Women In Entertainment Production

What is it like for women working behind the scenes of film and television these days?

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hey, this is Annie, and you're listening to stuff I've
never told to you. And today we're going to do
a bit of a round table in classic Sminty fashion.

(00:27):
We are recording this the day after the Oscars, so
we kind of missed the what we call on the
biz tent pole event. But we're gonna be talking about um,
women and gender in production in television production and movie production.
And I am joined by two fantastic people for this conversation.
I'm so excited. Could both of you introduce yourselves. My

(00:47):
name is Aaron. I am an onset dresser, uh sometimes
an assistant prop master or a proper person, and I
kind of got my set legs in the A D department.
But these days I'm home with a baby and I'm Angela.
I am a director and worked as a first dady
for a long time, and I had a baby a

(01:10):
long time ago. My babies are old and we will
be talking about that, what it's like to be a
mom and a new mom in the industry. UM. And
as I've mentioned on the show, outside of this whole
podcasting thing, I am also an actor, um and some
I've done some writing, so I've got some stories too.

(01:33):
I used to do cinema cinematography actually like lo lo
lo lo key, but I do have some experience in that. UM,
and we're yeah, we're gonna be talking about what it's
like as a woman to work in production and all
kinds of things that tangentially come off with that. But
first let's look at some numbers, because there are a

(01:56):
couple of reasons why we're talking about this. UM. This
office where we are recording from now is located in Atlanta, Georgia,
and due to some tax incentives passing two thousand eight
UM Georgia, Atlanta, it's kind of become the Hollywood of
the South. UM. Seriously, so much stuff is filmed here

(02:17):
every other day. I see those yellow signs that indicate
that something is filming, big stuff, small stuff, TV movies,
all kinds of things. From seventeen to June, Georgia film
and television production accounted for four hundred and fifty five
productions two point seven billion dollars in direct spending. And
that four fifty five is just the stuff that qualified

(02:38):
for the tax incentive, UM, which you have to spend
five hundred thousand dollars in the state for a thirty
percent tax credit. And worth noting is that two point
seven billion dollars number is a little squidgy and up
for debate. Some say it's probably half that, but in
either case it's a lot. Um. It doesn't take into
account tourism like we have us is that drive around now,

(03:01):
it's like that's where The Walking Dead is filmed. Um
And the infrastructures that have been built up to support
the industry. According to the Motion Picture Association of America,
dred jobs and nearly four point six billion dollars in
total wages in Georgia has come about as results of
the entertainment industry here. But all of that said, there

(03:25):
are some pretty negative stats, shall we say, um, and
to reiterate, women do make up fifty percent of movie gobers.
We do not see that reflected on screen in women
made up of protagonist, and we also don't see it
reflected behind the scenes. Statistics from report called Celluloid Ceiling

(03:48):
found that of the top one hundred grossing films, women
made up four percent of directors are possibly eight percent,
but either way not even breaking double digits. Only five
women have been nominated for Best Director at the Oscars,
and only one woman has one, only four were led
by a woman of color. Female directors also faced what

(04:10):
is called a financial cliff and movies and TV. They're
more likely to be involved in smaller projects as opposed
to bigger budget productions. The same is true of solo
female protagonist. I also found this stat interesting. Male characters
were more likely than females to have work related goals
for two percent versus female characters were more likely than

(04:30):
males to have goals related to their personal lives versus thirteent.
Women make up fifteen percent of the writers, only three
percent of cinematographers. Only one woman has ever been nominated
for the cinematography category with the oscars, eighteen percent of producers,
eighteen percent of executive producers, fourteen percent of editors. Those

(04:52):
are some disheartening depressing stats. Movies with at least one
female director were more likely to employ a diverse work
for and if we look at TV, according to the
u c l A and seen quote, only of all creators, directors, writers, producers,
executive producers, editors, and directors of photography working on broadcast, network,

(05:13):
cable and streaming programs, we're women of the programs considered
had no women directors of photography percent had no women directors,
seventy six percent had no women editors, seventy percent had
no women creators, had no women writers, had no women producers,
and had no women executive producers. So that's kind of

(05:36):
where we are. Yeah, with your experience in the industry,
both of you, does this I mean, is this what
you see? You reflected projects that you've worked on. Yes,
it's a very certain I worked mostly and I worked
mostly in television, so that those are all numbers for features.

(05:57):
I know that the directors Gill does numbers um for
episode of television to percent female. Um, I'm a black woman.
I think it was two. Every year jumps between two
to three percent women of color. Part of the behind
the scenes things we have going on now, too, is
that the the fight for equality for women sometimes it's
not as intersectional as it needs to be and turns

(06:18):
into a like I see I'll be in the group
of women that are fighting for equality, and then somebody
will say something about, well, these men of color are
getting more whatever, and then it turns into like a
It's like it needs to be intersectional in order for
it to be successful, and it feels like the people
who when women win that it feels like white women

(06:41):
are the ones that are women winning. So when you
see the numbers, it's mostly white women too. So I
think that's something that's important that we talk about, is
not just how many women, but how many women of
color are breaking through because there's a lot of us
out there too, absolutely know and trying to trying to
do it, and there's you know, I think, UM, a
lot of the access programs that they have in television

(07:02):
have now started to branch off into future films, which
is great, but I think there needs to be more
efforts below the line because editors and writers are the
ones who move up to become director. A lot of
times can move up to become directors UM dps. You know,
for this is for episode of television that the top

(07:22):
three categories of people that move up to you know,
as first time directors for reposide of TV are DPS,
editors and writers. And if most of those are white
men M and n A d S, I'm sorry for
st d S UM. And if most of them are
white men, then it's like then, yes, we need to
get more women and people of color in there. But
it's like getting them into the pipeline is where it's important.

(07:44):
And if people like Aaron are bullied, for lack of
a better word, out of a department because you're because
of sexism or because of racism, then then you've lost
that person. And I think that's a lot of the
complaints that I hear from women of all shades is that, well,
I it's fine for this, me too, but I've already

(08:04):
left the business. It's fine that this is finally coming
to light, but I already missed. You know, now I'm
sixty years old and missed my chance. Or you know,
what can we do? I think it needs to be
not just oh we need more people that are up
at these top level levels. I think we need people
on all floors of more women and more people of

(08:25):
colors in order to get a more diverse base of people.
Absolutely yeah, um when I mean my experience has been
in the in my world of acting like I have encountered.
I have lost jobs because I turned down un wanted advances,

(08:47):
and I it breaks my heart because I think of
people who think this is this is my only chance.
I have to go along with this, and then I
guarantee you they probably didn't get it anyway. Um, and
just yeah, have in this your career impacted by by
harassment and by bullying, and um it maintains the status quo.

(09:11):
And it just really makes me angry that that you,
you know, you're ending up where perhaps you you didn't think,
but not for a good reason, like someone basically forced
you out of a career choice. Yeah. Yeah, And it's
also made me kind of wary of accepting jobs with men.

(09:37):
I don't know. I tend to say yes to the
jobs where my superiors are women, or my superiors are
men that I know to be good people who um,
you know, are not sexist and who believe in me

(09:57):
and think that there's not a thing that I can't
do that any guy could do, you know, Um, that
are empowering. So yeah, yeah, I've I've been called all
kinds of names for nothing that I even did at work.

(10:18):
This was because I wouldn't take this person, um partying
on a weekend. Ooh yeah, I got fired for it
and it was all over text. Um. I actually wound
up with my first onset dressing gig right after that
on your show, Angela. Yeah, which was that was that? Yeah?

(10:42):
It was and it was just it felt so good
to go from that to like seeing you on set.
And I remember I like, I like shed like some
tears of happiness. I was just so like it felt
like I was just coming home and I was safe.
And my one of my dear friends who's kind of
big sister of mine. Um, she and her sister both

(11:04):
worked as set decorators for a long time and now
they have their own production company and they are, um,
they're trying to do more producing and directing themselves. But uh, yeah,
I I was with them for years as their onset dresser,
and uh it was a really good place to be.
And onset dressing is a is a job that a

(11:25):
lot of people think of as being kind of a
moon's job because you're doing a lot of how you
lifting and working with a lot of tools and you know,
climbing ladders and all that kind of stuff. But um,
I wound up getting hired repeatedly, not just by them,
but by by by good men, because um, I was

(11:49):
smarter than a lot of the burly guys that could,
you know, probably lift more than I could. I I
knew how a set worked, and I learned how a
set worked from people like Angela. You know I could,
I I was smart. So, UM, I really think that
uh people need to start looking beyond the braun and

(12:10):
realizing that women have a lot going on that make
us a very integral, important part of a set. Women
can see past the hubris and see past the uh
making the shot the number one priority. Women are able
to see that these are people, but these are people

(12:34):
that are working, that are trying to make this happen
as a team, and the people that make the movie
are the most important part of it. So I also
wanted to have a friend come in who is a
trans filmmaker, and she has the most interesting point of view.

(12:55):
She started filmmaking UM when she was still presenting as
a man, and now she's presenting as a woman. So
she's told me that the difference in treatment that she
has gotten from back then to now. My only comment
is that when you said women can see past the Huberists,

(13:17):
to me, I think it's a personality because there's men
that are out there that are just as is aware
that it's not we're not saving lives, We're just making
a movie. So let's keep half, but let's put on
a show kids but we don't have to like do
anything stupid or beat people up or you know, even

(13:40):
as a director, I'm like, you know, could I do
another take? Sure? Will? I know? Because we all need
to go home right, right right, And just because I
have we're budgeted for twelve hours and it's only been
eleven and a half. It's still been eleven and a
half hours. Let's go, you know. So to me, I
feel that with this one of the advantages of this

(14:02):
me too movement, which you know, originally started with just
about sexual harassment, has now branched into just humane treatment
of human beings, where people are recognizing that you just
can't be an asked you know, like sorry, you just
can't be a jerk, you know, all the time and
expect people to say, oh, well, they're a genius at

(14:24):
what they do, so it's okay, Now we don't care
how much of a genius you are. You have to
treat people with respect. So the fact that that now
is seems to be the default is great. Like I
was the first a d on a show called Atlanta
which Donald Glover and everybody seems knows about it, right,
and they first one like the Golden Globe and they

(14:45):
got all this stuff, and you know, they get the Emmy,
and I was like, yeah, that's nice. But like like
Donald brought the Emmy to work so people could take
pictures of it, which was he literally just left it
out on a table and then put for the Graham
and I had to go in his office or something,
and I was like, hey, I just have to tell you,
like the Emmy's cool and everything. But in twenty at

(15:08):
that point might have been the beIN like twenty three
years ago. In twenty three years as being on sets,
this is the only set I've never been mansplained on,
the only one. And this is a show about dudes
that's run by dudes. I'm usually the only woman in
the scout van unless the set decorator is along for
the ride. Um, it's all dudes all day long. And

(15:31):
I say, hey, we should do this, and they say okay,
And there's no second guessing or no wondering whether I
know what I talk I'm talking about. And obviously the producer,
if they had won a way in, they'll do what
they want to do. But you even you know, as women,
we know the difference between asking a question or checking
up on whether or not I know what I'm talking about,

(15:51):
or not trusting that I know what I'm talking about.
I had. I had trust on that show that I
was never shown in any other show before. And and
it's funny, like we did the pilot for that was
almost entirely female. A D staff for second and second second,
we're off females all of the p as, but one
more female and and a mix of pete, women of

(16:13):
color and white women in terms of the mix of people.
And at the end, people are as a pilot, they're like,
that's the this is the best most efficient run set
we've ever been on. And I was like, this is
the first time we've been allowed to just do it.
That's why, Yeah, you know. And it wasn't like I
was like, I'm going to have an all female crew.
It was, oh, who's my favorite? Second second a D?
And I called Rondo. I called Rondo and I got

(16:35):
up who else is my favorite? Second? Second? I call
and everybody that I was, my favorites that I always
called first all were available. So it wasn't that I've
had this secret plan to make it all female. I
just called the people that I like working with that
I know worked well with me, because again, like I've
worked with good, really good second A d s that
were male that I would have to like not handle

(16:57):
because I don't deal with that kind of crap, but
that I would have to check because they were being
mean to some of the other people in the department.
Or they would say Okay, if I said I could
do this, they'd be like, they would say, oh, but
we should do this, and I'm like, no, do this,
and they go okay, and I would have to say okay,
say say okay one more time and see and see
which one of us still has a job, right, you know,

(17:20):
So having to deal with that, it's just you know,
Roonda says okay, then I know it's just Randa being Rhonda,
and it's not kind of sexy. Ronda is allowed to
do that too, because she's she's good. She is. Yeah,
you're right, I should. There are some absolutely absolutely phenomenal
men that um that we work with. I've yet to

(17:44):
meet a key grip in Atlanta, I don't like. I
don't know, there's something about the Atlantic Grips that are
just there's there's something just absolutely lovely and delightful, and
even if they're not like delightful. They're just just good guys.
The grip departments I found, Yes, the gathers too, affors
to Cornwall, we really do have a wonderful family of

(18:05):
people here. And Atlanta. Yeah, I mean, but I also
think Atlanta because I was in l A for about
twelve years of working, and I think in l A
it was like people have been doing it enough that
it's like just the job. I think the business here
is new enough that people are like, we get to
work on a movie today, Like even if they've been
doing it for a long time, there's a joy of

(18:26):
isn't it cool that we're doing this and not like
working at McDonald's, you know, or whatever being accountant or
whatever jobby job other people have. Like there's still a
joy to it. And that's why I remember hearing a
story back when we first got the Incynemas, when people
were first in l A. People were first flooding the
place where some you know, kacky, mean screamy DP yelled

(18:48):
at one of the guys on the set in a
very disrespectful way in the grip was like, all right,
we're gonna just take our bong go home by guys,
and all the groups just left, and I was like,
that's the difference in Atlanta. In l A, they would
have yelled back and it would have just been one
of those sets that had a bunch of testesterone in here.
They're like, we're gonna take up all and go home.

(19:09):
Go find someone who's gonna put up with that, because
we're not going to be treated like that. I did that,
I do too, I have, so I feel like I
should I should give credit to at least one man
that I've worked with, because I have had some amazing,
amazing UM experiences working with men that really did care

(19:31):
about me and treated me like a daughter or a
sister or a true friend. And uh and I've had
some really good encounters with UM with with male celebrities
as well. And the one that pops into my head
is Anthony Hopkins. I think he's a walking saint. He's

(19:51):
an earth angel UM that is a person that really
knows how to stand up for the crew. That was because,
you know, besides making a good movie, that was his
main goal was was supporting the crew. UM. The first day,
he would come in with a call sheet with his
assistant and he would go around and personally introduce himself

(20:14):
to every single person on the crew, from the additional
p A to to transpo to you know, the prop
for everybody, everybody, and he memorized every single person's name,
everybody's and uh. He would hold meetings saying, I want

(20:35):
you all to know that the crew is doing an
amazing job. And he talked about each department and how
they were doing and he said, but you know what,
as actors, we need to step it up. We need
to tighten up and be more professional. And then you know,
at the end of the movie, he held a meeting
and he said, in front of the producers, I want
you all to know that there were no producers on

(20:57):
this movie. The crew produced this movie and I could
not be any more grateful to work with all of you.
That was his last day of shooting. But yeah, just
a wonderful guy, always looking out for um the well
being of others. So I had to I have to
put that in there, just to give credit where credits to.
You know, there are some wonderful, wonderful men out there

(21:20):
in this film industry. It's true. And I mean lately
all we hear about is the not so good ones.
Um and one of the things that um, we kind
of touched on throughout this episode is this the issue
of like me too and harassment. And something that I

(21:40):
have encountered is that I've worked on indie movies. Plenty
of them were wonderful, but some of them were not.
And there's no like HR that you can go to.
There's no one to really advocate on your behalf, so
you sort of have to either find a way to
deal with it, leave or or maybe talk to someone

(22:04):
else that that can that can help you. But that
is something that is definitely a problem on film sets
and TV sets and in general in production. Um, is
that something that either of you have experienced. Well, I
can tell you, even on a big budget movie, if

(22:24):
you have an incident that does go up to HR.
And this was pre me too movement, it doesn't necessarily
always help you anyway. Um, the incident I had been
talking about that kind of bullied me out of that department. Um,
it did. It went all the way up to the
HR department of a very big studio. I had legal

(22:49):
documents sent to me offering me my job back, like
I would want to work with this person again. But UM,
it was a big thing I had people producers telling
me that they were absolutely horrified that this happened. That
they have daughters in the film industry, and they know

(23:10):
how much harder we work, and and it is true.
We really have to prove ourselves, um, every second of
the day. And yeah, so I mean all this stuff
went down, I wasn't. Uh. I had people that came
out saying that they were protecting me by UM only

(23:32):
allowing me to speak to certain people, UM, with their supervision.
And I was really naive back then. UM, and I
believed that, UM, it had been kind of a a
long thing coming. UM. I've been getting all kinds of
texts that were about having threesome with this man and UM,

(23:57):
haven't I seen his IMDb? Don't I want to take
my career to the next level. Um. He would use racial,
misogynistic UM and homophobic slurs a lot, which made me
feel really uncomfortable. And this is this is all over text,
and UM, the movie hadn't even started yet. This is

(24:20):
the other part about it hadn't even started. I've worked
with this guy for maybe three weeks on UM on
a movie that came through Atlanta a long time ago,
for a couple of weeks and he thought, for some reason,
because I have tattoos and I play drums and punk
rock bands, that he could talk to me like this

(24:40):
and UM make all these you know, like sexual comments
and that kind of thing. And he would ask me
where to find blow, where to find prostitutes. Why he
thinks I would know, I have no idea. Um, so yeah,
so he started making me feel very uncomfor truble and
kept nagging me and nagging me and nagging me go

(25:03):
pick him up in my car, take him partying. At
the time, I had a boyfriend and I was also
in a band, but I didn't want to. I mean,
every everything in me was going, no, this is not
going to end well. Um. And finally I said, you know,
I can't. I'm going to bed and I have banned
practice in the morning. And that's when the slew of

(25:25):
texts came through, calling me and telling me, you know,
my to dry to be on his team and uh,
she's you're no professional. Um, all kinds of threats about
my career, and UM, I didn't know what to do.
I cried a lot. UM talked to um some of

(25:46):
my my, my big sisters in the industry, and handed
it over to my union and then I got called
into the office. Everybody hid, and it is weird. They
cleared the offices out, had everybody hide in their respective offices,
went straight to the producer's office with my phone with

(26:09):
the text to prove that I hadn't fabricated them, and
that's when they told me how sorry they were, and um,
you know, I said, I just I want to make
sure that this doesn't happen to anybody else. Oh, yes,
we're just horrified, you know we I have a daughter
that works in the film business. I know how hard

(26:30):
it is for for women. I was then told by
somebody who was supposed to be protecting me that if
I went any further with this that I would be
blackballed from working for this particular big studio, and also
told that there is no lawyer that I could ever
hire that would ever be able to stand up to

(26:52):
the lawyers at this big studio. And there was nothing
in me that was thinking I want to sue. I
wanted to get money for this. All I wanted was
for this guy to not work on this show, and
I wanted him to learn a lesson and not do
this to anybody else. Well, he kept his job, and

(27:14):
my friend who was to be the UM, who was
the assistant Prome master UM a woman. I was forbid
from talking to her, and I was so young and
naive and stupid then like I had like what um,
So I didn't talk to her for months and and
this person wound up making her life a living hell. UM.

(27:38):
They had a man of color come on and he
kept asking him where to find cocaine and and prostitutes.
My friend, who was a woman who stayed on the show,
quit with like one week left because he was just
so horrible to her. UM. Other women I know that
came in unknowingly, you know, UH wound up being harassed

(28:03):
and traumatized. And this man continues to work. And the
weird thing is that after all of that, he recommends
me to people. So this day I don't know why
or what he's doing or what kind of mind game
this is UM. And then I, uh, I was dumb
enough to work for his brother on a different show

(28:27):
who told me he was nothing like his brother. And
this man went and had his own backhanded way of
absolutely ruining my life for three months and messed with
my my paychecks would have paychecks that came back with
UM a way lower rate. And when I started with

(28:49):
I had my position messed with. I had been told
that I would be assistant prop master after Um the
prop master got fired by the producer ers, and also
there had been a big safety incident that happened UM
and a lot of people left because of that, and

(29:09):
I wanted to leave too, and UM they said we'll
make you the assistant prop master. And I think it
was just because there was no continuity without me, So
they had me as assistant prop master for a week.
I brought in one of my great friends who's a
prop person and production designer and now she's working as
a producer sometimes and screenwriter. Had her come in and

(29:33):
we crushed it for a week, and then all of
a sudden, I find out he's bringing in this guy
from l A because he can't find anybody. It reminded
me of your story, Angela. He can't find anybody in Atlanta.
So UM, this guy comes in and immediately things are weird.
He shows up with assistant prop master on his badge.

(29:55):
He's on you know, on set, and we're both like
running the props on set. It's a the assistant prop
master's job to run set, and the third kind of
does a lot of prep and you know, UM keeps
the truck and you know typically UM so slowly but surely, Uh,
this guy UM kind of took over my job. My

(30:17):
pay got lowered. The prop master would come by in
a big group of people when I was doing my
job and say something like you got a zip on
your face? Um, or he would come and he would
hug me a little bit too long and tell me
all these people are crazy when I would ask him
why my paycheck got lowered. So anyway, I decided never

(30:40):
to work with this guy again. My friend, who's a guy,
went and worked with him on the next show and
decided to bring on an additional prop person who's a woman.
And this man grabbed my friend and said, you never
bring women on to our crew. I hate working with women. Yeah,

(31:03):
I I, so I decided I never I never wanted
to let anybody make my life miserable for that long again.
And I never wanted to let anybody make me cry again.
And I would never again not stand up for myself
or for anybody else UM who's put in that position.
And I'm grateful to the me to movement. It has

(31:27):
been very triggering. You know, I've experienced all kinds of um,
sexism and uncomfortable situations, so many that I can't even
remember all of them. Um. But uh, but I think
it's time to be strong and to stand up and

(31:50):
stand up for one another. And if you know that
somebody has hurt someone else, don't go work for them,
you know, Um, don't hire them, don't hire them, don't
enable them. Um. But unfortunately, there is a lot of
fear because people want to keep their jobs, people need

(32:12):
to work, people need to you know, feed their kids. Yeah. UM,
we have a lot more to talk about in this
in this conversation, but first we have a quick break
for a word from our sponsor. H we're back, thank

(32:36):
you sponsor. So let's get back to this. It's so
unfortunate that, uh, this is that this is something that
was kind of just accepted and expected for a while.
I'm glad that we're talking about it more, but it's
sort of like this has been going on forever. I
can't believe when people are shocked. I'm like, are you shocked? Really? Um.

(33:00):
But so there's a lot of things that uh in
that in that conversation that I wanted to go back to,
and one is, UM, so you you're both moms working
in this industry. UM, and I am not not a mom,
So I was wondering if you could share what that

(33:21):
has been like. UM, my oldest is ten. I know
Aaron's a newer mom than I am. Um. You know,
women are kind of sold this, the whole myths of
we can do everything and you can't. And I think
if you go in with your eyes open that you
can't do everything, then you'll be much happier. I think

(33:45):
the women who drive themselves crazy are the ones who
try to do everything and then get mad. Um. Like you,
time is a pie, So you can't spend all your
time at work and all your time with your kids.
So if you spend all your time at work, you're
not spending time with your kid. And your kid is

(34:06):
only going to be, you know, three years old in
fifty five days, you know, for that one moment, and
then he's going to be three years old and fifty
six days, you know, So for both you know, I'm
lucky that I have a supportive partner and that we
agreed that one of us would try to stay home.

(34:29):
So this business being freelance. My husband works in reality television. Um,
we try to take jobs with minimal overlap so that
both of us aren't working at the same time and
until the kids are kind of old enough two manage
without us needing to be there all the time, which
probably keep that rhythm. I think it's important. Like there

(34:53):
are job opportunities have had to turn down because I
didn't couldn't be away from the kids. Um, I'm lucky
that'll out of the directing jobs I've gotten have been here.
But like like in a week, I'm on a plane
to Atlanta, I mean to Los Angeles for a week
and a half for another job. Um, So I try
to only take jobs like there's another job that they're like, hey,
this show was really interested in you. But I would

(35:13):
be gone for a month and a half that I
would have to say no to, so I would probably
be I would definitely be much further faster in my
career if I did not have kids. But that's a
swap that I went in with my eyes open knowing
was going to happen. So I have to be okay
with that, and I'm okay with that. I'm still having
a good time. Um, and my kids are you know.

(35:35):
And I think part of it too is this business
is not sustainable if both parents If I in my opinion,
if both parents are working full time and you have
the kids that are young, it just does not work.
Somebody has to be the one who works less or
doesn't work at all to be able to make sure
your kids aren't crazy because either paying even the time now,

(35:58):
or you take the time when they're nineteen and they
have to go to rehab like there's or you know,
or have whatever other problems that they could have because
no one was there making sure that they felt. Um
like all the emotional milestones that are important for kids
or that's what parents need to be there for. All
the educational stuff school can cover whether they get too
plus two, but the emotional milestones are our job. That's

(36:19):
my opinion. Yeah, I agree. Um, any day that I
go to work is a day I do not see
my daughter at all. Um, she's twenties six months old. Um,
so she's just getting into her a little terrible two's,
but you know she is, she's all about mom right now.
And UM, I completely agree with what you said. Like

(36:42):
you can either put in the time now or put
in the time when they're older and you know they
need some help because you know, mom wasn't there, or
both of their parents weren't there. Because I went back
to work when my oldest was six months. Oh yeah,
but my husband was home. Also, It's that's somebody was

(37:03):
home that was familiar, that he had stability and could
look in his eyes and say I'm glad you're here
and make sure that everything was okay. Do I wish
I could have stayed home, Yeah, sure, But I also
really love my job. And I also feel that it's
really important that my kids have both been to set
to see what mom does so they understand that when
I'm going I'm not just going into some like Shelby yucky, horrible.

(37:26):
Like this is a book of mom kicking ass out here,
because you need to understand that this is how we
get you want to PlayStation. This is how we got
the PlayStation. Mom out here kicking ass on set is
how we got to PlayStation. You want to, you know,
go all these fancy places like Mom has to go
to work to do that. You know, So if you
want me to stay home in big cookies, I can,
but not this week but we can do it next week.

(37:49):
You know, we can do that. So they you know,
and they hate it. They're like, oh, you gotta go
to work. They get mad because there is I mean,
even though you know there's gender differences is and how
but there's that's not always according to gender, but there's
differences in how each parent parents and whatever that parent
isn't there, whatever that parent brings is not there. So

(38:10):
it's not that they need their mommy like it's a
female thing as much as it is they need me
because there's specific things that I do that Rob doesn't
and there's things that he does that I don't do. Um,
you know, like they would never you know, make it
to the skateboard park if it was up to me,
because I can't skate, you know, and I don't know
how to show him, and I'd be like, no, you're
gonna cry. So that's like something they do with their dad,

(38:33):
which is awesome, but you know that I'm taking him
to the Puppets show. I don't know that he would
be that nerding out on puppets or you know that
kind of thing or you know, or me like I
bought like a plastic pool and got it so the
little one could jump off the deck into this like
one ft. You know, it's just stupid stuff like that.
So that's why I think it's nice to have both

(38:53):
of us in the mix, but at least, you know,
but one of us guarding the ship until the kids
are kind of old enough to not take care of themselves,
but to only need to check in, I really know
if everything's okay, you know what I mean, Like my
ten year old, if it was if I didn't have
the six year old, I would feel more comfortable with
my ten year old if we had to get like
someone like a nanny that was with him after school,

(39:15):
because I can I can check in with him and
see how he's doing and be okay. But when there's six,
they don't know what's going on, right right, So like
when I got pregnant, I didn't tell anybody. I was
like eight months pregnant. I got a job that I
came in and I literally wore like a baggy shirt
and like scarves and like at the and and it's
funny because I showed it was one was a commercial

(39:37):
I showed up on and they're like, are you pregnant?
And I was like, because for the interview. I showed
up and I like leaned over in the like I
was interested, but it was leaning over to the shirt
with billow and cover it my stomach. And then when
I showed it for the job, I'm like, when you
can't fire me now, right? But in their minds it's like, well, Angela,
what can Angela do or not do? And then they
make the choice for you. So to me, that's what

(40:00):
needs to change. But also I think that comes back
to just being female. Of people are used to what
they're used to. And sometimes it's not overt sexism, like
the guy who says I don't like women on my set.
Sometimes it's subtle because you've never seen a woman first
a d When you do see one, there's something that
doesn't sit right. It's like if you went to take

(40:22):
your car in to get like a major overhaul to
the engine, and like the woman who came out was
you know, was a was a black woman that was
like thirty years old and says, okay, hi, I'm going
to be the one who's going to fix your car.
Everybody for a second would go, wait, you work here?
Are you not the receptionist person here? Because it's not

(40:42):
what they're used to seeing. She could have grown up,
she could be an engineer that builds cars for a living,
and no one would care. In the back of their mind,
the first thing is, wait, this doesn't look like the
big Italian guy with greasy fingers, you know, or what
they're used to sing fixing cars. Right, So once they
get used to seeing it, then they're just used to it.
Then they don't like I don't get as much pushback.

(41:03):
I still get a pushback, don't get me wrong, but
I don't get as much now as I did in
the beginning, where people would assume I was like hair,
I didn't like that came on. I. I mean, not
that that's a problem, but like, why can't I why
why does you when you see a black woman? Why
doesn't mean that I have to be the hair tyonihilist
or a job where they I showed up and thought

(41:24):
I was the choreographer, or it's like and so I'm
always i'd be qut about it. I'm like, so what
about me makes you think that you know that I'm
not the first aid or I'm not the director. I mean,
like the p A He's like, hey are you hair?
And I was like, no, I'm not hair well, I'm sorry,

(41:44):
but this is this is like what what are you?
One of the extras? And I was like, I'm sorry,
what's your name? He goes, what's your name? I was like,
I asked you first. It's like what, it's like why
I asked you? Second? I was like, I'm Angela, I'm
the first dad. What's your name? And he told me
and he had like the worst crappiest lock up, way
way way down the street. And I was like, I

(42:04):
don't want to see you all day, but but what
do you do when that guy is the producer? You
can't do that? Then you don't have no power, you know.
So I think getting more women and people of color
on sets is the first thing that we need to
do so that it's not weird to see a woman
that's directing or a woman that's holding the camera or
I mean, I mean, how many female operators do you now?

(42:27):
Not many? Not many, not many at all? Um female
first deities, not many many, you know, and then when
you get into women of color, it's even fewer. When
you think of women gaffers, I think I've maybe seen
uh and I've seen more in Georgia actually than I've
seen when I was out in l A. But in
terms of female like a gripping electric not many. You know,

(42:50):
women tend to be hair, makeup, wardrobe and and by
the way, makeup artists make more poor hour than hairdressers
because traditionally makeup artist was a man job back in
the day, so their hourly rate is higher, higher rate
because typically that was a male job back and I
did not know it. Yeah, so you have these and

(43:10):
that's when they're talking about trying to make things fair.
It's trying to have script supervisors or is a very
important job at traditionally as a female job, that's a
job that should pay more. If that was a traditionally
male job, it would pay more, right, So it's about
getting people used to seeing what they're not used to
and then they'll go, oh, then it's not about show

(43:32):
me what you know. But even a few months ago,
I mean, I won't say the show, but the producing
director sat me down and says, hey, so you know,
you ever have problems with like people like band's planning
and that kind of thing, and this is why I dude,
and I was like, yeah, you know that happens well,
how do you deal with that? And I said, well, Um,
as a woman, um, I'll get labeled hysterical if I

(43:55):
get yelled, if I yell and scream, and as a
black woman, I'll be labeled the angry black woman. So
I try to usually diffuse it with a few with
humorous usually how I go to it. If it's really egregious,
I'll snap back, but like usually I'll try to say
something to make sure that people understand, like, Hi, I
know that you're here, the I'm the director. It's cool,

(44:15):
Like I know what I was doing, you know whatever.
And he was, oh, good, because you know our our
DP and our first a d UM have a reputation
of being can be a little aggressive with her own agendas,
especially with women directors, So I just wanted to give
you the heads up. And then he proceeds to tell
me a story about how he was with this other
woman director and he told her he should she she
should shoot it a certain way, and she yelled. She

(44:37):
yelled at him, And I'm like, so you're just told
me a story about you man's plaining somebody and her
getting angry, and then you gave me a warning about
your DP and first a d instead of telling them
to stop it, you know. And this is like in
the last six months. So it's it's weird how it's

(45:00):
um it's allowed. Men are allowed, and I'm not saying
that women should be allowed. Like. To me, parody is
not directors crew. To me, parody is me doing a
crappy job and totally crap in the bed on a
directing job and still getting hired back on the show.
That's real parody, you know. But I don't want that.

(45:21):
I want everybody to do a good job. And I
feel that lowering the standards to women to what men
have been allowed to get away with is the wrong
direction I feel, because I mean, I don't want to
be able to pout the same dp that I was
warned about when pout when he wouldn't get his way.
And you know what, grown women can pout in a

(45:46):
position of authority and not be like it's are you crazy?
Like like really, So to me, it's about raising the
overall level of respect in general on sets. But but
first things versus like just getting them getting more more
people on the set in the first place. You know,
you reminded me of something that happened last year, I

(46:08):
was working on a show and I came in as
an additional set deck buyer and the the set decorator
was a woman. Um, the buyer was a woman. We
had a lot of people in there in the office
that day talking, having a meeting, all women. Not intentional,

(46:29):
it was just, you know, we all like working together.
And some guy came in and he you know, he's
not a mean person or anything, but he said, oh am,
I not allowed in this girl party here and he
left and we all said, how many times do we

(46:49):
walk into rooms in this business that are filled with
nothing but men? Do we say anything like that? Does
it even occur to us, like up to a party?
But again, it's because you're you're used to seeing it exactly,
So when people aren't used to seeing it, that's when
there's that's when there's the pushback. But I've had when

(47:10):
I was the first I've had director, I had one
very well known director who I would say, hey, we're behind,
but I think if I slide this scene to this day,
this is a light day. You can go ahead and
you don't have to cut anything, and I think we'll
be fine. I'll go oh wall wait, wait, wait, let's
get the guys over and let's talk about it. Let's
not just make decisions. And then he would call over

(47:32):
the male DP and the male key grip and the
male gaffer and you would have me explain the situation
to them all, and then they would all talk amongst
themselves about what the best choice would and then they
would say, yeah, we should do this, and then he'd
be okay, so we'll do what Mike said. And I
would say, actually, that's that's what I said five minutes ago,

(47:53):
but okay, you know, and I remember one time. This
would happen a lot, and I would always point out
that's what I said, and they would be like, oh, yeah, whatever,
and I didn't care. Is a guest director. He's gonna
be gone in a week anyway. And one time this
grip was standing there and this all went down, and
he looked at me when they walked away, and I
kind of just wanted to myself, and he goes, I've

(48:15):
I've read about that, and he goes, I've had women
friends of mine tell me that these things happen, and
I never believed it. He's like, if I hadn't seen
it with my own eyes, I wouldn't have believed that
that really happened. He's like, that happens all the time.
I'm like, it happens every day, like every day, and
that was probably a few years ago. So like, again,

(48:37):
this face, there's something that's they're not used to taking
direction or information or truth from this face. They have
to get someone to co sign because they're just not
used to it. So the more of us that are
out there doing it and kicking ass, and I feel
like there's a lot of responsibility. Like for me, it
was really hard because I remember being on a set

(49:00):
as a second and overhearing these two producers talking about
how they really wanted this one black woman director, but
this other black women director they had worked with before
didn't really do that great. So they were having they like,
I don't know if we should bring this other one
in there, because I saw them, and I'm in my mind,
I'm thinking, we had like five white dudes come in

(49:22):
and were terrible, but you didn't stop hiring white dudes,
Like not the same woman, mind, you a totally different woman.
And that's stuck in my head. So in my mind,
I was always overprepared, and there's this weight that was
on me of if I screw up, how many other
women of color out there are, and specifically black women
are not going to get the job because like because

(49:44):
of me. So I would go in and I was
so stressed. And then one day I had like this
epiphany of of when I kick ass, they'll never doubt
hiring another black woman. So now I see it as
a as a tool of power of I am the
ambassador of black role magic of you can see what
I am, what you see what I can do. Because

(50:05):
if I've made it to this level of my career
with all the books that I had to put it with,
like I've already proven him to like if you're going
to go, oh, all things being equal, I had to
put up more crap to be equal. So you know
I'm better. And that's most women. Same thing. Like I
knew a white dude that said, I always hire the
women of the person of color if it's it's if
it's a tie, because in order for it to be

(50:26):
a tie, they had to work so much harder to
get there, So it's not a tie anymore. That means
that what's that's what breaks the tie? I love you,
I really do. Every set I have ever been on
with you has been such a well run, efficient, lovely
place to be. I mean that from the bottom of

(50:47):
my heart. I don't like mean people. I know, so
do I handle I handle that early? You do? You do?
But thank you. I'm kind of turning into like you're
You've always been one of my role moles. Now that
I'm a mom, like, I'm starting to get it, starting
to get it and I and I don't put up
with the mean people either. No, but it's funny though,

(51:09):
but I do. That's the tools that you use on
a difficult toddler or a difficult five year old are
the same ones you use on a difficult person. Yes,
it's exactly the same skill set. So I was recently
on a set where one of the actors was very,
very high maintenance. It was very always stopping down production,

(51:29):
always causing problems. And after my first scene with him,
came over to me and he goes, I can tell
you're a good mommy because you just mom the crap
out of that guy. And I did. I have a
special needs six year old, and I used all the
tools and tricks you're supposed to use with kids who
may have like some difficulty in processing information. And I
used all of that stuff. I reflected things back to him.
I made sure that like when he would when he

(51:51):
does this, you do this, you mirror them. There's things
you can do to make people know that you're on
their side and that they have power. And that's and
and I also say, like, and I don't know if
you guys have to bleep this, but like part of
like when there's a dick swinging contest, like I don't
have a dick, so you win, so let's so let's
do what I said. You win, but let's go ahead

(52:12):
and do what I said, okay, And so then they
feel like they've won because there's there was no me
going no, but you you know, we gotta do it
matter way. I'd be like, oh and I just Jedi
mind trick mom them to death. And then they go, okay,
that's fine. Oh it kind of it kind of made
me think, like I'm having all these flashbacks of carrying
a heavy furniture across the set and some dude running

(52:37):
over and literally taking the couch or the you know,
dresser out of your hands, out of my hands, and
the thing falls over. I had it perfectly balanced with
this other woman that I am carrying it with, you know,
and let thanks a lot. Thanks. Now it's on the ground,
Um that that's that's not just that's not sexism as

(53:01):
much as is like southernerism, you know what I'm saying. Yeah,
And it's like I understand the intention behind it, but
started yes, yes, the men that do it actually are
coming from a good place. And I also don't want
to get that confused though with um, I'm a very
safety conscious person. But no matter what, I still stand

(53:21):
up even if I'm annoying, even if I you know,
it holds up production for a second. Like, these things
need to be talked about, and I don't think that
women should be disrespected for standing up. We gotta take
care of each other, have to. We have some more
for you listeners, but first we have one more quick

(53:43):
break for word from our sponsor M and we're back.
Thank you sponsor. Let's get back to the discussion. So
I feel like we could we could go on and
on and on forever, but in the because it can't, Yeah,

(54:06):
for time, I like to try to wrap these things
up with what are some positive things that you're seeing are?
What are things that you think actions we could take
two to improve the industry for everybody. I know we've
already touched on getting more representation. UM, but I think

(54:30):
things like that. UM. Well, I will say this, UM,
even though I've had a baby and everybody knows I'm home,
I get multiple calls every week from from men that
I've worked for in the set dressing department, lead men, UM,
set decorators, prop masters, and they don't care that I

(54:57):
had a baby. They still want me back and they
keep trying. And that makes me feel really good. And UH,
I do want to say, I think the majority of
the people that I've worked for in Atlanta, the majority
of the men are really amazing people and very supportive.
In fact, I have one that wants to hire me
to come out and do some set dressing and have

(55:19):
me work eight hour days and UM just wants to
have me come out so that I can keep my
health insurance going, you know. So I just want to say, like,
I think that there are some very enlightened, empowering men
here and I, UM, I hope that that there's that

(55:42):
the example that they are setting UM is contagious and UM,
and I really appreciate the fact that that people are
starting to really recognize that we need to support women
intersectionally in this business, in all businesses, in this country,

(56:07):
in the world right now. And we cannot just talk
about white women. We can't. We have to talk about
women of color. We have to talk about trans women,
we have to talk about gay women, all women. We
have to talk about agesm we have to talk about uh,

(56:27):
women with disability. It's not just white women. It's so
much more than that. Yeah, yeah, for sure. What about you, Angela,
do you have any um I've seen some interesting things
where um. Job sharing is something that I've seen happened.

(56:50):
UM that basically like if it's a second second that
they alternate episodes of its episode episode of TV show
and they'll get a waiver so that they don't have
to pay. Like if you once you your last day
of work, you're supposed to get like an extra check basically,
so that way there they don't keep getting last days

(57:10):
every time they alternate, you know, UM, or you know
job sharing like that, like when you know you're gonna
have long days, is you bring somebody in and they
their minimum is a bare minimum, so you use somebody
for so many days and somebody else for so many
days so that they have one job that's consistent, but
they're not working full time. Full time. I think a
lot of the access programs UM, some are better than others,

(57:33):
but they have been good about UM bringing people in
UM just to meet some new faces, you know. I
think UM a lot of episodic shows, in particular Features
is going a little slower, but UM are doing are
intentionally trying to look for female directors UM a little bit.
What's happening as all the ones who are already working

(57:55):
are just working a lot more now, so, but they're
being better about bringing in new voices and new people. Unfortunately,
sometimes it's being made a scapegoat. So like if you
have twelve episodes, is something producers will tell the guy
they didn't hire, Oh, well, we had to hold these
two slots for women, and so in their mind, a
woman took their job, when really the eight guys that

(58:17):
got the episodes, they should have just been better than
them and they would have got the job. So there's
a lot of kind of blaming, like, you know, oh,
that person is the reason you're not working, when that's
not like diversity is not taking your job. It's it's
not so, but I you know, slowly but surely from

(58:38):
what I've seen, Atlanta's Atlantis sets tend to be more
diverse in general. But even when I go back to
l A two shows, I'm seeing a lot more. And
then like on the screen, like I went, I did
an episode of One Day at a Time and it
was like beautiful because I'm used to seeing shows when
it's like about people of color. The people behind the

(58:59):
scenes often like I'm sorry, like we talked to Oscars,
like last night with Green Book, like center stage was
all the white dudes. Octavia Spencer was way over here
as one of the producers and they only mentioned her
way at the end. You know what I'm saying, Like
that seems to be the pattern and telling the stories
of people of color, like One Day at a Time
was a great show because it was all there was

(59:21):
Latinos writers and producers as well as lgbt Q writers
and producers on the show to write the stories about
this quan American in l A and her gay daughter
and the traditional mom and the sun and like it's
nice to see that um and not just be you know,
a bunch of white dudes from Harvard rite up. You know, Yeah,

(59:42):
what's what's really going on? But yeah, it's I've been
having a good I've been having a good time. And
go see the movies that are directed by women of color,
you know, go see the movies that are that are
directed by um people in the LGBTQ community. Um, God,
when I when I think about how many movies I

(01:00:04):
grew up, seeing that we're just like so male dominated,
it makes me sick. I'm even you know, I'm going
back and even listening to a lot of the bands
I used to listen to, and I'm like Jesus Christ,
it's a bunch of blape dudes. But you know, sorry,
but um, let me get a sip of tea here. No,

(01:00:26):
but I think part of it is, again, was what
are you used to? I think when people get used
to seeing like Wonder Woman was a big deal, so
that Captain Marvel isn't as much of a big deal,
and then eventually it's not a deal at all, you
know what I'm saying. Yes, so when we the nostalgia
of oh my god, sixteen Candles was such a great movie,
and then you watch it again and are horrified at

(01:00:47):
how awful sexist and racist and and like rape the
whole totally rad is and Jake Ryan's a dick. He's
not an ideal guy, you know, like who like when
you're you know, but that's what you're used to seeing.
That was something that's normal. So as there's a new
normal is introduced and as people are enforcing the new normal, Um,

(01:01:07):
to me, that makes it a little easier for for
us chicks to get ahead. You know. Yeah, we've done
an episode after episode after episode where um, the studies
have shown that seeing yourself represented really impacts the things
that you think that you can do. And so, like
you're saying, getting more people working on that set, and
then younger people can see that and think that that

(01:01:31):
is an option for them as well, instead of like
it's just closed off. I've never seen someone who looks
like me that does that. Um, it's a big deal.
So and it may not even be conscious. It's women
who go to film school who don't even try to
become directors because they don't see they got it's going
to be too That fight is a harder fight than

(01:01:51):
I think I'm able to do, you know what I mean.
And honestly, that's why I didn't go into being a
director right away the same hardly because of that. I was,
you know, I in my family the arts, My arts
careers were kind of shunned as like, look what happens
to everybody in our family who's an artist is they're
all broken they you know they did My dad worked

(01:02:11):
for I you know, worked for a business, and you
know I should be a lawyer if something, or in office.
You know. Um. So now that it's I don't know,
now that the new normal is becoming the new normal,
it's it's getting a little bit better, I think. Yeah.
Um So, I just want to thank you both so

(01:02:33):
much for being here. Um, is there anything else you
want to touch on before we wrap up? By no time? Is?
Uh no? Black ro magic, black girl magic, um, intersectional
gender equality. We're just saying phrases. Now. Where can listeners

(01:02:58):
find you? Oh? Um, I'm on Instagram. Love Angela comes.
I am don't technically have Twitter is the same thing.
Love Angela goms, but I don't ever tweet anything. I
always just post pictures, um, and then I am dB
is where they can find the kind of stuff I've
been working on. So I just did some American soul

(01:03:19):
and did alegacies and did ambitions and I'm about to
go to Field the reunion for Netflix, which will be fun.
So um so yeah that's my stuff. Um well, my
IMDb desperately needs to be updated, and um you can't
really find me anywhere unless you're my friend on Facebook

(01:03:41):
or Instagram, because I'm kind of weird about people looking
at my kid that, um I don't know her. I
think that's pretty legit. People don't care though, um uh,
but you can probably find some videos of me playing

(01:04:02):
the drums out there somewhere. But you can find me
in my kids preschool classroom as a classroom mom supporter
p T A C type. I'll be back, so oh
yes I will. Yeah, I'm sure you will. You're you're

(01:04:23):
both doing amazing work. Eppisode thrilled that you came in,
um and listeners. You should totally keep an eye out
for the work that they do in the future and
in the meantime. If you like the email as, you
can our email as mom Stuff at how stuffworks dot com.
You can also find us on Twitter at mom Stuff
Podcast and on Instagram at stuff Mom Never Told You.
Thanks as always to our producer Andrew Howard, and thanks

(01:04:45):
to you for listening