Women in the Alcohol Industry

Two women whipping up creative cocktails in Atlanta's bar scene stop by to share their experiences, and their advice.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:04):
Hey, this is Annie and Samantha and welcome to Steph
Moan never told your production of I heard Radios how
stuff works. I have to write out that that intro
every time, and it just says x x X where
you put in the show, And every time I think

(00:25):
of the movie Triple X and I've never seen that,
which just a side note. I don't know if you've
seen the new controversy trying to make Elizabeth Cougar Elizabeth
Cougar Elizabeth Warren Cougar. That's a new title that she's
gotten because there was this allegation from this young guy
saying that he had had sex capad with possible President Warren.

(00:46):
I'm just waiting on um, but on the picture and
then it was debunked really quickly because he had to
picture on social media. I wish debunked it. But in
there he had a triple X tattoo. Really. Oh no,
it's fantastic. I mean, if you have a trible like
sad too, there's a lot to be said. No judgment
for me, but um, we're not talking about Triple X

(01:10):
to day, We're talking about women in the alcohol industry.
And this episode has been a long time coming. I actually,
like maybe two years ago, met someone who I fell
in love with right and thought, oh, I've got to
get her on the show. Tiffany Berrier, you won't here
in this episode, but we do have a part two

(01:31):
kind of like a cocktail hour coming up, and she'll
she'll be in that one. But just timing and personal thing.
All this stuff kept happening quick in that way. But
then you you were determined to get a cocktail out
of this. Look, whenever I can get good cocktails made
for me, I'm gonna like take that opportunity. I really

(01:56):
appreciated it. You were a very gung home You're very
determined going to happen, and it did did after some
emails and some pleading and some gin yes, and we
finally made it. Uh that Yeah, that's just us making
it drinks. I mean yeah. So for this one, we

(02:19):
do have to um experts in the field, shall we say,
people who have been working in bartending making cocktails in
Atlanta um for a while, But we did want to
give kind of a brief overview before we get into that.
And also if it's not obvious, if you struggle with alcoholism,
probably this is not the episode for you, right, so

(02:39):
we do have some numbers. The U s Department of
Labor reported that as bartenders identify as female, but they
are often relegated to jobs that pay less. Women asked
about their experiences have said that they can get a
job at a sports bar are restaurant like Hooters pretty easily. Um.
And by the way, a head shot might be a
bigger deal than any skill when it comes to cocktails.

(03:00):
It like this, like that, right, And I know that
was part of the thing. And I think l a
where they would have to have headshots to become a
part of that industry, which is okay. In a study
out of New York found that six bartenders in the
city's fine dining restaurants where mel where the money is
higher in family style dining restaurants where the money and
the prestigious lower men makeup the bartenders, basically, women, even

(03:22):
though they make up a majority of the bartending workforce,
are underrepresentative when it comes to these profitable, high respected
bartending positions. And the same thing bears out when you
look at people of color. Yeah, and I know I've
brought it up before. I think when I first came
on the show, they were like, and he does another
podcast called Save but you can go listen to her
and and some things that relate to feminism on there.

(03:44):
And one of the big ones is we did one
on Tipping Right and we talked about a lot of
this stuff. If you want to go check that out.
It's probably the angers I've ever gotten on a food show.
One problem in the way of getting more women working
as bartenders has to you with the pathway to becoming one,
which is something influential New York bar employees only accidentally

(04:05):
stepped into on social media. In um a job post
for their Singapore location read not just a boys club.
We are looking for badass cocktail waitresses and supervisors to
join our team, which sounds good. The thing is, it's
easier to become a bartender if you start out as
a bar back and assistant behind the bar, cleaning glasses
and stocking liquor than it is from cocktail waiters to bartender.

(04:28):
Men are more often hired as bar backs, women are
more often hired as cocktail waiters. This, in part, seems
to come from a place of benevolent sexism, the belief
that women can't or shouldn't handle the physicality and long
hours associated with being a bar back and a bartender.
When Taste of the Cocktail held a session on gender
issues at the conference, they found respondents answered that the

(04:49):
two biggest obstacles women face when it comes to building
a career in bartending where employer biases and customer biases.
So many female bartenders have stories of a customer asking
her when will the bartender be there, asking a male
colleague who happens to be behind the bar for a drink.
We hear you're going to hear some examples of that
in our interviews. Um of people assuming a female owned

(05:12):
bar is owned by a man. Of people assuming women
got the job thanks to their looks while men got it,
thinks their skill getting questioned more about their skills and
cockdown knowledge uh as compared to their male colleagues, or
if there are more women behind the bar than men
getting questioned about the agenda of the bar, which, yeah,
which our guest will be talking about more and more.

(05:33):
Um As with most, if not every industry, there is
a wage gap as well. The average hourly wage for
a female bartender is twelve dollars and seventeen cents compared
to the thirteen dollars and eighty eight cents for male bartenders.
And this is in the US, so I would I
would love to hear from listeners from other countries if
they have any information on that. Another problem women might

(05:54):
face and men too, is sexual harassment in this industry.
Some studies have found that women working in hospit atality
reports sexual harassment at a rate that is five times
that than of the rest of the American female workforce.
This happens on both sides at the bar, customers and colleagues.
It's difficult when you depend on tips as part of
your income and that customers always right, mentality right? And again,

(06:17):
I guess do talk about the fine line a customer
service and just being like, leave me the hell alone? Right? Well?
The statistics from the U. S Department of Justice show
that outside of the military, the only profession is more
likely to be targeted for attack our law enforcement and
security cards. This is because of the late hours, like
a dot clothing that is the typical uniform of the bartender,
and the fact they are likely to be carrying cash

(06:38):
money from tips. Yeah, so how do we get more
female bartenders? Some people have been trying to make that happen.
There are a couple of projects aimed at getting more
women in bartending and two eleven, Ivy Mix and Lynette
Mrrero started a woman only bartending competition called speed Wreck.
It's grown now taking place in several cities across the

(06:59):
country and across the world. Marrero also founded the New
York chapter of Ladies United for the Preservation of Endangered Cocktails.
That's a fantastic title. I know another effort in called
Girls with Bowls Are you know? B o L started
by Kate Gerwin after she won World Bartending Championship, sponsored

(07:19):
by the Bowl Spirits Company. Uh. This program matches female
bartenders that are starting out with a mentor, mostly women,
but sometimes men. And we've talked about the importance of
mentors is very very important in the in this industry
as well. And you do hear we do hear more
and more about that about how they got pretty much
lifted up by someone that they met that taught them more,
which is also fantastic. The founder of another influential New

(07:42):
York bar Death and Co. Says being intentional about hairing
is key. Let's be careful not to stack our staff
with all the same kind of people, because that doesn't
reflect the people who will come into our bars, which
is obvious. I feel like that's an obvious statement, but
yet it seems seems hard apparently, Um, but are are
in you? We seem to think that the situation is

(08:03):
improving and it is getting more diverse. But we'll we'll
let them introduce themselves. Let's get into the interviews. But
first let's take a quick break for word from our sponsor.

(08:28):
And we're back. Thank you sponsors. So yeah, let's just
dive right in. Let's do this. My name is Keisha
Sarris Um. I've been bartending for a very long time,
so almost twenty years. Would you supposed to say that? Yeah, Um,
I guess I don't know who else was supposed to

(08:48):
be here, but I think out of um would probably
be the oldest person in this little group. Maybe, But
I mean I enjoyed do um been making contests with
a started from cocktail server bar back the beginnings of
all that, and then I went out to run a
couple of bars, work with some great people. Um. Yeah,
that's really it's really and and then I had to

(09:13):
fight my way to that now. But it's just been
really a great experience. I decided when I went to
do this as a full time career, is like when
I allow myself to just keep learning instead of just
slinging drinks so to speak. Um, And I think it's
when I switched to that. My brain is said, I
have to learn about as much as I can work everywhere.

(09:34):
Not everywhere, but basically I thought that were cool, and
then build up my resume in that way and my knowledge.
So I think I said, people would say, dude, I
go to Barton in school to get started. No, I
just kind of um fell into it and then loved
it and it just fits my lifestyle. You know. It's
kind of like being able to meet people. It did.
It did help with I used to be well, still

(09:55):
very shy. You can't tell I'm brappling right now, run
my mouth, but really shy. So that kind of pushed me,
like those first couple of years to kind of really
you know, it's still is a short well technically introverse.
That's the most people think, partner, and it helps when
you're standing there, but it's uh, it's really helped me
come out of mind shall even the older I get,

(10:17):
you know, more confidence I get in this industry, the
more people I meet, So yeah, I did it. I
think it's it's been good to me. Has been bad,
but their days one is so inconsistent. You know, you're
trying to make a living and you work a lot
of hours and you're just like tired and get burned
out and all that stuff. But yeah, it's been pretty cool. Yeah,
I mean, and you know, yeah, you have to deal

(10:42):
with that, and then you have to deal with your
own and then your work and you have your coworker.
So yeah, it's it's all the things sometimes in one
one eight hour shift. So it's uh, but I still
love it. I mean, I'm taking breaks here. They're not
a lot, but you definitely need definitely self sure. Katie.

(11:04):
I'm Katie Deakontel and I'm the bar manager at Box
Car UM. I've only been bartending for about six years,
but I've always been in restaurants. That's the only job
I've ever had UM and I ended up behind the
bar because at this neighborhood place where I was serving,
one of the main bartenders was leaving UM. And as
soon as he announced it, I kind of just like

(11:25):
raised my hand and I was like, you don't have
to hire a new person. You could just show me
how to do it. Um and very similar to what
you just said, Kisha. I decided I was going to
stay when I started learning fun, cool things and I
was like, wait, I want to keep learning all this.
And I've been with Hopsidy for four years almost UM

(11:47):
and box Cars, Hopsidy's restaurant UM. So they gave me
the opportunity to move up and like take over a
bar program on my own. So that's very new for me.
But it's been really cool and I'm still learning a
lot and I'm having a lot of fun with that's
really cool. It was a great opportunity because where do
you work right now? Done shout out Curly. I work

(12:07):
part time at Joystick Our Caper UM and then um I,
but occasionally I sometimes work at Steinbeck's and oak Hurst
UM I've been since I went there. That didn't help
them with them with their cocktail, but it's a small
cocktail list, so it's not a big deal because they're
mostly like beer um, which is cool to that mean

(12:29):
I don't do the porter for a long time. That
was when I learned, loved and learned a lot about
beer being there, so so a little bit about everything
because you know, like I said, when you're doing this
for a while, you have to take kind of a
little breaks. So my little break is still working two jobs,
but not being in charge of a lot of things
besides my own destiny, so to speak. So um, yeah,

(12:49):
so Joy six grade it is. I don't know if
it helped in there. But also I saw you were
at Dragon Cord like the last year. Oh the panel, Okay,
it was fun. It was great, but everybody said they
were like, we couldn't really hear at you because one
we didn't think the room is going to be that huge.

(13:10):
I mean it was massive. It's like so many people
like and my voice doesn't carry well, which is a
done not a good thing for Bartener. But um, it
was a pretty fun. I mean we talked about things
that I enjoyed, like remote and I was glad a
lot of people showed up. I mean, Booze brings everybody
himself from what was the topic that year? Um, it

(13:30):
was alcohol and how what is it spirits relating to?
And then in movies and science and all that things
like that, and or what's your favorite spirit? Is just
a general broad term of booze so to speak. Um,
we're going to the booze panel. So yeah, so this
one was we had five people, Um, and it was great.

(13:53):
I mean, you picked you know, whatever you want to
talk about. The most of what your favorite is the
plans to try to make cocktails. But once we saw
thee up for like, that's not gonna so I don't
thinking to make it happen, like I'm making this happen.
Like we're making this happen. I mean technically, Yeah, do
you think great? Kind of get real crazy? Well, yeah,

(14:13):
so I went for the first time this year. It
was a lot trying to order, but you know it
was a pretty cool still. You know, two people made drinks.
I just talked and that was so it's good time.
Oh yeah, like you said, she was hicked. Yep. Have

(14:37):
you been based in Atlanta the entire time you've been
working bartending? Um, when I became a two professional, I
guess I'm gonna say it that way. Yeah. Um, I
grew up in New York and um, I worked at
a red lobster Long Island when I was going to
college out there. Yes, have you asked me about chilies?

(14:58):
I wouldn't know or Apple based, Well, it might have
been pretty cool, and I was gonna is not okay fair,
but they both had those frozen drink machines, so you
can't miss um. No, So I was missing just there
in New York, and then I came here and I
kind of did that for a little bit by finally

(15:19):
that I was just been here the most so well
since then and kept going. So I said, I used
to run um like they said what Katie like when
she said was she got hired from within. I got
that my opportunity when when when my mentors and my
management most of the time was he was leaving to
run up to do his own thing, and I was like,
I think I could do this. I could run this

(15:40):
restaurant right now, and and I did for four years.
It was great. So it's not Yeah, that was pretty cool.
Like I said, it is a learning experience, So yeah,
definitely sorry. You have you been based in Atlanta the
majority of the time. I yes, I am in Atlanta Unicorn.
I was born here. I never left here. I still
lived here. I went to Georgia State And every time

(16:02):
someone from outside of the city meets me, they're like,
oh my god, you're friend here, Yes, I am, yeah,
and I My first restaurant job was in college and
the my really good friend's mom, who also happened to
be our lunch lady when we were little kids, had
a family seafood restaurant, uh indicator, And that was my

(16:25):
first job. And that's also on the low because I
was not yet twenty one. Um where bartender friends, let's
started like teaching me things about drinks and making drinks
and stuff like after hours, was like, oh what are
you doing? Um? And then like kept paying attention at
each next job. So both of you were talking about
how you really got into it. What was about the

(16:46):
alcohol like industry and the art of creating cocktails? What
was it that was like, Yes, this is fascinating, I'll
want to keep learning. There's more good question. No, it's
not a weird question. I just have to like too
totally different answers because the first thing, like the reason
that I raised my hand and was like, hey, will
you teach me how to bartend? Um was mostly just

(17:06):
because I hate waiting tables. Um. I really, like you
mentioned earlier, like being an introvert but having the bar
barrier and like that feeling of being safe behind your
bar barrier. Um. And I saw it and I was
just like yes. Also, the bartender that was teaching me
at the time, we were really good friends, and I

(17:26):
was like, I want to work with you. Um. But
then after that, uh, I think that I realized at
some point when you realize that there's more than just
like Jack Daniels and Captain Morgan, and that you can
get other things, and that it's so diverse and everything
tastes different, and then you start putting things together, and

(17:48):
then that tastes different, like definitely like the alchemist part
of it. Once I realized how cool that can be,
I was like, yeah, I want to keep doing that. Yeah,
same thing. Just um. When I was learning and then beginning,
of course, I made all the all the things long
islands or whatever. But when you do start to get

(18:08):
into books or reading or you're around people who are
really passionate and excited about it, you viewed all of that.
And yes, I got into it because like Barten is
make more money, you know, now, I'm not gonna I
was like, Okay, if I'm gonna work at restaurant, I
kind of want to work in a position where I
could make more money. And I could, I could just
kind of just be here and it feels a little
bit more intimate and a way, that's why I probably

(18:29):
get along best with people, because I feel like I'm
just having a one of more conversations they're trying to
wrangle in like a twelve top or something. But yeah,
and then I just once I started when I worked
at Emeralds. When I was here, I just got it
deep into like all the things that they had going
on wine. I did wine for a long time. I

(18:50):
didn't become a swaniyg just because I just I couldn't
do it. I mean I wanted to. I'm just bad
at I always make the excuse some hard but taking tests.
But I was great a drinking wine. But after that,
you know, the learning and being excited when things come
out and meet people who are really all about it
that this gets you really amped to just keep pushing.

(19:10):
And yeah, and that was it for me. I just
kind of wanted to keep going. And and then when
I was, I mean, there's not really more to it,
and that's that's really that simple. The money and then
keep learning and like the cool people you meet and
how it's flexible, like people who go to school part time,
you can still kind of have that shift in your schedule, right,
that really helped keeps you free to do whatever. Sometimes

(19:34):
that availability nice and flexibility that's always good. So with
the beginnings of things, was there one specific cocktail or
something that you created or help create or whatever, or
just maybbe something that's a classic that made you go, oh,
I didn't know this could be like this. I want
to keep going and do my own thing. Mm hmm.

(19:55):
I don't know. So I think something classic. Well, I
always like to stick to the classics, so I just
always go back to it. Um. But when I was
managing a bartman ever passed a long time ago chef.
She's Japanese and I was always excited about what she
was creating the kitchen that I got excited about using
things like she was like, we have to have showed

(20:15):
too in the men I was like, yes, let's do it.
So I did a whole shows you menu for like
like between myself and my other bartender were like, let's
make a couple. And once I started doing, like the flavors,
how they're so different. Um that to me, I was
really proud of that because she was excited about it.
I thought everybody was like, Wow, this is a great
thing to challenge youself for. But I mean, I go
back to, like I said, trying to be a purist,

(20:37):
where I stick to the classics all the time, so
you know, when I always make a great Sasa awesome mcgronian,
people like, man, it's so balanced because you never know
what you're gonna get when you go to someplace. People
try to test you, but you're like, okay, well, like
drinks like that are like the perfect test, right of
like do you actually know how to bartend? Or are
you gonna mess up the easiest dring to make, which

(20:59):
is also at the same time not the exactly so
you know when you got it. People like, oh man,
that's so great. I'm like it should be Bartheners go
to like maybe something I'll make you something that's simple,
that's a classic, that's always I think she'd be always
done properly, and that's how you know, kind of get
into the reader. But I'll Bud, we'll use said classics.

(21:22):
And when Sam you asked the question, the first two
things I thought about we're not necessarily things that I've
loved to make, but they stick out of my memory
from when I was learning, which is Martini, when I
realized that it's not as scary as I thought it was,
um and uh sazarek. I think the like the first

(21:42):
couple of times that I made each one of those
and it was like right and east are good. And
the person that asked me and like totally threw me
off my game. Uh, We're like, yeah, that's great, thank you,
And I was like, okay, cool. That means I can
do this. It's not as bad as I thought. Yeah,
those to like definitely stuck it. So you both. So

(22:03):
I don't know what a satack is. What is that.
It's a classic cocktail. It's started in New Orleans and
it's another one that's like or ingredients. But if you
get the measurements wrong, it's will taste terrible. I don't
mean that terrible, but it won't be right if you
just get the measurements wrong and it's um rye whiskey,
lemon expression, sugar absent patios. Yeah and like that. Yeah,

(22:29):
I mean that sounds scary to me. I'm not gonna
liebs make raises at me. And you were talking about
the menu creation, what know what types of drinks. What
you say, what goes with the Japanese loll It wasn't
a little show took another. It's a where Sage's rice
show to is more like potato um. So there's they

(22:51):
tend to be sometimes really funky or just kind of
one that tastes want that tastes like cherries or like
a light cherry blossom. So it was, yeah, it was.
It was great to even do that tasting because you
just you learn so much from somebody and then you're like, man,
this is great, and then you just you realize your
palates now onto something different, and that was really fun
for me. So yeah, so too fantastic. Yeah, I'm doing

(23:15):
a drink of so True for our fall and you.
And but then also like learning, like tasting things right
next to each other, they're technically the same. Doing that
with a Govey spirits right now. That's what I'm trying
to learn about right now, Like Mescow tequila or I
see you so tall, like holy crap, they're also different,
and it's they're still all from essentially the same spot,

(23:36):
the same plant, and yet they all taste completely different. Yeah,
that's a that is the thing I was tell people.
They always go, what is like tequila was like mescal,
and I go, it's the process. It's the same thing,
but it's just the different process of Megan, and it's
it's going to taste difference from a different part. You
got to give a quick dissertation on that spirit before

(23:56):
they they're convinced to trust you to try it and like,
but put a good experience me And even I'm like,
I'm obviously fascinating. I'm like, what is what is that?
What isn't it cool? Um? So one of the things
on this show, And I feel like maybe you've alluded
to some of the things, but what is it like

(24:17):
being a woman in this industry? And especially like how
has that changed or has it changed? Um? Okay, well,
since I've been done quite some time, it's in the beginning,
it was kind of hard. I didn't see a lot
of female bartuners when I was really hard. I mean
there were a few out there that was really very few.

(24:37):
Like maybe I would go to bart and it was
like one girl, one lady that was back there. Um,
but do you will see like girls or would work
at bars that you know they're boobies are out or whatever.
They're they're kind of said boobies, like I'm twelve, but
and there work already work at like oh Debby places
because I've been doing a long time. Those are kind
of persons that were just kind of, like I said,

(24:58):
slaying drinks, which is fine. You know, you're making your
money and doing your job, and I totally get it.
I'm gonna be probably be a old lady too something,
but so, um, I never really saw somebody who was
doing a craft part of it when I was really
kind of up. So and I had to my mentors guys,
which was fine. You know, they took me in their wing.

(25:19):
It was really cool. And then the different layer for
me was because I was also a black female. Like
that was another thing I had to kind of push
through to convince people that I actually knew what I
was talking about, you know, or you know you do
get men, I don't believe you know anything about Scotch
or because one year girl. And then also who you
you know my name is Keisha. Okay, not your typical

(25:40):
bartender type, but trust me, I know and I have to.
It's for while I was um a struggle to convince
people to trust what you're saying and doing every day
was a debate. I was like Beau District. So it
wasn't you know, after what I just got, you get
over it because you you've already know what the those

(26:01):
that day and that step is going to be. So
it's kind of like whatever. But luckily, you know, I
mean regular, So I know people that know like to say,
he's just maybe something. It's totally cool. But for while
there it was, Yeah, it's it takes a bit to
get people to trust that you know what you're talking
about as a woman. Well, and I can standing next
to a dude we're both working, and I'm like, I

(26:21):
just trained that kid. Why are you asking him questions?
I mean, no, go ahead and ask some questions. I
was like, I'll go, please feel free to and then
they'll defer to me and I'm like, whoever, Like, well,
she's actually my boss, so you know, it just kind
of so it just takes a while for people to
even curd like this. If you're standing to a guy,
they'll automatically look at that guy and and I'm like,

(26:43):
all right, I'll be over here. I'm going to talk
to people who are actually don't care about that stuff.
That's definitely true that like getting people people to realize
that you know what you're talking about is definitely a thing.
And there were times at because I worked at the
Pop City crog before I started a Boxcar, and there

(27:03):
were definitely times when the man standing right next to
me is like they just like I wasn't even there
and they just looked right to him and to my
friend that I worked with, to his credit, he would
usually be like she knows more about that, don't talk
to me, but definitely get that like look past you,
or like weird condescending remarks about like oh, oh, so

(27:26):
you're in school right now, Like, no, this is my job,
this is what I do. But definitely like people not
just trusting that you know what you're talking about, and
sometimes even in like really polite, backhanded ways where like
they asked me a question and then I answer the question,
or like I bring you the drink that you're asking

(27:47):
me about what I talked about, and then they take
a drink like oh, yeah, you're right, you really do
know what you're talking about. Like it's literally my job
to give you what you want in the right way,
Like yeah, us, I didn't just make it up. I
mean they actually come back with I mean, do you
want to dump them back here? Or do you also
have a conversation with about something that you're into. I mean,

(28:09):
it's you can't have it one way, you know, where
do something back there? Who knows what they're doing, they're
making something, and then you want to be confident that
person is going to do you right. You're spending what
twelve bucks would drink b whatever? Eight dollars maybe, but
what if it cost trust and believe? I mean not
to say they probably have not had a bad experience,
but if I'm already starting off with this dialogue, then

(28:32):
it's totally fine. Just keep going. But even when it's
not me because the bar where I am now is
it surprisingly balanced between men and women who are working
behind my bar, which is really nice, but I either
over here or have some of the young women that
I work with like people say I need to I
need to order from the bartender's Like, yeah, that's me,

(28:56):
Like do you want to drink? Because I could just
go to to the other customers and ignore, are you
like when she's clearly the only person working, like you know,
like just dumb stuff like that where they're just like, no, no,
any of the bartender who you're looking for. But you know, yeah,
sometimes reps too, especially in the beer world, just like

(29:17):
go find the dude that's around. Yeah, like, oh, I
cannot Buying beer is kind of tough because those guys,
they're always like beer guys that like either burly or
kind of dudes and whatever they're doing, and they just
never they when we started talking about beer. I'm sure
Katie is even more on top of this TONI, but

(29:39):
they still can't believe that. I'm like, yeah, I have
to buy this stuff to know what I'm talking about.
You know, there's no I'm not just here because they
couldn't figure it out. I don't know, I don't know
they want to, but it's it's just not a thing.
I also, I wish there was more points of view,
like other women that were there's a lazier so they
can tell you probably their experience as well, because I'm

(29:59):
sure this something that if it hasn't happened to me,
somebody either had. I'm sure there's a grab bass situation
somewhere or do you know, I don't just like somebody
like goes out this, so I'd never have my thing
hang out. Some people like you're very concertified, or maybe
you make more tips. Somebody say I make more tips
that I happened. I've I've been to make more tips
if you could, if you showed your cleavage. I've been

(30:21):
told you'd make more tips if you smile more. And
I've been told like, like, do you smile constantly at
your computer, your cubicle while you're working, Like, if I'm
not directly talking to someone, I'm probably not. Just like
like if I'm just over in the well making drinks
straight and the other bartenders are taking care of the guests,
I'm probably not smiling. And it's it's a fine because

(30:44):
you're like, you're in hospitality, so you want to convey,
you want to give off that positive energy of vibe.
But like you're having a good time. But that doesn't
mean that you know, you're consistent. You're gonna look like
a weirdle. Just it's not Yeah. Also on Katy, I'm

(31:06):
gonna look at you every time come to the bar,
and I hope that you're doing finger guns and everyone, Oh,
it's not fun. I got finger gunned by customer one
time at a different job, and he called me sugar,
it's weird, it's great. That is that typical phrase that

(31:26):
you used just to make fun of, like that's the overload.
It was real life and it happened to me. I've
I've been uh. I mean, I don't know if you've
had the same thing, because we're both tattooed in our arms.
I've had people like grab my arms, let me see that,
just like I'm like, we're touching, okay, um, I don't
know why you could let me see what's going on there? Yeah, yeah,

(31:49):
just like yeah, I had I had somebody stand up again,
different job, like many years ago, but someone stood up
in his bar seat, reached over the bar and grabbed
my coworkers hair while she was like bent down grabbing
something on the other side, like on her side. Everyone
that was working like record scratch and we were all
just like, oh hell no, yeah, you need to sit

(32:11):
down and leave. Like wow. So with that, obviously you
guys have touched a lot into this. How how do
you handle when it comes to harassment and do you
see that being is it getting worse to getting better?
Like how do you see that industry today? I mean
I wouln't say it's getting worse. I mean, I think
it's getting sort of better because I mean, just because

(32:35):
obviously been doing this for a while. I don't get
into confrontations with a lot of people. If something like
that happens, I try to be competation less. Somebody's don't
involve up my face is something which doesn't really happen.
Just saying well alma was but that was neither. But um.
I just what I do is just kind of tell
them to leave um or I'm I don't really are

(32:59):
I just ign them for rest of the time that
they did there. I mean, he doesn't get two out
of hand, I'll just like S and now I'm done
with you and I'll passed off to somebody else. So
that's how I kind of im. I just don't want to.
I'm not confrontational. And when I get when I get
genuinely upset, I often like freeze a little bit. My
brain stops and like what do I do? Um, But

(33:20):
it is usually it's like, all right, you just have
to leave, Like if you're bothering bartenders or customers or whatever, like,
you just have to leave. So I actually had an
instant and when I worked at a brewery in which
one of the contexts was older white gentleman was there
on an event that whole big story. But he started

(33:41):
um calling me oriental girl and thought it was funny
and as the way, I'm flirting with me and this
was the thing, and he would like yeah, yeah, So
he kept screaming at me. He kept screaming at me
about it, and finally I just got to the point
because I was told he couldn't leave, like we couldn't
ask him to leave necessarily. That in all, I had
a whole different thing um by one person. And then

(34:03):
of course my female manager was like, no worries and
I'm kicking his ass out, So I will say that.
But at the beginning, when all that was going down,
all I could do was like try to ignore him,
but he kept screaming at me, and I didn't know
what to do. Have you guys had any incidents in
which a you didn't have the support or you did
have the support, What is the usual reaction from your boss's,
let's say, in those situations, And if you didn't, what

(34:25):
was your reaction to do? And how did you handle
that situation? And and even for you as a person
of color, how do you handle when it was obviously
something that that's not experienced by everyone. What do you do?
How do you react? And how? I mean, have you
gone through that? Maybe you haven't. Maybe it's just me, Um,
well I haven't had to me like like just start
yelling about dating in particular, just being a complete dick.

(34:49):
Excuse my language, but but yes and no, because they're
drunk and they're drinking whatever. So again I would ignore
them until it was something to go. Um. And Luckily,
even though the whole thing, customers or guests are kind
of weird, sometimes when you work with good people, they
will and it's such a liberal job, people just will
be supportive of you regardless, like they'll just either have

(35:11):
your back until I've never not had a manager not
stand up for me if I said that guy is
being weird, or like say, I work at Joystick now
and I was just standing there at the jukebox just
because my co work was like, play a song, somebody
alway cool. I go over there and some dude just
comes up and it feels free to grab my butt,
So I was like, so I turned about and grab him.
I'm like, you're out of here, and he goes, oh,

(35:33):
what do you mean why you grabbing me? I was like,
because you just grabbed me, you know, like kind of
like really, I'm like, I'm not gonna find it a
guy or whatever because I shouldn't have to. So I
was like, all right, So luckily there's support what we
had security, but I could's like him, you know, getting out.
So it helps when you do have people that you
work with that are willing to this, don't even ask questions,
they know you felt, yeah, certain way, I don't want

(35:55):
to have a discussion. You need to leave. So luckily, yeah,
I've been in a situation with people that have been
supports because I am also a woman color. Sometime it
is I've been the only one in the room, and yeah,
I tried to you know, I maintain very even kill
kind of the mean York. Then there's there's a whole
other side thing with that too, you know, and all

(36:17):
of a sudden, you're preconceived you've seen is this person
at that bar, and you know you kind of have
to carry that balance, you know, right, because if you're
not you're you're then you're you're not friendly enough that
one angry black person at in the restaurant. You're well,
I don't not gotta be put me in this box.

(36:38):
It's just yeah, so there's a whole other Oh, it's
so it's just in general working at the russauran work
behind the bar, guess sometimes co workers, right, so you're
just gonna you have to realize or try to figure
it out somehow. Yeah, I've been lucky to you having
back up, not recently in my life, definitely, like managers

(37:03):
always had our back when I was younger. Sometimes I
worked at places that had really crappy managers, but the
other people that I worked with were definitely like that
dude sucks. He's got like you know, especially at like
more if you are like a more divvy place where
your managers probably not around anyway, and it probably is
just the far staff who are technically running the restaurant

(37:24):
for the night and like, no, that dude's gone, Like
this guy sucks. Like definitely been lucky with good male
counterparts and friends that I worked with or like no,
you you're with us? Yeah, sure that is great. It's
it's uh anyway because I work in Joseph, because it's
manages aren't always there and I so you have to

(37:46):
kind of we have this is always a united friend.
So what it's gonna be us against you always because
you're not going to be here at the end of
the night, you know. So yeah, I have. I personally
have physically removed dudes from bars, which was weird because
I was like a baby grabbing people like you have
to go, which now I'm at a point where that's

(38:09):
someone else's job, but that's nice. But I feel like
it's mildly important that I had to do it at
some point to like to be the one that's like, no,
you're gone, right, Yeah. I usually just hold the door open,
like uh oh. I like I like grabbed a dude
by the shirt like with two hands and was like
pulling him because because he wouldn't leave a table like

(38:30):
it was it was the whole thing, like he had
he had to be physically removed because he was not
going to leave on his own. Well, oh my god,
that's kind of scary. Also, I was gonna say, and
do they take you seriously, like if you're the one
be like I need you to leave. Oh no, he
super didn't take it. I had to remove him twice
and then um my other bartender, the guy that taught
me had to partend. Then he removed him and he's
a much latter r so that that went do. But

(38:53):
so it took to that point to finally figure out, dude,
really really have to get out just to say I
did it support at the end. But it was a
really weird. My little experience was so weird that throw
me off so badly that I was like, this is
so because I'm also, as you all talked about being
in the bar to interestring, I feel like I have
to I don't I'm not that part of that much anymore,
but I have to be overly entertaining. So therefore that

(39:13):
I can get those tips, Yeah, get that money. You know.
That's like and that seems to be like an open
invitation for the level of boundary crossing that and that
happens in that industry, which is like, how do you
balance that for yourself? Yeah, I will. I don't know
I'm how to do it. It's I guess when you're

(39:35):
over I don't know if we friendly can say that
or you're doing you're you're just being a regular person,
nice person, doing your job. You know, sometimes there are
guys who do take it where the like think you're
flirting to whatever, or you know, they'll oh, of sudden,
you want to get your phone and I'm like, no,
it's not. We're not on a speed date. I'm having

(39:56):
a conversation because you're maybe one of two people at
the bar, you know, chat. You know, it would be
weird if I'm just not talking to you at all.
But yeah, and then but nothing too too much. I
don't think I've had too much of experience when it
gets extra weird. I mean I tried to go there
with people that come to my bar, so I don't know,

(40:18):
kind of just kind of shove it off it only
it happens for a few two I mean, I let
that happen for a few town I won't let it
happen to be it. So yeah, I'm definitely still learning
how to balance that, like because I am not an
overly friendly person, like I am also an introvert, so

(40:39):
I am not the person to immediately just like go
make a new friend or like go walk to a
stranger and start talking um, which is bad because it's
kind of my job. So I'm definitely still learning that
balance of like just nice enough all the time, but
not so nice that it's like You're not the only
person that I'm serving tonight. Like, right, that's the thing too,

(41:03):
Like the art of nicely walking away, just like, oh yeah,
walk behind this thing. If I trained any Bartens, like
you must learn the art of how to disengage, Like, yeah,
walk away because what's gonna happen. It's gonna lose people.
You know, it's a it is a balance between being

(41:26):
friendly and nice to people, Bob, but knowing that you
have to cut them off at one point because they
so you are really into it. They want to talk
to you about everything, all the spirits, all this stuff,
and I love it and I think it's great, but
you know, it's a it's a lot when you have
to do it with like then the next five people
want to say tonight, right, everybody bringing in close. I
got just to say, I don't know, Martin's share what

(41:49):
you learned? Yeah, I want to Bartins who know how
to bring a room together. And it's very impressive. I
love it, Like this is such and such and it's great.
It's a it's a great skill. I'm just like that's
something that I'm not truly envious of, but that that
skill of like being that person behind the bar, like

(42:10):
bring people together, but I'm also learning. Um, I really
love it working with those people because I can be
like cool, go make our tips. I will make every
service cocktail that comes to the bar tonight. You will
be the bright Chinese sunflower that everybody loves and it's perfect.
And let's just be that team. I've been on that team.

(42:31):
That team. We have a little bit more of our interview,
but first we have one more quick break for word
from our sponsor and we're back Nickie Sponsored. Let's jump

(42:52):
back in. Well. I love that piece of advice, like
the art of disengaging. Do you have any ice for
listeners who are thinking about getting into cocktails more? Just
things that you would wish you wish you right now
and we'll get into making cocktails. Um, just the same
thing we've been saying. It was like, if you if

(43:15):
you like to drink, because you're like I want to
be about to like drinking, that's probably not the best
way to get into it because it got it well
only because then you're just there to drink booze. And
I trust me, I can drink. But it I didn't
start off, Yeah, I didn't stop going like I just
want me back there, So I the child booze. You know,
that's don't do that. Um. Then the second thing is

(43:37):
also if you love you're doing, you care about, not
care about, but if you are interested in what spirits
are and where they're from and just the whole process
of because it's a deep dive when you get into it,
you could go. So that's always a great thing. So
I think if you're willing to put the work in
I that's my only one. I didn't go for it,
and to like I said, and also, it's a great

(43:58):
way to keep your thin flexible your hours in your
social life. Well well social life is kind of a
hard balance too, but you just have to know how
to work it in there. That's to say. I know
a lot of people in the industry who are constantly
like gone in opposite schedules of everybody else. So that
seems like not necessarily all the talk most advantageous. Yeah,

(44:19):
just just say if you just just got tog out
the balance, that's really my my cissis if you want
to learn put in at the hours in the time
and learn how to balance your work in social life,
then you could probably do it. I mean, it's not
so we're not out here building a you know, testlas
or well, but I build rocket shifts like I don't

(44:44):
because I just kind of I want to see what
I think that I think that's really good, and then
go go out a lot, but not necessarily in like
a party way, but in a way to observe so
like ghosts, and don't sit at a table set at

(45:04):
the bar and order something that you've never had before
and then watched them make it. And then if they're
not busy, ask some questions like if it's chill and
they seem like they have time to talk to you
a little bit and you're genuinely interested to be like okay,
so like do you mind if I have a tiny
taste of that spirit? Like I've never had that before.

(45:25):
And also Google, Man, the internet is so helpful because
I didn't I didn't learn how to bartend in bars
that we're doing any sort of craft cocktail. So when
I wanted to learn about it, I did it on
my own until like I met people and got involved
voice stuff where that was happening. And I learned a
lot of stuff from watching other bartenders who were really

(45:47):
good at what they were doing, tasting their drinks and
like buying books or going online or trying to find
out stuff. And then once I started doing it that way,
it started happening more work, And like that's a great
way to if you do go sit in front of
somebody who you've seen and like killing it, whether making

(46:08):
how to make drinks at how to kind of work
the room, so to speak, then you should definitely go
see that that persons and definitely ask some questions. It's
it does help because they inspire you. Let see they
really do and especially little things like just like techniques,
not even necessarily recipes or answer spirits or anything, but
like watching people like I'm, like I said, I've only

(46:28):
been bartending for six years, so I'm a still learning
all the time and just watching people who are clearly
professionals and be like, oh, I never thought to do
it that way, and then ask why they did it
that way, And there's definitely a reason, Like it's not
we don't just make stuff make stuff up for no reason.
For the most part, um, there's usually a good reason
for like a particular way of doing something, um and

(46:50):
then putting that in your catalog and using it next
time you go back to work or to make a
cocktail or also home bar. It's really good to have
like a laborate torry at your house. Yeah, I super
I have a lab at my house finger air quotes. Yeah,
but like I have a home bar with a bunch
of stuff, and I do a lot of research and

(47:12):
prep and testing at home. Because when you're at work,
you're busy. Yeah, that's why I supposed to say when
you're not doing when I'm not working. Sometimes i'm working,
I'll like say, if I'm off today and i'm not here,
if I'm thinking about a drink, I will go to
work to try to make it because I'm not working,
so I don't have to worry about doing stuff. So
I could just be like, well, I know these are
things I need and they're all at that bar. So

(47:33):
I've done that. Just drive to work and like okay,
I'm in trying to make this, this and this. Yeah,
and then but because and then you're like, well it
goes my day because that's stuff. Or and then you
inevitably end up either sitting at your bar or like
a friend's bar, and then if that's the other half
of your day, well I'm not gonna this is it
you're do you have a nice buzz on from all
the junks and it's like rush hour now, so clearly

(47:56):
have to sit here. Obvious, that's how usually sometimes these
in the but that's the best way in my world.
So out of curiosity, because we were talking about all
of the people in the mentors, how do you do
you think that the industry as been more and more
inclusive of women of color, of women in general of
the l g B, d U I And if not,

(48:17):
what way could we be more or could they as
an industry be more inclusive or are they doing a
good job as a little as the bar baby at
the table. I feel like lately, like in the last
few years, I feel like I see a lot of
women UM in bars in Atlanta. Obviously, like I said earlier,
I this is the only place I know about UM,

(48:38):
but I feel like I see a lot more than
when I was younger. Lately UM and our programs and
heading bar programs and UM like a lot of the
people that I look up to and like go sit
at their bar or like learn our women in the city.
Like there's obviously there's men as well, But I've thought
about I sat down and thought about it the other

(48:59):
day and like a lot of the people who I
really admire what they're doing are women. Yeah, um, yeah,
I think so, because even women who way back when,
like the few that we're doing it, like say back
in the eighties or even before that. There's you can
probably find one book and there's all five of them
in that book that runs from like the twenties to

(49:21):
like eight eight So like like there's one was the
Ida Coleman who did the hanky panky thing. She's in
a book and she's that was it. That's the other
on any other one I knew after that was or
Artie Saunders from the eighties. And now, I mean there's
this huge gap. I'm sure these ladies in between all
of that. But you know, she became she does like
the the Pegoo Cub in New York, and she's worked

(49:43):
with Dildograph and all these guys that and but she
had to work her way into just being that probably
one female at the time that was even doing anything
because we don't hear any other names for at certain points,
and I mean, I know, I'm not the biggest cocktail historian,
so I was throwing a cup of names out there,
But I guess now it is more inclusive. There are
definitely bars where you know they're uh, the l G B,

(50:05):
t Q communities, you know, very present, and the bars
where there are only women. Like where was I One
night I was working at Rational Gime and I was
working with another girl, was like, is this an all
girls staff tonight? Oh my god, It's so great because
I We've got a lady in and we had like
two girls service. It was like ladies night and it

(50:25):
was just really it was it was amazing. We we
just had so much fun. It was it's kind of
like this sting. So yeah, I guess you're right. Then
it's getting to a point where are a lot of
female artists nowadays. I mean, there was a competition I
went to a couple of weeks ago where the females
dominated pretty much the whole competition. I don't know if

(50:46):
you went to that deck off. I was about to
say it was I didn't go, but I heard about it.
But it was like there was probably I don't know
this equal amount of guys two girls, but they just
took out the boys one by one until the last
person was left. I was like, this is pretty awesome.
It took a while for for that to be a thing,
but one for ladies to be in competitions quite a
bit because even when I don't do a lot of

(51:09):
that's not really my bag. Some of my competitions just
I don't know, I just so I can't. I don't.
I don't enjoy them. I just get too nervous. But um, yeah,
it's it's very much more inclusively them. There's a thing.
I went to another one. I wish Tiffany was here
because she was a judge, this one where it was
like all gay bar tinners like, so it was really cool,

(51:33):
um to see something like that, um because you know,
even that I've never seen that before anywhere, Like it
was just granted it was mostly men, which I was like,
well come on, but it was still you know, it
was just that that was the thing, which was pretty cool.
And they got who the guy who won got a
cool price, So it was really amazing to kind of

(51:53):
see that. So yeah, I guess maybe a nice upwards
kind of a deal, but still helpeful. Yeah, and the
bars I go to, if i i've it's always straight
white males back there. Yep. I'm just like, no, no,
nobody go and it's cool. I mean it is what
it is. I mean they're not gonna go back this

(52:14):
throwing a political statements at borrow what I'm drinking the
best idea it doesn't combine well huh um, and then
just give you a one letter what's your the worst
drink to make? To make? Yeah? When you when a
when a person comes in and says I want this
do what makes your eyes roll over? I feel like

(52:38):
I feel like two different. Yeah. I don't know, because
there's so many drinks. Like if you'd asked me like
four years ago, I would have said one thing and
then I'm like, no, who gives it? Fine? I don't
know if there's anything that I like. It's hard to make,
but things that I'm tired of making long islands and
leaveon drops just because they're really boring and not because

(52:59):
I'm like not to like yug your yum or whatever.
That's such a dumb phrase. I'm sorry, what make that up?
That's a thing? What? Okay? Keep? Every time I do interviews,
I feel like there's one friight that I'm like, what
is this phrase? Like the suburban mom version of saying
like not to King shame um. Like if you like

(53:19):
Long Islands, cool whatever, but it's just really boring. It
doesn't really taste like anything. Lum jobs don't really taste
like anything. And I think the main reason is because
like I took so much time to build this spending
just order something that I made because they're really good.

(53:41):
They wouldn't be on this paper if if they weren't good.
But it's mostly stuff like that that I just want
people like Tiffany was saying the other day about like
like go of the past to try something new, like yeah, yeah,
I want to the knew drug because they people ordered
things like that because they don't know not that they
don't know, you better, just doesn't know anything. So they're

(54:02):
like they get to is alright fine, And also it
has all the ingredients in it, so it is it's
also a bus right and the same thingre I don't
think at this point I've made all jinks maybe a
thousand times over, so I'm not it's I can make whatever.
Just if you want to find you got it. You

(54:24):
got it. So you asked me like three years ago,
I probably would have said, like mohito or something, but
I don't care. I like, because people, do you hate
making Mohito's always get that question. I'm like, no, make
it all the time, so I have it down to
a science. It ju be in your face in two
seconds ago. The only the only thing I hate about Mohito's.
But really it's not just Mohito's. It's kind of summer

(54:45):
in general. Is meant itself in the butt. Yeah, just
like as a gurrant, because it's like you have to
be really good to it, like you have to talk
to it real sweet wilt in the middle of your shift,
and like it goes back really fast, and then inevitably
you just get like sad crushed up mint stuck in everything. Yeah.

(55:08):
So it's not the Mohito's fault. It's the mint's fault.
Men just wants you. Yeah, it's good to know the worst.
I'm a tolerant to mint, so this makes me happy.
So you are not a problem. Yeah, oh yeah it is.
I've already made I don't know how many old fashions
within this last week. I mean that's the thing. It's

(55:29):
it's not hard to make. But if somebody's on a kick,
I've done it. Like you, somebody come out on it.
Two here, and you get five more on aside, I'm like,
I love it. You like this really boozy conta. I
love making them. It's in my wheelhouse. I think it's fantastic.
But I know, if even know something else, there's another
whiskey cocktail there. We promise the fashion are totally like

(55:51):
the yawn of the cocktail, but like the contain, Like
as soon as somebody at a table and they're like, oh, yeah,
well fashion, let's do that, and then one runs into
six and you're like, oh crap, you couldn't just order
mo all once. Yeah, it's just it's a It's one
of those things that I do enjoy making. Number. Sometimes
it does get a little bunch because you try to

(56:11):
tell you, well, here's another one you want want to
get into a trial, or here do you like gin
and they don't want to do that, or something on
those lines. But yeah, I don't I really hate making
anything anymore. It's just kind of they're there. That brings
us to the end of our long awaited at least
for us, we've been trying for a few months. I

(56:33):
know women in the Alcohol Industry episode, Like we said,
after we recorded this in the studio, we went and
had a cocktail hour and we recorded some more with
some even more fantastic women in this industry. So that
episode will be coming up soon um. In the meantime,

(56:54):
we would love to hear from you. You can email
us that Stuff Media mom Stuff at I heart media
dot com. You can find us on Twitter at mom
Stuff Podcast and on Instagram at Stuff One never told you.
Thanks as always to our super producer Andrew Hammer, Thanks
to our interviewees, Yeah, thanks Katie and Kisha, and thanks

(57:15):
to you for listening. Steph Owner told you the protection
of I Heart radias how Stuff works. For more podcasts
from my Heart Radio is the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast,
or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.