August 22, 2019 • 39 mins
Don't underestimate the value of women supporting women. Anney and Samantha talk the power of uplifting and ampilfying the voices of other women.
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Speaker 1 (00:04):
Hey, this is Annie and Samantha, and welcome to stuff
I've never told to your protection of I Heart Radio's
how stuff works. Samantha and I have just gotten back
from a very long trip, so long that I've lost
(00:24):
my voice almost completely. Yes, between the yelling at our
conference to the screaming at the rides that you made
me go on, and like I forced you to do
something you didn't want to do, I feel like a
couple of those rides where I was tricked into I
would never do such a thing. Yes, we were in
No Orlando for podcast movement Spider trying to kill me
(00:46):
the Spider. Yeah, I remember that whatever Harry Potter ride
with Bidden Journey. You didn't tell me about that, and
I got to ride the new Harry Potter ride. I did.
She lift the glory And it's partly through the support
of Samantha, because you're the one that told me, whatever
is going to happen. You've got to write that right.
(01:07):
Look after the many discussions and the fact that your
face kind of fell when you thought you weren't going
to be able to do it, and I'm like, no,
it has to be done, and it was done. And
that's kind of what we're talking about today is women
supporting other women, which is something very important to both
of us because women are and have been frequently conditioned
(01:29):
to compete with other women for jobs for men, which
is yes, very heteronormative. In this UM for success, I
have witnessed example after example of this. I have been
a part of this UM. A great example is calling
a woman a horror slut when she sleeps with a man,
but not judging the man in the same way. But
(01:50):
more and more women are calling it for what it
is BS and they're supporting other women right And we're
so excited, So we wanted to talk a little bit
about the positives of women supporting women UM again. We
last week we went to Orlando for our little conference.
It was a little it was huge. We had a
lot of free T shirts now you are. I've been
(02:12):
wearing mine pretty happily and it's been amazing. And one
of the things that we got to do was be
on a panel with our podcasts from our FAM podcast world.
Is that what we would call it, don't network networks.
I want to call it something else. I wanna be
my own, my fam. This is my podcast fam UM
ethnically ambiguous Anna and Sharene, And it was so fun
(02:33):
to get to know these women that we kind of
know from AFAR because they're based out of l A
and we're in Atlanta, and so being able to like
sit and talk with them into like actually bond has
been phenomenal and just the idea of hearing where they're
coming from and how hard they've worked in the same
way with all of us where we come from. It's
really beautiful just to be able to get together and
(02:54):
to actually push each other and like support each other.
And I think that it was important that we come
back and had that as an actual discussion. Yeah, because
the panel we did um was on something we talked
about recently, podcaster imposter syndrome. And most of the people
who were there were women, and it was early in
(03:17):
the morning, so early. A couple of our a couple
of our coworkers showed up as well, but it was
it was so nice to just have that crowd and
see women supporting other women. One of the people who
showed up was Savers Laura Vocable, Yes, and she was
there with us one percent of the time to support us.
She was and she is not a morning person. She
(03:39):
would not mind me telling you that she is not
morning person. It meant a lot to me. She was fantastic.
So what we're talking about is women supporting other women,
and there is a lot of research into this. Studies
have shown that women who support other women find more
success when it comes to business, and that women benefit
more from collaboration as a posed to competition. Woman with
(04:02):
a squad or a close enter circle of female friends
are more likely to get executive positions that pay more money.
Data has not shown the same to be true for men,
and it's floked into it. It just hasn't shown that
same relationship for correlation. Having other women to turn to,
for example, when it comes to negotiating contracts, has been
incredibly valuable for me. Yeah, me too. Not only did
(04:25):
I have valuable advice from other women, but my contract
was handled by a badass woman who was a friend
of mine, who came to bat for me and really
fought to make sure of my contract was as fair
as it could be. So it's fantastic, oh absolutely, And
for women, having this group of close friends is one
way to combat the systems of bias that we face,
whether it's through offering advice and mentorship, having each other's
(04:47):
backs are offering words of encouragement. Yeah, I think it's
another testament to not filling alone having a support group
though at all. Past host Christen and Caroline did an
episode on the shine theory, which is in essence that
women support other women shine UM. Women who don't support
other women, who believe that women fundamentally can't get along
and or there's only room for one at the top
(05:08):
are frequently called queen bees. There are some mixed usages
of that that phrase, but for for our purposes here.
UM studies have found that women prefer male bosses at
large when it comes to work situations, Specifically, since women
are still underrepresented, there can sometimes be a sense that
women have to compete for the quote, one spot on
(05:28):
the board, or whatever it is. Some studies show that
men generally are more biased against women in professional settings,
but when it comes to a confident man and a
confident woman, they have no preference. However, women never, repeat
never chose the confident woman versus the confident man. M Yeah,
that's that shows something Yeah, not great. This also comes
(05:55):
with the favoritism threat that women publicly helping other women
will be seen as an act of favorite is m
or bias. Right, And then you know, while we call
this favoritism and biased, we have the boys club and
that doesn't seem to be a negative idea. It's such
a weird like connotation of being together and being fat
pulling each other up. Yet when women do it, it's
favoritism or sexist, not sexist, that's the word. That's the
(06:16):
other way. It could be that way, actually, but you
know that it is not such a negative connotation. Yeah,
And research across one thirty seven societies found that of
female competitive acts were targeted towards other women, and the
history of women hating other women, of undercutting and under
miming other women is a long one, starting in Victorian times.
(06:40):
While romantic relationships between women were celebrated, they were also
viewed as short lived and superficial. Appropriation for a quote
real marriage with a Man from the eighteen sixty eight
book The Friendships of Women, written by a male minister,
I was often struck both by the small number of
recorded examples of the sentiment among women and by the
commonness of the express bill that strong natural obstacles make
(07:01):
friendship a comparatively feeble and rare experience with them, or
criminal woman, the prostitute, and the normal woman, also written
by a man quote. Due to women's latent antipathy for
one another, trivial events give rise to fierce hatreds, and
due to women's irascibility, these occasions lead quickly to insolence
(07:23):
and assaults. Women of high social station do the same thing,
but they're more refined. Forms of insults do not lead
to law courts. Yeah, okay. At this time when women
couldn't own property or much of anything really, or they
couldn't have jobs. In most cases, competing for men that
could provide was a matter of life and death. Or
(07:44):
it could be sex workers were blamed for selling the
representation of other women, and women in charge of those
sex workers frequently cheated other women out of their wages.
Researchers have put forth two main theories for why this
rivalry exist. The first is evolutionary psychology a k. We
(08:04):
have to protect our wombs, so indirect aggression is the
way to go, or the feminist psychology theory basically that
it's internalized misogyny uh internalized mail, gays society teaching women
their value and identity, is wrapped up in their attractiveness
to men, which in turn makes them compete against each
other for men. I also read this huge, huge essay
(08:25):
about the economics of sexual reality and it was too
much future episode. But whoa, whoa, whoa. Another part of
this is self competition. When you see a woman you
think it's prettier, smarter, and or better than you, you're
really competing against yourself, but you're projecting it onto her.
Other researchers highlight that too. Other things that differentiate female
(08:49):
competition from male competition is that women with a higher
status or higher attractiveness have less of an incentive to
invest in other women and enforced social isolation on a
new competitor. That's the second reason ignoring a new attractive
coworker at the office or something like that. And most
of the studies around this competition between women does suggest
that women frequently judge around looks. One study found that
(09:13):
participants judged a woman in sexy attire much more harshly
than a woman in a T shirt and jeans, and
they were the same woman just the group's first blit up. Um.
They largely ignored the woman in the T shirt and
jeanes so you can be ignored or harshly judged. Yeah,
and also promiscuity. Of course, we can't forget that pretty
(09:33):
harsh judges, right, of course. Uh, and this guy be
wondering about things. Terms we use in our language like catfight,
which is according to dictionary dot com, and intense fight
our argument, especially between two women, and this was first
used in eighteen fifty four. Or similarly, if you look
at Caddie Worctionnary dot com defines that as a subtle
(09:53):
hostility and an effort to hurt annoy are upset, particularly
among women, and list bitchy as a semn him which
is also pretty usually pretty directed towards women. For what
it's worth, which is probably very little. Most actual cat
fights are between unutered male cats, which is right. Yes,
thank you for supporting me. If you're curious why women
(10:19):
seem to have this connection with cats, and you're probably
curious why the podcast is going in this way, but
this is just how my mind was sometimes, Uh, in
our language, like because there's cougars and crazy cat Lady
as well, there are a couple of things at play,
and one is cats are perceived as being cunning, selfish,
and the sounds they make less aggressive than dogs, which
is the animal they are most usually compared to. On
(10:40):
top of that, a paper out of Brown University by
Jennifer Lopez Rodriguez, looking into Spanish and English metaphors for
animals as women, came up with this bit in a
section called women as Pets. Within the animal world, pets
enjoy a privileged position. In fact, pets are not conceived
of as beast or burden, nor are they killed for
their meat or skin on the kind trade. Pets share
(11:00):
the same roof as their owners, and their main function
is to keep people company. This benevolent attitude towards pets
find its way into the English language, for the very
word pet is used as a term of endegrement. So
that's the cat aside for this episode. I like that.
Thank you for getting that information. I know nothing about cats. Okay,
let's move on from cats. Uh. I did want to mention,
(11:22):
of course, not like other girls. We've we touched on
that a lot. Are people who say, and I had
a friend who used to say this, even though I
was a friend, I don't make friends with other women.
And she would usually specify it was because they were dramatic,
or they cause a lot of drama, right, are that too?
Or they were too jealous of me? Or oh yeah,
or that the guys. She gets alone better with guys
because you know she has some interests as guys, she's
(11:43):
not goally enough, right right, right, Yeah, we all probably
have those those people in our lives. And um, I
think you could look at pretty much any magazine cover
for an example of our society perpetuating this idea that
women do compete. We're all about cat fights, Like I
feel every time I'm checking out of the store these days,
(12:05):
I see something about Kate Middleton and Meg and Marco fighting,
you know, things like that. Of course they can't like
each other, how dare are they? Yeah, it's impossible, impossible. Well,
we do have some examples of good relationships women supporting women,
so it is actually possible. But first we have a
quick break for a word from our sponsor, and we're back,
(12:40):
Thank you sponsor. And yeah, we did want to share
some some examples, some positive examples, starting with actress. All right,
I'm one of the things that I love, and I
remember the story with Jessica Chesting doing the mini Mini
talks about wage gap in the celebrity slash Just an
Actor World and the differentiation um. She actually had a
conversed sation with Octavia Spencer during one of the women
(13:03):
Breaking Barriers panel in which they had a really frank
discussion about the wage gap when he came to gender,
but Octavia had kind of correct her. There's a gender
gap when it comes to wages, but there's also the
um race gap. So even though Jessica make it paid less,
Octavia got paid even less than her. And so as
(13:24):
a way of showing solidarity, Jessica helped negotiate for their
next movie a new salary for both of them, which
was five times more than the original offer. Right, And
that's kind of like one of those moments of like, yes, finally,
let's let's have this moment of empowering each other by
supporting each other for people who can't maybe can advocate
for themselves. So when we had this conversation with other
(13:46):
white women advocating for women of color, that's fantastic. Or
for assist women to come out and advocate for those
who are identifying as females or Nauti's accepted. I think
it's such a big and powerful way to do things.
And I just love that story as we Yes, here's
one issue, but here's a deeper issue. But yeah, just
empowering each other and fighting for each other, which is awesome. Yes.
(14:08):
Another great example was the US Female the US Women
gymnasts supporting each other during the Larry Nasca trial and
just you know, tweeting support or being there and pretty
much saying, you know, I, um, if you win the gold,
I am so happy for you. Like it was. It
was really it was a sad thing, but it was
(14:29):
nice to see them on supporting each other, coming together
as a real team on fighting this huge issue, which
is fantastic. And then there's tennis. It's tennis, and you know,
I think I've spoken I have. I've spoken about Serena
Williams before when she had that argument with the ref
and then having to come back and apologize, but then
the most recent match with her at the Cincinnati Masters
(14:50):
where she had to retire because she got a back injury. Um,
the scene afterwhere Bianca and Jesscue and she are talking
is such a great encouraging, encouraging support. Seen Bianca sitting
there talking with her and supporting her and get just
encouraging about obviously, what do you say. It's the right
of Williams, who was just a badass all together. But
she comes into like, hey, I'm so sorry this is happening,
(15:11):
but thank you so much, you know, just the build up,
even though their competitors like just truly being sportsmanlike and
giving love to each other. Another thing that I found
that I really liked, And this is from someone who
is generally a little wary of social media. It takes
a lot for me to get on there. Um, when
(15:33):
om the Selim tweeted about being at a bar and
receiving unwanted attention from some dude, a woman she didn't
know came up to her and pretended to be her
friend to get Amanda to clear out any did, and
so many women responded to that tweet with similar stories
of women supporting women. I love it just what they're
being harassed on the streets and coming in and swooping
(15:54):
in and walking with them to wherever next. I love
those moments. I do too. And then they're politics, like
supporting women running running for office, things like Emily's list. Yeah,
maybe being too optimistic at the beginning of this, however,
having moments of watching Warren and Hairs taking pictures with
each other or standing up for each other, Gilly Brand
(16:14):
splitting her tissue with Hairs during a debate, like stuff
like that, and then even the Vogue photo alone, which
has them all together in a room in such a
strong manner and united, it makes me want to applaud.
I'm like yeah. And then there was a conversation that
happened in eighteen how it was really difficult for women
to find their space in politics as they're trying to
(16:35):
represents themselves because their voices seemingly are being drowned out.
There are these different stories of how underwhelmed the female
candidates were in getting support from their Democratic Party UM
and many other running candidates had to create their own network,
support through other women who are also campaigning, which is
both disheartening and encouraging. I mean, there's hope, and we
(16:56):
have to keep pushing forward, but the fact that they
had to create their own network to have some people
backing them, and and they were all like on different
opposing seats and different levels, and yet through the campaigns
or through UM whatever they were trying to do. I
think there was a panel which brought a lot of
women together to talk about how they wanted to be,
how do they want to run? And they started like
(17:18):
exchanging numbers and cars because they knew they needed each other,
and like they created lifelong friendships essentially by supporting each
other in this moment where no one else kind of
understood how but that this difficult would be, how difficult
this would be, especially right now. And then the people
who are supposed supposed to support them, they're not doing it.
But you know, as sad as that is, women uplifting women,
(17:40):
it makes a huge difference. We've seen it. We've seen
some good changes. Oh absolutely, And going back to what
you said about boys clubs and some we're at the
end of the episode, we're gonna get into this more
about some advice I've seen is creating these spaces for
women to make those connections and to help support each other,
even like in companies and universities all over, and it's
women taking the initiative and saying we need this, let's
(18:05):
make it happen, and we can help other women. I
love that. Another example we love is of a nice
lunkat um she escaped female genital mutilation and went on
to say, fifteen thousand girls in Kenya from the same
procedure and helped change how it is viewed, even helping
band mentioning the procedure in messi oral tradition. On top
(18:27):
of that, she was integral and creating a ceremony that
celebrates the transition into womanhood um with with singing and
dancing and much more of a positive thing. And whatever
you think about Taylor Swift uh and whether or not
some of these things she's done are like legit or marketing,
she has made a show of supporting other women were
(18:49):
first getting in fights with a life of them, but
then publicly apologizing, like with Nicki Minaj or Katie Perry.
I gassed aloud when I was watching music video and
Katie Perry s, did you really? Yeah, She's She's just hamburger,
I know, And I was like, they're hut. You know.
There was a lot and I think you're not on
on social media, but there was a lot of like
(19:09):
hents between them sending each other all the wrench and
I think cookies were involved, which I would take cookies
any day, which is an apology. And then you know,
Adele yes like being so such a big fan of Beyonce,
I mean, how can you not be though? Respect? Respect?
But it is nice to see uh, And I like
even in and Taylor supposed new songs. She says something about,
(19:32):
like all you people on theirnet comparing, comparing all of us,
we we figured it out and we all got crowns.
Back up, back up, you have a crown, you have
a ground? Do you have a crown? I wanted that
ground from the party. And there was a body at
a party were recently at just wearing a crown the
entire time. Wonder you were jealous? But he he brought
(19:54):
his own crown to be fair. He rocked it really well.
He did. So now we know, always have a crown
on your person in case. Yes, new new motto, UM
and the meto era brought a lot of support for
women with that. I believe her as a part of
that as well, for many of the women who still
had to fight to be believed. But but watching all
these different women and even today I see it Um
(20:15):
when different things are rising up in different issues or
when different controversies have happened, I'm still using. I believe her,
and I see that many women are the ones that's
behind it. And it's a beautiful thing, even though sometimes
it's said that it has to be birth from such
a nasty, nasty or deal. Another example is volunteering as
abortion escorts. And while I was researching this episode, I
(20:40):
went down such a girl supporting girls rabbit hole and
it was so beautiful and I teared up. Um. Recently,
we were at the airport and a random woman came
up and asked us if we were dancers or models
because we were beautiful and had nice posture. And it
was the best. It really was. It was me you
and Lauren and having her come out out of nowhere
(21:01):
because I first thought she was gonna just ask us
a random question about right, and then she's like, are
you all things? You have such a good posture, and
I was like this is I was getting ready to leave,
but thank you so very much. I love it. And
it was so nice because it was so unexpected anyway,
because I didn't look like I was ready to dance
on like that. I'm like ready to go to sleep. Yeah,
(21:21):
Never underestimate the power of a genuine compliment that is
not like looking to get something else out of it.
And that's the other thing. I think it's nice if
you see something that is nice. It's gonna be awesome.
Now I'm not gonna say at the time, but I
know I've had many of moments when someone complimented my hair,
complimented my outfit or whatever, and it's super also all
(21:45):
thank you. Of course, I always ended awkwardly because I'm
an awkward to person, but I genuinely remember it, and
from then on I'm like, oh, that made me feel
really nice. Yeah, And it's such a easy thing to do,
easy way to really brighten someone. Actually, this week when
we went to do the podcast, we did the panel
and I came off and one of our listeners came
up and said hello and and and was really encouraging,
(22:07):
and I was like, then made me feel so good.
Thank you because it was our first panel, and uh,
I think it went really well. But I was nervous
at first. I was shake We all were. But you
were just noticeable because you had paper and had the paper.
I was the nerd that came with the printed out
doctor Well, you were moderating, so you had to remember
the questions. The rest of us got off. Scott Easy
(22:27):
just been like, we're just gonna answer you a question,
blah blah, blah, but yeah, that really meant a lot
to come up afterwards. We do also see this in
our media other than like magazine coming rights, but like
mean girls was one of the first things that came
to mind for me. Um. But then there's also kind
of the more negative side, things like Real Housewives. Right.
(22:51):
I was just thinking about like the travelinghood of sister
or something. Thank you. I knew there was something to
do with that, But the fact that they're actually friends
in real life, I love that. I mean, like, I've
never seen this movie. I had to get the premise,
and I think it's beautiful, but I love that whole idea. Um.
And for all of its faults, Sex in the City,
that's one of the things I loved about it. And
I wanted my core group of friends to live together
(23:13):
for the rest of our lives and talk about our
bad sex lives or good sex lives hopefully yes, yes,
any kind of alcohol to be honest. Um. But then then, yeah,
you've got the other ones such as Heathers. I want
to go back the old school days where they all
trying to kill each other. What have you ever seen Heathers? No,
it's a good eighties classic Christians. Later, one on a
(23:34):
writer way back when, and this is it's this click
of girls named Heather and then one girl Veronica. I
think it's her. It's one on his character and they're
all very rich and very snobby people, and then they
all end up like slowly trying to kill each other.
But it turns out to be I won't throw I won't,
I won't ruin the plot for you, quess you should watch.
It's actually really fun. They all trying to kill each
(23:56):
other so they can only be one Heather. Well, there's
a queen bee as there's a queen of it, and
so everybody's kind of like stacking to see who's the top.
I remember, it's been a minute. But it's a good
movie by eighties standards. I need to put that as
a preface because then you're like, oh, hell, there's a
lot of really big problems in this movie. By eight standards,
it was really good. Watch it and I'll see I
(24:18):
see a lot of people still dressing up at slow characters.
Oh really yeah. Uh. When I was thinking about this episode,
I was trying to think of examples in my life
of this happening to me, of of women being like
cruel to me or or me being cruel to women.
And I feel like for me, people were mean as
to me when I was in middle school and then
(24:40):
early high school, and then in college I was I was.
I don't think I was ever purposefully. I just had
some like not like other girls, and I would kind
of make fun of women I saw competing for male
attention in a way that wasn't very kind. Um. That
was like my freshman year of college. But I got
(25:02):
out of it pretty quickly because that and that's the
thing that we're all taught this way of life of
like judging other women, and I did it, and that
sometimes I still have to check myself and be like that,
why are you thinking that this is unnecessary? You're not
a judge or jury of any of these. Let people live.
But it's so hard sometimes when it's ingraining you that
(25:23):
you have to live by the standard, and the only
way to compare and to see if you're living by
that standard is to compare to the other people again,
because it's your own projection of what you should be,
and it's so absurd and it's very absolutely the patriarch
to like taking us down, telling us we're trying to
all fight for second place because we're never gonna be
number one. That's the white man, right right, and so
(25:44):
we're all trying to get the sick oft spot. So
it's just seemingly it's such an ugly, ugly idea, but
it's really hard to get past it. But progress is
to be able to check yourself. Yea, that is ugly. Yeah,
and that that's that's some really good advice to kind
of a hey, why am I thinking this? What's really
going on? And we have even more advice for you,
(26:05):
but first we have one last quick break for work
and more sponsor and we're back, Thank you sponsor. There
is a lot of write up right ups. There are
(26:27):
a lot of right ups excuse me out there about
women and how to support other women, especially in professional settings.
So if you if this is something that's been on
your mind or that you would like to work on
the internet is there for you. But we do have
some that we want to include. One is make making
connections with other women a priority. And this is something
(26:48):
that I have started doing, especially if I see like
a woman in a in a conference setting or something like, oh,
this woman is doing badass stuff. There aren't too many
other women in here when you go talk to her, Right,
I got to finally meet the ladies of stuff you
miss in history class, Tracy and Holly, and they've become
my favorite people's They're they're fantastic, they're hilarious, and they're
(27:11):
just genuinely kind people. And it's way to meet those
kinds of people. So, yeah, you gotta keep your eye
out and be like, I know you're gonna be a
valuable asset and I want to be a part of
your life. Yeah, And part of making things a priority,
and this was a huge lesson for me, is making
time for it and following up on it. Because it's
easy to get somebody's business card and then just move on.
(27:31):
But if you if you really want to follow up
with somebody, then do that. Then do that. Be a
mentor or a sponsor for other women. Um. I was
a mentor in college and it was so so so rewarding, right,
it really really was. So I I recommend that and
being available for anybody who is new in your office
or your profession, whatever might be, and like say, hey,
(27:53):
if you ever want to sit down with some coffee
and talk about things, I'm available. You're probably my mentor
because I don't know what the hell I'm doing. Would
you like to sit down with coffee and think about things? Okay?
I would rather have about well, I know, but perhaps
in most professional settings, start with coffee, okay. Um, recommend
(28:17):
other women for jobs and amplify the voices of other
women exactly. Search out women you admire, Consume things created
by women, by things made by women. Yeah. We were
recently at Dames and Dregs and there was an artist
alley that was all women and my friend top she
bought a lot of art. Yeah. And that's one of
(28:37):
the things I liked about that festival. It's bringing out
as many different women in different professions. We had different
female DJs, which is fantastic. We had those who identified
as women doing performances, which was even one more wonderful. Um.
We had a lot of the breweries had their female
employees create their own beers to to highlight their brewery
(28:58):
as well as their skills. And I think it's fantastic
to have something that you can actually just support women,
um and support their craft. Um. Then there's also being
a role model for girls and women, and some examples
I saw of this particularly in the business sense. Sit
in front of sent in front at meetings, speak up,
encourage other women to speak up, Remind people where an
(29:20):
idea came from. And this was Samantha's idea. Yeah, yeah,
that's a big one. Awesome organizations that foster mentorship for
women and girls and those who identifies as such, and
just a few of those would be girls school. She
should run girls who are at camp smart girls. And
also to add the Trevor Project Listen and trans Women
of Color Collective. I think it's better just to get
a bigger, bigger lists and just to throw out and
(29:43):
get highlight some of those good things that's going on, uh,
and kind of going off of that, celebrating and highlighting
the successes and accomplishments of other women. Women frequently don't
get the credit they deserve. And if they voice that
they think they might be accused bragging, they probably actually
will be accuster bagging. There's there's science behind that, that's
not just me saying that. Um, And I feel like
(30:04):
I'm bragging all the time when I talk about stuff
I've done. And there is even a quote in a
newspaper somewhere of me saying how uncomfortable I was doing
the interview because I felt like I was bragging. Really, yes,
so it's pretty pervasive. So having someone kind of do
it for you or help you celebrate or recognize those
successes is great. If you find yourself labeling a woman
(30:26):
a shrill, bossy, bitchy, again, check yourself, ask why, find
specific example of them doing that if there is one,
and ask yourself if you would feel the same way
if it was a man that had done it right.
Science shows that women not supporting other women can lead
to negative health outcomes and absentee is um at work,
So this is a pretty big deal. In the words
(30:47):
of Metal and Albright, there is a special place in
hell for women who don't help other women. Yeah, and
activating so many articles about women who don't like women,
which is what we were talking about earlier, or why
women compete with women. It's pretty clear the level of
self hatred there is for these types of women. It
seems like it's almost like it's brainwashing for women. The
game is competing again, like for second place behind men,
(31:08):
so it's not that we will ever, so it's kind
of like, oh, we don't even try to compete with men.
We just got to compete with women, and that's the
only way we can get ahead, which is an absurd
idea that was from way back when. Yeah, and a
lot of articles I read, um, and I know this
is going to be controversial, bought up Hilly Clinton and
how when she was first lady her approval rating was
(31:32):
so high, and then when she tried running for president
so um and things like that. And I have had
female friends tell me that they dread working with female
bosses because they've had terrible experiences with female bosses who
treated women awfully. Right, Um, So that that makes my
(31:53):
heart hurt. We should be helping each other, right, But
I think it's just the same, Like I've had really
bad malby. That's the sad part is that level of
women they still are in the mind of I got
here because of I went out over this other woman,
and this is not always always the case, but I
think that's the old school idea and it's still pretty prevalent, unfortunately,
(32:17):
which has to be completely diminished. Yeah, And I I've
also when I first got this job, I was the
only woman in the department, and there was a weird
sense of like pride about that, like Oh yeah, I'm
the only one, and now I'm older and wiser, and
I'm so happy I'm the department. But there is also
(32:41):
kind of that thing feeling like you're quote special. Um. So,
and I also just want to say here, I am very,
very very competitive. This isn't against like competition at all,
but it's for like healthy competition and also colever ration
and lifting at people where they deserve to. Competition is
(33:04):
not wrong. No, and again the healthy competition, as you
talked about being sportsmanlike, is very very important. It is
this detriment of like all or nothing type of mentality
of I've got to be this completely and I must
destroy in order. And I don't think that's everyone. No, no,
absolutely don't. Um, but I think that's the idea that
(33:25):
whether it's the patriarch saying you should be that way
or whether it's women being taught this is the only
way you know that is as a dangerous part. But yeah,
there's good competition, and that's okay. We have plenty of
competition when it comes to feminist podcast I love it, yes, yes,
and uh we do have some solid podcast to shout out.
(33:48):
So yeah, that's while we're here. Um, with that, we
want to shout out to the different people in podcasts
we adore because I think it's important to acknowledge others
that have been here with us, or others who are
continuing on good things and just being able to share. Hopefully.
We did listeners of some other types of um women
out there, other types of some other women out there
doing their thing again ethnically ambiguous, which is fantastic, our
(34:11):
own Anna Sharne. She they do some amazing shows and
have some really great guests. Bectel Cast, which any you
are a guest host on that talking about Marvel right
the Avenger. See I need this, I didn't. I listened
to you um of course Savor oh you know, oh
you know Savor um unladylike, which is the former host
Caroline and Kristen, and then of course our old host
(34:32):
Emily who was with Bossed Up now and then Bridget
wonderful Bridget who's working with Afro punk and she has
some huge projects. I follow her on the twitters. She
got some big stuff coming and love it. Um unpopular
with our own ease female first ease. Stuff you missed
in history class which I talked about Tracy and Holly
are amazing. That's what she said. Is another podcast we
(34:53):
listened to as well as I want to give a
shout out. Um. When we released our podcaster Imposter Syndrome
Women in the Podcasting World, gender gap, Um, we had
why Blank Matters podcasts shout out to us like, hey,
we're here, so we want to acknowledge you. Hi guys, thanks,
thanks for liking us or at least commenting on our stuff.
(35:13):
Hopefully that translates to it alike. Um. But there are
so many women doing amazing stuff out there. And uh,
I can say for from my own experience now, not always,
but now I am very very fortunate, lucky to have
a wonderful group of supporting women in my life. And
(35:34):
I it's so so valuable. It is. And and I'm
I've talked about how old I'm getting right now. I
felt really old as I'm struggling on Mike. UM. But
you know, as I'm approaching forties, it's coming, y'all, it's coming.
I'm not gonna tell you how soon. It's been amazing
to look back at how I've collected amazing women in
(35:55):
my life have supported me even getting here and having
a voice or even going through the social work world
to be able to acknowledge some of these ugliness and
try to push forward with some of the goodness. I'm
not one of those people who have ever been in relationships.
That's never been a thing that I've been in. I
probably have a total of three relationships and they didn't
last very long. So I'm very independent. But being independent
(36:17):
meant I've always had a family, and I chose to
have a family, and it did a lot of it
was mainly just strong females that I needed to not
only push me in a way that challenged me, but
also stopped me when it was obvious that I was
going overboard, you know. And it's really nice to have
that kind of balance, that kind of trust. And it's
(36:38):
my family, you know. I don't know if you've seen
the episodes, if you're just seeing the show Pose, and
it's the f X Pose and it's a fantastic series
with transgender women in the eighties, women of color, and
how they create their own family after being ostracized um
from the community, and how beautiful these women are they
come together and just are But that's what we do.
(37:00):
We create family from these from these levels. And I
think that's what we've done, what I've done with these
amazing group of girls. Like I do have my family,
but these these women that I have in my life,
they're my true family, the ones that I know will
come to get me, come sit with me, come hug me.
And it's a beautiful thing and it's so important. Like
I can't emphasize how important it is to have people
(37:23):
who understand you in a different manner. And I think
for women as well as people who are identifying as women,
having that female voice is fantastic. Absolutely, And I know
a lot of listeners are written in and expressed that
they don't have that and they really want that, and um,
(37:44):
it's that's hard. And just know that it's taken us
time to find that forties. I'm hitting forties, y'all. Yeah,
so I know it's really difficult and it can feel
like it's never gonna get any better, but just keep trying. Um.
(38:06):
And there are certainly things that you learn about yourself
too as you get older that maybe you had a
friend at one time and then it became a toxic
friendship as you got older. There are things like that happen. Um,
But I really hope that you all find this that
that we're talking about, and that you have examples of
(38:28):
women supporting other women and that you can go and
do that thing, and if you have, we would love
to hear them from you. You can email us at
STEPH Media, mom Stuff at i heeart media dot com.
You can find us on Twitter at mom Stuff podcast,
or on Instagram at stuff I've Never Told You. Thanks
(38:49):
as always to our super producer Andrew Howard, and thanks
to you for listening. Stuff I Never Told You's a
protection of I Heart Ideas. How stuff works For more
podcasts from my Heart Radio is at the already app
Apple Podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
(39:20):
H
Hey, this is Annie and Samantha, and welcome to stuff
I've never told to your protection of I Heart Radio's
how stuff works. Samantha and I have just gotten back
from a very long trip, so long that I've lost
(00:24):
my voice almost completely. Yes, between the yelling at our
conference to the screaming at the rides that you made
me go on, and like I forced you to do
something you didn't want to do, I feel like a
couple of those rides where I was tricked into I
would never do such a thing. Yes, we were in
No Orlando for podcast movement Spider trying to kill me
(00:46):
the Spider. Yeah, I remember that whatever Harry Potter ride
with Bidden Journey. You didn't tell me about that, and
I got to ride the new Harry Potter ride. I did.
She lift the glory And it's partly through the support
of Samantha, because you're the one that told me, whatever
is going to happen. You've got to write that right.
(01:07):
Look after the many discussions and the fact that your
face kind of fell when you thought you weren't going
to be able to do it, and I'm like, no,
it has to be done, and it was done. And
that's kind of what we're talking about today is women
supporting other women, which is something very important to both
of us because women are and have been frequently conditioned
(01:29):
to compete with other women for jobs for men, which
is yes, very heteronormative. In this UM for success, I
have witnessed example after example of this. I have been
a part of this UM. A great example is calling
a woman a horror slut when she sleeps with a man,
but not judging the man in the same way. But
(01:50):
more and more women are calling it for what it
is BS and they're supporting other women right And we're
so excited, So we wanted to talk a little bit
about the positives of women supporting women UM again. We
last week we went to Orlando for our little conference.
It was a little it was huge. We had a
lot of free T shirts now you are. I've been
(02:12):
wearing mine pretty happily and it's been amazing. And one
of the things that we got to do was be
on a panel with our podcasts from our FAM podcast world.
Is that what we would call it, don't network networks.
I want to call it something else. I wanna be
my own, my fam. This is my podcast fam UM
ethnically ambiguous Anna and Sharene, And it was so fun
(02:33):
to get to know these women that we kind of
know from AFAR because they're based out of l A
and we're in Atlanta, and so being able to like
sit and talk with them into like actually bond has
been phenomenal and just the idea of hearing where they're
coming from and how hard they've worked in the same
way with all of us where we come from. It's
really beautiful just to be able to get together and
(02:54):
to actually push each other and like support each other.
And I think that it was important that we come
back and had that as an actual discussion. Yeah, because
the panel we did um was on something we talked
about recently, podcaster imposter syndrome. And most of the people
who were there were women, and it was early in
(03:17):
the morning, so early. A couple of our a couple
of our coworkers showed up as well, but it was
it was so nice to just have that crowd and
see women supporting other women. One of the people who
showed up was Savers Laura Vocable, Yes, and she was
there with us one percent of the time to support us.
She was and she is not a morning person. She
(03:39):
would not mind me telling you that she is not
morning person. It meant a lot to me. She was fantastic.
So what we're talking about is women supporting other women,
and there is a lot of research into this. Studies
have shown that women who support other women find more
success when it comes to business, and that women benefit
more from collaboration as a posed to competition. Woman with
(04:02):
a squad or a close enter circle of female friends
are more likely to get executive positions that pay more money.
Data has not shown the same to be true for men,
and it's floked into it. It just hasn't shown that
same relationship for correlation. Having other women to turn to,
for example, when it comes to negotiating contracts, has been
incredibly valuable for me. Yeah, me too. Not only did
(04:25):
I have valuable advice from other women, but my contract
was handled by a badass woman who was a friend
of mine, who came to bat for me and really
fought to make sure of my contract was as fair
as it could be. So it's fantastic, oh absolutely, And
for women, having this group of close friends is one
way to combat the systems of bias that we face,
whether it's through offering advice and mentorship, having each other's
(04:47):
backs are offering words of encouragement. Yeah, I think it's
another testament to not filling alone having a support group
though at all. Past host Christen and Caroline did an
episode on the shine theory, which is in essence that
women support other women shine UM. Women who don't support
other women, who believe that women fundamentally can't get along
and or there's only room for one at the top
(05:08):
are frequently called queen bees. There are some mixed usages
of that that phrase, but for for our purposes here.
UM studies have found that women prefer male bosses at
large when it comes to work situations, Specifically, since women
are still underrepresented, there can sometimes be a sense that
women have to compete for the quote, one spot on
(05:28):
the board, or whatever it is. Some studies show that
men generally are more biased against women in professional settings,
but when it comes to a confident man and a
confident woman, they have no preference. However, women never, repeat
never chose the confident woman versus the confident man. M Yeah,
that's that shows something Yeah, not great. This also comes
(05:55):
with the favoritism threat that women publicly helping other women
will be seen as an act of favorite is m
or bias. Right, And then you know, while we call
this favoritism and biased, we have the boys club and
that doesn't seem to be a negative idea. It's such
a weird like connotation of being together and being fat
pulling each other up. Yet when women do it, it's
favoritism or sexist, not sexist, that's the word. That's the
(06:16):
other way. It could be that way, actually, but you
know that it is not such a negative connotation. Yeah,
And research across one thirty seven societies found that of
female competitive acts were targeted towards other women, and the
history of women hating other women, of undercutting and under
miming other women is a long one, starting in Victorian times.
(06:40):
While romantic relationships between women were celebrated, they were also
viewed as short lived and superficial. Appropriation for a quote
real marriage with a Man from the eighteen sixty eight
book The Friendships of Women, written by a male minister,
I was often struck both by the small number of
recorded examples of the sentiment among women and by the
commonness of the express bill that strong natural obstacles make
(07:01):
friendship a comparatively feeble and rare experience with them, or
criminal woman, the prostitute, and the normal woman, also written
by a man quote. Due to women's latent antipathy for
one another, trivial events give rise to fierce hatreds, and
due to women's irascibility, these occasions lead quickly to insolence
(07:23):
and assaults. Women of high social station do the same thing,
but they're more refined. Forms of insults do not lead
to law courts. Yeah, okay. At this time when women
couldn't own property or much of anything really, or they
couldn't have jobs. In most cases, competing for men that
could provide was a matter of life and death. Or
(07:44):
it could be sex workers were blamed for selling the
representation of other women, and women in charge of those
sex workers frequently cheated other women out of their wages.
Researchers have put forth two main theories for why this
rivalry exist. The first is evolutionary psychology a k. We
(08:04):
have to protect our wombs, so indirect aggression is the
way to go, or the feminist psychology theory basically that
it's internalized misogyny uh internalized mail, gays society teaching women
their value and identity, is wrapped up in their attractiveness
to men, which in turn makes them compete against each
other for men. I also read this huge, huge essay
(08:25):
about the economics of sexual reality and it was too
much future episode. But whoa, whoa, whoa. Another part of
this is self competition. When you see a woman you
think it's prettier, smarter, and or better than you, you're
really competing against yourself, but you're projecting it onto her.
Other researchers highlight that too. Other things that differentiate female
(08:49):
competition from male competition is that women with a higher
status or higher attractiveness have less of an incentive to
invest in other women and enforced social isolation on a
new competitor. That's the second reason ignoring a new attractive
coworker at the office or something like that. And most
of the studies around this competition between women does suggest
that women frequently judge around looks. One study found that
(09:13):
participants judged a woman in sexy attire much more harshly
than a woman in a T shirt and jeans, and
they were the same woman just the group's first blit up. Um.
They largely ignored the woman in the T shirt and
jeanes so you can be ignored or harshly judged. Yeah,
and also promiscuity. Of course, we can't forget that pretty
(09:33):
harsh judges, right, of course. Uh, and this guy be
wondering about things. Terms we use in our language like catfight,
which is according to dictionary dot com, and intense fight
our argument, especially between two women, and this was first
used in eighteen fifty four. Or similarly, if you look
at Caddie Worctionnary dot com defines that as a subtle
(09:53):
hostility and an effort to hurt annoy are upset, particularly
among women, and list bitchy as a semn him which
is also pretty usually pretty directed towards women. For what
it's worth, which is probably very little. Most actual cat
fights are between unutered male cats, which is right. Yes,
thank you for supporting me. If you're curious why women
(10:19):
seem to have this connection with cats, and you're probably
curious why the podcast is going in this way, but
this is just how my mind was sometimes, Uh, in
our language, like because there's cougars and crazy cat Lady
as well, there are a couple of things at play,
and one is cats are perceived as being cunning, selfish,
and the sounds they make less aggressive than dogs, which
is the animal they are most usually compared to. On
(10:40):
top of that, a paper out of Brown University by
Jennifer Lopez Rodriguez, looking into Spanish and English metaphors for
animals as women, came up with this bit in a
section called women as Pets. Within the animal world, pets
enjoy a privileged position. In fact, pets are not conceived
of as beast or burden, nor are they killed for
their meat or skin on the kind trade. Pets share
(11:00):
the same roof as their owners, and their main function
is to keep people company. This benevolent attitude towards pets
find its way into the English language, for the very
word pet is used as a term of endegrement. So
that's the cat aside for this episode. I like that.
Thank you for getting that information. I know nothing about cats. Okay,
let's move on from cats. Uh. I did want to mention,
(11:22):
of course, not like other girls. We've we touched on
that a lot. Are people who say, and I had
a friend who used to say this, even though I
was a friend, I don't make friends with other women.
And she would usually specify it was because they were dramatic,
or they cause a lot of drama, right, are that too?
Or they were too jealous of me? Or oh yeah,
or that the guys. She gets alone better with guys
because you know she has some interests as guys, she's
(11:43):
not goally enough, right right, right, Yeah, we all probably
have those those people in our lives. And um, I
think you could look at pretty much any magazine cover
for an example of our society perpetuating this idea that
women do compete. We're all about cat fights, Like I
feel every time I'm checking out of the store these days,
(12:05):
I see something about Kate Middleton and Meg and Marco fighting,
you know, things like that. Of course they can't like
each other, how dare are they? Yeah, it's impossible, impossible. Well,
we do have some examples of good relationships women supporting women,
so it is actually possible. But first we have a
quick break for a word from our sponsor, and we're back,
(12:40):
Thank you sponsor. And yeah, we did want to share
some some examples, some positive examples, starting with actress. All right,
I'm one of the things that I love, and I
remember the story with Jessica Chesting doing the mini Mini
talks about wage gap in the celebrity slash Just an
Actor World and the differentiation um. She actually had a
conversed sation with Octavia Spencer during one of the women
(13:03):
Breaking Barriers panel in which they had a really frank
discussion about the wage gap when he came to gender,
but Octavia had kind of correct her. There's a gender
gap when it comes to wages, but there's also the
um race gap. So even though Jessica make it paid less,
Octavia got paid even less than her. And so as
(13:24):
a way of showing solidarity, Jessica helped negotiate for their
next movie a new salary for both of them, which
was five times more than the original offer. Right, And
that's kind of like one of those moments of like, yes, finally,
let's let's have this moment of empowering each other by
supporting each other for people who can't maybe can advocate
for themselves. So when we had this conversation with other
(13:46):
white women advocating for women of color, that's fantastic. Or
for assist women to come out and advocate for those
who are identifying as females or Nauti's accepted. I think
it's such a big and powerful way to do things.
And I just love that story as we Yes, here's
one issue, but here's a deeper issue. But yeah, just
empowering each other and fighting for each other, which is awesome. Yes.
(14:08):
Another great example was the US Female the US Women
gymnasts supporting each other during the Larry Nasca trial and
just you know, tweeting support or being there and pretty
much saying, you know, I, um, if you win the gold,
I am so happy for you. Like it was. It
was really it was a sad thing, but it was
(14:29):
nice to see them on supporting each other, coming together
as a real team on fighting this huge issue, which
is fantastic. And then there's tennis. It's tennis, and you know,
I think I've spoken I have. I've spoken about Serena
Williams before when she had that argument with the ref
and then having to come back and apologize, but then
the most recent match with her at the Cincinnati Masters
(14:50):
where she had to retire because she got a back injury. Um,
the scene afterwhere Bianca and Jesscue and she are talking
is such a great encouraging, encouraging support. Seen Bianca sitting
there talking with her and supporting her and get just
encouraging about obviously, what do you say. It's the right
of Williams, who was just a badass all together. But
she comes into like, hey, I'm so sorry this is happening,
(15:11):
but thank you so much, you know, just the build up,
even though their competitors like just truly being sportsmanlike and
giving love to each other. Another thing that I found
that I really liked, And this is from someone who
is generally a little wary of social media. It takes
a lot for me to get on there. Um, when
(15:33):
om the Selim tweeted about being at a bar and
receiving unwanted attention from some dude, a woman she didn't
know came up to her and pretended to be her
friend to get Amanda to clear out any did, and
so many women responded to that tweet with similar stories
of women supporting women. I love it just what they're
being harassed on the streets and coming in and swooping
(15:54):
in and walking with them to wherever next. I love
those moments. I do too. And then they're politics, like
supporting women running running for office, things like Emily's list. Yeah,
maybe being too optimistic at the beginning of this, however,
having moments of watching Warren and Hairs taking pictures with
each other or standing up for each other, Gilly Brand
(16:14):
splitting her tissue with Hairs during a debate, like stuff
like that, and then even the Vogue photo alone, which
has them all together in a room in such a
strong manner and united, it makes me want to applaud.
I'm like yeah. And then there was a conversation that
happened in eighteen how it was really difficult for women
to find their space in politics as they're trying to
(16:35):
represents themselves because their voices seemingly are being drowned out.
There are these different stories of how underwhelmed the female
candidates were in getting support from their Democratic Party UM
and many other running candidates had to create their own network,
support through other women who are also campaigning, which is
both disheartening and encouraging. I mean, there's hope, and we
(16:56):
have to keep pushing forward, but the fact that they
had to create their own network to have some people
backing them, and and they were all like on different
opposing seats and different levels, and yet through the campaigns
or through UM whatever they were trying to do. I
think there was a panel which brought a lot of
women together to talk about how they wanted to be,
how do they want to run? And they started like
(17:18):
exchanging numbers and cars because they knew they needed each other,
and like they created lifelong friendships essentially by supporting each
other in this moment where no one else kind of
understood how but that this difficult would be, how difficult
this would be, especially right now. And then the people
who are supposed supposed to support them, they're not doing it.
But you know, as sad as that is, women uplifting women,
(17:40):
it makes a huge difference. We've seen it. We've seen
some good changes. Oh absolutely, And going back to what
you said about boys clubs and some we're at the
end of the episode, we're gonna get into this more
about some advice I've seen is creating these spaces for
women to make those connections and to help support each other,
even like in companies and universities all over, and it's
women taking the initiative and saying we need this, let's
(18:05):
make it happen, and we can help other women. I
love that. Another example we love is of a nice
lunkat um she escaped female genital mutilation and went on
to say, fifteen thousand girls in Kenya from the same
procedure and helped change how it is viewed, even helping
band mentioning the procedure in messi oral tradition. On top
(18:27):
of that, she was integral and creating a ceremony that
celebrates the transition into womanhood um with with singing and
dancing and much more of a positive thing. And whatever
you think about Taylor Swift uh and whether or not
some of these things she's done are like legit or marketing,
she has made a show of supporting other women were
(18:49):
first getting in fights with a life of them, but
then publicly apologizing, like with Nicki Minaj or Katie Perry.
I gassed aloud when I was watching music video and
Katie Perry s, did you really? Yeah, She's She's just hamburger,
I know, And I was like, they're hut. You know.
There was a lot and I think you're not on
on social media, but there was a lot of like
(19:09):
hents between them sending each other all the wrench and
I think cookies were involved, which I would take cookies
any day, which is an apology. And then you know,
Adele yes like being so such a big fan of Beyonce,
I mean, how can you not be though? Respect? Respect?
But it is nice to see uh, And I like
even in and Taylor supposed new songs. She says something about,
(19:32):
like all you people on theirnet comparing, comparing all of us,
we we figured it out and we all got crowns.
Back up, back up, you have a crown, you have
a ground? Do you have a crown? I wanted that
ground from the party. And there was a body at
a party were recently at just wearing a crown the
entire time. Wonder you were jealous? But he he brought
(19:54):
his own crown to be fair. He rocked it really well.
He did. So now we know, always have a crown
on your person in case. Yes, new new motto, UM
and the meto era brought a lot of support for
women with that. I believe her as a part of
that as well, for many of the women who still
had to fight to be believed. But but watching all
these different women and even today I see it Um
(20:15):
when different things are rising up in different issues or
when different controversies have happened, I'm still using. I believe her,
and I see that many women are the ones that's
behind it. And it's a beautiful thing, even though sometimes
it's said that it has to be birth from such
a nasty, nasty or deal. Another example is volunteering as
abortion escorts. And while I was researching this episode, I
(20:40):
went down such a girl supporting girls rabbit hole and
it was so beautiful and I teared up. Um. Recently,
we were at the airport and a random woman came
up and asked us if we were dancers or models
because we were beautiful and had nice posture. And it
was the best. It really was. It was me you
and Lauren and having her come out out of nowhere
(21:01):
because I first thought she was gonna just ask us
a random question about right, and then she's like, are
you all things? You have such a good posture, and
I was like this is I was getting ready to leave,
but thank you so very much. I love it. And
it was so nice because it was so unexpected anyway,
because I didn't look like I was ready to dance
on like that. I'm like ready to go to sleep. Yeah,
(21:21):
Never underestimate the power of a genuine compliment that is
not like looking to get something else out of it.
And that's the other thing. I think it's nice if
you see something that is nice. It's gonna be awesome.
Now I'm not gonna say at the time, but I
know I've had many of moments when someone complimented my hair,
complimented my outfit or whatever, and it's super also all
(21:45):
thank you. Of course, I always ended awkwardly because I'm
an awkward to person, but I genuinely remember it, and
from then on I'm like, oh, that made me feel
really nice. Yeah, And it's such a easy thing to do,
easy way to really brighten someone. Actually, this week when
we went to do the podcast, we did the panel
and I came off and one of our listeners came
up and said hello and and and was really encouraging,
(22:07):
and I was like, then made me feel so good.
Thank you because it was our first panel, and uh,
I think it went really well. But I was nervous
at first. I was shake We all were. But you
were just noticeable because you had paper and had the paper.
I was the nerd that came with the printed out
doctor Well, you were moderating, so you had to remember
the questions. The rest of us got off. Scott Easy
(22:27):
just been like, we're just gonna answer you a question,
blah blah, blah, but yeah, that really meant a lot
to come up afterwards. We do also see this in
our media other than like magazine coming rights, but like
mean girls was one of the first things that came
to mind for me. Um. But then there's also kind
of the more negative side, things like Real Housewives. Right.
(22:51):
I was just thinking about like the travelinghood of sister
or something. Thank you. I knew there was something to
do with that, But the fact that they're actually friends
in real life, I love that. I mean, like, I've
never seen this movie. I had to get the premise,
and I think it's beautiful, but I love that whole idea. Um.
And for all of its faults, Sex in the City,
that's one of the things I loved about it. And
I wanted my core group of friends to live together
(23:13):
for the rest of our lives and talk about our
bad sex lives or good sex lives hopefully yes, yes,
any kind of alcohol to be honest. Um. But then then, yeah,
you've got the other ones such as Heathers. I want
to go back the old school days where they all
trying to kill each other. What have you ever seen Heathers? No,
it's a good eighties classic Christians. Later, one on a
(23:34):
writer way back when, and this is it's this click
of girls named Heather and then one girl Veronica. I
think it's her. It's one on his character and they're
all very rich and very snobby people, and then they
all end up like slowly trying to kill each other.
But it turns out to be I won't throw I won't,
I won't ruin the plot for you, quess you should watch.
It's actually really fun. They all trying to kill each
(23:56):
other so they can only be one Heather. Well, there's
a queen bee as there's a queen of it, and
so everybody's kind of like stacking to see who's the top.
I remember, it's been a minute. But it's a good
movie by eighties standards. I need to put that as
a preface because then you're like, oh, hell, there's a
lot of really big problems in this movie. By eight standards,
it was really good. Watch it and I'll see I
(24:18):
see a lot of people still dressing up at slow characters.
Oh really yeah. Uh. When I was thinking about this episode,
I was trying to think of examples in my life
of this happening to me, of of women being like
cruel to me or or me being cruel to women.
And I feel like for me, people were mean as
to me when I was in middle school and then
(24:40):
early high school, and then in college I was I was.
I don't think I was ever purposefully. I just had
some like not like other girls, and I would kind
of make fun of women I saw competing for male
attention in a way that wasn't very kind. Um. That
was like my freshman year of college. But I got
(25:02):
out of it pretty quickly because that and that's the
thing that we're all taught this way of life of
like judging other women, and I did it, and that
sometimes I still have to check myself and be like that,
why are you thinking that this is unnecessary? You're not
a judge or jury of any of these. Let people live.
But it's so hard sometimes when it's ingraining you that
(25:23):
you have to live by the standard, and the only
way to compare and to see if you're living by
that standard is to compare to the other people again,
because it's your own projection of what you should be,
and it's so absurd and it's very absolutely the patriarch
to like taking us down, telling us we're trying to
all fight for second place because we're never gonna be
number one. That's the white man, right right, and so
(25:44):
we're all trying to get the sick oft spot. So
it's just seemingly it's such an ugly, ugly idea, but
it's really hard to get past it. But progress is
to be able to check yourself. Yea, that is ugly. Yeah,
and that that's that's some really good advice to kind
of a hey, why am I thinking this? What's really
going on? And we have even more advice for you,
(26:05):
but first we have one last quick break for work
and more sponsor and we're back, Thank you sponsor. There
is a lot of write up right ups. There are
(26:27):
a lot of right ups excuse me out there about
women and how to support other women, especially in professional settings.
So if you if this is something that's been on
your mind or that you would like to work on
the internet is there for you. But we do have
some that we want to include. One is make making
connections with other women a priority. And this is something
(26:48):
that I have started doing, especially if I see like
a woman in a in a conference setting or something like, oh,
this woman is doing badass stuff. There aren't too many
other women in here when you go talk to her, Right,
I got to finally meet the ladies of stuff you
miss in history class, Tracy and Holly, and they've become
my favorite people's They're they're fantastic, they're hilarious, and they're
(27:11):
just genuinely kind people. And it's way to meet those
kinds of people. So, yeah, you gotta keep your eye
out and be like, I know you're gonna be a
valuable asset and I want to be a part of
your life. Yeah, And part of making things a priority,
and this was a huge lesson for me, is making
time for it and following up on it. Because it's
easy to get somebody's business card and then just move on.
(27:31):
But if you if you really want to follow up
with somebody, then do that. Then do that. Be a
mentor or a sponsor for other women. Um. I was
a mentor in college and it was so so so rewarding, right,
it really really was. So I I recommend that and
being available for anybody who is new in your office
or your profession, whatever might be, and like say, hey,
(27:53):
if you ever want to sit down with some coffee
and talk about things, I'm available. You're probably my mentor
because I don't know what the hell I'm doing. Would
you like to sit down with coffee and think about things? Okay?
I would rather have about well, I know, but perhaps
in most professional settings, start with coffee, okay. Um, recommend
(28:17):
other women for jobs and amplify the voices of other
women exactly. Search out women you admire, Consume things created
by women, by things made by women. Yeah. We were
recently at Dames and Dregs and there was an artist
alley that was all women and my friend top she
bought a lot of art. Yeah. And that's one of
(28:37):
the things I liked about that festival. It's bringing out
as many different women in different professions. We had different
female DJs, which is fantastic. We had those who identified
as women doing performances, which was even one more wonderful. Um.
We had a lot of the breweries had their female
employees create their own beers to to highlight their brewery
(28:58):
as well as their skills. And I think it's fantastic
to have something that you can actually just support women,
um and support their craft. Um. Then there's also being
a role model for girls and women, and some examples
I saw of this particularly in the business sense. Sit
in front of sent in front at meetings, speak up,
encourage other women to speak up, Remind people where an
(29:20):
idea came from. And this was Samantha's idea. Yeah, yeah,
that's a big one. Awesome organizations that foster mentorship for
women and girls and those who identifies as such, and
just a few of those would be girls school. She
should run girls who are at camp smart girls. And
also to add the Trevor Project Listen and trans Women
of Color Collective. I think it's better just to get
a bigger, bigger lists and just to throw out and
(29:43):
get highlight some of those good things that's going on, uh,
and kind of going off of that, celebrating and highlighting
the successes and accomplishments of other women. Women frequently don't
get the credit they deserve. And if they voice that
they think they might be accused bragging, they probably actually
will be accuster bagging. There's there's science behind that, that's
not just me saying that. Um, And I feel like
(30:04):
I'm bragging all the time when I talk about stuff
I've done. And there is even a quote in a
newspaper somewhere of me saying how uncomfortable I was doing
the interview because I felt like I was bragging. Really, yes,
so it's pretty pervasive. So having someone kind of do
it for you or help you celebrate or recognize those
successes is great. If you find yourself labeling a woman
(30:26):
a shrill, bossy, bitchy, again, check yourself, ask why, find
specific example of them doing that if there is one,
and ask yourself if you would feel the same way
if it was a man that had done it right.
Science shows that women not supporting other women can lead
to negative health outcomes and absentee is um at work,
So this is a pretty big deal. In the words
(30:47):
of Metal and Albright, there is a special place in
hell for women who don't help other women. Yeah, and
activating so many articles about women who don't like women,
which is what we were talking about earlier, or why
women compete with women. It's pretty clear the level of
self hatred there is for these types of women. It
seems like it's almost like it's brainwashing for women. The
game is competing again, like for second place behind men,
(31:08):
so it's not that we will ever, so it's kind
of like, oh, we don't even try to compete with men.
We just got to compete with women, and that's the
only way we can get ahead, which is an absurd
idea that was from way back when. Yeah, and a
lot of articles I read, um, and I know this
is going to be controversial, bought up Hilly Clinton and
how when she was first lady her approval rating was
(31:32):
so high, and then when she tried running for president
so um and things like that. And I have had
female friends tell me that they dread working with female
bosses because they've had terrible experiences with female bosses who
treated women awfully. Right, Um, So that that makes my
(31:53):
heart hurt. We should be helping each other, right, But
I think it's just the same, Like I've had really
bad malby. That's the sad part is that level of
women they still are in the mind of I got
here because of I went out over this other woman,
and this is not always always the case, but I
think that's the old school idea and it's still pretty prevalent, unfortunately,
(32:17):
which has to be completely diminished. Yeah, And I I've
also when I first got this job, I was the
only woman in the department, and there was a weird
sense of like pride about that, like Oh yeah, I'm
the only one, and now I'm older and wiser, and
I'm so happy I'm the department. But there is also
(32:41):
kind of that thing feeling like you're quote special. Um. So,
and I also just want to say here, I am very,
very very competitive. This isn't against like competition at all,
but it's for like healthy competition and also colever ration
and lifting at people where they deserve to. Competition is
(33:04):
not wrong. No, and again the healthy competition, as you
talked about being sportsmanlike, is very very important. It is
this detriment of like all or nothing type of mentality
of I've got to be this completely and I must
destroy in order. And I don't think that's everyone. No, no,
absolutely don't. Um, but I think that's the idea that
(33:25):
whether it's the patriarch saying you should be that way
or whether it's women being taught this is the only
way you know that is as a dangerous part. But yeah,
there's good competition, and that's okay. We have plenty of
competition when it comes to feminist podcast I love it, yes, yes,
and uh we do have some solid podcast to shout out.
(33:48):
So yeah, that's while we're here. Um, with that, we
want to shout out to the different people in podcasts
we adore because I think it's important to acknowledge others
that have been here with us, or others who are
continuing on good things and just being able to share. Hopefully.
We did listeners of some other types of um women
out there, other types of some other women out there
doing their thing again ethnically ambiguous, which is fantastic, our
(34:11):
own Anna Sharne. She they do some amazing shows and
have some really great guests. Bectel Cast, which any you
are a guest host on that talking about Marvel right
the Avenger. See I need this, I didn't. I listened
to you um of course Savor oh you know, oh
you know Savor um unladylike, which is the former host
Caroline and Kristen, and then of course our old host
(34:32):
Emily who was with Bossed Up now and then Bridget
wonderful Bridget who's working with Afro punk and she has
some huge projects. I follow her on the twitters. She
got some big stuff coming and love it. Um unpopular
with our own ease female first ease. Stuff you missed
in history class which I talked about Tracy and Holly
are amazing. That's what she said. Is another podcast we
(34:53):
listened to as well as I want to give a
shout out. Um. When we released our podcaster Imposter Syndrome
Women in the Podcasting World, gender gap, Um, we had
why Blank Matters podcasts shout out to us like, hey,
we're here, so we want to acknowledge you. Hi guys, thanks,
thanks for liking us or at least commenting on our stuff.
(35:13):
Hopefully that translates to it alike. Um. But there are
so many women doing amazing stuff out there. And uh,
I can say for from my own experience now, not always,
but now I am very very fortunate, lucky to have
a wonderful group of supporting women in my life. And
(35:34):
I it's so so valuable. It is. And and I'm
I've talked about how old I'm getting right now. I
felt really old as I'm struggling on Mike. UM. But
you know, as I'm approaching forties, it's coming, y'all, it's coming.
I'm not gonna tell you how soon. It's been amazing
to look back at how I've collected amazing women in
(35:55):
my life have supported me even getting here and having
a voice or even going through the social work world
to be able to acknowledge some of these ugliness and
try to push forward with some of the goodness. I'm
not one of those people who have ever been in relationships.
That's never been a thing that I've been in. I
probably have a total of three relationships and they didn't
last very long. So I'm very independent. But being independent
(36:17):
meant I've always had a family, and I chose to
have a family, and it did a lot of it
was mainly just strong females that I needed to not
only push me in a way that challenged me, but
also stopped me when it was obvious that I was
going overboard, you know. And it's really nice to have
that kind of balance, that kind of trust. And it's
(36:38):
my family, you know. I don't know if you've seen
the episodes, if you're just seeing the show Pose, and
it's the f X Pose and it's a fantastic series
with transgender women in the eighties, women of color, and
how they create their own family after being ostracized um
from the community, and how beautiful these women are they
come together and just are But that's what we do.
(37:00):
We create family from these from these levels. And I
think that's what we've done, what I've done with these
amazing group of girls. Like I do have my family,
but these these women that I have in my life,
they're my true family, the ones that I know will
come to get me, come sit with me, come hug me.
And it's a beautiful thing and it's so important. Like
I can't emphasize how important it is to have people
(37:23):
who understand you in a different manner. And I think
for women as well as people who are identifying as women,
having that female voice is fantastic. Absolutely, And I know
a lot of listeners are written in and expressed that
they don't have that and they really want that, and um,
(37:44):
it's that's hard. And just know that it's taken us
time to find that forties. I'm hitting forties, y'all. Yeah,
so I know it's really difficult and it can feel
like it's never gonna get any better, but just keep trying. Um.
(38:06):
And there are certainly things that you learn about yourself
too as you get older that maybe you had a
friend at one time and then it became a toxic
friendship as you got older. There are things like that happen. Um,
But I really hope that you all find this that
that we're talking about, and that you have examples of
(38:28):
women supporting other women and that you can go and
do that thing, and if you have, we would love
to hear them from you. You can email us at
STEPH Media, mom Stuff at i heeart media dot com.
You can find us on Twitter at mom Stuff podcast,
or on Instagram at stuff I've Never Told You. Thanks
(38:49):
as always to our super producer Andrew Howard, and thanks
to you for listening. Stuff I Never Told You's a
protection of I Heart Ideas. How stuff works For more
podcasts from my Heart Radio is at the already app
Apple Podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
(39:20):
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