Women's Bodies & Middle Eastern Culture

Anna and Shereen of the podcast Ethnically Ambiguous dish on their experiences being raised by immigrant parents in the United States.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hi, this is Annie and you're listening to Steph Mom
never told you, and today I'm so excited to be
joined by Anna and shreen the host of the podcast
Ethnically Ambiguous, which if you haven't checked out you should.

(00:28):
Thank you so much to both of you for joining us. Hi,
I don't know if you should wait. Yeah, it's just
Sharne as Susannah and we are very happy to be here.
We love your podcast and this is so cool. Yeah. Oh,
I'm so happy to have you and I love your
podcast as well. I love your theme music. Can you

(00:51):
tell us? Oh? No, what is it? So? That was
just like a fun project we did together, like what
like almost a year and a half ago, now, right
we first started thing. Yeah, yeah, that was fun. That
was fun. I love it. Yeah. Could you tell us
a little bit about yourselves and your show? Yeah? So, um,

(01:11):
me and Anna met in college where we became closer
and we both found ourselves in l a like pursuing
production and entertainment stuff and film. Uh, and so we
became closer and we wanted to have a space in
the industry for people like us that our Middle Eastern
because we never saw ourselves in the media at all,
and we the more we talked to each other, the

(01:33):
more we realize our voices are really important. And so
we made a YouTube show that was kind of short
lived by the same name, but we ended up making
the podcast ethnically ambiguous to highlight UM Middle Eastern news
that doesn't really get talked about in Western media and
also UM bring attention to people of color and women
and um just people in the community that are doing

(01:55):
really cool things. And I'm Serrian American and my family
was immigrated from Syria. And then Anna, yeah, and I'm
Irani and American. My parents are both from Iran, and yeah,
we just we just needed a space to also like
talk about things that like most people wouldn't relate to
but we just wanted we're basically people around us wouldn't

(02:15):
relate to us. But then like in the greater sphere
of the world, there were all these different people that
we knew would understand what we were talking about. We
just needed to reach them somehow. Yeah, so like being
children of immigrants, being like the hairy like person in school,
or like having big eyebrows or whatever, and we talked
about all these things that made us feel really alienated
and we are growing up, but now it's bringing people

(02:38):
like us together with our podcast so it's really cool. Yeah.
I love that. Um, that's one of my favorite things
about podcasting is how hearing from people who have said
I grew up in a small town and I never
got to see myself or even hear myself reflected around me.
But having podcasts um made me feel less alone and

(03:01):
it showed me that there was a big world out
there and there were other people like me. Yeah, it's
really humbling when that happens, because we get letters or
like emails and messages from people, and UM, I genuinely
like forget that we have listeners. Sometimes I feel like
I'm just having a conversation with Anna and then like
I leave the room and it's fine. But then when

(03:22):
we get messages like that, it's like, oh, this is
why we're doing it, Like it's really important. Yeah. It
just means a lot to me that when when we
talk about personal things that maybe are hard for us
and then to get a good response. I think it's
really um an amazing platform. Yea, And I feel I
feel like if I had only had something like this
growing up, I would have been less of a weirdo,

(03:43):
like a recluse, because I just felt like I didn't
fit in anyway with anyone. And it's nice to hear
just someone be like, yeah, I went through that exact
same thing and nobody got it. Yeah, And it's really
cool being that person that someone's like, oh, I'm not alone. Like,
if we can be that person or those bol to
even like a handful of listeners, that would make everything

(04:03):
worth it. But the fact that we have more than
that and people appreciate it, and even if they aren't
minority or like marginalized people. Um, we got a lot
of people saying like, hey, I'm a white person from
the Midwest and i had no idea about your culture
and now I'm so curious and fascinated by it. Thank
you for like telling me. So it's a mixed bag
of people that are um also aliens like us and

(04:26):
um people that are learning for the first time what
it means to be a child of an immigrant, to
be Syrian or Iranian or um just growing up uh
not white, you know. Yeah. And then just to give
people the chance to have empathy towards people of colors,
big because I feel like we need that more than
ever right now, Yeah, I agree, Um. And and going

(04:49):
off of that, when you both came to me with
this pitch, Um, it was about growing up with immigrant
parents and and the rules that you had, um, and
how you were comparing your bodies to the white friends
that you were growing up with. So could you talk
a little bit about I'm wondering if you if it

(05:10):
would be useful to talk about your parents and how
they came to the United States for this conversation or
not at all, Like I really would love for you
to sort of guide what you think where this conversation
should go. Sure, I mean you wanted to talk a
little about why your parents came. Sure. So my parents

(05:33):
married in Syria and the government has always been really
corrupt over there, and my dad, he was a civil
engineer and my mom was an English translator and a
teacher for some time. But seeing how corrupt the government was,
my dad made a choice not to raise a family
there and so they immigrated to so Cal And Um,
he had to start from scratch. He was the graveyard

(05:54):
shift at a gas station. So really, the majority of
immigrants you see here in the States, it's um. They
had jobs and lives somewhere else and they really have
to start over. And that's why I really think immigrants
are just the most strong group of people we have.
But regardless, my parents were here, and um, I was

(06:15):
raised Muslim because both of my parents families are Muslim
and they're Muslim, and still they came from a pretty
conservative I mean, even though Syria is a secular country, Um,
it's still conservative when it comes to women as far
as like like if if a woman has her hair
uncovered or is wearing tight clothes, it's assumes she's a
Westerner in Syria, and so my dad's family in particular

(06:38):
were very strict. All the women in his family are covered. Um,
even though my mom's family is also Muslim, they're more liberal,
and um, we're in a straight as far as religion goes.
But when we moved here, my dad made sure to
raise this all Muslim and it's something that he really
wants to hold onto because he attributed being Muslim to
being like part of the culture. And I disagree with

(07:00):
that only because I think being graised would religion made
me kind of despise it, and not not that I
despise that religion in particular, just like all religion. Um,
and so I rebelled a lot. I didn't listen to
the rules. I wasn't allowed to wear like tank tops
or shorts. And now when I reached a certain age
and like learn how to drive, I would change clothes
in my car before going to school. And so, um,

(07:20):
little tiny rebellions here and there. But um, I think
my both of my parents, they interpreted being a good
Muslim or a modest woman with being a good representation
of what it is to be an Arab American. And
I think that's what they wanted me and my sisters
to be, to be like the best example of an
Arab American girl that is Muslim. And um, unfortunately I

(07:43):
don't feel like I am that, but um, but I
feel like I'm a good person, and I think that's enough,
you know. Yeah, And you know, my parents came from Iran.
They came separately from um, different parts of Iran to
go to college in America, and their plan was originally
to go back to Iran after they graduated and got
through degrees. But um, the Iranian Revolution happened in nineteen nine,

(08:07):
and that just after that they're kind of like, well,
might as well just stay in America and try and
work and start a family. And that's kind of around
the time my parents met and got married and had
me and and and my mom is a very devout
Muslim woman, UM, and my father is secular, so I
wasn't really like I I would always when I would
hang out with my mom, that's when I would get

(08:28):
all my like religious vibes for her, and like I
would hear a lot about it. But with my dad,
it was never really a thing like he didn't really
care for and was just kind of like, hey, I
can't really handle these religious people pushing their stuff on me,
which was not what my mom was. Like, my mom
really always kept herself, but they both came from a
more conservative country in this sense, Like my mom always

(08:50):
like she always dressed very conservatively into this day she
still does and that UM and my father always kind
of believed in, you know, doing that and not being
to show e just being like classy and clean and
just don't show too much skin because you don't want
to pull attention to you, Like just do your work
and don't bother anyone and no one will bother you,

(09:11):
and just very straight and narrow path in life, like
that's what they wanted for me. And I think I
I became a little bit more vibrant than that I
would like. Shreen said, I I rebelled a lot, and I,
you know, I would wear clothes to just test them
and see how far I could get away with it.
Like I wasn't allowed to paint my nails, and I
would paint my nails until my dad would basically freak

(09:34):
out and tell me to go take it off, and
I would just I was just trying and push the
limits to see, you know, how far I could take
it in how strict they really were. And I learned
they were very strict. Yeah, I think I think being
a children of parents that are stricter in the US,
when you're raised by Americans or like not because we're

(09:54):
also American, though when you're raised by when you're raised
alongside more American culture with your immigrant culture, you feel
like such a just a strange being because you can't
relate to kids that can stay out it later, can
wear whatever they want to like it's it makes you

(10:15):
feel so I don't know, just like apart from everything else,
I always felt so apart from every like like the
general public and um, I don't think my parents intended that,
but I think they really wanted us to be proud
of our culture and be a good represent the model
minority in a way. But I think that backfires sometimes

(10:35):
because you are putting your children in a very Western
culture that is more liberated and as far as like
self expression goes, and I think both and and I
really value self expression, and um, I think my parents
had to adjust because it's just part of being It's
a funny thing because they bring they come to America
because they're like, you're going to have the American dream

(10:56):
in that sense, you're gonna be able to do what
you need to do. But then they get upset if
you'd be come to americanized and you're like, well, what
do you want? Yeah? And like I really appreciate being
raised Muslim because it really did teach me like amazing
values and it's a beautiful religion. I think religion has
its merits, but just me personally, I can't. I'm not
a religious person and I don't really believe in God,

(11:18):
and um, it's no one's fault like myself, and I
feel like my dad would really take it personally and
blame himself for not doing a better job raising us
to be good Muslims. But it's just not who I am.
And I think accepting that and UM still like being
the same person around my parents and they know that
I'm a good person. I think it's just yeah, I think,

(11:41):
um being when realized. I remember when I was twelve
years old, I told my mom I didn't believe in
God and she started crying, and so I really I
was like, oh, Okay, this is not a topic I
should breach anymore. Copy that. UM, So I just kept
it to myself. And I think, Um, until you're able
to leave the house, you don't really know a lot
about yourself still. And then I think that's a big

(12:04):
part of being raised with them in your parents is
you have to get out of their Unfortunately, in my experience,
you have to make your own life. And then you're like, oh,
this is who I am kind of thing. Yeah. Yeah.
When I was researching this, UM trying to I was
just reading a lot of accounts from people who were

(12:26):
raised by immigrant parents, and something I found a lot
was immigrant parent guilt. I don't know if that's something
that it sounds like it's something that you experienced, but
definitely yeah. But that's the thing, Like my parents are remarkable,
and so are and A's parents. I think they're the
most hard working, generous people and I love them more

(12:47):
than anything. And if the fact that they could feel
guilty about not doing a better job raising me in
a way that would maybe be like more ideal for
their families, that makes me really sad because I I
don't want them to be disappointed in me or get
like from their families, because that's what happens. It's like
when I wear when I posted a picture of myself

(13:07):
wearing shorts or a tank top, my dad might get
a call from his like million brothers and like brate
him about how he's raising us. And so it makes
me feel so self conscious online. It makes me feel
self conscious, Like it's as a person because being raised
to always cover your body, whether it is with baggy clothes,
whether it's not showing your skin. You do, but do

(13:28):
you develop a complex about your body and you it's
almost like this. It's not self hate, but it's pretty close.
It's just self consciousness. Its self hate. It's anxiety. You
learn to like reject your body, you don't relate to
you don't learn anything about your body. You're not told
to Like, no, seriously, you have a vagina and there's
you know, there's stuff go like tampons or like even

(13:50):
just like how to wear clothes that fit your figure.
You don't learn any of Yeah, Like I didn't even know.
My second year of college was the first time in
wore a tampon because my white roommate was like, there's
these are amazing and I wasn't allowed to wear them
growing up, And I was like, you know what, I'm
gonna try and I taught. I was like, I explained
it to my sisters. I told my mom about it.

(14:10):
I was like, why are we so outdated? Just like
used tampons. So it was just like, um, it's not
even it's not their fault. I just think they wanted
to preserve something that they associated with our culture. Um.
But the the downside of that is that I hated
my vadryor growing up. I didn't want to touch it.
I didn't want to look at it. I thought it

(14:31):
was gross. I did not lock my body. I hated
my breasts. I like would take I would wear like
two sports bras in high school because I hated people
looking at me with my because I had like bigger
boobs and I wanted to like glue them to my
body and like make them flat. Um. And so yeah,
I think a lot of immigrant daughters don't really find

(14:53):
their sexuality or like their true selves. And maybe I'm
not gonna speak for everyone every daughter that's a raised
but figrants, but I think it's a we're like late
bloomers almost because and if you do figure anything out,
you're doing it completely in secret, on your own time,
because your mom is not sitting you down. There's no talk,

(15:15):
there's never a tal and if there is, it's just
a strange one. Like, um, we grew up in a
pretty we moved around while growing up because of my
dad's job, and um, we were in a pretty bad
neighborhood at one point. And in school, I was I
was in first grade or second grade. In school, someone
had said the word sex or something. And my sister
is a year and a half older than me, and

(15:36):
I remember we came back from school and we asked
my mom about it, and I was like six or seven,
and um, I was remember my mom sat us down
and she said, every man has a sword and every
woman has a pedestal. And this is like a very
rough translation from Arabic, but she said that like, don't
let anyone put their sword in you. And first of
all the most the most air of analogy to use

(15:56):
a sword, um, but second of all just terrifying. And
so you grow up with this fear and um, you're
not taught to embrace yourself. And I think that's something
that needs to be addressed. It really does. Yeah. I
mean I only think I ever heard from my mom
was just don't get pregnant. Yeah, it's like, well, how
do I not get pregnant? Like nothing? Yeah, yeah, please explain,

(16:21):
Yeah yeah yeah, So but it's not there. I really
don't fault my parents or anything, like. They did their
best and they are the best, and I love them
for it. I just think it requires you to really
be more independent and more self seeking when it comes
to your own self and um, like I just think

(16:41):
for me personally, I developed a lot of like body
dysmorphia and um part like like difficulties with like food
and stuff and so um it's still something I have
to like battle and stuff like that. But uh, I
don't blame them for that. I think it was just
the way I reacted to it, and um, but yeah,
even now, like I I feel like I think about

(17:03):
the clothes I wear really consciously. I think about the
pictures I post really consciously because I'm just like, what
if my uncle sees this? What if? I Like, It's
just I hate that I have to think that way,
and I'm trying to not anymore. And like, if there
are failing members that would like wrap me out for
something that I'm doing completely normally, then I'll just block
them or something. Yeah, which I went the other way.

(17:24):
I'm like out of control, and if anyone comments on me,
I say, hey, following me on Instagram is a privilege,
not a right, and then I start whole like drama
I I have in my past in Iran when I
visit my family have started so much drama over my
Instagram because I posted a photo of one uncle with
a woman that he shouldn't have been posted in a photo.
And I'm like, well, I'm not deleting it, and you
guys can figure it out yourselves. It's fun. It is.

(17:49):
It's also interesting because so much of our family is
not physically here in America, and so social media is
a big part of interacting, like whether it's on WhatsApp
or like Instagram or face book, like it's a big
part of keeping in touch. And um, like I'm already
the worst influence of my entire family because I was
the first one to ever get a tattoo, and both

(18:10):
of my parents, even though my sisters were both adults
when they got a tattoo, they kind of blamed me
for that because I was the first one and made
it seem okay, even though my sister, one of my sisters,
was older than me. But um, I just I've accepted
that role. I'm like the black sheet middle child that
like starched and it's rebellious and its troublemaker in their minds,

(18:31):
even though I've like never actually done anything that bad
in my opinion, But um but they do see me
as like the like not bad influence, but kind of yeah,
because getting a tattoo in Muslim culture or Arab culture,
and even I think perject culture is the same way.
It's like kind of like, I don't know, like a
scummy thing to do. Yeah, So yeah, that's another way.

(18:56):
I was like testing my limits, like it was something
I wanted and I just did it, And um, I
don't regret it. But my parents, I think just accepted
me eventually, and now they're okay, you know, they realize
that I'm my own person. H and and I think
they love each and every one of us, and I think,

(19:18):
knowing that they raised us to be good people, should
negate anything else. We have some more of our conversation,
but first we're gonna pause for a quick break for
word from our sponsor, and we're back. Thank you sponsor,

(19:39):
and back to the conversation. Do you is that a curiosity? Um?
What do they think about this whole podcasting thing? My well,
my mom does not care at all. She's in She
just says like, do whatever you do. I don't care,
Like she'll never listen to it because she has no
interest like that. My dad listens to it occasionally, and

(20:00):
he's into it. You know. It's the first time he's
ever really truly expressed that he's like proud of something
that I'm doing, and I do. I do think if
it was just any other podcast, he'd be like, oh,
you're just messing around. But I think because I do
it on the Middle East and our culture, he's more
interested and enjoys that I'm bringing like over that we
are bringing this kind of light to our world and

(20:20):
our culture and the countries that, for the most part
of mainstream media don't really get any attention. I mean
other than Saudi Arabia. Now thanks to Mohammed been Salmon,
he's really you know, his behavior has really brought Saudi
Arabia's really really great for the brand. Yeah, that's you
have to kill a journalist to get any attention these days. No,
but um yeah, my mom does not listen to anything

(20:42):
unless she's on it. Um. We we've had both our
parents on a couple of times, like we called him
on the phone, and people love those episodes a lot.
I love those episodes maybe the most. Um, my dad
listens pretty often, and I found myself being nervous about
what I say some times and censoring myself on my podcast.
And I'm far more open when I'm a guest on

(21:03):
other people's podcasts because of that reason. But I'm trying
to not do that because I want my listeners, our
listeners to know the intimate side is me of as well,
and not be walking on eggshell just because my dad
might listen. But my dad is really supportive. He really
just like with Anna's dad loves that we're proud about
our culture and talking about it openly and educating people

(21:25):
about us. And I think he's so he's proud that
we're proud. Um. He is kind of funny though, because
the last time he was on the podcast, he kind
of like gave us notes like he was like he does.
He holds like a press like he he won't really
compliment me until he makes sure, like I should do
something better, which is like just like a dad thing
to do. I think he's really but he's so supportive

(21:48):
and he's really proud of me. And yeah, I think
I was weirded out that he was listening all the
time at first, but it's really just a cute thing
that he could do on his commute. And I love that.
I love that I'm like, um, a part of his day,
you know. And uh, I just have to maybe sit
down with him and tell him, like, sometimes I'll get
intimate and maybe you should listen to those ones, um,

(22:11):
because I think those conversations are maybe just as important
as other ones, whether it's about discovering your sexuality or um,
being comfortable in your own skin, or our experiences with
relationships or drugs or whatever. I think those taboo and
quotes topics are so important for other people like us

(22:32):
to listen to so they don't feel so shameful. Yeah, yeah,
I totally agree. And one thing that you both sort
of mentioned at the top and then I've heard in
several of your episodes is um kind of insecurity around
your body and and you you were mentioning like that

(22:58):
your hairiness and eyebrow as was there a point when
you realize that you had this different set of rules
as compared to your friends when it comes to like
clothing and um, and just this the beauty standard, which
is awful, but I think you can all create its awful.

(23:19):
Um yeah, I mean comparing yourself to your white friends. Um,
do you remember when that started to set in and
what that was like? Yeah? I feel like for me,
it's started like elementary school when I'd be like, oh, well,
no one looked like me because there was no other
Iranians around. And I never, like my hair was so

(23:41):
poofy and curly. I just like didn't know what to
do with it. So I always just had a ponytail,
Like I never did anything with my hair because I
just didn't know what to do. It's not like my
mom was telling me what to do. So I always
had this ponytail, and I just wish I could have
straight hair so I could do other stuff with it.
You know, it's never really an option. It's just like
if I leave my hair out, it looks very poofy.
And at the time, I remember it was like Princess

(24:03):
Bride or not Princess Bride, Princess Diaries, and I was like,
I need a Princess Diaries like makeover. Well, all of
a sudden, her hair got all poofy too, straight out
of nowhere, and I was like, well, that's the dream.
I was never we've never talked about that, but ever,
like my sisters were like, damn, I need to go
from poof to princess, and that like you know, of

(24:25):
course never happened because my mom was like, I'm not
buying you a hair straightener, and I was like, my
life is the worst, you know, uh. And also like
I never had cool clothes growing up, Like my mom
would buy me jeans and like kind of like larger
shirts to wear to kind of like hide my body.
So I never truly understood how to dress myself in

(24:46):
any way, like I had no sense of fashion because
like my mom, she has her look, but her look
is a very classic. She wears like pant suits all
the time because she's a working woman. So she's like,
I wear pant suits. They're conservative, they're nice, but you
know they're not over the top and it doesn't any attention.
And that's how my mom dressed me basically very bland,
don't pull any attention. Like I was basically in like
little pant suits for most of my life, Like I

(25:07):
wasn't really allowed to stray too far from that. And
as I got older and started kind of like picking
out my own clothes, like that's when I was like, oh,
I can wear bright colors. I can like fit in
with the other girls who wearing like flowers. And like
how earrings, Like I didn't have my ear piers for
most of my youth, Like I got my ear piers
in high school when I was like one day like,
well I'm going to go do and they can't really

(25:30):
stop me because it's not like it's that like just
regular ear piercings and your lobes, like that's not scandalous,
Like that's okay, And so like I I I had to,
you know, fight for a lot, and I was rejected
for most of it to try and like fit in
with the other girls, like to be able to paint
my nails even just pink, or go to like in

(25:50):
sync concerts, which I really wanted to do. But my
parents were like, what is that. We don't understand what
what your interests are or why you would have an
interest in a boy band because I'm dying to feel
because I'm Yeah, so it was. It started pretty young
when I started to realize how different I was and
how I just really didn't have a chance of blending

(26:11):
in with the other girls. And it was hard. It
took a lot to get over that. Yeah, I relate
to that a lot. I I my mom also she
my mom was very fashionable, but um, it didn't really
translate here. Like we she always dress us up in
very interesting outfits. Um, and I love my clothes, but
like people would always look at me weird and like

(26:33):
I also wore a lot of baggy T shirts or um,
me and my sister would kind of match all the time,
or she we would have like little pomp pumps in
her hair and me and my older sister we had
accents growing up, So I immediately knew always different because
I always got me fun of for my accent. Um,
because my mom taught us English with like hooked on
phonics and like she has an accent as well, So
it was kind of like I'm gonna learn it the

(26:53):
way my mom says it kind of thing. But I
had really bad I sight growing up, and so my
mom od us those like chains that old people wear
with their glasses, like where it attaches to the backs
and so it's like a necklace. And so we were
always like the weird nerdy kids that got like bullied constantly.
I got bullied, like just relentlessly throughout every school I

(27:16):
went to. And um, uh, so I knew it was different.
Um my hair wasn't as curly as it became when
I was in elementary school. I remember a very distinct moment.
I was playing with a friend in my house. She
was my next door neighbor, and she was white, and
we were like dragging. I was like forever reason, like
dragging her by her arms, like we were like playing

(27:36):
or whatever, and she looked at my feet and she
was like, your toes are hairy, and I was mortified.
I was like seven or eight years old. I think
it was eight years old, and I was like, oh,
I'm a monster. Like she I was like, she doesn't
have hairy toes, Like what the hell? And so I
remember that so clearly, even though it was like twenty

(27:57):
years ago, and um so yeah, that was a big
part of my realizing like, oh not everyone has hair
on their toes and oh not everyone has really hairy
arms or whatever. And I remember I shaved my eyebrows
in seventh grade. I shaved them. I shaved the middle
of them because I didn't want to get a unibrow.
And I went to sleep and the next morning my
mom looked at me when she woke me up, and
she was like, what did you do? And I was

(28:20):
like what, And so, um yeah, I always felt really bizarre.
And I went to middle school in high school in
a neighborhood that had a lot of Filipinos and a
lot of Asians, and so growing up with them, who
for the most part have very minimal body hair, that
was insane because I'd be at pe and my friend

(28:41):
would be like, I have a shaved in five days,
and I like, I shaved this morning and I already
you could feel my hair back, like I couldn't already
feel my hair coming back. And even that, even wearing
shorts to pe was a huge deal because my parents
run me wear pants, and for the most part I
did were sweatpants. But when I was at school, I
could wear shorts. And I remember, um, my older sister

(29:03):
wasn't allowed to shave, and I was like, you know what,
fuck it, I'm gonna shave. So I was like in
seventh or sixth grade and I remember going to my
mom's shower and like grabbing your razors starting to shave.
But she was like she found me and she was like,
what are you doing? And I was like everyone else
does it. I don't like my hair like I want to,
like I want to be like normal. And after I
started shaving, my older sister started shaving. Um, and uh,

(29:27):
I mean it's like it kind of made gave me
a complex about my body hair and like I ended
up getting leather hair removal and like a large part
of my body when I was older, and um, now
there's like a whole feminist movement about accepting your body
here and I'm like, well you wait for that, like
I mean, like, I mean, I personally, I believe that like,
you're just as feminist if you choose to remove it,

(29:49):
if you or if you choose to keep it. It's
all about your choice. But I do think being Arab
American gave gives girls a complex about their hair, especially
if you're raised with pretty harald with people, and especially
your eyebrows. I think my dad has very bushy eyebrows,
and me and my sisters, I'll got his eyebrows for
whatever reason mine. Actually no, I think about my mom's

(30:10):
eyebrows because they're kind of finer, and I don't. And
I think, honestly, I think after shaving them, my eyebrows
were like as as punishment, we're not going to grow back. Um.
But but yeah, I think you know you're weird pretty early.
And I I lived with a unibrow for most of
my youth until one day I also took a razor

(30:30):
and shaved it off. And now I'm obsessive compulsive about
my eyebrows. Eyebrows, Yeah, because I you know what, my
whole life, I've been you know, called like one eyebrow girl,
like worm girl, for having like an eyebrow, one eyebrow
going all the way across and I was like, never again.
And now I keep my eyebrows meticulous. No, and his

(30:50):
eyebrows are so ideal. I got my eyebrows micro bladed
and I filled them in every morning and it's the
vein of my existence, just like I got I'm Harry
everywhere else but my freaking eyebrows. And it's just like
really like I can have hair on my elbow but
not on my eyebrows, like just well, if I don't
take care of them, they get crazy. Look great though.

(31:12):
Yeah the thickness, yeah, but that's that that is an upside.
Our hair is pretty thick usually, Um, we can handle
the sun. I don't know, um, but yeah, you I
think you know you're weird by really early. I think
when I was a toddler, we were in ballet and

(31:32):
my we were allowed to be in ballet until like
my dad deemed it inappropriate. But I remember really enjoying
it and feeling normal back then, and I have I
have a pretty good memory for someone that was like
young at that time, but I do have very distinct memories.
And I was like two or three in ballet class
and um, not feeling different. And I was also like

(31:53):
a toddler shirt. But I think when you get older
and then your parents are like, oh, you can't be
in ballet anymore because you don't. I don't want you
to wear tights. I don't want you to wear this.
And I remember I wanted to learn I was obsessed
with the cello. I'm still obsessed with the cello and
I wanted to learn it more than anything. And when
you're in fourth grade, I think you pick, like what

(32:14):
instrument you want to play in band. I wanted to
join the orchestra, and I wanted to be like play
the violin and then go to cello. And my mom
at the time was listening to this like kind of
fanatical religious woman and she has admitted that she was
like in the wrong. But my mom had been told
that string instruments were the instruments of the devil, and
so I wasn't allowed to learn string instruments and I

(32:37):
like resorted to learning clarinet because I was like, well,
and then I ended up playing bass clarinet when I
was in middle school because I was like, this is
the closest I'll get to the show. Um, but yeah,
it's just like having these and like not being allowed
to sleep over anywhere, not being allowed to to go
on like sleepover trips for school or anything like that,

(32:59):
you're feel like the outsider and that everyone knows you're
the outsider because we don't allowed to do everything we have. Oh,
the biggest thing I like to this is having weird lunches.
Like we would come to school and my mom like
for the most part, had like we we like like
peanut butter and jelly or whatever. My mom would be
really cute and like like sometimes she would put like
I don't know, like make them into weird shapes or

(33:21):
like or like write my name and Arabic on the
bag and so little things like that, or like we
would something my mom would always do. She would use
Peter bread for for our sandwiches, and so that was
already like a burrito. They're like, why do you have
a burrito? And like what kind of bread is that?
Just like I don't know, little things like that pile
smelly food does not sit well with the other young

(33:42):
kids in the cafeteria. Yeah, yeah, that's funny, because I
mean it's not, but it's funny because I read a
lot of people when I was researching this said that
the thing about the lunches, making them feel like they
were sticking out or kids were ticking on them based
on what they were eating for lunch. Yeah, I mean

(34:05):
I love the food. I know it's delicious. Now where
I'm like, why was I so ashamed that I should
have been like, you're jealous? My food is amazing. Yeah,
I would say, I don't remember being like ashamed. I
just remember like knowing like, oh, I'm definitely not like you,
Like my friends would be like, I remember my mom
would use this like ntella, um, like like an Arabic
version of antella called like rotella or something, and um.

(34:28):
She would use it on pea bread and I remember,
and I would like let my classmates have a taste,
or like, oh, it's really yummy. Or she would boil almonds,
which is something that a lot of Arabs, So you
boil almonds so you can take the skin off. And
I remember I got my friends like addicted to the
almonds that were like, can you can bring more almonds tomorrow?
And so little things like that were like kind of cute.
And yeah, my parents raised us really, in my opinion,

(34:51):
really well, and I didn't feel I mean, the issues
I had with myself. I think we're just a combination
of things. But I don't, like, I don't want to
blame them for anything, because they are just the best
and they did their best. They just like just decided
to leave some stuff out. Sure, I mean, and that's

(35:13):
why we're on stuff. Mom never told you that's right,
that's right. I'm just kind of curious if when your
parents started saying I don't want you to wear X
y Z, was there ever in an explanation, and if so,
what was that or wasn't just I don't want you

(35:34):
to wear this. I don't think I have they're ever
really Mine was just just like my dad was like
because I said so, and there was no explanation, and
my mom would be like, it's because you know, like
young girls aren't supposed to dress this way. They need
to be conservative, and that was just like about that
was it, like it's just like you just need to
be a classy woman and not some like I don't

(35:55):
know just I mean, they would assume if you start, okay,
so this is the thing, if you start dressing like
showing too my skin, basically you will meet a man
who will get you addicted to drugs. And then you
will dine a crackhouse like that is. That is literally
like you wear one mini skirt and all of a sudden,
that is a gateway drug to heroin. Heroin but powerful.

(36:17):
But that is literally how they think. Like immigrant parents
are so scared, like they're like, oh no, I can't
who knows what's going to happen, you know, like you
can just get caught up in anything, and you're like, no,
I just will you know? Feel good? Um? Yeah, I
I think I don't know. I must have been an
element maybe like going into middle school. I remember we

(36:38):
were always not allowed to wear certain things, so I
think or like I was in like my fifth grade
talent show dancing like a Battery Boy song, and I
remember our outfit were shorts and my mom and dad
refused to let me wear them, and like in My
Defiant Self, I went on stage with short shorts soil
without them knowing, and my legs were hairy. It was
like whatever, and I was like I don't care. And

(37:00):
I danced and everyone looked at me and I was
like you and then um here I am. But yeah,
I think I got used to wearing a lot of
three quarter link shirts. I got used to wearing a
lot of like baggy like khaki pants or like like
those like the khakie material or whatever. And my dad
owned a retail store, but eventually and so we would
get a lot of my clothes from him. A lot

(37:20):
of Dicky's work where a lot of a lot of
like Vans and Converse shoes, and so I felt pretty
cool that I had access to that, but it was
also like a limited, a limited option arrange. And I
went to college and I realized, like, oh, I love
wearing shorts. I like the sun being on my legs,
and I um, in high school, I would like change

(37:41):
clothes in my car, but it was still so taboo,
and I was trying to get used to seeing my
body that way because I got in trouble a lot
when my parents would see photos of me in high
school wearing shorts, They're like, where do you even get these?
Because I would go to their shopping all the time.
I would um, Like when I learned to drive, I
would like drive around just anywhere, and um, yeah, I

(38:03):
think I really despise being told what not to do.
And I think, uh, it really influenced me and my character. Yeah, yeah,
I will answer your question. I think yes it did. Yes. Um,
this seems like a good place to pause for a second,
for one more quick break for word from our sponsor.

(38:28):
M hm, and we're back, Thank you sponsor. So let's
let's get back into it. Did you ever feel this
pressure to represent to be a good representation of being Muslim? Um, Like,
did you feel that? Definitely? Yeah, being a good Muslim,

(38:52):
being a good Arab American, being a good representation of
the Middle East, especially after nine eleven. My dad was like,
I mean, my it was just I think that eleven
was a huge changing like a turning point for a
lot of immigrants that were ostracized, and um, we had
to be the model versions of ourselves or else, I

(39:15):
don't know, Like we didn't want to prove them right.
And that's why every time we went to the airport,
we would get questioned constantly with these like quote random screenings,
and my parents were always so calm, and I was
so livid every time. And because my parents did not
want to cause any trouble, like they were they accepted
this the this state they were in or whatever. And

(39:35):
our bags would come back to us completely like ripped,
and and just like mutilated because they thought that we
were hiding something and I have no idea, and so
I would be so mad all the time. My parents
just had to brush it off because they liked, they
love being here, and they're proud to be American more
than I've ever seen anyone else be proud. Yeah. Yeah,

(39:57):
I feel like our parents are prouder than anyone because
they came here, worked so hard to go to school
and learn English and like make a career and like
make money and get health insurance, which is so important
to them, and then like have kids who like go
to college and they can afford to pay for college,
and it's like that's so much work to come from
a country where you don't even like speak the language
and build your whole life up like there. They wouldn't

(40:20):
do anything to jeopardize that because they have it all.
Like they're they're so strong, and like this goes for
like immigrant parents in general. They're so strong, they're so fearless,
and they're like because like it's terrifying to speak a
language that doesn't come naturally to you, like it's not
your first language, maybe it's not even your second language,

(40:41):
and you're and they're still putting themselves in this situation.
And that's why I think my my parents are just
truly the most remarkable people in my life. Like I
don't know how they did it. It's crazy. Like my
dad has come so far. He's literally out here commenting
on all my Instagram hosts. The comments are the best,
they're all like broken English. But he's still out here
saying that he likes our style. My parents love you

(41:03):
think emojis. Like it's crazy, Like I've come a long way,
it's crazy, and and I I appreciate them for raising
me the way they did. I think I wouldn't have
had it any other way. Like even though I had struggle,
I had a lot of struggles, and I'm sure Anna
did too. I think it made us stronger, you know.
I think it made us more independent and more rely
on ourselves. And um, I'm very open with my mom now.

(41:27):
I have a very amazing relationship and I wouldn't take
that back for anything. And uh yeah, I think where
I needed to be a little bit older for her
to be more open with me, which is okay. Like
I think she likes having it, Like she she's a
really amazing mother and she loves having kids, but I
think she also likes having a buddy. Yeah, you know, yeah,

(41:48):
were there any rules that around. I'm going to assume
the answers she has. Dating there was no such thing.
There was no such thing as dating. There's nothing like
that today. I was told at eighteen I could have
a boyfriend. Maybe I was, I can have a boyfriend
unless unless he's proposing to me the next day. I

(42:09):
can't date. It's not common for your You would have
to have a very very liberal Middle Easter parent for
them to be like, sure, more, I have a boyfriend,
but his name Josh Gray Mark Ryan. Yeah. Like I
have a boyfriend now and my parents love them and
it's fine. But like you know, I never brought like

(42:29):
if I was like talking to guys, I would never
I wouldn't even bring up anything about them. I would
never would I would make them girls when I was
talking to my parents and also with me, I I
am queer, and I would trying to I'm attracted to
both men and women, and I um, that was something
that completely just kept to myself. Even now, I I
feel like you get used to living a double life.

(42:52):
You have yourself the way you are, and you have
yourself and friend of your family, and dating was not
an option. Uh. And in my my reaction to that
was to despise uh marriage, despise monogamy, and despise like, uh,
this institutionalized need to get married. So so I still

(43:13):
feel that way. I don't want to have a family.
I don't want to have a husband, and that's not
their fault. I just have rebelled in that way as well.
And that's something my parents I think have to accept eventually.
But um, yeah, no dating was allowed, not even like
like we we had like like six pm like who
we have to be home over night for dinner, Like
we got dark out exactly Like there was no like

(43:36):
a late curfew like like it was just and there
was no grounding either. We were just like not we
were already grounded. Um. But yeah, like I had a
lot of guy friends growing up. But I think my parents,
I think they just assumed I we were at arms length.

(43:58):
And I truly was ntil college, Like I was very
like anti touch until college and I started to like
explore more because I was like touching that so bad.
And then um, but yeah, dating was not allowed even now. Um,
it's just not I think my my parents would love

(44:20):
if we all married great Muslim men. And like my
older sister got engaged recently, he converted for her just
on paper. I think it's very just like for my
dad's peace of mind and um, and now he's so happy,
he's the happiest I've ever seen him. Like, not only
she doctor, she's engaged one. So I cannot top that.
So I'm not going to try. Yeah, yeah, that's probably wise. Um.

(44:47):
So something that probably will come as a surprise too.
It probably won't come as a surprise to you, and
it probably won't come to a surprise to anyone. But
representation of Middle Eastern women, rum our, Middle easterners general
and the media is pretty terrible. Um yeah, yeah, yeah.
Is that something that um as a child, did you

(45:14):
notice that or internalize that or I mean I know
now looking back that it's you must be able to say, like,
oh my god, I only saw this and this, But um,
as a child not seeing yourself or only seeing negative
portrayals almost exclusively, was that was that the case for

(45:34):
both of you? Yeah? I mean only person I knew
of growing up was Christian I'm on poor she was
the only woman. She was a journalist I looked up to.
I always made my dad put the news on when
she was on, and that was all I had. I
was like, she's a journalist. Wow, Like maybe one day
I'll do that. It's just something. Look at her, She's
on TV. She's doing it, and that was it. Like

(45:56):
I had no sense of anyone else. Like to me,
I was like, and you know, when we can only
be doctors, lawyers, engineers, because that's what your parents tell
you literally from the womb, is like point at the
doctor who delivered you and be like that's your future
and that's that. And you're like okay, But like I
seeing her have this kind of you know, well, I mean, Christian,

(46:17):
I'm on poor Is. She's not nobody. She actually is
a very respected journalist. But like to get to that
point where I could be, like I could be a
writer or you know, I mean podcasting. At the time,
I had no sense of it, but like it didn't exist.
But to be someone who could report on things in
the news, and and that was really crazy to me.

(46:37):
And I was like, well, that's kind of what I
want to do. I know, I want to get into
some sort of like news. At the time, I didn't
know what I knew I wanted to write. I had
this idea like I would be a journalist or something
like that. And I never said that out loud to
my parents because it would kill them and they would
be mean about it. But that's what I had and
there was no I think that was it. Like I

(46:59):
had no sense of anyone else. Yeah, that was the
only profession I thought I could go to. That wasn't
one of the ones my parents wanted. Yeah, I I
never saw myself at all, and that really made me
feel like nothing was possible. Like I very early on,
I knew I loved making people laugh, and I think
deep down I wanted to be a comedian. I never

(47:20):
told a soul. I never told anyone that I wanted
to be a comedian. Um. And then I studied a
lot of photography and I took a lot of like
photo and art history class in high school, and I realized, like,
maybe I can make a living out of this, and
so then I wanted to study art. But my parents,
I mean they were very supportive at the time. They

(47:40):
very supportive now, but at the time we had our
troubles and um uh, yeah, I just never saw anyone
that looked like me doing anything that I wanted to do.
I never saw any comedians that looked like me, and
never saw any artists that looked like me, any filmmakers,
any directors, any writers. Like I'm a filmmaker now and
I write and direct my own stuff. But if I
had seen someone doing that when I was younger, I

(48:02):
would have done it a lot earlier. I would have
known it was possible a lot earlier and known that
like that was an option for me. I think that's
why I'm sometimes envious of those that are raised in
the entertainment industry, because they're raised already knowing it's a
possible career choice. Um, and yeah, I always wrote a
lot of poetry. I was a big writer, a big

(48:23):
reader growing up, and so I knew I loved the
arts and I loved writing. I love creating things. But
I never saw anyone doing it, and I didn't stop
me from doing it on my own, but I did
stop me from thinking it was something I could live
off of. And that's kind of unfortunate because for like
most of high school, even though I was an art
and everything, I could convinced myself that I wanted to
be a psychiatrist. I had convinced myself wanting to be

(48:45):
like a neurologist or something because I love my like
the idea of the brain. I was very like depressed,
and so the idea of mental illness was something that
was very fascinating to me. And I convinced myself that
that like, I can do my own stockle on the side,
but for money, I have to do this. Um that
I fail ape chemistry, and so I was like maybe
not um so UM, yeah, I think that's a huge

(49:07):
reason why we started the podcast is to be more
visible to the younger versions of ourselves. Like all my
work really revolves around the younger version of me, like
making sure she would be looking at me being like, yeah,
I can't do this, whether it's poetry or filmmaking or
photography or podcasting or anything. I think allowing ourselves this
platform has really been empowering for the both of us

(49:30):
and um because our voices are important, even if they
weren't that accessible back then. And I remember Sarah Silverman
being the only person I thought kind of looked like
me because she had like dark hair and talked about
depression a lot, and I appreciate her for that. She
like talked about not wanting kids and um talked about
like just I don't know like things that related to

(49:50):
but she was a white Jewish woman, like I had
to draw from very small images of myself that weren't
even me. But yeah, uh I think, um that was
That's a huge reason why I want to stay in
the industry and keep working in the industry is because
I need to represent myself because no one else will. Yeah,
we've talked about on this show before so many times.

(50:13):
The importance of seeing yourself represented and what you're describing
sounds kind of cyclical, right, because if you never see yourself,
then maybe you think that isn't an option available for you.
And so then with it continues like we're only hearing
from the same types of people on the same types
of stories. Um, so I am glad that's changing. Have

(50:38):
you do you feel like, are there things that you've
seen that are positive of signs of change other than
both of you out there making consents? Of course? Oh yeah,
I think social media helps a lot. I think it
helps open the door for people like like on Twitter, Um,

(50:59):
like different magazines are out here, like Muslim Girl mag
like there's all these different groups that you can like
turn to and you can see what their feeds and
they're putting out positive, you know, um information about like
who you are and what, like how to deal with things,
and I I, you know, like you I mean, I
hate to say Facebook because Facebook is the worst, but

(51:19):
like groups on you know, those kind of social media
or even like Instagram, you can like follow hashtags of
you know, like women who like like I do, with eyebrows,
and it's all these like beautiful like women of color
with their eyebrows, and I'm like, wow, what a world.
You know, I'm obsessed with eyebrows. But you know, and
and that I think really helps broaden our horizon, especially
now that we all have phones and you know, of

(51:41):
course there's a dark side to all of it, but
I think having the access to explore, especially even like
getting podcasts and like hearing our show, it's just it's
important for the representation because now it's just so much
more widespread and you can access it anywhere, especially because
of the majority of podcasts and podcasts sinners are white men,

(52:01):
Like they're hosted by white men or their listeners are
white men. So we're already like trying to break that
that barrier. I think as much as I appreciate, and
I really do appreciate, all those magazines that are catered
towards those niches, whether it's clear identity, whether it's a
religion or being, um, a marginalized person, I think unless

(52:22):
you seek out those things, you won't know they're there.
And I think it's going to take a long time
for them to be mainstream, to beat to to have
a person of color on the cover of a magazine
without it being a big deal, or you know what
I mean, it shouldn't. I want those magazines that are
specific to those people and in two different people to

(52:42):
be mainstream too, you know what I mean. Like that's
the that's what bothers me. It's just like like me
and Anna were on a podcast panel in Philadelphia this
past summer and it was a huge podcasting event, and um,
they're multiple panelists, multiple panels going on. Me and Anna,
We're on two panels that were like about being like

(53:03):
bringing diversity into the podcast landscape and like not being white.
But then we found out there was a woman in
podcasting panel with all white women and so as much
as that is helpful for us to be there and
talk about those issues. We can also talk about other
things we don't have to, you know what I mean,
Like our expertise are not just being diverse, Yeah, exactly. So, Um,

(53:26):
I think it's it's just baby steps and change takes
so long and as much as good, as much good
as there has been in the recent history, I think
we have a long way to go. But yeah, just like,
for example, I'm really mad about the Aladdin movie coming
up because I thought, like the role of Jasmine was
like the first sure thing, like that's an arib rowle,

(53:49):
like an arable woman could finally be on screen doing
what she's like, like the person the only person that
she could like grab hold of us growing up like
who she was. And then they gave a to a
half Indian, half white person and that's totally fine. Like
I'm sure maybe the more like the average American or
Western or can't tell a difference between what they look

(54:09):
like between like me and this half white, half Indian
maybe will look similar to them, But to me it
was important, like to me that representation was given away
when it should have been ours. And so I think
I think people don't realize the importance of that, and

(54:30):
especially big studio heads that are just like in it
for the money. Like whether it's this Lena Dunna movie
that's coming out that's directed by Lena Dunna. I'm a
very privileged white woman. She's directing and adapting a Syrian
a Syrian refugee story. Like really, like that's the person
you selected. Like it's just as long as white maybe

(54:52):
like slightly ignorant people are in power, they're going to
keep hiring themselves and not think that like maybe the
story can be better told from an actual person, like
a Syrian director or Syrian filmmaker's point of view. So
I think there's a long way to go. I feel
like I've gone on trouble on our show for like
making it seem like I hate white people, and that's
not the point. I just I think I'm just very

(55:13):
honest about the power structure of the society and if
if if people are uncomfortable with me, like I call
I can I say whitey all the time just like
as a way, like to be playful, But um, I've
gotten in trouble for it. But it's not about hating
the white man. It's about criticizing them and knowing they

(55:33):
have to make an effort to change. Like Spielberg and Abrahams,
the people that higher Liman done him for that project
there just as at fault as she is for accepting
that project. Like they were the ones that chose her,
they were the ones that deemed her appropriate for the role.
So there's it's just a huge toxic uh society. And
maybe I'm just more attuned to the filmmaking side of

(55:55):
it and more sensitive to that because I'm a filmmaker.
But um, but yeah, I think we have a long
way to go. Sorry for this long tangent. I'm just
very heated about this topic. I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm
gonna stuff. No, it's great, you're just calling it like
you see it. Um. So, for the younger version of
of you that maybe is listening to this and it

(56:18):
is self conscious about her, her eyebrows or whatever it
might be, do you have any advice that you would
that you wish you had gotten, or that you would give.
Probably that it gets better that you're not gonna get
stuck in this like phase you're in, that you will
be constantly evolving as a person, Your parents will be evolving.

(56:39):
Your life is going to change, like things are gonna happen.
You're gonna learn to love your eyebrows. Bushy eyebrows are
gonna be trendy again, you know, like these things. The
world is constantly changing and there's room, there's space for everybody,
and you will find your space. Even if you start
to realize your weirdness is actually more unique than you thought,
standing out is actually pretty cool. Like you you're gonna

(57:00):
learn and see that it wasn't all Like You're not
going to be stuck in that moment forever where you're
like dreading your life and your experiences because your parents
are too strict, or because you look a different way,
or because you just are weird in general, like just different.
Everything changes and everything you know, you're you're You'll learn

(57:21):
to love yourself eventually, and if not, there's always therapy.
I feel like mental illness is not discussed at all
in like Middle Eastern communities, and I think it's so
important to be like, if you need to talk to someone,
don't think because your parents don't understand why that you
shouldn't go and explore that option and said I think,
I mean if I had known that bushy eyebrows would

(57:41):
come back. That was just if I had a time machine. Um,
but yeah, just knowing that the things that make you
feel weird and the things that make you feel so
different and strange are the things that will make you
so unique and beautiful and strong, and um, mental illness
the same thing. Like I struggled a lot when I

(58:01):
was younger, and it was not something to talk about,
it was not something to address. And so encouraging myself
to be more to to take care of my mental
health and to know that I'm not broken, I'm not damaged.
I wrote a lot of poetry about going through mental
illnesses and like depression and anxiety and suicidal thoughts and um,
I used that as a catharsis in a therapy for myself,

(58:23):
but it wasn't enough. And so taking your health into
your own hands, even if your parents are a little
bit stubborn about it or a little bit maybe they've
never experienced it before, maybe they don't know that you're
going through something. And especially immigrant communities, they're not very
open about mental health. And so I think knowing that

(58:44):
like it will you will be okay. Like just if
you stick around long enough, you'll you'll realize like weird
is a good thing. I love being weird now I
love being a weirdo. I love being a nerd. I
loving a weirdo. I love those things that made me
feel awful When I was younger, it made me feel
like an alien, and now I love being that and

(59:05):
so UM, I think the hardest thing for me is
because I was very suicidal growing up, and so it
breaks my heart to think of like another person out
there that feels the same way I did. And so
just knowing that it gets mean, Like I hate that,
it's kind of it sounds cliche, but it does get
easier if you just let yourself grow and learn and

(59:30):
slowly learn to love yourself. And I'm still learning to
love myself. It's just definitely a process. Just find things
that make you happy, even if it's like for only
little moments, whether it's poetry, whether it's photography, whether it's
um writing or anything. I think knowing that you're important
just the way you are and all train yourself as
not going to make you any happier. It's just going

(59:51):
to make you more confused about your identity. Uh. And
I don't know if I'm answering this question, I just
keep talking how you are. That's wonderful, it vice And
I think for someone when you're younger and you hear
that over and over again, it's hard. It can be
hard to accept. That's what That's what I didn't want
to I mean, like, because if I was hearing this

(01:00:11):
when I was younger, if I was like, it'll get easier,
I'd be like you, like, no, it doesn't have no
idea what's in my head. You have no idea what's
what I'm going through? But um, you do feel very alone,
and I think being being okay with yourself when you're
alone needs to happen in the process of loving yourself.
And so just knowing that, like it will take time

(01:00:35):
to do that. Yeah, I don't know. I think that
that is a wonderful place to end it. Unless you
either of you have anything that you would like to add.
I mean, that's it. Thank you so much for having us,
I know, thank you so much for having us and
means a lot to us. Yeah, thank you so much

(01:00:58):
for coming on. This was such a love a conversation
and I had a wonderful time. Come back. You're always
welcome of course, Oh thank you. Yeah, we'll definitely come back. Um,
where can the good listeners find you? Well? Ethnic Ambiguous
is our podcast is on the How Stuff Works I
Heart Radio Network. UM we you know we're on iTunes.

(01:01:20):
You can find a Spotify, stitcher, anywhere you find podcasts.
You can find us on I Heart Radio app. You
know we're out here. Um, you can follow us on Twitter.
You can follow us on Instagram. We're constantly posting about
UM news and things that come up on our show.
Instagram and Twitter, Um we are. Twitter is very active.
We respond to everyone. We talked to everyone. UM yeah,

(01:01:42):
and you can follow me at Anna host ne a
A N N A h O S s n I
E H on Twitter and then ethnically ambiguous is Twitter
is ethnically am A m B. And then Instagram is
ethnically and big A M B I G. And you
can follow me on Instagram at Shiro hero a h
e E r O H E r oh and then
on Twitter it's your hero six and so keep up

(01:02:06):
with us. And um, we love interacting with our listeners
and I think it's one of the main things that like,
I don't know, we tried to emphasize is that we're
people just like you. I can't wait to read the comments,
um dad's comments. Yeah, they're great and his dad has
the best comments. Um. And you can always email uh

(01:02:29):
this show this podcast at mom stuff at a staff
works dot com, and you can find us on Twitter
at mom Stuff Podcast and on Instagram at stuff Bob
Never Told You. Thanks as always to our producer Trevor Young,
and thanks to you for listening.