Ed Sheeran Gets Personal w/ Charlamagne Tha God

In a worldwide exclusive, Ed sits down with Charlamagne to discuss love, life, and the making of his latest album, No.6 Collaborations Project.  

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:04):
Tell us where we are right now. We are in
my treehouse. This is a treehouse. You got a treehouse studio. Yeah,
this is where I made Divide and where I now
do all my sort of work. While while we're here,
let me play. Let me play some number five. Number five,
number five. That was your original Alboration project. Yeah, two
thousand and oh god, I want to say ten, but

(00:26):
it actually came out first week of two thousand and eleven.
So this is before like you were popping, piping. Yeah,
this is actually what what made me pop. How do
you think I do you think that ship held up?
I mean, it's still one of It's still one of
my favorite projects I've done. Okay, I play. I played

(00:46):
one another one from the top, and that's the project
that got you signed. Number five. Yeah, well I did.
I basically did five vps before I got signed, And
because I did, I did. I was into so much stuff,

(01:07):
much much like with the project here there was. I
was inplumed by so much stuff. So I had one
record that I just did fully with the bands. The
next record was like what my first album pretty much
ended up being. And then I did one that was
just completely acoustic that was all written with this one
girl as a duet, and then I did a live
DVD and a live album, all of those, and then
I did this. So this was number five of the EPs,

(01:29):
and it was kind of like the momentum of all
of those that ended up getting me signed was it
was your thought prices the same when you made number five,
like you're just gonna work with artists that. Yeah, back then,
you can only get the artists you could get because
you wasn't like no, no, because no, because at this
at this point, Evelyn and Wiley, P Money, Jamie Marcha, Payne,
Gets Random, Impulse, Way Wretch, Dot Rotten, they were all
top of their game, like and it was like I

(01:51):
actually had to like do a lot of convincing because
I was quite you know, I was a new new artist.
But what I do is I just turn up at
like the studio with them, and then I was just persistent.
It was just like, we have to do a song,
we have to do a song, we have to do
a song, and then made it, made it happen. You
had a DJ Coward level of annoyance. Yeah, But I
think I've had that same thing on this one. Number six,
just because you have to be persistent, you have to

(02:13):
be on people to make it, to make it happen.
So what so this one got you signed? Or do
you hope this project though the number six? What do
you hope number six does for you? When I made this,
I wasn't I didn't want to be. It wasn't like
I'm going to get signed by making this. I made
this because it was so much fun to make, and
it was all all the artists I wanted to work with,
and I made these songs that I was just so
proud to play my friends. And it's pretty much the

(02:34):
same with this one. If I was like, oh, well,
it's going to help me do this and help me
do this, the fact is I've like I've already achieved
more than I thought I could, so right, and now
I'm at a point where I'm just having fun. You're
not as Sharon two kings a part Why the hell
y'all did a rock record because exactly that exactly. I

(02:56):
think people do not expect that any time I play
that to anyone. The first called the first instantly, people
go instantly. And I love that. I love that we'll
kind of rocky of the school meal with the heavy metal.
I think it would just be rock, classic rock, classic rock.
I mean we did loads of songs and loads of

(03:17):
different things, but we ended up on that song. And
it was purely by by by accident with having Chris
Stapleton and he just seemed the most interesting. So nobody said, hey,
we should do a rock song. It was just no, well,
I mean Chris, Chris had the riff. Chris was there
and then what was it? And he had he played
it's the riff, which is and then we were like, oh,

(03:42):
let's let's write write a song about that. Bruno took
it away and unbeknownst to me, him and Chris had
got together and fun with it a lot. Throughout throughout
my whole career, I've never had an excuse to get
a band, And now that's an excuse to maybe tour
with the bands, because I think play playing that live
would be different level. I've seen you live a couple
of times. That wouldn't be difficult for you on stage

(04:03):
with just the guitar. You think you can pull it off.
Oh well, I had an idea to do both. I
think you know, people like my loop pedal and no
one's seen with a band, and I think you could
have a show that incorporate I think it's time to
have a show that incorporates both of them personally. I
want to be normal Bruner because I feel like y'all
have had a similar payers. I remember Bruno in twenty ten,

(04:24):
but I opened up for him at iTunes Festival, Yeah,
in twenty eleven, and then I don't know, we just
we just hung out. I went and guested with him
a couple of times on tour, Like we've had nights
out together. It seems like you'll had an organic chemistry together. Yeah. Well,
I mean he's a phenomenal writer. Phenomenal writer. I mean
he's written so many others like he did to see

(04:45):
Tho Green, Fuck You, and like God, I don't know.
So yeah, Bruno's just like he's just a talented writer,
and he's so musically talent. He's played every every instrument
on that but Jones played the bass, played the guitar.
Like he's like different level in the studio you really
respect for I write at the mote like it's like
the same thing you were listening to Howard Stern yesterday,
And Howard Stern is like one of the greatest radio personalities.

(05:06):
You've got to You've got to. You've got to look
at your peers and the people you look up to,
and you know, I have a great respect of people
that can do things that I can't do. When I
was shocked to find out that you get no help
with your writing, like you write everything yourself lyrically, Yes,
but I think I need a lot of help with
production and making songs, you know. And there'll be songs

(05:26):
like the A Team and Perfects and stuff like that
that I'll just go in and I'd do a one
hundred percent myself. Whereas there'll be a song like Goalway Girl,
which is quite a collaborative thing. I'll go in with
a folk band and then we'll all write it together
with the folk band, but I would write the lyrics
for that and then it would be shaped in it. Basically,
did you look you look at other eithers different when
you find out the radio stuff, only if they have

(05:48):
nothing to do with it. I just find I'm just
kind of need to write songs to make me feel
better about myself. You get out all your demons in
music and then it kind of clears out your head.
It's it's like it's exactly therapy I saw Elton john
car you want to like one of the best song
writer of this generation. It's very kind of I don't know,

(06:09):
I like writing songs, but I feel like I'm improving
day by day by going in the studio people like
Chris Stapleton and Bruno Mars. You're just expanding your palette
and learning new things. I think you're growing by just
living life like order. You get the more experience as
you get, but you can't you can't. You can't become
better unless you around people who can teach you things.

(06:29):
If I just worked in this studio, things would start
sounding a bit stale after a while. Which is what's
so great about doing this collaborations project is I've worked
with so many different people and seeing how like Bruno's
process versus Travis Scott's process versus Chances process, we'll get
we'll get onto it. But he literally puts a mike
up and he just has the verse repeating, and he's

(06:49):
just there in the studio and it's kind of starts
off as a mumble and then like words go in
every now and then, and then like the first sentence
is done, but the rest of mumble and he'll just
do it over and over and over again, and then
the verse has done. The most amazing thing I've seen
people do it line by line, but in terms of
like he's memorizing all his mumbles and the cadence of
the mumbles, and then thinking of the lines, and then

(07:10):
memorizing the first lines and then getting totin like there
was no point that he stopped. It was just two
hours of that and then the verse was done, which
was a completely different thing for me to see. So
I'm learning stuff like that every day and since then
have tried that, tried putting putting, I mean I can't
do it yet, but putting songs together where you find
a melody and then you mumble the words and keep going,
keep going, and then it starts to fit. So it's

(07:31):
like learning stuff every day from people. So what do
you learn from Bruno? So as you look at him
as another amazing songwriter, or there any tricks you got
from him and it could make you better. We kind
of have the same approach for a lot of things.
You know, you throw a lot of ideas at the wall.
His ideas are just different to mine. When I was
in there, he was like, look, the reason we're working
together is we're both trying to get something from each other.

(07:51):
And if you just play the usual cause that you do,
you might as well just be working on your own.
So what would work as your melodies and lyrics over this?
And then if you have some chords that will go
over this, then my melodies and lyrics go over this,
and then that's what makes it interesting. So that chorus
on the Blow song is you know, a mixture of Chris,

(08:13):
a mixture of me, and a mixture of Bruno and
it all kind of came together like that. Basically, do
you find yourself battling battling him? Oh yeah, massively? Yeah, yeah,
that make the amount of arguments, which is kind of like,
you know, I think at the time he might. I
think he had two Diamond singles at that point and
I had one and he and he was just like,
but I've got two diamond singles and like it. They'd

(08:34):
be kind of like back and forth like that, and
then the next time I went in with him, I've
got two as well. So we've kind of had a
battle on that front for US world pop star problems,
Jesus Christ and what's the next South of the Border.
Why why did you pick those two young ladies to
collab on network. I've always wanted to make a song

(08:56):
with Hardi Bi Cardi b just personality wise, even even
if you just had a talking on the song, like
I've just I love her, Cherry's obsessed with her. She's
just I've got some meter review times. She's very animated,
very lovely, and so that. Yeah, I always wanted her
on a record. But I met comed in twenty thirteen
at the VMA's when she was in Fifth Harmony. We've
kind of always kept in touch and she's I don't

(09:17):
know if you've met her, but she's very, very very sweet,
very very nice. It has a Latin flavor, you could
say that, yeah, you know she's from Cuba. She speaks
fluent Spanish and Cardi's Dominican. Yes, yeah, And I just
felt like it was it was a good, good mix.
Does since since you and Bruno have such a friendly competition,

(09:39):
when you see him have these records with Cardi, you know,
does that make you want to do that type of collabiration.
I definitely saw the Finesse tune and like was like, wow, man, God,
I wish I had done that, but then I couldn't
have done it. I can't dance like that, dude. It's
just it would have been weird. It would have been
a weird thing. So I feel like that is me,
and I like Bruno does his thing with Cardi, but

(10:02):
then Cardi's like Cardi's on a lot of records. She's
just you know, I like Bruno doing really well because
it spurs me on to do really well. Hopefully if
I do well, it spurs him on. It's not like
there's never a vindictiveness in it. It's just like, oh shit,
he's doing that. I should I should work harder and
do this, rather than a like I want to be
doing better than you. You and Cardie got similar energies
to her because Cardi is authentically herself and you're authentically yourself.

(10:25):
You think that's why you gravity toward Yeah, I mean,
I just I love how unfiltered she is. You know,
she literally she's me so media trained not to be
media trained. You know, like her whole stick is she
goes on and says whatever she wants and that is
what works for her, whereas I never had a media
training either. And I feel like I get to just

(10:45):
say what I want, and she's successful because she is
who she is. She's there's no one else that can
be Cardi B. And there's going to be countless people
now that try to be Yeah, she had had her
success and it's going to be fake. Yeah. I feel
like I was trying to be fake real and you're
trying to be fake authentically. Yeah, trying to be fake
cut yeah, yeah, yeah. What's next next is the chance
to refer from P and B rock song about that's

(11:07):
my scene. That's all the snow. If you cross hard
and you cross me cross I made you want to
get a chance? You want to record a bunch of lady.
You can just tell just from the way that he
his approach was to it. His whole verse was like
this that line we were talking about yesterday, They never
say hi to me without her Like it's just like
there's just a you can't teach that level of respect.

(11:29):
He's obviously brought up with a very very strong, loving mother,
you know, and probably with a lot of women around him,
and it's it's it's good. I'll play you what we
what we actually got the sample from, because it's a
P and B sample, it's a P and B rock sample. Yeah,
so freestyle, how is it anything she needs? She can
call me, don't worry about it. That's my scene of
that saw me to snow. If you cast her and

(11:51):
you cost me up. P and B made it a
hot line. You made it a hot song. That's hard.
You said it's hard to right about. No, it's easier
to write about heartbreak than it is about love. But
I feel like you captured well. No, I don't know.
I think it's easier to write multiple songs about heartbreak.
I mean, it's kind of like to find the right

(12:12):
fucking angle to write a love song about, which isn't
just you make me feel this way, and it's like
find it. It's about finding different angles. Now, for me,
it's not about I've done thinking out loud, I've done perfect,
I've done the the love songs about finding different angles.
Now to do that, that's a different type of love song,
right there. Yeah, that's expressed in love nicely, and I

(12:32):
think I think my view of it is that because
it has so many ups and downs in the song,
you know, there's the bit where it just cuts out
and then just suddenly you and your girl everyone will
be doing that. I think it'd be fun. What was
your lady's reaction when she heard that song? Just say, finally, finally,

(12:54):
you didn't make a depressing song about me, something we
can dance to. Yeah. No, she likes it. She likes
a lot she but she likes um. I think she
likes the message of it because it's quite. It's quite.
It makes her feel like badass as well. You know
you you originally hear the song and it's it sounds
like it's me being like, I'm going to be protective,
but actually it's a scaring people might try right now
because you've got her artist looking like a tough guy. No,

(13:16):
because you know I'm not. I'm not a tough guy.
But I've got a security guy. Hey, you know he's
he's grumpy, so he's going away. What's next? The stormsy
one to the Sky. Yeah. Yeah, you're such an intriguing
artist because you perhaps sing R and B, but it

(13:39):
seems like UK rap has influenced you just as much
as all that other stuff. Yeah. Well, I think I
think rap in general, but UK rap was you know,
the first bit intro for me into this was me
doing that collaborations thing. And I've been working with UK
artists since since since then, you know, we've kind of
been friends for a very very long time, but never
really worked together. He did he remake Shape of You
for me, but never really worked together on a song.

(14:01):
Everything happens for a reason, and I feel like this
happened for a reason. What's the next next is the
y ever tune, which I'd like to say. I played
this to Charlemagne yesterday and I played him yeb just
just before I played in the song called Evergreen, and
he was obviously blown away because she's amazing. But then
I do my verse on this song. He's like, I
can tell she's just going to come and body you

(14:22):
about the body, and I was right. She bodied you
on this record. And this is why you're doing the interview,
because you're honest. My lungs black, my hardest, pure god,
we did that here actually really, Yeah, thank you for
introducing me to Hurry Yabba. She's phenomenal and she boded

(14:42):
you on that record. Thank you. But you know that,
Like that's right. But I think, as I said to
you when the song was playing, you should only be
working with people that you think are better than you,
so it helps you grow as a person. Like when
I the song wo Beyonce, she definitely bodied me on
that did the song with hell like he definitely like
these people are the peak of their game. Yeah, yeah,

(15:03):
you know, perfect as a lord. Debatable. That was a
good back and forth. Oh, I mean that was This
is a good back and forth too. But you know, yeah,
but I feel like, you know, I'm not I don't
want to do I don't want to I don't want
to have a feature that isn't amazing. She hit a
note on there. I'm like, I don't even know what
there was. Yeah, it sound like you could have been
like some offects on or something like. Yeah. But like
if like if that had you know, someone that it

(15:26):
didn't compliment it, I don't know. I feel like it
if you have a song that you think is good
and you put someone that you think is amazing, it
instantly makes the song incredible. So yeah, it was. I
had taken her on tour in twenty seventeen, so we
were in touch anyway, and she came to see my
Wembley show recently and we reconnected there and we've been
on email and she sent me demos of her songs
that I've listened to and stuff like that, so we've

(15:47):
always we've always had a really cool relationship. I got
on the phone with her one day and I was like,
I have the song, send it to her. She sent
back her verse and then and then I was like,
we have to get in and make sure that the
chorus lifts and we can sing it to and it
sounds like we've actually been in the same room and
made it. Something like that you can't really make remotely.
You have to be in the same room. Sometimes I
play people artists and some people will be like, oh

(16:09):
my god, been the best thing the world, and some
people like I just don't get it. But there's no
one that doesn't get her. It's so easy to get.
It's just like, Wow, she's incredibly talented. Yeah, I mean
people like her just let me know that. It's just
a matter of timing, because you know, you know, when
when you put me on her and I pulled it
over Green on Instagram, the people in my comments like, oh,
you're late. Oh I listened to that song a lot
of times. Yeah, but there's but there's late, and there's

(16:30):
there's late, like there's you know, there's people that would
have been on Travis Scott from the very, very very beginning.
You know that would be like, oh, you're late if
you got into him at goosebumps or whatever. It's so
I think you know you can't be there from the beginning.
Was she willing to be as open as you were?
Did you have to kind of like push her? Yeah?
Well I said it. I said it on on on
the phone. I said, like for me, for me, I

(16:51):
was writing stuff that was embarrassing to me, you know,
my deepest secrets that And I said, if you're if,
if you're going to write it, just make sure that
if each line is uncomfortable for you to write, we
will be like, oh gosh, I'll be telling people this.
That's the kind of vibe I wants you to have. It.
Is it healthy to think that the best of you
is another person? Though maybe not, but I'm sure you

(17:13):
think some of the best parts of you were your wife,
And I think it's it might it might not be healthy,
but I feel like it's a human flaw. But to
be like, like I'm constantly wake up every day with
Cherry and I'm just like, why the fuck are you
with me? Like you could be you literally be with
who who, whoever you want to You've chosen, You've chosen me,
And like I'm saying, all of the things that I

(17:35):
think are wrong with me, but you still want to
be with me. And I just find that amazing. But
doesn't they keep you in a content state of anxiety,
like constantly questioning whether or not no, no, because no,
because she doesn't she doesn't add fuel to the flame.
I think. I think I think if she was like, well, yeah, why,

(17:55):
then then you get anxiety. But I think it's quite
a sweet thing to I think it's quite sweet to
always think that the person you're with is out of
your league. Imagine imagine if you were like with your wife, like, yeah,
you're with me because I'm fucking amazing. Like it's like,
it's it's quite a sweet thing. It keeps you on
your tools. Yeah, and you don't ever take it from granted. Yeah, mate,
And that's the way. That would be the worst thing,

(18:15):
to just just be Yeah, to take it for granted.
And I tour a lot. I spend a lot of
time on the road, and I think I have to
go on the road and have this belief that you know,
with this is meant to be what's next eminem fifty cent?
Remember the name? Yeah, I work wanted to make it

(18:35):
big ship. When you know a record is completely done,
I don't if you know. If it's up to me,
I keep I'll keep tweaking it. It's weird, like the
musical side of it. If it sounds good, it's done.
Like for me, like even if the guitar is like
slightly out of tune, or like the vocals are a
bit rough, Like, if it sounds good, it's done. But
when it comes to mixing, it's just I don't know.
You have to listen to it on so many different speakers.

(18:57):
So we've got like two different speakers here, and then
I'll usually do a mix on like just regular headphones.
I want it to be good on so many different things,
Like it could sound amazing and hearing you take it
in the car and it's all kind of so yeah,
that's when you don't know it's done. But usually the
deadline comes and then someone takes and it comes up.
I feel like that record is like a childhood dreamy
or like the Pub is the Pub in New York.

(19:18):
I had two songs I always wanted to do with Eminem.
I was like, if I ever get to work with Eminem,
that's two songs I want to do, and it's one's
like an introspective storytelling one and one is something that's
kind of is more of a nod towards some of
the cheekier songs on the Marshal Mathers LP or like
the Eminem Show. And I was like, when I when
I when I work, when I work with him, because

(19:38):
in my mind, I was like, it's always going to happen.
I've just gotta wait. I'll do those two songs. And
one led to the other. So I did the River
Song with him for the Revival record, and then through
that got to know him and then I was able
to sit down with him and Detroit and approach him
with this song and it didn't feel weird. And now
and now I feel like I've ticked my two boxes.
It feels yeah, it feels good. And you're verse you
talk about people will en being your private leves. You

(20:00):
started to go a little Eminem on the blogs on
ever just a little bit. It was actually before me
and Cherry got married, and I knew that we'd be
married by the point that the song came out and
so I said, watch how the lyrics might get twisted.
My wife always read the looks better without the lipstick.
And I was just like, someone's going to hear that
they're married, and I didn't know how that would be construed,
but obviously it's already come out. The other thing I
think it's funny, is I say I mentioned Ipswich in it,

(20:22):
which is a town near here, which is like Eminem
would never ever know ways, which is so to be
able to have a song with Eminem and fifty cent
and the first line is yeah, yeah, I was born
just to be able to have that. Just like whenever
I go to Ipswich now, they'll just be someone will
be like thanks, man. That's how it is in America.

(20:44):
If you shout out a certain compute or a certain hood,
they'd be like, yeah, oh good lookers. Was the same
thing over here. Yeah, And I mean, you know, there's
only there's only a few musicians that have ever come
out of Suffolk as a county. The whole county let alone,
shouted out Ipswich. So I feel like it's so you're
get free fish and chips Inwitch. I'd never get that.
They'd be like, you can afford it made. So I

(21:06):
made that song in Sweden with Max Martin, who's a
who's a really big songwriter producer, and I was writing
my verse and then cheekly at the end of it,
I just said, right, Max, I want to like, I
want to wish this into existence, like it's um listen
to my vestigating I would work. Yeah, I wanted to

(21:26):
make it. Yeah. Yeah. So at the end of the verse,
I said, I want way more than I've already got
to give me a song with Eminem and fifty cent.
And I said to Max, I was like, I'm going,
I'm going to London tomorrow to go and guest with Eminem,
so I'll ask him about the tune then and see
if he can get fifty cent on it. And I
walked in Eminem's dressing room and it's him in fifty

(21:47):
cent in there, and I was like, this, this has
to be, has to be meant to be. I think
they were quite they were quite weird about it because
I was like, do you believe in fate and was
trying to make decision. Yeah, you know, I did walk
in and I was like, look, I'm I'm a great
believer of things. Things are meant to be the way
they're meant to be, because that like, you can't you

(22:10):
can't get to my stage in my career and think
that it's all down to some like just hard work
or just this like this definitely definitely things that I
was in the right place at the right time and
this and that. So it was actually quite a cool
meeting because I played him the song and I thought
we'd record it then, but he was just like, leave it,
leave it with me, because he writes and writes and
writes and writes and goes over. So we just sat

(22:30):
and chop. It was the day after Kamakazi had come out,
and no one knew it was coming out, and then
suddenly it came out and I was like, fuck, I'm
seeing him tomorrow. I get to kind of like talk
to him about it. Ya ya, y'all got a lot
of similarities in a weirdo because I really relate to
him and we have such different backgrounds, but I really
relate to him, and even even even even more so now,

(22:51):
like as a kid, I related to him just because
I felt like a bit of an outcast. But even
even now, like the way that we've we've both stuck
in our hometowns. We both we both live here. We
both got to a level where it's you're so famous
you cannot go outside, and so you have to kind
of live in your little compound. And having a conversation
with him about it and how he tours now, and

(23:13):
it's like, I'm kind of looking at the way he
does things, being like, that's how I should do it.
When I'm like, because he's got kids and stuff, and
he's a very very good father and he's there the
whole time. But my greatest fear is not raising my
kids because I'm constantly on tour. So what he does
is he makes an album and then he goes out
and does like a month of touring, and then he
comes back home and then that's that's it. And I
can talk to him on a level and he can

(23:34):
understand where I'm coming from, and I can understand where
he's coming from. But yeah, that's how I'm menting on
the same where you just described it defective if you
are still in your hometown. Yeah, And it's like a
level of self isolation, you know what i mean. Jerry's
trying to get me away from it. She's scared that
like the pub and the cinema, and like, just I
just I've like made it that my friends just can
come here out rather than me going out. So Cherry's

(23:56):
always trying to get me to go out more and more,
but it just gets to take her out in time
and let her, let her get mobbed, and then she'll
be like, you know, she's seen it, she's seen it,
and she doesn't she doesn't obviously doesn't like it, but
she's like, it's not healthy to do this. So how
do you stay at all? What's going on? Because like
your music, doesn't that sound like you're I listened to
your show every single day stuff like that. I read
the news every single day. I like keep I keep

(24:18):
up to date. I'm just I don't know. I lost
the ability to be able to go out to a
supermarket and buy a loaf of bread about not even
that long ago, like three years ago, and it's just
it's just different now there's certain places I can go.
That's why I live here, Like people around here treat
me pretty normally. But like London, because it's London such
a melting pot of so many different people, it's like
you can never sort of preempst what people are going

(24:39):
to be like. It was definitely very, very fun to
work with Eminem. Again, if you could have told twelve
year old me I would rap on a song with
Eminem when I was older, Like, you know, so many
people say that I can't rap, but I'm allowed on
a song with Eminem and fifty cent rappers, So like,
why does it matter twelve year old you was now
twenty eight year old. Juice of this still around all
as you a later. Yeah, I've played as people of

(25:02):
my generation who have that, Like Shade Records was just
us when we were like fourteen, We were just obsessed
with it. So playing that to like my best friends
now are all excited about it, But there'll be people
from your generation. They're excited about it, and they're people
from a completely different generation who maybe haven't they're not
really that aware of it, but maybe they've heard Shape
of You and like Shape of You that will listen

(25:23):
to this project have a different impact on somebody that's
my age or because I'm thinking, damn, fifteen, am I
such an underrated combination because you start thinking about like
patiently waiting, you know what I mean, all the songs
that they've done together and you're like, okay, I like
hearing that was why I really really wanted to get
the two of them. I could have just done that
with with them, but it was like, I mean, the

(25:47):
hook that I wrote is so fifty cents. It just
had to it had to be the had to be
that one thing that's not missing the doctor Dre dramas
with I know, I just think it's weird to go
with someone with a complete track and just be like,
please just put your name to I think if Dr
J does end up watching this, which who knows if
if if he will, but like, he is someone I
would love to work with, and I wouldn't feel comfortable

(26:09):
being like, here's a song, put your name to it.
I'd want to go in and create a song. Bible
record a lot of tool at a party. I don't
want to be and I don't ever wear. What made
you want to reach under Bible? Right now? Bieber just
got married. I just got married. That song is about

(26:29):
being at industry event with the woman you love, or
even put the person you love and kind of being like,
fuck this, let's just have fun ourselves. And I was
like it was actually Cherry's idea because she was. She
was like, oh, why don't you get Bieber? Like perfect
for this fits it? And you know, I have quite
a good relationship with him. I met him at Ze

(26:49):
one hundred thing. He came up and said, oh, I'm
a big fan, and I was like, wow, have you
heard my music? So we kept in touch. I wrote
some songs for him and with him for his project.
You know, we've just hung out a bunch of times.
I want to I want to work with Bieber. He's
got one of these voices that just works on anything,
and he's got personality on when he thinks. Were you
ever a social person? Because it seems like you're a

(27:12):
social which you only getting antisocial industry functions. So I
used to be super social industry functions I used my
My hobby was to go out to things and meet
people that I admired and then go out and drink
with them and end up at a bar. That was
not my favorite thing to do. So you know, I
kind of like ended up meeting all all my musical
heroes and go out to bars with them and having
fun with them. And then it's just now when I

(27:34):
go to these events, it's I just have social anxiety.
I just can't. I hate large groups of people, which
I run it because I played shows for a living,
but I just don't. I feel claustrophobic and I don't
like being around too many people. You think people it's
because you are a sharing and people demand too much
of you. Yeah, but it isn't even that. I don't
even mind talking to people. I have no problem with

(27:55):
having a conversation with people. It's just when people like
film me and shit and just kind of stare at me,
it's just makes me feel weird because it makes me
feel like I'm not human. You coming up and having
a conversation with me makes me feel human, even if
we've never met, even if you just come up. And
the thing that instantly shuts me off is having a
moment like that with someone that's so human and so
nice and at the end being like, oh but I

(28:17):
can have a picture, and it's like it kind of
then puts you back down to earth and it now
then you're just you're just that. You're literally just fifteen
lights on Instagram and you're that's that's what you are.
It makes you wonder if the conversation Yea we're having
was even yeah, because sometimes sometimes I have these conversations
with people in this where was it? I was it
a Marilyn Manson show and this guy just came up

(28:38):
to me and he literally just shook my hand and
when I like your music man, and then just and
I was like, wow, that was like such a short
thing and such a simple thing, but that meant so much. Yeah,
So I think I get kind of anxiety because you know,
if I was eating in a restaurant now, it's I
would prefer to have a private room because if I'm
eating in the room with everyone, I get people filming
me eat my food while I'm with my wife. It's
just I've just find it. But it's a bit. It's

(28:59):
you feel you feel like a zoo animal, and I don't.
I don't mean to be like complaining because I have
a very very cool job and life, but if I
can avoid it, I will. Yeah. I wouldn't want nobody
to record you eating fish and chips because let me
feel like able, but you eat like one as well,
Thank you very much. If you could have the success
without the theme, you would would you take that? I

(29:20):
think my success has happened because I'm so recognizable you know,
it's like I make good well I think i'll make
good music, but I make people that music that people like.
But you can, you can remember who I am, and
it's something in my own fucking fault as well. Look
at all these tattoos I've got, and then I start
wearing glasses again, and then that's just another thing to
make me more more recognizable. So I definitely don't help
myself in that. What's the next song, my brother? The

(29:42):
next song is called Antisocial and it's the Travis Scott one.
It sounds cleaner, don't touch me? What's that recond about? It?
Sound self explainatory, but probably what we were talking about earlier,
having the anxiety of being in clubs. How often do
you get in the more you don't want to be
bothered every day every day? So I live here every

(30:02):
single day. I live here. Yeah, but when you go out,
you know that I'm Mary. Yeah. No, when I like,
I just have to be in a frame of mind,
like when I go to an award show, I'm like,
right today, like it's just happening, Like I'm not I'm
not going to get angry anxiety because this just has
to happen today I don't know if it just creeps
up on you and then it's just there the hat
load or signal to people that you don't want to
be bothered, that you letting them know, like, oh dude,

(30:24):
you see me out of my hadlaw. Well, that's what
I'm trying to say. Yeah, that's what I'm trying to say. Yeah,
that's good. That's a good signal, and that's like you should. Yeah,
but I don't really I don't really go out to
clubs anyway. I used to when you know, Cherry used
to live in New York, so I used to live
the Inner Apartment and we used to go out like
most most nights. But it was different then as well.
Shape of You brought me to a different level of fame.
Like I thought. I thought I was like at my peak,

(30:45):
and then suddenly it was like a completely different world.
It's the world of your Beyonce's and your jay Z's
and your Dell's and it's just to suddenly there's so
much interest. You know, how hard did to protect your energy?
I'm talking about you, your your mental world, being your
your mental speech. Well I found, I find, I find
I've been working on it for the past eight eight years,

(31:06):
and whether whether it be getting rid of a phone
and only answering emails like you know, twice a day,
or whether it's like cutting down my friendship group to
the bare, bare, bare minimum just so I trust everyone,
or whether it's living in the countryside in the middle
of nowhere and kind of closed off a bit from reality.
I think all of these little things are in place

(31:27):
to protect this. I think my mind and it's all working.
I think it's all working. I think if I lived
in central central London in less Less Square or Mayfair
or something like that, and then hanging out with people
that I'm not really sure whether they're friends with me
for who I am or who I am you know,
or you'll never you'll never know a death fields like again,

(31:50):
especially with the new people that are coming to your life.
You'll never know of there like you y like, yeah,
but I don't ever really let people. I like, I
like let people in from a from a let's like
hang out out place like that. You know, these these
boys have come to film now when we hung out
in the pub yesterday, like there's there's letting in and
there's there's letting in. You know, when you had that
conversation with Travis about their record. Did he understand where

(32:10):
he was coming from the hall? Yeah, because I think
he he has it and here we're talking about it.
I think he's very lucky with you know, the girl
that he's with. He says that, you know that they
have a similar thing where they just have their little
little circle, but he's with the biggest. Yeah. But I
don't know. I think in the world almost Yeah, but
I think they're all different on they they all want

(32:32):
different things. Um, yeah, I don't really know. I didn't
really know. But he he struck me as someone that
I had a lot of comment in common with. Basically,
you know, he doesn't He doesn't seem to me to
be the type of person that's chasing fame. I think
it's all it's all to better himself as an artist.
What's the next record? Next record is Beautiful People, Beautiful
People featuring a lad Well. Why could lead for this

(32:59):
particular regged you don't think he's a beautiful person? No,
he didn't know. I mean a couple of reasons. His
voice is so crisp and warm and soulful, but in
a very weird way. He's got he's got runs that
aren't soul runs. He's got runs that are more folk music.
Like he kind of he kind of he's a soul
singer who sings like a folk artist is It's a
very he sings in a very unique way. But that

(33:22):
song for me is warmth. It just feels cozy, and
that sounds weird to say. His voice is cozy as well,
but that was like my initial thing. He's definitely the
same as me. He doesn't really strike me as someone
who's glitz and glam. Well, how unhappy were you living
in early Miserable? I hated it. I hated it. Yeah,
I'm now like I like going to LA because I
go in for like three days and I see people

(33:44):
I love and then I'm gone. But it's the same everywhere.
Like I was miserable when I lived in New York
as well, because it's just I just have to be home.
It's like there's a book. There's a book that I
read called His Dark Materials, and it's about parallel worlds
and you basically there's this guy that has ane that
can cut into other worlds and his dad's discovered the
worlds before him, and his dad ended up dying because

(34:05):
he was away from his world for so long and
it justly drained him being in this other world. And
for me, it's like being in not just England, but
being in Suffolk just keeps my Even on tour, I'll
like come back here and I'll feel revitalized and just
I'm not I'm not American. I don't belong in America.
Just like you, living here, you'd probably get sad at

(34:25):
some point and be like, I need to go back
to Carolina, or I need to go back to Jack.
Get fair as hurl him in here between all the
beer and the fish and chips. I'm fair as fuck.
Was there ever a moment where you felt like you
were about to conform and become one of the beautiful people?
I definitely did, though, I definitely did for like, yeah,
for like six months, I was that was it. I
was in and I was hanging out with fucking people

(34:47):
that were on Disney shows once upon a time, and
we were like, you know, hanging out in backyards. Every day.
I'd meet someone new and I'd be like, oh, this
is so and so who was on this movie? And
then so and so who did this song? And just
I don't know you kind of you kind of get
sucked up in that world and there's always a different
event to go to. You go to one Oak, or
you go to fucking is it beatsy bellows, and there's
there's always something on and it's just that every single day,

(35:09):
every single day, and it just I just felt myself
getting a bit drained from it. Why are they hard
for people to be themselves in the industry? And does
the industry allowed it? Yes, it does, yeah, but you
have to have success being yourself. So it's quite easy
for me to be myself because I've been every every
step of the way, every time i'd be myself, I've
had success in it. But I think it's hard when
you've had a lot of success musically, maybe doing something
that you didn't leave in one hundred percent. You know,

(35:30):
sometimes the success that you find isn't actually you being yourself.
But also I think it's the fake it till you
make your attitude of if you let people think you're successful,
then you will eventually become successful, but you have to
really put that on. I think I just think being
yourself is so powerful and I feel like a beautiful
person without sounding weird about it, but because of it.

(35:51):
I have now a confidence in myself because because of
being myself, all of these great things have happened. So
now I can I can walk into it an awards
show addressed however I want, and be super confident about
it because it's like I've I've done what I because
to achieved without compromising. Imagine like when you were standing
next to Beyonce thege performing perfit great moment in Johannesburg.
If you if you're paying attention to what you should

(36:12):
actually be painting attile, which is just a talent, You're like, damn,
that was a great due. But then you go look
online everybody's clowning you because how you looked standing next
to her what you were wearing. Well, well, I know,
but I think the main argument was just men and
women's stands standards being held. The main thing was just like,
look at this, He's allowed to wear that and she
is allowed to wear that, when really what they should
have been saying is like they've both made a choice

(36:33):
to do this, like Beyonce and wear whatever the hell
she wants, and I can wear whatever the hell I want,
and that is because we've we've worked to be where
we are to be able to do that. I quite
I quite liked that. I found that quite quite funny
because it was it was ridiculous. You look at it
and you're like, yeah, actually that's pretty weird. And like
the skate company that I was wearing the T shirt
off were like really excited about it because it was

(36:53):
on every single blog in the world and they were
having people by the T shirt. They wanted to send
one to Beyonce, but I was like, I don't know
if she'd I always say this is the kids that
get meet. A lot of kids and their dads are like,
they're going through a tough time at school, and I'm like,
although it's like super tough. Now, that's the best thing
that can happen for you. If you fit in. You're

(37:14):
just boring, you know, you're just you're just one of
many people. If you're like there was this one kid
the other day and she was like proper out there,
proper quirky, and I was like, you're going to be
such an interesting adult and you're going to do such
an interesting job because you're you're allowed to be artistic
and don't let anyone fucking dim your light, like you
should always shine as as as bright as that. But

(37:34):
it's about instilling confidence in people. And I think me
having success, I can say to her, look, I was
really weird and I've managed to have success. So if
you just carry on doing you you're you're you're going
to have the same thing. Yeah, it's like wife been
in when you're born to stand out. Like That's why
I feel like all of us have our very own
unique DNA. They can't be duplicated. There's there's no one
in the world that can do what you do, but

(37:57):
there is someone in the world that's going to try
and they're going to fail because they should be doing
what they do best. Absolutely. So the next song is
I don't want your money with her? Fuck your money?
You really wash your time slicely Yeah, And I find
myself always always thinking like why I'm out on the

(38:17):
road as much as I am, and now I always
come back to the conclusion is because I love it.
But you know, there's there's some something has to give,
because you know, I'm starting starting a life with Cherry
and I'm not twenty anymore. I can't go on the
road for three years and not come home. Do you
have guilt? Because you're not around, no, because I think

(38:37):
I think that's I think that's unhealthy because I'm only
not around because I'm living my dream trying to achieve,
And I think it's unhealthy to feel guilty about wanting success.
But I definitely I feel like I'm missing out. I don't.
I think there's not so much guilt and that, but
I definitely feel like I'm missing out on a lot
of things. You know, But it wasn't just with when
I was with Cherry. It was like I missed like everything,

(39:00):
go one of my friend's birthday parties or events or
New Years or stuff stuff like that. So I feel
like parents getting older. Yeah, well, actually I mean saying
that like that my success has allowed them to slow down.
And you know, my dad doesn't work anymore and he
can come out and talk. I actually had more quality
time with my dad now because it's allowed that to happen.

(39:20):
At what point did you realize it wasn't about money,
it was about you know, your time? At what point
did you realize that sounds a bit ridiculous. But when
you discover something like a private jet and you're like,
I can buy another day with Cherry, I could I
can wait till tomorrow and fly home at five pm.
Or I can book a jet now and I can
fly home and I can gain an entire day. When

(39:42):
when I was like, money isn't the object, but time
it's you know, I'd rather I'd rather spend more time
with you than save more money. Basically, if other ethnic
because you need the money, yeah, you'd be able to
create those those opportunities, and that's quite you know, that's
a very sort of first world problem have. I will
always turn down every single offer for like New Year's

(40:03):
Eve gigs, just because like I'd rather spend it with
my family and friends. And it happened very early on
in my career because I never wanted for much, and
I've i achieved a level of success financially very early
on that I was happy with. So ever since then,
I can now can't be bought because I don't need it, Like,
but that isn't because I've now doing a stadium. So

(40:25):
that was like back then doing theaters, I was like, well,
I don't fucking earn by playing the songs I want
to play. Why would I need to be able to
be bought basically, And you said, you know, you go
on a road because you love going on the road. Yeah,
I really love it. So there ever a time where
you have to ask yourself, what do you love more?
Do I love going on the road or do I
love my wife? Um no, because again she she understands

(40:46):
and she comes out on the I mean she's got
an office job, so she doesn't come out as much
as she would like to. When you're so busy and
you're always doing a whole bunch of everything, sometimes it's
good to just sit down and do nothing, to watch
that movie for the hundredth of time, Like, yeah, watched
the War War again. I feel like I feel like
doing nothing makes me want to work hard again. So
that's why I feel like I need to do nothing,
because it reminds me that I do love working. Only

(41:09):
will get more compile kid than once we have kids. Yeah,
but I think I think kids are are different because instantly,
whenever I've spoken to parents, it's like your life ceases
to exist for you anymore. Your life is for your kids.
So I don't I don't think i'd have it any
problem sacrificing things that I enjoy for them. If it
was really like, you can't tour for the next ten years.

(41:29):
I'd be like, well, that's why I signed up for
I've had kids, so true, you know, you could you know,
there's lots of things that people have to stop when
they have kids. Why'd you pick her for that particular record?
Because I've really I really liked her album and became
a fan from her from there. When I found out
she was a fan of me, I then asked her
to be on this because you can't ever assume that
people just want to do records with you. What's the
next one? Well, we yet, well we yat thousand Nights

(41:52):
with Meek Mill and a Boogie. It is being off
for a thousand night to me touring. You know, I've
been on tour for I mean it's not technically a
thousand nights but almost like seven eight, eight hundred knights
on tour, so it's basically New York to London's different
city every day. That all become a blur, to become

(42:13):
redundant when you out there like that. It definitely did,
Like so I don't really remember to twenty fourteen, two
and fifteen, Yeah it does. It does all become a blur.
But then I now bring my best friends on tour.
So I've got four best friends out with me and
we enjoy it all together now, so it's not really
a blur because we remember going to nice dinners and
then we go out to nice things and then go
back to my hotel room and like, have a bottle

(42:35):
of wine. Why did you grab Meek An a bookie
for that record, because I don't think I don't think
they can relate yet to that level of touring. Well.
For me, originally, I had a different beata. I had
a different beat originally, and when I've made the beat,
it was and Meek actually said it when I played
it to me, he was like, you know my tempo,
and for me, it just sounded like a Meek song.
It just sounded like a Meek song. I always try

(42:56):
and go two verses. I always try and go for two,
like twenty four bars and it's done sixteen butters, and
it just seems too short. And I just thought a
hoodie season and I thought I'd reach out to him.
What's the next record? The next record is put It
puts It All on Me with Lame You like this one?
I like their torn yeah you front when you say

(43:19):
it's hard to make records about love. Bro, that's another
love record right there. And I've made so many records
though for this project, so many, Like obviously now you're
hearing the end products and you're like, oh, like it
must be easy to write love songs. But I'd write
so many songs and then I just picked the best ones,
so then they end up being the good ones, the
good the good love songs. But there, I like the

(43:40):
Up Temple Love record all, like everything don't have to
be thinking out loud. I'm I'm meThe Man and Mary J. Blige.
All I need remix. That's what me and my wife
dance to it all wdding you know what I'm saying.
That's what's good to have those Up Temple Love records.
Why you why DoD you choose Lam for that one? Well,
I like the rest of the world. Herd boot up
And then I found out she's from Mitchell in London,

(44:00):
which blew my mind because I just didn't know she
because like, it's so it's so rare, one for English
people to have success in America, but two for people
to have English people to have success in America before England.
She's big there before, but before here, So I was
intrigued by her anyway, but someone I knew had to
contact for her. So when when we were making that song,
I remember we were saying, what girl, what girl? Do

(44:22):
we know that we could we could go on this,
and me and Fred, who made the tune, were both like,
we should get Lama and I was like, I know
someone that knows her. So we had that wrapped up
I think like within two days, because usually you do
the song and then you have to get in touch
with the artist and then it's finding a day to
do a studio. We sent it off to Lma the
day that we wrote it, and then I think she'd
recorded her bits two days later. I don't even know

(44:42):
she was from the UK till I heard her album, Yeah,
because in between she's talking and you hear the accident yea,
So I was like, oh, she's from the UK. I
an't even realize it. Yeah, and she's she's super sweet,
but I just didn't expect her to be English. She's
got the same the same kind of thing that I
was saying about Kalidas. There's a way that she sings
and the riffs that she she she does she'll go

(45:04):
hard and soft and hard and soft in her vocal tones.
It's a kind of operatic, kind of a sort. I
don't know if she's classically trained or not, but it's
a very different way of singing. When you do a
collad with somebody like Alameda, you feel the need to
even in the future, can still leave say hey, I
wrote this for you just to keep the London thing up. Yeah,

(45:26):
I don't. I mean, like as I said yesterday, I
mean like it depends on timings and stuff. But if
anyone gave me their time to work on this, like
I'm whether whether it just be any small favor in
the future, I'm I'm always I'm always going to be
there to do to do something or after this record,
I'm going to go away for a bit. So I
don't think we're going to be releasing anything like that.

(45:47):
But yeah, I just really appreciate that people are giving
me the time. You know. So this is feels with
Young Thug and Jay Hussy. You're not doing these records
because you know of who's hat. You're doing these records
because you actually like these people. So what what did
you like about a Young Dog? I mean, I felt

(46:08):
I first heard him when he did the Rich Gang
did a lot of shit, just a live stuff, and
I didn't I didn't really get it. And then it
was more I think it was that that that Jeffrey
project that really made me understand it. And he's got
he's got a tone that is sometimes you don't understand
what he's saying, but it kind of like the way

(46:29):
that he does it is just musical. Yeah, So I
was always very intrigued to work with him. House is
someone I've always wanted to work with. There's not really
anyone like him in the UK industry, so in his
own lane. The worst thing I find is when you
have latantly like label things where it is just they
leave like a sixteen at the end and it's the worst. Yeah,

(46:49):
And I never wanted to do that with House. I
feel like, if you're going to do a song with House,
it needs to fit in. I got his number and
then my face timing. But usually every single person I've
worked with, I've never not some sort of relationship with
with with with them, So I hope I get to
meet singles. I would think that's a difficult record to

(47:12):
write because that's about heartbreak. Yeah, like you would love
That was written from imagining what it would like now.
Now it's all scenarios rather rather than like things that
have actually happened in terms of like writing writing breakup songs.
And I need you to dismiss those negative thoughts out
in mine. Okay, I'm gonna tell you a person, like,
whatever I want to happen, I constantly think about things

(47:33):
I don't want to happen. I don't think about it
at all. Are same. I know that my job is
writing songs, So sometimes you just have to write songs,
you know, Like people who write murder mystery books don't
want to get murdered in their sleep. They're just they
write books about murder. So that's not necessarily about you. No, No,
that's that's like if it were to happen, that would
be my reaction, and it's for whoever needs it, because

(47:56):
somebody out there probably going through that. There's so many
people that make songs that aren't necessarily reflecting the situation
that they're in at that time. Oh, trust me, but
we've all but we've all felt that. Yeah. I listened
to a lot of hip hop. Okay, there's a lot
of people saying some things that they are not really living. Yes,
I get it. Well, it's rebably tallen on the road.
Screw X, I mean i've I've I've worked with him before.

(48:19):
We actually have a great fucking story about screw X.
He came to Chicago to work on track. Afterwards he
was like, let's go out to the bar. So just
me and him and my touring crew went when out
of this bar and he was like, fuck, man, this
this bar sucks. Like the music, like the music is
just not It was like they were I don't know
what was happening, and he was just like, I got

(48:40):
my laptop in my back, Shu, I just do a set.
They were like okay, And so Screwlex got up in
this like bar in the middle of nowhere in Chicago
and just did a three hour set for anyone in
the bar. And they just locked the doors and just
kept every running. It was amazing. How did you know

(49:02):
Dave was gonna be good for this record? Because everything
I've heard from Dame that you let me here because
you put me on a name, it was like deep. Well,
I gave him, I gave him a deep song. I
gave him the choice to two get because I really
really wants to get him on the project. So I
did two songs and he chose that one. But I think,
you know, he's I think it's good to have him
on something a little bit different because he does a
lot of deep stuff for his stuff, yakul Amory no

(49:24):
more than just music store. Right. Yeah, we did a
love Music Hate Racism interview. I like that whole concept
of the love love music heat reef. You know, with
both from two totally different parts of England and from
totally different backgrounds and coming together and just talking. It's
good to show how it can be completely normal. Yeah,
I met him. There's an awarch over here called the

(49:47):
Ivan Novellos and they have like three main awards, like
there's best Song, most Played Song, and then Songwriter of
the Year and that's and and that's it. And he
I won a song Likeright the Year and he won
Best Song and the they're like really difficult with it.
There's only like three of them. Yeah, they're really difficult
to win. So I met I met him there and
we kind of swapped emails and we've just been back

(50:08):
and forth. I kind of like talking to I say,
up and coming people, but I love I love the
kind of new wave coming through and it was one
of those things that I'm putting the projects together. It
would just feel like a bit of a shame not
to have him on it, so I'm glad we could
make it work. The other artist is a guy from
Argentina that I've recently become a fan of called Paolo
Longer we got him on, really like him. Listen Man

(50:29):
number six, Thank you for having me. Rong, nice one.