October 1, 2025 • 38 mins
How is AI reshaping recruitment in New Zealand, and what must candidates do to stand out in a crowded digital job market?
This week’s episode of The Business of Tech answers those questions with insights from Kara Smith, New Zealand country manager for global recruitment agency Talent, and Jack Jorgensen, head of data and AI at Talent’s sister company Avec.
Stiff economic headwinds and rapidly changing skills requirements, driven in no small part by the adoption of AI across industries, have made recruitment in 2025 fundamentally different.
“Application rates have been on the increase for about eighteen months now and continue to climb every month,” warns Smith.
“Our clients are just absolutely swamped with applications,” she said.
To cut through that noise, AI-powered applicant tracking systems (ATS) have become essential for recruiters. But Smith and Jorgensen say AI is a very imperfect tool for identifying the right recruits and that jobseekers should revert to old-fashioned networking and self-promotion to stand out.
“Don’t just rely on job boards. Think about your network, your personal brand, and proactive referrals," Smith advises. "Upskill in what matters now, especially AI and the so-called soft skills like team leadership and communication.”
Tune in to The Business of Tech, powered by 2degrees, for the full conversation and practical strategies to future-proof your career in the era of algorithmic hiring. Streaming on iHeartRadio and wherever you get your podcasts.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
Welcome to the Business of Tech powered by two Degrees Business.
I'm Peter Griffin, and this week I'm delving into the
future of work, or more precisely, the future of your
efforts to get a job, because AI is changing the
hiring landscape quicker than you probably think. If you've ever
wondered about how algorithms are re shaping who gets noticed
(00:25):
in the pile of cvs, or what employers are looking
for and recruits in the era of AI, you'll want
to keep listening. I'm joined on a business of tech
this week by Kara Smith, managing director al tauroa for
the global recruitment giant Talent, and Jack Jorgensen, general Manager Data,
AI and Innovation at AVOC, the talent owned tech company
(00:50):
sort of their sister company that does all the tech
underpinning their HR and recruitment efforts. Kara told me that
applications are coming into Talent in record numbers at the moment.
It's a soft market, so any decent position is attracting
huge interest across the recruitment industry. AI is scanning mountains
(01:11):
of applications and filtering candidates before a human ever looks
at them. So what does that mean for companies trying
to find real talent amidst the noise? More importantly, what
can job seekers actually do to stand out from the
crowd of algorithm optimized cvs. Kara and Jack breakdown why
(01:32):
it's no longer enough to just hit apply and why
personal branding and proactive networking matter more than ever whether
you're hiring, hustling, or just hoping to keep your career
future proof. Stick around for some really useful advice. Here's
the interview with Carra Smith and Jack Jordansen. Cara and Jack,
(01:55):
Welcome to the Business of Tech.
Speaker 2 (01:57):
How are you doing? Very good? Thank you whatever, very good,
good morning.
Speaker 1 (02:01):
Yeah, you're an Australia Jack coming in from Melbourne, so
thanks for taking the time. Now you're from Avoc, which
is a sister company to Talent, the big recruitment company.
Speaker 3 (02:12):
Yeah that's right. Yeah, we work with Talent on project
delivery right.
Speaker 1 (02:15):
Okay, So we're going to get into some of the
technical aspects of recruitment and the buzzword at the moment,
it really is around artificial intelligence and the impact that
is having. But Cara, it would be great for you
to give us an overview. You've been at Talent well
over a decade now in the recruitment game for at
least a couple of decades. Keen to get your perspective
(02:38):
on what is going on out there at the moment
in the New Zealand market. It has been a tough,
tough year, but you're seeing more applications than ever before.
And this is what we're sort of hearing as well
at Business Desk is that any half decent job that
goes up is just mobbed with people. So there's a
(02:59):
lot of people, you know, two hundred people sometimes applying
from mid grade communications manager role, which is I've just
never seen before. A lot of my friends who have
been made redundant from journalism are finding themselves you're really
missing out on jobs that maybe five years ago they
would have got. So can you get your perspective on
(03:19):
what's happening with applications and the amounts of decent jobs
that are out there and how candidates are sort of
navigating this at the moment.
Speaker 4 (03:28):
Well, firstly from a market perspective, you know, I think
we all went away at Christmas and we're like, you know,
we're going to come back in January and the market's
going to have magically rebounded, and.
Speaker 2 (03:40):
Obviously that never happened.
Speaker 4 (03:42):
And look, I'm getting to a point and I believe
a lot of our clients are getting to a point
where I don't think that's going to happen. I think
we need to accept that within reason, this is now
our new normal. And therefore, what does that mean for
candidates who are looking for jobs?
Speaker 2 (03:59):
So you are.
Speaker 4 (04:00):
Application rates have been on the increase for about actually
eighteen months now and continue to climb every month. And anecdotally,
you know, our clients are just absolutely swamped with applications,
as are we as well. So what that does is
it creates I think it creates two things.
Speaker 2 (04:19):
One, it creates an incredible amount of noise in.
Speaker 4 (04:21):
The market, and I think secondly, it creates a false
perception that there are lots of fantastically skilled and suitable
candidates for the role that you are advertising and recruiting for.
And I don't really think that's the case. It's noise.
There might be gems within that noise, but we're not
(04:41):
in a hugely candidate rich market at the highly skilled area.
And when you add the complexity on top of that
that obviously from an AI and automation overall digital transformation perspective.
Speaker 2 (04:56):
The skill sets that are needed are really grown very
very fast.
Speaker 4 (05:01):
That's changing, right, and people quite simply just don't necessarily
have all those skills yet because we haven't been involved
in those types of projects yet. So your overall question
was what how are candidates? How are they navigating that? Look,
I think I still talk to candidates that are overly
reliant on job boards, They are overly reliant on applying
(05:24):
for a job, and they just leave it at that,
and that is just not going to be successful. They
must use a multi pronged approach. For a market as
small as I'm coming to you from Tamakimkodo, Auckland. So
for a market as small as Auckland, for a market
as small as New Zealand, your personal brand right now
is absolutely everything. Because if a hiring manager opens up
(05:45):
their their inbox or their ATS and says sees five
hundred cvs whether it's right or wrong, They're going to
naturally go who do I know and hear or what
partner can I partner with that knows someone that can
point me to so the right people or the people
they think are right, they might not be right. I
guess that's an important part rather than just dealing with
(06:07):
all of us noise.
Speaker 1 (06:08):
And look, talent does quite a bit of recruitment in
the tech related space, a lot of contract roles, particularly
with Microsoft, HP and the like, you recruit for those
technology stacks. What are you seeing specifically around tech recruitment?
What we're sort of hearing overseas is really the tech
industry is eating its own dog food when it comes
(06:29):
to artificial intelligence and seeing big efficiencies there in software
development and the like, and that is definitely leading to
job losses but also slower recruitment as well. As we've
always had quite a tight market when it comes to
tech talent in New Zealand. It's hard to get really
good people and we've leaned on immigration to get the
(06:49):
people we need. What are you seeing at the moment
specifically in tech.
Speaker 4 (06:52):
Specifically for tech, We're seeing a growing need of what
I would say the skills around what's going to be
happening is happening with in certain AI initiative, So that
could be solutions, architecture, that could be data, that could
be governance, that could be people who have advised pilot programs,
you know, successfully before into scaling implementations. We're seeing a
(07:16):
need for leaders who are change agents. We're seeing quite
a lot of reorgit that leadership layer as well. And
from a software development perspective, yes, we are kind of
seeing a bit of a what I would almost call
like a sinking lid recruitment policy. That the new normal
or the new desired future state is that people will
(07:37):
have leaner teams and you will have software development teams
who are far more productive due to you know, advances
in certain AI tools, et cetera. And so from again
going back to the perspective for the candidate, the candidate
themselves really need to be investing in do you have
do you understand how to utilize those tools to make
(07:59):
yourself more productive?
Speaker 2 (08:01):
And does that change?
Speaker 4 (08:02):
And I think it is changing the nature of So
then what does a really good tech candidate do If
ultimately you're using tools to do the more commoditized tasks, well,
then your real strength is in creativity, problem solving, change management,
stakeholder management. And I think that actually is the bigger
(08:24):
is the bigger change and is going to be the
bigger pressure in the market.
Speaker 2 (08:28):
In order to develop those skills.
Speaker 1 (08:29):
AI is changing every industry. The AI Forum's latest survey
of businesses found the number of businesses that said they'd
let staff go as a result of AI had double.
It's still small, about fourteen percent, but it's also saying
it's opening opportunities for existing staff, which goes to your
point that the skill set is changing and you need
(08:51):
to be ready for that. Jack from your point of view,
you know these Karen mentioned these ATS's applicant tracking system
which probably fill candidates with drid, you know as they
tried to get through with their application and actually get
in front of someone. What are these systems and how
widely used are they now? Buy big recruiters, Every.
Speaker 3 (09:13):
Big recruit is using it. You've got you know, in
the New Zealand market, you know, five hundred applicants going
for one posting, straining market, it could be thousands of
applicants going for a job posting. And if you're not
using a system to try to clear through that volume,
then you would have to have you know, thousands of
people reviewing CBS for a job posting. So these ATS systems,
(09:36):
as a gross simplification of what they do is that
they will collect and store applicant information pase that information
to look for keywords, and then they score that applicant
against the job posting. They then help manage that candidate
through the progression of the hiring pipeline, you know, scheduling, interviews,
rejection notices. It's a centralized system to manage that component.
(10:00):
The end, the recruiting firm will have time to hierometrics
the source of hiometrics cost per hiometrics. I think it's
important for candidates to understand that they are being put
into these systems because from a sheer volume perspective, it
just has to be done. Having a CV or a
resume that is optimized for those is definitely going to
(10:21):
help bring your chances up to the top of the pack. However,
there are obviously some caveats and some ethics concerns that
kind of play into that as well.
Speaker 1 (10:31):
Yeah, so the sorts of things these ATIS systems are
looking for. Keywords are a key one, so looking for
common section headings, formats, things like that, and then you've
got optical character recognition. If someone sends into maybe a
PDF for something with information and even images and there,
the systems can extract that and look at it, and
(10:52):
then you've got artificial intelligence there as well, extracting information
inferring meaning from the context. In that I guess that's
the really interesting one. How well that AI is at
among five hundred cvs going, Ah, this person has the
hard skills, but also the soft skills that are really
going to suit this role.
Speaker 3 (11:13):
Yeah, I think it's still got a long way to
go in regards to identifying those soft skills, especially so
as if I was to look at hiring a candidate
or going and putting a CV through myself, I'm not
there to focus on the skills that I actually have. Now,
I'm there to optimize my CV for a system. So
it's more about how do I optimize my ranking as
(11:37):
opposed to how do I showcase who I am as
an individual? And what that does is those systems are
going to start overlooking, you know, potential in candidates, because
AI can't identify potential in a human being unconventional candidates,
so any transferable skills unique non traditional candidates. You know,
if we look at your journalistic colleagues that you mentioning
(11:59):
before missing out of jobs that they would have normally
gotten in the past. You know, these systems, you know
someone may have mentioned two or three things more than them,
or they've missed a single keyword on their CV which
has de ranked them significantly. But they might be really
really good for the job anyway. And AI I don't
believe is going to make any major leaps and bounds
(12:20):
in this regard in the near future, because even though
you do have video analysis that's looking at para language
analysis in videos, which obviously rides a very fine ethical
line for biometric data collection, it's still not going to
be anywhere near as good as a recruiter who knows
(12:41):
the candidates, who understands the people, who understands your organization
and what the culture is there and what they need
as a business, and finding the right balance of the
technical or the hard skill sets that are required for
that role, but also the person and the mentality behind
what that organization needs.
Speaker 1 (13:08):
The logical thing for me, I think, faced with this,
God forbid, I have to go out there into the
workforce in a soft market at the moment, but I
would probably go to chat GPT to write my CV
for me and prompt it to create a CV and
a cover letter that is going to be optimized for
putting my best foot forward. Are candidates doing that, and
(13:30):
are you seeing that you starting to see the same
sort of tropes and style emerging in cvs and cover letters.
Speaker 2 (13:38):
Yes and no, but it's definitely growing.
Speaker 4 (13:40):
I think what concerns me, and I talk to clients
about this all the time, is if everyone starts doing that.
I get why we're doing that, because we're trying to
hit the matches and we're trying to be higher ranked
in an ATS or a job board or maybe even
a hiring managers taking fifteen cvs they've received from their
recruitment partner and they're going, hey, I'm going to chuck
(14:02):
this into my co pilot or something similar, and who
would you recommend that I interview. I have no doubt
all of these things are happening because quite simply, people
are playing with the tools and they're low on time.
Speaker 2 (14:12):
So what worries me.
Speaker 4 (14:14):
Is just the the uniformity that starts to that starts
to happen. And so I have to bring it back
to a point that I made before that a candidate
must take you know, I guess the bull by the
horns more. They must have a multi pronged approach. They
must be thinking about their network, they must be thinking
about their personal brand. They must be thinking about can
(14:34):
I can I get an internal referral at that organization
as well? You know, so that there it's it can't
if I think of it just solely relies on their CV.
And if that then becomes solely relying on word matching,
whether that's after you've engaged with the recruiter or before
you've engaged with a recruiter, that that to me is
(14:57):
a concern. So you've got to really think about what
are the things that in your control. Another thing I
would say, and this might sound a bit funny, when
we you know, say, you know, spell check your resume
and grammar check everything. I'm starting to almost like the
odd grammar, the old grammar mistake. And my parents are
teachers and they've drilled the stuff into me my whole life.
But you know what, because then you know it's authentic.
(15:18):
Then you know it's it's like that's a human being
that's written that, and they've made a little mistake. Well,
you know, mistakes are human and we kind of want
those humans. And then the other thing I would say
more to a client is if you're if you are
taking cvs and putting it into some kind of ranking system,
and if you're only working from that judgment, then you know,
(15:41):
tell me the last time you hired someone that was
a ten out of ten and hung around a long time,
was actually engaged, actually learned a lot. It's not going
to be the case. We know when we take a
new role, if we've got that edge, if we've got
that gap, if we have to learn something, we know,
we're more engaged in the hiring manager to gets more
out of that candidate as well. So that's the part
(16:03):
about potential, that's the part about the full picture, and
an ATS is not going to be able to give
that to you.
Speaker 1 (16:08):
Yeah, so the human in the loop is really important.
And so what does it look like now for one
of your typical agents, you know, potentially looking at for
great candidates for it contracting roles for instance. So they're
getting hundreds of applicants. So is the system sort of
creating a shortlist based on rankings, based on all the
(16:29):
things we've been talking about, some of those keywords, some
of the AI inference, and then they're wading through a
short list of candidates.
Speaker 4 (16:36):
Only if and I'm answering from a talent perspective, now,
only if we needed to go to that stage.
Speaker 2 (16:44):
I would call that an escalated search.
Speaker 4 (16:46):
So going back to the fact that over the last quarter,
eighty two percent of all of our successful placements have
not included a job board ashole, and that's because we
every single time a role comes in, we're going to
our networks, to the collect actives networks as well. Every
contract role that comes into the Talent New Zealand business,
we raise it and we go, hey, who do you know?
(17:07):
So that networking is so so important. We then go
to all of our talent pools, to the people that
have contracted with us before, et cetera. And most of
the time I would hesitate to say two thirds of
the time we.
Speaker 2 (17:23):
Can have a short list from that poll.
Speaker 4 (17:26):
Only then would we need to go outside of that,
and that might be for your new your niche skills,
you're more in demand skills, et cetera. And then it's
probably more direct headhunting. Again, another thing we've actually started
doing because again we're trying to fight through that noise
and fundamentally give our clients more confidence that they can
(17:47):
move on this candidate. It's a real person that we've
worked with before, et ceteras. We're actually taking reference checks
up front, so we're now going we need more information
to give to our clients to say you have done
a project like that before that you've you know, what
are your strengths to paint the candidate as a human
being with real strengths and real potential. That's fundamentally what
(18:10):
we're doing right now and with seeing some really good
things from it.
Speaker 1 (18:13):
So do you recommend that people who are looking for
jobs actually go approach recruitment agencies or companies directly and
just say, look, I'm on the lookout for work. I
think some people actually go to talent agencies and register
themselves with them, so you know, contractors and they likes
so that you're on their radar. Is that something that
(18:35):
people should definitely in this environment be doing, actually reaching
out proactively, even if they don't they're not looking for
job today but maybe in the near future.
Speaker 4 (18:43):
Certainly so I would, And this is where I would
be using the likes of chat GPT for I would
be going, you know, these are my key strengths, these
are the types of opportunities I'm looking in for. What
recruitment agencies are specialists in that? So if it's in
New Zealand talent specialists, tech and transformation recruitment, and then
going proactively going to that organization and saying, hey, keen
(19:06):
to pop into your office, keen to you know, shout
you a cup of coffee. This is the magic of
New Zealand right where we're so close and we're we're
this kind of community. So you have to use it
to your advantage. Really keen to talk to you proactively
around the types of opportunities I'm interested in, you know,
by strength some of my successful projects, et cetera, and
learn about what you're seeing in the market. I would
(19:27):
be trying to do everything a little bit in advance
because often when we are engaging, well not often every
time when we are, when we do receive a role
from a hiring manager, we have to move at speed.
So that's why we don't always put up an AD
because it slows us down. We have to know the
(19:47):
people already and we invest a lot of time at
talent meeting, you know, candidates ahead of the curve.
Speaker 1 (19:54):
Traditionally, the good thing about applying to a job a
job AD is it sort of seemed on the outside
anyway like it was going to be a merit based decision.
The recruiters would look at a group of people and
people they didn't know or expect to apply for this job,
and everyone got a fair crack at it. I think
a lot of people would feel a little bit dirty,
really sort of trying to make approaches over DMS on
(20:18):
LinkedIn or whatever. But that's the reality of it. You've
got to have this multi prong approach. But Jack from
your point of view, with AI now in the loop
looking at some of these applications, I guess the real
concern for a talent agency for a company is if
the system shows bias against someone you know. There have
been some high profile cases as a chap in the US.
(20:41):
Derek Mobley, he was an IT guy in North Carolina.
He applied for over one hundred jobs, didn't get anything,
applied to work Day a software company, and got rejected.
Man of color with a disability, and he suspected that
the system was flagging him as not appropriate. He took
that to court. It's ongoing. I think there have been
(21:02):
a number of high profile cases like this where people
are going I'm getting nowhere and I'm getting eliminated at
an early stage. So how do you deal with that
from a bias point of view, making sure that you're
not the system is not eliminating people who may be
really good but on the surface don't seem appropriate.
Speaker 3 (21:21):
If I had an answer to that question, I think
I'd be in a different job. So yeah, I mean,
you're absolutely right. One of the biggest challenges in that
is the large language model, specifically so your chat GPT
style AI is really opaque in its decision making and
so challenging that AI's decision to understand why a particular
candidate was rejected is near on impossible. At the moment,
(21:44):
there are tools that are being developed to actually understand
the chain of thought in a bit of a deeper way.
We would have seen in older AIS before the kind
of transformer AI model started coming out in twenty seventeen,
those decision trees were very static. But with large language models,
it is very, very opaque. From a bias perspective, AI
(22:06):
doesn't eliminate bias, it almost codifies it. And so if
we're looking at the historical data that that AI model
has been trained on, and then for a company who
is predominantly hired people from let's say MIT, then it's
going to prioritize those traits and in turn amplify the
(22:26):
bias within the system. It's kind of like an echo
effect where it's you know, this person's from MIT, so
they get boosted and they get the next person gets
boosted because of that. So pulling the bias out of
those models and getting them to be a lot more
down the middle is a really really big challenge. But
on top of that, if you do get it down
the middle, then it's going to promote down the middle candidates.
(22:49):
That doesn't necessarily mean it's going to be the best
fit for your role, for what your organization needs. And
so I think that there's really two things to consider.
First is that AI is fantastic as a use case
to pull the wheat from the chaff. So if you've
got people who've never worked in that industry before, you
know they've had a role that's in supply chain and
(23:12):
now they're going for a finance director, you know they
might not have the skill sets to complement that role,
and AI can quite quickly remove those candidates from the pool.
But then you do really need someone with experience and
an understanding of your organization and an understanding of those
candidates to ensure that that bias doesn't, you know, move
beyond that initial culling and allow those candidates to progress successfully.
Speaker 1 (23:41):
Do you envisage JACK the future of recruitment where it's
sort of like almost a fully automated process from job
posting to application to sort of onboarding, where a lot
of that is effectively AI augmented, but you know, a
lot of it is very automated.
Speaker 3 (24:00):
I mean, there are definitely roles where that is applicable.
There are definitely sections of the market where I think
that that's definitely a use case to support that narrative.
For example, entry level positions. You know, in Australia specifically, traditionally,
as I was growing up, everybody worked in either a
department store or at in fast food as the kind
(24:23):
of their first jobs, and I think those roles are
perfect for that kind of automated process once you start
getting into the more I guess career centric job positions.
I don't believe that AI has a part to play
in the entire process. However, it's definitely got benefits along
the journey of higher to actually placing that candidate.
Speaker 1 (24:47):
I've heard a bit about I haven't seen an example
of it, but sort of pre screening interviews that are
done with AI. So it may not even be a
recruiter on the call, but someone will be as to
log onto a platform as answer a series of questions
and in the AI analyzes their responses. Is that something
that's becoming more common in the industry?
Speaker 3 (25:09):
It is, so what they're looking at there is typically
the is the candidate baseline applicable for that, asking them
kind of general questions about you know, who they are,
are they a citizen? Are they legally allowed to work?
They're also looking at para language, so how the candidate
speaks their intonation. It's not just you know, text on
(25:32):
a page. Then it's it's you know, are they're confident
in how they're talking, which I think rides a pretty
fine line around kind of ethics and the use of
biometric data in that regard. There's also a bit of
retric yet to see any actual numbers on it, but
there is retric to say that it is used for
screening out candidates in ways that allows certain organizations to
(25:57):
be more discriminatory. So as an example, if they're you know,
they may not they may need someone who can speak
English at a very very high level, and they're using
that video platform to help remove candidates from there. Personally,
I've gone through an interview process many years ago where
they use this technology. They wanted me to do an
(26:17):
interview like that, and I flat refused. In my opinion,
if I'm interviewing for your organization, interviewing for a role,
and I'm giving you that respect, I would expect the
same respect in return that I would like to speak
to a human being. Because I'm while I'm being interviewed
to see if I'm the right fit for your organization,
I also want to interview the organization to make sure
(26:38):
that it's the right fit for me.
Speaker 1 (26:39):
But what do you do, Cara, when you're applying for
a job and these processes are built into the system
and you're uncomfortable about it, it's sort of hard to
go around them. As maybe even inappropriate to try and
go around them.
Speaker 4 (26:53):
I think that's a values question for the individual, and
whatever the answer is, I would respect it fundamentally if
you don't to engage in a certain process, whether you
know and that you know, just just recently our clients
are doing more face to face interviews again, and you know,
and you know COVID, and immediately post COVID that was
more online. So even that change, which is kind of
(27:16):
a more traditional change, even that change, we had candidates say,
you know, I don't really see the need to go
into the organization, you know, I would prefer to do
this online, et cetera. So there's always changes and processes
and it's up to the candidate to engage or not.
I did want to go back back a step if
I if I could, because I picked up on your
(27:36):
point around when you said that you think you had
a really fair shot. You know, there's an ad, you
respond to the ad.
Speaker 2 (27:44):
You hope that.
Speaker 4 (27:45):
Everyone had been verified and looked at equally and fairly.
And I think a really important part for candidates to
remember whether it is fair or not, is that at
the point that you're in aging with a recruitment consultant,
it's often an engagement that is non exclusive, and so
(28:06):
by the nature of that, there's an element of speed
and effectiveness that needs to take place. So I would
just it's just the realities of that. However, I will
say we are working a lot more with clients who
are asking us to canvas exclusively, and often we're being
retained in this manner, canvas could be multi region. Say,
(28:31):
for example, we want you to look in both markets.
We're going to utilize you as our exclusive partner. We're
going to give you two weeks to run this process.
We want you to provide us with a balance shortlist.
We would love to see you know, Wahan, their Malori, Pacifica,
you know, perhaps it's neurodiverse candidates as well. We'd love
to see a longer and more balance shortlist. And so
(28:54):
we need to see more leadership like that from our
clients as well, to say we're not going to have
you go for a race for for eight hours. We're
going to partner with you early. We're going to provide
you with the full picture, and we're going to enable
you to go out and run that process. And when
we are working in that manner, we are having a
talent incredibly successful results for the client. So that's just
(29:14):
another thing to keep in mind as well.
Speaker 1 (29:16):
So whether people like it or not, really you sort
of have to be algorithm friendly in terms of the
information you're assembling for recruitment companies or employers to look at.
Speaker 2 (29:28):
Jack.
Speaker 1 (29:28):
Do you think you know ultimately we're all going to
have to sort of curate our own data sets that
fits those requirements, everything from how we design our LinkedIn
pages to our websites. You know, like ten twenty years ago,
it was all when you were trying to get your
website noticed. It was all about search engine optimization. You
(29:49):
had to be algorithm friendly when you designed your website. Essentially,
we are having to do that now for how we
represent ourselves to potential employers.
Speaker 3 (29:59):
Yeah, and if I wind back the clock to the
let's say the nineteen seventies and you went in for
a prospective job, you would dress nicely, make sure that
you had a haircut, and you're presenting yourself as the
best possible self that you can be for that interview
and for that engagement. I think that that's just changed
over the years into a CV cover letter style presentation.
(30:25):
Then LinkedIn came through, and now we're into a different
space of curating your image. It's just shifted from a
physical space into a more digital one. So you absolutely
do need to be curating your online presence and profile,
specifically for the future and for roles that you want
in five to ten years time. The data that's being
(30:46):
harvested now is going to be on the books for
quite a long time. And so if you've got social
media presence that's not conducive to who you want to
be in ten years, you may want to clean that
up so that it's not coming back to or a
recruiter in ten or fifteen years and they're looking at
it going so you said this, but yeah, absolutely, curating
(31:07):
your profile, curating who you are and who your presence is.
But I think it's very important not to overcurate the
point where it's not authentic to who you are and
to your own capability, because then you're selling something that
is completely misleading. And you know, while we can look
(31:28):
at it and say, well, you know, companies and organizations
shouldn't be using AI to do this process, you know,
in the same token, we should also say the candidates
shouldn't be using AI. However, when push comes to shove,
it's going to happen in both directions. It's about, you know,
do I make myself as ethical as I can be online?
Do I make it, you know, present who I am
and get hired for what I can present to the world,
(31:52):
versus providing some artificially inflated capability statement which in three
to six months is going to turn out to completely
in your image, especially in the market the size of
New Zealand, where word we'll get around quickly.
Speaker 1 (32:04):
And as always I've having hired a few people myself,
there's always the you know, what is different, the different
approach someone's taken, and which is quite refreshing in a
sea of sort of templated cvs you see on LinkedIn,
a lot of people in the tech sector are going
posting their CV. This is the CV that got me
jobs at Google, Uber and Amazon, and they're usually the
(32:27):
most basic. One page is so it seems you know
all the strategies you can do in that. What what
really appeals to people is just give me the basics,
state it plainly, don't try and dress it up too much.
Is that what you feel, Caro, when you're looking at
a pile of cvs, Give it to me simply. You
sell yourself on a page.
Speaker 4 (32:47):
Yes, And you know, going back to one of the
first things I said, hiring managers and recruitment companies and
large organized talent acquisition teams and organizations are just dealing
with so much information and so much noise. The more succinct,
the more precise and correct. Go to Jack's point as well,
don't say things that aren't real because it will be
(33:08):
found out at some point throughout the process. The better,
whether that's one, two, three pages, you know, you know,
it's kind of arguably up for the candidate, but it
must be specific.
Speaker 1 (33:19):
And just finally, going back to what you were saying
at the start, that the types of projects you're recruiting
for are slightly different now and that's the influence of
artificial intelligence. And we've been told, you know, the mundane,
the manual, the repetitive is going to disappear increasingly. So
your skill set needs to be the soft skills around
working with others, collaborating, overseeing the AI agent. Things like
(33:43):
quality assessments and assurance are really important. So in terms
of how you navigate this job market dynamic that is changing,
what should I do as a mid forties guy who's
been a wordsmith my entire life, but AI is coming
for that industry. Should I be going out and doing
free courses from MIT and that around prompt engineering and
(34:06):
so showing that I have some interest in upskilling in AI.
Or should I be doing soft skill type skill development,
doing team leading and that sort of thing, what do
you need to have on your CV for the algorithm
to go? This person is thinking about the future.
Speaker 4 (34:22):
I think in the short term people definitely need to
be taking responsibility of upskilling themselves about AI a one
hundred percent. I'm currently doing micro credential right now in
Disruptive Technology focused on AI with Francis Valentine at Academy
X and speaking of you know, journalists there are and
the creative industry in general. There are a significant amount
(34:44):
of adult students around the forty to fifty year age
from the film commission partaking in this cohort. So that
is incredibly important that everyone takes responsibility for that, and
then in parallel, yes, really thinking about how does that
augment your work now so that you can do more
(35:06):
of those human lead things. So as an example, at Talent,
we're currently kicking off a pilot, you know, looking at
some different LMS for the executive team. I've created a
baseline for myself to go, this is how much time
I spend with my team now and really, you know,
in really important conversations, this is how much time I
(35:26):
spend with clients right now.
Speaker 2 (35:28):
I'm wanting to now get better at using you.
Speaker 4 (35:31):
Know, these productivity tools etc. So that I can spend
more time in front of clients with my team and
basically having more impact than before.
Speaker 1 (35:40):
Well, lots of good tips there and some great insights
into what's going on in the New Zealand market. Caras,
so thanks so much, Thanks so much, Jack for coming
on the Business of Tech.
Speaker 2 (35:50):
Thank you very much.
Speaker 1 (35:57):
Thanks to Carra Smith and Jack Jorgensen. Really interesting my
key takeaways. Really AI is shaking up recruitment on every level,
making it more critical than ever to craft a really
good CV that's friendly not only to the algorithms but
to the humans as well. Who are going to get
a shortlisted bunch of cvs and you really want to
stand out there. But you know, and this sounds obvious.
(36:20):
I know a lot of friends who are simply fired
in an application for a job this year and been
a bit indignant about not even getting an acknowledgment off
it or not making the shortlist. You can't just stop
with the application. You need to cultivate your personal brand,
tap into networks, start upskilling in the AI and soft
(36:42):
skills that are now the real differentiators and show recruiters
and companies' perspective employers that you're willing to upskill and reskill.
That's what they want to see. The smartest candidates are
moving beyond the job board rat race, you know, going
to seek and trade me jobs, making direct connections, and
(37:03):
showing both technical acumen and genuine human potential. I think
in the tech sector, which talent works in, this is
all the more important that you have obviously those those
technical skills, but you have all the other skills, the
soft skills that they want, as well as that aptitude
and AI and that willingness to of skill in AI.
(37:25):
I think it's really interesting that while recruiters are using AI,
they recognize the serious limitations off it for picking who
the best fit candidates are going to be. It's sort
of refreshing really that Karen and Jack are advocating, you know,
the traditional way of doing things, getting out there, hustling,
working any angle that will give you an edge. That's
(37:45):
it for the Business of Tech this week. Show notes
are in the podcast section at business esk dot co
dot nz. Thanks so much to our loyal sponsor two
degrees No. I'll catch you next Thursday streaming on iHeartRadio.
We're your favorite podcast app for another episode of the
Business of Time tick catch you then
Welcome to the Business of Tech powered by two Degrees Business.
I'm Peter Griffin, and this week I'm delving into the
future of work, or more precisely, the future of your
efforts to get a job, because AI is changing the
hiring landscape quicker than you probably think. If you've ever
wondered about how algorithms are re shaping who gets noticed
(00:25):
in the pile of cvs, or what employers are looking
for and recruits in the era of AI, you'll want
to keep listening. I'm joined on a business of tech
this week by Kara Smith, managing director al tauroa for
the global recruitment giant Talent, and Jack Jorgensen, general Manager Data,
AI and Innovation at AVOC, the talent owned tech company
(00:50):
sort of their sister company that does all the tech
underpinning their HR and recruitment efforts. Kara told me that
applications are coming into Talent in record numbers at the moment.
It's a soft market, so any decent position is attracting
huge interest across the recruitment industry. AI is scanning mountains
(01:11):
of applications and filtering candidates before a human ever looks
at them. So what does that mean for companies trying
to find real talent amidst the noise? More importantly, what
can job seekers actually do to stand out from the
crowd of algorithm optimized cvs. Kara and Jack breakdown why
(01:32):
it's no longer enough to just hit apply and why
personal branding and proactive networking matter more than ever whether
you're hiring, hustling, or just hoping to keep your career
future proof. Stick around for some really useful advice. Here's
the interview with Carra Smith and Jack Jordansen. Cara and Jack,
(01:55):
Welcome to the Business of Tech.
Speaker 2 (01:57):
How are you doing? Very good? Thank you whatever, very good,
good morning.
Speaker 1 (02:01):
Yeah, you're an Australia Jack coming in from Melbourne, so
thanks for taking the time. Now you're from Avoc, which
is a sister company to Talent, the big recruitment company.
Speaker 3 (02:12):
Yeah that's right. Yeah, we work with Talent on project
delivery right.
Speaker 1 (02:15):
Okay, So we're going to get into some of the
technical aspects of recruitment and the buzzword at the moment,
it really is around artificial intelligence and the impact that
is having. But Cara, it would be great for you
to give us an overview. You've been at Talent well
over a decade now in the recruitment game for at
least a couple of decades. Keen to get your perspective
(02:38):
on what is going on out there at the moment
in the New Zealand market. It has been a tough,
tough year, but you're seeing more applications than ever before.
And this is what we're sort of hearing as well
at Business Desk is that any half decent job that
goes up is just mobbed with people. So there's a
(02:59):
lot of people, you know, two hundred people sometimes applying
from mid grade communications manager role, which is I've just
never seen before. A lot of my friends who have
been made redundant from journalism are finding themselves you're really
missing out on jobs that maybe five years ago they
would have got. So can you get your perspective on
(03:19):
what's happening with applications and the amounts of decent jobs
that are out there and how candidates are sort of
navigating this at the moment.
Speaker 4 (03:28):
Well, firstly from a market perspective, you know, I think
we all went away at Christmas and we're like, you know,
we're going to come back in January and the market's
going to have magically rebounded, and.
Speaker 2 (03:40):
Obviously that never happened.
Speaker 4 (03:42):
And look, I'm getting to a point and I believe
a lot of our clients are getting to a point
where I don't think that's going to happen. I think
we need to accept that within reason, this is now
our new normal. And therefore, what does that mean for
candidates who are looking for jobs?
Speaker 2 (03:59):
So you are.
Speaker 4 (04:00):
Application rates have been on the increase for about actually
eighteen months now and continue to climb every month. And anecdotally,
you know, our clients are just absolutely swamped with applications,
as are we as well. So what that does is
it creates I think it creates two things.
Speaker 2 (04:19):
One, it creates an incredible amount of noise in.
Speaker 4 (04:21):
The market, and I think secondly, it creates a false
perception that there are lots of fantastically skilled and suitable
candidates for the role that you are advertising and recruiting for.
And I don't really think that's the case. It's noise.
There might be gems within that noise, but we're not
(04:41):
in a hugely candidate rich market at the highly skilled area.
And when you add the complexity on top of that
that obviously from an AI and automation overall digital transformation perspective.
Speaker 2 (04:56):
The skill sets that are needed are really grown very
very fast.
Speaker 4 (05:01):
That's changing, right, and people quite simply just don't necessarily
have all those skills yet because we haven't been involved
in those types of projects yet. So your overall question
was what how are candidates? How are they navigating that? Look,
I think I still talk to candidates that are overly
reliant on job boards, They are overly reliant on applying
(05:24):
for a job, and they just leave it at that,
and that is just not going to be successful. They
must use a multi pronged approach. For a market as
small as I'm coming to you from Tamakimkodo, Auckland. So
for a market as small as Auckland, for a market
as small as New Zealand, your personal brand right now
is absolutely everything. Because if a hiring manager opens up
(05:45):
their their inbox or their ATS and says sees five
hundred cvs whether it's right or wrong, They're going to
naturally go who do I know and hear or what
partner can I partner with that knows someone that can
point me to so the right people or the people
they think are right, they might not be right. I
guess that's an important part rather than just dealing with
(06:07):
all of us noise.
Speaker 1 (06:08):
And look, talent does quite a bit of recruitment in
the tech related space, a lot of contract roles, particularly
with Microsoft, HP and the like, you recruit for those
technology stacks. What are you seeing specifically around tech recruitment?
What we're sort of hearing overseas is really the tech
industry is eating its own dog food when it comes
(06:29):
to artificial intelligence and seeing big efficiencies there in software
development and the like, and that is definitely leading to
job losses but also slower recruitment as well. As we've
always had quite a tight market when it comes to
tech talent in New Zealand. It's hard to get really
good people and we've leaned on immigration to get the
(06:49):
people we need. What are you seeing at the moment
specifically in tech.
Speaker 4 (06:52):
Specifically for tech, We're seeing a growing need of what
I would say the skills around what's going to be
happening is happening with in certain AI initiative, So that
could be solutions, architecture, that could be data, that could
be governance, that could be people who have advised pilot programs,
you know, successfully before into scaling implementations. We're seeing a
(07:16):
need for leaders who are change agents. We're seeing quite
a lot of reorgit that leadership layer as well. And
from a software development perspective, yes, we are kind of
seeing a bit of a what I would almost call
like a sinking lid recruitment policy. That the new normal
or the new desired future state is that people will
(07:37):
have leaner teams and you will have software development teams
who are far more productive due to you know, advances
in certain AI tools, et cetera. And so from again
going back to the perspective for the candidate, the candidate
themselves really need to be investing in do you have
do you understand how to utilize those tools to make
(07:59):
yourself more productive?
Speaker 2 (08:01):
And does that change?
Speaker 4 (08:02):
And I think it is changing the nature of So
then what does a really good tech candidate do If
ultimately you're using tools to do the more commoditized tasks, well,
then your real strength is in creativity, problem solving, change management,
stakeholder management. And I think that actually is the bigger
(08:24):
is the bigger change and is going to be the
bigger pressure in the market.
Speaker 2 (08:28):
In order to develop those skills.
Speaker 1 (08:29):
AI is changing every industry. The AI Forum's latest survey
of businesses found the number of businesses that said they'd
let staff go as a result of AI had double.
It's still small, about fourteen percent, but it's also saying
it's opening opportunities for existing staff, which goes to your
point that the skill set is changing and you need
(08:51):
to be ready for that. Jack from your point of view,
you know these Karen mentioned these ATS's applicant tracking system
which probably fill candidates with drid, you know as they
tried to get through with their application and actually get
in front of someone. What are these systems and how
widely used are they now? Buy big recruiters, Every.
Speaker 3 (09:13):
Big recruit is using it. You've got you know, in
the New Zealand market, you know, five hundred applicants going
for one posting, straining market, it could be thousands of
applicants going for a job posting. And if you're not
using a system to try to clear through that volume,
then you would have to have you know, thousands of
people reviewing CBS for a job posting. So these ATS systems,
(09:36):
as a gross simplification of what they do is that
they will collect and store applicant information pase that information
to look for keywords, and then they score that applicant
against the job posting. They then help manage that candidate
through the progression of the hiring pipeline, you know, scheduling, interviews,
rejection notices. It's a centralized system to manage that component.
(10:00):
The end, the recruiting firm will have time to hierometrics
the source of hiometrics cost per hiometrics. I think it's
important for candidates to understand that they are being put
into these systems because from a sheer volume perspective, it
just has to be done. Having a CV or a
resume that is optimized for those is definitely going to
(10:21):
help bring your chances up to the top of the pack. However,
there are obviously some caveats and some ethics concerns that
kind of play into that as well.
Speaker 1 (10:31):
Yeah, so the sorts of things these ATIS systems are
looking for. Keywords are a key one, so looking for
common section headings, formats, things like that, and then you've
got optical character recognition. If someone sends into maybe a
PDF for something with information and even images and there,
the systems can extract that and look at it, and
(10:52):
then you've got artificial intelligence there as well, extracting information
inferring meaning from the context. In that I guess that's
the really interesting one. How well that AI is at
among five hundred cvs going, Ah, this person has the
hard skills, but also the soft skills that are really
going to suit this role.
Speaker 3 (11:13):
Yeah, I think it's still got a long way to
go in regards to identifying those soft skills, especially so
as if I was to look at hiring a candidate
or going and putting a CV through myself, I'm not
there to focus on the skills that I actually have. Now,
I'm there to optimize my CV for a system. So
it's more about how do I optimize my ranking as
(11:37):
opposed to how do I showcase who I am as
an individual? And what that does is those systems are
going to start overlooking, you know, potential in candidates, because
AI can't identify potential in a human being unconventional candidates,
so any transferable skills unique non traditional candidates. You know,
if we look at your journalistic colleagues that you mentioning
(11:59):
before missing out of jobs that they would have normally
gotten in the past. You know, these systems, you know
someone may have mentioned two or three things more than them,
or they've missed a single keyword on their CV which
has de ranked them significantly. But they might be really
really good for the job anyway. And AI I don't
believe is going to make any major leaps and bounds
(12:20):
in this regard in the near future, because even though
you do have video analysis that's looking at para language
analysis in videos, which obviously rides a very fine ethical
line for biometric data collection, it's still not going to
be anywhere near as good as a recruiter who knows
(12:41):
the candidates, who understands the people, who understands your organization
and what the culture is there and what they need
as a business, and finding the right balance of the
technical or the hard skill sets that are required for
that role, but also the person and the mentality behind
what that organization needs.
Speaker 1 (13:08):
The logical thing for me, I think, faced with this,
God forbid, I have to go out there into the
workforce in a soft market at the moment, but I
would probably go to chat GPT to write my CV
for me and prompt it to create a CV and
a cover letter that is going to be optimized for
putting my best foot forward. Are candidates doing that, and
(13:30):
are you seeing that you starting to see the same
sort of tropes and style emerging in cvs and cover letters.
Speaker 2 (13:38):
Yes and no, but it's definitely growing.
Speaker 4 (13:40):
I think what concerns me, and I talk to clients
about this all the time, is if everyone starts doing that.
I get why we're doing that, because we're trying to
hit the matches and we're trying to be higher ranked
in an ATS or a job board or maybe even
a hiring managers taking fifteen cvs they've received from their
recruitment partner and they're going, hey, I'm going to chuck
(14:02):
this into my co pilot or something similar, and who
would you recommend that I interview. I have no doubt
all of these things are happening because quite simply, people
are playing with the tools and they're low on time.
Speaker 2 (14:12):
So what worries me.
Speaker 4 (14:14):
Is just the the uniformity that starts to that starts
to happen. And so I have to bring it back
to a point that I made before that a candidate
must take you know, I guess the bull by the
horns more. They must have a multi pronged approach. They
must be thinking about their network, they must be thinking
about their personal brand. They must be thinking about can
(14:34):
I can I get an internal referral at that organization
as well? You know, so that there it's it can't
if I think of it just solely relies on their CV.
And if that then becomes solely relying on word matching,
whether that's after you've engaged with the recruiter or before
you've engaged with a recruiter, that that to me is
(14:57):
a concern. So you've got to really think about what
are the things that in your control. Another thing I
would say, and this might sound a bit funny, when
we you know, say, you know, spell check your resume
and grammar check everything. I'm starting to almost like the
odd grammar, the old grammar mistake. And my parents are
teachers and they've drilled the stuff into me my whole life.
But you know what, because then you know it's authentic.
(15:18):
Then you know it's it's like that's a human being
that's written that, and they've made a little mistake. Well,
you know, mistakes are human and we kind of want
those humans. And then the other thing I would say
more to a client is if you're if you are
taking cvs and putting it into some kind of ranking system,
and if you're only working from that judgment, then you know,
(15:41):
tell me the last time you hired someone that was
a ten out of ten and hung around a long time,
was actually engaged, actually learned a lot. It's not going
to be the case. We know when we take a
new role, if we've got that edge, if we've got
that gap, if we have to learn something, we know,
we're more engaged in the hiring manager to gets more
out of that candidate as well. So that's the part
(16:03):
about potential, that's the part about the full picture, and
an ATS is not going to be able to give
that to you.
Speaker 1 (16:08):
Yeah, so the human in the loop is really important.
And so what does it look like now for one
of your typical agents, you know, potentially looking at for
great candidates for it contracting roles for instance. So they're
getting hundreds of applicants. So is the system sort of
creating a shortlist based on rankings, based on all the
(16:29):
things we've been talking about, some of those keywords, some
of the AI inference, and then they're wading through a
short list of candidates.
Speaker 4 (16:36):
Only if and I'm answering from a talent perspective, now,
only if we needed to go to that stage.
Speaker 2 (16:44):
I would call that an escalated search.
Speaker 4 (16:46):
So going back to the fact that over the last quarter,
eighty two percent of all of our successful placements have
not included a job board ashole, and that's because we
every single time a role comes in, we're going to
our networks, to the collect actives networks as well. Every
contract role that comes into the Talent New Zealand business,
we raise it and we go, hey, who do you know?
(17:07):
So that networking is so so important. We then go
to all of our talent pools, to the people that
have contracted with us before, et cetera. And most of
the time I would hesitate to say two thirds of
the time we.
Speaker 2 (17:23):
Can have a short list from that poll.
Speaker 4 (17:26):
Only then would we need to go outside of that,
and that might be for your new your niche skills,
you're more in demand skills, et cetera. And then it's
probably more direct headhunting. Again, another thing we've actually started
doing because again we're trying to fight through that noise
and fundamentally give our clients more confidence that they can
(17:47):
move on this candidate. It's a real person that we've
worked with before, et ceteras. We're actually taking reference checks
up front, so we're now going we need more information
to give to our clients to say you have done
a project like that before that you've you know, what
are your strengths to paint the candidate as a human
being with real strengths and real potential. That's fundamentally what
(18:10):
we're doing right now and with seeing some really good
things from it.
Speaker 1 (18:13):
So do you recommend that people who are looking for
jobs actually go approach recruitment agencies or companies directly and
just say, look, I'm on the lookout for work. I
think some people actually go to talent agencies and register
themselves with them, so you know, contractors and they likes
so that you're on their radar. Is that something that
(18:35):
people should definitely in this environment be doing, actually reaching
out proactively, even if they don't they're not looking for
job today but maybe in the near future.
Speaker 4 (18:43):
Certainly so I would, And this is where I would
be using the likes of chat GPT for I would
be going, you know, these are my key strengths, these
are the types of opportunities I'm looking in for. What
recruitment agencies are specialists in that? So if it's in
New Zealand talent specialists, tech and transformation recruitment, and then
going proactively going to that organization and saying, hey, keen
(19:06):
to pop into your office, keen to you know, shout
you a cup of coffee. This is the magic of
New Zealand right where we're so close and we're we're
this kind of community. So you have to use it
to your advantage. Really keen to talk to you proactively
around the types of opportunities I'm interested in, you know,
by strength some of my successful projects, et cetera, and
learn about what you're seeing in the market. I would
(19:27):
be trying to do everything a little bit in advance
because often when we are engaging, well not often every
time when we are, when we do receive a role
from a hiring manager, we have to move at speed.
So that's why we don't always put up an AD
because it slows us down. We have to know the
(19:47):
people already and we invest a lot of time at
talent meeting, you know, candidates ahead of the curve.
Speaker 1 (19:54):
Traditionally, the good thing about applying to a job a
job AD is it sort of seemed on the outside
anyway like it was going to be a merit based decision.
The recruiters would look at a group of people and
people they didn't know or expect to apply for this job,
and everyone got a fair crack at it. I think
a lot of people would feel a little bit dirty,
really sort of trying to make approaches over DMS on
(20:18):
LinkedIn or whatever. But that's the reality of it. You've
got to have this multi prong approach. But Jack from
your point of view, with AI now in the loop
looking at some of these applications, I guess the real
concern for a talent agency for a company is if
the system shows bias against someone you know. There have
been some high profile cases as a chap in the US.
(20:41):
Derek Mobley, he was an IT guy in North Carolina.
He applied for over one hundred jobs, didn't get anything,
applied to work Day a software company, and got rejected.
Man of color with a disability, and he suspected that
the system was flagging him as not appropriate. He took
that to court. It's ongoing. I think there have been
(21:02):
a number of high profile cases like this where people
are going I'm getting nowhere and I'm getting eliminated at
an early stage. So how do you deal with that
from a bias point of view, making sure that you're
not the system is not eliminating people who may be
really good but on the surface don't seem appropriate.
Speaker 3 (21:21):
If I had an answer to that question, I think
I'd be in a different job. So yeah, I mean,
you're absolutely right. One of the biggest challenges in that
is the large language model, specifically so your chat GPT
style AI is really opaque in its decision making and
so challenging that AI's decision to understand why a particular
candidate was rejected is near on impossible. At the moment,
(21:44):
there are tools that are being developed to actually understand
the chain of thought in a bit of a deeper way.
We would have seen in older AIS before the kind
of transformer AI model started coming out in twenty seventeen,
those decision trees were very static. But with large language models,
it is very, very opaque. From a bias perspective, AI
(22:06):
doesn't eliminate bias, it almost codifies it. And so if
we're looking at the historical data that that AI model
has been trained on, and then for a company who
is predominantly hired people from let's say MIT, then it's
going to prioritize those traits and in turn amplify the
(22:26):
bias within the system. It's kind of like an echo
effect where it's you know, this person's from MIT, so
they get boosted and they get the next person gets
boosted because of that. So pulling the bias out of
those models and getting them to be a lot more
down the middle is a really really big challenge. But
on top of that, if you do get it down
the middle, then it's going to promote down the middle candidates.
(22:49):
That doesn't necessarily mean it's going to be the best
fit for your role, for what your organization needs. And
so I think that there's really two things to consider.
First is that AI is fantastic as a use case
to pull the wheat from the chaff. So if you've
got people who've never worked in that industry before, you
know they've had a role that's in supply chain and
(23:12):
now they're going for a finance director, you know they
might not have the skill sets to complement that role,
and AI can quite quickly remove those candidates from the pool.
But then you do really need someone with experience and
an understanding of your organization and an understanding of those
candidates to ensure that that bias doesn't, you know, move
beyond that initial culling and allow those candidates to progress successfully.
Speaker 1 (23:41):
Do you envisage JACK the future of recruitment where it's
sort of like almost a fully automated process from job
posting to application to sort of onboarding, where a lot
of that is effectively AI augmented, but you know, a
lot of it is very automated.
Speaker 3 (24:00):
I mean, there are definitely roles where that is applicable.
There are definitely sections of the market where I think
that that's definitely a use case to support that narrative.
For example, entry level positions. You know, in Australia specifically, traditionally,
as I was growing up, everybody worked in either a
department store or at in fast food as the kind
(24:23):
of their first jobs, and I think those roles are
perfect for that kind of automated process once you start
getting into the more I guess career centric job positions.
I don't believe that AI has a part to play
in the entire process. However, it's definitely got benefits along
the journey of higher to actually placing that candidate.
Speaker 1 (24:47):
I've heard a bit about I haven't seen an example
of it, but sort of pre screening interviews that are
done with AI. So it may not even be a
recruiter on the call, but someone will be as to
log onto a platform as answer a series of questions
and in the AI analyzes their responses. Is that something
that's becoming more common in the industry?
Speaker 3 (25:09):
It is, so what they're looking at there is typically
the is the candidate baseline applicable for that, asking them
kind of general questions about you know, who they are,
are they a citizen? Are they legally allowed to work?
They're also looking at para language, so how the candidate
speaks their intonation. It's not just you know, text on
(25:32):
a page. Then it's it's you know, are they're confident
in how they're talking, which I think rides a pretty
fine line around kind of ethics and the use of
biometric data in that regard. There's also a bit of
retric yet to see any actual numbers on it, but
there is retric to say that it is used for
screening out candidates in ways that allows certain organizations to
(25:57):
be more discriminatory. So as an example, if they're you know,
they may not they may need someone who can speak
English at a very very high level, and they're using
that video platform to help remove candidates from there. Personally,
I've gone through an interview process many years ago where
they use this technology. They wanted me to do an
(26:17):
interview like that, and I flat refused. In my opinion,
if I'm interviewing for your organization, interviewing for a role,
and I'm giving you that respect, I would expect the
same respect in return that I would like to speak
to a human being. Because I'm while I'm being interviewed
to see if I'm the right fit for your organization,
I also want to interview the organization to make sure
(26:38):
that it's the right fit for me.
Speaker 1 (26:39):
But what do you do, Cara, when you're applying for
a job and these processes are built into the system
and you're uncomfortable about it, it's sort of hard to
go around them. As maybe even inappropriate to try and
go around them.
Speaker 4 (26:53):
I think that's a values question for the individual, and
whatever the answer is, I would respect it fundamentally if
you don't to engage in a certain process, whether you
know and that you know, just just recently our clients
are doing more face to face interviews again, and you know,
and you know COVID, and immediately post COVID that was
more online. So even that change, which is kind of
(27:16):
a more traditional change, even that change, we had candidates say,
you know, I don't really see the need to go
into the organization, you know, I would prefer to do
this online, et cetera. So there's always changes and processes
and it's up to the candidate to engage or not.
I did want to go back back a step if
I if I could, because I picked up on your
(27:36):
point around when you said that you think you had
a really fair shot. You know, there's an ad, you
respond to the ad.
Speaker 2 (27:44):
You hope that.
Speaker 4 (27:45):
Everyone had been verified and looked at equally and fairly.
And I think a really important part for candidates to
remember whether it is fair or not, is that at
the point that you're in aging with a recruitment consultant,
it's often an engagement that is non exclusive, and so
(28:06):
by the nature of that, there's an element of speed
and effectiveness that needs to take place. So I would
just it's just the realities of that. However, I will
say we are working a lot more with clients who
are asking us to canvas exclusively, and often we're being
retained in this manner, canvas could be multi region. Say,
(28:31):
for example, we want you to look in both markets.
We're going to utilize you as our exclusive partner. We're
going to give you two weeks to run this process.
We want you to provide us with a balance shortlist.
We would love to see you know, Wahan, their Malori, Pacifica,
you know, perhaps it's neurodiverse candidates as well. We'd love
to see a longer and more balance shortlist. And so
(28:54):
we need to see more leadership like that from our
clients as well, to say we're not going to have
you go for a race for for eight hours. We're
going to partner with you early. We're going to provide
you with the full picture, and we're going to enable
you to go out and run that process. And when
we are working in that manner, we are having a
talent incredibly successful results for the client. So that's just
(29:14):
another thing to keep in mind as well.
Speaker 1 (29:16):
So whether people like it or not, really you sort
of have to be algorithm friendly in terms of the
information you're assembling for recruitment companies or employers to look at.
Speaker 2 (29:28):
Jack.
Speaker 1 (29:28):
Do you think you know ultimately we're all going to
have to sort of curate our own data sets that
fits those requirements, everything from how we design our LinkedIn
pages to our websites. You know, like ten twenty years ago,
it was all when you were trying to get your
website noticed. It was all about search engine optimization. You
(29:49):
had to be algorithm friendly when you designed your website. Essentially,
we are having to do that now for how we
represent ourselves to potential employers.
Speaker 3 (29:59):
Yeah, and if I wind back the clock to the
let's say the nineteen seventies and you went in for
a prospective job, you would dress nicely, make sure that
you had a haircut, and you're presenting yourself as the
best possible self that you can be for that interview
and for that engagement. I think that that's just changed
over the years into a CV cover letter style presentation.
(30:25):
Then LinkedIn came through, and now we're into a different
space of curating your image. It's just shifted from a
physical space into a more digital one. So you absolutely
do need to be curating your online presence and profile,
specifically for the future and for roles that you want
in five to ten years time. The data that's being
(30:46):
harvested now is going to be on the books for
quite a long time. And so if you've got social
media presence that's not conducive to who you want to
be in ten years, you may want to clean that
up so that it's not coming back to or a
recruiter in ten or fifteen years and they're looking at
it going so you said this, but yeah, absolutely, curating
(31:07):
your profile, curating who you are and who your presence is.
But I think it's very important not to overcurate the
point where it's not authentic to who you are and
to your own capability, because then you're selling something that
is completely misleading. And you know, while we can look
(31:28):
at it and say, well, you know, companies and organizations
shouldn't be using AI to do this process, you know,
in the same token, we should also say the candidates
shouldn't be using AI. However, when push comes to shove,
it's going to happen in both directions. It's about, you know,
do I make myself as ethical as I can be online?
Do I make it, you know, present who I am
and get hired for what I can present to the world,
(31:52):
versus providing some artificially inflated capability statement which in three
to six months is going to turn out to completely
in your image, especially in the market the size of
New Zealand, where word we'll get around quickly.
Speaker 1 (32:04):
And as always I've having hired a few people myself,
there's always the you know, what is different, the different
approach someone's taken, and which is quite refreshing in a
sea of sort of templated cvs you see on LinkedIn,
a lot of people in the tech sector are going
posting their CV. This is the CV that got me
jobs at Google, Uber and Amazon, and they're usually the
(32:27):
most basic. One page is so it seems you know
all the strategies you can do in that. What what
really appeals to people is just give me the basics,
state it plainly, don't try and dress it up too much.
Is that what you feel, Caro, when you're looking at
a pile of cvs, Give it to me simply. You
sell yourself on a page.
Speaker 4 (32:47):
Yes, And you know, going back to one of the
first things I said, hiring managers and recruitment companies and
large organized talent acquisition teams and organizations are just dealing
with so much information and so much noise. The more succinct,
the more precise and correct. Go to Jack's point as well,
don't say things that aren't real because it will be
(33:08):
found out at some point throughout the process. The better,
whether that's one, two, three pages, you know, you know,
it's kind of arguably up for the candidate, but it
must be specific.
Speaker 1 (33:19):
And just finally, going back to what you were saying
at the start, that the types of projects you're recruiting
for are slightly different now and that's the influence of
artificial intelligence. And we've been told, you know, the mundane,
the manual, the repetitive is going to disappear increasingly. So
your skill set needs to be the soft skills around
working with others, collaborating, overseeing the AI agent. Things like
(33:43):
quality assessments and assurance are really important. So in terms
of how you navigate this job market dynamic that is changing,
what should I do as a mid forties guy who's
been a wordsmith my entire life, but AI is coming
for that industry. Should I be going out and doing
free courses from MIT and that around prompt engineering and
(34:06):
so showing that I have some interest in upskilling in AI.
Or should I be doing soft skill type skill development,
doing team leading and that sort of thing, what do
you need to have on your CV for the algorithm
to go? This person is thinking about the future.
Speaker 4 (34:22):
I think in the short term people definitely need to
be taking responsibility of upskilling themselves about AI a one
hundred percent. I'm currently doing micro credential right now in
Disruptive Technology focused on AI with Francis Valentine at Academy
X and speaking of you know, journalists there are and
the creative industry in general. There are a significant amount
(34:44):
of adult students around the forty to fifty year age
from the film commission partaking in this cohort. So that
is incredibly important that everyone takes responsibility for that, and
then in parallel, yes, really thinking about how does that
augment your work now so that you can do more
(35:06):
of those human lead things. So as an example, at Talent,
we're currently kicking off a pilot, you know, looking at
some different LMS for the executive team. I've created a
baseline for myself to go, this is how much time
I spend with my team now and really, you know,
in really important conversations, this is how much time I
(35:26):
spend with clients right now.
Speaker 2 (35:28):
I'm wanting to now get better at using you.
Speaker 4 (35:31):
Know, these productivity tools etc. So that I can spend
more time in front of clients with my team and
basically having more impact than before.
Speaker 1 (35:40):
Well, lots of good tips there and some great insights
into what's going on in the New Zealand market. Caras,
so thanks so much, Thanks so much, Jack for coming
on the Business of Tech.
Speaker 2 (35:50):
Thank you very much.
Speaker 1 (35:57):
Thanks to Carra Smith and Jack Jorgensen. Really interesting my
key takeaways. Really AI is shaking up recruitment on every level,
making it more critical than ever to craft a really
good CV that's friendly not only to the algorithms but
to the humans as well. Who are going to get
a shortlisted bunch of cvs and you really want to
stand out there. But you know, and this sounds obvious.
(36:20):
I know a lot of friends who are simply fired
in an application for a job this year and been
a bit indignant about not even getting an acknowledgment off
it or not making the shortlist. You can't just stop
with the application. You need to cultivate your personal brand,
tap into networks, start upskilling in the AI and soft
(36:42):
skills that are now the real differentiators and show recruiters
and companies' perspective employers that you're willing to upskill and reskill.
That's what they want to see. The smartest candidates are
moving beyond the job board rat race, you know, going
to seek and trade me jobs, making direct connections, and
(37:03):
showing both technical acumen and genuine human potential. I think
in the tech sector, which talent works in, this is
all the more important that you have obviously those those
technical skills, but you have all the other skills, the
soft skills that they want, as well as that aptitude
and AI and that willingness to of skill in AI.
(37:25):
I think it's really interesting that while recruiters are using AI,
they recognize the serious limitations off it for picking who
the best fit candidates are going to be. It's sort
of refreshing really that Karen and Jack are advocating, you know,
the traditional way of doing things, getting out there, hustling,
working any angle that will give you an edge. That's
(37:45):
it for the Business of Tech this week. Show notes
are in the podcast section at business esk dot co
dot nz. Thanks so much to our loyal sponsor two
degrees No. I'll catch you next Thursday streaming on iHeartRadio.
We're your favorite podcast app for another episode of the
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