February 26, 2020 • 54 mins
Holly was joined in the studio by historian Dr. Calinda Lee to talk about her work with the Atlanta History Center, and specifically the new exhibit "Black Citizenship in the Age of Jim Crow."
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class, a production
of I Heart Radios How Stuff Works. Hello, and welcome
to the podcast. I'm Holly Frying and I'm Tracy B.
Wilson and I recently had the absolute pleasure and delight
of sitting down with Dr Kalinda Lee from the Atlanta
(00:22):
History Center to talk about all things history and what
keeps her passionate and how she got drawn into history
as a career. This interview also covers some of the
details of the History centers temporary exhibit Black Citizenship in
the Age of Jim Crow, and that's a topic that
Kalinda is really passionate about. So enjoy. As we said
(00:45):
in the introduction, I am here today with Dr Kalinda Lee,
who is the Atlanta History Center Vice President of Historical
Interpretation and Community Partnerships. Did I get that title correct?
You got it correct. It's a mouthful, it is. I
always worry because any time time somebody comes in with
a title that's like multi leveled like that, I'm nine
times out of ten, I'm gonna mess it up. But
(01:05):
my copy paste did me. Well. Uh, First of all,
I would love to hear your story and how you
became a historian, and what drove you to that field
and what keeps you going in that field. Sure, it's
a funny story, I think. So. Uh, my mom and
my stepfather are academics, so I'm going to go to
the way back machine for you. Perfect. So I remember
(01:27):
being about sixteen and saying to them, I will never
get a PhD. I will never be a humanity scholar
because I'm gonna do something important with my life. That's
what I said to my parents. We can, we could
give you a pass for that. So I went off
to college biology premd. But my senior year in high school, um,
(01:53):
I had been given you. You get these school wide
awards for like the best student in Dada da Da. Well,
I got the social science to ward despite myself. And
then I went off to college and I was in
this honors program that required that we take certain courses.
So I had to take these history courses, and I
had to take these philosophy courses, and again the grudgingly
(02:15):
I was loving them. So I started taking more, and
then I started taking more and I looked up sometime
toward probably the end of my sophomore year and realized
that I was I was on a track to be
a major in both of those subjects. Actually, so I
you know, I had a kind of major heart to
(02:36):
heart with my mom and my stepdad about it, who
were all going home, and then I had a talk
with my father about it, and I'm not I'm not
going to quote exactly what he said, but he said
something like, what are you gonna do with that? Esoteric
bs and um, And so I said, well, you know,
(02:56):
I'll go to law school. He was a lawyer. He
ate that up, and I left college applying to both
PhD and law programs and actually accepted admission in a
dual degree program that I had devised, which was going
to be like a pH d a n y U
and a law degree at Yale. And two years after
I deferred my entrance to Yale Law, the dean of
(03:19):
Yale Law School called me and he said, young lady,
you're holding somebody's seat. What are you gonna do? And
I had, you know, just this like flash moment, and
I said, I'm not coming. And so that set me
off on a path to figure out what I was
going to do with this history degree. I ended up
in a kind of really circuitous way recognizing that what
(03:41):
was really setting my heart on fire as I lived
and worked in schooled in New York was this kind
of public humanities thing. I didn't necessarily want to be
in a classroom. I wanted to maybe do documentary filmmaking
or museums or like. It was that stuff that got
me excited, the connections between the past in the present,
the so wet stuff that got me excited, and the
(04:03):
seeing people kind of come alive and be excited about
making those connections. And so it was a fairly long,
circuitous route. I won't take you through all of it,
but I will say I worked for a nonprofit arts organization.
I managed um a Contemporary, a nonprofit contemporary art museum.
I've worked in a few museums. I actually at one
(04:25):
point second guest myself and thought like this is a
kind of rough road, and did accept a professorship position.
I was a professor of history at UM Loyola University
of Chicago. But I just kept coming back to this
need to do programming and kind of what we call
public history. So I went back. I got a PhD
(04:45):
in American Studies from Emory University, and I've I've been
keeping it moving in the public humanities for a good
little while now, gosh almost, it's been twenty years almost
since I earned my doctorate, so it's been a minute.
You're such a busy bee, You're like a super striver.
I have a theory that probably part of why you
are so good at making those connections is because your
(05:06):
background is from a disparate assortment of study, which gives
you a broader sense of the world. I think if
you've already studied medicine and biology and then considered law,
and then looking at other parts of the humanities history,
you see the vast expanse of history instead of the
way people tend to think of it, which is edicts
(05:27):
from thrones and in seats of government, and there's so
much more going on, which I love. Yeah, I think
that's really true. And I think that the other thing
that's really true for me, is cliche as it might sound,
is I'm really clear that this work is on purpose
for me. And if there's anything I suggest to anybody,
(05:48):
let's figure out what that work is. It's on purpose
for you. Sometimes people talk about it in terms of
your passion, but I'll tell you, every single day, I
don't wake up feeling passionate about what's on my task.
But I do know that it's on purpose for me,
and that means that there's there's something I can bring
to this. There's some energy, some sparks, some inspiration, some
(06:08):
knowledge that is unique to me. Then nobody else can
kind of bring to this and so um that matters
to me tremendously, And it matters to me that people
connect with their own passions about history, because the truth is,
people actually love history. People are always talking history. They
didn't like history class, but they love history. They want
(06:31):
to know what came before them. They want to say,
like Grandma, tell me why. They want to know about
great so and so and so. They want to make
connections in that way. They want to figure out how
to learn the lessons of the path, from the lessons
of the past to kind of plan for brighter future
because people want those tools, but they don't want to
know exactly what year so and so crossed the bridge
(06:53):
or you know, that's what they're not as interested in.
And even as a history professor, I used to tell
my students all the time, I don't care about that.
I really don't. If you understand generally what happened and why,
the factors that have been motivating people over time, the
interactions between people. You'll put it together in your head
(07:15):
like you'll be able to sequence it. You'll you'll be
able to make sense of it. Um. And that's what
I'm really interested in. I love you. Uh. We always
say that the memorization of names and dates is what
kills kids interest in history very early on, because history
is full of a lot of great, weird stuff. But
when that's kind of what you're getting fed to regurgitate,
(07:36):
it robs it of all of its beauty. I think
I read a tweet that someone wrote after seeing you
speak in which they quoted you saying to do good history,
you have to do all the history. And I love
that quote. Will you talk a little bit about what
that means? Sure? So one thing I would say is
history is most society is great form of propaganda, right
(08:02):
because the history isn't what happened in the past. History
is ascribing meaning to what happened in the past. That's
what history is. That's what it means to do history.
And so if you look at national projects as far
back as we can imagine, like you know, we can
look at ancient Egyptians and Mesopotamians and like when we
see what their governments were up to. A lot of
(08:23):
it was about creating a narrative and then getting people
to kind of align with that. And what that means
is that you're always doing the selective work, you're always editing.
What I am really passionate about is doing all of it.
Let's remove ourselves from this this process of trying to
edit folks out, trying to edit dissension out, trying to
(08:46):
edit conflict out, trying to edit the messy bits that
don't fit into that narrative out, the messy bits that
don't fit into the meta narrative. That's the interesting stuff.
That's the stuff um that well. One, it's interesting because
nobody taught it to you. And too, it's interesting because
it aligns with what we already know about life, which
is that we don't just get in line and think
(09:08):
about it all the same way and do it all
the same way. And while the victors may write the history,
their stories are not all of the stories. So I
am about the business of doing it all. So in
my real of the Atlanta History Center, what that means
is it's not just about the politicians and the business leaders,
(09:28):
and you know, thinking about who made history in that way,
it's about the ordinary people who every day make the
decisions in their communities and in their in their churches
and in their families, who really make history. And the
example that I always give people when they ask me
about that, as I say, people always talk about Atlanta
an entrepreneurship, right, and this kind of new self rising narrative,
(09:52):
And they say, you know, it was about business and
the creation of manufacturing down here after the Civil War
that really distinguished Atlanta from other Southern cities and ultimately
helped to make it this bigger southern city, maybe even
the capital of the New South. And they talk about
the business leaders who pushed that forward. And I say, well,
(10:13):
let's talk about the child laborers, whose efforts are entirely unsung.
But if it wasn't for them in those textile meals,
if it wasn't for them taking care of other people's
babies when they were yet babies themselves, then we wouldn't
have had any of that. So let's look at their stories,
even if we don't know their names. I love it.
(10:36):
Um This ties nicely into my next question because I
want to talk to you about the exhibit that just
opened a couple of weeks ago, Black Citizenship in the
Age of Jim Crow. And I love it because it
busts a lot of myths, um and it tells the
whole story, which I really love. Will you talk a
little bit about the genesis of that exhibit coming to Atlanta? Sure? So.
(10:57):
Black Citizenship in the Age of Jim Crow was curated
by New York Historical Society, and they curated it from
the beginning with the intention that it be a traveling exhibition.
Was done in collaboration UM with the Guilt Guilder Layman
Institute and with the National Museum of African American History, UM,
(11:18):
the Smithsonian Institution, and what they were attempting to do
was at least twofold. One thing was to say, like,
let's look at this period of history beginning in reconstruction
that often gets short shrift. Right we go like right
from in African American history, will go from Civil War
(11:39):
to civil rights. UM. In Southern history, as it's kind
of generally understood, there's this crazy meta narrative that talks
about the Civil War and then this period of like
failure and reconstruction and then we're into World wars um,
and so they want to really look at They wanted
(12:00):
to really look at that period of African American engagement
and agency and struggle for full citizenship, that that are
those kind of forgotten years. So that was one thing.
The other thing that they wanted to do, because they're
in New York, was to say, this whole gem Crow
story is not just the Southern story, It's a national story, um.
And what are the implications of that. Let's look at
(12:21):
for them our own history and really understand the ways
that not only that that happened back then, but what
it means to us now, what the legacy is, um.
And so we were compelled by that. We went to
visit in New York. We were really compelled by what
we saw, but we wanted to change it some We
wanted to augment it some. One thing that I was
(12:44):
really concerned about as an historian is that Atlanta figures
really prominently in that story, and Atlanta does not talk
about that era of history. We often talk about the
Civil War. We love to naval gays about the Civil War.
(13:04):
Right and then and then we just apparently sat down
and waited for Martin Luther King to be born, and
so that's not the way it went, and we need
to really dig into that. And we have some singular
aspects of our local and regional history that really contribute
to that story and and our huge MythBusters about how
(13:29):
UM politically, socially, economically active African Americans have been in
trying to achieve equity throughout their history, and so UM,
fortunately and New York was amenable to a pretty major
UM augmentation amplification of that traveling exhibition, and we set
(13:53):
about the work of doing that here in partnership with
two major institutions, the Atlanta University Center Library and UM
Spellman College. And hopefully we'll get a chance to talk
about why them and who else helped. You mentioned that
(14:13):
you added additional context to this exhibit by including a
number of Atlanta specific elements both throughout it, and then
there's a beautiful room full of art at the end
that I was just blown away by. UM. Will you
talk about those additions, how you chose what you were
going to add, Maybe that big regimental flag that UM
kind of had me near tears. UM, there are a
(14:35):
lot of really amazing pieces in that show. Yeah, UM,
I would love to talk about the things that we
added in Atlanta, UM as we think about black citizenship
in the quest for full equity. So let's begin at
the beginning with the United States Colored Troops regimental flag.
That flag was painted by, first of all, artist of
(14:58):
quite some note, even Bustle Bowser. UM. Try to say
that fast five times always. It's a tongue twister. So
it's a beautiful artifact in and of itself. Right, It's
a hand painted, wonderful flag that UM has the motto
in it, let us prove ourselves men. The motto is
let us prove ourselves men, and it says everything, UM
(15:22):
about what African American men who joined the fight to
make sure that the Union won the Civil War? Uh,
we're thinking of and so two hundred and sixty five
thousand black men officially joined this struggle. Pause for a
moment and think about that. That narrative has been written
(15:46):
again and again as if African Americans were emancipated but
did nothing to affect their own emancipation. So that's number
one agency in really turning the tide in the war.
And think about also what it means for people who
had been enslaved, and even those who were free to
(16:07):
have been at best second class citizens wherever they might
have lived in this country. To dedicate themselves to the
cause of keeping the Union intact, proving their patriotism, their manhood,
their humanity, um and earning, as it were, uh their
(16:28):
right to American citizenship. It completely subverts this narrative of
people trying to suggest that anything was given them. So
that's the first thing. And then, you know, it also
makes us rethink what reconstruction then meant, because as soon
(16:48):
as the war was one by the North, one of
the things that was required was that African Americans be
um emancipated and afforded citizenship rights. And that meant for
black men that they gained the right to vote. And
not only did they gain the right to vote, but
they gained the right to represent themselves in elected office.
(17:08):
So by eighteen sixty eight there was one national representative
and three state representatives in the state House who were
African Americans, and a number of other African American elected
officials throughout the state. There's some really substantial things to
think about in terms of this. Two of the people
(17:28):
who were UM state legislators had been enslaved. Imagine that
these are people who weren't even allowed to read and
write right and who had learned to do these things
in any case, and we're about the business of representing
the state. One of them, in particular, Tunas Campbell. We
do UM a museum theater piece in the exhibition about
(17:49):
so if you come on the weekends, you'll get to
meet the past through Tunis Campbell. And one of the
things that Tunas talks about in that experience is how
he on his elected seat on UM the basis of
a campaign that advocated for universal schooling, which had not
(18:10):
been available for whites or black So universal primary and
secondary education, land redistribution not only for African Americans who
had toiled for generations without any compensation, but also for
white Yellomen farmers, and a more equitable distribution of wealth
(18:32):
and political power throughout the state. Imagine that this is
eighteen sixty eight, and there's no way that he or
Aaron Bradley or Henry McNeil Turner, the other two who served,
were elected without the support of both African Americans and whites.
So there was a moment, there was a very interesting
moment in eighteen sixty eight, nine, eighteen sixty eight, when
(18:55):
these people were putting forth really progressive ideas and were
voted into your office. And even though they were pushed out, Um,
even though there was an incredible backlash, UM, even though
it began right then began this rise of vitriolic white supremacy,
violent white supremacy, the rise of the KKK, and then
(19:16):
it's rebirth of nineteen fifteen at Stone Mountain. Um right
here in Georgia. Even though all of those things were happening,
these people and their progeny persisted in this fight to
be included. They kept going back to vote again. When
the three representatives from Georgia were ousted physically ousted from
the state House, they went to the president and they said,
(19:40):
you made a promise, we have a constitution, we need
to be reinstated. And they were reinstated, at least for
a period of time before Jim Crow laws really made
it impossible for them to assume those seats. Tunas Campbell
fought and fought and fought and fought to such an
extent that he was threatened with process acution. They were
(20:00):
gonna charge him with malfeasance in office, and they said,
but if you leave, if you abandon this, if you
go away, then we will leave you alone. We won't
pursue you. And he he stayed, and he fought the fight,
and he was imprisoned and sentenced to hard labor. So
it's essentially re enslaved. And then and then he left.
And when he was finally free from that, he left
(20:23):
and wrote a book called of My Sufferings in the
State of Georgia. UM. But you know, these people are
not just individuals who are interesting to know. They represent,
if you forget all of their names, they represent an
effort to represent themselves to access this basic kind of
American dream of autonomy and equity. UM. And they were
(20:46):
courageous in the face of some obstacles that I'm not
quite sure I would be willing to be so courageous
in the face of. And then you mentioned the art,
so UM. There are two other things that I want
to mention about the exhibition, UM. And what we added.
One thing is that we focused on uh, one thing
that was singular in Atlanta, and that is one of
(21:10):
the ways that African Americans fought, if you will, for citizenship,
for equity, was to educate themselves. Uh. It was clear
right that the powers that be had understood how dangerous
education could be because it was forbidden. And so they
formed schools UM in order to not only learn to
(21:32):
read and write, but affect you know, the promise of
of of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness for everyone.
And in Atlanta they founded the Atlanta University Center. Ultimately
five distinct schools that ultimately in nine came together under
that consortium. It is the largest institution of learning that
(21:55):
is the center all of the schools together for African
Americans in the country to this day. UM. And those
schools were founded immediately in the wake of emancipation. Imagine
what it means. Atlanta didn't even have a public high
school for African Americans until nineteen twenty four. And in
eighteen sixties, seven, eighteen sixty eight, you know, eighteen eighty one,
(22:17):
you're forming institutions of higher learning. That was incredible, and
people were coming out of those institutions who changed the
course of life in this place. They settled here in Atlanta,
many of them. UM. They agitated for rights here. They
built other schools, they formed businesses, they ran for political office,
(22:38):
even though they weren't allowed to do so. So all
these wonderful things were happening. And one of the key
things that happened, UM was that um w E. B.
Du Bois, who was a professor at Atlanta University, ultimately
went on to be the major founder of the National
Association for the Advancement of Colored People end up cp
So Atlanta was really a crisciple of African American action
(23:03):
and and struggle, UM and and brilliance, an agency in
achieving full humanity, human rights even more than civil rights.
And it completely belies its notion that African Americans, and
especially African Americans in the South were complacent in the
(23:24):
face of their subjugation. They were not. There's one of
the my favorite pieces is that beautiful portrait that's blown
up of all of the educators together with the talker
next to it, that is each one. It was so
moving asign from the fact that just like those dresses
are gorgeous, um, but it really is like you realize,
(23:46):
at a time when we don't think of necessary, I mean,
I can't imagine one in the ideal circumstances creating what
became such an incredibly rich educational history. But then to
think about the fact that this was not the best
of circumstances and they were fighting tooth and nail every way.
It's like, if that doesn't inspire people, I don't know
(24:06):
what will. Um. I get choked up just talking about
it because I love it so much. Um, We've been
talking about all of these things that are really separate
from the narrative we often get, which leaves out this
period of black agency in Atlanta but also was going
on in other places. Why do you think that's been
so downplayed over the years. One of the ways that
(24:30):
the repression of African Americans, but I would say, like,
you know, one of the ways that the repression of
anybody is legitimated is to suggest that they didn't want
anything better for themselves, that they weren't struggling for anything
better for themselves, um, that they weren't capable of anything
better for themselves. And that narrative, unfortunately, is really still
(24:51):
with us. Right. So you make people responsible for their
own marginalization in one way or another, and that narrative
kind of lets that's a bigger society off the hook,
but it also lets all of us as individuals off
the hook. Right, like I don't have to think about
that on my way to get groceries or right, I
(25:13):
don't have to do this work for other people because,
for goodness sake, they're happy, and you know, they're not
even doing that work for themselves. So I think it
serves a really important purpose um consciously and sometimes even
subconsciously UM to suggest that folks weren't always seeking freedom
and equity. But we know better that narrative, certainly in
(25:34):
African American history, extends for as long as there's been
such a thing as African Americans, um, which is to say,
you know, when people were captured in Africa, they weren't
African Americans, they were Africans, um, who were enslaved. So
slaves weren't brought from Africa. African people were brought to
(25:54):
America and enslaved. And from the moment of that capture,
we have all of these examples of how people human
beings have a will to freedom, have a will to
to autonomy, have a will to self expression, and people
have been engaging in and fighting for the rights for
(26:15):
that to be seen and understood and respected forever. Um.
So there were not there was not a reality to
happy slaves. There was not a reality to Jim Crow,
just meaning that you were separate over here and I
was separate over there. In fact, very much was about
legitimating how some people are lesser than other people and
(26:38):
what that means in terms of their access. One of
the things I love about the Traveling Exhibition UM, the
part that was curated in New York, that you can
see UM in Atlanta and elsewhere when it moves on,
is how they really do a great job in talking
about Jim Crow and the way that Jim Crow is
not just separate but equal. Jim Crow is about very
(27:01):
specifically saying African Americans are not suited for equity. If
you allow African Americans to fully participate in this democracy,
they will destroy it. Right. So, Jim Crow, this caricature,
and Zip Coon his cousin are are the people who
are responsible for for crime. And they are the people
(27:25):
who are responsible for poor governance, and they are the
people who are responsible for our general lack of safety.
They are the people who would be responsible for the
fall of European civilization as we we know it. If
you pause for a moment and think about that, then
you would understand that even though separate but Equal is
no longer with us, the ideologies of Jim Crow are
(27:47):
very much still alive. Um. So, so there there's lots
there I think to unpack. And the other thing I
would say with regard to your question is that there
are so many ways to resist. Everybody is not a marcher,
everybody's not running for office. Some people paint, some people
(28:08):
write poetry. Um, you know. Some people each one teach one.
Some people become teachers and help people develop the critical
thinking skills to make decisions for themselves. There are lots
and lots and lots of ways to resist, and there
are lots and lots of ways to express yourself. Because
(28:31):
I think sometimes when we talk about resistance, then we
place everybody in this context of reacting to something, and
just being fully human doesn't have to be a reaction
to people who think you're not fully human. Just being
fully human is just all of our drive to be
you know, fully ourselves, and so African Americans never, not
(28:56):
at any point in their history, stopped trying to do that.
One of the things I love about this exhibit is
that there is um a way in which it breaks
down concepts for people in very simple ways that are
easy to digest. There's a great segment on it where
it talks about voter suppression, and it's kind of a simple,
but very illustrative kind of board of interactive flip sections.
(29:20):
Will you talk a little bit about sort of balancing
those kind of interactive things with your more I won't
even say standard because it's that doesn't really encapsulate what
it is, but sort of what people would expect of
more static imagery with with text commentary attached, and how
you balance all of those out to make one big
cohesive idea in an exhibition. So one thing we're really
(29:46):
proud of at the Atlanta History Center is how we
like to take big, sometimes hard, daunting topics and make
them accessible for visitors of any age, of any educational level,
of any background. As a professor, I learned that talking
(30:08):
at people never ever works in terms of retaining any
kind of meaningful knowledge, right. It's about kind of planting
enough seeds so that people come to discoveries themselves. Those
discoveries stay with them forever, and so in our exhibitions,
one of the things that we want to always try
(30:29):
to do is create ways for people to discover for
themselves and make connections about ideas that feel relevant to them.
UM to have their say and sometimes to leave their
say behind so that other people can learn from the
people who came before them. And so that was a
big part of what we added to this exhibition. We
loved the content um that we saw when we went
(30:52):
to visit in New York, but we were concerned that
it was a lot of kind of talking in one direction. Right,
So we've got wonderful panels and labels and all, and
they're just talking at you. But you need a moment
to think about, to digest, to respond to all of
this content and make connections for yourself. So, for example,
(31:15):
in one section where we're thinking about the ways and
talking about displaying the ways that UM Jim Crow functioned,
and one of the things that Jim Crow did was
to constantly assert that African Americans are not capable of
self governance, let alone governance of anyone else. We have
this mirror and this interactive experience where we invite people
(31:38):
to look at themselves and to answer the question what
does a good leader look like? What does it mean
to be a good leader? To you? While you gaze
into your own eyes, and hopefully UH think about consciously
or subconsciously what you're seeing in yourself, because that's our
way forward, right. It's not going to be some psionic
(32:00):
character who comes to save us. All we are the
ones um and so UM. We also think about how
people visit in cultural institutions as families, UM, as school groups, UM.
And so with those kinds of things in mind, how
do you broach a topic of this sort with a
(32:22):
very young person? Um, I'm a mother, I have my
younger My younger child is eight and this is important content,
but it's heavy. How can somebody like me have a
conversation starter something to begin a conversation that's going to
be age appropriate with a kiddo the age of my son.
(32:42):
So when you think about that us UM Colored Troops
regimental flag. One of the things that we have as
a little small table where you can draw your own
flag and represent the colors, the ideas, the symbols that
mean family to you, or that that you you think
represent yourself, and have a conversation about that. What does
(33:04):
it mean to carry a banner? What does it mean
to stand for something? We have an interactive exercise where
you can pack a bag because some people pack their
bags right, Millions of people pack their bags instead. I've
had enough of this, Jim Crow south, Um, We'll try
it up north, or some of us like to say
up south, um, or I'll go off to Europe or
(33:27):
whatever the case may be. What why didn't everybody make
that choice? What were you leaving behind? What would you
take with you? What would you do once you got
to where you're going? And so kids love to play
with that and think about what they would pack, um,
what they would have to leave behind, um, what it
would mean to them to leave behind, for example, land
(33:51):
where all of your ancestors are buried and where they
labored without compensation for generations. So that's a tough conversation,
but that little kernel of just that interactivity and thinking
about like what would what would I take and what
would I keep, that's a great way in so we
try to do as many of those as we can
fit in. I love that idea because as difficult as
(34:13):
it is to broach subjects that are often very dark
and unpleasant with kids, like I like to think of
how that becomes a layered and nuanced lesson when they're
a little bit older and they are taking in more
of the details that are a little bit harder to
share with the younger kid. They will remember doing that
activity and thinking about what that meant to leave something behind.
So it kind of it's exactly what you're talking about earlier,
(34:36):
where self discovery will imprint something a lot more poignantly
than just being talked to you. They will remember doing
that when they later learn another part of the lesson,
And so I love it. Um, May I say something
else about that? Yes, the one other thing I wanted
to say because it's so important to me, And I'm
glad you phrased your point the way that you did
(34:56):
when you said, you know, when you're looking at something
dark and difficult, called there are yet these ways to
unpack it. I wanna, um just point out that one
of the reasons that we wanted to bring this exipot
at least, I wanted to bring this exhibition out on
that that part of things is because we center Jim
(35:17):
Crow when we're talking about Jim Crow, but this exhibition
is Black citizenship in the age of Jim Crow, and
that's an important distinction. The black citizenship part of that
conversation is really what's centered in this discussion. So while
Jim Crow was set up in opposition to that, the
(35:38):
center of this exhibition is about African American agency and
hope and inspiration and creativity, and that in and of
itself is a flip in terms of the way that
we talk about things and think about things. Uh. It
enables us to look at people's productivity and genius and
(35:59):
courage not only in reaction to their dehumanization, but just
as an affirmation of their humanity. It's a really different thing,
and it's an important thing. I would concur that exhibit.
Like I said, it covers a lot of very dark history,
but it ultimately, and part of it is because of
the way you've pasted out and the end is all art.
It still feels very celebratory of the persistence of the
(36:23):
black community through incredibly difficult times, which to me, it's
like that's the perfect send off, right. You see all
of these beautiful things that have bloomed out of this
difficult period and a lot of really unfair treatment. Um so,
and I love art, so I was a little bit
drooling over some of those paintings. This brings me to
(36:52):
my next question, which is a difficult to part. What
is your favorite piece in this exhibit? And then and
it may or may not be the same thing, what
do you think is the most important piece in the exhibit?
I know these are unkind and cruel questions to ask.
They are I love everything UM, So in terms of
my favorite piece, I'm going to cheat a little bit
(37:16):
and say my favorite thing. My favorite area of the
exhibition is the art section. It was first of all
a thrill to me, as an historian and a curator
of history UM to get to do an art except
a little mini art exhibition in here UM. I don't
(37:37):
often get the chance to do that, And I think
that it was so important to include because it leaves
us in a place one where we can think about
resistance and UM creativity in new and different ways than
(37:57):
we often do. So thinking about what the folks who
are represented in that section produced UM and looking at
it and marveling with it and being sparked by it
UM is important. First of all, all of those works
in the art section are works that were produced by
(38:19):
people who participated in Atlanta Universities UM Annual Jury Show,
which is the largest exposition of African American art UM
and in fact, at the time the largest exposition of
African descended people's art anywhere in the world ever, and
that persisted for um a little over thirty years, from
ninety two to UM the early nineteen seventies. What that
(38:42):
means necessarily is the artists who were producing those works
at that time, they were all retrospective to some extent
in terms of the period of time that we're thinking about.
So we're moving out of that era but reflecting on
it and using that to make a statement today. So
it's a wonderful send off, as you were saying, right,
because we can do the same thing whatever our genre,
whatever our medium. UM. So that's one thing. The other
(39:06):
thing is that it's beautiful to me in large part
because it represents where hope we're going as cultural institutions,
which is that rather than being competitive, we are in
this work together trying to create more full narratives. So
the Georgia Museum of Art, the High Museum of Art,
Clark Atlanta University Museum, they all were wonderful collaborators and
(39:30):
partners and making those those art pieces available. So it's
a kind of unique and singular opportunity to get to
see what people UM who have participated in that competition. UM,
like I said, produced UM in their reflections on African
American experience in painting and sculpture as well, UMS devastatingly beautiful.
(39:58):
So so that's a wonderful kind of aspect of that.
And I think that the other thing about the artwork
that is so meaningful to me is sometimes we don't
have the words right, like sometimes you just something is
evoked and you you get the feeling, you understand it.
There's a universality of human experience and what it pulls
(40:21):
out of you. And you don't have to know this
particular story. You don't have to have learned this particular
history for it to hit you and something to resonate
and something to connect and to understand how you are
connected by people to people who are, you know, decades removed,
who are in terms of identity, very different than yourself.
(40:43):
So that's my favorite section of the exhibition, if you'll
let me get away with that. And in terms of
I think, what was your other question most important? What
do you think it is the most important piece? Usually
I refuse to answer this exhibitions, but I'm going to
name some thing this I'm gonna I'm gonna go for it.
(41:03):
I'm gonna go for it, and I'm going to say
that to me. The two most important pieces in the
exhibition are the portrait of dread Scott that opens the exhibition,
because ensuing for his freedom, dread Scott is often portrayed
(41:24):
as old people will say the slave dread Scott sued
for his freedom when his master took him to a
free state. And ultimately, of course dread Scott lost that
suit and and was in factory enslaved. But what you
get in the opening of this exhibition with this portrait
(41:45):
of the man dread Scott, is that you get that
this human being who was enslaved, dread Scott, this man
sued for an opportunity to be a full American. And
that's where we start this conversation. And it's before the
(42:08):
Civil War, obviously, it's before the time period of most consideration,
which is, you know, between kind of eighteen sixty five
and um, the end of World War One. As most
of the exhibition, it's well before that. He was saying
not just I don't want to be enslaved, he was saying,
I am a full human being. I should be a
(42:30):
full citizen. I'm an American person, and so that's a
wonderful place to begin. And then I think, you know,
I would go back to the United States Colored Troops
regimental flag as the other that I would call out,
and I would say that I think that that is
so important because I meet students all the time who
(42:50):
are blown away by the fact that African Americans we're
fighting in all kinds of ways for their own freedom,
and in part killer were were dawning a national uniform
and fighting for this country and for their own freedom
even before they were universally emancipated. I will tell you
(43:13):
just a quick, kind of little story. One of the
earliest museum consultancies I had in my career was to
work with Frank Smith at the African American Civil War
Memorial and Freedom Foundation. I was introduced to the idea
of how important the United States Colored Troops were. The
project of the memorial to African Americans who fought in
(43:37):
the Civil War was to identify and name each of
them and provide a place where African Americans could go
and find the names of their ancestors who labored for
their own freedom and understand them as fully human beings
and not some caricature of some enslaved person. When I
(44:00):
first went to do that work, I didn't think it
had anything to do with me personally. Two interred sixty
five thousand people are a lot of people. But in
the grand scheme of things, right, like, you know, we're
a nation of millions and millions and millions of people. Um.
And I happened to mention to my father that I
was doing this work, and he said, you know, my grandfather,
(44:21):
who was born in eighteen eighty, said that he had
an uncle who fought with the United States Colored Troops
and his name was Immanuel. And I knew where my
people had been enslaved, and so I looked on the
roster just to see if his name was there, and
I wasn't expecting to find it, and I did. Um.
(44:43):
So this was a man who was enslaved who self emancipated,
right what we like to characterize is running away. He
emancipated himself, and he immediately went to war um with
without thought for his well, I'm sure he did have
thought for his life, but he he thought it more
(45:04):
important to fight for the liberation of others, and he did,
and he survived the war. UM And subsequent to finding
his name on that memorial, I was driven to go
back to that place where I knew those ancestors were from,
and I found the little church, and I found the
brick with his initials on it. And that's a connection
(45:24):
that African Americans don't often have. You're so unfortunately separated
from our past. And I was able to then take
that gift and take my son's to that place and
to put their fingers on the name of that man.
I think every African American person listening to this will
understand the significance and the poigns of that. It's a
(45:47):
very different thing for us because we have been so
separated from our past in that way, and it's an
incredibly humanizing thing for us. Oh, it's a beautiful story. Um.
This is, as we said, you know, in some ways
a hard exhibit to walk through, but it also has
this celebration element to it. And I know it's only
been open for a couple of weeks, but I'm curious
(46:07):
what reactions have been from the people that have come
to the Atlanta History Center to visit. We are excited
that there have been really positive reactions to this exhibition, UM,
and we know that from some of the comments that
people are leaving behind, but we also know it because
we've been kind of lurking and watching people in the
exhibition and watching them linger and watching them part of
(46:30):
part of it has actually been really beautiful because there
have been so many families that came. UM we pushed
hard to be open in time for the King Holiday,
which is one of our largest UM events of the year,
and literally thousands of people came to visit the exhibition.
We think something like close to four thousand people came.
(46:52):
I was a free day to the community, a community day,
and it was wonderful to see multiple generations of people
engaging in that exhibition together. It's also really nice to see,
particularly with the museum theater piece, to see people engaging
with each other, like people who who came who didn't
know one another. UM. So with the museum theater piece,
(47:13):
one of the things that Tunis Campbell's character does is
he shares his backstory and then he asks before telling
you it's a little bit of a spoiler, but before
telling you what happened to him, he says, what would
you do? They're telling me that I can leave and
they won't come after me, or I can stay and fight,
(47:36):
but they're coming after me. And I know what it
looks like when they come after you, and and and
suddenly people who are in that space, young and old,
black and white, and wherever you might be from, whatever
your background might be, you have to really kind of
sit for a minute and think about the implications of
all of this. And it's very interesting to watch people
(47:59):
dialogue with one another about this quandary. So people have
been really positive about it. We also did something brand
new for our institution, and we hosted a community dinner
and we had a relatively small group of people in
and they went and visited the exhibition, and then they
(48:22):
had a conversation with one another about not only what
they thought of the exhibition, but about the ways that
it mattered to them personally. So I think like, for example,
one of the first questions that people were asked as
they were engaging in conversation was, UM, what's your first
(48:45):
memory of understanding that race matters? That will open some
doors conversationally. We try really hard to create a space
where people can thoughtfully engage with sometimes difficult content in
a way that does not cast dispersions. UM does not
(49:10):
shut people down, but hopefully opens people up to really
exploring their own experience and being able to hear the
experience of other people. And now, uh, what is your
personal wish? Because you were so hands on with this exhibit,
I mean in some ways it's your baby, right right? Um,
what is your hope that people walk away with when
(49:32):
they leave that last room? From an historical perspective, I
hope if they understand that the narrative that they've been
taught might be inaccurate and that they have UM, we
all have, every single one of us. I have PhD
in this subject. I learned so much from the original exhibition.
We all have a lot to learn about. UM, the
(49:55):
ways that people human beings have. Oh, I is fought
for freedom and equity. So that's one thing. From an
historical perspective and from a forward thinking perspective, as they
walk out of that last room, I hope that people
will understand there are a million in one ways that
(50:16):
I can make a difference, That I can raise my
voice on my own behalf and on behalf of others,
and it's well worth doing. My last question is silly?
Are you ready? Can we talk about how handsome John
Warren Davis was. I turned my corner and saw that portrait,
and I was like, Holy Moses, gorgeous. I have a
(50:42):
lot of history crushes. I do too. I think that's natural.
He's so handsome, so many and you know, like I'm
just a sucker for a brilliant mind. So all of
these incredible quotes, and like they said, what in what year?
(51:03):
Um not to mention a creative artist? You know, forget it. Listen,
I'm married one two, we're speaking the same light age. Yeah,
I wow, handsome, Like I had not seen that portrait
of him before, and I just wanted being kind of
blown away. I was like, and I didn't know as
(51:23):
much about him as I would like. Um. I then
went home and was googling. It's like, oh, one of
the first ad the Lacey Beach afters Oh my god,
and then a gorgeous But to me, those are also
the fun things that are takeaways from exhibits like this.
For your like, there's a person I really didn't know
enough about it. Now I want to learn everything about
him because I think they're fascinating. Um. And so thank
(51:43):
you for bringing that to me and to the Atlantic
community and anyone who visits. Um, I think the importance
of exhibits like this cannot be understated or overstated. Yeah,
it's incredibly important and beautiful, and I appreciate all of
the effort because I know none of that just magically
drops into place. It's a lot of work. So thank
you so much, and thank you for spending so much
(52:04):
time with me today. Absolutely, thank you for having me, um,
and thank you for your interests in the exhibition, not
only for me, but on behalf of the whole team,
because you know, these things will happen with just one person. Oh,
it's a huge group effort, uh, And it turned out
so beautifully, So again, thank you. Thanks. I am so
so thankful to Kalinda for spending so much time with me.
(52:26):
And I also want to make sure I give a
special thanks to Howard Pausner, who is the manager of
media relations to the Atlanta History Center. He arranged this
interview and he spent an entire afternoon with me at
the History Center just walking around and talking while I
saw the exhibit, which was an absolute joy. If you're
in the Atlanta area or planning a visit sometime soon,
Black Citizenship in the Age of Jim Crow is something
you don't want to miss, especially with all of the
(52:48):
amazing additions to it that doctor Lee talked about. It
is running until June, and for more information about that
exhibit and all of the other really impressive programming at
the atlant A History Center, you can visit Atlanta History
Center dot com. Since that interview UM was a little
longer than some of our episodes, I'm keeping listener mail
(53:10):
very very short and it's funny. UM. This is from
our listener Melissa, who sent us a hilarious postcard of
Bigfoot carrying spam. Uh. It's from the Spam Museum, and
she writes, Holly and Tracy, you've kept me company on
a Midwest road trip, so I wanted to send you
a postcard to say thank you. Uh, Melissa, thank you
(53:32):
so much. I love this so desperately. It's the famous
photograph of Bigfoot that people hold up as the film evidence,
and he's got spam in his hand. It makes me happy.
I hope he had a sumptuous and delicious meal. Its
uh fried spam sandwiches. Big big hit at my house
as a kid. If you would like to write to us,
(53:53):
you could do so at History Podcast at iHeart radio
dot com. You can also find us on social media
as missed in His Street, and if you would like
to subscribe to the podcast, you can do that on
the I heart Radio app, at Apple Podcasts, or wherever
it is you like to listen. Stuff you Missed in
History Class is a production of I heart Radios How
(54:16):
Stuff Works. For more podcasts for my heart Radio, visit
the i heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you
listen to your favorite shows.
Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class, a production
of I Heart Radios How Stuff Works. Hello, and welcome
to the podcast. I'm Holly Frying and I'm Tracy B.
Wilson and I recently had the absolute pleasure and delight
of sitting down with Dr Kalinda Lee from the Atlanta
(00:22):
History Center to talk about all things history and what
keeps her passionate and how she got drawn into history
as a career. This interview also covers some of the
details of the History centers temporary exhibit Black Citizenship in
the Age of Jim Crow, and that's a topic that
Kalinda is really passionate about. So enjoy. As we said
(00:45):
in the introduction, I am here today with Dr Kalinda Lee,
who is the Atlanta History Center Vice President of Historical
Interpretation and Community Partnerships. Did I get that title correct?
You got it correct. It's a mouthful, it is. I
always worry because any time time somebody comes in with
a title that's like multi leveled like that, I'm nine
times out of ten, I'm gonna mess it up. But
(01:05):
my copy paste did me. Well. Uh, First of all,
I would love to hear your story and how you
became a historian, and what drove you to that field
and what keeps you going in that field. Sure, it's
a funny story, I think. So. Uh, my mom and
my stepfather are academics, so I'm going to go to
the way back machine for you. Perfect. So I remember
(01:27):
being about sixteen and saying to them, I will never
get a PhD. I will never be a humanity scholar
because I'm gonna do something important with my life. That's
what I said to my parents. We can, we could
give you a pass for that. So I went off
to college biology premd. But my senior year in high school, um,
(01:53):
I had been given you. You get these school wide
awards for like the best student in Dada da Da. Well,
I got the social science to ward despite myself. And
then I went off to college and I was in
this honors program that required that we take certain courses.
So I had to take these history courses, and I
had to take these philosophy courses, and again the grudgingly
(02:15):
I was loving them. So I started taking more, and
then I started taking more and I looked up sometime
toward probably the end of my sophomore year and realized
that I was I was on a track to be
a major in both of those subjects. Actually, so I
you know, I had a kind of major heart to
(02:36):
heart with my mom and my stepdad about it, who
were all going home, and then I had a talk
with my father about it, and I'm not I'm not
going to quote exactly what he said, but he said
something like, what are you gonna do with that? Esoteric
bs and um, And so I said, well, you know,
(02:56):
I'll go to law school. He was a lawyer. He
ate that up, and I left college applying to both
PhD and law programs and actually accepted admission in a
dual degree program that I had devised, which was going
to be like a pH d a n y U
and a law degree at Yale. And two years after
I deferred my entrance to Yale Law, the dean of
(03:19):
Yale Law School called me and he said, young lady,
you're holding somebody's seat. What are you gonna do? And
I had, you know, just this like flash moment, and
I said, I'm not coming. And so that set me
off on a path to figure out what I was
going to do with this history degree. I ended up
in a kind of really circuitous way recognizing that what
(03:41):
was really setting my heart on fire as I lived
and worked in schooled in New York was this kind
of public humanities thing. I didn't necessarily want to be
in a classroom. I wanted to maybe do documentary filmmaking
or museums or like. It was that stuff that got
me excited, the connections between the past in the present,
the so wet stuff that got me excited, and the
(04:03):
seeing people kind of come alive and be excited about
making those connections. And so it was a fairly long,
circuitous route. I won't take you through all of it,
but I will say I worked for a nonprofit arts organization.
I managed um a Contemporary, a nonprofit contemporary art museum.
I've worked in a few museums. I actually at one
(04:25):
point second guest myself and thought like this is a
kind of rough road, and did accept a professorship position.
I was a professor of history at UM Loyola University
of Chicago. But I just kept coming back to this
need to do programming and kind of what we call
public history. So I went back. I got a PhD
(04:45):
in American Studies from Emory University, and I've I've been
keeping it moving in the public humanities for a good
little while now, gosh almost, it's been twenty years almost
since I earned my doctorate, so it's been a minute.
You're such a busy bee, You're like a super striver.
I have a theory that probably part of why you
are so good at making those connections is because your
(05:06):
background is from a disparate assortment of study, which gives
you a broader sense of the world. I think if
you've already studied medicine and biology and then considered law,
and then looking at other parts of the humanities history,
you see the vast expanse of history instead of the
way people tend to think of it, which is edicts
(05:27):
from thrones and in seats of government, and there's so
much more going on, which I love. Yeah, I think
that's really true. And I think that the other thing
that's really true for me, is cliche as it might sound,
is I'm really clear that this work is on purpose
for me. And if there's anything I suggest to anybody,
(05:48):
let's figure out what that work is. It's on purpose
for you. Sometimes people talk about it in terms of
your passion, but I'll tell you, every single day, I
don't wake up feeling passionate about what's on my task.
But I do know that it's on purpose for me,
and that means that there's there's something I can bring
to this. There's some energy, some sparks, some inspiration, some
(06:08):
knowledge that is unique to me. Then nobody else can
kind of bring to this and so um that matters
to me tremendously, And it matters to me that people
connect with their own passions about history, because the truth is,
people actually love history. People are always talking history. They
didn't like history class, but they love history. They want
(06:31):
to know what came before them. They want to say,
like Grandma, tell me why. They want to know about
great so and so and so. They want to make
connections in that way. They want to figure out how
to learn the lessons of the path, from the lessons
of the past to kind of plan for brighter future
because people want those tools, but they don't want to
know exactly what year so and so crossed the bridge
(06:53):
or you know, that's what they're not as interested in.
And even as a history professor, I used to tell
my students all the time, I don't care about that.
I really don't. If you understand generally what happened and why,
the factors that have been motivating people over time, the
interactions between people. You'll put it together in your head
(07:15):
like you'll be able to sequence it. You'll you'll be
able to make sense of it. Um. And that's what
I'm really interested in. I love you. Uh. We always
say that the memorization of names and dates is what
kills kids interest in history very early on, because history
is full of a lot of great, weird stuff. But
when that's kind of what you're getting fed to regurgitate,
(07:36):
it robs it of all of its beauty. I think
I read a tweet that someone wrote after seeing you
speak in which they quoted you saying to do good history,
you have to do all the history. And I love
that quote. Will you talk a little bit about what
that means? Sure? So one thing I would say is
history is most society is great form of propaganda, right
(08:02):
because the history isn't what happened in the past. History
is ascribing meaning to what happened in the past. That's
what history is. That's what it means to do history.
And so if you look at national projects as far
back as we can imagine, like you know, we can
look at ancient Egyptians and Mesopotamians and like when we
see what their governments were up to. A lot of
(08:23):
it was about creating a narrative and then getting people
to kind of align with that. And what that means
is that you're always doing the selective work, you're always editing.
What I am really passionate about is doing all of it.
Let's remove ourselves from this this process of trying to
edit folks out, trying to edit dissension out, trying to
(08:46):
edit conflict out, trying to edit the messy bits that
don't fit into that narrative out, the messy bits that
don't fit into the meta narrative. That's the interesting stuff.
That's the stuff um that well. One, it's interesting because
nobody taught it to you. And too, it's interesting because
it aligns with what we already know about life, which
is that we don't just get in line and think
(09:08):
about it all the same way and do it all
the same way. And while the victors may write the history,
their stories are not all of the stories. So I
am about the business of doing it all. So in
my real of the Atlanta History Center, what that means
is it's not just about the politicians and the business leaders,
(09:28):
and you know, thinking about who made history in that way,
it's about the ordinary people who every day make the
decisions in their communities and in their in their churches
and in their families, who really make history. And the
example that I always give people when they ask me
about that, as I say, people always talk about Atlanta
an entrepreneurship, right, and this kind of new self rising narrative,
(09:52):
And they say, you know, it was about business and
the creation of manufacturing down here after the Civil War
that really distinguished Atlanta from other Southern cities and ultimately
helped to make it this bigger southern city, maybe even
the capital of the New South. And they talk about
the business leaders who pushed that forward. And I say, well,
(10:13):
let's talk about the child laborers, whose efforts are entirely unsung.
But if it wasn't for them in those textile meals,
if it wasn't for them taking care of other people's
babies when they were yet babies themselves, then we wouldn't
have had any of that. So let's look at their stories,
even if we don't know their names. I love it.
(10:36):
Um This ties nicely into my next question because I
want to talk to you about the exhibit that just
opened a couple of weeks ago, Black Citizenship in the
Age of Jim Crow. And I love it because it
busts a lot of myths, um and it tells the
whole story, which I really love. Will you talk a
little bit about the genesis of that exhibit coming to Atlanta? Sure? So.
(10:57):
Black Citizenship in the Age of Jim Crow was curated
by New York Historical Society, and they curated it from
the beginning with the intention that it be a traveling exhibition.
Was done in collaboration UM with the Guilt Guilder Layman
Institute and with the National Museum of African American History, UM,
(11:18):
the Smithsonian Institution, and what they were attempting to do
was at least twofold. One thing was to say, like,
let's look at this period of history beginning in reconstruction
that often gets short shrift. Right we go like right
from in African American history, will go from Civil War
(11:39):
to civil rights. UM. In Southern history, as it's kind
of generally understood, there's this crazy meta narrative that talks
about the Civil War and then this period of like
failure and reconstruction and then we're into World wars um,
and so they want to really look at They wanted
(12:00):
to really look at that period of African American engagement
and agency and struggle for full citizenship, that that are
those kind of forgotten years. So that was one thing.
The other thing that they wanted to do, because they're
in New York, was to say, this whole gem Crow
story is not just the Southern story, It's a national story, um.
And what are the implications of that. Let's look at
(12:21):
for them our own history and really understand the ways
that not only that that happened back then, but what
it means to us now, what the legacy is, um.
And so we were compelled by that. We went to
visit in New York. We were really compelled by what
we saw, but we wanted to change it some We
wanted to augment it some. One thing that I was
(12:44):
really concerned about as an historian is that Atlanta figures
really prominently in that story, and Atlanta does not talk
about that era of history. We often talk about the
Civil War. We love to naval gays about the Civil War.
(13:04):
Right and then and then we just apparently sat down
and waited for Martin Luther King to be born, and
so that's not the way it went, and we need
to really dig into that. And we have some singular
aspects of our local and regional history that really contribute
to that story and and our huge MythBusters about how
(13:29):
UM politically, socially, economically active African Americans have been in
trying to achieve equity throughout their history, and so UM,
fortunately and New York was amenable to a pretty major
UM augmentation amplification of that traveling exhibition, and we set
(13:53):
about the work of doing that here in partnership with
two major institutions, the Atlanta University Center Library and UM
Spellman College. And hopefully we'll get a chance to talk
about why them and who else helped. You mentioned that
(14:13):
you added additional context to this exhibit by including a
number of Atlanta specific elements both throughout it, and then
there's a beautiful room full of art at the end
that I was just blown away by. UM. Will you
talk about those additions, how you chose what you were
going to add, Maybe that big regimental flag that UM
kind of had me near tears. UM, there are a
(14:35):
lot of really amazing pieces in that show. Yeah, UM,
I would love to talk about the things that we
added in Atlanta, UM as we think about black citizenship
in the quest for full equity. So let's begin at
the beginning with the United States Colored Troops regimental flag.
That flag was painted by, first of all, artist of
(14:58):
quite some note, even Bustle Bowser. UM. Try to say
that fast five times always. It's a tongue twister. So
it's a beautiful artifact in and of itself. Right, It's
a hand painted, wonderful flag that UM has the motto
in it, let us prove ourselves men. The motto is
let us prove ourselves men, and it says everything, UM
(15:22):
about what African American men who joined the fight to
make sure that the Union won the Civil War? Uh,
we're thinking of and so two hundred and sixty five
thousand black men officially joined this struggle. Pause for a
moment and think about that. That narrative has been written
(15:46):
again and again as if African Americans were emancipated but
did nothing to affect their own emancipation. So that's number
one agency in really turning the tide in the war.
And think about also what it means for people who
had been enslaved, and even those who were free to
(16:07):
have been at best second class citizens wherever they might
have lived in this country. To dedicate themselves to the
cause of keeping the Union intact, proving their patriotism, their manhood,
their humanity, um and earning, as it were, uh their
(16:28):
right to American citizenship. It completely subverts this narrative of
people trying to suggest that anything was given them. So
that's the first thing. And then, you know, it also
makes us rethink what reconstruction then meant, because as soon
(16:48):
as the war was one by the North, one of
the things that was required was that African Americans be
um emancipated and afforded citizenship rights. And that meant for
black men that they gained the right to vote. And
not only did they gain the right to vote, but
they gained the right to represent themselves in elected office.
(17:08):
So by eighteen sixty eight there was one national representative
and three state representatives in the state House who were
African Americans, and a number of other African American elected
officials throughout the state. There's some really substantial things to
think about in terms of this. Two of the people
(17:28):
who were UM state legislators had been enslaved. Imagine that
these are people who weren't even allowed to read and
write right and who had learned to do these things
in any case, and we're about the business of representing
the state. One of them, in particular, Tunas Campbell. We
do UM a museum theater piece in the exhibition about
(17:49):
so if you come on the weekends, you'll get to
meet the past through Tunis Campbell. And one of the
things that Tunas talks about in that experience is how
he on his elected seat on UM the basis of
a campaign that advocated for universal schooling, which had not
(18:10):
been available for whites or black So universal primary and
secondary education, land redistribution not only for African Americans who
had toiled for generations without any compensation, but also for
white Yellomen farmers, and a more equitable distribution of wealth
(18:32):
and political power throughout the state. Imagine that this is
eighteen sixty eight, and there's no way that he or
Aaron Bradley or Henry McNeil Turner, the other two who served,
were elected without the support of both African Americans and whites.
So there was a moment, there was a very interesting
moment in eighteen sixty eight, nine, eighteen sixty eight, when
(18:55):
these people were putting forth really progressive ideas and were
voted into your office. And even though they were pushed out, Um,
even though there was an incredible backlash, UM, even though
it began right then began this rise of vitriolic white supremacy,
violent white supremacy, the rise of the KKK, and then
(19:16):
it's rebirth of nineteen fifteen at Stone Mountain. Um right
here in Georgia. Even though all of those things were happening,
these people and their progeny persisted in this fight to
be included. They kept going back to vote again. When
the three representatives from Georgia were ousted physically ousted from
the state House, they went to the president and they said,
(19:40):
you made a promise, we have a constitution, we need
to be reinstated. And they were reinstated, at least for
a period of time before Jim Crow laws really made
it impossible for them to assume those seats. Tunas Campbell
fought and fought and fought and fought to such an
extent that he was threatened with process acution. They were
(20:00):
gonna charge him with malfeasance in office, and they said,
but if you leave, if you abandon this, if you
go away, then we will leave you alone. We won't
pursue you. And he he stayed, and he fought the fight,
and he was imprisoned and sentenced to hard labor. So
it's essentially re enslaved. And then and then he left.
And when he was finally free from that, he left
(20:23):
and wrote a book called of My Sufferings in the
State of Georgia. UM. But you know, these people are
not just individuals who are interesting to know. They represent,
if you forget all of their names, they represent an
effort to represent themselves to access this basic kind of
American dream of autonomy and equity. UM. And they were
(20:46):
courageous in the face of some obstacles that I'm not
quite sure I would be willing to be so courageous
in the face of. And then you mentioned the art,
so UM. There are two other things that I want
to mention about the exhibition, UM. And what we added.
One thing is that we focused on uh, one thing
that was singular in Atlanta, and that is one of
(21:10):
the ways that African Americans fought, if you will, for citizenship,
for equity, was to educate themselves. Uh. It was clear
right that the powers that be had understood how dangerous
education could be because it was forbidden. And so they
formed schools UM in order to not only learn to
(21:32):
read and write, but affect you know, the promise of
of of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness for everyone.
And in Atlanta they founded the Atlanta University Center. Ultimately
five distinct schools that ultimately in nine came together under
that consortium. It is the largest institution of learning that
(21:55):
is the center all of the schools together for African
Americans in the country to this day. UM. And those
schools were founded immediately in the wake of emancipation. Imagine
what it means. Atlanta didn't even have a public high
school for African Americans until nineteen twenty four. And in
eighteen sixties, seven, eighteen sixty eight, you know, eighteen eighty one,
(22:17):
you're forming institutions of higher learning. That was incredible, and
people were coming out of those institutions who changed the
course of life in this place. They settled here in Atlanta,
many of them. UM. They agitated for rights here. They
built other schools, they formed businesses, they ran for political office,
(22:38):
even though they weren't allowed to do so. So all
these wonderful things were happening. And one of the key
things that happened, UM was that um w E. B.
Du Bois, who was a professor at Atlanta University, ultimately
went on to be the major founder of the National
Association for the Advancement of Colored People end up cp
So Atlanta was really a crisciple of African American action
(23:03):
and and struggle, UM and and brilliance, an agency in
achieving full humanity, human rights even more than civil rights.
And it completely belies its notion that African Americans, and
especially African Americans in the South were complacent in the
(23:24):
face of their subjugation. They were not. There's one of
the my favorite pieces is that beautiful portrait that's blown
up of all of the educators together with the talker
next to it, that is each one. It was so
moving asign from the fact that just like those dresses
are gorgeous, um, but it really is like you realize,
(23:46):
at a time when we don't think of necessary, I mean,
I can't imagine one in the ideal circumstances creating what
became such an incredibly rich educational history. But then to
think about the fact that this was not the best
of circumstances and they were fighting tooth and nail every way.
It's like, if that doesn't inspire people, I don't know
(24:06):
what will. Um. I get choked up just talking about
it because I love it so much. Um, We've been
talking about all of these things that are really separate
from the narrative we often get, which leaves out this
period of black agency in Atlanta but also was going
on in other places. Why do you think that's been
so downplayed over the years. One of the ways that
(24:30):
the repression of African Americans, but I would say, like,
you know, one of the ways that the repression of
anybody is legitimated is to suggest that they didn't want
anything better for themselves, that they weren't struggling for anything
better for themselves, um, that they weren't capable of anything
better for themselves. And that narrative, unfortunately, is really still
(24:51):
with us. Right. So you make people responsible for their
own marginalization in one way or another, and that narrative
kind of lets that's a bigger society off the hook,
but it also lets all of us as individuals off
the hook. Right, like I don't have to think about
that on my way to get groceries or right, I
(25:13):
don't have to do this work for other people because,
for goodness sake, they're happy, and you know, they're not
even doing that work for themselves. So I think it
serves a really important purpose um consciously and sometimes even
subconsciously UM to suggest that folks weren't always seeking freedom
and equity. But we know better that narrative, certainly in
(25:34):
African American history, extends for as long as there's been
such a thing as African Americans, um, which is to say,
you know, when people were captured in Africa, they weren't
African Americans, they were Africans, um, who were enslaved. So
slaves weren't brought from Africa. African people were brought to
(25:54):
America and enslaved. And from the moment of that capture,
we have all of these examples of how people human
beings have a will to freedom, have a will to
to autonomy, have a will to self expression, and people
have been engaging in and fighting for the rights for
(26:15):
that to be seen and understood and respected forever. Um.
So there were not there was not a reality to
happy slaves. There was not a reality to Jim Crow,
just meaning that you were separate over here and I
was separate over there. In fact, very much was about
legitimating how some people are lesser than other people and
(26:38):
what that means in terms of their access. One of
the things I love about the Traveling Exhibition UM, the
part that was curated in New York, that you can
see UM in Atlanta and elsewhere when it moves on,
is how they really do a great job in talking
about Jim Crow and the way that Jim Crow is
not just separate but equal. Jim Crow is about very
(27:01):
specifically saying African Americans are not suited for equity. If
you allow African Americans to fully participate in this democracy,
they will destroy it. Right. So, Jim Crow, this caricature,
and Zip Coon his cousin are are the people who
are responsible for for crime. And they are the people
(27:25):
who are responsible for poor governance, and they are the
people who are responsible for our general lack of safety.
They are the people who would be responsible for the
fall of European civilization as we we know it. If
you pause for a moment and think about that, then
you would understand that even though separate but Equal is
no longer with us, the ideologies of Jim Crow are
(27:47):
very much still alive. Um. So, so there there's lots
there I think to unpack. And the other thing I
would say with regard to your question is that there
are so many ways to resist. Everybody is not a marcher,
everybody's not running for office. Some people paint, some people
(28:08):
write poetry. Um, you know. Some people each one teach one.
Some people become teachers and help people develop the critical
thinking skills to make decisions for themselves. There are lots
and lots and lots of ways to resist, and there
are lots and lots of ways to express yourself. Because
(28:31):
I think sometimes when we talk about resistance, then we
place everybody in this context of reacting to something, and
just being fully human doesn't have to be a reaction
to people who think you're not fully human. Just being
fully human is just all of our drive to be
you know, fully ourselves, and so African Americans never, not
(28:56):
at any point in their history, stopped trying to do that.
One of the things I love about this exhibit is
that there is um a way in which it breaks
down concepts for people in very simple ways that are
easy to digest. There's a great segment on it where
it talks about voter suppression, and it's kind of a simple,
but very illustrative kind of board of interactive flip sections.
(29:20):
Will you talk a little bit about sort of balancing
those kind of interactive things with your more I won't
even say standard because it's that doesn't really encapsulate what
it is, but sort of what people would expect of
more static imagery with with text commentary attached, and how
you balance all of those out to make one big
cohesive idea in an exhibition. So one thing we're really
(29:46):
proud of at the Atlanta History Center is how we
like to take big, sometimes hard, daunting topics and make
them accessible for visitors of any age, of any educational level,
of any background. As a professor, I learned that talking
(30:08):
at people never ever works in terms of retaining any
kind of meaningful knowledge, right. It's about kind of planting
enough seeds so that people come to discoveries themselves. Those
discoveries stay with them forever, and so in our exhibitions,
one of the things that we want to always try
(30:29):
to do is create ways for people to discover for
themselves and make connections about ideas that feel relevant to them.
UM to have their say and sometimes to leave their
say behind so that other people can learn from the
people who came before them. And so that was a
big part of what we added to this exhibition. We
loved the content um that we saw when we went
(30:52):
to visit in New York, but we were concerned that
it was a lot of kind of talking in one direction. Right,
So we've got wonderful panels and labels and all, and
they're just talking at you. But you need a moment
to think about, to digest, to respond to all of
this content and make connections for yourself. So, for example,
(31:15):
in one section where we're thinking about the ways and
talking about displaying the ways that UM Jim Crow functioned,
and one of the things that Jim Crow did was
to constantly assert that African Americans are not capable of
self governance, let alone governance of anyone else. We have
this mirror and this interactive experience where we invite people
(31:38):
to look at themselves and to answer the question what
does a good leader look like? What does it mean
to be a good leader? To you? While you gaze
into your own eyes, and hopefully UH think about consciously
or subconsciously what you're seeing in yourself, because that's our
way forward, right. It's not going to be some psionic
(32:00):
character who comes to save us. All we are the
ones um and so UM. We also think about how
people visit in cultural institutions as families, UM, as school groups, UM.
And so with those kinds of things in mind, how
do you broach a topic of this sort with a
(32:22):
very young person? Um, I'm a mother, I have my
younger My younger child is eight and this is important content,
but it's heavy. How can somebody like me have a
conversation starter something to begin a conversation that's going to
be age appropriate with a kiddo the age of my son.
(32:42):
So when you think about that us UM Colored Troops
regimental flag. One of the things that we have as
a little small table where you can draw your own
flag and represent the colors, the ideas, the symbols that
mean family to you, or that that you you think
represent yourself, and have a conversation about that. What does
(33:04):
it mean to carry a banner? What does it mean
to stand for something? We have an interactive exercise where
you can pack a bag because some people pack their
bags right, Millions of people pack their bags instead. I've
had enough of this, Jim Crow south, Um, We'll try
it up north, or some of us like to say
up south, um, or I'll go off to Europe or
(33:27):
whatever the case may be. What why didn't everybody make
that choice? What were you leaving behind? What would you
take with you? What would you do once you got
to where you're going? And so kids love to play
with that and think about what they would pack, um,
what they would have to leave behind, um, what it
would mean to them to leave behind, for example, land
(33:51):
where all of your ancestors are buried and where they
labored without compensation for generations. So that's a tough conversation,
but that little kernel of just that interactivity and thinking
about like what would what would I take and what
would I keep, that's a great way in so we
try to do as many of those as we can
fit in. I love that idea because as difficult as
(34:13):
it is to broach subjects that are often very dark
and unpleasant with kids, like I like to think of
how that becomes a layered and nuanced lesson when they're
a little bit older and they are taking in more
of the details that are a little bit harder to
share with the younger kid. They will remember doing that
activity and thinking about what that meant to leave something behind.
So it kind of it's exactly what you're talking about earlier,
(34:36):
where self discovery will imprint something a lot more poignantly
than just being talked to you. They will remember doing
that when they later learn another part of the lesson,
And so I love it. Um, May I say something
else about that? Yes, the one other thing I wanted
to say because it's so important to me, And I'm
glad you phrased your point the way that you did
(34:56):
when you said, you know, when you're looking at something
dark and difficult, called there are yet these ways to
unpack it. I wanna, um just point out that one
of the reasons that we wanted to bring this exipot
at least, I wanted to bring this exhibition out on
that that part of things is because we center Jim
(35:17):
Crow when we're talking about Jim Crow, but this exhibition
is Black citizenship in the age of Jim Crow, and
that's an important distinction. The black citizenship part of that
conversation is really what's centered in this discussion. So while
Jim Crow was set up in opposition to that, the
(35:38):
center of this exhibition is about African American agency and
hope and inspiration and creativity, and that in and of
itself is a flip in terms of the way that
we talk about things and think about things. Uh. It
enables us to look at people's productivity and genius and
(35:59):
courage not only in reaction to their dehumanization, but just
as an affirmation of their humanity. It's a really different thing,
and it's an important thing. I would concur that exhibit.
Like I said, it covers a lot of very dark history,
but it ultimately, and part of it is because of
the way you've pasted out and the end is all art.
It still feels very celebratory of the persistence of the
(36:23):
black community through incredibly difficult times, which to me, it's
like that's the perfect send off, right. You see all
of these beautiful things that have bloomed out of this
difficult period and a lot of really unfair treatment. Um so,
and I love art, so I was a little bit
drooling over some of those paintings. This brings me to
(36:52):
my next question, which is a difficult to part. What
is your favorite piece in this exhibit? And then and
it may or may not be the same thing, what
do you think is the most important piece in the exhibit?
I know these are unkind and cruel questions to ask.
They are I love everything UM, So in terms of
my favorite piece, I'm going to cheat a little bit
(37:16):
and say my favorite thing. My favorite area of the
exhibition is the art section. It was first of all
a thrill to me, as an historian and a curator
of history UM to get to do an art except
a little mini art exhibition in here UM. I don't
(37:37):
often get the chance to do that, And I think
that it was so important to include because it leaves
us in a place one where we can think about
resistance and UM creativity in new and different ways than
(37:57):
we often do. So thinking about what the folks who
are represented in that section produced UM and looking at
it and marveling with it and being sparked by it
UM is important. First of all, all of those works
in the art section are works that were produced by
(38:19):
people who participated in Atlanta Universities UM Annual Jury Show,
which is the largest exposition of African American art UM
and in fact, at the time the largest exposition of
African descended people's art anywhere in the world ever, and
that persisted for um a little over thirty years, from
ninety two to UM the early nineteen seventies. What that
(38:42):
means necessarily is the artists who were producing those works
at that time, they were all retrospective to some extent
in terms of the period of time that we're thinking about.
So we're moving out of that era but reflecting on
it and using that to make a statement today. So
it's a wonderful send off, as you were saying, right,
because we can do the same thing whatever our genre,
whatever our medium. UM. So that's one thing. The other
(39:06):
thing is that it's beautiful to me in large part
because it represents where hope we're going as cultural institutions,
which is that rather than being competitive, we are in
this work together trying to create more full narratives. So
the Georgia Museum of Art, the High Museum of Art,
Clark Atlanta University Museum, they all were wonderful collaborators and
(39:30):
partners and making those those art pieces available. So it's
a kind of unique and singular opportunity to get to
see what people UM who have participated in that competition. UM,
like I said, produced UM in their reflections on African
American experience in painting and sculpture as well, UMS devastatingly beautiful.
(39:58):
So so that's a wonderful kind of aspect of that.
And I think that the other thing about the artwork
that is so meaningful to me is sometimes we don't
have the words right, like sometimes you just something is
evoked and you you get the feeling, you understand it.
There's a universality of human experience and what it pulls
(40:21):
out of you. And you don't have to know this
particular story. You don't have to have learned this particular
history for it to hit you and something to resonate
and something to connect and to understand how you are
connected by people to people who are, you know, decades removed,
who are in terms of identity, very different than yourself.
(40:43):
So that's my favorite section of the exhibition, if you'll
let me get away with that. And in terms of
I think, what was your other question most important? What
do you think it is the most important piece? Usually
I refuse to answer this exhibitions, but I'm going to
name some thing this I'm gonna I'm gonna go for it.
(41:03):
I'm gonna go for it, and I'm going to say
that to me. The two most important pieces in the
exhibition are the portrait of dread Scott that opens the exhibition,
because ensuing for his freedom, dread Scott is often portrayed
(41:24):
as old people will say the slave dread Scott sued
for his freedom when his master took him to a
free state. And ultimately, of course dread Scott lost that
suit and and was in factory enslaved. But what you
get in the opening of this exhibition with this portrait
(41:45):
of the man dread Scott, is that you get that
this human being who was enslaved, dread Scott, this man
sued for an opportunity to be a full American. And
that's where we start this conversation. And it's before the
(42:08):
Civil War, obviously, it's before the time period of most consideration,
which is, you know, between kind of eighteen sixty five
and um, the end of World War One. As most
of the exhibition, it's well before that. He was saying
not just I don't want to be enslaved, he was saying,
I am a full human being. I should be a
(42:30):
full citizen. I'm an American person, and so that's a
wonderful place to begin. And then I think, you know,
I would go back to the United States Colored Troops
regimental flag as the other that I would call out,
and I would say that I think that that is
so important because I meet students all the time who
(42:50):
are blown away by the fact that African Americans we're
fighting in all kinds of ways for their own freedom,
and in part killer were were dawning a national uniform
and fighting for this country and for their own freedom
even before they were universally emancipated. I will tell you
(43:13):
just a quick, kind of little story. One of the
earliest museum consultancies I had in my career was to
work with Frank Smith at the African American Civil War
Memorial and Freedom Foundation. I was introduced to the idea
of how important the United States Colored Troops were. The
project of the memorial to African Americans who fought in
(43:37):
the Civil War was to identify and name each of
them and provide a place where African Americans could go
and find the names of their ancestors who labored for
their own freedom and understand them as fully human beings
and not some caricature of some enslaved person. When I
(44:00):
first went to do that work, I didn't think it
had anything to do with me personally. Two interred sixty
five thousand people are a lot of people. But in
the grand scheme of things, right, like, you know, we're
a nation of millions and millions and millions of people. Um.
And I happened to mention to my father that I
was doing this work, and he said, you know, my grandfather,
(44:21):
who was born in eighteen eighty, said that he had
an uncle who fought with the United States Colored Troops
and his name was Immanuel. And I knew where my
people had been enslaved, and so I looked on the
roster just to see if his name was there, and
I wasn't expecting to find it, and I did. Um.
(44:43):
So this was a man who was enslaved who self emancipated,
right what we like to characterize is running away. He
emancipated himself, and he immediately went to war um with
without thought for his well, I'm sure he did have
thought for his life, but he he thought it more
(45:04):
important to fight for the liberation of others, and he did,
and he survived the war. UM And subsequent to finding
his name on that memorial, I was driven to go
back to that place where I knew those ancestors were from,
and I found the little church, and I found the
brick with his initials on it. And that's a connection
(45:24):
that African Americans don't often have. You're so unfortunately separated
from our past. And I was able to then take
that gift and take my son's to that place and
to put their fingers on the name of that man.
I think every African American person listening to this will
understand the significance and the poigns of that. It's a
(45:47):
very different thing for us because we have been so
separated from our past in that way, and it's an
incredibly humanizing thing for us. Oh, it's a beautiful story. Um.
This is, as we said, you know, in some ways
a hard exhibit to walk through, but it also has
this celebration element to it. And I know it's only
been open for a couple of weeks, but I'm curious
(46:07):
what reactions have been from the people that have come
to the Atlanta History Center to visit. We are excited
that there have been really positive reactions to this exhibition, UM,
and we know that from some of the comments that
people are leaving behind, but we also know it because
we've been kind of lurking and watching people in the
exhibition and watching them linger and watching them part of
(46:30):
part of it has actually been really beautiful because there
have been so many families that came. UM we pushed
hard to be open in time for the King Holiday,
which is one of our largest UM events of the year,
and literally thousands of people came to visit the exhibition.
We think something like close to four thousand people came.
(46:52):
I was a free day to the community, a community day,
and it was wonderful to see multiple generations of people
engaging in that exhibition together. It's also really nice to see,
particularly with the museum theater piece, to see people engaging
with each other, like people who who came who didn't
know one another. UM. So with the museum theater piece,
(47:13):
one of the things that Tunis Campbell's character does is
he shares his backstory and then he asks before telling
you it's a little bit of a spoiler, but before
telling you what happened to him, he says, what would
you do? They're telling me that I can leave and
they won't come after me, or I can stay and fight,
(47:36):
but they're coming after me. And I know what it
looks like when they come after you, and and and
suddenly people who are in that space, young and old,
black and white, and wherever you might be from, whatever
your background might be, you have to really kind of
sit for a minute and think about the implications of
all of this. And it's very interesting to watch people
(47:59):
dialogue with one another about this quandary. So people have
been really positive about it. We also did something brand
new for our institution, and we hosted a community dinner
and we had a relatively small group of people in
and they went and visited the exhibition, and then they
(48:22):
had a conversation with one another about not only what
they thought of the exhibition, but about the ways that
it mattered to them personally. So I think like, for example,
one of the first questions that people were asked as
they were engaging in conversation was, UM, what's your first
(48:45):
memory of understanding that race matters? That will open some
doors conversationally. We try really hard to create a space
where people can thoughtfully engage with sometimes difficult content in
a way that does not cast dispersions. UM does not
(49:10):
shut people down, but hopefully opens people up to really
exploring their own experience and being able to hear the
experience of other people. And now, uh, what is your
personal wish? Because you were so hands on with this exhibit,
I mean in some ways it's your baby, right right? Um,
what is your hope that people walk away with when
(49:32):
they leave that last room? From an historical perspective, I
hope if they understand that the narrative that they've been
taught might be inaccurate and that they have UM, we
all have, every single one of us. I have PhD
in this subject. I learned so much from the original exhibition.
We all have a lot to learn about. UM, the
(49:55):
ways that people human beings have. Oh, I is fought
for freedom and equity. So that's one thing. From an
historical perspective and from a forward thinking perspective, as they
walk out of that last room, I hope that people
will understand there are a million in one ways that
(50:16):
I can make a difference, That I can raise my
voice on my own behalf and on behalf of others,
and it's well worth doing. My last question is silly?
Are you ready? Can we talk about how handsome John
Warren Davis was. I turned my corner and saw that portrait,
and I was like, Holy Moses, gorgeous. I have a
(50:42):
lot of history crushes. I do too. I think that's natural.
He's so handsome, so many and you know, like I'm
just a sucker for a brilliant mind. So all of
these incredible quotes, and like they said, what in what year?
(51:03):
Um not to mention a creative artist? You know, forget it. Listen,
I'm married one two, we're speaking the same light age. Yeah,
I wow, handsome, Like I had not seen that portrait
of him before, and I just wanted being kind of
blown away. I was like, and I didn't know as
(51:23):
much about him as I would like. Um. I then
went home and was googling. It's like, oh, one of
the first ad the Lacey Beach afters Oh my god,
and then a gorgeous But to me, those are also
the fun things that are takeaways from exhibits like this.
For your like, there's a person I really didn't know
enough about it. Now I want to learn everything about
him because I think they're fascinating. Um. And so thank
(51:43):
you for bringing that to me and to the Atlantic
community and anyone who visits. Um, I think the importance
of exhibits like this cannot be understated or overstated. Yeah,
it's incredibly important and beautiful, and I appreciate all of
the effort because I know none of that just magically
drops into place. It's a lot of work. So thank
you so much, and thank you for spending so much
(52:04):
time with me today. Absolutely, thank you for having me, um,
and thank you for your interests in the exhibition, not
only for me, but on behalf of the whole team,
because you know, these things will happen with just one person. Oh,
it's a huge group effort, uh, And it turned out
so beautifully, So again, thank you. Thanks. I am so
so thankful to Kalinda for spending so much time with me.
(52:26):
And I also want to make sure I give a
special thanks to Howard Pausner, who is the manager of
media relations to the Atlanta History Center. He arranged this
interview and he spent an entire afternoon with me at
the History Center just walking around and talking while I
saw the exhibit, which was an absolute joy. If you're
in the Atlanta area or planning a visit sometime soon,
Black Citizenship in the Age of Jim Crow is something
you don't want to miss, especially with all of the
(52:48):
amazing additions to it that doctor Lee talked about. It
is running until June, and for more information about that
exhibit and all of the other really impressive programming at
the atlant A History Center, you can visit Atlanta History
Center dot com. Since that interview UM was a little
longer than some of our episodes, I'm keeping listener mail
(53:10):
very very short and it's funny. UM. This is from
our listener Melissa, who sent us a hilarious postcard of
Bigfoot carrying spam. Uh. It's from the Spam Museum, and
she writes, Holly and Tracy, you've kept me company on
a Midwest road trip, so I wanted to send you
a postcard to say thank you. Uh, Melissa, thank you
(53:32):
so much. I love this so desperately. It's the famous
photograph of Bigfoot that people hold up as the film evidence,
and he's got spam in his hand. It makes me happy.
I hope he had a sumptuous and delicious meal. Its
uh fried spam sandwiches. Big big hit at my house
as a kid. If you would like to write to us,
(53:53):
you could do so at History Podcast at iHeart radio
dot com. You can also find us on social media
as missed in His Street, and if you would like
to subscribe to the podcast, you can do that on
the I heart Radio app, at Apple Podcasts, or wherever
it is you like to listen. Stuff you Missed in
History Class is a production of I heart Radios How
(54:16):
Stuff Works. For more podcasts for my heart Radio, visit
the i heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you
listen to your favorite shows.
Stuff You Missed in History Class News
Hosts And Creators
Holly Frey
Tracy Wilson
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