November 6, 2013 • 41 mins
Why are fewer women than ever before pursuing computer science degrees? Lauren Vogelbaum of TechStuff stops by the show to discuss the tech industry's gender gap and whether the "brogrammer" culture is a sexist reality.
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
Welcome to Stuff Mom Never told You from housetupp Works
dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Kristen,
and I'm Caroline and I'm Laura. That's right, everybody, for
this second installment of our Women in Stem series that
we're doing. This is the technology episode in Caroline and
(00:26):
I are thrilled to have on. Lauren vogel Baum, co
host of the House up Works podcasts Plural Tech Stuff
and for thinking that is entirely correct. Lauren, thanks so
much for coming on. You're so welcome. Thank you for
having me here. Well, we've got a lot of stuff
to talk about with women in tech because the situation
(00:46):
is a little bleak. Yeah, we've got some sad stories
for you. We do have some sad stories, but some
happy stories. Yeah, Because if we look at women in
tech going back to the sixties, it started all right,
even even back to the forties. Yeah, I mean some
of those some of the first computer programmers who were
working on the big old mechanical punch tape machines were women.
(01:10):
They're a group of six of them are trying to
get together and make a documentary about their experience because
their story really hasn't been told. And you know, programming
at the time was was considered akin to clerical work. Um,
it was considered a really a really promising field for
women to be in. There was this really great quote
from from one Grace Hopper, who will talk more about
in a moment in Cosmo around saying that programming is
(01:33):
just like planning a dinner. You have to plan ahead
and schedule everything so that's ready when you need it.
Women are naturals at computer programming. Did you know that, Caroline, Well,
there you go. No, I took like a coding class,
and I would not have thought to compare it to
dinner to making a dinner. But then again, when is
the last time that I ever planned a dinner party?
So I was about to say, I'm completely terrified of
(01:55):
making dinner and coding both, So I'm not really sure.
I mean, maybe maybe it's accurate. I would, Well, ladies,
I'm pretty good at making a cast role, so maybe
I should transition into coding. We will come over and
you can cook for us and we will code together. Perfect. Yeah,
it'll be like a like a knitting group, except with
way more computers. Well did we mention though, that that
(02:17):
Grace Hopper quote about planning dinner actually came out of
none other than Cosmopolitan magazine in nineteen sixties seven because
moving out of the forties, obviously, um, when you know,
we have these six women who are working on the eniac.
But by the nineteen sixties, computers are really starting to
become more of uh their own industry. They're actually fields
(02:41):
developing around that. And there was this article in Cosmo
about the quote unquote computer girls, because at the time
it was thought that, yeah, this low level quote unquote
clerical work would be great for women. That seems like
a missed Halloween costume opportunity computer girls. So in the
nineteen sixties, So could you say, Lauren that Grace Hopper
(03:06):
at the time was kind of like a Cheryl Sandberg
or Marissa Meyer of her day. She was one of
the leading women, a role model for other women in computing.
She absolutely was. And I should mention that Grace Hopper,
that's Rear Admiral doctor Grace Murray Hopper to you, um,
because not not only a doctorate in mathematics, but also
(03:27):
in the Navy, rose to the rank of rear admiral
by the end of her career. You know, she was
the third person to work on programming um the the
Mark one, the Harvard Mark one computer in the nineteen
forties at Harvard's Craft Laboratory, which was I mean it
was essentially a pocket calculator, but a fifty one foot
pocket calculator, and it was really one of the first
(03:47):
machines that could do that kind of calculation automatically. So
it was a big deal. And a few years later,
when electronic computers began replacing the mechanical punch tape sorts
of things, she was on the team that developed the
binary code compiler, and and compilers are a little bit
like a translation program for computers. They help a computer
(04:07):
and a person interacting with it. You know, it's a
lot easier for for the programmer to write in a
language that isn't directly accessible to the computer, and so
that compilers is helping translate. It's the basis for modern computing. Yeah,
when I was reading about this, it sounds like such
a basic principle of computing today. But at the time,
(04:29):
Hopper has said that people's minds were so blown by
the very notion that a computer could do this that
when she would talk about making this compiler. People wouldn't
believe her. Yeah. Yeah, they were like, they were like, no, never, never,
that will never happen. How could you possibly talk about
that kind of thing? You know, it reminds me of
of stories about it all Lovelace And when Charles Babbage,
this was way way back in the eight hundreds, I believe,
(04:51):
he was talking to her about this idea that he
had for an analytical machine, and she said, you know,
that could do more than just than just computations or calculations.
You could use math to talk to the computer and
have it talked to you back in text or in
pictures or in music. And everyone was like how just
you know, like if I could insert a graphic of
a giant explosion, that would be what I would put
(05:13):
right here. She was blowing people's minds because I mean,
you know, women back then, they didn't think thoughts like that.
Come on, and then certainly not mathematical thoughts, because everyone
knows that girls are bad at math, right exactly, But
they are good at low level clerical work, which is
why they were the first programmers. Yeah, until it became
(05:35):
more masculinized. Yeah, supposedly this and and this this quote
that we've been talking about from that Cosmo article is
um from a really great piece published by Brenda D.
Frank through Stanford University's Claim and Institute for Gender Research. UM.
And it's in the article she's describing how male programmers
at the time we're seeking to increase the prestige of
(05:56):
the industry a k a. To defeminize it um, which cheery. Um,
you know, I mean this was also and some of
the examples that I've read from the time are just
so mad menesque that I can't even believe that it's
a thing that really existed. Um. Not that mad Men is,
I mean, you know, not a completely inaccurate, but still
it's just so weird to me. Yeah, that that men
(06:17):
in the in the programming field started shutting women out
by by putting in educational requirements, um, using mail networks
to advertise jobs like frats and lodges stuff like that
that women wouldn't be a part of and uh, and
using personality tests that described programmers as disinterested in people
and disliking activities involving close personal interaction. And hence we
(06:40):
have the stereotype of the antisocial male computer programmer who
doesn't get out of his basement often, right, But I
mean it sounds like an incredibly literal, clear linear direct
uh predecessor to the culture that we're going to talk
about in a little bit as far as programmer things
like that. Just the overall kind of taking away the
(07:04):
welcome mat for women. Yeah, And it's unfortunate because today
so much of a conversation and the emphasis in tech
that you hear over and over and over again and
not just in women only circles, is how to get
that welcome back back? Right? Yeah? Um, so what do
what do the statistics look like though? In terms of
(07:27):
women who are pursuing computer science, Well, it starts out
not so bad in high school, I would think, I mean,
people talk about this pipeline of women in tech and computing,
and that the pipeline leads you from you know, middle school,
high school all the way through grad school and then
it has leaks, and so it starts out not so bad.
Umi of AP calculus test takers were female in It's
(07:53):
not quite as great for the computer science classes though. Yeah.
Compared to calculus, only nineteen percent of AP computer science
test takers were women in two thousand eleven. And yeah,
I'm gonna be honest, an AP computer science test sounds
(08:13):
terrifying to me. Well, but also, I mean, I think
that has a lot to do with the fact that,
like I, you know, personally, I didn't grow up even
thinking math or science was an option. Yeah, I mean,
it didn't. It didn't appeal to me. It didn't make
sense to me. I was always word driven. But that's
also kind of the direction that I was sort of push. Yeah. Yeah,
(08:33):
I feel like even from elementary school, and I'm sure
that you guys have talked about statistics surrounding this, also
that that that girls are are encouraged towards language driven
things in a way from science driven driven things most
of the time. I mean, I certainly, you know, like
all of my test scores were about even on math
and language. But until I started getting like further on
in high school and language went but chaw. So, I mean,
(08:55):
you know, I should say that I'm not I'm not
a programmer, you know, I'm a I'm a tech journalist.
But that's certainly not being directly involved in the tech industry. Well,
speaking of being directly involved in the tech industry, it's
also fascinating to see the erosion of the number of
women in college who are not just expressing interest at
(09:17):
the outset of wanting to go onto computer science, but
of the women who actually stick with it and complete
that computer science degree. Because in the mid eighties there
were a fair number of us who were doing that.
Thirty seven percent of computer science undergrads were women, and
we actually peaked in computer science academia in the nineteen eighties.
(09:39):
Coincidence that that's around the time that The Wizard came
out and War Games starring Ali Sheey that's right, Fred Savage?
Uh and what's her name for Rilokaili was in was
in that movie with Fred Savage? Anyway, I did um.
But Yeah, it's crazy that, like the numbers were, Okay,
thirty seven percent is not percent, but it's still not
(10:01):
too shabby considering Yeah, as of it was only eight percent.
And if we are just looking at interest in majoring
in comps I, there is a seventy nine percent decline
from two thousand to two thousand and eleven. It's crazy
what happened. Yeah, I is serious. Well, and how that
(10:24):
translates into actually jobby job land if we look at
the career landscape, obviously it's going to be dominated by
dudes because of that. Yeah, only about a quarter of
professional computing occupations were held by women in the US,
and that is down from thirty six percent in And
(10:44):
if you look at high powered positions, only of chief
information officer positions at Fortune to fifty companies were held
by women in and just to get a sense of
the job breakdown within the industry, two and five developers
are women, but seventy percent of software developers are men.
(11:05):
And then there's this other issue that we'll talk about
a little bit more in terms of startups because as
of two thousand and ten, only six percent of venture
capital back startups were headed by women. And then again
not to make this the most suppressing podcast ever, but
even okay, for women who have gone to college, they
(11:27):
made it through their classes, maybe being the only female,
they got their computer science degree, they got their computer job,
and then we have the retention problem. Yeah, it seems
like what I what I was reading about these retention issues,
it seems like women are kind of suffering silently, maybe
in these kind of unwelcoming male dominated cultures, and then
(11:50):
leaving kind of quickly or maybe even not so silently
these days with blogs, I've read a lot of really
angry blog posts from women who are just going like,
I'm fed up with this, never mind, never mind, I'm out. Yeah.
And as a result, the Anita Borg Institute found that
the cumulative quit rates of women in technology is more
than double that of men. And when they look at
(12:12):
the primary challenges that Anita Borg highlights, it's very similar
to other issues that echo throughout STEM fields, such as
lack of opportunities for recognition and advancement, challenges of work
life demands, um isolation, and unconscious biases that women may
be experiencing in more male dominated workplaces. So we're gonna
(12:37):
dig though more into those issues, tease them apart, see
whether or not these direct factors really are leading to
this pipeline problem for women in tech. When we come
right back from a quick break, Okay, so we told
you that we were going to get into some of
the culture and the reasoning behind this, the steep decline
(12:57):
in women's interest and participation in the tech fields. People
keep tossing this term around and it is programmer programming.
What does a programmer have to do with women? So
there's this perception that that programmers these days are kind
of stuck in the college mentality of like, yeah, we're
(13:18):
going to get some beer and some ladies and hang
out on couches and do all our programming there. And
I mean, you know, not helped by the fact that like,
what was that line the Cloud put out at some
point for for hiring, It was terrific, want to brow
down and crush some code, bro. I can't even that's
not even a thing that I can respond to. So
(13:40):
Kamashki Savarma Christian, who was the first female engineer at
the mobile ads startup ad Mob, told Business Week that quote,
the frat boy mentality among engineering men is a little
more pronounced in the startup world than in the more
mature organizations. So is it just is it a startup thing?
(14:00):
Is it just tech are we? Or is the programmer stereotype? Lauren?
Do you think it's just overblown? Maybe? Well, I think
it's more for for the younger startup generation than for
the older I mean, I don't think that you're going
to encounter that if you go to like Yahoo or something,
But but for certainly smaller companies where part of the
appeal is that you can be you know, that you
(14:22):
can dress casually and that you can be more yourself,
that you can have silly stuff in your office, and
that you don't have to be so buttoned down and
part of that in these very dude oriented offices, you know,
which there's nothing particularly wrong with if if a guy
starts a company and hires people and they happen to
be guys, but you know, just people have to be
aware of the fact that they might be making that
(14:43):
environment unwelcoming to people who are not exactly like them.
And and I do, I do think that it gets
overblown in the media because programmer is such a great
silly word to put up in a headline. And but
I don't I don't think it's just like dudes hiring dudes.
I mean, I also think there have been some pretty
like hor thickly stupid things that we've seen pop up
in the media that these male programming tech you know,
(15:07):
app developing software developing guys have said, and not just
like in the bathroom to themselves, I mean they've they've
said it like, you know, on stage. Yeah, I think
you're probably referring to an incident that happened at south
By Southwest Interactive a couple of years back, in a
presentation that was being given by this guy named Matt
(15:27):
Van Horne, Is this what you're referring to, Caroline, That
is what I'm referring to. And he even like before
he gives his presentation, apologizes for like, hey, guys, I'm sorry,
I'm gonna be sexist here. Here it goes. Well, it's terrific.
I love it. Whenever anyone says that that's great. Yeah,
he speaks against having a certain style of interview where
an entire committee like gangs up on a person, and
(15:50):
he calls that a gang bang interview. And and not
only that, he he talks about getting a job at
dig by sending bikini shots from a callender a hotty
calendar that he had made. Right, well, all right, I'll
give it to Van Horn that he did apologize profusely,
of course after this happened, because there were women getting
(16:13):
up from this presentation actively tweeting it, live tweeting the
entire thing and leaving, and so of course he, you know,
he puts his tail between his legs and apologizes. But
I do think that maybe this programmer culture is reflective
of a larger thing that we do see with startups
(16:34):
where it's not just a job, it's a lifestyle. You
go to the Google complex and they have food, they
have laundry, they have childcare. You go to Facebook here
expected to be there all night. That's something that Cheryl
Sandbury actually talks about in lean In, where she had
to kind of mentally get over the fact that she
wasn't gonna be what was it growing down and crushing
(16:57):
code all night with the guys, because it's just it's
physically impossible when you're you know, when you have a family, exactly. Yeah,
and so you when you do have a lot of
younger people guy or girl who might not have families,
maybe there's more leeway for a beer guzzling, you know,
this pumping. And you know, I've worked at a startup
(17:19):
that it was a marketing startup that had a beer fridge,
and you know, after five o'clock it was like beer
fridges open, have some beers, and you know, and no
one like got crazy, Like we weren't browing down, I
don't think, but I would love to see you try
to brow down. But Gina Trapani, who's a webin mobile
app developer, says that the whole programmer thing, Like you said,
(17:39):
it is a joke. Maybe it's not like an ingrained
culture that every single guy programmer lives and breathes. But
she says that it's a useful one to lend language
to a persistent issue of tech companies with overwhelmingly male staff.
She says basically that it helps women decide we're not
to work And I think, I mean, that's that's good
and that's horrible all the same time, because is that
(18:01):
not just contributing to a decline in women's numbers at
a lot of companies? Sure, yeah, I mean, you know,
I also think that it's just like just like any
company policy, you're going to have companies that you do
and don't want to work for. And it totally sucks.
Don't get me wrong that there's this gender divide that's
forcing part of this issue here, But you know, it's
not isolated to just sexism. Yeah, and I do think
(18:23):
that it's it's a good point to remember that sexist
comments and inappropriate behavior are by no means limited to
Silicon Valley. It might we might hear more about it
because the people who are hearing it are maybe more
wired and more apt to live tweeted, and in a
startup culture, maybe you feel more empowered to raise your
(18:46):
hand and say that's not okay, rather than if you
are a tiny cog at the bottom of a very
large org chart. So I do think there is some
caution that needs to be taken though with portraying the
tech industry is too bleak, because it's like if we
take it in the other direction, then and we only
hear terrible things, and that's not going to get girls
(19:08):
and women involved in it. Um, But the visibility factor
is so much there for guys because the stereotype of
computers is nerds who we see on TV. In the
social network, we're seeing guys at the forefront and girls
sort of his set dressings every now and then. And um,
(19:28):
this is sort of a side note, but I was
reading about something called the c s I effect a
couple of days ago, which is how it's a theory
at least on how the popularity of shows like c
s I has led to a real world surge in
women in forensics. Of all the stem fields, women dominate
forensics across the board. And there was an article in
(19:49):
New York Times a couple of weeks ago asking whether
or not computer science could use its own c s
I effect to maybe see more like cool women doing
cool things with cool computers, so that girls have that
visibility to change that stereotype, move it away from the
pro grammar, which clearly is trying to overcorrect for the
(20:12):
former stereotype of the antisocial guy who can't leave his basement,
and bring more women into the pop cultural computer full yeah.
And and there are a few examples of that in
in pretty popular TV. I mean, um, the show the
show Bones has Angelo, who is an artist and a
computer scientist who you know, granted, is also incredibly pretty
(20:34):
and doing her thing like in mini skirts. But that's
I guess what you do on television when you're in
the sciences, you know, going going back to your hero.
We all, we all love you, Lieutenant and hera and
I think that right now, and this is a larger
problem with television. They'll have to be incredibly pretty and
kind of niche nerd at the same time. Like you
can't just be a girl who's on a computer. You
(20:55):
have to be a geek girl. And that's another separate
thing that I'm sure you guys have discussed on the
show at some point we have not done episode. Well,
I almost don't even want to touch it because it's
so it's so tricky and button Yeah. Yeah, but I
feel like even in the real world, for the visible
(21:15):
mentors that we see, the Marrissa Myers and Ryl Sandberg's, etcetera,
it's still a very constructed and careful image that they
have to maintain. Oh yeah, it's such I feel like
it's insanely tricky territory that, you know, they have to
not downplay their femininity because that would be some kind
of crime against femaleness if they weren't somehow you know,
(21:39):
projecting that, but at the same time have to show
that they can be this power player and I don't know,
it's it's it's weird and terribly unfair. Yeah, it's almost
like they have to put on some sort of like
official feminine woman uniform to even enter the room, you know,
to to climb that tech ladder. It's like they won't
just accept. It's like you have to try so hard,
(22:01):
even harder than a man, maybe not only in your work,
but in your appearance and your wardrobe, in the things
you say and how you say them right well, and
on top of that too, there's this added burden not
only of the appearance, but also I have some sympathy
for these incredibly successful women who really don't need my
sympathy at all, but for the fact that since women
(22:23):
in tech is such a high profile issue right now,
I feel like they're almost bearing up the mantle of
all women and girls in tech and maybe even STEM
in general. So and I feel like with Marissa Meyer
in particular, the Yahoo CEO, that she's very uncomfortable with that,
that she just wants to do her job and do
(22:44):
it well. Yeah, she says all the time, like like,
I'm not a girl geek. I'm a geek. Can we
stop asking me questions about women and me giving birth
because that's not my job. Yeah. But at the same
time though, too, it's like, well, Marissa Meyer, you're coming
up at this time, and I feel a sympathy, But
at the same time it's with great power comes great responsibility. Yeah,
(23:06):
She's She's also said that she hasn't personally felt discriminated
against as a woman in that sector, and she's certainly
not the only person saying that. Um I had one word,
small story Before we move on to some of these
other really big names in tech leadership. UM. There was
a really great blog post that came out just this
month October by a programmer named Meredith Patterson who was
(23:28):
talking about how she's never experienced this this new girls
allowed kind of vibe in programming, and also talks about
how that may be due to the fact that she
has autism and and that that's you know, a separate
but related personality factor of of not always cluing in
on subtle social circumstances. UM. But you know that she
hates the assumption that all women have a bad experience
(23:50):
in tech because that's not her experience. I think that overall,
painting it as completely terrible or completely okay is is
harmful either way. Yeah, and there also stories on the
smaller scale too of women who might have been dissatisfied
with what was going on, but they're the exciting thing
about being in tech, And I feel as even as
(24:10):
someone who is not coding necessarily but involved in new
media UM, is that the field is so open for
you to make what you want to make. Kind of
in the instance of the women who founded skill Crush, Caroline,
I know that you've taken some skill Crush courses I did,
and it was actually a fantastic experience coming. You know,
(24:32):
I had no I had no experience in this area
at all, and so taking skill Crush classes it's like
such a you feel like you've walked into your best
friend's apartment and all of your mutual friends are over
and you're just like, hey, ladies, ladies on a couch
with beer. Perfect. No, but it's great because um, and
(24:52):
you know, not that I'm trying to make this into
an advertisement for skill Crush, you know, but the it's
like it's so obvious from the minute you sign up,
the minute you pay them that you have a complete
and total, open and honest and thoughtful support group of
women and some guys. There's some guys taking those classes.
But um, I just feel like that's so important because
(25:15):
I there there were some some weeks where it all tough,
got little tough, there were some tough lessons, and I
think I would have just said to heck with it
if there hadn't been those awesome women. Because the woman
who founded it, Ada or Adam, I'm sorry, Uh, you
know she's she's in the videos teaching you how to code.
She is this brainiac behind all of this coding stuff,
(25:38):
and there she is in her like cute little outfit
and you know, rocking some code and and so it was.
It was really comforting and kind of awesome. And it's
specifically designed right to teach women in particular code, not
that they exclude dudes, but it's geared specifically towards the
young professional woman who thinks that she's too busy to
(26:01):
learn how to code, but she can. That's amazing. And
especially yeah, I mean, you know, just having having those
role models was so important. Yeah, it's so important for
at least striving towards some kind of parody too, so
that we have more than Maurice and me Er Cheryl
Sandberg and some other exceptions to the rule to talk about.
(26:22):
Because even at the top top tiers of US companies,
at least, the numbers of women in leadership roles tech
wise are also down in accordance with the numbers that
are down for women who are even studying computer science. Yeah,
if we look at UH chief information officers, that's down
to nine percent in from twelve percent in two. It
(26:46):
seems to be pretty steadily declining from just a few
to even fewer and one poll, thirty of four hundred
and fifty American tech executives said that their I T
groups have no women in management agreed that women were underrepresented. Yeah,
(27:07):
and Tara Hunt, who's the CEO of a company called Biosphere,
told Forbes that the more women we see in high
profile technical roles at these companies, the more young women
will be inspired to pursue a career in technology. And
that visibility issue is something that comes up over and
over in not just tech, but in other stem fields
(27:27):
because I do think I think all of our experiences
speak to the power of actually seeing or in our
cases maybe not so much seeing women in these kinds
of jobs. And another kind of factor in why we
need more women in this field is because the very
simple concept of like hiring like um, if we look
(27:50):
at venture capital firms people giving funding to startups, venture
capitalists are men, and so you know, I'm not saying
that a man won't fund a woman's venture or vice versa.
But what I'm saying is that inherent biases do exist.
And so if it is this old boys club and
(28:11):
men are helping their their bros out, you know, maybe
it's time to get some more women in these fields
to help each other and and to help men too.
I'm not trying to exclude anything, sure, yeah, but yeah,
but it's still that kind of that thing that started
way back in the in the sixties of of you know,
being kind of driven by these connections that men make
in these professional organizations that women can't get into. Yeah,
(28:32):
there's after hours networking, and then there's also two when
it comes to venture capital and startups, this factor of
risk taking. I think this was something Caroline we talked
about in our episode on Instagram where those guys were
so successful because a lot of times it's a hallmark
of dudes who are really into startup where they're also
really into risk taking and you're probably gonna try a
(28:54):
lot of different things and you're moving a lot of
money around. And I think that women can also help
themselves too by being braver to take on those risks.
And speaking of venture capital, and this is a bit tangential,
but not too long ago, there was a huge internet
(29:14):
fallout when the guy who found a dead spin whose
name I am forgetting right now, announced very publicly that
he had raised five million dollars in venture capital to
start a website for women called Bustle dot com, oh
that whole thing. Yeah, And he was so proud of himself,
and he was obviously a business guy, and I think
(29:35):
that he was earnest and really wanting to start this
and everyone, every woman I think he was contributed to
any kind of women's media threw up her hands. But
he whin got the money though. At the end of
the day, he went and got the money. And that
means that there is five million dollars plus out there
(29:55):
looking for a female audience. Why did it have to
be a guy who sold the idea, lady or I
think all three of us just have our hands up
with each other because I could use some five million bucks.
I don't know about you, Yeah, but I wonder though
if he was I mean, definitely his business legacy with
dead Spin, which became very profitable, gave him credibility for
(30:16):
seeking out this venture capital. But when you look at
who funded it, it was a lot of other guys.
And so you do wonder though, that if all three
of us went to go pitch our lady fantastic web empire,
if we would have as much success. I just wonder
because it would be harder to find a woman to
(30:36):
fund us. You know, yeah, we we'd have to start
out by making this million dollar business and then but
how do you how do you do that when you're
a lady in a field that doesn't really want you
to exactly, well, we're going to start a PayPal account.
But again, that's why it is good that we do
have the Cheryl Sandberg's, the Marissa Myers is paving the
(30:58):
way who are for an now maybe taking on the mantle.
Although you know, they do have to deal with a
lot of criticism, but the good news is is that
it isn't always focused on their gender. Right. Yeah, you'll
see Mers and Myer catching flak when she poses in
(31:18):
what magazine was It was at Vogue? It was Vogue? Yeah, um,
kind of kind of sexy it up, um, as though
she cannot be a CEO and also a woman who
is a sexy lady. Um. But I think most of
the criticism against you know, Cheryl Sandberg or uh Jenny Rometti,
who's the CEO of IBM, people like that is more
(31:38):
that they're mismanaging their companies in specific ways that aren't gendered.
It's kind of comforting to me that people can criticize
these women as CEOs and not have to mention the
fact that ps they have lady bits in every single
news article. I mean, you know, they always say woman
and ceo and well, you know, but that's the way
that our language is structured. So it's kind of okay. Um,
(32:00):
specifically with Cheryl Sandberg, I was really comforted when criticism
of Lenin came in and a lot of it was
about classism instead of sexism. I thought that was I mean,
it's still it's terrible to classism like that was happening.
But I was like, well, this is a wonderful world
we're living in. No one is saying like, shut that
lady up. They were saying like shut that rich lady up,
(32:20):
which is a whole different issue exactly. I mean, just
the fact that she has the liberty to talk about
the ins and outs of Facebook and Google too, of
how it was, how it was for her sort of
learning the ropes as a woman, as a wife, as
a mother in there. I think you're right. Definitely speaks
to um maybe some progress that's being made. And I
(32:44):
noticed with Apple's recent higher of the former Barberry CEO
Angela Lawrence, seemed controversy free, which was surprising to see
in tech, but especially for women in tech getting big jobs.
But I do wonder if it went so smoothly because
she was hired on to oversee both online and in
(33:06):
store retail, and which is a more lady business exactly
because ladies shop. You guys be shopping. We love shopping exactly,
all of us choose, shoose, choose period and maybe a
Berbery trench, Oh I wish. But yeah, she she became
the one woman among Apple's top ten senior executives. So
(33:29):
at least she is there. And you know, you do
have the case of like Julie Larson Green, who was
recently hired on to be the head of Xbox. You know,
she's in charge of all of the hardware, the games,
the music, the entertainment. And some of the comments that
were being made just they're not good human comments to
make about humans. Well we haven't even gotten into gaming. Yeah,
(33:52):
gaming is a whole separate issue. Back when we were
talking numbers of programmers, and they were pretty dire, you know,
like down into the into the teens, three of programmers
of games or women and and and they and they
make you know, like ten thousand dollars less on average
than their male counterparts, which I think is a higher
percentage than than another in other industries, which is ludicrous
(34:15):
and ridiculous until you start looking at the kind of
games that that most developers are making, and the female
characters that most games include, and just the general gamer culture.
If you guys want me to come back and rant
a lot about gaming culture, I can do that thing. Yeah,
you haven open invitation for sure, because I know that
(34:36):
we have a lot of gamers among our listeners and women,
and gaming has been a requested topic. So it's definitely
something we should spend an entire episode on because there's
so much there to talk about. It's a very pointy topic.
I'm kind of I just said that. Now I'm like,
maybe I can change my name and move to another
state and I will never have to do this. Well,
(34:56):
in the meantime, let's close things off on a positive note,
because we do have these women at the top, and
we also have women like those who founded skill Crush,
who are doing things with their skills to empower other
women and other girls who might not be quite yet
at the level of a Cheryl Sandberg. And that's really
(35:18):
cool and there's a lot of conversation that's going on.
There's a lot of mentorship happening, and a lot of
organizations that are starting up specifically to help fix this
pipeline problem. Right there's groups like Girls who Code and
Black Girls who Code. And I know we've talked a
lot about the US, but there is little Miss Geek
in the UK. They run school workshops getting women from
(35:42):
the industry to actually come into the schools and talk
to the girls, like, look at this human person who's
in front of you, who is successful and happy. You
could also be like her. So I mean that those
are just just three examples. And then on top of that,
there is it's more of a hacker kind of thing,
but there's Ada Fruit and fem engineer. And finally, we
(36:03):
referenced earlier the Anita Borg Institute for Women and Technology,
which began a competition recently for quote Top Company for
Technical Women Award, which was given in two thousand twelve
f y I to American Express. So cool. Yeah. Another
interesting note, the more College of Art, which is a
(36:23):
women's school, is offering starting this fall major in game
design and as of August seven, of like a hundred
and thirty incoming freshmen had said that they were going
to sign up for it. Awesome. Yeah, and we didn't
talk about salaries specifically. But girls, if you were listening
to this and you are considering a college major, I
really think about computer science because the median income is
(36:45):
eight dollars. Yeah. That's one of the reasons why there
has been this push too for women to get into
computer science because engineering and computer PSI out of the gate,
make so much more than the average job title. You mean,
more than a journalism major, Kristen. That's I can't even
(37:07):
imagine making more than a journalism major. Fact, you can
put vegetables in your raben, ladies. I was a newspapers major,
so we made even less. That's what you're saying. I
was creative writing, so I think I win this game. Actually,
high five to all of us. Let's go sign up
for some skill crush classes. And uh, Lauren, thanks so
(37:29):
much for coming on. Thank you so so much for
having me. This has been a blast. Well, you'll definitely
have to come back for a women in Gaming conversation
in the future. I would love and or hate to Well,
we want to hear from listeners out there are you
in computer science, Are you in any kind of coding, developing, programming, etcetera.
(37:50):
We want to hear from you. We do don't care
if you're a guy who crushes code or a girl
who crushes code. And send us your letters mom Stuff
at Discovery dot com or you can tweet us at
mom Stuff podcast or find us on Facebook. And we've
got a couple of letters to share with you. And
back to our letters. Well, I got an email here
from Justina on our episode on the Maestros of Classical Music.
(38:15):
She writes, thanks for your podcast on women conductors. One
thing you mentioned briefly was that the number of women
musicians in orchestras is on the rise, But do you
know why. A big part of the reason is the
implementation of blind audition in music schools, conservatories and orchestras.
It turns out that when judges judge on performance only
and have no knowledge of who it is that's playing,
(38:37):
more women are selected who now, So thanks Justina. I
have a letter here from a listener who would like
to remain anonymous, and she wanted to offer her thoughts
on women in the workforce. After Kristin and I did
our series on leanin um. She says, I started thinking
about my own profession and my experience as a professional woman.
(39:00):
In my company, behavior services for children and adults, there
are maybe six men. Seven if you count the maintenance man's,
they're about fifty women. In my department, behavior therapists, there
are no men. Are clinical director as a woman, my
supervisor as a woman. Even when I was in grad
school for clinical mental health counseling, there were few men.
Out of twenty people in my cohort, there were three.
(39:22):
There were more men as professors, but most of them
were in the academic field, not applied services. The work
environment is very different than any place I have worked
in before. Obviously, it is very female friendly. When planning
get together with co workers, we typically think girls nights
in or pampering night. We are also super helpful towards
each other. If one of us is stressed, someone will
give an encouraging word. It's really nice. On the other hand,
(39:44):
there can be times when the group can get collectively
wrapped up in cavetching sessions. I'll just say, when we distress,
we talk and often complain. We also don't do confrontation easily.
If there is an issue it takes a long time
for to get resolved. I haven't had a chance to
read Lean In, but most of your podcast seemed to
focus on fields where a man at the boss or
(40:05):
women have to compete or work with men. Have there
been any studies looking at all female workplaces? While it
is fun and listen intimidating to be in an all
woman workplace, it is nice every once in a while
to have a guy around. And I can tell you,
anonymous listener, I have worked in a majority female work
environment and I don't know that I've actually seen studies
(40:29):
about it though. Yeah, I don't know that I've seen
any studies either. Yeah, but other listeners, if you've worked
in an all female workplace in high school, I did
work in a daycare center and that was all women,
um and lots of babies. But but yeah, if other
listeners can relate, send us an email. Mom Stuff at
(40:51):
Discovery dot com is where you can send them. You
can also follow us on Twitter at mom Stuff Podcast
and find us on Facebook, and you can find Laura
and Voguel bomb Over at tech Stuff and Forward Thinking,
So definitely check out her podcast as well, and you
can also follow us on Instagram and stuff I've never
told you, and you should watch every single one of
(41:13):
our one hundred plus videos on YouTube. Yeah there are
a lot of them. YouTube. Dot com slash stuff I've
never told you, and don't forget to subscribe for more
on this and thousands of other topics. Doesn't how stuff
works dot com
Welcome to Stuff Mom Never told You from housetupp Works
dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Kristen,
and I'm Caroline and I'm Laura. That's right, everybody, for
this second installment of our Women in Stem series that
we're doing. This is the technology episode in Caroline and
(00:26):
I are thrilled to have on. Lauren vogel Baum, co
host of the House up Works podcasts Plural Tech Stuff
and for thinking that is entirely correct. Lauren, thanks so
much for coming on. You're so welcome. Thank you for
having me here. Well, we've got a lot of stuff
to talk about with women in tech because the situation
(00:46):
is a little bleak. Yeah, we've got some sad stories
for you. We do have some sad stories, but some
happy stories. Yeah, Because if we look at women in
tech going back to the sixties, it started all right,
even even back to the forties. Yeah, I mean some
of those some of the first computer programmers who were
working on the big old mechanical punch tape machines were women.
(01:10):
They're a group of six of them are trying to
get together and make a documentary about their experience because
their story really hasn't been told. And you know, programming
at the time was was considered akin to clerical work. Um,
it was considered a really a really promising field for
women to be in. There was this really great quote
from from one Grace Hopper, who will talk more about
in a moment in Cosmo around saying that programming is
(01:33):
just like planning a dinner. You have to plan ahead
and schedule everything so that's ready when you need it.
Women are naturals at computer programming. Did you know that, Caroline, Well,
there you go. No, I took like a coding class,
and I would not have thought to compare it to
dinner to making a dinner. But then again, when is
the last time that I ever planned a dinner party?
So I was about to say, I'm completely terrified of
(01:55):
making dinner and coding both, So I'm not really sure.
I mean, maybe maybe it's accurate. I would, Well, ladies,
I'm pretty good at making a cast role, so maybe
I should transition into coding. We will come over and
you can cook for us and we will code together. Perfect. Yeah,
it'll be like a like a knitting group, except with
way more computers. Well did we mention though, that that
(02:17):
Grace Hopper quote about planning dinner actually came out of
none other than Cosmopolitan magazine in nineteen sixties seven because
moving out of the forties, obviously, um, when you know,
we have these six women who are working on the eniac.
But by the nineteen sixties, computers are really starting to
become more of uh their own industry. They're actually fields
(02:41):
developing around that. And there was this article in Cosmo
about the quote unquote computer girls, because at the time
it was thought that, yeah, this low level quote unquote
clerical work would be great for women. That seems like
a missed Halloween costume opportunity computer girls. So in the
nineteen sixties, So could you say, Lauren that Grace Hopper
(03:06):
at the time was kind of like a Cheryl Sandberg
or Marissa Meyer of her day. She was one of
the leading women, a role model for other women in computing.
She absolutely was. And I should mention that Grace Hopper,
that's Rear Admiral doctor Grace Murray Hopper to you, um,
because not not only a doctorate in mathematics, but also
(03:27):
in the Navy, rose to the rank of rear admiral
by the end of her career. You know, she was
the third person to work on programming um the the
Mark one, the Harvard Mark one computer in the nineteen
forties at Harvard's Craft Laboratory, which was I mean it
was essentially a pocket calculator, but a fifty one foot
pocket calculator, and it was really one of the first
(03:47):
machines that could do that kind of calculation automatically. So
it was a big deal. And a few years later,
when electronic computers began replacing the mechanical punch tape sorts
of things, she was on the team that developed the
binary code compiler, and and compilers are a little bit
like a translation program for computers. They help a computer
(04:07):
and a person interacting with it. You know, it's a
lot easier for for the programmer to write in a
language that isn't directly accessible to the computer, and so
that compilers is helping translate. It's the basis for modern computing. Yeah,
when I was reading about this, it sounds like such
a basic principle of computing today. But at the time,
(04:29):
Hopper has said that people's minds were so blown by
the very notion that a computer could do this that
when she would talk about making this compiler. People wouldn't
believe her. Yeah. Yeah, they were like, they were like, no, never, never,
that will never happen. How could you possibly talk about
that kind of thing? You know, it reminds me of
of stories about it all Lovelace And when Charles Babbage,
this was way way back in the eight hundreds, I believe,
(04:51):
he was talking to her about this idea that he
had for an analytical machine, and she said, you know,
that could do more than just than just computations or calculations.
You could use math to talk to the computer and
have it talked to you back in text or in
pictures or in music. And everyone was like how just
you know, like if I could insert a graphic of
a giant explosion, that would be what I would put
(05:13):
right here. She was blowing people's minds because I mean,
you know, women back then, they didn't think thoughts like that.
Come on, and then certainly not mathematical thoughts, because everyone
knows that girls are bad at math, right exactly, But
they are good at low level clerical work, which is
why they were the first programmers. Yeah, until it became
(05:35):
more masculinized. Yeah, supposedly this and and this this quote
that we've been talking about from that Cosmo article is
um from a really great piece published by Brenda D.
Frank through Stanford University's Claim and Institute for Gender Research. UM.
And it's in the article she's describing how male programmers
at the time we're seeking to increase the prestige of
(05:56):
the industry a k a. To defeminize it um, which cheery. Um,
you know, I mean this was also and some of
the examples that I've read from the time are just
so mad menesque that I can't even believe that it's
a thing that really existed. Um. Not that mad Men is,
I mean, you know, not a completely inaccurate, but still
it's just so weird to me. Yeah, that that men
(06:17):
in the in the programming field started shutting women out
by by putting in educational requirements, um, using mail networks
to advertise jobs like frats and lodges stuff like that
that women wouldn't be a part of and uh, and
using personality tests that described programmers as disinterested in people
and disliking activities involving close personal interaction. And hence we
(06:40):
have the stereotype of the antisocial male computer programmer who
doesn't get out of his basement often, right, But I
mean it sounds like an incredibly literal, clear linear direct
uh predecessor to the culture that we're going to talk
about in a little bit as far as programmer things
like that. Just the overall kind of taking away the
(07:04):
welcome mat for women. Yeah, And it's unfortunate because today
so much of a conversation and the emphasis in tech
that you hear over and over and over again and
not just in women only circles, is how to get
that welcome back back? Right? Yeah? Um, so what do
what do the statistics look like though? In terms of
(07:27):
women who are pursuing computer science, Well, it starts out
not so bad in high school, I would think, I mean,
people talk about this pipeline of women in tech and computing,
and that the pipeline leads you from you know, middle school,
high school all the way through grad school and then
it has leaks, and so it starts out not so bad.
Umi of AP calculus test takers were female in It's
(07:53):
not quite as great for the computer science classes though. Yeah.
Compared to calculus, only nineteen percent of AP computer science
test takers were women in two thousand eleven. And yeah,
I'm gonna be honest, an AP computer science test sounds
(08:13):
terrifying to me. Well, but also, I mean, I think
that has a lot to do with the fact that,
like I, you know, personally, I didn't grow up even
thinking math or science was an option. Yeah, I mean,
it didn't. It didn't appeal to me. It didn't make
sense to me. I was always word driven. But that's
also kind of the direction that I was sort of push. Yeah. Yeah,
(08:33):
I feel like even from elementary school, and I'm sure
that you guys have talked about statistics surrounding this, also
that that that girls are are encouraged towards language driven
things in a way from science driven driven things most
of the time. I mean, I certainly, you know, like
all of my test scores were about even on math
and language. But until I started getting like further on
in high school and language went but chaw. So, I mean,
(08:55):
you know, I should say that I'm not I'm not
a programmer, you know, I'm a I'm a tech journalist.
But that's certainly not being directly involved in the tech industry. Well,
speaking of being directly involved in the tech industry, it's
also fascinating to see the erosion of the number of
women in college who are not just expressing interest at
(09:17):
the outset of wanting to go onto computer science, but
of the women who actually stick with it and complete
that computer science degree. Because in the mid eighties there
were a fair number of us who were doing that.
Thirty seven percent of computer science undergrads were women, and
we actually peaked in computer science academia in the nineteen eighties.
(09:39):
Coincidence that that's around the time that The Wizard came
out and War Games starring Ali Sheey that's right, Fred Savage?
Uh and what's her name for Rilokaili was in was
in that movie with Fred Savage? Anyway, I did um.
But Yeah, it's crazy that, like the numbers were, Okay,
thirty seven percent is not percent, but it's still not
(10:01):
too shabby considering Yeah, as of it was only eight percent.
And if we are just looking at interest in majoring
in comps I, there is a seventy nine percent decline
from two thousand to two thousand and eleven. It's crazy
what happened. Yeah, I is serious. Well, and how that
(10:24):
translates into actually jobby job land if we look at
the career landscape, obviously it's going to be dominated by
dudes because of that. Yeah, only about a quarter of
professional computing occupations were held by women in the US,
and that is down from thirty six percent in And
(10:44):
if you look at high powered positions, only of chief
information officer positions at Fortune to fifty companies were held
by women in and just to get a sense of
the job breakdown within the industry, two and five developers
are women, but seventy percent of software developers are men.
(11:05):
And then there's this other issue that we'll talk about
a little bit more in terms of startups because as
of two thousand and ten, only six percent of venture
capital back startups were headed by women. And then again
not to make this the most suppressing podcast ever, but
even okay, for women who have gone to college, they
(11:27):
made it through their classes, maybe being the only female,
they got their computer science degree, they got their computer job,
and then we have the retention problem. Yeah, it seems
like what I what I was reading about these retention issues,
it seems like women are kind of suffering silently, maybe
in these kind of unwelcoming male dominated cultures, and then
(11:50):
leaving kind of quickly or maybe even not so silently
these days with blogs, I've read a lot of really
angry blog posts from women who are just going like,
I'm fed up with this, never mind, never mind, I'm out. Yeah.
And as a result, the Anita Borg Institute found that
the cumulative quit rates of women in technology is more
than double that of men. And when they look at
(12:12):
the primary challenges that Anita Borg highlights, it's very similar
to other issues that echo throughout STEM fields, such as
lack of opportunities for recognition and advancement, challenges of work
life demands, um isolation, and unconscious biases that women may
be experiencing in more male dominated workplaces. So we're gonna
(12:37):
dig though more into those issues, tease them apart, see
whether or not these direct factors really are leading to
this pipeline problem for women in tech. When we come
right back from a quick break, Okay, so we told
you that we were going to get into some of
the culture and the reasoning behind this, the steep decline
(12:57):
in women's interest and participation in the tech fields. People
keep tossing this term around and it is programmer programming.
What does a programmer have to do with women? So
there's this perception that that programmers these days are kind
of stuck in the college mentality of like, yeah, we're
(13:18):
going to get some beer and some ladies and hang
out on couches and do all our programming there. And
I mean, you know, not helped by the fact that like,
what was that line the Cloud put out at some
point for for hiring, It was terrific, want to brow
down and crush some code, bro. I can't even that's
not even a thing that I can respond to. So
(13:40):
Kamashki Savarma Christian, who was the first female engineer at
the mobile ads startup ad Mob, told Business Week that quote,
the frat boy mentality among engineering men is a little
more pronounced in the startup world than in the more
mature organizations. So is it just is it a startup thing?
(14:00):
Is it just tech are we? Or is the programmer stereotype? Lauren?
Do you think it's just overblown? Maybe? Well, I think
it's more for for the younger startup generation than for
the older I mean, I don't think that you're going
to encounter that if you go to like Yahoo or something,
But but for certainly smaller companies where part of the
appeal is that you can be you know, that you
(14:22):
can dress casually and that you can be more yourself,
that you can have silly stuff in your office, and
that you don't have to be so buttoned down and
part of that in these very dude oriented offices, you know,
which there's nothing particularly wrong with if if a guy
starts a company and hires people and they happen to
be guys, but you know, just people have to be
aware of the fact that they might be making that
(14:43):
environment unwelcoming to people who are not exactly like them.
And and I do, I do think that it gets
overblown in the media because programmer is such a great
silly word to put up in a headline. And but
I don't I don't think it's just like dudes hiring dudes.
I mean, I also think there have been some pretty
like hor thickly stupid things that we've seen pop up
in the media that these male programming tech you know,
(15:07):
app developing software developing guys have said, and not just
like in the bathroom to themselves, I mean they've they've
said it like, you know, on stage. Yeah, I think
you're probably referring to an incident that happened at south
By Southwest Interactive a couple of years back, in a
presentation that was being given by this guy named Matt
(15:27):
Van Horne, Is this what you're referring to, Caroline, That
is what I'm referring to. And he even like before
he gives his presentation, apologizes for like, hey, guys, I'm sorry,
I'm gonna be sexist here. Here it goes. Well, it's terrific.
I love it. Whenever anyone says that that's great. Yeah,
he speaks against having a certain style of interview where
an entire committee like gangs up on a person, and
(15:50):
he calls that a gang bang interview. And and not
only that, he he talks about getting a job at
dig by sending bikini shots from a callender a hotty
calendar that he had made. Right, well, all right, I'll
give it to Van Horn that he did apologize profusely,
of course after this happened, because there were women getting
(16:13):
up from this presentation actively tweeting it, live tweeting the
entire thing and leaving, and so of course he, you know,
he puts his tail between his legs and apologizes. But
I do think that maybe this programmer culture is reflective
of a larger thing that we do see with startups
(16:34):
where it's not just a job, it's a lifestyle. You
go to the Google complex and they have food, they
have laundry, they have childcare. You go to Facebook here
expected to be there all night. That's something that Cheryl
Sandbury actually talks about in lean In, where she had
to kind of mentally get over the fact that she
wasn't gonna be what was it growing down and crushing
(16:57):
code all night with the guys, because it's just it's
physically impossible when you're you know, when you have a family, exactly. Yeah,
and so you when you do have a lot of
younger people guy or girl who might not have families,
maybe there's more leeway for a beer guzzling, you know,
this pumping. And you know, I've worked at a startup
(17:19):
that it was a marketing startup that had a beer fridge,
and you know, after five o'clock it was like beer
fridges open, have some beers, and you know, and no
one like got crazy, Like we weren't browing down, I
don't think, but I would love to see you try
to brow down. But Gina Trapani, who's a webin mobile
app developer, says that the whole programmer thing, Like you said,
(17:39):
it is a joke. Maybe it's not like an ingrained
culture that every single guy programmer lives and breathes. But
she says that it's a useful one to lend language
to a persistent issue of tech companies with overwhelmingly male staff.
She says basically that it helps women decide we're not
to work And I think, I mean, that's that's good
and that's horrible all the same time, because is that
(18:01):
not just contributing to a decline in women's numbers at
a lot of companies? Sure, yeah, I mean, you know,
I also think that it's just like just like any
company policy, you're going to have companies that you do
and don't want to work for. And it totally sucks.
Don't get me wrong that there's this gender divide that's
forcing part of this issue here, But you know, it's
not isolated to just sexism. Yeah, and I do think
(18:23):
that it's it's a good point to remember that sexist
comments and inappropriate behavior are by no means limited to
Silicon Valley. It might we might hear more about it
because the people who are hearing it are maybe more
wired and more apt to live tweeted, and in a
startup culture, maybe you feel more empowered to raise your
(18:46):
hand and say that's not okay, rather than if you
are a tiny cog at the bottom of a very
large org chart. So I do think there is some
caution that needs to be taken though with portraying the
tech industry is too bleak, because it's like if we
take it in the other direction, then and we only
hear terrible things, and that's not going to get girls
(19:08):
and women involved in it. Um, But the visibility factor
is so much there for guys because the stereotype of
computers is nerds who we see on TV. In the
social network, we're seeing guys at the forefront and girls
sort of his set dressings every now and then. And um,
(19:28):
this is sort of a side note, but I was
reading about something called the c s I effect a
couple of days ago, which is how it's a theory
at least on how the popularity of shows like c
s I has led to a real world surge in
women in forensics. Of all the stem fields, women dominate
forensics across the board. And there was an article in
(19:49):
New York Times a couple of weeks ago asking whether
or not computer science could use its own c s
I effect to maybe see more like cool women doing
cool things with cool computers, so that girls have that
visibility to change that stereotype, move it away from the
pro grammar, which clearly is trying to overcorrect for the
(20:12):
former stereotype of the antisocial guy who can't leave his basement,
and bring more women into the pop cultural computer full yeah.
And and there are a few examples of that in
in pretty popular TV. I mean, um, the show the
show Bones has Angelo, who is an artist and a
computer scientist who you know, granted, is also incredibly pretty
(20:34):
and doing her thing like in mini skirts. But that's
I guess what you do on television when you're in
the sciences, you know, going going back to your hero.
We all, we all love you, Lieutenant and hera and
I think that right now, and this is a larger
problem with television. They'll have to be incredibly pretty and
kind of niche nerd at the same time. Like you
can't just be a girl who's on a computer. You
(20:55):
have to be a geek girl. And that's another separate
thing that I'm sure you guys have discussed on the
show at some point we have not done episode. Well,
I almost don't even want to touch it because it's
so it's so tricky and button Yeah. Yeah, but I
feel like even in the real world, for the visible
(21:15):
mentors that we see, the Marrissa Myers and Ryl Sandberg's, etcetera,
it's still a very constructed and careful image that they
have to maintain. Oh yeah, it's such I feel like
it's insanely tricky territory that, you know, they have to
not downplay their femininity because that would be some kind
of crime against femaleness if they weren't somehow you know,
(21:39):
projecting that, but at the same time have to show
that they can be this power player and I don't know,
it's it's it's weird and terribly unfair. Yeah, it's almost
like they have to put on some sort of like
official feminine woman uniform to even enter the room, you know,
to to climb that tech ladder. It's like they won't
just accept. It's like you have to try so hard,
(22:01):
even harder than a man, maybe not only in your work,
but in your appearance and your wardrobe, in the things
you say and how you say them right well, and
on top of that too, there's this added burden not
only of the appearance, but also I have some sympathy
for these incredibly successful women who really don't need my
sympathy at all, but for the fact that since women
(22:23):
in tech is such a high profile issue right now,
I feel like they're almost bearing up the mantle of
all women and girls in tech and maybe even STEM
in general. So and I feel like with Marissa Meyer
in particular, the Yahoo CEO, that she's very uncomfortable with that,
that she just wants to do her job and do
(22:44):
it well. Yeah, she says all the time, like like,
I'm not a girl geek. I'm a geek. Can we
stop asking me questions about women and me giving birth
because that's not my job. Yeah. But at the same
time though, too, it's like, well, Marissa Meyer, you're coming
up at this time, and I feel a sympathy, But
at the same time it's with great power comes great responsibility. Yeah,
(23:06):
She's She's also said that she hasn't personally felt discriminated
against as a woman in that sector, and she's certainly
not the only person saying that. Um I had one word,
small story Before we move on to some of these
other really big names in tech leadership. UM. There was
a really great blog post that came out just this
month October by a programmer named Meredith Patterson who was
(23:28):
talking about how she's never experienced this this new girls
allowed kind of vibe in programming, and also talks about
how that may be due to the fact that she
has autism and and that that's you know, a separate
but related personality factor of of not always cluing in
on subtle social circumstances. UM. But you know that she
hates the assumption that all women have a bad experience
(23:50):
in tech because that's not her experience. I think that overall,
painting it as completely terrible or completely okay is is
harmful either way. Yeah, and there also stories on the
smaller scale too of women who might have been dissatisfied
with what was going on, but they're the exciting thing
about being in tech, And I feel as even as
(24:10):
someone who is not coding necessarily but involved in new
media UM, is that the field is so open for
you to make what you want to make. Kind of
in the instance of the women who founded skill Crush, Caroline,
I know that you've taken some skill Crush courses I did,
and it was actually a fantastic experience coming. You know,
(24:32):
I had no I had no experience in this area
at all, and so taking skill Crush classes it's like
such a you feel like you've walked into your best
friend's apartment and all of your mutual friends are over
and you're just like, hey, ladies, ladies on a couch
with beer. Perfect. No, but it's great because um, and
(24:52):
you know, not that I'm trying to make this into
an advertisement for skill Crush, you know, but the it's
like it's so obvious from the minute you sign up,
the minute you pay them that you have a complete
and total, open and honest and thoughtful support group of
women and some guys. There's some guys taking those classes.
But um, I just feel like that's so important because
(25:15):
I there there were some some weeks where it all tough,
got little tough, there were some tough lessons, and I
think I would have just said to heck with it
if there hadn't been those awesome women. Because the woman
who founded it, Ada or Adam, I'm sorry, Uh, you
know she's she's in the videos teaching you how to code.
She is this brainiac behind all of this coding stuff,
(25:38):
and there she is in her like cute little outfit
and you know, rocking some code and and so it was.
It was really comforting and kind of awesome. And it's
specifically designed right to teach women in particular code, not
that they exclude dudes, but it's geared specifically towards the
young professional woman who thinks that she's too busy to
(26:01):
learn how to code, but she can. That's amazing. And
especially yeah, I mean, you know, just having having those
role models was so important. Yeah, it's so important for
at least striving towards some kind of parody too, so
that we have more than Maurice and me Er Cheryl
Sandberg and some other exceptions to the rule to talk about.
(26:22):
Because even at the top top tiers of US companies,
at least, the numbers of women in leadership roles tech
wise are also down in accordance with the numbers that
are down for women who are even studying computer science. Yeah,
if we look at UH chief information officers, that's down
to nine percent in from twelve percent in two. It
(26:46):
seems to be pretty steadily declining from just a few
to even fewer and one poll, thirty of four hundred
and fifty American tech executives said that their I T
groups have no women in management agreed that women were underrepresented. Yeah,
(27:07):
and Tara Hunt, who's the CEO of a company called Biosphere,
told Forbes that the more women we see in high
profile technical roles at these companies, the more young women
will be inspired to pursue a career in technology. And
that visibility issue is something that comes up over and
over in not just tech, but in other stem fields
(27:27):
because I do think I think all of our experiences
speak to the power of actually seeing or in our
cases maybe not so much seeing women in these kinds
of jobs. And another kind of factor in why we
need more women in this field is because the very
simple concept of like hiring like um, if we look
(27:50):
at venture capital firms people giving funding to startups, venture
capitalists are men, and so you know, I'm not saying
that a man won't fund a woman's venture or vice versa.
But what I'm saying is that inherent biases do exist.
And so if it is this old boys club and
(28:11):
men are helping their their bros out, you know, maybe
it's time to get some more women in these fields
to help each other and and to help men too.
I'm not trying to exclude anything, sure, yeah, but yeah,
but it's still that kind of that thing that started
way back in the in the sixties of of you know,
being kind of driven by these connections that men make
in these professional organizations that women can't get into. Yeah,
(28:32):
there's after hours networking, and then there's also two when
it comes to venture capital and startups, this factor of
risk taking. I think this was something Caroline we talked
about in our episode on Instagram where those guys were
so successful because a lot of times it's a hallmark
of dudes who are really into startup where they're also
really into risk taking and you're probably gonna try a
(28:54):
lot of different things and you're moving a lot of
money around. And I think that women can also help
themselves too by being braver to take on those risks.
And speaking of venture capital, and this is a bit tangential,
but not too long ago, there was a huge internet
(29:14):
fallout when the guy who found a dead spin whose
name I am forgetting right now, announced very publicly that
he had raised five million dollars in venture capital to
start a website for women called Bustle dot com, oh
that whole thing. Yeah, And he was so proud of himself,
and he was obviously a business guy, and I think
(29:35):
that he was earnest and really wanting to start this
and everyone, every woman I think he was contributed to
any kind of women's media threw up her hands. But
he whin got the money though. At the end of
the day, he went and got the money. And that
means that there is five million dollars plus out there
(29:55):
looking for a female audience. Why did it have to
be a guy who sold the idea, lady or I
think all three of us just have our hands up
with each other because I could use some five million bucks.
I don't know about you, Yeah, but I wonder though
if he was I mean, definitely his business legacy with
dead Spin, which became very profitable, gave him credibility for
(30:16):
seeking out this venture capital. But when you look at
who funded it, it was a lot of other guys.
And so you do wonder though, that if all three
of us went to go pitch our lady fantastic web empire,
if we would have as much success. I just wonder
because it would be harder to find a woman to
(30:36):
fund us. You know, yeah, we we'd have to start
out by making this million dollar business and then but
how do you how do you do that when you're
a lady in a field that doesn't really want you
to exactly, well, we're going to start a PayPal account.
But again, that's why it is good that we do
have the Cheryl Sandberg's, the Marissa Myers is paving the
(30:58):
way who are for an now maybe taking on the mantle.
Although you know, they do have to deal with a
lot of criticism, but the good news is is that
it isn't always focused on their gender. Right. Yeah, you'll
see Mers and Myer catching flak when she poses in
(31:18):
what magazine was It was at Vogue? It was Vogue? Yeah, um,
kind of kind of sexy it up, um, as though
she cannot be a CEO and also a woman who
is a sexy lady. Um. But I think most of
the criticism against you know, Cheryl Sandberg or uh Jenny Rometti,
who's the CEO of IBM, people like that is more
(31:38):
that they're mismanaging their companies in specific ways that aren't gendered.
It's kind of comforting to me that people can criticize
these women as CEOs and not have to mention the
fact that ps they have lady bits in every single
news article. I mean, you know, they always say woman
and ceo and well, you know, but that's the way
that our language is structured. So it's kind of okay. Um,
(32:00):
specifically with Cheryl Sandberg, I was really comforted when criticism
of Lenin came in and a lot of it was
about classism instead of sexism. I thought that was I mean,
it's still it's terrible to classism like that was happening.
But I was like, well, this is a wonderful world
we're living in. No one is saying like, shut that
lady up. They were saying like shut that rich lady up,
(32:20):
which is a whole different issue exactly. I mean, just
the fact that she has the liberty to talk about
the ins and outs of Facebook and Google too, of
how it was, how it was for her sort of
learning the ropes as a woman, as a wife, as
a mother in there. I think you're right. Definitely speaks
to um maybe some progress that's being made. And I
(32:44):
noticed with Apple's recent higher of the former Barberry CEO
Angela Lawrence, seemed controversy free, which was surprising to see
in tech, but especially for women in tech getting big jobs.
But I do wonder if it went so smoothly because
she was hired on to oversee both online and in
(33:06):
store retail, and which is a more lady business exactly
because ladies shop. You guys be shopping. We love shopping exactly,
all of us choose, shoose, choose period and maybe a
Berbery trench, Oh I wish. But yeah, she she became
the one woman among Apple's top ten senior executives. So
(33:29):
at least she is there. And you know, you do
have the case of like Julie Larson Green, who was
recently hired on to be the head of Xbox. You know,
she's in charge of all of the hardware, the games,
the music, the entertainment. And some of the comments that
were being made just they're not good human comments to
make about humans. Well we haven't even gotten into gaming. Yeah,
(33:52):
gaming is a whole separate issue. Back when we were
talking numbers of programmers, and they were pretty dire, you know,
like down into the into the teens, three of programmers
of games or women and and and they and they
make you know, like ten thousand dollars less on average
than their male counterparts, which I think is a higher
percentage than than another in other industries, which is ludicrous
(34:15):
and ridiculous until you start looking at the kind of
games that that most developers are making, and the female
characters that most games include, and just the general gamer culture.
If you guys want me to come back and rant
a lot about gaming culture, I can do that thing. Yeah,
you haven open invitation for sure, because I know that
(34:36):
we have a lot of gamers among our listeners and women,
and gaming has been a requested topic. So it's definitely
something we should spend an entire episode on because there's
so much there to talk about. It's a very pointy topic.
I'm kind of I just said that. Now I'm like,
maybe I can change my name and move to another
state and I will never have to do this. Well,
(34:56):
in the meantime, let's close things off on a positive note,
because we do have these women at the top, and
we also have women like those who founded skill Crush,
who are doing things with their skills to empower other
women and other girls who might not be quite yet
at the level of a Cheryl Sandberg. And that's really
(35:18):
cool and there's a lot of conversation that's going on.
There's a lot of mentorship happening, and a lot of
organizations that are starting up specifically to help fix this
pipeline problem. Right there's groups like Girls who Code and
Black Girls who Code. And I know we've talked a
lot about the US, but there is little Miss Geek
in the UK. They run school workshops getting women from
(35:42):
the industry to actually come into the schools and talk
to the girls, like, look at this human person who's
in front of you, who is successful and happy. You
could also be like her. So I mean that those
are just just three examples. And then on top of that,
there is it's more of a hacker kind of thing,
but there's Ada Fruit and fem engineer. And finally, we
(36:03):
referenced earlier the Anita Borg Institute for Women and Technology,
which began a competition recently for quote Top Company for
Technical Women Award, which was given in two thousand twelve
f y I to American Express. So cool. Yeah. Another
interesting note, the more College of Art, which is a
(36:23):
women's school, is offering starting this fall major in game
design and as of August seven, of like a hundred
and thirty incoming freshmen had said that they were going
to sign up for it. Awesome. Yeah, and we didn't
talk about salaries specifically. But girls, if you were listening
to this and you are considering a college major, I
really think about computer science because the median income is
(36:45):
eight dollars. Yeah. That's one of the reasons why there
has been this push too for women to get into
computer science because engineering and computer PSI out of the gate,
make so much more than the average job title. You mean,
more than a journalism major, Kristen. That's I can't even
(37:07):
imagine making more than a journalism major. Fact, you can
put vegetables in your raben, ladies. I was a newspapers major,
so we made even less. That's what you're saying. I
was creative writing, so I think I win this game. Actually,
high five to all of us. Let's go sign up
for some skill crush classes. And uh, Lauren, thanks so
(37:29):
much for coming on. Thank you so so much for
having me. This has been a blast. Well, you'll definitely
have to come back for a women in Gaming conversation
in the future. I would love and or hate to Well,
we want to hear from listeners out there are you
in computer science, Are you in any kind of coding, developing, programming, etcetera.
(37:50):
We want to hear from you. We do don't care
if you're a guy who crushes code or a girl
who crushes code. And send us your letters mom Stuff
at Discovery dot com or you can tweet us at
mom Stuff podcast or find us on Facebook. And we've
got a couple of letters to share with you. And
back to our letters. Well, I got an email here
from Justina on our episode on the Maestros of Classical Music.
(38:15):
She writes, thanks for your podcast on women conductors. One
thing you mentioned briefly was that the number of women
musicians in orchestras is on the rise, But do you
know why. A big part of the reason is the
implementation of blind audition in music schools, conservatories and orchestras.
It turns out that when judges judge on performance only
and have no knowledge of who it is that's playing,
(38:37):
more women are selected who now, So thanks Justina. I
have a letter here from a listener who would like
to remain anonymous, and she wanted to offer her thoughts
on women in the workforce. After Kristin and I did
our series on leanin um. She says, I started thinking
about my own profession and my experience as a professional woman.
(39:00):
In my company, behavior services for children and adults, there
are maybe six men. Seven if you count the maintenance man's,
they're about fifty women. In my department, behavior therapists, there
are no men. Are clinical director as a woman, my
supervisor as a woman. Even when I was in grad
school for clinical mental health counseling, there were few men.
Out of twenty people in my cohort, there were three.
(39:22):
There were more men as professors, but most of them
were in the academic field, not applied services. The work
environment is very different than any place I have worked
in before. Obviously, it is very female friendly. When planning
get together with co workers, we typically think girls nights
in or pampering night. We are also super helpful towards
each other. If one of us is stressed, someone will
give an encouraging word. It's really nice. On the other hand,
(39:44):
there can be times when the group can get collectively
wrapped up in cavetching sessions. I'll just say, when we distress,
we talk and often complain. We also don't do confrontation easily.
If there is an issue it takes a long time
for to get resolved. I haven't had a chance to
read Lean In, but most of your podcast seemed to
focus on fields where a man at the boss or
(40:05):
women have to compete or work with men. Have there
been any studies looking at all female workplaces? While it
is fun and listen intimidating to be in an all
woman workplace, it is nice every once in a while
to have a guy around. And I can tell you,
anonymous listener, I have worked in a majority female work
environment and I don't know that I've actually seen studies
(40:29):
about it though. Yeah, I don't know that I've seen
any studies either. Yeah, but other listeners, if you've worked
in an all female workplace in high school, I did
work in a daycare center and that was all women,
um and lots of babies. But but yeah, if other
listeners can relate, send us an email. Mom Stuff at
(40:51):
Discovery dot com is where you can send them. You
can also follow us on Twitter at mom Stuff Podcast
and find us on Facebook, and you can find Laura
and Voguel bomb Over at tech Stuff and Forward Thinking,
So definitely check out her podcast as well, and you
can also follow us on Instagram and stuff I've never
told you, and you should watch every single one of
(41:13):
our one hundred plus videos on YouTube. Yeah there are
a lot of them. YouTube. Dot com slash stuff I've
never told you, and don't forget to subscribe for more
on this and thousands of other topics. Doesn't how stuff
works dot com
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