But if you do a stop, this is bothering me.
This is not okay. All of a sudden, you are
at risk for retaliation. You're not playing along. God forbid.
You should offend right bruce someone's ego to where I
(34:16):
have to ask, where can folks learn more about Split
This Rock? So? Split This Rock is a wonderful social
justice poetry organization. We are celebrating our tenth anniversary and
on the board and you can go to Split this
rock dot org. And I also really want to highlight
the fact that we have a festival every two years
(34:37):
and it's coming up soon April nineteen to twenty one
here in Washington, d C. And people come from around
the country and many sort of really notable social justice
poets come from around the country, and it's not to
be missed, and there's a sliding scale of costs to
a tenth and it's a three day festival, So definitely
encourage everyone to check it out at split the is
(35:00):
rock dot org. Well, thank you so so much for
joining us and telling us all about the amazing work
that you're doing with the National Women's Law Center and
Time's Up, and for blessing our earbuds with your gift
of poetry. Well that was a surprise question, but thanks
for oportunity to go in that direction too. As I said,
(35:20):
I think getting our stories out there and fighting back
takes a lot of different avenues, and the law is
definitely one and poetry is another. So thanks for talking
to me about both of them. That was so incredible.
Uh did not see getting a couple of poems in
this one, but you never know where these conversations will take.
Us listeners. You want to hear from you. What are
(35:42):
you thinking about times Up? Are you so excited to
see where it goes? Do you think it's going to
be the reckoning that we're all hoping it will be.
How do you think that these Hollywood celebrities wearing black
will impact all of this? What are your thoughts on it?
You want to hear from you, and we'll be tweeting
along as the Golden Globes sort of make that public
display of solidarity and support for Time's Up, So don't
(36:02):
forget to tune in and tweet along with us at
mom Stuff podcast, hit us up on Instagram at stuff
Mom Never Told You, And as always, we want to
hear from you, your stories, your motivation, how you're going
to be a part of the me too movement and
the Time's Up movement saying enough is enough, It's time
for systemic change. Send us your emails at mom Stuff
(36:23):
at how stuff works dot com
Hey, this is Bridget and this is Emily, and you're
listening the stuff Mom never told you. And today trigger warning,
we're talking about the me too campaign and sexual fault.
(00:25):
So that's something that's tough for you. Just know that's
this episode is all about again again a bird episode
around me too and what feels like a reckoning for
powerful men who are creeps. And you know what, I
love today's episode because instead of chronicling all the men
who have been outed as perverts and creeps and who
(00:47):
have hopefully gone down in flames, today is about positive, proactive,
systemic change that is being advocated for on behalf of
women from all walks of life. And so today while
we are talking about meets you again, this is a
different take on it and it really got me excited
about the potential for to really be a time of
(01:09):
proactive advocacy and change on this issue. Totally. So just
two levels that where we're at in terms of me too.
A few new creeps have been outed. This is always
going to be an abbreviated list because the list is
ever growing. Um you may have seen some new industries
on that list. Mario Batali, the World Round Chef, was
outed as a creep and in his email about said allegations,
(01:31):
what else other than an apology? What else did he include?
Did a recipe that was like side by side with
his assault apology? Yeah? Basically he said, listen, these allegations happen.
I'm sorry, I'm stepping down. Ps. If you want a
recipe for cinnamon rolls made from pizza dough, here's a
crowd pleaser. I didn't think it could get any better
(01:54):
than Louis Kay's not apology, but that really takes the
cake when takes the cinnamon rolls. Yeah. Alongside Batallity, we
had Danny Masterson, who was the guy from that DevD show.
Women have long accused him of rape and Netflix just
recently announced that he would be off the show The Ranch.
This has kind of been a long time coming for him.
(02:15):
I know that there have been allegations for a long
time and people really holding Netflix's feet to the fire
on accountability, so this is would have been a long
time coming. In addition to that, in the politics world,
John Conyers also taken down by these allegations, and his
office was the first office that I interned in as
a young intern on the House Judiciary committee. I lasted
two weeks. The hill was not for me. But yeah,
(02:37):
I mean, very previously well respected, renowned advocate, civil rights leader,
uh Rep. John Connor's going down, and he did not
go down without a fight. He did not another sort
of update to the initial person who seemed to sort
of trigger all of this. Actress Selma Hiak, on December
twelve wrote a really powerful and compelling and in The
(03:00):
New York Times that her relationship with Harvey Weinstein and
really how this man had controlled her for a very
long time. She described desperately wanting to produce a film
that the Mexican muralist frieda Calo, and being so delighted
when Weinstein became attached to the project, but later he
began propositioning her. She writes, little did I know it
would be my turn to say no, not to opening
(03:21):
the door to him at all hours of the night,
hotel after hotel, location after location where he would show
up unexpectedly, including one location during a movie where he
wasn't even involved with no, to me taking a shower
with him. The range of his persuasion tactics went from
sweet talking to me that one time when in an
attack of theory. He said these terrifying words, I will
kill you. Don't think I can't. It's pretty nauseating. She
(03:43):
goes on to talk about how he almost stripped her
from the Freedom project that she had been so excited
to work on, and the only way that she could
get him to not do that was by agreeing to
film a full frontal nude scene with another woman, which
is so creepy and so gross and so indicative of
(04:04):
the kind of like limitless power that this man wielded
over women in Hollywood. And it was brave of her,
some might even say unnecessary to come out with such
a powerful, compelling, vulnerable peace, even after he had already
been taken down in a lot of ways. You know,
she didn't have to do that, and to me, that
(04:26):
speaks even further to her character of wanting to make
sure that, you know, despite whatever personal reputation hits she
might take, she wanted to add her voice to the
chorus of women asking for justice and retribution. And I
think it's indicative of Hollywood women really leading this conversation,
(04:49):
which is an uncomfortable position because we know it's not
Hollywood women alone who have to deal with sexual assault
predatory bosses, power being wielded over your own body. And
yet they have taken the mantle of leadership in terms
of using their influence, using their platforms, and now using
their financial privilege to bridge that divide between women with
(05:13):
extreme financial privilege facing sexual assault in their workplaces and
women who are working class and dealing with the same
kind of bullsh that we have been far too many
cases all dealt with exactly. On January one of this
new year, a group of prominent women in the entertainment
industry launched times up, an initiative to combat sexual misconduct
not just in Hollywood but in other industries. To these
(05:35):
three hundred actresses, agents, writers, directors, producers, and entertainment executives
really are getting together this network where they can say, hey,
our industry has this problem. We want to focus on it,
but we want to help other women who might not
have our access, our privilege, our power, our money. We
want to make sure those women are covered to exactly. So,
they've got an array of initiatives that are part of
(05:57):
the hashtag times up effort that really is setting out
to fight systemic sexual harassment in Hollywood and in blue
collar workplaces. Nationwide. Their website Times up now dot Com
describes it as a movement powered by women that addresses
systemic inequality and injustice in the workplace that it's kept
(06:18):
under represented groups from reaching their full potential. They're going
to partner with leading advocates for equality and safety to
improve laws, employment agreements, and corporate policies. And finally, and
arguably most importantly, they're aiming to enable more women and
men to access legal resources to hold wrongdoers accountable. This
(06:40):
movement was announced January first with an in passionate pledge
with support for working class women in an open letter
signed by hundreds of women in show business, many of
them you know, Hollywood A listers. The letter also ran
as a full page ad in both The New York
Times and Opinion, a Spanish language newsletter. And so we're
talking folks like Shonda Rhymes, like Reese Withers, like Meryl Streep.
(07:01):
Not only did they all sign onto this impassioned letter,
but they also want other A listers to get involved.
They're calling for all these famous Hollywood elite to all
wear black to the Golden Globes to symbolize their commitment
to combating sexual harassment and all its forms across industries.
And our favorite part of this initiative is that it
(07:22):
explicitly includes marginalized women at the forefront. So right now,
we know that in the wake of the Me Too movement,
a lot of the critiques that have been levied their
way have to do with the fact that these are
centered on Hollywood A listers, Hollywood A listeners who were
still victimized and fearful of of what they had to
(07:43):
lose in speaking out, but still women with a lot
more privilege going for them than the average blue collar worker.
Attorney Tina Chen, who was the former assistant to President
Barack Obama and chief of staff for First Lady Michelle Obama,
is spearheading the Times Up Legal Defense Fund, which is
administered by it's a partnership with really the National Women's
(08:05):
Law Centers Legal Network for Gender Equity, and that's why
we are so excited to dive more into how important
this initiative is at making legal resources available to women
from all walks of life who needs support in speaking
out against cultures of assault and harassment at work. We're
(08:25):
gonna dive more into that after this quick break, and
we're back and we are so thrilled to be joined
today by the National Women's Law Centers. Sunu Chandi, the
National Women's Law Center Legal Director. Sunu joins the National
Women's Law Center from the Civil Rights Division of h
(08:47):
S and the E E O C before that, which
if you listen to the show, you know we talk
about a lot. She's an expert on legal issues facing
women in the workplace, including sexual harassment. She's been an
integral part of getting the legal network for gender equity
off the ground. Thank you so much for joining us today.
Thank you for having me. I think it's such an
exciting time to look back at the me too momentum,
(09:09):
and let's talk about times up. Let's talk about this
movement to be proactive about providing solutions on a systemic
level so that we don't have to watch the headlines
every single week of who's being called out as a perpet. Now,
I think this is a much more positive framing of
what are we doing to curb this systemic problem? So
(09:31):
what is Time's Up all about? Okay, so we are
really excited that, um, a group of celebrities in Hollywood
decided to pool their funds and look at how they
can financially support legally fighting back by low age women
and women across a number of workplaces who are facing
(09:54):
sexual harassment and retaliation in connection with harassment. So what
that means is the Legal Network for Gender Equity, which
the National Women's Lost Center launched in October, has additional
support um to get more lawyers to take on these cases. So,
as you may know, to bring litigation can often be expensive,
(10:17):
both for attorney time and also all the different pieces
that go into litigation such as court fees, paying for depositions,
or the various steps that happened before a trial. And
when a lawyer takes a case, you're not sure if
it's a case that will be maybe settled or resolved
within a few weeks or months, or a case that
could take a few years. And so it's a financially
(10:39):
risky for lawyers to take on sexual harassment cases or
any sort of workplace civil rights cases. So what the
times that fund is is these Hollywood celebrities have come
together and pulled significant amounts of money so that women
in all different workplaces can have more access to fighting
back against sexual harassment. On the National Women's Law Center's website, UM.
(11:02):
There's a place to sign up as lawyers who want
to take part in this work, and also for individuals
who are seeking legal help, they can also sign up
and they'll receive the names of about three lawyers and
then they can follow up to contact them for a
free initial consultation, and then what the fund will be
used to is to support the cases that are actually
(11:23):
taken up UM to go forward through litigation. So ultimately,
this is a way that women in low wage workplaces
will have some financial and legal support in fighting back
against sex harassment. I think that's so so critical to
what you're doing. I know one of the biggest criticisms
folks made with me Too was that it seemed to
(11:46):
center Hollywood A listers who you think might already be
coming from a place of privilege, when we know sexual
harassment and sexual misconduct impacts all of us, whether you're privileged,
whether you're marginalized. In fact, if you're a marginalized person,
you probably more are likely to be facing these issues.
And so you know, you had these women who are
not Hollywood A listers, like the seven thousand female farm
(12:08):
workers who penned an open letter about harassment in November
or these women who worked for Ford Motor Company on
the floor at these car plants who also spoke up
about harassment. I love that what you're doing with Time's
Up is really centering all different kinds of women's experiences
and giving all of these different kinds of women from
different backgrounds access to legal services so they can really
(12:31):
speak up and get justice. So and it really just
shows that this movement is not about just Hollywood A listers.
It's about all of us. That's exactly right. And you know,
on one level, UM individuals of all genders and women
of course that fails face sexual harassments across industry, so
from the financial industry, the tech industry, actresses, and also
(12:53):
the group that this fund is supposed to support, which
is hotel workers, restaurant workers, and workers in low wage
work who are even more unable to bring these cases forward,
both because maybe they don't know who to contact, who
to trust, and also this barrier of having to pay
for litigation. So this um legal network for gender equity
(13:17):
with times Up is a really wonderful pairing because we
have attorneys who have said we want to take on
sexual harassment cases, and we also have some funds to
help support those cases. So both of these are really
critical and needed by women in low wage work who
are facing sexual harassment or retaliation. Yeah, thirteen million dollars
(13:38):
in funds, which is no small achievement already, which is
really something to be proud of and is going to
help make the traditional systems of labor power something that's
now accessible to low wage workers. And that's that's my
question in all of this, especially when I was listening
to the Daily The New York Times podcast about the
(14:00):
Ford Motor Company and the harassment that women continued to
face decades after litigation was brought against the company. What
is the role for labor in this movement? Because we're
we're big labor activists here, Bridge and I we sort
of came up in the labor movement, and yet we're
also millennials who don't expect to ever have a pension
(14:22):
or you know, we always turned to the e o
C because job site committees seem to be one alternative
to what used to be a traditional labor infrastructure that
could help protect women in this case. So where do
you see this solution fitting in and is it filling
(14:43):
a gap? As it feeling a void that was once
occupied by a stronger labor movement. Yeah. I mean it's
interesting because we definitely see um labor unions as an
important partner. I mean we can look and see that
there are more sort of women and people of color
are are largely reflected, and especially public sector unions, and
(15:04):
there are issues that have come up where we have
worked with unions to take up issues of discrimination. I
think this is an area where workers centers, labor unions,
individual workers all need to take this up. It's going
to take all of us. There are definitely moments in
time where labor unions have taken up um sort of
pay equity or discrimination or harassment faced by people of color,
(15:28):
or have provided benefits to LGBT workers, and have done
things to support sort of progressive movements and causes. So
I think that labor unions are definitely part of the
solution and need to be challenged to continue to be
part of the solution. Also, there are many workers centers
who serve this role too, but there are also many
(15:51):
many workplaces where there aren't unions and individual workers are
sort of feel alone in this taking up the mantle,
and so that I think is a time when having
a lawyer advocate to guide you and advise you is
even more critical. And you know, anyone can contact the
legal network, whether that person has a union there or not.
(16:11):
I think if there's a union there, or if there's
some state protections against termination, that gives individuals that much
more strength in coming forward to file any sort of
claim or take part in any sort of sexual harassment complaint,
because without the union there, or without other local civil
(16:32):
rights protections or labor protections, it's a risk. It's always
a risk, and that's why retaliation is also part of
what we're looking at in sexual harassment cases. But also
anything negative that happens to a worker for coming forward
counts could count as retaliation, and the standard is quite broad. Um,
so it doesn't have to be a termination. It could
(16:53):
be you're losing clients, or losing hours, or losing shifts.
Any of those things could be seen as retaliation were
coming forward. Yeah, I'm just really curious what has retaliation
looked like because I think of retaliation as you lost
your job, But you just mentioned some things that I'd
never even occurred to me. Losing clients, getting bad mouthed
around town, what kind of forms can retaliation take in
(17:15):
a sexual harassment situation? And you know what to add
to that? Can we back up for one second and
explain why is that legally important? So? How are workers
protected from retaliation? What are the kinds of punitive um
responses that you can take for companies who are penalizing
women who are speaking out and making their voices heard
(17:37):
through legal action. Sure, so retaliation can take many, many forms,
and fortunately the law has evolved to recognize that, and
the Supreme Court has recognized that what retaliation means in
each workplace depends on what's valued in that workplace. So
(17:57):
for many years at EO c A litigated a case
um in the fast food industry and what what retaliation
looked like in that industry was you always had to
clean the bathroom. In another workplace, retaliation could be you
don't get invited to launch with a client. So it
could be anything that sort of significantly impacts you in
the workplace. It could also be things beyond the workplace.
(18:20):
We there's also a trend where individuals are sued and
deformation claims are brought against individuals after they bring a
sexual harassment case. That's could that could be a form
of retaliation, so we're clear it's illegal. I can strengthen
your case as someone who's been harassed in the workplace
if you can show evidence that you've been retaliated against
(18:42):
because you've thought justice is that right? Absolutely? So what
you need to do to have a retaliation claim, which
um interestingly, it's often easier to prove because of the timing.
So what retaliation claim looks like is you take a
protected activity, which could be going to hr it could
(19:03):
be going to E, O C or another agency. It
could be filing a case in court, but it doesn't
have to be anything that formal. It could be standing
up and bringing an internal complaint. You've done something to
assert your rights under the law right and in response
that the employer has noticed of that and take some
negative action against you. It's quite a simple complaint because
(19:27):
you just have to show a protected activity or opposing
discrimination in some way, the employer has noticed that you
took that action and does something sort of significant that's
negative against you. Something I'm really struck by in this
program is the fact that we had a Walmart employee
on the show a couple of months back, and one
(19:47):
of the things that she talked about was that as
low wage workers, when you don't have a union, you
can often feel very alone when you're embarking on whether
it's a labor dispute, a theirpy dispute, a sexual Hara
Smith dispute, any of those things. And so that they've
kind of found these ways around them. They have these
apps where they can get information about labor laws and
(20:08):
fair fair pay practices, so that if something happens on
the job, they don't feel alone. And so and this
would have struck by the idea that these kind of
initiatives are making people who otherwise might feel alone, vulnerable,
powerless marginalized, giving them access to something that's like a network.
If you were going through something like this, you might
(20:29):
not have the first idea about who to contact, let
alone how to go through this, and you feel like
you're doing it alone, and that it's so powerful to
give people just even that feeling of a community of
people who have your back and can guide you through
what probably could be a really scary and intense process.
That's exactly right. I mean, many of us who are
(20:51):
employment or civil rights lawyers know that we frequently get
calls from friends friends of friends, relatives, etcetera for this
very information. So most of us have this sort of
here's the three firms in New York, or here's the
three firms in DC. That this is basically bringing this
to scale where you don't have to have a friend
or a relative who knows a lawyer. You can actually
(21:12):
sign up on this and get best information, and it
makes it more readily available to a larger group of
women and and other individuals. How many times have we
seen women helping other women and these kinds of like
whisper networks or campaigns where it's like, oh, I have
a friend of a friend who can help you, or
like here's a number from my neighbor who helps me,
and you're in the same jam that I was in.
(21:32):
I love the idea of bringing that to scale, like
you said, and having it be something that we just
have access to. It doesn't have to be a friend
of a friend slipping you with a business card or
a phone number or a name of someone who can
get you some help. I love how it's in this case,
it's Reese Witherspoon helping you out. It's Shannon Rhymes, it's
Meryl Streep, Steven Spielberg, these major donors who are in
(21:56):
the Hollywood activist elite, who have already lended their platforms
and now are opening up their wallets to make sure
that you don't need to be the kind of uh
in the kind of privileged position of having a friend
who is a lawyer or knowing someone in your family
who's a lawyer, and instead making it successibul to working
(22:16):
class women. Really bridges that divide that the Me Too
movement could have lent itself to, which is that divide
in class experience of the same kind of harassment, which
is in fact quite universal. And that's just it. I
think that it took this moment for these Hollywood celebrities
to see when they faced this issue, they were scared
(22:38):
to come forward. Despite their privilege, their wealth, and their
access to resources, they were still scared to come forward
in many instances. How much more scary is it for
someone without those marks of privilege. Absolutely, And I want
to talk also about one of the common practic usays
(23:00):
that we've seen employers put into place that can make
it even scarier these days, which are non disclosure agreements.
After this quick break and a word from our sponsors,
will be right back after this, and we are back
(23:22):
and we are speaking with Suonu Chandy, the National Women's
Law Centers Legal Director, all about this new initiative in
response to the Meat Too movement launched just at the
start of this brand new year. The Time's Up Legal
Defense Fund. Thank you so much for being here soon
you Sure so. We were at the break talking a
(23:45):
little bit about some of the systematic ways in which
some employers make it even scarier to make your voice heard,
and we alluded to this in the first episode we
covered here on the Meat Too movement at stuff Mom
Never told You, And that is this idea of non
disclosure agreements being something a lot of employers are having
(24:09):
new higher sign as a condition of getting the job.
Can you tell us about what that practice is and
why it can be so problematic and where Times Up
really stands on that issue. Sure so. The National Women's
Law Center supports movements to increase transparency about issues of
sexual harassment as they come up in a workplace, so
(24:30):
that individuals facing the circumstances find each other and fight
back together. So we would oppose sort of employment agreements
that upfront require employees to sign away their rights to
bring civil rights claims, or are forced to arbitrate these
sorts of claims, or are forced to keep silent about
issues that may come up in the workplace. So upfront
(24:53):
sort of requiring nondisclosure as a part of taking a
job is not something that we would support, and we
would support greater transparency in these matters. Honestly, I have
found that in looking into a lot of these cases,
transparency is really the name of the game. That you know,
having that ability to you know, tell your story or
whatever it is need to do is important, and that
(25:16):
you it's something that you shouldn't just give away, you know,
without thinking about it. That's right, And I think that
what gets tricky is that sometimes it says to be
balanced at the time of a settlement, and we want
to make sure that the power is always in the
hands of the individual who went through the sexual harassment.
And perhaps that's something that could be negotiated at the
(25:37):
time of a resolution. But this is not something UM
that we would support employers requiring workers to sign at
the start of employment. That's a really important point. I'm
glad that you added that. UM kind of switching gears
a little bit I'm sure that some of our listeners
out there or are lawyers and are thinking, Gee, I
am fired up, I am piste off, I want to
(25:59):
get involved. How can they do that? How can they
get involved? That would be wonderful. We are excited to
welcome more lawyers as part of the Legal Network for
Gender Equity. And if you go to the National Women's
Law Center website, you will see a page for the
Legal Network for Gender Equity, and there's a box for attorneys,
and there's a form that you fill out. You can
(26:20):
provide your information, your bar membership, and which areas that
you are interested in, and then you'll be on our
list and we will give your name to individuals who
are looking for help with sex discrimination cases. So please
please do sign up on our website. Awesome. I'm so
glad that you mentioned that. I have one last kind
of curveball question for you. I hope it's okay. I
(26:43):
noticed that you have an m f a in creative
writing and quite an extensive background in poetry. Have you
found that to be something that's been useful in this
awesome work for social change that you've been fighting for
as a lawyer. Oh? I love that question. Because it's
really all one vision. I'm lucky enough to be on
the board of an organization called Split This Rock, and
(27:05):
I encourage you to look look them up. That's a
separate from my work at the Nash Woman's Law Center,
of course, and it's a social justice poetry organization. And
for me, fighting back in terms of the culture change,
in terms of bringing forward everyone's voice that's missing from
society is something that poetry does and also something that
the law does. Can I ask you to share with
(27:28):
us a little bit of that poem or that poem
altogether if you've got it handy um. Sure. This poem
is called a good Job for sk dedicated to Samara
and her dad for fighting back in My father gave
me some good advice, she said, as we were chatting
during the break where we sat preparing her to take
the stand SK with her head covering and green daily
(27:51):
wear slim our commies. She continued, He told me, if
I study hard from my g E. D and get
into college and do well, then I can get a
good job, and in a good job, things like this
don't happen to girls. I can get a job where
men don't grab girls and try to kiss them in
the basement of the store. Upon hearing this, my eyes
felt sad, and my mind was unsure whether to break
(28:13):
this girl's delusion, whether to tell her that men try
to grab and kiss women in all kinds of good jobs.
Women in million dollar jobs speak to me about presidents
of companies grabbing them and worse. I was unsure whether
to explain that men in corporate positions think themselves even
more powerful than men who are supervisors of six little stores.
(28:34):
How to explain the complexities of human resources policies and
the legal ramifications of not having any Yes, maybe in
corporate jobs they have pieces of paper explaining sexual harassment,
but people still come to us about men grabbing them
and kissing them, no matter how much money they make
in their good jobs. Instead, I told her simply, yeah,
(28:56):
and some offices is better than others, and in some
offices it's better than in the little stores. And you
should study hard for your g e d. And go
to college, and you should get a good job. We
continue to prepare her testimony about how many times her
manager said I love you, and how many times he
said you have to go out with me or I'll
fire you. She told him, you know we're both Muslims.
(29:18):
You know this is wrong in our culture. Please stop it.
You know this is wrong. We went over her testimony
of how many times he touched her shoulders, how many
times he grabbed her hands, how many times he tried
to grab her waist in the basement, and how many
times he tried to kiss her. We prepared her testimony
as he dreamed of a better job, and I never
told her. I never said I am so sorry, darling,
(29:40):
to inform you that your lovely father is wrong. Studying
hard will not make the difference. Going to college will
not save you. A good job cannot protect you. These
evil men who are usually protected by the dead silence
in our communities, but not this time. By the time
this is over, these six stores will learn something about
sexual harassment and will pay a monetary settlement to you.
(30:04):
An uncle manager man will get some training and some counseling,
and we will carry forward a small hope that this
will be his last victim, so that any job, in
any job, good or bad, more of us might be safe.
Oh my god, that was such an incredible combinations that
(30:27):
your strength, that was beautiful. Thank you. I mean I
have chills. It's exactly what you spoke to, that intersection
of where HR policy, law, poetry and culture kind of
all come to a head, and you just you just
captured that in such a powerful, powerful way. Um, that
(30:51):
was really beautiful. I really feel so blessed that you
shared that with us and our listeners. Now you have
me on a rule. I have a very short pull
on the thing. Another job, awesome, Let's do it okay.
Holiday party two thousand nine, lovely restaurant basement, holiday lunch
with colleagues, federal government workers, pay for ourselves, pasta salmon
(31:16):
chocolate cake. I stare down at my ten year certificate
and pin my hopes on some other future civil rights
advocacy and pensions. Delightful, but still former director walks by
and says to soul male attorneys sitting with us, three,
not once, but twice. You got yourself three pretty ladies
there with you. You got yourself three whole ladies to yourself.
(31:40):
How is it, guy talk? If we are right here,
smart and invisible the first time, quiet the second, I
say to the new male colleague, laughing, leave it to
him to be consistently inappropriate sports talk. To begin every
staff meeting is one thing, but seeing three quote unquote
lady senior trial attorneys as only ladies as accessories another altogether.
(32:04):
Even I can laugh at holiday jokes, but later just
check who gets promoted. Laughing while cringing among smart, sexist,
once handsome men is an all females job descriptions. If
you are lucky, that is the extent of it. Damn
you are. First of all, you have a gift so
(32:26):
good at poems, oh man. But again it's it's this
powerful medium where you can tell these stories and I
don't think there's a woman working that would hear that
poem and not identify with it. Where being like with
an episode all around sexism and sexual harassment in the
technology sector, and they came up so often was this
(32:50):
idea that as women, it's not on our resume. But
knowing how to laugh off a sexual harass something that's
sexual harassid flirtation, knowing how to mitigate a sexual harassers
experiences so that you don't get fired or retaliated against
where you giggle and you don't get you know, your
job is not gonna be on the line. That sort
of a burden that for too long we've all had
(33:12):
to carry and then we've all had to sort of
have this on this untold, unwritten thing in our job
descriptions if we want to be successful. And it gets
even more difficult because part of the standard, the legal
standard for sexual harassment, is showing that the behavior is unwelcome.
(33:35):
So and we know that likability matters in the workplace.
So navigating that is like tap dancing on a tight rope.
You can't It's hard to win, that's right. It's very
much a rock at a hard place because if you
don't say stop, don't do this, this is bothering me,
you run the risk of someone saying, oh, she was laughing,
(33:55):
was no big deal, like she was joking around too, right.
But if you do a stop, this is bothering me.
This is not okay. All of a sudden, you are
at risk for retaliation. You're not playing along. God forbid.
You should offend right bruce someone's ego to where I
(34:16):
have to ask, where can folks learn more about Split
This Rock? So? Split This Rock is a wonderful social
justice poetry organization. We are celebrating our tenth anniversary and
on the board and you can go to Split this
rock dot org. And I also really want to highlight
the fact that we have a festival every two years
(34:37):
and it's coming up soon April nineteen to twenty one
here in Washington, d C. And people come from around
the country and many sort of really notable social justice
poets come from around the country, and it's not to
be missed, and there's a sliding scale of costs to
a tenth and it's a three day festival, So definitely
encourage everyone to check it out at split the is
(35:00):
rock dot org. Well, thank you so so much for
joining us and telling us all about the amazing work
that you're doing with the National Women's Law Center and
Time's Up, and for blessing our earbuds with your gift
of poetry. Well that was a surprise question, but thanks
for oportunity to go in that direction too. As I said,
(35:20):
I think getting our stories out there and fighting back
takes a lot of different avenues, and the law is
definitely one and poetry is another. So thanks for talking
to me about both of them. That was so incredible.
Uh did not see getting a couple of poems in
this one, but you never know where these conversations will take.
Us listeners. You want to hear from you. What are
(35:42):
you thinking about times Up? Are you so excited to
see where it goes? Do you think it's going to
be the reckoning that we're all hoping it will be.
How do you think that these Hollywood celebrities wearing black
will impact all of this? What are your thoughts on it?
You want to hear from you, and we'll be tweeting
along as the Golden Globes sort of make that public
display of solidarity and support for Time's Up, So don't
(36:02):
forget to tune in and tweet along with us at
mom Stuff podcast, hit us up on Instagram at stuff
Mom Never Told You, And as always, we want to
hear from you, your stories, your motivation, how you're going
to be a part of the me too movement and
the Time's Up movement saying enough is enough, It's time
for systemic change. Send us your emails at mom Stuff
(36:23):
at how stuff works dot com
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