June 15, 2019 • 45 mins
In our pop culture, women frequently lust after monsters. Why is that?
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Speaker 1 (00:04):
Hey, this is Annie and I'm Samantha, and welcome to stuff.
And I've never told your protection of I heart radios
how staff works. Okay, all right, here we go today.
We are finally tackling a topic I have wanted to
(00:25):
talk about for a long time. I believe in the
first ever episode that I was on that wasn't kind
of an intro episode, I mentioned that I wanted to
talk about this, right, I think you told me that
pretty quickly as one of your ideas when we were
discussing the future of Sementy. And I'm like, I don't
know if I can contribute to this, but I will
beat there to listen. Perfect. Yeah, yes, and I've wanted
(00:45):
to talk about this, like just not even on podcast,
but just a woman about town, a woman of South Town.
Even I'm a woman about town since Twilight was at
its cheek because I I was just so kind of
befuddled and intrigued about what was happening. So did you
(01:08):
watch any of the Twilight? I watched the first one,
And I'm not here to make fun of what anyone enjoys. Um,
I just wasn't right. I went in blind and I
laughed at a part I'm not sure I was supposed
to laugh at the whole first movie was kind of laughing.
It was the first movie, and this young girl behind
me threatened to cut me in an alleyway, and I
(01:30):
was like, I want to talk about this one day.
I'll have a podcast of my own and I can
I can delve into. So I was in the middle
of the Twilight frenzy as well, and I was much
older than the majority of the Twilight people who Twilight fans.
I think the fandom um, and I will say it
was really enjoyable, and I did like it because it
was an easy read and it was really like mind
(01:52):
numbing in the sense of like you don't have to
think too hard into it. And as any other thing
we talked about fan growling, Yeah, which is sex. This
is in a comment, but essentially um, the idea that
you get really obsessive with the character and or an idea,
and this is kind of that world of that fantasy world,
which also translated into Fifts of Gray. Yes, Twilight, right,
(02:15):
but it brought that same kind of satuation, brought that
for older women and older generations. That would have been
the way for Twilight. I think, yeah, and I That's
why I don't want to be judgmental of that, because
I think because I don't like romance, that's why I
didn't like Twilight. But if I fan girl about so
(02:36):
much stuff, right was believe me, Harry Potter, I went
and it's still still right. And I think for me,
I'm not necessarily all about romance, but as a person
who wished to have romance or wish for the perfect
idea of romance. Um, but I'm cynical in real life
oddly enough, and I'm like, yeah, this would be awesome. Yeah,
(02:58):
I'll take your word for it. I'm just saying we
will be returning to Twilight. I love how we always
bury the lead of what the episode is about. So
we're talking about no, no, no, no no, I love it.
We're talking about women and monsters and kind of this
this trope and this attraction of it seems and a
lot of our media women and monsters, right, vampires being
(03:19):
one of those. And before we get into it, trigger
warnings were, I mean, this is just gonna kind of
come up. We're not going to delve into it, but art, yeah, esque,
there is one thing that I will maybe say it's
not but it's it's generally we're just kind of mentioning
these things rape, sexual assault and general warning about porn
(03:40):
and fetishes, and um, we do want to be careful
to not judge any consensual, safe, healthy things that people
are into, right and again, and we'll be talking more
and more about this with like the b D s
M and bondage. But everything has to do with constant
and communication in being an adult who can consent legally. Yes, um,
(04:05):
so let's get into it. I'm so excited. Even if
there's no sexual attraction, it's hard to deny after looking
at our pop culture that we don't find monsters, especially
the more human esque humanoid ones appealing. People writing about
the popularity of monsters point to their relatability. They're different
(04:27):
than us humans here, but we can see ourselves in them,
and a lot of us can connect with that feeling
of being outcasts. Right, you want to be the underdog
that comes out on top. Yes, Yes, we love an underdog.
And like I've said many times, I think horror movies
are great mirrors to reflect back what we as a
society have hang ups around um, and something similar can
(04:49):
be said around monsters. They embody both fear and desirability
and fear around desirability, And really, doesn't that sound like
we're describing at a shoots around sex. Yeah, I mean,
I will say for me, and it's not exactly a
monster monster, but like dexter. Uh. His character was intriguing
to me because it had a bit of my biggest
(05:10):
fear of who I could be. Really right, yeah, getting up?
Are you a little nervous? Now? Are you a little nervous?
Because he reflects a lot about trauma and childhood. But
at the same time, he kinda is that guy that
as the monster you want to make better somehow. Yeah. Yeah,
(05:30):
it's a really interesting dichotomy. I was trying to explain
to a friend after perhaps one too many tea glasses
wine at five am. Um, yes this is after we karaoke.
I'll see, this is why I can't hang with you
past like money. We had to wait for our pizza
to and I was just explaining to her she does
(05:53):
this thing where she becomes contrary when she's drunk um,
and she was picking a fight with me, but she
was like, I don't understand why you like the Winter
Soldiers so much because his hair parts so weird. And
I'm like, it has nothing to do with looks. It's
all about the trauma he represents, right, and that's very true. Anyway,
we're getting away from the point. I'm so sorry. No, no,
there's so many examples of this in so many Beauty
(06:16):
and the Beast, Dracula, Twilight, Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Vampire Diaries,
True Blood. Although there's a lot of attraction going on
in True Blood, they have all the monsters. In True
Blood you have from like Werewolves two which is to
vampires too. Ferries. Yeah, I guess that's not really a
monster is actually they turned out to be monsters and
(06:39):
True Blood Oh dear, I mean that makes sense. I included.
I just wanted to include that because they think in
True Blood it's just generally a lot of attraction and desirability,
but there are a lot of monsters and they're all
the whole like idea of saving that one, Like, what
is that innocent character? Yeah, she's kind of the innocent
(07:01):
virgin that they're trying to take care of. All of
them are fighting over her, one pure, very white, very
blonde girl with all the monsters around her, and how
she attracts those people that's part of our sexuality as well.
For me, it is absolutely a part of this, oh
for sure. Um. Shape of Water is a big recent
one Venom, which apparently caused a lot of excitement for
(07:22):
some folks. I can't remember it's called. There's a name
for it, but because I was gonna say, Tom Hardy, right, yeah,
end the story. I've never seen this movie, but double Hardys. Oh,
I've seen it an embarrassing amount of times because of
my parody that I'm making that right, Yes, it's all
for that. Oh well you will be so good. Um.
(07:44):
And it's slightly different for this example of venom because
this was the audience being attracted to the monster as
opposed to like in the movie. I think it's an
interpretation from the audience. But I want to concluded Tom Hardy. Yeah,
but there's even that. It was big enough that the
company that produced this, which I believe is Sony, Um,
(08:05):
they released a trailer after the movie came out that
painted it as a rom com. It was that big
of a kid. No, and it's great, It's it's great.
I guess I need to watch it. I have not
seen anything. I mean, yes, but it's not good. But
you know. Apologies to anyone who likes me out there.
I mean, but I mean, I mean, do you do
(08:27):
what you want to do. I'm just a kind of
warn you. It's fun, but perhaps not okay. Older movies
were likely to include a less human looking creature lusting
after a human woman, like King Kong. I think there
is something different about these old school monster movies too,
because they were less about female desire and how we
view it and more about the male gaze. And we're
(08:48):
almost entirely written by men. It's like male creatures assaulting women, right.
I guess if you think about how Dracula has changed
over time, like he was really big monster, pointy year guy,
and now it's all of a sudden, this beautiful man
like listens, doesn't listen well Corn and Twilight, he listens.
(09:11):
He sparkles. Yeah, that that was That wasn't the scene.
I laughed, but I almost laughed at that. That wasn't
like a laughable scene. I laughed when he like blocked
in and smelled Bella for the first time, and he
made that face, but he covered his nose. I just
didn't know what was going on. I it was funny anyway.
If if we can include fan fiction, which everyone knows.
I'm I'm want to do it's everywhere Harry Potter, which
(09:33):
is my specialty. There are irresistible wear wolves, vampires, vila. Um,
it's more like they can't resist the human character they
are infatuated infatuated with most of the time, which doesn't
really and in the books the centaurs are are seeing
as sexual objects like the women, like the girls are amagly.
I tried it to them. It doesn't show them much
(09:53):
so much. In the movie books they do. Yeah, video
games have some interesting examples where air can choose to
pursue a relationship with a non human. I still don't
get that. Oh I've done it, I know. I mean,
like my friend who plays the video games, he does
it too, and I'm like, why, oh, okay, here we go. Um.
So usually in this case it's an alien, not of
(10:16):
the master variety. But you know, depending on your take
of aliens and gives anyway. Um, I always went for
Garris arel Area, both of whom are alien. When playing
the human female character in Mass Effect, it's like a
foreign language to me, I know, to the Mass Effect players. Um.
There's a game called Coming Out on top, which is
about queer folks exploring their sexuality, where you can opt
(10:38):
for a goldfish as a sexual partner, um as one
of many paths, many many paths. Um, it's really hard
to describe. Why Why why a goldfish? I mean, I
think it's just about options. Um. That's the same as
you know, mass affecting Garris. I liked his voice, and
he seemed even even cue it was all about personnel.
It was about his personality. I got you, I got you.
(11:02):
And then there is monster porn are cryptozoological erotica, which
generally involves a human woman having sexual encounters with some
type of creature, and this is actually largely written by women. Really,
there is perhaps a surprising amount of science looking to
why this is a thing, or perhaps it's not surprising
at all. Um. The current consensus is it has to
(11:23):
do with usually women wanting to explore a wider variety
of erotic experiences on the Internet. Porn side of it, though,
one mystery German dude has produced almost all of the
sea creature porn that exists, so he does all the
tentical porn. I don't think it's tentical porn. I think
it's more like Creature from the Black Lagoon because UM,
(11:45):
When the company that makes the C Creature outfit that
is almost always featured in these porn videos were asked
about it um and and told you know, hey, did
you know that your Sea Creature say all this porno,
they responded, quote, we did not know that our C
Creature costume was being used in pornographic films. We hope
the actors find the costume comfortable, easy to wear, and
(12:06):
that the audience enjoys the artistic beauty of the costume. Wow,
that is the most generic like um company like corporate answer.
That's pretty right. I enjoy it unbiased, like, oh yeah,
it was fantastic. We like and you can appreciate and
appreciate that. Due to calls that it promoted bestiality and brutality,
(12:28):
Amazon and other websites took down some monster porn, including
that big Foot one everyone always uses as an example.
I think probably most of you have seen it or
heard of it in passing. Even if you don't know it,
it's a bad I don't want to look it up.
It's just popular. I read it. I wouldn't be ashamed.
In my head, it's interesting, like I don't understand, like
(12:50):
I didn't know this was an option. YEA, feel very
naive right now. Well I usually feel that way, so
it's good to happen. At first, I wasn't going to
include robots. What a fun sentence that is. But then
I got to thinking about the symbolism and the alien
movies of the Android trying to kill Ripley in the
(13:11):
first one and the newer ones. How David Um, who's
an android like always falls in love for the lead
female character and or wants to kill her despite being
a robot that shouldn't in this in this movie shouldn't
have those feelings Um and all the hubub about how
hot the robot was and lost his face the new
(13:31):
Netflix sauce in his face. Okay, so I think are
related but different. I mean, would that include like Blade Runner.
Aren't they all like some have Android? Yeah? Yeah, I
guess so. I guess. So then they have creation of
life and that becomes problematic because they have created life somehow?
Is that right? I've not watched it fully, but I
know people are really big fans of this and they
(13:54):
love this idea. And the last one had Ryan Gosling,
who was a beautiful beautiful man playing a beautiful beautiful robot.
Right the I was on the Rhine Gossling train way
before me, I was, I was nine years old. Hey,
young Hercules had a big crush. Oh that's right, he
was on What if I told you I liked him
from Mickey mouse Club? Oh no, you're right he could.
(14:17):
Oh no, I don't want to know the truth in
this world. But I mean, I guess that would be
like the objective objectification of robots, right, yeah, I think
there's that could be a hole and I would love
to talk about that as well a different episode, but
just the like they're you but not quite right, Like
there's something I better magorous about it, kind of unpredictable. Yeah.
(14:41):
So those those are a lot of the examples, and
we have a lot more to discuss. But first we're
going to pause for a quick fick for work and
re sponsor and we're back. Thank you, sponsor. We're not
(15:06):
the only ones who are curious about this, or I'm not.
I mean, Samantha's just kind of just learning. This is
a fascinating topic, so let's keep going. Okay. Psychologists think
that it in part has to do with the allure
and thrill of the unknown. There's also an inherent power dynamic,
a submissive dominant layer that some people are attracted to.
On top of that, monsters can often represent repressed sexuality,
(15:29):
especially things that are taboo or perverse and sexual desire.
Monsters can represent raw animal passion and also often exemplify
exaggerated masculine traits. Can be exciting and different, and sometimes
people are attracted to that danger. Kind of like we
were just talking about something else. I found said. Early
examples of this, especially in children's movies like Beauty and
(15:52):
the Beast, were meant as almost moral tales of male
predatory behavior and gender roles in scripts. So men, in
this case, our animal is stick with insatiable desires, and
women either will fall victim to that desire or have
to cater to it. Right. I guess you could say
that about the Red riding Hood, Little Red Riding Hood. Yeah, yeah,
that came up as an example as well. Um Bell's
(16:15):
love and in this case you can read it as
femininity and her sex makes the beast human. It redeems
his animalistic brutish nature, brings that his best qualities. Without it,
he is a monster. But Jia Tolentino wrote in The
New Yorker, the half buried truth about Disney's Beauty and
the Beast is that in the end, the Prince is
a let down. I thought so too, like it's not
(16:38):
as good as the Beast. No, I like, it's not
even that for me. It was for a lot of people,
because you do spend the whole movie with this character
and then it's like a blonde ponytail dude. Right wait, WHOA.
I just remember thinking, no, you like the goofy manner.
I guess I think I was just I'm thinking about
(17:00):
the scene where she's teaching him how to eat correct
and he's like, oh, it was always like a big
bumbling guy who stopped and he was like, well, thank you. Yes.
I think it's just you spend time like it's kind
of odd too. At the end here is this character
and it just feels the jarring kind of um and
if it is like the top search result if you
(17:21):
type in Beauty and the Beast prints, and it's like
it's a let down. So a lot of people think that,
And there's also Stockholm syndrome involved in that. That particular
example can also be interpreted as Bell sacrificing her freedom
and the beast sacrificing what made him different. M And
(17:41):
then um kind of related, Buffy has that and I
love Buffy the dam Parslor, but it has that problematic
thing with Angel and Buffy where the second after they
have sex he becomes a mindless monster and she loses him. Um.
And then there's also the problematic thing of the attempted
rape of by Spike. Don't they get together in the end?
(18:02):
They get together at some points over I can't. I
just remember that being a thing together. Wow, So he
tried to rape her, but then they got together. Yeah,
so many things. And then then this is a whole
cautionary tell if you have sex, it's going to be
really bad. The guy who you like will be an ass. Yes,
(18:26):
that was going I got you, I got you. Yeah.
And then there's a book. I think it's written by
Ryl Stein. Um. It was definitely one of those teen
thriller slash horror riders that I love. Wrote an adult book,
adult novel which included this like monster character that I
think came from incests somehow, and he's he's a horrible man,
(18:50):
horrible thing with no mind and the mother is trying
to control him or whatever, and then he goes out
and eats people. But one of the scenes he's raping
a woman that he's essentially eating at the same time
time on a carnival ride. I believe it was really
like what is going on? And of course the woman
who was eaten was the slut of the characters, so
(19:10):
that was like that was like four college friends and
the virginal not a word, where the virginal one was
like protected somehow, but the slut character was the one
that ended up being eaten and raped, as if she
deserved it, and she she tried to I think, entice him.
It has a way to try to get away from him,
(19:31):
as if like giving what he wanted, what the monster wanted,
she could maybe live, but she of course doesn't. I
just remember that being like, oh my god, what is happening.
So it kind of took all the tropes of the
cliches of monsters and films and all of that, and
women within monsters and books. It's kind of like, what
what the hell just happened? It was really weird. Yeah,
(19:52):
that that sounds a lot like have you ever seen
Cavin in the Woods. Yes, it sounds like that, but
Cavin in the Woods is a parody. Um also went
Samantha brought this up in the studio that there was
an Arl Steinn I don't book me, and super producer
Andrew got so invited. I started explaining what it was,
but you're like, oh no, that sounds terrible. I need
(20:12):
to go back and make sure. Either it was Arl
Stain or maybe Christopher Pike, but it was definitely one
of those. And the reason I read it was because
I love them both so much growing up. You know,
it doesn't love the Fear Street or Chronicles It's fantastic
or all of the goodn't like Goosebumps as much. I
like the Fear Street. I like the Witches. I like
the one with the two girls who go hitchhiking and
(20:32):
one of the girls as the martyr. But you think
it's the guy that they picked up the time that
he knew had to do a good plot. Twist, twist twist.
Some studies have shown that despite finding the possibility or
reality of real life rape horrifying and traumatic, up to
six of women admit to fantasizing about having sex. I
(20:53):
guess there will, particularly with monsters and we sort of
touched on this. It depends on wishing schedules. Um, but
I think it's super complicated, and I, along with the
steady authors, want to emphatically drive home this is not
me that women want to be raped in real life. No, no, no, no,
(21:13):
not coerced, not forced. I think of the sort um
like some men disgustingly and excitedly claimed when these survey
results came out, it's um, there's a lot of reasons
behind it. But like we were saying, they are too consenting.
Adults can agree to like the plays or scenes as
we all learn the terms for yes as in fact
(21:35):
in what you do in the privacy of your own
home with your partner or whomever you're with that day,
and you have an established actual play things consent consenting
thing that you want, whatever it is, and that's fine.
But once again, there's still consent and play, whether it's
like there's a time frame at whatever scenario you've got
for yourself. Um. And I have a lot of my
(21:59):
own theories on why this is, and I think, like
most things, there's a lot going on and everybody is different.
But um, science people who studied this and conducted the
survey think it has to do UM with with both
people who generally take charge in things and find it
(22:22):
a relief to not take charge of something, to like
relinquish control or responsibility. Um. And then there is also
women feeling like she can't say yes to something she wants,
are simultaneously fearing and desiring sex um, are wanting her
beauty and desirable desirability which is our currency in this society,
(22:45):
confirmed as irresistible. And these are like fantasies again like
just to drive the home its fantasies um. Some psychologists
think has to do with the woman fearing emasculating the
man and promoting violence and to finishing her desirability if
refusing sex. And yes, all of this is very hetero
(23:06):
research um. And a couple of things to add here
is the women who reported having these fantasies also reported
higher levels of consensual fantasies and higher levels of openness
and positivity when it comes to sex as opposed to
the women who didn't. Because of that's some psychologists think
this fantasy might be an underlying desire to explore more
sexual scenarios like bondage or some other kink again again
(23:29):
again do not do this as women secretly want for sex,
because that is not a thing. It is not ever
ever a thing, not a thing. You will know from
the mouth of the woman if she wants to have sex, yes, yes, um.
And because we are going to discuss bondage and um fetishes, yes,
(23:53):
mouth of partner consent on all parties, on every party.
And again, fantasy different, fantasy, yes, And the likelihood of
someone acting out their fantasies are going to be still
in the conversation, right and communication mm hmm. Yeah, So
(24:13):
just keep that in mind. Uh, And we will be returning,
returning through that a little bit in upcoming episodes. Scientists
and psychologists take issue with the term rape fantasy to
saying it should be more accurately described as consensual ravishment
or agreed to aggression. And again, I think this is
a lot to do with our own, um past socidal
(24:34):
ideas of being manly or masculine. And again, this is
very heteronormative. But if you look at things like The
fountain Head, there's a pretty intense scene of this guy
coming after her, who is the main protagonist and the
hero of the book, with this girl who is snobby
and rich, that gets taken by him, and the same
(24:56):
idea with gone with a win when he picks her
up and ravishes hardest to and he feels regret the
next day. That is not the same thing, and for
some reason it is romanticized. Is so therefore the idea
of having a rep butler in your life sweeping your
way as opposed to, hey, this is any other the
guy I tried to touch me on punch him in
the throat and thick. I guess I can't say that,
(25:18):
I think so Okay, well I just did, But I
mean that's the difference is like this is a whole picture,
and again breaking down what is norm and what is
not norm, and then breaking down what is acceptable and
not acceptable. Yeah, um, and I know I was reading
some other studies about how um, there's a fear of
(25:40):
communicating like what you want if it's not quote unquote
normal when it comes to sex, if it is kind
of a fantasy or something that might be a little
um more scay. So it is hard to get good
numbers around it because you know, people are a little
it can be a little shy. Well it also so
there's still that shame factor that happens as we talk
(26:02):
about many many times, and whether or not we can
say what we want, because will you look on me
with shame? What do I have guilt about these feelings? Whatever?
What not? Um, there's a huge cloud over everyone, UM
with whatever they think is not normal based on their
experiences or their environment or their social ideas. UM. And
so therefore they would rather just sit in silence that
(26:25):
actually communicate and be open. Yeah. Yeah, but I think
things that are changing slowly. Yes, there are a lot
of dudes and some women who like to argue that
the attraction of monsters thing demonstrates that toxic masculinity doesn't
exist and that it's what women really want. And also
no also known like what, yeah, I just saw that
(26:49):
in a lot of places, and I was like, okay,
well no, but I want to address it. Side issue
female sea creatures giving up power and family to be
with human men, because I've seen that and a couple
of things all upon you are the Little Mermaid. The
related side issue the quote monster hotness gap. I did
not coin that or the fact that generally speaking, female
(27:11):
monsters have to be hot and overly sexualized, but this
isn't as often the case with women and male monsters.
Just think of Monster Halloween costumes from men versus women. Yeah,
like I mean you and I were talking. Also the
fact that when we look at the movie with Megan Fox, Oh,
(27:31):
Jennifer's body, Yeah, Jennifer's body. She's a monster, but she's
this hot ass monster that comes around and you know,
seduce his boys. Um. And many of the times you
see these monsters being really beautiful females and then transforming
into this ugly thing later on in time monster within
(27:51):
right right, um as where the monsters of men are
just out there. And I mean, have you ever heard
of the reverse Beauty and the Beast? Beauty and the hunk?
Hunk in the beast, not beauty of the beast. So
I hunk and the beast, and it shouldn't beauty on
the hawk. That's just like that's the reality show happening
(28:15):
on the beach, right Yeah. Yeah, Um, I just dated
myself by using the term hunk, didn't I I don't know.
I think hunk still has other thing I think so. Um,
there's also a female monsters sympathy gap. We're more likely
as audiences to sympathize with male monsters than we are
with female monsters. I wonder why that could be. Also,
(28:39):
female monsters are almost always single, and I almost went
into a huge tangent about it, but then I was like,
you gotta range almost always go after their best friends guys.
I've noticed that a lot, like they go after something
that is right, you know, supposed to be priority for females,
being caddy as it were. Um, some of the things
we're talking about here can and sometimes do fall under
the umbrella of fetish or chinks, but not always. I
(29:03):
do want to mention that a shape of Water themed
dildo on Etsy keeps selling out and after it's Oscar
when it's sold out In twenty deepness, I'm not gonna lie.
I've never seen that movie just because I couldn't understand
the premise, and I get it. I get it. By
the same time, I was like, no, there's a really
(29:23):
interesting take on that movie about how it's supposed to
be you know, romantic. But at the same time, the
director Skim Adults were right. He kind of has publicly
looked down on people fetishizing. Um, the monster are not
even fetishizing, but just kind of romanticizing. But at the
(29:46):
same time, it's like this is what the movie is.
It's it's weird. I saw that came up a lot
when I was researching this, but it wasn't exactly what
we're talking about, so I didn't include a lot of it. Um.
I've all thought this whole thing had something to do
with how women and society at large are taught to
fear female sexual desire and pleasure, going back to like
(30:08):
the taboo thing, so a lot of us have difficulty
expressing it and also suffer from low self esteem. Enter
a sexy, powerful vampire who literally cannot resist you, who
is so in love heavy quotes with you, he watches
you sleep at night, creepy, and wants to hear your
every thought. Super creepy. But I found some pieces that
argued it might have to deal with marginalized people empathizing
(30:29):
with creatures on the outside of society. There's some criticism
in that vein to that rather than depict sex outside
of our sis heteronorms, pop culture ops for monsters instead. Yeah.
I found that interesting. And related to this are more
modern take on more respectful, consensual monsters with women. Pairings
(30:49):
and attraction to them is sometimes credited to our desire
to see stories that allow women more sexual agency, that
depict more queerly relationships and or depict more non whitely
eating relationships, and Hollywood's resistance to that because these are
still straight white ladies falling from monsters as opposed to
doing that. But like we're craving something else so much
(31:11):
then what we've seen that I guess for monsters or
the way we're going with it, Okay, something else. I
read claim that vampires and werewolves, often especially in older works,
were layered with homosexual overtones and thus a fear of
spreading homosexuality. Yes, yes, um. And I also want to
(31:32):
add that I think writing fan fiction that involves sex
with the monster that isn't consensual is often a way
of working through complicated feelings around sex or past sexual experiences.
Is easier to think of someone as a straight up
monster than a human person who victimized you. That's just
my theory about some of it, not all of it
at all, but some of it. And another theory I
(31:52):
have because I have thought of episode, is that all
of us might have to do with male writers happening
with the societal scripts that tell them that they can't
control their desires and women will love them no matter
their monstrous attitude anyway, Are that that the love of
a woman will make them better the love of a
(32:13):
pure woman, Yes, I will make them pure as well, exactly.
So there's a lot going on here, um, but we're
not done. But first we have one more quick break
for a word from our sponsor. I hope this vamparsa
(32:38):
and we're back. Thank you sponsor, And we are back
with vampires, Samantha. Because I didn't want to look at
them specifically for a second, and I was. I asked
you before we did this if you had any kind
of monster attraction things going on, and you said the
one thing that I've always really really liked our vampire stories,
and I've loved them from the beginning. And this is
(32:58):
why I also say I did know about Twilight. I
also loved um Interview with a Vampire that was one
of my favorites. I even watched the one with Jim Carrey,
the really really old school one. What is it like
a comedy? Uh, good, gosh, it's so old. Yes, he
he transforms into a new vampire and it was um
(33:24):
on rotten tomatoes, but it was a film, and yeah,
he gets bitten I can't remember the quite premise. He
gets bitten and he's slowly transforming, and it's obviously it's
a bit of a comedy. Um. But yeah, I even
watched that one because I really liked it. I liked
the idea, Yeah, there's something to me when you see
(33:45):
this kind of like darkness and defining death. I think
was part of my fascination. Also, Brad Pitt was beautiful.
I will say this thing between him and Kirsten does
was really really creepy and almost did not make me happy.
He definitely didn't make me happy. It is very sexualized.
Of all, I feel like all of the monster movies,
or like that type of non human movies, vampires are
(34:08):
the most sexualized than anything else. I would agree. I
would agree with that, and that's why we have this
whole section specifically, Um, what does that say about me? Then?
Damn no, no, no, you were definitely not alone. Um.
So I found a lot of theories about why we
(34:30):
have a fascination with vampires, and one of the and
while they're so sexualized, I'm one of the first things
that I ran into That was really obvious when I
read it, But I was still sort of surprised is
that it's a replacement for sex, because you're like exchanging bodily,
but you're not having sex again. It's someone who maybe
(34:51):
can't resist you, who might bite you at any time,
can offer you eternal life, eternal youth. Um unchanging in city.
I thought that was such a funny argument, but a guess,
I guess that makes sense. Like if you're you want
somebody steady at commitment in your life, then someone who
commit to you right right there you go, right a
(35:12):
safe sex symbol. I found that argument. Um the bad
boy and the allure of reforming him right or the
tortured sensitive soul. I do love a really sad boy.
I do too, and I don't. I have a lot
of friends that make fun of me for that. But
oh my goodness, I did. I like the tortured artist guy.
That was my thing. That was another episode to come
(35:35):
back to the fact that they're mesmerizing um the fantasy
of not having to be responsible, and almost always played
by conventionally attractive actors. Although the original Dracula, sure this
is our newer Sarato was not a pretty boy. No, no,
(35:56):
have you seen um? As we lie in the shadows
what we do in the show. I love I love
the show. I haven't watched the show, but I know
the movie in itself. It kind of goes back to
the old school idea of like, yeah, it's not sexy
as you think, and I love their takes on that. Yes,
I love it. Any listeners who are interested. Highly recommended
(36:18):
good movie. Um. Twilight is often seen as a metaphor
for abstinence absolutely before marriage. Edward can hardly resist Billa's
sent but he must or she will be condemned to
be a monster to putting the responsibility on the woman
from the man's desires and actions. Another example of that um,
but also complicated by the fact that she does love
(36:39):
him right um. And also complicated by the fact that
I suppose the messages there is premarrital sex as monstrous yeah, um,
and I think you're going to talk about it, but
actually he refuses to sleep with her because she wants
to be with him so badly. And I don't think
ever they've ever mentioned sex in the book or in
the movie, because well, now, I'm sorry beforehand that they
(36:59):
don't talk about it. Um. But she says something along
the time learned like because the whole bag. Oh my god,
I can't believe I know so much. The whole back
and forth is that she wants to be with him forever,
and she doesn't want to grow old and die he
lives or whatever, and he doesn't want her to be
a monster as he is quote unquote um. But she
also wants to sleep with him, and she wants to
(37:21):
sleep with him while she's still human because she doesn't
know that things will change when she's not anymore. And
the only way he will do that is if they
get married. So he is the one that puts it
on her. So she gets married at eighteen eighteen, and
for some reason that it's acceptable even this day and age,
and everybody's like super excited and no one's really creeped
out by the fight. Hey, that's really weird. But this
(37:43):
is also that religious dance, which is the writer was
very religious. Is very I don't know, and that was
part of her thing is the pale the sexual attraction.
But he was such a good guy, and it's such
a good man that he makes sure that they're married first,
and that's how her reputation it's not hard. Yeah, we
(38:04):
don't want that because you know at eight when you
get married in two thousand and five, it's completely normal. Um.
And I did read that part of the appeal of
Edward is that his love for Bella propels him to
combat his monstrous urges. Interesting. Um, and I've said it before.
We've talked about in other episodes around stalking is not romantic,
(38:27):
but through romance between Bella and Edward displays many signs
that are precursors to abuse, if not outright abuse and
stalking and controlling behavior. Pop culture has for so long
painted that as romance, and it can be hard to
unlearn what we have taught. Like Twilight is by no
means the only offender here. This is everywhere. Right, Oh no,
(38:50):
it still is every day. Once again, we talked about
fifty Gray, fifty Shades of Gray, and that just happened
the news word just released a few years ago. Right, yeah,
I mean it's everywhere. Um, but I did want to
put that in there. We are a where that watching
someone sleep against that will perhaps super creepy. Um. One
(39:10):
article claimed that the popularity of Twilight and other modern
vampires um is almost entirely straight women being attracted to
gay um okay, and women being attracted to something dangerous
yet safe, like they're powerful, but they also have a
lot of self control, like they can protect you. I
(39:30):
don't know, that's the whole, like being saved, yeah, and
being pure and walking into something dangerous once again, because
both Bella and even in Trubla, that's the same idea,
and in the old school bram Strokers Jacula with Gary
Oldman in one no Writer, Um, it's the same thing,
Jesus pure woman that comes through as an idea of
(39:52):
saving an individual. I say True Blood did a better
job of at least I guess, because they had like
what it's like, seven seasons long of exploring her sexuality
a little more and her being a little more demanding.
She dreams that she has a threesome with them. Oh yeah,
it was very stuck. But two of the vampires though,
(40:13):
Oh okay, I I don't remember that show very well.
I only watched like first two seasons and with my friends,
And again I really liked that show. But I did
like Godrick. I remember Goddrick very vaguely, and I liked him.
Alex Carscar I don't know who he was. He was
the one, oh yeah, the old human character and he
(40:37):
was one of the first vampires. Yes, I think it
really is a desire to see something different than what
we have seen UM. I also wanted to include in
here briefly that when I was researching this UM, some
examples included things for monsters that I found troubling. And
I think there is a layer of um able is
(40:57):
um and misunderstanding of mental illness that is at play,
and a lot of this UM. I just wanted to
mention that I came across some examples that I was like, UMM,
the whole this whole idea is so UM. The meaning
to women in general, UM and those who identifize them
(41:18):
all or just anybody who UM. I mean, there's nothing
wrong in delving into an imagining world, imaginary world where
you want more or you want something that is purely
your fantasy. You can think what you want. Again, I
still like vampires. I still think it's fantastic. I still
like the idea UM of that kind of fantasy realm.
(41:41):
But A I don't want to be stalked. B I
don't want anyone to draw blood from me. So yeah,
you know what I mean. But like, there is that
fine line of where do we push this idea where
women become these objects of whether it's they have to
be the representation of purity um and they should be
(42:03):
always pure and gentle and kind and and giving and
change people, which is my like my own personal struggle
in trying to be like I gotta help and fix people.
That's not the true thing, but these films oftentimes portray
that as this is the best way to be a woman,
you know what I mean, m or this is the
best way to be a good partner, and you start
(42:25):
looking at things like fifty Shades of Gray and understand.
I think what I do like about all these things
is it does portray that women are sexual and do
desire to have to be a part of that fantasy
life and to do some more exploration and that these
conversations should happen. But they do definitely like put women
in a box, and you have to be careful on
(42:46):
both of those levels. Yeah. And also, I mean with
most media that we enjoyed, I don't know about most,
but a lot of media is um an exaggeration of life, right,
Like that's why we're going is because it takes something
that maybe we feel and exaggerates it. Like Superhero movies
(43:06):
are a great example. They're still human character. I mean,
when it's done all they're human characters you can relate to,
and they're dealing with things we can relate to, put
on a bigger scale, like on a on a more
exciting imaginative scale. Right, So I think that is at
play here as well, because I mean it's just different
than a rom column. It's a little a little more dangerous.
(43:30):
You want something a little dangerous? Yeah, Um, so we're
about gonna wrap this up. Um, we didn't really get
into you except for you briefly, Samantha. Human monsters are
like dexter because I think that that is a different thing,
that is is a whole different level of like serial killers. Yeah,
(43:54):
and we kind of briefly touched on that with the
recent like the Ted Bundy documentary and the You on Netflix.
That is a different thing. Um, happy to talk about
it at a future date. But basically, human sexuality is
complicated and is influenced and shaped by a plesora of
thing when it comes out in many different forms, in
(44:14):
many different ways it does. Indeed, And um, we would
love to hear from listeners about your favorite monster movies.
If you've written any stories are fan fiction, UM would
love to read it. You can email us at Stuff Media,
mom Stuff at iHeart media dot com. You can also
find us on Twitter at mom Stuff Podcasts and on
Instagram at stuff I've Never Told You. Thanks as always
(44:37):
to our superproducer Andrew Howard, Mr Howard, and thanks to
you for listening Stuff I Never Told These production of
I Heart Radios. How Stuff works For more podcasts from
I Heart Radio, is it the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast,
or wherever you listen to your favorite show,
Hey, this is Annie and I'm Samantha, and welcome to stuff.
And I've never told your protection of I heart radios
how staff works. Okay, all right, here we go today.
We are finally tackling a topic I have wanted to
(00:25):
talk about for a long time. I believe in the
first ever episode that I was on that wasn't kind
of an intro episode, I mentioned that I wanted to
talk about this, right, I think you told me that
pretty quickly as one of your ideas when we were
discussing the future of Sementy. And I'm like, I don't
know if I can contribute to this, but I will
beat there to listen. Perfect. Yeah, yes, and I've wanted
(00:45):
to talk about this, like just not even on podcast,
but just a woman about town, a woman of South Town.
Even I'm a woman about town since Twilight was at
its cheek because I I was just so kind of
befuddled and intrigued about what was happening. So did you
(01:08):
watch any of the Twilight? I watched the first one,
And I'm not here to make fun of what anyone enjoys. Um,
I just wasn't right. I went in blind and I
laughed at a part I'm not sure I was supposed
to laugh at the whole first movie was kind of laughing.
It was the first movie, and this young girl behind
me threatened to cut me in an alleyway, and I
(01:30):
was like, I want to talk about this one day.
I'll have a podcast of my own and I can
I can delve into. So I was in the middle
of the Twilight frenzy as well, and I was much
older than the majority of the Twilight people who Twilight fans.
I think the fandom um, and I will say it
was really enjoyable, and I did like it because it
was an easy read and it was really like mind
(01:52):
numbing in the sense of like you don't have to
think too hard into it. And as any other thing
we talked about fan growling, Yeah, which is sex. This
is in a comment, but essentially um, the idea that
you get really obsessive with the character and or an idea,
and this is kind of that world of that fantasy world,
which also translated into Fifts of Gray. Yes, Twilight, right,
(02:15):
but it brought that same kind of satuation, brought that
for older women and older generations. That would have been
the way for Twilight. I think, yeah, and I That's
why I don't want to be judgmental of that, because
I think because I don't like romance, that's why I
didn't like Twilight. But if I fan girl about so
(02:36):
much stuff, right was believe me, Harry Potter, I went
and it's still still right. And I think for me,
I'm not necessarily all about romance, but as a person
who wished to have romance or wish for the perfect
idea of romance. Um, but I'm cynical in real life
oddly enough, and I'm like, yeah, this would be awesome. Yeah,
(02:58):
I'll take your word for it. I'm just saying we
will be returning to Twilight. I love how we always
bury the lead of what the episode is about. So
we're talking about no, no, no, no no, I love it.
We're talking about women and monsters and kind of this
this trope and this attraction of it seems and a
lot of our media women and monsters, right, vampires being
(03:19):
one of those. And before we get into it, trigger
warnings were, I mean, this is just gonna kind of
come up. We're not going to delve into it, but art, yeah, esque,
there is one thing that I will maybe say it's
not but it's it's generally we're just kind of mentioning
these things rape, sexual assault and general warning about porn
(03:40):
and fetishes, and um, we do want to be careful
to not judge any consensual, safe, healthy things that people
are into, right and again, and we'll be talking more
and more about this with like the b D s
M and bondage. But everything has to do with constant
and communication in being an adult who can consent legally. Yes, um,
(04:05):
so let's get into it. I'm so excited. Even if
there's no sexual attraction, it's hard to deny after looking
at our pop culture that we don't find monsters, especially
the more human esque humanoid ones appealing. People writing about
the popularity of monsters point to their relatability. They're different
(04:27):
than us humans here, but we can see ourselves in them,
and a lot of us can connect with that feeling
of being outcasts. Right, you want to be the underdog
that comes out on top. Yes, Yes, we love an underdog.
And like I've said many times, I think horror movies
are great mirrors to reflect back what we as a
society have hang ups around um, and something similar can
(04:49):
be said around monsters. They embody both fear and desirability
and fear around desirability, And really, doesn't that sound like
we're describing at a shoots around sex. Yeah, I mean,
I will say for me, and it's not exactly a
monster monster, but like dexter. Uh. His character was intriguing
to me because it had a bit of my biggest
(05:10):
fear of who I could be. Really right, yeah, getting up?
Are you a little nervous? Now? Are you a little nervous?
Because he reflects a lot about trauma and childhood. But
at the same time, he kinda is that guy that
as the monster you want to make better somehow. Yeah. Yeah,
(05:30):
it's a really interesting dichotomy. I was trying to explain
to a friend after perhaps one too many tea glasses
wine at five am. Um, yes this is after we karaoke.
I'll see, this is why I can't hang with you
past like money. We had to wait for our pizza
to and I was just explaining to her she does
(05:53):
this thing where she becomes contrary when she's drunk um,
and she was picking a fight with me, but she
was like, I don't understand why you like the Winter
Soldiers so much because his hair parts so weird. And
I'm like, it has nothing to do with looks. It's
all about the trauma he represents, right, and that's very true. Anyway,
we're getting away from the point. I'm so sorry. No, no,
there's so many examples of this in so many Beauty
(06:16):
and the Beast, Dracula, Twilight, Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Vampire Diaries,
True Blood. Although there's a lot of attraction going on
in True Blood, they have all the monsters. In True
Blood you have from like Werewolves two which is to
vampires too. Ferries. Yeah, I guess that's not really a
monster is actually they turned out to be monsters and
(06:39):
True Blood Oh dear, I mean that makes sense. I included.
I just wanted to include that because they think in
True Blood it's just generally a lot of attraction and desirability,
but there are a lot of monsters and they're all
the whole like idea of saving that one, Like, what
is that innocent character? Yeah, she's kind of the innocent
(07:01):
virgin that they're trying to take care of. All of
them are fighting over her, one pure, very white, very
blonde girl with all the monsters around her, and how
she attracts those people that's part of our sexuality as well.
For me, it is absolutely a part of this, oh
for sure. Um. Shape of Water is a big recent
one Venom, which apparently caused a lot of excitement for
(07:22):
some folks. I can't remember it's called. There's a name
for it, but because I was gonna say, Tom Hardy, right, yeah,
end the story. I've never seen this movie, but double Hardys. Oh,
I've seen it an embarrassing amount of times because of
my parody that I'm making that right, Yes, it's all
for that. Oh well you will be so good. Um.
(07:44):
And it's slightly different for this example of venom because
this was the audience being attracted to the monster as
opposed to like in the movie. I think it's an
interpretation from the audience. But I want to concluded Tom Hardy. Yeah,
but there's even that. It was big enough that the
company that produced this, which I believe is Sony, Um,
(08:05):
they released a trailer after the movie came out that
painted it as a rom com. It was that big
of a kid. No, and it's great, It's it's great.
I guess I need to watch it. I have not
seen anything. I mean, yes, but it's not good. But
you know. Apologies to anyone who likes me out there.
I mean, but I mean, I mean, do you do
(08:27):
what you want to do. I'm just a kind of
warn you. It's fun, but perhaps not okay. Older movies
were likely to include a less human looking creature lusting
after a human woman, like King Kong. I think there
is something different about these old school monster movies too,
because they were less about female desire and how we
view it and more about the male gaze. And we're
(08:48):
almost entirely written by men. It's like male creatures assaulting women, right.
I guess if you think about how Dracula has changed
over time, like he was really big monster, pointy year guy,
and now it's all of a sudden, this beautiful man
like listens, doesn't listen well Corn and Twilight, he listens.
(09:11):
He sparkles. Yeah, that that was That wasn't the scene.
I laughed, but I almost laughed at that. That wasn't
like a laughable scene. I laughed when he like blocked
in and smelled Bella for the first time, and he
made that face, but he covered his nose. I just
didn't know what was going on. I it was funny anyway.
If if we can include fan fiction, which everyone knows.
I'm I'm want to do it's everywhere Harry Potter, which
(09:33):
is my specialty. There are irresistible wear wolves, vampires, vila. Um,
it's more like they can't resist the human character they
are infatuated infatuated with most of the time, which doesn't
really and in the books the centaurs are are seeing
as sexual objects like the women, like the girls are amagly.
I tried it to them. It doesn't show them much
(09:53):
so much. In the movie books they do. Yeah, video
games have some interesting examples where air can choose to
pursue a relationship with a non human. I still don't
get that. Oh I've done it, I know. I mean,
like my friend who plays the video games, he does
it too, and I'm like, why, oh, okay, here we go. Um.
So usually in this case it's an alien, not of
(10:16):
the master variety. But you know, depending on your take
of aliens and gives anyway. Um, I always went for
Garris arel Area, both of whom are alien. When playing
the human female character in Mass Effect, it's like a
foreign language to me, I know, to the Mass Effect players. Um.
There's a game called Coming Out on top, which is
about queer folks exploring their sexuality, where you can opt
(10:38):
for a goldfish as a sexual partner, um as one
of many paths, many many paths. Um, it's really hard
to describe. Why Why why a goldfish? I mean, I
think it's just about options. Um. That's the same as
you know, mass affecting Garris. I liked his voice, and
he seemed even even cue it was all about personnel.
It was about his personality. I got you, I got you.
(11:02):
And then there is monster porn are cryptozoological erotica, which
generally involves a human woman having sexual encounters with some
type of creature, and this is actually largely written by women. Really,
there is perhaps a surprising amount of science looking to
why this is a thing, or perhaps it's not surprising
at all. Um. The current consensus is it has to
(11:23):
do with usually women wanting to explore a wider variety
of erotic experiences on the Internet. Porn side of it, though,
one mystery German dude has produced almost all of the
sea creature porn that exists, so he does all the
tentical porn. I don't think it's tentical porn. I think
it's more like Creature from the Black Lagoon because UM,
(11:45):
When the company that makes the C Creature outfit that
is almost always featured in these porn videos were asked
about it um and and told you know, hey, did
you know that your Sea Creature say all this porno,
they responded, quote, we did not know that our C
Creature costume was being used in pornographic films. We hope
the actors find the costume comfortable, easy to wear, and
(12:06):
that the audience enjoys the artistic beauty of the costume. Wow,
that is the most generic like um company like corporate answer.
That's pretty right. I enjoy it unbiased, like, oh yeah,
it was fantastic. We like and you can appreciate and
appreciate that. Due to calls that it promoted bestiality and brutality,
(12:28):
Amazon and other websites took down some monster porn, including
that big Foot one everyone always uses as an example.
I think probably most of you have seen it or
heard of it in passing. Even if you don't know it,
it's a bad I don't want to look it up.
It's just popular. I read it. I wouldn't be ashamed.
In my head, it's interesting, like I don't understand, like
(12:50):
I didn't know this was an option. YEA, feel very
naive right now. Well I usually feel that way, so
it's good to happen. At first, I wasn't going to
include robots. What a fun sentence that is. But then
I got to thinking about the symbolism and the alien
movies of the Android trying to kill Ripley in the
(13:11):
first one and the newer ones. How David Um, who's
an android like always falls in love for the lead
female character and or wants to kill her despite being
a robot that shouldn't in this in this movie shouldn't
have those feelings Um and all the hubub about how
hot the robot was and lost his face the new
(13:31):
Netflix sauce in his face. Okay, so I think are
related but different. I mean, would that include like Blade Runner.
Aren't they all like some have Android? Yeah? Yeah, I
guess so. I guess. So then they have creation of
life and that becomes problematic because they have created life somehow?
Is that right? I've not watched it fully, but I
know people are really big fans of this and they
(13:54):
love this idea. And the last one had Ryan Gosling,
who was a beautiful beautiful man playing a beautiful beautiful robot.
Right the I was on the Rhine Gossling train way
before me, I was, I was nine years old. Hey,
young Hercules had a big crush. Oh that's right, he
was on What if I told you I liked him
from Mickey mouse Club? Oh no, you're right he could.
(14:17):
Oh no, I don't want to know the truth in
this world. But I mean, I guess that would be
like the objective objectification of robots, right, yeah, I think
there's that could be a hole and I would love
to talk about that as well a different episode, but
just the like they're you but not quite right, Like
there's something I better magorous about it, kind of unpredictable. Yeah.
(14:41):
So those those are a lot of the examples, and
we have a lot more to discuss. But first we're
going to pause for a quick fick for work and
re sponsor and we're back. Thank you, sponsor. We're not
(15:06):
the only ones who are curious about this, or I'm not.
I mean, Samantha's just kind of just learning. This is
a fascinating topic, so let's keep going. Okay. Psychologists think
that it in part has to do with the allure
and thrill of the unknown. There's also an inherent power dynamic,
a submissive dominant layer that some people are attracted to.
On top of that, monsters can often represent repressed sexuality,
(15:29):
especially things that are taboo or perverse and sexual desire.
Monsters can represent raw animal passion and also often exemplify
exaggerated masculine traits. Can be exciting and different, and sometimes
people are attracted to that danger. Kind of like we
were just talking about something else. I found said. Early
examples of this, especially in children's movies like Beauty and
(15:52):
the Beast, were meant as almost moral tales of male
predatory behavior and gender roles in scripts. So men, in
this case, our animal is stick with insatiable desires, and
women either will fall victim to that desire or have
to cater to it. Right. I guess you could say
that about the Red riding Hood, Little Red Riding Hood. Yeah, yeah,
that came up as an example as well. Um Bell's
(16:15):
love and in this case you can read it as
femininity and her sex makes the beast human. It redeems
his animalistic brutish nature, brings that his best qualities. Without it,
he is a monster. But Jia Tolentino wrote in The
New Yorker, the half buried truth about Disney's Beauty and
the Beast is that in the end, the Prince is
a let down. I thought so too, like it's not
(16:38):
as good as the Beast. No, I like, it's not
even that for me. It was for a lot of people,
because you do spend the whole movie with this character
and then it's like a blonde ponytail dude. Right wait, WHOA.
I just remember thinking, no, you like the goofy manner.
I guess I think I was just I'm thinking about
(17:00):
the scene where she's teaching him how to eat correct
and he's like, oh, it was always like a big
bumbling guy who stopped and he was like, well, thank you. Yes.
I think it's just you spend time like it's kind
of odd too. At the end here is this character
and it just feels the jarring kind of um and
if it is like the top search result if you
(17:21):
type in Beauty and the Beast prints, and it's like
it's a let down. So a lot of people think that,
And there's also Stockholm syndrome involved in that. That particular
example can also be interpreted as Bell sacrificing her freedom
and the beast sacrificing what made him different. M And
(17:41):
then um kind of related, Buffy has that and I
love Buffy the dam Parslor, but it has that problematic
thing with Angel and Buffy where the second after they
have sex he becomes a mindless monster and she loses him. Um.
And then there's also the problematic thing of the attempted
rape of by Spike. Don't they get together in the end?
(18:02):
They get together at some points over I can't. I
just remember that being a thing together. Wow, So he
tried to rape her, but then they got together. Yeah,
so many things. And then then this is a whole
cautionary tell if you have sex, it's going to be
really bad. The guy who you like will be an ass. Yes,
(18:26):
that was going I got you, I got you. Yeah.
And then there's a book. I think it's written by
Ryl Stein. Um. It was definitely one of those teen
thriller slash horror riders that I love. Wrote an adult book,
adult novel which included this like monster character that I
think came from incests somehow, and he's he's a horrible man,
(18:50):
horrible thing with no mind and the mother is trying
to control him or whatever, and then he goes out
and eats people. But one of the scenes he's raping
a woman that he's essentially eating at the same time
time on a carnival ride. I believe it was really
like what is going on? And of course the woman
who was eaten was the slut of the characters, so
(19:10):
that was like that was like four college friends and
the virginal not a word, where the virginal one was
like protected somehow, but the slut character was the one
that ended up being eaten and raped, as if she
deserved it, and she she tried to I think, entice him.
It has a way to try to get away from him,
(19:31):
as if like giving what he wanted, what the monster wanted,
she could maybe live, but she of course doesn't. I
just remember that being like, oh my god, what is happening.
So it kind of took all the tropes of the
cliches of monsters and films and all of that, and
women within monsters and books. It's kind of like, what
what the hell just happened? It was really weird. Yeah,
(19:52):
that that sounds a lot like have you ever seen
Cavin in the Woods. Yes, it sounds like that, but
Cavin in the Woods is a parody. Um also went
Samantha brought this up in the studio that there was
an Arl Steinn I don't book me, and super producer
Andrew got so invited. I started explaining what it was,
but you're like, oh no, that sounds terrible. I need
(20:12):
to go back and make sure. Either it was Arl
Stain or maybe Christopher Pike, but it was definitely one
of those. And the reason I read it was because
I love them both so much growing up. You know,
it doesn't love the Fear Street or Chronicles It's fantastic
or all of the goodn't like Goosebumps as much. I
like the Fear Street. I like the Witches. I like
the one with the two girls who go hitchhiking and
(20:32):
one of the girls as the martyr. But you think
it's the guy that they picked up the time that
he knew had to do a good plot. Twist, twist twist.
Some studies have shown that despite finding the possibility or
reality of real life rape horrifying and traumatic, up to
six of women admit to fantasizing about having sex. I
(20:53):
guess there will, particularly with monsters and we sort of
touched on this. It depends on wishing schedules. Um, but
I think it's super complicated, and I, along with the
steady authors, want to emphatically drive home this is not
me that women want to be raped in real life. No, no, no, no,
(21:13):
not coerced, not forced. I think of the sort um
like some men disgustingly and excitedly claimed when these survey
results came out, it's um, there's a lot of reasons
behind it. But like we were saying, they are too consenting.
Adults can agree to like the plays or scenes as
we all learn the terms for yes as in fact
(21:35):
in what you do in the privacy of your own
home with your partner or whomever you're with that day,
and you have an established actual play things consent consenting
thing that you want, whatever it is, and that's fine.
But once again, there's still consent and play, whether it's
like there's a time frame at whatever scenario you've got
for yourself. Um. And I have a lot of my
(21:59):
own theories on why this is, and I think, like
most things, there's a lot going on and everybody is different.
But um, science people who studied this and conducted the
survey think it has to do UM with with both
people who generally take charge in things and find it
(22:22):
a relief to not take charge of something, to like
relinquish control or responsibility. Um. And then there is also
women feeling like she can't say yes to something she wants,
are simultaneously fearing and desiring sex um, are wanting her
beauty and desirable desirability which is our currency in this society,
(22:45):
confirmed as irresistible. And these are like fantasies again like
just to drive the home its fantasies um. Some psychologists
think has to do with the woman fearing emasculating the
man and promoting violence and to finishing her desirability if
refusing sex. And yes, all of this is very hetero
(23:06):
research um. And a couple of things to add here
is the women who reported having these fantasies also reported
higher levels of consensual fantasies and higher levels of openness
and positivity when it comes to sex as opposed to
the women who didn't. Because of that's some psychologists think
this fantasy might be an underlying desire to explore more
sexual scenarios like bondage or some other kink again again
(23:29):
again do not do this as women secretly want for sex,
because that is not a thing. It is not ever
ever a thing, not a thing. You will know from
the mouth of the woman if she wants to have sex, yes, yes, um.
And because we are going to discuss bondage and um fetishes, yes,
(23:53):
mouth of partner consent on all parties, on every party.
And again, fantasy different, fantasy, yes, And the likelihood of
someone acting out their fantasies are going to be still
in the conversation, right and communication mm hmm. Yeah, So
(24:13):
just keep that in mind. Uh, And we will be returning,
returning through that a little bit in upcoming episodes. Scientists
and psychologists take issue with the term rape fantasy to
saying it should be more accurately described as consensual ravishment
or agreed to aggression. And again, I think this is
a lot to do with our own, um past socidal
(24:34):
ideas of being manly or masculine. And again, this is
very heteronormative. But if you look at things like The
fountain Head, there's a pretty intense scene of this guy
coming after her, who is the main protagonist and the
hero of the book, with this girl who is snobby
and rich, that gets taken by him, and the same
(24:56):
idea with gone with a win when he picks her
up and ravishes hardest to and he feels regret the
next day. That is not the same thing, and for
some reason it is romanticized. Is so therefore the idea
of having a rep butler in your life sweeping your
way as opposed to, hey, this is any other the
guy I tried to touch me on punch him in
the throat and thick. I guess I can't say that,
(25:18):
I think so Okay, well I just did, But I
mean that's the difference is like this is a whole picture,
and again breaking down what is norm and what is
not norm, and then breaking down what is acceptable and
not acceptable. Yeah, um, and I know I was reading
some other studies about how um, there's a fear of
(25:40):
communicating like what you want if it's not quote unquote
normal when it comes to sex, if it is kind
of a fantasy or something that might be a little
um more scay. So it is hard to get good
numbers around it because you know, people are a little
it can be a little shy. Well it also so
there's still that shame factor that happens as we talk
(26:02):
about many many times, and whether or not we can
say what we want, because will you look on me
with shame? What do I have guilt about these feelings? Whatever?
What not? Um, there's a huge cloud over everyone, UM
with whatever they think is not normal based on their
experiences or their environment or their social ideas. UM. And
so therefore they would rather just sit in silence that
(26:25):
actually communicate and be open. Yeah. Yeah, but I think
things that are changing slowly. Yes, there are a lot
of dudes and some women who like to argue that
the attraction of monsters thing demonstrates that toxic masculinity doesn't
exist and that it's what women really want. And also
no also known like what, yeah, I just saw that
(26:49):
in a lot of places, and I was like, okay,
well no, but I want to address it. Side issue
female sea creatures giving up power and family to be
with human men, because I've seen that and a couple
of things all upon you are the Little Mermaid. The
related side issue the quote monster hotness gap. I did
not coin that or the fact that generally speaking, female
(27:11):
monsters have to be hot and overly sexualized, but this
isn't as often the case with women and male monsters.
Just think of Monster Halloween costumes from men versus women. Yeah,
like I mean you and I were talking. Also the
fact that when we look at the movie with Megan Fox, Oh,
(27:31):
Jennifer's body, Yeah, Jennifer's body. She's a monster, but she's
this hot ass monster that comes around and you know,
seduce his boys. Um. And many of the times you
see these monsters being really beautiful females and then transforming
into this ugly thing later on in time monster within
(27:51):
right right, um as where the monsters of men are
just out there. And I mean, have you ever heard
of the reverse Beauty and the Beast? Beauty and the hunk?
Hunk in the beast, not beauty of the beast. So
I hunk and the beast, and it shouldn't beauty on
the hawk. That's just like that's the reality show happening
(28:15):
on the beach, right Yeah. Yeah, Um, I just dated
myself by using the term hunk, didn't I I don't know.
I think hunk still has other thing I think so. Um,
there's also a female monsters sympathy gap. We're more likely
as audiences to sympathize with male monsters than we are
with female monsters. I wonder why that could be. Also,
(28:39):
female monsters are almost always single, and I almost went
into a huge tangent about it, but then I was like,
you gotta range almost always go after their best friends guys.
I've noticed that a lot, like they go after something
that is right, you know, supposed to be priority for females,
being caddy as it were. Um, some of the things
we're talking about here can and sometimes do fall under
the umbrella of fetish or chinks, but not always. I
(29:03):
do want to mention that a shape of Water themed
dildo on Etsy keeps selling out and after it's Oscar
when it's sold out In twenty deepness, I'm not gonna lie.
I've never seen that movie just because I couldn't understand
the premise, and I get it. I get it. By
the same time, I was like, no, there's a really
(29:23):
interesting take on that movie about how it's supposed to
be you know, romantic. But at the same time, the
director Skim Adults were right. He kind of has publicly
looked down on people fetishizing. Um, the monster are not
even fetishizing, but just kind of romanticizing. But at the
(29:46):
same time, it's like this is what the movie is.
It's it's weird. I saw that came up a lot
when I was researching this, but it wasn't exactly what
we're talking about, so I didn't include a lot of it. Um.
I've all thought this whole thing had something to do
with how women and society at large are taught to
fear female sexual desire and pleasure, going back to like
(30:08):
the taboo thing, so a lot of us have difficulty
expressing it and also suffer from low self esteem. Enter
a sexy, powerful vampire who literally cannot resist you, who
is so in love heavy quotes with you, he watches
you sleep at night, creepy, and wants to hear your
every thought. Super creepy. But I found some pieces that
argued it might have to deal with marginalized people empathizing
(30:29):
with creatures on the outside of society. There's some criticism
in that vein to that rather than depict sex outside
of our sis heteronorms, pop culture ops for monsters instead. Yeah.
I found that interesting. And related to this are more
modern take on more respectful, consensual monsters with women. Pairings
(30:49):
and attraction to them is sometimes credited to our desire
to see stories that allow women more sexual agency, that
depict more queerly relationships and or depict more non whitely
eating relationships, and Hollywood's resistance to that because these are
still straight white ladies falling from monsters as opposed to
doing that. But like we're craving something else so much
(31:11):
then what we've seen that I guess for monsters or
the way we're going with it, Okay, something else. I
read claim that vampires and werewolves, often especially in older works,
were layered with homosexual overtones and thus a fear of
spreading homosexuality. Yes, yes, um. And I also want to
(31:32):
add that I think writing fan fiction that involves sex
with the monster that isn't consensual is often a way
of working through complicated feelings around sex or past sexual experiences.
Is easier to think of someone as a straight up
monster than a human person who victimized you. That's just
my theory about some of it, not all of it
at all, but some of it. And another theory I
(31:52):
have because I have thought of episode, is that all
of us might have to do with male writers happening
with the societal scripts that tell them that they can't
control their desires and women will love them no matter
their monstrous attitude anyway, Are that that the love of
a woman will make them better the love of a
(32:13):
pure woman, Yes, I will make them pure as well, exactly.
So there's a lot going on here, um, but we're
not done. But first we have one more quick break
for a word from our sponsor. I hope this vamparsa
(32:38):
and we're back. Thank you sponsor, And we are back
with vampires, Samantha. Because I didn't want to look at
them specifically for a second, and I was. I asked
you before we did this if you had any kind
of monster attraction things going on, and you said the
one thing that I've always really really liked our vampire stories,
and I've loved them from the beginning. And this is
(32:58):
why I also say I did know about Twilight. I
also loved um Interview with a Vampire that was one
of my favorites. I even watched the one with Jim Carrey,
the really really old school one. What is it like
a comedy? Uh, good, gosh, it's so old. Yes, he
he transforms into a new vampire and it was um
(33:24):
on rotten tomatoes, but it was a film, and yeah,
he gets bitten I can't remember the quite premise. He
gets bitten and he's slowly transforming, and it's obviously it's
a bit of a comedy. Um. But yeah, I even
watched that one because I really liked it. I liked
the idea, Yeah, there's something to me when you see
(33:45):
this kind of like darkness and defining death. I think
was part of my fascination. Also, Brad Pitt was beautiful.
I will say this thing between him and Kirsten does
was really really creepy and almost did not make me happy.
He definitely didn't make me happy. It is very sexualized.
Of all, I feel like all of the monster movies,
or like that type of non human movies, vampires are
(34:08):
the most sexualized than anything else. I would agree. I
would agree with that, and that's why we have this
whole section specifically, Um, what does that say about me? Then?
Damn no, no, no, you were definitely not alone. Um.
So I found a lot of theories about why we
(34:30):
have a fascination with vampires, and one of the and
while they're so sexualized, I'm one of the first things
that I ran into That was really obvious when I
read it, But I was still sort of surprised is
that it's a replacement for sex, because you're like exchanging bodily,
but you're not having sex again. It's someone who maybe
(34:51):
can't resist you, who might bite you at any time,
can offer you eternal life, eternal youth. Um unchanging in city.
I thought that was such a funny argument, but a guess,
I guess that makes sense. Like if you're you want
somebody steady at commitment in your life, then someone who
commit to you right right there you go, right a
(35:12):
safe sex symbol. I found that argument. Um the bad
boy and the allure of reforming him right or the
tortured sensitive soul. I do love a really sad boy.
I do too, and I don't. I have a lot
of friends that make fun of me for that. But
oh my goodness, I did. I like the tortured artist guy.
That was my thing. That was another episode to come
(35:35):
back to the fact that they're mesmerizing um the fantasy
of not having to be responsible, and almost always played
by conventionally attractive actors. Although the original Dracula, sure this
is our newer Sarato was not a pretty boy. No, no,
(35:56):
have you seen um? As we lie in the shadows
what we do in the show. I love I love
the show. I haven't watched the show, but I know
the movie in itself. It kind of goes back to
the old school idea of like, yeah, it's not sexy
as you think, and I love their takes on that. Yes,
I love it. Any listeners who are interested. Highly recommended
(36:18):
good movie. Um. Twilight is often seen as a metaphor
for abstinence absolutely before marriage. Edward can hardly resist Billa's
sent but he must or she will be condemned to
be a monster to putting the responsibility on the woman
from the man's desires and actions. Another example of that um,
but also complicated by the fact that she does love
(36:39):
him right um. And also complicated by the fact that
I suppose the messages there is premarrital sex as monstrous yeah, um,
and I think you're going to talk about it, but
actually he refuses to sleep with her because she wants
to be with him so badly. And I don't think
ever they've ever mentioned sex in the book or in
the movie, because well, now, I'm sorry beforehand that they
(36:59):
don't talk about it. Um. But she says something along
the time learned like because the whole bag. Oh my god,
I can't believe I know so much. The whole back
and forth is that she wants to be with him forever,
and she doesn't want to grow old and die he
lives or whatever, and he doesn't want her to be
a monster as he is quote unquote um. But she
also wants to sleep with him, and she wants to
(37:21):
sleep with him while she's still human because she doesn't
know that things will change when she's not anymore. And
the only way he will do that is if they
get married. So he is the one that puts it
on her. So she gets married at eighteen eighteen, and
for some reason that it's acceptable even this day and age,
and everybody's like super excited and no one's really creeped
out by the fight. Hey, that's really weird. But this
(37:43):
is also that religious dance, which is the writer was
very religious. Is very I don't know, and that was
part of her thing is the pale the sexual attraction.
But he was such a good guy, and it's such
a good man that he makes sure that they're married first,
and that's how her reputation it's not hard. Yeah, we
(38:04):
don't want that because you know at eight when you
get married in two thousand and five, it's completely normal. Um.
And I did read that part of the appeal of
Edward is that his love for Bella propels him to
combat his monstrous urges. Interesting. Um, and I've said it before.
We've talked about in other episodes around stalking is not romantic,
(38:27):
but through romance between Bella and Edward displays many signs
that are precursors to abuse, if not outright abuse and
stalking and controlling behavior. Pop culture has for so long
painted that as romance, and it can be hard to
unlearn what we have taught. Like Twilight is by no
means the only offender here. This is everywhere. Right, Oh no,
(38:50):
it still is every day. Once again, we talked about
fifty Gray, fifty Shades of Gray, and that just happened
the news word just released a few years ago. Right, yeah,
I mean it's everywhere. Um, but I did want to
put that in there. We are a where that watching
someone sleep against that will perhaps super creepy. Um. One
(39:10):
article claimed that the popularity of Twilight and other modern
vampires um is almost entirely straight women being attracted to
gay um okay, and women being attracted to something dangerous
yet safe, like they're powerful, but they also have a
lot of self control, like they can protect you. I
(39:30):
don't know, that's the whole, like being saved, yeah, and
being pure and walking into something dangerous once again, because
both Bella and even in Trubla, that's the same idea,
and in the old school bram Strokers Jacula with Gary
Oldman in one no Writer, Um, it's the same thing,
Jesus pure woman that comes through as an idea of
(39:52):
saving an individual. I say True Blood did a better
job of at least I guess, because they had like
what it's like, seven seasons long of exploring her sexuality
a little more and her being a little more demanding.
She dreams that she has a threesome with them. Oh yeah,
it was very stuck. But two of the vampires though,
(40:13):
Oh okay, I I don't remember that show very well.
I only watched like first two seasons and with my friends,
And again I really liked that show. But I did
like Godrick. I remember Goddrick very vaguely, and I liked him.
Alex Carscar I don't know who he was. He was
the one, oh yeah, the old human character and he
(40:37):
was one of the first vampires. Yes, I think it
really is a desire to see something different than what
we have seen UM. I also wanted to include in
here briefly that when I was researching this UM, some
examples included things for monsters that I found troubling. And
I think there is a layer of um able is
(40:57):
um and misunderstanding of mental illness that is at play,
and a lot of this UM. I just wanted to
mention that I came across some examples that I was like, UMM,
the whole this whole idea is so UM. The meaning
to women in general, UM and those who identifize them
(41:18):
all or just anybody who UM. I mean, there's nothing
wrong in delving into an imagining world, imaginary world where
you want more or you want something that is purely
your fantasy. You can think what you want. Again, I
still like vampires. I still think it's fantastic. I still
like the idea UM of that kind of fantasy realm.
(41:41):
But A I don't want to be stalked. B I
don't want anyone to draw blood from me. So yeah,
you know what I mean. But like, there is that
fine line of where do we push this idea where
women become these objects of whether it's they have to
be the representation of purity um and they should be
(42:03):
always pure and gentle and kind and and giving and
change people, which is my like my own personal struggle
in trying to be like I gotta help and fix people.
That's not the true thing, but these films oftentimes portray
that as this is the best way to be a woman,
you know what I mean, m or this is the
best way to be a good partner, and you start
(42:25):
looking at things like fifty Shades of Gray and understand.
I think what I do like about all these things
is it does portray that women are sexual and do
desire to have to be a part of that fantasy
life and to do some more exploration and that these
conversations should happen. But they do definitely like put women
in a box, and you have to be careful on
(42:46):
both of those levels. Yeah. And also, I mean with
most media that we enjoyed, I don't know about most,
but a lot of media is um an exaggeration of life, right,
Like that's why we're going is because it takes something
that maybe we feel and exaggerates it. Like Superhero movies
(43:06):
are a great example. They're still human character. I mean,
when it's done all they're human characters you can relate to,
and they're dealing with things we can relate to, put
on a bigger scale, like on a on a more
exciting imaginative scale. Right, So I think that is at
play here as well, because I mean it's just different
than a rom column. It's a little a little more dangerous.
(43:30):
You want something a little dangerous? Yeah, Um, so we're
about gonna wrap this up. Um, we didn't really get
into you except for you briefly, Samantha. Human monsters are
like dexter because I think that that is a different thing,
that is is a whole different level of like serial killers. Yeah,
(43:54):
and we kind of briefly touched on that with the
recent like the Ted Bundy documentary and the You on Netflix.
That is a different thing. Um, happy to talk about
it at a future date. But basically, human sexuality is
complicated and is influenced and shaped by a plesora of
thing when it comes out in many different forms, in
(44:14):
many different ways it does. Indeed, And um, we would
love to hear from listeners about your favorite monster movies.
If you've written any stories are fan fiction, UM would
love to read it. You can email us at Stuff Media,
mom Stuff at iHeart media dot com. You can also
find us on Twitter at mom Stuff Podcasts and on
Instagram at stuff I've Never Told You. Thanks as always
(44:37):
to our superproducer Andrew Howard, Mr Howard, and thanks to
you for listening Stuff I Never Told These production of
I Heart Radios. How Stuff works For more podcasts from
I Heart Radio, is it the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast,
or wherever you listen to your favorite show,
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Samantha McVey
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