The Psychology of Architecture, Part 2

The natural world evokes various feelings in the mind, but humans spend a great deal of their time within spaces that they themselves designed and built out of the environment. In this Stuff to Blow Your Mind two-parter, Robert and Joe consider the ways that architecture impacts our thoughts and feelings.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:03):
Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, a production of
I Heart Radios How Stuff Works. Hey, are you welcome
to Stuff to Blow your Mind? My name is Robert
Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and we are back with
part two of our exploration of of architecture in the mind.
That's right. In our first episode, which we do encourage

(00:25):
you to go back and listen to if you have
not already, we discussed the natural world, and then we
discussed the architectural world, this world of artificial shapes and
objects and designs and layouts that that we've made out
of that natural world, and in many cases we find
ourselves living almost exclusively within those environments. Uh, and the

(00:45):
environments of cities especially. Yeah. We discussed studies about the
psychological and cognitive impacts of different types of interior spaces,
things like uh, color of interior spaces, ceiling height, and
all kinds of stuff like that. Today we're taking a
turn into the cursed realm. That's right. So, to best
to understand the typical functionality of a healthy brain, scientists

(01:07):
often study cases of illness and injury. So perhaps to
help us understand better understand the impact of great architecture
and uh and even like the different attributes of attributes
of every day architecture, we should also turn, uh, you know,
away from the world of vaulted cathedrals and pyramids and
zigaratts uh uh and instead look at to the dark

(01:30):
sorcery of architecture, cursed architecture, if you will. By the way,
if you do a web search for cursed architecture, you'll
find a lot of examples of of terrible, usually quite
quite insane home and building designs. Uh. This what was
this a Twitter account you shared with me? I think
cursed cursed architect or cursed architecture is a Twitter thing.

(01:51):
But also if you just look around for like worst
renovations and so forth, that there are a number of
different websites that will include a host of these photos,
a lot of them hosted on like Pinterest or Instagram.
But I swear I was looking at some of these
less Friday, and I was just I was by myself
laughing out loud so hard at them, and sometimes I

(02:13):
couldn't even really quite put a finger on why. Yes,
but the I know exactly what you mean. I was
also laughing really hard at this stuff you sent me. Uh,
the one. I love the ones where there is like
a ledge that cannot be accessed in any way. Yeah,
it's almost like the places where there's like, you know,
a room with the high ceiling and then against the

(02:34):
wall up above you know where the second floor would be.
There's like a hallway, but there's there are no stairs
leading to it. Yes, stairways to nowhere. Um, you know,
weird weird doors to nowhere or doors in the middle
of walls, you know, anything where stairs have been have
been altered drastically or are a great source of hilarity

(02:56):
in these shots. And it it's again it's weird to
try and like figure at exactly why some of these
are funny, because you know, sometimes people just doing the
best with the limitations of an old building, right, an
already weird layout, say, or an older, larger building that
has been sliced into apartments. I remember visiting London with
my wife like fifteen years ago. I think it's staying

(03:18):
you know, weird old hotel where the first thing you
did when you entered the room was walked down a
flight of stairs. You know, things like things like that.
But but then again, like given the limitations of the building,
perhaps that was the best way to go about it.
Oh I I recently stayed in a in a building
in Paris with a hilarious staircase. It was like a
spiral staircase. It wasn't quite a spiral. It was like

(03:39):
a rectangular spiral staircase. And there was no stair there
that was flat. I mean it was angled one way
or another, even outer in and I imagine going up
those things after after a night out on the town
might be might be quite perilous. We had a work
trip we had to do to Chicago once we stayed
in a hotel. If I'm remembering this correctly, on every

(04:02):
floor there was a short stairway, stairway to a wall
going nowhere, going nowhere except to a painting I think,
like a painting of a creepy fairy woman. Yeah, it was.
It was weird. So that sort of stuff. There's that
sort of stuff. But then there are other examples where
it's like so clearly somebody just did not care or
did not have time to care, and did not look

(04:24):
back to corrected things, where like a toilet can no
longer close because there's an overhanging the way. You know,
weird cases where a water faucet comes out over the
edge of a small sink or does not come out
far enough to actually empty into the sink. Uh. Some
of them just had gross implications. I think there was

(04:46):
one I was looking at that was just like a
bathroom with a ton of urinals and like a thick
shag carpet or yeah, any kind of carpeted bathroom scenario
is h it is awful. But yeah, I love the
ones though, where where not only did whoever you know
renovated this, because clearly there's not really design elements they're
not not only did they fail, but someone did this

(05:08):
and thought close enough they just leave right um And
and this gets back to this idea of design though,
like there is this ideal version in mind where an
architect is consulted. Uh, you know, they're they're architects, they're engineers,
and there's this there's this process of intentional design before

(05:28):
something is built. But of course, historically and even sometimes contemporarily,
that's not always the same. For instance, I was talking
with a friend of mine recently about how that when
they were younger, they were you know, they were they
had this job and they were helping somebody build some buildings,
and uh, there was just kind of the sense of
like where we're just gonna throw it up. We're just
gonna throw up some walls, and you know what goes

(05:49):
into a building. You gotta have a floor, you gotta
have walls, roof, you know. Yeah, and and so I guess,
you know, certainly with older buildings, and it's going to
vary in different parts of the world. You know, there
may be less intent in what is being built. It
may be more about we need a structure at the
end of the week, let's build a structure. And maybe
the individuals building and are not not quite you know,

(06:10):
the craftspeople that the task requires. But it's you know,
it's one thing to screw up a renovation or to
you know, moment monumentally fail on a toilet installation. It's
quite another to actually design and construct an entire building
or multiple buildings that have a debilitating effect on our
mental well being. And the world is is full of

(06:30):
examples in which a stark or a less traditional architectural
design draws the ire of local inhabitants right often due
to the fact that it replaced a more traditional building
and or stands alongside traditional examples. Um, And you can
pretty much you can. You can drive around any major
city and you can see that you can see all right,

(06:52):
traditional building, traditional building, weird modern building, and you can
be almost positive that at some point, uh, the neighbors
were upset about this, or maybe are still upset about this.
Oh yeah. It seems like every major city, if you
talk to the locals, they'll have like the one ugly
building that they hate. Yeah. Uh. And and blogs are
devoted to this sort of thing as well. Now, for

(07:13):
my money, I sometimes find this a bit dumb. Sometimes
someone builds a cool modern home alongside a bunch of
traditional little boxes, and people with a more traditional taste
they get bent out of shape over it, And I
think we have to realize that someone us want to
live in weird gothic concrete apocalypse bunkers, and that's ultimately okay. Um.

(07:34):
But then I go back to the McMansion example we
mentioned in the first episode, the idea that you know,
developer comes along and builds a colossal house, as much
house as as possible in a given a lot, and
that kind of thing I do find obnoxious. But then again,
like when somebody comes along it's like, yes, that's it.
That's the exact amount of house I want, and I
don't want to mow al on. So to a certain extent,

(07:56):
some of these concerns are a bit ridiculous to even
get too wrapped up in it. I mean, it's just
people's tastes are going to vary. Some people want traditional,
some people want modern, some people want ultramodern, and some
people maybe want to piss off the neighbors. Oh sure,
I mean the spite houses are a whole wonderful thing
on their own. Uh, we could come back to that,
but yeah. I mean, I think one thing that's important

(08:17):
to keep in mind as we go forward and think
about the subject is the difference between just like our
esthetic preferences and what actually has psychological effects on people,
Like the difference between what kind of school building seems
nice to you versus what kind of school building actually
has measurable outcomes on children's performance in in their education.

(08:40):
Absolutely so, in figuring it out and trying to decide, like,
you know, how much of it is, uh to what
ex soon is there's some sort of intrinsically debilitating aspect
to certain architectural styles or approaches versus this idea of
just personal taste. One has to visit the topic of
brutalist dark texture. Brutal soccer architecture emerged out of Switzerland,

(09:04):
I believe, in the nineteen fifties, was especially popular in
the fifties and sixties, and you can find it around
the world, but especially in the UK, the US, Canada,
Western Europe and the Eastern Bloc and in UM the
former Soviet Union, and generally with brutalist architecture, you're dealing with, um,
you know, stark, imposing geometric designs built with lots of concrete. Uh.

(09:28):
It is often stark, and some of what's classified as
a brutalist I see as as as beautiful, creative or
even evocative. Uh you know some some of them the
designs feel very just ultra modern in in a way,
or sometimes ultra modern kind of like a retro fashion,
you know. Um. Other examples are are harder for me

(09:48):
to love. But again, your mindleage is going to vary
when it comes to brutalist architecture. A lot of what's
most recognized in brutalist architecture are these large surfaces of
exposed concrete, and in fact that's where the name comes
from the name of brutalist architecture, does not come from
it somehow being brutal, like a like a brutality in
Mortal Kombat? Is that a thing? Brutality? Okay, you're the

(10:12):
m K expert here um, But no, it comes from
the phrase betem brute, which means raw concrete. And that's
because he has very often has these large raw concrete features.
One example I think we mentioned in the last episode
is Boston City Hall, which I think is, you know,
one of the most famous brutalist structures, which personally, I
think is extremely esthetically pleasing. I like it a lot,

(10:34):
though I know a lot of people hate it. It's
apparently just a controversial building. I was saying, one of
the things I like about it is um, at least
from some angles of the building, there are ways that
it has sort of like a variable structure that can
be like horizontally uh permeated, but then sort of spreads
out as it goes up. And in a way to me,

(10:55):
it is a concrete structure that sort of mimics a forest.
Something about it look kind of like organic, like a
copse of trees that you could walk into. Uh. And
I really like that about it. Yeah. I look at
this image of it, and it it defies sort of
easy identification, Like I look at it and I would
not be able to turn and necessarily draw it. You know. Um,

(11:17):
there's something that you it asks you to map it out.
You know. It feels like an environment of concrete as
much as you know it is a structure of concrete. Yeah,
and I think it incorporates some of the elements that
we're talking about in the last episode that make for
good structures, Like it has some pattern and complexity it.

(11:37):
It has this organic feeling type of variability in the structure.
It's somewhat looks like trees. Yeah, there's a sort of
mcs er vibe to it to a certain instant, A
little bit that too, Yeah, but not in a way
that makes it functionally confusing, right, but not in a
way where it seems to break the laws of nature,
physics or anything. So when when we're when we're dealing

(11:58):
with architecture of this, I think there are a few
things we have to to realize. First of all, and
we'll come back to this later, is that architecture does
not exist in a vacuum like a building. Uh, even
just a highly designed building. It is not does not
exist independent of say, what that building is for, It
doesn't exist independent of history, etcetera. But another big problem

(12:22):
is that architecture is an art form, a design medium,
and a product or practice. It's not just about form
and function and art since it is in part art
is not just about making you feel good. I'll admit
that most of my favorite visual artists have have you know,
typically not been concerned with making people feel good? Um,

(12:45):
I think of like Irving Norman or hr Geiger or
Brugal Bosch. You know, I love these artists and you
might love them too, But do you want them influencing
the power of your physical environment? I mean, I suppose
on some of you do if you're attempted to frame
a print of it on your wall, But are then
you But would you inflict it upon the neighborhood which

(13:07):
you looked at, upon a whole city? Do you want
to live in a Bosch painting? So I wanted to
discuss a few examples of unpopular buildings, or buildings that
at least have been very unpopular with segments of the population.
One of them, and I would consider this an extreme example,

(13:27):
is the House of Soviets in Kaliningrad located UH in
Kaliningrad Oblast, an exclave of Russia on the Baltic Sea.
And this is a historically Prussian area, but again is
it was part of the Soviet Union and is part
of Russia today. The House of Soviets is built on
the grounds, but not the exact site, of the former

(13:49):
Konigsberg Castle, which was destroyed during the Second World War.
But the House of the Soviets, built in the seventies
does not look like a Teutonic castle. Uh. Instead, it
looks It is frequently described as looking like the head
of a giant robot that has been buried up to
the neck in the earth. It looks like almost kind

(14:09):
of a gigantic concrete battery. Yeah, yeah, yeah, maybe huge
concrete air conditioning unit with eyes. Yeah. It does appear
to have eyes and kind of a mouth and even horns. Perhaps.
Some locals have also called it the monster in the past. Again,
it's the House of Soviets. If you look it up online,
you'll find plenty of pictures of it. I will note

(14:32):
that you will find two different versions generally, and that's
because it used to have more of a concrete dark appearance,
certainly more brutalist, like clearly brutalist in its appearance, because
it is often held up as a great example of
brutalist architecture. But it was in two thousand five, i believe,
which also coincided with a visit by Vladimir Putin, that

(14:53):
it was paint painted in new color. So now it
has this awful blue color, which is even worse because
it's it's it's not even it's like you're hiding the
fact or covering up the fact that it's brutalist. You know,
it's like it's not rack concrete anymore. It is raw
concrete that has been painted the color of an easter egg.
So again, critics consider it one of the worst examples

(15:14):
of Soviet architecture, though it has also been held up
as a solid example of brutalist architecture, and it's it's also,
i should add, it's a little unfair to completely judge
it even based on the older pictures you'll find of it,
because it has never truly been finished. It is technically
an unfinished building. It fulfills no purpose as a building
to this day. Yeah, so um, again, we have to

(15:38):
realize that architecture is business. Architecture does not exist, uh
in a vacuum. Um, it doesn't exist in its own bubble. History, politics,
and culture. Color are perceptions of them in its conception.
The House of the Soviets was perhaps designed to be,
you know, either symbol of modernity or progress progress, but
it might also be viewed as a tombstone symbolising Soviet

(16:01):
or Russian rule over historically German city, that sort of thing.
Or you might look at it and realize that does nothing.
There's nothing going on in there because this was never finished.
This is a testament to an unfinished project. But not
everything considered brutalist is like a monster level of of
of of ugliness, etcetera. One I think, great example that

(16:23):
kind of you know bucks. The stereotype for brutalist architecture
is Montreal's Habitat sixty seven complex, which was designed by
Motion Savty, which you need to look up a picture
this as well, because I can only describe it so well. Uh.
It looks like a long horizontal row of randomly stacked

(16:44):
boxes at different angles. Um, and it it's it's quite
interesting to look at in my opinion, and was actually
designed with some of the problems of high density living
in mind, I think it actually looks kind of interesting.
I mean it, I mean, to me, it's somewhat fulfilled.
Is that, you know, it has some complexity on the
exterior surfaces, it has it has a kind of organic

(17:07):
nature to it. It feels more like a natural environment. Yeah,
it's basically and I'm this is like a very crude
summary of it. I'm sure that the the the architect's
original words about it. We're far Uh, it's far better
expression of it. But it's kind of like, if I
have to live right on top of where someone else
is living, well, can't I live a little west, little
sideways or a little little after the little of the right,

(17:29):
And likewise, does the person above me? Could they maybe
be a little further back, a little to the side.
Maybe there's some room in all of this for a
little courtyards, a little porches. And so it does have
that kind of zigarot feel. It has this kind of
it looks kind of like it was made by by
space age insects. Uh. It turns concrete box living spaces

(17:49):
into something more like a you know, like a like
a bush of thorns, which that doesn't sound very inviting,
but it looks very cool. Actually, yeah, absolutely, um and
I if I'm remembering correctly, I don't think it was
mentioned in the book Future Shock, but I think the
kind of campy television adaptation of Future Shock that was

(18:10):
hosted by Orson Wells, I think they pictured they used
images or footage of habitat sixty seven talking about like
living spaces of the future. Another quick example that sometimes
brought up concerning brutalist architecture from the nineties seventies. Uh,
the it's what Naive nev Brown brutalist department in Rowley Way, London,

(18:33):
which has a kind of terrorist look to it, and
I think looks quite beautiful. It looks it looks kind
of like a stadium turned into apartments, you know. Um
and and I rather like it. But again it's one
of these where it's not that stereotypical idea of brutalist architecture.
But again not everyone likes it either. Now a huge

(18:53):
example of detrimental modern but not brutalist architecture that is
often brought up was the is what was known as
the Pruitt Ego Housing complex in St. Louis, Missouri. This
was built in the nineteen fifties and designed by Minoru
Yamasaki of a World Trade Center fame, and the complex

(19:15):
consists of consisted of thirty three apartment blocks, each eleven
stories high, and uh, you know it, it actually sums
up a lot of the things that Habitat sixty seven
was trying to get away from. Like if you look
at an aerial picture of what this looked like, I
mean it looked like a graveyard for giants. It's just
big slabs of apartment buildings with these big empty spaces

(19:39):
in between. And uh, it's it's just, uh it's it's
just it's tough to look at. As described by Michael
Bond in The Hidden Ways that Architecture Affects How You Feel,
written for BBC Future, the complex quote quickly became notorious
for their crime squalor and social dysfunction. Critics argue that

(19:59):
the i'd open spaces between the blocks of modernist high
rises discouraged a sense of community, particularly as crime rates
started to rise. As as a result, these bleak, prison
like slabs of housing were demolished in nineteen seventy two.
And this is an example that that is often discussed
when people talk about like what's an example of architecture

(20:20):
that has a detrimental effect on the people that have
to live with it, right, that not necessarily may well,
I mean I don't want to describe ill intentions to
the architect, but like that is that is not properly
tuned with the well being of its inhabitants in mind, right, Yeah,
and it's as Yeah, it's also worth pointing at the
architect does not have sole power over like where a

(20:40):
building is constructed or whiant is constructed there. Uh, you know,
certainly getting into critiques of segregation of course, involving aside
like this, but yeah, it also just comes back again
that buildings do not exist in their in their own bubble,
They don't exist in a vacuum, and they can certainly
contribute to or antagonize existing social problems. So these are

(21:01):
just a couple of examples. There are certainly loads of
ugly and or joyless buildings in cities around the world,
and we keep building them. Uh. I mean, if you
look at the current skyline of New York City, you'll
see the full spectrum. You'll see uh, exciting buildings, nostalgic buildings,
modern buildings that are quite interesting to look out modern

(21:21):
buildings that make you a little bit angry to look at,
and plenty of other buildings that you barely see it
all because they're they're just so lukewarm that your mind
cannot even hold them. But again, coming back to something
we talked about in our first episode, um, the importance
of having nearby access to green space with natural vegetation.

(21:42):
Uh there. I mean you kind of can't think about
the architecture of New York City, or certainly think about
the architecture of Manhattan without thinking about Central Park. Central Park.
I mean, there's a reason that almost every photo you
see of Manhattan has something to do. You know. You
either get the skyline down from below or you're looking
at part of Central Park. Yeah, or you get a

(22:03):
shot that has the river in it like that. You
have to have that that natural element. And moving water
is another one that is sometimes factored into these these studies,
like it, can a body of water be seen by say,
patient's recovering in a hospital, et cetera. All right, on
that note, we're going to take our first break, but
when we come back, we will get further into this question.
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dot com slash mind blown Bombas dot Com slash mind blown. Alright,
we're back. So we've been talking about brutalist architecture. Houses
that are in homes and buildings are architectural structures and
creations that some may criticize as being ugly or imposing.

(23:57):
So I would like to imagine imagine that you know,
you you tell go walk in your own neighborhood and
suddenly you see that overnight, like the castle from Kral,
the monster, the House of Soviets, has has emerged in
your neighborhood. Um, and you might wonder, well, is this
this is? This may be ugly, I may not like it.
I may uh have questions about what happened to uh

(24:19):
you know the park that it that was formerly in
that space. But but is it going to actually damage
my health? Is it actually going to have some sort
of tangible effect on my mental well being? And uh?
In looking at this, we've discussed some of our sources
here already. I think I already mentioned Michael Bonds, BBC
Future two thousands seventeen article The Hidden Ways that architecture

(24:41):
affects how you feel. But another source I was looking
at is a piece in The Guardian from sixteen by
Emily Reynolds titled could bad buildings damage Your mental health?
Reynolds points to some basic stats about urban living, and
this came from a twenty ten meta analysis. First of all, UH,
people living in urban environments in large cities percent more

(25:04):
likely to experience an anxiety disorder and thirty nine percent
more likely to experience mood disorders UH. And then Reynolds
also points to a two thousand five study that said
people who grew up in a city where are twice
as likely to develop schizophrenia as those who grew up
in the countryside. Furthermore, a two thousand and eleven Central

(25:25):
Institute of Mental Health at the University of Heidelberg study
pointed to a link between urban living and greater stress
responses in the amygdala and the singulate cortex linked to
emotional regulation, depression, and anxiety. So this could have a
lasting effect on brain development and mental illness suceptibility, she writes.

(25:46):
As Bond points out, this points to the idea that
quote urban living can change brain biology and some people
resulting in reduced gray matter in the right dorso lateral
prefrontal cortex and the paraguinea anterior signulate cortex, two areas
where changes have previously been linked to early life stressful experiences.

(26:08):
Now Reynolds also acknowledges the rather subjective nature of all
of this, such as, you know, drastically conflicting studies on
open office spaces like we discussed in our first episode.
You know, do they promote pro social working or are
they bad for productivity and well being? Depends on which
study you consult. Uh. If you consult me, however, I'll
tell you that that hell is an open space office.

(26:30):
Now it's the way. But I mean, don't you want
to collaborate in hell? Don't don't you really get get
your your Jimmy's uh collaborating with the other imprisoned souls. No,
I mean I take a more of a Dickensian view
of hell. Where the hell is where you experience the
chain that you forged in life. It's not about sharing
your chain with other people. But of course, things like
this or it's often a careful balance, right. You know,

(26:52):
consider co housing, in which private homes are clustered around
shared spaces The idea is that unlike dreary apart and towers,
they can foster a sense of community through shared spaces. Uh.
In some space studies report this, others those say residents
can lose their sense of individuality and privacy. Uh. It
kind of comes into the ore varied demands for a

(27:15):
natural environment. Right, Sometimes we want a place to hide away.
Sometimes we need a place to, uh, you know, delight
in the sun and share with others. And the natural
environment tends to provide us such variety. But once you
you have a like an apartment complex plan in place
like that is the environment. And I think this is
again another area where you have to take into account

(27:38):
the careful balance, uh, you know, among the different types
of personalities out there, the ups and downs of human moods.
You might want to stand in the sun, rejoice in
the sun one day, but then you may need to
hide in the shadows on another. And as just the
ups and downs of life. Sure. Reynolds also quotes Layla McKay,
director of the Center for Urban Design and Mental Health,

(27:58):
whose think tank has tackled complex nature of this problem.
H And you know, try to figure out what are
some what are what are some basic tac comes we
can we can acquire from it, and she says the
following are key uh to having a quality architectural design
UH in a living space. First of all, access to
nature or green spaces. We talked about that a good

(28:19):
bit in the last episode. This is just a no
brainer and just it just ties into to study after
study after study. Also, she stresses public spaces that facilitate
physical activity and encourage social interaction. Oh yeah, this is,
for example, one thing people have talked about in the
history of city design when cars became ubiquitous and cities
suddenly that streets were no longer a place where people

(28:41):
would gather and meet and talk, but instead there were
places that were introversible because they were fast moving vehicles
going back and forth all the time. Yeah. Absolutely, Yeah,
it just needs to be a place where we can
move around and interact with people if we want to. Now,
another thing, she stresses living and working in spaces that
feel safe, which on one hand is obvious. We don't

(29:02):
want to live or work somewhere where we do not
feel safe, But that can apply to a lot of things.
You know, you can certainly apply that to say, a
whole neighborhood layout, but you can also apply to things
like in our own building, the building in which you
and I work. There is our office and then there
is an extremely long, largely featureless hallway that goes to
the elevator bank. It's sort of a John Carpenter hallway.

(29:23):
I often think, when watching people walk down and ahead
of me, that there should be a Carpenter soundtrack, kind
of a doom doom me me, Me, Me me Yeah.
I mean, I'm not saying that the whole way that
hallway makes me personally feel unsafe or in danger, but
it is unnerving and I feel like it. It does
mess with my my perceptions a little bit about potential threats,

(29:47):
you know, like like if someone else is coming down
that hallway and I don't want to interact with them,
I have no choice. I'm just I'm on a train
and I'm gonna walk past them, and it makes me
feel weird. It makes me want to a void that
hallway because on some level I don't feel safe there.
Maybe I feel nine percent safe there, but I would
rather feel safe, if possible, in the building in which

(30:11):
I work. No, I mean, you're what you're saying sort
of connects to what I mean. It feels like a
you know, follow the yellow line and escape from New
York kind of hallway. I'm also reminded a friend of
mine was telling me about this um the Atlanta based
neo futurist architect John Portman, who is generally best remembered
for very large, impressive atriums in hotels, which they that

(30:35):
this was also something that was fairly controversial because you
walk into a big hotel and then someone would look
up and say, look at all this wasted space. This
is not how you build a hotel. Hotel was supposed
to be. Uh, you know, wall to wall rooms, seeing
you get to get the maximum out of the space
and uh, and that's certainly not what you find in
his in his his buildings, these are the sort of

(30:56):
atriums that you'll sometimes find, uh in science fiction films
where they they've clearly filmed it in a in an
enormous atrium in a hotel. I tend to think these
things look really cool. Yeah, I love them as well.
They are very This kind of design is very much
about the interior world, however, and some apparently criticized John
Portman for using like internal halls and the kind of

(31:19):
tunnels to connect buildings to one another rather than using
open areas and exposure to nature even but that does
make me wonder if there was true nature to expose
people too, or if it was a situation where you're
cutting them off from like a dreary street. Yeah. Well,
and one thing I like, you know, in in some
of these big buildings like hotels that have large atriums,

(31:40):
I mean sometimes they will have vegetation within the atrium,
having like trees inside there, which is great. Yeah. Absolutely, Yeah,
There's certainly ways to bring nature into an indoor environment. Um,
and some are very extreme. Like I'm reminded of the
the oprus Land Hotel in Nashville, Tennessee, where they have
that the one that's got the rainforest. Yeah, it's like
island running. It has the big, big Remember I went

(32:03):
there when I was a kid. I loved it. Yeah,
because it's also kind of like going to um really
Wonka's chocolate factory. I think I remember believing it possible
that I could catch a poisoned dart frog the sou
in the In this article by by Reynolds, Reynolds points
to a frequently studied example Barbican estate in London. So

(32:24):
this is a brutalist development of terrorist blocks and towers
built from the nineteen sixties through the eighties, and it's
it's barely frequently criticized for all the normal reasons people
criticize brutalist architecture, but McKay points out that it actually
checks off all the boxes that we mentioned above, you know,

(32:44):
the nature in the green spaces, the public spaces, uh,
living and working in spaces that feel safe, etcetera. Uh.
They do mention, however, that darkness is sometimes a luxury
in in a place like this, which is also interesting
to consider, coming back to that idea that sometimes you
want the shadows, sometimes you don't want the wide open spaces.

(33:04):
And uh and certainly, I mean I I've certainly lived
in places where I feel like there's just way too
much light pollution and it's kind of hard to find
that dark corner in which to actually just sleep at night. Still,
one of the I think the keys here is this.
All of this suggests that a building can be ugly
and still be good for mental health, but the design

(33:25):
is still key. I think likewise, it sounds like it's
very possible to have an outwardly built a beautiful building
that is would be depressing to live within. Oh well,
this goes with something that we were talking about the
Sarah Williams Goldhagen emphasized in her book that we discussed
a little bit in the last episode. It was that, um,
you know, architects often end up thinking most of all

(33:45):
about the overall form of buildings, you know, like the
broad sort of like shape and profile of it. But
that in fact, for people's direct enjoyment of buildings and
you know, the their their emotional reactions to buildings, what
are actually more important are smaller scale things like surfaces
and materials and textures and features. So I think it's

(34:08):
possible you could actually have a building that a lot
of people would look at the overall form of from
the outside and think it's ugly, but it might be
a better place to live in in terms of interior
surfaces and features and that kind of thing. In addition
to the major points we were just talking about with
like access to green space and social interaction spaces and
all that. Yeah, the health advantage of having access to

(34:29):
a scenic environment. Reynolds also points out that neglected environments
contribute to mental ill health, making us feel unsafe and
they may also quote contribute to anxiety and persistent low mood. Uh.
That's from a Centers for Disease Control and Prevention study
by Jackson at All and others have pointed to the
signs of social ills such as graffiti and vandalism as

(34:52):
potentially contributing to this as well. So I think we
have to be careful not to veer directly off into
the like the broken windows the aory of policing in
criminal behavior right. Well, A lot of graffiti is fantastic,
and there are there are great graffiti artists. There are
parts of Atlanta that are known for their graffiti that
uh it, you know, provides a beautiful kind of character

(35:13):
to the place. There have been some fabulous public art
programs that have been aimed at at bringing like large
scale murals to particularly areas with problems as an attempt
to just kind of like beautify things and basically have
the beneficial side of these effects we're talking about work
their way on the inhabitants, and they they're they're generally
been very well received. High rise living Reynolds rights might

(35:37):
seem like a great idea, because of course it can.
It can afford that killer view. Right. You can see
the river, you can see the park, you can see
green spaces in the distance, etcetera. Uh, you know what,
wealthy penthouses deliver this. But then also someone in community
housing would be able to look out of the river
as well in a high rise environment. But the flip

(35:59):
side of this is that locations like this can contribute
to isolation. It's something where more it's an area where
more study is needed. But again it shows that you
can't just have the view of nature. You know, they
are all these other factors as well. Uh. And if
your view of nature is coming from an isolated tower, uh,
it's only going to do so much good, especially if

(36:20):
you're you're you're not having the social interaction, you're not
having any of these other boxes checked off for you
by the design. And of course this leads us to
shopping centers and malls, which we might think of them
as sol draining places, but according to the restorative potential
of shopping malls ten by Rosenbaum at all, uh, many
of these actually have quote mentally restorative qualities because think

(36:43):
about it, they're safe, they're open. Uh. You know, essentially
there are a lot of them are like large, uh
you know, enclosed environments, the sort of classic mall um
which hopefully people are still getting to experience outside of
just viewings of stranger things and shopping mall. I mean,
some actually have greenery in them, vegetation, and there they
may be well maintained. But then the flip side is

(37:05):
that is that they are also places that are highly controlled.
And obviously there are places where uh, retailers are using
all of their tricks to try and control your behavior
influence your behavior as well, and so that can have
ultimately an effect on anxiety and other factors. I also
can't help but imagine, I mean, when you go to
a shopping place, you're going there to engage with decision fatigue,

(37:28):
like whatever your mental state is going in. No matter
how nice the greenery, no matter how cool the architecture is, uh,
no matter how pleasant the music is maybe uh, you're
still going to potentially find yourself in that situation where
like I have no idea what to buy anymore, my
brain is depleted, and the shopping mall almost by definition,

(37:48):
provides a lot of buying options, and having a lot
of buying options often contributes directly to those negative feelings
associated with shopping exactly, So Reynolds, ultimately, you know rights
that with increased awareness of mental health issues and more
work in this design area, quote, buildings and public spaces
are being designed or at the very least critically analyzed,

(38:09):
with mental well being in mind. Now. In Michael Bond's
seventeen piece, it's not maybe that doesn't quite echo as
much optimism for the present, but does seem hopeful about
the future, writing the quote, urban architects have often paid
scantic attention to the potential cognitive effects of their creations
on a city's inhabitants. But he did point out that

(38:30):
there's a h every year. The Conscious Cities Conference takes place.
In seventeen, it took place in London. I read that
in twenty nineteen place in New York City, with a
focus on building resilient communities, healthy child development and parenting,
reshaping later life, and urban design for mental health. If
you want to learn more, you can check them out

(38:50):
at the c c D dot org. That's the Center
for Conscious Design. Yeah. So, Bond points out that that
recent studies have used actually wearable devices such as bracelets
that monitors monitor skin conductivity, a marker of physiological arousal
and smartphone technology just see how we're responding and where

(39:12):
we're responding to architecture. And so this makes sense. You
can strap people up, send them out in the city
and you can see like what's spiking their activity? Yeah, right,
where are people walking when they're getting stressed and stuff
Like do they tend to be walking past this one
horribly ugly featureless building and that's making them more kind
of uh yeah, the the factor and that's that's exactly

(39:35):
what they were looking for. Colin Ellard, who researches the
psychological impact of design at the University of Waterloo in Canada,
is one of the researchers that's using this kind of technology.
And they found that building facades had a huge impact.
And they specifically pointed out a quote dead zone of
quote long smoked glass frontage of a Whole food store

(39:56):
in Lower Manhattan. All Right, so this Whole Foods is
directly ruined people's quality of life's story, not so not solely,
but yeah, so they walk past this storefront with the
frosted glass and like the you are detecting physiological signs
of stress and anxiety and unhappiness. Yeah, and it's not

(40:17):
because it's like crazy weird architecture. It's not brutalist, it's
not it's not covered with graffiti or anything. It's not
like you feel unsafe. It's just it's just there and
it's dreary, and it's it's like what you see everywhere.
It's it's been pointed out as one of the potential
threats of of you know, the loss of you know,
mom and pop stores for sure, but also just places

(40:38):
with individual identity. As street level at any rate, cities
turn more and more into you know, chain chain restaurant here,
and here's the big box store here. And there's the
sameness to everything and the lack of variety. Uh, you know,
it takes us out of the sort of variety that
we would need in the natural world and would also
historically find in a more vibrant city environment. Certainly, Like

(41:02):
that's what you think of when you think of of
walking the streets of New York, right right, that's the cliche.
Not seeing a block of of storefront for you know,
whatever your big box store happens to be. No, you
you're expecting to see weird thing here, weird thing here,
strange little store here, Uh, something up and coming over here.
You know, it's we want that kind of experience. We

(41:23):
want the same sort of height through the wilderness experience
even in our urban environments. Of course, again we're living
in a time though where you know, there's more and
more consciousness about mental health though, and we have decades
now of of studies about the impact of design and
things we can do to to to help to have
like a you know, an actual benefit on our mental

(41:44):
well being. For instance, when it comes to social interaction
human interaction. UH. Sociologist William White was a key advocate
in the nineteen seventies of design that pushed people closer
together and encourage social interaction, and one of his colleague,
Expond Rights, founded the Project for Public Spaces, which made
key moves such as deploying benches to make certain public

(42:07):
spaces more inviting to the public. Put some benches there,
make it seem like people are supposed to be here,
and then by being here, they will interact with one
another UH in various ways. And another important aspect of
city design, brought up by Kate Jeffrey, a behavioral neuroscience
scientists at the University College London, is that more. The

(42:28):
more lost you feel in a city, the more out
of sync, isolated and potentially afraid you feel. And this
is also important inside of a building. So when you
walk into the building, do you feel lost? Do you
feel like you're in a maze, Because that's not good,
because the interior of space should be more like a labyrinth,
the place that is maybe complex, that is interesting to

(42:51):
behold and experience, but there is not a sense of
anxiety about where you are going. When you enter a
true labyrinth, you will always go to the sin for
the labyrinth and back out again. You will always go
exactly where you need to go. A maze is the
edifice in which you become lost and possibly consumed by
a minotaur. I don't think I was aware of that distinction.

(43:12):
I've just used them. So they're often used interchangeably, even
by the the best of writers, So I don't. I
try not to get a bit out of shape when
I'm reading something and they say maze when they need labyrinth, etcetera.
It's not as elegant to say pans maze, pants maze.
It's not as good. Labyrinth feels more appropriate. All Right,
we're gonna take one more break. But when we come back,

(43:33):
we're going to explore the world of hostile architecture. Than alright,
we're back now, Joe, you're the one who turned me
onto this idea of hostile architecture. I was, I was
blissfully unaware of this. Well, it's not something I ever
had a deep knowledge about. It's just something i'd I'd
seen in a few places, and I, you know, I

(43:53):
was just reading a little bit about it online. The
idea that sometimes architectural signs that you would use us, say,
defending a fortress against an invading army, can be turned
inward and can be used within a society itself, even
within the city itself, in ways that are both interesting

(44:14):
and sad. Right, yeah, using these features against residents of
the city itself, especially the homeless. So one of the
older examples of this sort of thing, uh is probably
the flint cone. A number of you've seen this. I'm
going to describe it, and a lot of you will go, Okay,
I know what you're talking about. This is just deployed
in the nineteenth century in Norwich, England, along with other

(44:37):
designs to curb public urination in the city because basically,
men walking about through the city would need to urinate,
and having few options, they would turn to you know,
a handy, dimly lit corner in the exterior of a
stone building, and that's where they would peet. But such
urination course creates an odor and it even damages materials.

(44:57):
So building oders employed a few different strategies. Again it's
public urination, such as gates around such little corners and
nooks and crannies, or even more drastically filling those corners
in with brick and mortar, sometimes in the shape of
a cone. Right, So where you would have a recess
that would normally just be a little corner where you
could face into the corner and no one would see

(45:18):
what you were doing with the front of your body. Instead,
there's a you know, human height shaped cone of bricks
and stuff. Right, that's gonna guess cause your urine to
flow back towards your feet, right, But also just doesn't
give you any privacy, Whereas normally this corner would have
allowed privacy. Now there is no way to be private there. Right.
Of course, you might not have much of an issue

(45:39):
with this, right, you're probably not a huge fan of
public urination. But here's the thing. It does not address
the route problem. There are people in the city with
nowhere to pee. Public toilets were not readily available. Transforming
these corners didn't actually solve the problem. It just redirected
it to other places, like other other corners that didn't

(45:59):
have cones implanted in them, and and it, you know,
ultimately made life even more miserable for the Norwich wanderers
who had full bladders. Now, the city eventually made public
restrooms more available, but many of these structures still remain,
especially the cones, because they are rather permanent in their construction.
Sure now, lack of a place to leave oneself can

(46:22):
still be a problem for the urban homeless today, though
this is a problem that is addressed to a large
extent by public restrooms, which are deployed with varying degrees
of success depending on which city you're looking at and
where you are in that city. But like just yesterday,
I was outside our own city zoo and in an
individual walked up and asked me where the nearest bathroom was,

(46:44):
And naturally there's one inside the zoo, but that requires
a membership or a ticket to get into, And I
said there was one at the instrants to an adjacent park,
but I wasn't sure if renovations were affecting it. And
then he said that he tried that one and he
couldn't get into it. And then my only suggestion was
said to tell him, well, there's a coffee shop across
the street. And of course a coffee shop is the
sort of place where one usually encounters a customers only

(47:06):
policy for restrooms, and in some areas you even have
to have a key or the receipt code off of
receipt to get in there. So the problem still remains.
The homeless also need a place to sit and to sleep,
a situation addressed to some extent by shelters and other initiatives.
But what about these public spaces, these green spaces we've
been discussing that have such a benefit for all of us,

(47:27):
Like these these places have an important impact on our
mental wellness and UH and certainly access is even more
vital for individuals on the margins who may also very
well be struggling with depression, anxiety, and or mental illness.
But unfortunately there's often an effort then to prevent the
homeless from using such areas, and to be fair of

(47:47):
a public spaces is overrun by homeless individuals that you know,
I guess it can certainly become less desirable for some
members of society. Uh And but the result is we
see other examples of what critics have dubbed host aisle
architecture also known as defensive design in our modern cities.
And here are just a few examples. First of all,

(48:08):
park benches with arm rests down the middle right, so
they the goal there is to make a bench that
you can sit on, but you can't really lay down on.
Another one, spikes or bolts installed on stairs or on
areas of the pavement itself. This is something I've only
seen photos of. I don't think I've seen this in
in real life, but yeah, just the idea of like, well,

(48:31):
here's a place where one could lay here's some stairs
someone could potentially lay on, but we're gonna put spikes
there instead, which which is a drastic solution. Another one
gates around various fountains, specifically around the the the edge
of the lift of the fountain where one might normally
set uh. The placement of boulders or other objects such

(48:53):
as bike racks or other structures in place of benches
or in spots there were previously popular gathering places for
the homeless. Or here's another one, sprinklers that at least
allegedly been placed to deter squatters, like in parks. Yeah
so some of them. And then as far as benches go,
we mentioned the bench with an arm or us down
the middle. But some of the designs that have been

(49:15):
utilized are really quite elaborate and you might not even
recognize their true purpose at first glance, as with the
South Philadelphia Transit authorities, modern chrome ribbed like benches that
that look cool. They look they look like I said,
like this weird space curvy rib thing. But as I
read in What's behind the Uptick and Hostile Architecture by

(49:37):
Elizabeth Wallace published an architectural digest, the intention here is
to create benches that are difficult to sleep on. Ye
they're not flat, They've got these ridges in them that
will sort of cut into you if you try to
lay down. Yeah. So it's probably a worthwhile exercise, especially
for anyone out there who uses like public transportation and
visits urban public spaces. Like the next time you see

(49:58):
a weird bench or even abut a full bench, ask yourself,
could Could I sleep on this? Could I lay down
and sleep on this? Could I even set up and
sleep on this? And then what does that say? Um?
Another example, London's concrete Camden benches have often been criticized
for this. Uh and you can there just again this
kind of like weird bench design that is like you

(50:21):
look at it and you ask yourself, could I lay
on that? And the answer is not not comfortably at all.
And you also see variations of this sort of design
when it comes to anti skateboarding uh features as well
that have been retro fritti fitted on things I've noticed
the others I've never noticed anti skateboarding stuff. Yeah, I
wonder what that's like. Um. Basically, it's like like little

(50:42):
like metal ridges, metal bars, things that are added to
and I don't have any skateboarding um lingo in my brain.
I'm sorry, but the thing just call everything ali the okay,
the thing where they ali along the side of the
like the yeah or the bench or the concrete by
the fountain. Put a metal are somewhere there to disrupt
such activity, you can't ali. Yeah. Uh. So obviously, hostile

(51:06):
architecture has angered quite a lot of people, inspiring social
media campaigns and even sticker and graffiti efforts against the
features because these effects are by their very nature, uh,
not only anti homeless, but just anti human. As critics
point out, you know what about older members of society,
homeless or not, who simply might need to sit down
more often? What if they, they or anyone else you know,

(51:29):
has a health episode you need to lay down, But oh,
you can't lay there because there's spikes coming out of
the concrete for no reason. Like you're like you live
in a Mortal Kombat game. Yeah, there's a really depressing
lack of compassion evident in those though at the same time,
I mean, to be fair to I guess the people
who would install things like that. I mean, like, the
problem is that there, you know, there are people without

(51:51):
a place of their own to to lie down or
to sleep or something like that. And like the one
owner of a building or something can't individually all of
the problem, right, give every one a place to live, uh,
And so like they're just forced to individually deal with
their own problem, which is that people keep laying across
the doorstep of my building. But it's sad to see

(52:12):
that problem dealt with by just like trying to make
things even harder for the people who end up sleeping there. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
certainly to your point that the individual store owner is
not going to solve the wicked problem of homelessness. We
call it a wicked problem because it's something with a
number of different factors involved, and it's very difficult to
address and to solve. It's the kind of effort that

(52:33):
people devote their lives to trying to deal with. Oh,
but I mean, I think there there are clearly things
you can do to reduce homelessness. I think I think
the evidence is there, certainly. But but in terms of
the individual store owner, they can't. They can't do it themselves.
But you know, ultimately that the issue is, you know,
benches that you can actually sleep on are not going
to fix anything. But but neither does the presence of

(52:55):
hostile architecture, even though it may allow some people to
better ignore the underlying problems in society. And and that's
the thing, like it's about making Ultimately, it makes the
problem less visible two segments of the population and without
actually solving the actual problem. Yeah, it wouldn't make any
sense to to blame the the homelessness problem to begin

(53:16):
with on the individual store owner or homeowner or whatever
that's putting these measures in place. But I mean it
does seem like, I don't know, this is the kind
of thing where you really need collective action, the action
through large nonprofits or through the government to try to
intervene to solve homelessness more systemically and like actually connect
people with places to live, rather than than trying to

(53:39):
come up with ways to make the problem less visible. Right. Yeah,
Ultimately I would I would say that metal spikes are
never the perfect answer to any given problem. So we
we bring all this up not to not to end
this two part or on a really negative note, but
ultimately again to think about the power of architectural design

(54:00):
and the power of architectural objects in our environments. Well, yeah,
and to emphasize again one of the many ways I mean,
this is what we've been exploring throughout these episodes is
that um is that the designs of cities, and the
designs of buildings, and the designs of public spaces are
not necessarily neutral neutral, not necessarily in a moral sense,

(54:20):
and not necessarily in uh in a public health sense.
They're not just a matter of aesthetic preferences. The design
of buildings in public spaces in many ways have public
health outcomes, they have cultural outcomes, and they have moral implications. Yeah. Absolutely,
And we live in these environments. So if it is
an environment where there are spikes on the stairs, I

(54:42):
mean imagine like growing up seeing that every day and
that being is part of your world and you have
to like and asking like why are there spikes on
the stairs, mom, And they're like, oh, that's so people
don't set on the stairs. That is a weird message
to drive home. So hopefully these episodes we've explored, you know,
the various ways that that's certainly design can make an

(55:03):
environment and artificial environment uh more imposing and more negative,
but also the ways that they can make make it
more positive and ultimately more in line with the natural
world that we evolve to thrive in. Totally. My my
take is less spikes, more trees. Yes, less spikes, more trees.
Big atriums are great, um as long as they don't

(55:23):
have spikes all over. I don't know, it's some atrium
type type spikes can be cool, like like, especially if
they're like spikes within the vegetation. I want to go
back to Mortal Kombat and there was that one stage
in the second game where they had the spikes on
the ceiling and you would punch someone up into the spikes.
But that's a much better design because if someone can
still lay on the floor, it's fine, You're not. No

(55:45):
one's gonna trip over something and fall on the spikes.
Much better design. Let's let's do a finishing move on
this episode. Yes, we're gonna have to call it here obviously.
You know, there's so much we could have talked about additionally,
concerning architecture and the different style us of architecture, the
way different things impact our mind from you know, you know,
sharp angles to spirals, uh and so forth, but we

(56:09):
only have so much time. In the meantime, we'd love
to hear though from it. Certainly any architects out there
that happened to be listening to the show, or people
who have experience with any of the architectural styles, features,
or specific sites that we've mentioned on these episodes. We
we invite listener feedback all the time right in. We'd
love to hear from you. In the meantime. If you

(56:31):
want more stuff to blow your mind, head on over
to Stuff to Blow your mind Dot com that's the
mother ship. That's where you'll find the episodes. You'll also
find us anywhere you get your podcasts and wherever that
happens to be. Leave us some starts, leave us a
nice review that really helps us out. Huge thanks as
always to our excellent audio producer Seth Nicholas Johnson. If
you'd like to get in touch with us for any
of the reasons we talked about in this past couple

(56:52):
of episodes, just to say hi, or to suggest a
topic for the future, you can email us at contact
that's Stuff to Blow your Mind dot com. Stuff to
Blow Your Mind is a production of iHeart Radio's How
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(57:15):
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