Women and Pay Transparency

One of the ways frequently proposed to combat the gender and racial wage gaps is with pay transparency, but that begs the question - why are we so weird about money? A & B take a closer look at pay transparency, and get a little weird themselves.

Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.com

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hey, this is Bridget and this is Annie and you're
listening to stuff Mom never told you. I am happy
to be back. So I wanted to have a conversation
today around a topic that I deal with a lot. Annie.

(00:27):
I'm sure that you do. I'm sure a lot of
y'all out there can relate, and that is Hey, transparency, Annie,
is this an issue that you can relate to? I
can um. I think I have lived in a weird
bubble though, where I've we talked about it a lot
in my family. I've talked about it a lot among
my friends, but I think that in my it's only

(00:48):
my direct social group. But outside of that, Yeah, it's
something I've definitely struggled with. And when I when I
first started interviewing for jobs, I would just go in
and have no real idea what a good number to ask,
Like I I didn't know. Yeah, it's hard. I think

(01:09):
you hit on something that I want to definitely dig
deeper into in this episode, Which is one of the
reasons why it's hard is that we don't talk about it.
We're weird about money. Conversations about money are considered rude
or taboo or just awkward as hell. And so we're
not having them. And thus, in situations where it is
in our best interest to have clear conversations about money,

(01:31):
particularly money that you want or feel you deserve, that
can be tricky because of this kind of weirdness around money,
both in you know, professional settings, but also friendships like
I know how my best friend voted, I know a
really awkward sexual thing that happened with my best friend,
but I don't know how much money she makes. Right,
So we were happy to be transparent about plenty of things,

(01:53):
money is not one of them. And I recently read
this article on medium by Jackie Lou about pay disparity,
and this article literally shocked me. Why because she opens
by disclosing her own pay. She starts, I'm a software
engineer with three years of experience working at Square, a
public tech company in San Francisco. I make a hundred

(02:15):
and thirty thousand plus forty seven thousand, five hundred stock
for a total of one hundred and seventy seven thousand,
five hundred a year. She goes on to talk about
how she didn't negotiate her base salary, but she did
negotiate her four year initial stock grant from a hundred
and fifty thousand to a hundred and ninety thousand and
sort of how long she's been working at this job.
And when I first read this opening, I was like,

(02:37):
oh my god, this woman is you know, we know
all of her business. Why is she putting this out there?
And she does it for a really, really good reason,
she says, writing all of that terrifies me. Strangers and
peers may see what I earned and think I'm vastly overpaid,
or they may decide I'm underpaid. Inevitably, companies that wish
to hire me in the future will see my previous

(02:59):
salary and either anchor are my future pay at that level,
limiting me to pay increases when switching jobs, or out
of interviewing me altogether, out of fear that I will
be too expensive for them. So why share these numbers?
Because we need to talk more about how much we
get paid. Their compensation starts with greater transparency, And she
has one right of people who became aware of a

(03:21):
pay disparity only found out about it after talking to
a coworker about their compensation, which really is no surprise
because how else would you find out, Oh, I am
being paid less than this person who I un has
qualified or more qualified than, or oh I'm making you know,
how do you even know anything about what you're being
paid and how it ranks and how you feel about

(03:42):
it if you don't have these conversations. Yeah, And like
you were saying, Bridget for a long time, at least
here in the United States, talking about it has sort
of been taboo. It's something you avoid. It's up there
with politics and religion. It's a question that you do
not ask. And I do think that's changing. I remember
we sently um that on Twitter. It was kind of

(04:03):
a I don't know if it's trending, but people are saying,
if you want to know how much I make, just
dm me um. And that's part of something that you've
probably heard of pay transparency, and it's pretty much what
it sounds like. You would know how much other folks
like you are making for the exact same work, and
then you could negotiate accordingly if that number was not

(04:24):
the same as yours. Has been touted as a way
to achieve equal pay and to rectify the gender and
racial wage gaps. So if you listen to this podcast,
you probably already know that the gender pay gap is
some bull crap, but let's look at some hard numbers.
In April seventeen, National Partnership for Women and Family report
shows that black women are paid sixty three cents for

(04:45):
every dollar to non Hispanic white men on average, and
Latin has received fifty cents for every dollar a non
Hispanic white male earns, the report found, which is pretty crummy. Yeah,
that's absolutely crummy. So all of the data is super
super clear that one important way of curbing this gender
pay gap is just people being able to talk about

(05:08):
what they make. In a paper published by the I
R l e. S Journal of Industrial Relations, Marlene Kim
investigated the effects of state pay secrecy laws. Kim, who
was a professor of economics at the University of Massachusetts, Boston,
compared the earnings in six states that had banned pay
secrecy before twelve to earnings in state that had not.
Using the regression method to construct a comparison that controls

(05:30):
for other factors like workers demographics and regional wage differences,
Kim found that women's earnings are three percent higher in
states that have outlawed pay secrecy. She also found that
states that have such policies the gender wage gap is
reduced as much as twelve to fift for workers with
a college degree and by six to eight percent for
workers without. Now, this finding really makes it clear that

(05:51):
states that you can talk about your pay disparity, those
are the states where there could actually be some ground
covered for making up for these wage gaps. And one
of the arguments that you'll often here come up against
pay transparency is that essentially it'll be demoralizing. You incentivize
performance with pay, and companies want to pay their top

(06:13):
performers with more money. But studies have shown way, way, wait,
way more people think of themselves as top performers than
management does, which I just makes sense. To combat those
companies could make sure that they put in place objective
measures of success and communicate them clearly. This also is
useful when it comes to complaints from employees. If you

(06:35):
have an objective criterion, it's easier to explain differences in compensation.
It also helps employees set achievable goals. And another thing
about pay transparency is that it would do away with
a lot of negotiating around salary, which, as we've talked
about before on the show, is a tight rope that
women have to walk between undervaluing themselves or aggressively negotiating

(06:57):
and getting penalized for it. It also helps with productivity.
Employees spend less time wondering if they're getting paid enough
and report less feelings of dissatisfaction. That has definitely, definitely
been my experience. I think that as women, as people
of color, as people who are marginalized, we sort of
have to carry this really unfair burden of not knowing

(07:23):
how to necessarily walk that tight rope that you were
describing Annie that you can be if you don't, if
you don't negotiate aggressively, you can really undercut yourself and
you can be making more than you than you you
know than you are. But if you negotiate too aggressively,
like you're just expected to internally understand that how to
walk that tight rope um. I also think that one

(07:44):
of the reasons why this just doesn't make any sense
to me is that it privileges people who are perceived
to be good at negotiation. We already know that there
are a whole host of historical and cultural and societal
factors that make it so that someone who looks like
me might historically not feel comfortable being an aggressive negotiator.
But somebody who looks like, I don't know, Donald Trump

(08:04):
might have an easier time, right if you're a man,
if you're white, the perception is, oh, this is an
aggressive go get a good for him. He's you know,
he knows is worth all of that, while we had
to walk into a negotiating table with all of this
extra societal baggage that frankly we didn't ask for, that
we didn't you know, want to be saddled with. But
yet we still have to figure out how to negotiate

(08:25):
this type rope while caring. And it's really unfair, it
absolutely is. And with the whole thing around Rit Kavanaugh
and all of this research that is coming out and
all of this literature that's coming out about anger and
how it's seen as a good thing in men and

(08:47):
a bad thing in women, I was reading an article
that said, in a negotiation setting, a man that displays
anger is more likely to get what he's asking for,
or as a woman that does is more likely to
be penalized and not get what she's asking for. Which, yeah,
it's just frustrating because how are we supposed to We

(09:11):
can't win, I guess yeah, And I don't think that
when you walk into you know, a negotiating situations, particularly
for your pay, your salary, that it should really come
down to a how go of a negotiator you are
and be all of those societal things that you were
just talking about, Like it shouldn't like why should our

(09:31):
pay be tethered to all of this cultural nonsense that
we just have to, you know, slog through every day.
It's a reality, but it's really really unfair, and I
think women and other marginalized folks are are really having
to slog through this and it's just exhausting and a pain.
And like you said, I mean it keeps you from

(09:53):
focusing on your work, right, Like, if you are a
photographer and you know that an time you negotiate a job,
you are going to have to take a stroll through
coded gender and racial bullshit lane just to get what
you feel you you owe, how do you focus on
being a good photographer? It really is demoralizing and it

(10:15):
really can keep us from focusing on what we do best,
which is you know your product, what you do and
having to mind we all have to mire through this,
and I think negotiation conversations are uncomfortable for a lot
of us, for everybody. Although previous Sminty co host Emily
once told me that she loved negotiation. It was like
her favorite thing and like shout out to her. So

(10:37):
there are people out there who live for this, and
kudos to them. I am not one of them. But
you know, it's it is a distraction, and it is
it can be a bit demoralizing to be like, oh,
this is constantly something I'm going to have to constantly
bump up against and constantly be wondering, well, is this
person paid more as a person paid less? Like how
do I stack up? And I paid less because I'm

(10:59):
not as good? Like? Am I paid more? Because that's
the boss's cousin and you know he wants to make
them happy? Like all of those conversations are swirling in
your head while you're just trying to do your job,
and it's really it's it's can just really be preventative
in you know, doing your best work. I know some
of you are probably thinking, isn't it illegal for companies
to do this? Don't companies have to allow workers to

(11:21):
disclose their pay if that's what they want. Technically, that
is true pay secrecy is considered illegal under section seven
of the federal National Labor Relations Act, which protects non
supervisory employees from employee retaliation if they discussed their wages
with colleagues. However, as we know, having a law on
the books does not always mean that that is what's happening.

(11:43):
Survey found that six of private sector workers and of
public sector workers were either formally or informally prohibited by
their employers from discussing their pay with their coworkers. Um.
I've definitely experienced this where you know, the men knows
they can't formally reprimand someone for doing this, but they

(12:05):
find ways of making it clear just how they feel
about it. Yeah. Yeah, I've been in situations where it
was clearly discouraged. Um, which it shouldn't be. It's it's
strange to me now doing the research on this episode
and talking about it. I knew that was the case,

(12:26):
but thinking about it, it's strange. It's almost like the
mafia or something like, you can't talk about your pay.
It is, and this study makes a really good point
that without feeling free to inquire about just how much
comparable colleagues are earning, many women might not even know
they are making less than their male counterparts and thus
are much more unlikely to raise complaints or ask for

(12:47):
better salaries. I've dealt with that specifically. I'll never forget
one of my first jobs I was working alongside. I
was hired alongside a male counterpart and would be doing
very similar jobs. We had gone on through the exact
same training program, and we had just been off boardered
off the exact same campaign, or we held the exact
same positions, and he his starting offer was five thousand

(13:10):
dollars more than me. And I only knew this because
he told me, and so had he not told me,
I would never I would never have thought to ask
for more. At the time, I had just finished teaching
at Howard And if you if you work in an
academic setting, a lot of you might know that your
pay is really sort of tethered to your education background.
And so I didn't have a PhD. So I was
always going to be making X amount of money. It

(13:31):
was dollars a year. There was just no like unless
I went back to school and got a different degree,
that was never going to change. And coming out of
that job where negotiation just wasn't even something that felt
like you could do because it was very clearly tethered
to your educational background. My first job after that was
this job, and so I sort of didn't really know

(13:53):
that that that like negotiation was really a thing. You know,
when I got offered this job, I got my starting
offer was fifty dollars a year, which for me, like
that was I thought I was gonna be rich, you know,
I was like, Oh, that's so much money. And then
when I found out that my male colleague was offered sixty,
part of me was thinking I would never even occurred

(14:13):
to ask for sixty At the time, you know, I
was in my twenties. That seemed like an unfathomable amount
of money, and I just was never gonna even occurred
to me to even start an offer at sixty. And
that was that was what he of. That was what
his first offer was. And so, needless to say, him
cluing me into that information turned out to be this
like radical and transformative act that really reverberated through a

(14:34):
lot of my career. Yeah, and you you've touched on
something that I've experienced, and I think a lot of
people especially were an experience, but I I think that
involved in all of this is kind of imposter syndrome, right,
like feeling like you you're you're not valuing yourself as

(14:57):
much as you should be because there's something a about you,
or at least in mine, keys that I always felt like, well,
I'm lucky to have a job at all, and I
would get I don't know why, but for a long
time I would compare my salary to how much my
dad was making, because, like I said, I knew how

(15:17):
much my dad was making. And I don't know why,
because he was a teacher. I'm in a completely different
profession than him. But to me, like I didn't think
I should ever be making near as much as he was,
which is bizarre. And I've had to kind of confront
why I thought that, and, um, separate myself from that.

(15:40):
Why do you Why do you think you thought that?
I think I thought that because in my head, Oh,
there's so much tied up into it. I think I
thought he was a much more qualified professional person. He
was a lawyer, and he'd gone to school for twelve years, um,

(16:00):
and that my job was not as valuable as his job.
And also I think I just assume, I mean, he
was my dad, he was an adult like I don't know,
I still struggle with feeling like I'm a I'm a
child stumbling through this world masquerading as an adult. UM.

(16:22):
So there's a lot at play there, and I have
had to just try to move on from that mindset. Yeah,
I can definitely identify with that. UM. One thing that
has been helpful for me, I don't know if it
will be helpful for you is seeing it as a math.
You mentioned that you felt like your dad was solidly

(16:43):
an adult and that you felt like a child seeing
it in terms of experience not age, because I used
to say something that was I think is a little
bit not helpful. It's like, oh, someone I was making
the same as me, but she's twenty and I'm thirty,
and that's not the right way to think about it.
Thinking about it in terms of life, well, I have

(17:03):
been doing this for X more years than them, and
I have X more degrees and x more training, so
that you so it's not tethered to this idea of
what it is to be an adult employee versus someone
who is, you know, trying to be an adult or
masquerading as an adult but secretly feels like a kid.
Or something. I think that's great advice. UM. I know

(17:25):
that that's something that UM companies, not just in the US,
but UM France is like one of the first examples
I think of. But this whole idea of seniority and
UM just tying salary to like how long you've been
working at a company UM, and I think that is
changing too. Not that that doesn't need to be like

(17:48):
eradicated completely, but I don't think that it should be
the entire equation. I completely agree. I completely agree, UM.
I think that's a good way to think about it.
And I'm happy to see there's there's movement in some
countries around institutionalizing these things, so it's not something that
you have to that you Annie has to sort out internally,

(18:09):
but that it's something that is more explicitly woven into
the culture of where you work. Yeah, I'm happy to
see that too, UM. And this whole conversation, it's actually
a little it's worse for women who work in creative
fields like like you and I bridget. Yes, it is worse,

(18:31):
and we'll dive more into that after this quick break
and we're back. Thank you, sponsor. So Annie and I
are I consider I mean, I consider myself a creative professional.
Is that how you would describe yourself? Annie? Yeah? Yeah,

(18:53):
I think it's funny because I totally stumbled into this
whole field. But yes, I would describe myself as that.
So you might not be super surprised to learn this. Then,
while the national average gender wage gap hovers around, a
study by honey Book found that women in the creative
economy are making less and their male counterparts for the
exact same jobs. Breaking this down by annual income, the

(19:16):
researchers found that women aren't approximately seven hundred dollars while
men take in about forty five th four hundred dollars.
Does this? Does this shock you? Or you like? That
sounds about right? It's sad, but I'm almost surprised. It's
not more that the difference isn't bigger. So no, I
am not shocked. Yeah, it's it's doing the research for

(19:39):
this episode really just put some numbers and some math
behind the things I have felt in my bones for
very long, and it's just confirmed those You know, I'm
not that feeling is not coming from nowhere, it's it's
actually grounded by the math. And I think something that
you said earlier really stuck with me. The idea that

(20:01):
as a creative person or as a creative professional, or
they're they're calling it creative entrepreneur, which I had not
heard that term before, but as folks who make money
in in a in a creative pursuit, it is this
idea that we should be lucky to be paid at all.
And you mentioned that earlier, that you that you felt
lucky to have a paying job, kind of regardless of

(20:21):
how much you were being paid. And I think that
working in the arts, you know, if you're a painter
or a photographer, or an event planner or you know,
a podcaster, I think there is this undercurrent that what
you do is not actual labor, it does not take
actual skill. People should feel free to request that you

(20:43):
do that for little or no pay, and that you
should be happy if you get If you get a
check for doing it, you should just shut up and
be happy. Yeah. I have experienced so much of that.
I'll never forget once in uh. As I've mentioned before,
I do some acting, and um this the industry is

(21:04):
pretty notorious for not paying at at like a when
you're starting out. Um to the point I'm surprised when
there's pay involved, and it's generally you'll get paid in
real footage which you'll probably never see. That's just a
show that you've acted in something. So you're literally acting
in something to show that you can act. Um. And

(21:26):
this one guy told me once you have better chances
of winning a billion dollar jackpot in the lottery than
making being successful as an actor, like making a paycheck
that could like you could live off of. And I
catch myself thinking that all the time and it's just bizarre. Um,
but yeah, yeah, that idea that you're lucky to be paid,

(21:50):
that you're there's four thousand people in line behind you
willing to do it if you're not going to do it.
Oh man, I mean that is there's so much to
unpack there. Um. That feeling I think as as creative professionals,
especially that if you don't like this, there are a
hundred other people out there that would kill for the
opportunity to do this for free. They would pay us

(22:11):
to do it. That's that and I think that's not incorrect,
but that kind of twisted, like like idea that if
you're not happy, there's the door, there's we have we
have ten people waiting to replace you. I think that
is so damaging, and I think that it's a it's cyclical,
like that's what keeps us working for free, some of us,

(22:33):
you know, there is there are the there's this huge
conversation right now happening in writers communities about whether or
not a writer should work for free, and I certainly
don't wanna. I think it's I think it's more complicated.
I actually think that in the writing field it's not
always black and white, but that one of the arguments
I've seen a lot is when you accept free work

(22:53):
for writing, you're making it easier for the industry to
undervalue all of us. And I think whether or not
logistically it works out so that you have to sometimes
take a free, you know, gig or not, I think
that's true that when you feel like you have to
accept a free gig, it makes it easier for someone
else to say, oh, well, I didn't pay her for

(23:15):
that piece of that piece of writing, I'm not gonna
pay the next person. And there's a market for people
willing to do it for free. And I think it
does kind of when when you work in these industries,
it does kind of warp them. I want to back
up really quickly and could point out some of the
specific industries where the gender pay gap is worse by far.
Female dujs and musicians fired the worst, earning half of

(23:37):
their male counterparts as wages. Photographers are in sixty cents
to every male dollar, event planners bringing about of a
man's income, and cinematographers fared the best, dropping the gap
to twelve cents. So, you know, having known a lot
of people who work in these industries, DJs, photographers, event planners,
I think these are industries where people will just expect,

(23:59):
you know, like I have to pay for this, Like
you're just taking pictures, you're clicking a button. I shouldn't
have to pay you for what I could do myself,
you know, somebody would do that for free. And I
really do think that perception is what keeps these particular
creative economies from being more fair. Yeah, I agree, And

(24:21):
recently we've had some pretty public examples of this, like
in Hollywood, um, after the Sony Hack, we found out
that Seth Rogan was making ten million dollars more than
co star Charlie Thearron, or in the case of the movie,
all the money in the world when it was revealed
that Mark Wahlberg was paid ten times the amount of
his co star, who had the same amount of screen time,

(24:42):
Michelle Williams. Um for salary for angling that happened around
the reshoots. It's actually kind of complicated, but the difference
was one point five million to eighty dollars per d
M for food and water. So Michelle Williams was getting
eighty dollars a day per d M like to pay
for food and water. Um, And that came out to
be less than a thousand dollars total, which is ridiculous. Yeah,

(25:06):
that is so ridiculous. And these are big stars, right,
Charlie's Throne, you know, Michelle Williams, these are these are
A listers, and I just think, you know, it's important
to point out, you know, it's it's ridiculous that someone
as famous as Charlie's Throne or Michelle Williams would have
to deal with this, but that if they're dealing with
this as women who are creatives, it's imagine how you know,

(25:29):
your favorite YouTuber, your favorite you know essayist, your favorite podcaster,
Imagine what it's like for them if these super rich,
mega famous A listers are dealing with this bullshit in
this in the such ridiculous ways. You know, the people
who are making the content that you love to consume
a lot of times are dealing with it in worse ways.

(25:50):
And I just think we need to talk about it,
like we need to talk about the fact that, you know,
you might think that someone is living one kind of
life style because you see them on YouTube, becus them
on TV, whatever, but that is often very much not
the case. Yeah, I used to work almost exclusively in YouTube,

(26:12):
and I was fortunate in the way I was being
paid to do other things and it was part of
my like salaried work, so I was getting paid. But
I would get this spreadsheet from YouTube every month, and
it was this massive spreadsheet and all everything was so
small and difficult to read. But then like you scroll, school, school, scroll, scroll,

(26:32):
and you get to the bottom line, and for like
hundreds of thousands of yews, I would make sixty nine
cents or something, I mean, nothing, nothing, What am I
gonna do with sixty nine cents? And so so why
is it's it's that's almost a sort of like golden
handcuffs thing where you're thinking, well, you know, I get
to have a platform I get to talk to people,
I get to make videos, and I get that is fulfilling,

(26:56):
but financially it's not even worth your time. Like at
a certain point, it's it's that that six cents, Like
what are you gonna do with that? I don't know.
A part of me was like, please don't even send
me that. I know exactly. I've worked job where it's
like it's not even worth it. Two invoice, like this
is I'm being paid so little. I'm a currently a freelancer,

(27:18):
so I worked for myself. I pay taxes on this,
so like at a certain point, I'm paying you for
the privilege of working for you. So it's it's just
this really weird situation where the creators sometimes are the
ones who are who end up in an inadvertent way,
even though they're being paid, kind of working for free anyway. Yeah, yeah,

(27:39):
it's it's it's strange. Um, we used to call it
the wild West because you couldn't figure out how to
make money on the internet anyway. No, like no one could.
But eventually something's got to give. We've been in the
wild West for a long time now. Yeah, and I
think you see it with how the media endscape is

(28:00):
shifting and changing. I mean, people lose paying work every day.
Like I think the I think the economy is really
switching toward freelance, project based, gig based work for creatives,
which you know has its own weird pitfalls. But I
think that the question of how do you get fairly

(28:21):
contributed for the work that you produce online? Oftentimes you know,
like you and I have researched a podcast, it takes
a while, Like we don't just come to the microphone
with you know, this is as as good as we
are at this, This is not you know, improvisational. It
takes a lot of research, a lot of work, and
I think that's true for a lot of creative folks

(28:41):
out there, even though people might not see that labor.
So how do we produce a landscape where people can
be compensated fairly for what they are producing? I don't
have the answer, yeah, um, but a step in the
right direction is what we're talking about, right, like being
transparent about it, um. And one of the sad things

(29:05):
about this is that a lot of women don't even
realize that it's a problem. Right, Yeah, that Honey Book
surveyaby we're talking about, They surveyed over three thousand creative entrepreneurs. Now,
of these entrepreneurs believe men and women are paid equally
in creative industries, even though the gender wage gap is
worse for creatives than traditional industry. So the creative industry

(29:28):
is actually worse than other industries in terms of gender
pay disparity. But yet, because of the weirdness of the
creative industry, and I think for some other reasons as well,
which we'll get into, a lot of folks kind of
don't even realize there's a problem, and there is a problem,
you know, the sad realities that some of your favorite
content creators are probably not making a ton of money.

(29:49):
The researchers discovered that there are far more freelance and
self employed women than men living below the poverty line.
Over female creative entrepreneurs are making us than nine dollars
per hour, compared to only of male creatives. For nearly
a quarter of the women studied, that number drops below
five dollars, putting them well under the federal minimum wage. Similarly,

(30:11):
only of female creatives are earning over twenty five dollars
per hour in revenue, compared to forty percent of male creatives,
And yeah, I think, like what you were saying is
that one of the big problems is that because of
the societal weirdness of talking about money, because of the

(30:32):
the you know, gender bs that we have to deal with,
a lot of us out there maybe don't even realize
that there's an issue. And I think what you were
talking about earlier is is I know, I keep coming
back to this, but I think it's it's so important
just the sort of nature of creative work being told
that like being given a platform or you know, you

(30:55):
that you should be happy that you're getting anything at
all because you're able to cut a check, talking into
a microphone or whatever, or like painting a picture or
taking a photo or planning an event, that you should
be grateful for anything that you get. And if you
ask any questions one you look ungrateful, and too there's
the door because there's a million other people out there
who would kill for this opportunity. And I think that,

(31:17):
like that thing is such a gross, a gross perspective.
Gabby Done, the author of Bad with Money. She actually
went on an episode of Keep It with Ira Madison
and Ira and Gabby had this amazing conversation about their
time working at BuzzFeed and how all of this came
into play. Here's here's what she had to say. It's

(31:37):
like these companies too, like they pay you so little
for the privilege of working for them, and it's supposed
to sort of be like, well, we're paying you an exposure,
but we did like multiple episodes on. An exposure is
not going to pay your rent or buy you dinner.
So yeah, this is you know that that feeling is
one hundred percent in my life. Like I was driving

(31:58):
in a car when I heard this this interview, when
I thought, oh my god, that's me. Like I almost
had to pull over because I thought, yes, she actually
verbalized how I feel that you sort of get these
golden handcuffs where you feel kind of afraid to make
waves or ask questions or even just inquire about how

(32:19):
much you're being compensated because you're made to feel like
you should just be grateful for getting anything at all. Yeah,
and um, I, like I said, that's that's been pretty
much my entire experience in the field of acting. Um,
And I know it's most people's experience. It's not exclusive
to me at all. It's kind of a running joke

(32:41):
that not only are you not going to get paid,
you're not going to get whatever tiny thing that they
agreed to get to you to show that you did
this work to make that to get exposure, and because
you have to have it's sort of like your resume.
They won't even give you that to put on your
rest me and it's just assumed. It's it's just the

(33:04):
way it is. That is so. I mean, it's that mean,
it's like dehumanizing. You know, you've already accepted that your
worth is nothing. You've already sort of internalized like, okay,
I at the shop at the correct time, you know,
ready to go, and that is worth nothing. I am

(33:24):
worth zero on that on that front um. And then
the thing, the like pitiful thing that you negotiated for
the small pittance that you were promised, you don't even
get that, like like that feeling is so I mean,
it's a bummer. It's a bummer, and you can really
internalize it, I think and be like, oh, well that

(33:46):
means that I am worthless, right, you know, I I
think when you are have you, when you've accepted okay,
this is a crap situation. I'm gonna make the best
of it and not even getting that one nugget that
was gonna make the crap sandwich worth it in the
first place, Like, how do you make sense of that?
How do you internalize yourself as a valued, creative, talented
professional person when that is just the vibe all the

(34:07):
time and you're supposed to just eat it with a smile.
It's hard not to internalize those kinds of things, and
especially when this industry that in particular is for women
mostly based on your looks and less based on your talent.
Um there there's a commonly recited statistic that I'm not

(34:29):
sure how true it is, but it's that, um, they'll
decide within two two seconds whether or not they want
to even watch your audition just by your hit the image,
whether or not you fit the look, so they might
not you might be paying for this thing that nobody
has even watching. They're just looking, evaluating based on how
you look and going from there. And then also I've

(34:53):
heard that the number of followers you have on social
media sometimes impacts whether or not they'll watch it at all,
And so it is hard to not feel like it's
completely pointless and that it's hard not to start evaluating
yourself in that way, especially if you do just get
rejection after rejection after rejection, then it's hard. Um. I

(35:18):
love doing it, and sometimes it's sad because I feel
stupid for trying to do it because almost it feels pointless. Yeah,
I can something. I'm really I'm like hearing in your
voice and I'm veoing it on it because I certainly
know what it feels like when you do something that

(35:39):
you love. Right when you speak, when you talk about acting,
I can tell that acting is work that you love,
that fulfills you, that makes you feel whole, makes you
feel good, and having there be something that makes you
feel so demoralized attached to work that also makes you
feel good is a total mind. And that's that's how
I feel too. Where you know, I would look at
these people were writers or podcasters or made things or whatever,

(36:05):
and I would think, you know, they're probably making so
much money. But knowing and who knows that that's true.
I think that it's one of those things that you know,
when I see someone that seems so successful and it
seems like they've hacked this whole system. In my mind,
I come up with the story that like, oh, they're
probably working out a million things behind the scenes that
you don't see, and they're probably really happy. They probably
you know, live in a sustainable home that's not chaotic.

(36:28):
They probably you know, go to the dentist regularly, they
probably have health insurance. Like all of these things, all
of these insecurities that I feel about trying to be
a creative professional and pursuing this as a goal, because
that's something that I like, I project on them, and
it really it makes you feel crummy. You know, you
you want to do the thing that makes you feel good,
but when that thing is also attached to this constant

(36:51):
sense of undervaluing and constantly feeling like, oh, I'm not
worth x amount, I'm not worth this, it's just such
a mind I can't even really unpack it. It's just
so intense. And I think the key is, how do
we not internalize that? And how do we put that
on industries, on outlets, on media companies, on casting agents

(37:13):
and say, hey, y'all are actually perpetuating a system that
makes a lot of us feel like garbage and we
don't know what to do with it, Like, how do
we how do we not internalize that? But then look
at the actual systems that are making that a reality
in our lives. Yeah, and I think UM rejection sucks
and you're not being like a big baby like you

(37:35):
can handle it as an adult, but it sucks. And
to be in an industry that constantly UM does reinforce
this idea that really you have little value. That sucks. Yeah,
it does suck. And I think it is important to
remind folks that if that's how you feel, if you're
just trying to make it out there, you're Yeah, you're

(37:57):
not being a baby it you we have to deal
with things that really emotionally can be hard to process.
And if you're someone like me, where you're and I'm
sure a lot of folks are, you might be as well.
Where you feel good when your work is when you
feel good about your work. But when you don't feel

(38:17):
good about your work, when I don't feel right about
my work, I don't feel good, like I like, I
go into a dark place and I can't have and
maybe that's not healthy. But when you know the work
that I that I've chosen to do in my life
is work that I do because I care about it. Right,
my activism, I do that because I give it about
this my creative pursuits. I do that because I care

(38:38):
about it, and I care about, you know, connecting with
people and hopefully like helping people sort through complicated stuff
in society that we're all flogging through together and learning
and growing together and yadi, YadA, YadA, all that stuff.
I do that stuff because it makes me feel good
and I care about it. It's not just a job.
And for me, when I don't feel good about how

(38:59):
things are going on that front, nothing in my life
feels good, right I I can't feel good about almost
anything because that is such a internal fire inside of me.
And so you know, I was watching this this show
it's um on Netflix about a child actress and her
father was sort of her manager but was also an actor,
and he was like, oh, I never wanted her to

(39:20):
be an actor because I didn't want this life of
constant rejection for her. And I really, even though this
was fictional, I felt that I thought, Yeah, that does
that does suck? Like it does suck to have to
deal with that and then go out and be a person. Because,
as we know, we like to pretend that our work
bucket and our relationship bucket and our family bucket and

(39:41):
our friend bucket. Those are all separate buckets, but they're
actually one bucket. Like it's all intersecting, you know, career,
you in the office, it's the same as at home,
you with your friends, Like it's all one thing, and
it's just really I guess what I'm saying is that
it's really difficult to deal with that and then have

(40:02):
to go out and like be a person who hasn't
a regular life outside of that. It's like, it's it's
almost impossible for me, and I can only imagine how
it is for other folks as well. And and we
don't talk about it, so people feel like, oh, I'm
a baby, or oh I'm emotional, or oh I'm taking
this too seriously, or oh, you know, I need some
one to let it go, or oh it's not personal,

(40:23):
just business. But it can feel personal. It feels personal.
It absolutely does, because um, creative things are personal buying nature,
so it's hard not to take it that way. And
I don't know, I've I've heard a lot of advice
on like just grow a thick skin, and I think
that that's legitimate, and I've definitely gotten like toughened up,

(40:49):
but I also think that it just wears you down
no matter what, UM, and it is hard to go
out after that and not let it impact other parts
of your life. Hum. And another part of this conversation
is I feel and I'm sure you probably feel the
same way, bridget that, UM, A lot of people seem
to think that, um, creative work isn't really work. Yeah,

(41:14):
I've definitely I've kind of experienced both of that. I
know people that assume that because they hear my voice
on a podcast, that I'm wealthy, which is hilarious to me.
That's so funny. Um. I've had people assume that the
work that we do is not really work, so why
do we get paid? But I think I think again, like,
I think we need to demystify. And that's that's part
of what I want to do with this podcast. I

(41:35):
want to we want to I want to demystify creative work. Right,
it's not magic that happens in a you know, land
far far away somewhere. But it's not nothing either. It's
not just you know, pressing a button on your phone
and calling it a day like for some shows. I mean,
I've had to get up at three am to get
on a train to the middle of nowhere to interview

(41:56):
somebody that I didn't like talking to, and then go
home and edit it all together. Like you know, it's
it's it is work. You know, I was up to
prepare for this episode today. It was up until four am.
You know, it is labor. It is work. And just
because people don't see that or don't understand that doesn't
mean it's not true. And I think anybody out there,

(42:16):
you know, I had a friend who was who was
a wedding photographer, and she was like, Yo, if you
knew the amount of people who expected me to do
this for free, it would curl your toes, you know,
if you knew the amount of people who thought that, like,
what I'm doing is just a hobby. And I'm sure
for some people it is a hobby. But if you
get good or not that, why shouldn't you make money?
Right Like you you went out and drove to the
event or whatever, Like, why shouldn't you make money for that?

(42:37):
You could have been you could have been sleeping, you
could have been doing anything else. Yeah, you're providing value,
right you. I'm assuming that a lot of times when
people ask for you to do it for free. Then
they're either someone that you know or they they kind
of say, well you can put it in your portfolio. Um,
But the reality is for something like wedding photos, there's

(43:00):
a market for that, like people pay for that if
you want them. There's value for to you and having
it done professionally and not by just I don't know
your nephew, Like not everyone can do it, or you
would have just asked exactly exactly, Oh I want that
tattooed on my forehead. If everybody can do it, you

(43:23):
wouldn't be asking me to do it, you know, if
anyone can do it, I wouldn't have been doing it
for two years if anybody can do it. Like I
remember seeing this thing on Twitter and it was clearly
like a joke, but it really made me think. Where
it was a woman who does really intricate nail art,
like fingernail art, and it was a d M where
someone was like, oh, um, how much do you charge
for this? I would love to get my nails done.

(43:44):
What's the cost? And she said, you know, however much
it cost eighty dollars whatever, and the person replied, like
eighty dollars you know, Like, how do you, how do
you expect to you know, like that's way too much money,
like like why would I pay you for that? You know,
like what's your game here? And she responded, well, you know,
I'm not the one who like I'm the one who
knows how to do it, Like I'm the one who

(44:06):
can do it, and you're coming to me, like you're
the one who doesn't have the money to get your
nails done. And it's like haggling in someone's d m s. Right,
Like if there wasn't value, you would do it yourself.
But the fact that you're coming to someone who has
that skill it's a professional, means that there it's it's ticks,
talent and work, and like that's like your tacit acknowledgement
of that. And so the whole conversation is kind of silly,

(44:27):
you know. Yeah, yeah, it's so funny how many people
assume anyone can do it, but then when it comes
down to it and we can't find anyone to just
do it for free, Like yeah, it turns out that
there are professionals and that you want one for whatever
it is that you're looking for. And what if we

(44:48):
treated creative pursuits, you know, oh, you can put it
in your portfolio. Whatever. What if you were going to
get dental work done and you were like, well, I'm
not gonna pay you in money for phil my cavity,
but imagine all the exposure that you will get when
people see my beautiful smile, you know, like or like
what if you told that to any of like literally

(45:09):
any other professional that now I'm not going to pay you,
pay you. But when people see your the great work
you did on this gall bladder surgery, I think about
how valuable that will be for you. So many people
who need gall bladder surgery will come to you because
of me. You're welcome, absolutely, So I really want to

(45:31):
continue this conversation around page transparency and let everyone know
what's up and really sort of demystify all of it.
But first a quick break and we are back. Thank
you sponsor. So when I was preparing for this episode,

(45:54):
you know, when I read that article that we started
the show with, I was like, oh my god, this
woman started her own page transparency and I found that
to be so shocking. So when I was preparing for
this episode, I thought part of me wants to do that.
I'm still unsure of whether I want to or not,
Like I have not decided, um, but I do think
it's important to have these conversations and demystify, you know,

(46:18):
pay and what people are paid and all of that.
So I'm going to do that. I'm a little nervous.
We'll see how it goes. Maybe we'll call it maybe
one who knows. But for my work at this podcast,
I make two thousand dollars a month, and if you've
ever wondered how much the podcaster make, it ranges a lot.
I work across other projects as well, for which I

(46:39):
am paid differently, But that's how much the podcast that
you're listening to, Like, that's what I make. And so
honestly shout out to Jackie Lou at Medium who inspired
me to do that. And it does feel weird, you know,
this idea of like one, are people are going to
be like, oh my god, she's massively overpaid for this,
I can't believe that's how much they pay, or will

(47:00):
they be oh my god like like neither of these
Neither option feels good. It doesn't feel good to have
people think you're overpaid. Actually maybe it does feel good
because then you're like, yeah, I'm balling. But you know,
it doesn't feel good to have people be like, oh,
that's what you did you do that for that? You know,
it's a it's a that feels crummy and bad and awful.

(47:23):
And yeah, I think demystifying what we make is important
because a lot of people just don't know, you know,
they don't know. You know, when I was first turning
out as a podcaster, I didn't know what was inappropriate.
Like I didn't know if podcasters made a million dollars
or nothing, right, because we don't talk about it. I

(47:44):
didn't I couldn't tell you if photographers make a hundred
dollars an hour or like twelve, Like, I really do
not know. And I think that that those conversations, particularly
for things that seem a bit flashy, like oh, you're
a YouTuber or you're on TV or this or that.
You know, Like I remember reading about Meghan Kelly her
her deal with NBC going south this week, and when

(48:07):
they disclosed how much she made, I was like what,
And that really put it into sharp context for me.
You know, what the network had invested in with her
show and what they were losing financially by her leaving,
Like so when I found out the concrete number that

(48:28):
Megan Kelly was, you know, making an NBC, which was
sixty million dollars for a three year contract, it really
put into sharp perspective A just how much that network
had invested in her financially and B how much they
were out because they still have to pay that money
even though she's no longer you're gonna be on the air,

(48:49):
they still have to pay that money. How much financial
investment that was, and and having that number put it
in such sharp by detail and focus to me. And
so I really do think even though it feels weird,
like I'm sure she feels weird to have everybody know
how much that deal was worth, altho maybe again it's
so much money. Maybe she's like, yeah, looks how much

(49:10):
I pulled in. Um And it does feel awkward, like
I'm trembling right now talking about this because it is awkward,
but um yeah, like like we're like working through the
awkwardness of talking about money will help get us all free.
You know, if you if you are out with your girlfriends,
you know my again, my my friends will tell me suck.

(49:33):
I know things about my friends boyfriend's penis that I
probably shouldn't know, but I don't know how much she makes, right,
Like I remember having a conversation when one of my
good friends lost her job where someone said, oh, well,
you're supposed to have six months of your salary saved up,
and I have that, And I was like, what you have?
This whole time, You've had six months of your salary
saved up and I've been paying for brunch, you know,

(49:56):
like that conversation, Like like those conversations are hello, weird
and hella awkward, but we talk about everything else with
our friends, Like we should start, Like, let's start there.
Let's start by demystifying money conversations and working through the
awkwardness and the discomfort. And again, I'm not gonna lie,
this is hella uncomfortable, but let's work through that so

(50:18):
that we can get to a place where it's not
uncomfortable to have that conversation. Because if you have that conversation,
if you get comfortable with having that conversation over drinks
with your friends, now you might feel more comfortable to
do it with your hiring manager, who's going to determine
if you make seventy or eighty thousan dollars a year, right,
you might feel more comfortable, determined, like having that conversation

(50:39):
with with a stakeholder who can really make an impact
in your life. But I think we all have to
start from a place where pay transparency and talking about
money and talking about how we make it, particularly as
creative as I think and as women, is not such
a scary awkward thing and working through that together. Yeah,
I I totally agree. And like I mentioned the top

(51:00):
of the podcast, I feel I've always known talking about
money is has been a weird thing in the United States,
but it never has been for me. So I know
I could tell you what all of my friends make exactly,
so you know, you know how much all of your
people make. Like, if it's not, it's like, is it
an awkward conversation to have? How did you come to
this information? I guess it is my question. We're just

(51:21):
we've just totally each other. I think it's it's because
we do a lot of stuff together, so when we're
planning trips. I think that's originally how it came up,
and we were like, Okay, well, what is in the
affordable range for everybody? What is what is outrageous for someone?
And then most of my friends are very um blunt

(51:43):
and just just tell you, UM, I have one friend
in particular that like she'll she'll list out. I have
this offer from here, this offer from here, this offer
from here. She's a traveling nurse. Um, what do you
think which one is the better option? She were like
part of the negotiation process. I love that. I mean,

(52:05):
but you wouldn't be able to build that supportive community
of friends if you didn't have those conversations in specifics. Yeah, yeah, exactly. UM.
And to to be transparent with you, bridget I make
UM every two weeks, I'm really bad about keeping job.
Every two weeks, I get a check for twelvellars. But

(52:26):
I am different than you that I am a salaried employee.
That's right. So I and this is something else that
I hate admitting. And I I God, people are going
to write in and like, I get it. I deserve it.
Since I'm not full time, I don't have health insurance.
And you might be thinking, why aren't you on the exchange.
There was a very complicated personal reason for that, UM,

(52:46):
involving timing and it's and it's a logistical thing that
like I will get into later or if you DM
me or like email me, I'll explain it to you.
But it's very boring, and it's very like, oh, well,
this thing happened at this date, and that time happened
at that date, and therefore we have to wait until
next year. So blah blah blah. Long story short, but yeah,
I mean basic things like it sucks to feel like
an adult who like nothing makes me feel like I

(53:09):
don't have my life together more than that thing, and
I'm very blessed and that my mom is a doctor
and that I live in a city that you can
really at least for me, if you know how to
navigate a few things. It isn't that it isn't as
awful as you might think. I guess I'll put it
that way. But you know, on Twitter recently, I was like, yeah,
self employed creative professionals when it is the last time

(53:31):
that you saw a dentist, And some of the answers
almost like, yeah, we are really making clearly making some
sacrifices in our overall lives to do this thing, and
it's okay to acknowledge that. So I'm sure there's somebody
out there, like I know other folks who are in
this podcast, family who have talked, who have talked to

(53:54):
about this, and they're like, yeah, I don't have health
insurance and have a health insurance for years, and it's again,
it's scary and like my heart is racing. It's scary
to talk about it, and it makes you feel weirdly,
it just makes it doesn't make you feel good, you know.
And I think in an industry where it's so like

(54:15):
steeped in top thirty, under thirty this and you know,
everybody wants to be successful, and like you see images
of success all the time, and you want that and
you want to know what that looks like and what
that feels like. And maybe you're projecting stuff because again,
who knows, everyone's dealing with their own stuff. But it's
just this industry is so strange because of how many

(54:39):
of these professional things are attached to how you feel
about yourself and your own self worth. And maybe that's unhealthy.
But I don't know how to how to attached the two,
you know, Yeah, absolutely, I mean it's pretty That's essentially
what it is is the economy telling you putting a
price to your word. And I will say for me,

(55:00):
I in general have benefited so much from women ahead
of me, um, because I was pretty oblivious when I
and her job market. I am assuming a lot of
people are, but they told me to ask for things
that are I wouldn't have even known to ask for.
And I've I've benefited from having this really great friend

(55:23):
group where we're very open about it. So I do
think having this is great. Yeah, totally. And I think,
you know, I want to and with talking about what
we can do, how we can get free together and
lift as we climb and all that good stuff. And
I think the number one thing is what you said,
talk about how much you make. I think it's especially important,

(55:47):
you know, if you're a man, if you're a white person,
I think it's especially important because I think we can
feel sort of boxed out. We don't know, we don't
have the information, and so having those conversations I think
is really really important. And I'm I'm so happy that
you have that that supportive community of folks in your
life with whom you can not just talk about this with,

(56:07):
but get some advice from and be like, oh, well
that's a good deal, and that doesn't feel like a
good deal, or like this is a good offer, or
you should ask for more on this offer or whatever.
You know. Having someone who can help you with those
conversations I think is so important. Um the muse puts
this really really well. They right. Instead of jumping in
head first, keep your eyes open for opportunity the next
time you're up for a raise or receive a job offer.

(56:28):
Instead of circumventing the number the thing you're talking about,
why not just say it. This is how it would sound.
My boss approved the raise I asked for, so now
I'm holding out at a steady a d K. My
goal is to be making a six figure salary by
the time I'm thirty five. Your friend or coworker will
probably feel as enlightened as you feel after being candid
about your financial situation. The more often you start opening

(56:50):
up about your earnings and your future salary goals, the
more comfortable you'll be with it, so that eventually mentioning
your income will be as easy as talking about your
insane summer electric bill. And I really like I just
loved that so much that if you start having those conversations, Yeah,
they might be weird at first, and your heart might
be racing, and you might be thinking you know this

(57:10):
is awkward and weird, and maybe it is, but that's
the only the only way out is through you know,
the only way to normalize it, so that talking about money,
which would benefit all of us, you know, talk having
these kind of conversations. The only way to get to
that point is if you start doing it. Yeah, And
and what I love about that quote is, Um, I

(57:31):
do think that a lot of people feel weird about
it at first, but it's having those conversations is good
for everyone. I think probably if you you and your
employee or your employee your coworker have this conversation, but
both parties are going to be happy that you had it,
Like I think, Um, in my experience, UM, we have

(57:56):
pretty open conversations about it in our department, and it's
awkward at first, but I think it does make it
kind of removes this tension around it because you're like, oh, yeah,
we're all on the same page. Absolutely absolutely, I'm I'm
so proud that you know, like how much your friends
and parents and brother makes you know. Yeah, I feel
really lucky. I hadn't realized how strange it strange it is.

(58:18):
I guess, Um I knew I Like I said, I
knew it was weird. Money is a weird topic, but
in my life it hasn't hasn't been so much So
another way that we can really help tackle this together
in addition to just talking about money, is making salaries public.
In seventeen, California Governor Jerry Brown vetoed a B twelve

(58:39):
O nine, the Gender Pay Gap Transparency Act. In a
state it's one of the strongest equal pay environments in
the country. The vetoed bill would have required companies with
more than five hundred employees to collect and report the
salary information for both men and women in the same
job to the state, which would be published online. And
at the federal level, Trump suspended in ecutive order put

(59:00):
in place by Obama that would have advanced paid transparency
for federal contract employees. The executive order would have required
companies to report salaries by race and gender. So you know,
there there is movement on this from other states. States
like Alaska, Illinois, Minnesota, and New Hampshire already collects and
published data on the pay gap um. But you know,
we saw the long way to go in terms of

(59:22):
making this a a normalized institutional thing where it's just
a given that you might have some idea of of
what folks are making. Yeah, and some companies are taking
this into their own hands, like Whole Foods has a
pay transparency policy. Social media startup Buffer posted employee salaries online.

(59:43):
And we've been focusing all lot on the US in
this conversation, but it isn't just a problem in the US.
I remember reading in one of my high school textbooks
that I brought up before that it was impolite to
ask got money in other countries too, So listeners from
other countries, please let us know if that's the case.
In early Iceland passed a law requiring companies prove they

(01:00:04):
have a fair pay practice in place they have more
than twenty five employees and they don't, they face a
daily fine. And in the UK they passed a similar
law this year as well, requiring all companies with two
fifty employees are more have they have to post differences
in salary between male and female employees each year. I

(01:00:25):
think that's great again. I think getting to a place
where this is not just an internalized, weird thing that
we're just expected to have inside of us, but rather
is externalized where it's like there it is in the policy.
There it is, and that you know, in the baked
into the fabric of how we are going to do business.
I think that's so important to move that weird thing

(01:00:47):
from a weird thing inside of us to a thing
on a page where you know, you can point to
it and say, oh, here's what we're doing to you know,
deal with pay the pay gap. Here's how it's being challenged.
Here are your rights, here's what you can do. Here's
information you can find as opposed to having to like
sneak and find out in weird ways and all of that. Yeah,
and it's something else that we can do um or

(01:01:08):
that you can do if you're a hiring manager, is
don't base salaries on salary history. Absolutely, you know, since
women tend to earn less and pretty much all occupations
when compared to men, the practice of being asked to
tell once previous salary can compound these inequalities and follow
us for the course of our entire careers. If you

(01:01:29):
have to tell someone what you made at your last
job and they're going to tether your your next pay
offer with that, you really are kind of starting from
a from a lower point, right that that increases the
likelihood that women would have to negotiate from a lower
starting point than their male counterparts. Yeah, I've definitely fallen

(01:01:51):
into this chap of thinking. So that's just the way
I think about it is, basing it on my salary history.
And when I first interviewed, like my real job, a
real job, I I totally blanked when they asked me
how much I was looking for, how much I was
looking to make, and I said some ridiculously low number.

(01:02:13):
And a part of it, too, was I felt very
underqualified for the job, like maybe if I say something
really low, then I'll be more likely to get it.
I regret it looking back, but I was in college.
I was new to the whole thing um, and I'm
fortunate also managers should just be this way. But by

(01:02:34):
the person who was interviewing me said they would never
pay anyone below thirty dollars a year, which is way
more than I asked for. Oh my gosh, I'm so curious.
What did you ask for? I feel like like, looking back,
it was a blur. I think I said, like, I'll
pay you, how about that? Yes, I'll make you cookies

(01:02:54):
every day. I'll be such a delight. Well, Annie You'll
be happy to know that recently, states like California, Delaware, Massachusetts,
in Oregon, along with the cities of New Orleans and
New York City and Philadelphia and Pittsburgh, now I've pretty
much banned the act of asking candidates their salary histories
from previous jobs, and so that might have made college

(01:03:17):
job applicant Annie's life a little bit easier. I I hope.
So I really went through a string of very bad
job interviews. I like to think I've gotten better now.
It's really ironic because I used to teach a class
on how to do a successful job interview. I'm not
sure why. God, I have not had a job interview

(01:03:43):
in a very long time. I can only imagine. I mean,
I God, I mean, listen, I I it's been such
a long time I've had an office job that I
can only imagine I'm terrible at it. I remember once
at a job in of you being interviewed to blog
about politics for Think Progress. They asked me, what is

(01:04:05):
probably the most obvious question, like if you were preparing
for questions that you might be asked in an interview
like this, they asked, what are some other like I
was gonna be a political blogger? What are some other
blogs that you read? And I wake up every morning
and I read ten political blogs, right like I eat, sleep,
and breathe political blogs. But I pulled a total Sarah Palin.

(01:04:26):
My mind went completely blank, and I think I just
said all the good ones and I blurted it out.
It was so bad. I did not get the job.
They were very right not to give me that job.
But um, yeah, I should. I should take your class.
I once my worst job interview was the day after
my twenty one birthday, and um, I had to leave

(01:04:47):
in the middle of the job interview to go vomit.
And then I came back in and she she said, so,
I see your birthday was yesterday, And I said, and
she was, like, twenty one And I did not get
that job either. Yeah, I'm sure she knew what was up.
Oh man, why did you schedule a job interview for
that day? That was very foolish and ambitious of me. Oh,

(01:05:11):
that's like when you when you go when you know
you've got a night plan and then you schedule like
an early flight like present you you should know future
you is not going to make that flight, but you
always you always have hope you know. Yes, I like
that you talk in those versions too. I always blame
past Danny for all of my mistakes. Oh Um, Past

(01:05:32):
Bridget and I we have a lot, we have a
lot of forgiving to do. We have to like we
have to like go to like a retreat and make
make make amends with each other because I have a
lot of phones to pick with that lady. What a
retreat that would be, I can only imagine. Well, we
hope this episode has been transparent and helpful and enlightening

(01:05:55):
for you listeners. I mean, if you're a man, definitely
go to hello, woman, how much you make so that
she can get her life? Yeah? Yeah, I think this
is a great conversation to to continue. And I mean
just this morning I saw something about pay transparency in
UM in Silicon Valley especially, So I'm glad that we

(01:06:19):
were having these conversations and hopefully we will make it
less weird to talk about money. And in the meantime,
we would love to hear from you listeners. You can
email us at mom Stuff at how staff works dot com,
and you can find us on social media on Instagram
at stuff I've Never Told You and on Twitter, at

(01:06:39):
mom Stuff Podcast, Thanks as always to reproducer Andrew Howard,
and thanks to you for listening.