September 17, 2025 • 37 mins
Three months ago, Mark Rocket strapped in for a ride aboard Blue Origin’s New Shepard sub-orbital launch vehicle, and in the process became the first Kiwi to enter space.
The experience was a culmination of years of anticipation and some unexpected twists for the tech entrepreneur who was a pivotal, early investor in Rocket Lab and went on to form his own venture Kea Aerospace.
Joining five other passengers on the New Shepard rocket in July, Rocket enjoyed several minutes of weightlessness on the suborbital trip that saw him pass the Kármán line, the 100-kilometre threshold that marks the boundary between Earth's atmosphere and outer space.
Floating in the capsule, peering down at Earth through the big windows, Rocket says he relates to the emotions felt by astronauts looking back at Earth from space, known as the “overview effect”.
“It was incredible to see the atmosphere and the blackness of space. It’s quite a powerful feeling seeing the context of the Earth and the Sun. It was quite an emotional experience,” he said.
“You do get that real emotional impact when you see how thin the atmosphere is. We can only live in the bottom five kilometres of the atmosphere. By the time you're up to 100 kilometres, there is not much atmosphere left. It's like the skin of an apple,” he added.
Listen to the full conversation on episode 117 of The Business of Tech powered by 2degrees Business, streaming on iHeartRadio and wherever you get your podcasts.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Welcome to the Business of Tech powered by Two Degrees Business.
I'm Peter Griffin, and today we're going on a literal
journey above and beyond as we get the inside story
from Mark Rocket, the first key we ever to travel
into space, and a trailblazer who's helping launch New Zealand
into the aerospace age. Mark's recent suborbital mission aboard Blue
(00:26):
Origin's New Shepherd not only fulfilled a lifelong dream for him,
but cemented his place in history as a founder, as
an investor, and a relentless advocate for a growing space sector.
We'll dive into Mark's journey from the early days signing
up with Virgin Galactic to go to space, to his
exhilarating flight with Jeff Bezos's Blue Origin and the powerful
(00:50):
emotions that come from seeing Earth's fragile atmosphere from the
edge of space what's known as the overview effect. But
it's not just about ticking off a bucket for Mark.
At the heart of it lies his vision for Kia Aerospace,
his christ Church based startup, which is building high end
solar powered aircraft to revolutionize things like environmental monitoring and
(01:15):
disaster response right here on Earth. He also talks about
his involvement in Rocket Lab as a pivotal early investor,
walking a fine line on taking defense contracts, and the
growth potential in our burgeon in aerospace sector. Mark is
the President of Aerospace New Zealand and the New Zealand
(01:35):
Aerospace Summit is just around the corner, coming up on
October the eighth in christ Church. Hoping to get along
to it myself. There you'll find industry leaders, government and
global delegations gathering to tackle the future of flight and
open skies. Mark Rocket is the ultimate space enthusiast. He
changed his name to reflect his passion for space rocketry.
(02:00):
Think you'll like his tale of finally making it into space.
Here's Mark Rockett, Mark Rocket. Welcome to the business of tech.
How are you doing.
Speaker 2 (02:12):
I'm very good. Thanks better.
Speaker 1 (02:13):
Well, look it's three months I guess now almost since
your amazing trip into space. The mission aboard Blue Origin's
New Shepherd NS thirty two. I think that was the
twelfth launch by Blue Origin.
Speaker 3 (02:29):
Yes, I think for passengers on board the other payload
type launchers as.
Speaker 1 (02:35):
Well, so it's got a lot of interest at the time,
and even long before that. I think it was yourself
and Derek Handley. I think Derek had signed up with
Virgin Galactic originally to go into space. Were you the
same or were you always with Blue Origin.
Speaker 3 (02:49):
Yeah, I signed up with Virgin Galactic back in two
thousand and six, So yeah, I think I was the
first key we had to confirm and pay for that ticket.
And then yeah, there's a bunch of other keywis that
on board progressively as well. So yeah, I was part
of what they called the founders group with Virgin Galactic,
and there's about eighty of us. They're sort of mixed
(03:10):
up all around the world, different to different people. And yeah,
they got initially they were sort of planning to fly
about twenty eleven twenty twelve with some of the marketing
team we're talking about. But we started to get a
few mixed messages from the technical team saying, you know,
maybe that's not going to quite be possible, and you know,
they had a few ups and downs on the way,
(03:31):
and I got to the point where I was on
the customer list. I think I was SEAK thirty eight,
and they did a few initial flights and then they
decided they wanted to redevelop the vehicle and things have
been put on hold for a few years, and hopefully
they'll kick off again in the next year or two.
But meanwhile I signed up with Blue Origin and I
was lucky enough to get a flight up there this year.
(03:53):
So that was incredible. You know, there's such an amazing
technology company. Yeah, they've just got a real momentum.
Speaker 1 (04:01):
Yeah, and some big names. You're in good company. Not
on the same flight, but Katie Perry, the pop star
obviously was up there. Jeff Bezos himself went on an
earlier flight. So you're joining an elite club of a
small number of people who have got to enjoy this,
but sort of take us through it from the lead
(04:21):
up to it. I guess a lot of preparation is
required to actually go on that very brief trip.
Speaker 3 (04:27):
Yeah, I guess depends, Hoy, you look at it. Basically,
we arrived three days before. I got to know that
the team that first day and gave us our fitted
astronaut suit and Texas Cowboy hat and a few other
bits and pieces, and basically then the second day we
started training in the capsule and that was pretty interesting,
(04:50):
just going through the flight profile and how the day
was going to roll out. And then the second training
day was more more about or phenomenal situations where things
go wrong. If there's a fire, you had to do
emergency egress, all that kind of stuff. And yeah, then
the next day it was flight day, so yeah, it
was really rolled out in a way that was fantastic,
(05:12):
great experience. So yeah, I think everyone felt comfortable by
the time we got to flight day and we were
ready to go.
Speaker 1 (05:18):
And how did they broach the issue of the risk
because this is seriously risky. You know, Blue Origin hasn't
been around for a long time. They've done a lot
of great work. It's obviously a highly regulated industry as well,
but let's face it, you know, the chance of something
going wrong is a bit higher than an other industries.
So where where they quite stark about the risks and
(05:42):
the responsibilities if something goes wrong.
Speaker 3 (05:44):
Yeah, well you sign your life away before you get there.
But yeah, I think there was one person on a
previous flight and he had won a ticket, and I
think he was kind of like a random person in
the population that just happened to win this stick at
the space and never kind of had any aspirations of
going to space or taking on that risk. Of going
to space, and so yeah, when he turned up, apparently
(06:07):
you know, he was asking a few more questions than
their average customer.
Speaker 2 (06:12):
That already knew what they were getting into.
Speaker 3 (06:13):
Certainly, you know there's an element of risk, but you
know when you're driving through the South Island or North Island,
there's an element of risk in anything that you do exactly,
and I felt very comfortable with the approach that Blue
Origin took. I think they've got a great piece of technology,
a great approach to sub little flights.
Speaker 2 (06:31):
So I felt pretty comfortable.
Speaker 1 (06:33):
So, yeah, you do a couple of days of prep.
Were you nervous the night before? Did you sleep? Okay?
Speaker 3 (06:38):
No, Yeah I was. I knew what I was getting into.
I felt pretty excited about it. Yeah, No, I didn't
really have any nerves. I mean maybe just as I
was sort of walking on the gantry on to the capture.
Think there's probably a moment of trepidation, but no, overall
there was the excitement of the moment.
Speaker 1 (06:57):
So you're in your tailor made space suit, which hopefully
you still have. Yep, you got to take that home
with the cowboy hat.
Speaker 2 (07:03):
That's right.
Speaker 1 (07:04):
Tell us what it's like sitting down and getting strapped
into that cockpit essentially, how many if you were in
the spaceship.
Speaker 3 (07:12):
Yeah, there's six people on the flight. I was seat
number six, so I mean that I got on first
and got off last. So yeah, essentially you just walk
in there, and I mean you've done a lot of
those simulations already, so you kind of know exactly what's happening.
But you know, on launch day you are on top
of a whole lot of fuel and there's a little
bit more nervousness. Yeah, basically you're on the capsule for
(07:36):
about twenty or so minutes before they do the countdown.
Speaker 2 (07:39):
Then if you go.
Speaker 1 (07:40):
And it's all automated pretty much, it's all computer controlled.
Speaker 2 (07:43):
Yeah, auto autonomous slash robotic system.
Speaker 1 (07:47):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (07:47):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:47):
And what's the feeling like when you have that much
power underneath? I mean, you've been obsessed with rockets for decades,
you know, the physics off them and that, but to
be actually sitting on top of that much energy going off,
what does that feel like?
Speaker 2 (08:02):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (08:02):
I think a lot of people have gone on roller
coasters and maybe ben and cars going a bit faster
than they should sometimes. I mean, you know, certainly there's
that acceleration was pretty incredible. You know, it starts off
as a smooth elevator ride, but then it just goes
faster and faster, and it builds up the speed when
you're zipping through the clouds and you're above the clouds
(08:23):
and you're watching the control panel go up to three
four hundred kilometers per hour and the blood is pumping
at that point and you can feel the rocket sort
of correcting as it's going up, and that was kind
of probably the highest adrenaline moment. You really feel like
you're on the edge of your seat really pushing it.
So yeah, that felt very full on. And then you
(08:46):
get engine cut off and then a few seconds later
you get stage separation, and then basically the main booster
goes back down and land and the capsule keeps on
going up to one hundred and five kilometers and you know,
within a few seconds of that stage separation, you're in
a zero G environment and you can feel the weightlessness.
So you've got to transition mentally from that kind of adrenaline,
(09:11):
you know, holding on pretty tight to your seat, to
basically the opposite of that. Wee you get to float
around the cabin.
Speaker 1 (09:18):
As you were rocketing up through the atmosphere. Could you
look out the window?
Speaker 2 (09:22):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (09:22):
Another one of the great things about the Blue Origin
ship had capture was it's got a beautiful design. You know,
they tried to make the windows as large as they
possibly could, so yeah, you get a fantastic view all
the way up, all the way up, spectacular, fantastic.
Speaker 1 (09:38):
And describe what it sounds like. Is it loud?
Speaker 3 (09:42):
I was expecting it to be like a Formula one car,
but no, it wasn't as loud as I thought it
would be. And then obviously once you're going faster than
the speed of sound, it gets even quieter. So yeah,
it's I mean, you do we air plugs, but I
don't think you know they they were that necessary.
Speaker 1 (10:01):
So you're sitting there, there's the five other people, I guess,
all looking around with glee on their face or a
bit of panic or what was the vibe in the capsule?
Speaker 3 (10:11):
Yeah, well we had two Americans, a Canadian, American, Panamanian,
Puerto Rican. But yeah, certainly the Americans in particular, you
know that they're pretty big on the.
Speaker 2 (10:22):
Stuff. So yeah, I mean there's definitely a good, good
high energy crew.
Speaker 1 (10:29):
Obviously, the first stage goes back and they land that
back on the tim act, do they.
Speaker 3 (10:33):
Yeah, we live from north northwest Texas, and yeah, basically it's.
Speaker 1 (10:38):
A land range, right, So then that comes back down
and then there's a second stage with the capsule on
the top of it. And does that feel quite different
or is that because it won't have as much thrust
those engines? I guess.
Speaker 2 (10:50):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (10:50):
So at that point you stop accelerating and you're on
a kind of like a parabolic arc.
Speaker 2 (10:55):
We're slowing down and then you'll come back down again.
Speaker 1 (10:58):
And then at some point the just cut out completely.
You're at one hundred kilometers above the earth, over the
Caiman line, and that's when you have your very short
window to unbuckle, be weightless and spend a bit of
time looking back at the Earth.
Speaker 2 (11:14):
What was that like the state separation?
Speaker 3 (11:16):
I think it's around fifty five kilometers altitude and from
you know, that's about sixty kilometers on the way. That's
when you're in that zero gravity for about two and
a half minutes. You know, from sixty five kilometers you're
basically going up to one hundred and five kilometers and yeah,
at that point, you know, you can feel the weightlessness
and do flips and other cool stuff, and looking out
(11:37):
the window, it was incredible to see the atmosphere and
the blackness of space is quite a powerful feeling. Seeing
the context of the Earth and the Sun. It was
quite an emotional experience.
Speaker 1 (11:51):
So obviously you saw that the sun. Could you see
other planets in the moon as well?
Speaker 3 (11:56):
No, on the Moon wasn't kind of visible from where
we were. And yeah, I mean, but basically because it's daylight,
the sunlight basically means you just see the blackness of space.
Speaker 1 (12:08):
Well, it must have been surreal. So you know, they
do talk about you've heard about the overview effect. Did
you experience that where it sort of changes your perspective
on everything when you see the Earth from space?
Speaker 3 (12:20):
Yeah, I mean again, I think you know, you do
get that real emotional impact when you see the context.
You know of how thin the atmosphere is, and you
know a lot of people they don't really think that
they see this big blue sky, but you know, the
reality is we can only live in the bottom of
five kilometers of the atmosphere. You know, there are no
habitations higher than five kilometers altitude. So the part with
(12:44):
the oxygen that we breathe and live, and you know
that biosphees it's very thin, and you know, by the
time you're up to one hundred kilometers, there is you know,
not very much atmosphere left. That's what they call it
space effectively. I mean, it does obviously dissipate gradually, even
fear even higher. But the reality is once you're over
one hundred chlometers, you know, most of the atmosphere is
(13:07):
below you, and it's like the skin of an apple.
Speaker 2 (13:10):
I mean, I already knew about that.
Speaker 3 (13:11):
And obviously we all have seen a lot of stuff
about climate change, and yeah, it really historically shows really
the context of our environment.
Speaker 1 (13:20):
Yeah, a lot of astronauts who have come back have
talked about that. Just the fragility of Earth when you
see it from space and has reinforced I think for
a lot of them what the real mission is, which
is you sort of go to space to explore and
to new frontiers, but it's also about taking care of
(13:40):
what we have back on Earth. And that really, I
guess is part of your mission at Kia, your company,
Kia Aerospace, which is looking back down at Earth to
basically observe the Earth in order to look after the
Earth better.
Speaker 3 (13:54):
Yeah, yeah, I think you know, obviously we just got
a little bit of a taste of that, but if
you are in orbit and you're spending hours, weeks or
months and all that, it must be a really profound experience.
And obviously a lot of atauts do come back with
a heightened awareness of the environment and looking after the planet.
Speaker 2 (14:11):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (14:12):
At Key Aerospace, you know, we're building a flying Strata
Spirit aircraft, solar powered, and one of the key applications
I'm excited about is that environmental monitoring and giving more frequent,
high resolution data to help us make informed decisions about
land used.
Speaker 2 (14:28):
Water use, water quality use.
Speaker 3 (14:29):
And they can be used for disaster response and telecommunications
a wide range of other aspects. But yeah, certainly with
observation is a key application.
Speaker 1 (14:38):
Yeah. And look, it's been quite a big year for
you personally obviously with that incredible mission, but also for
the company as well. Just literally in the last week
a really interesting partnership through year partnership with NASA that
you've signed with government funding from mb here, and that's
very much about monitoring water quality, isn't it using your
(14:59):
aircraft to help NASA and New Zealand actually monitor water
quality around the country.
Speaker 3 (15:04):
Yeah, we announced that one a few months ago, and
but yeah, we're very excited to work with some teams
that at NASA on coastal water monitoring. Hopefully that leads
on to other projects. But yeh, there was another project
you're probably alluding to, which is essentially flying over the
Antarctic to monitor the Ozone hole and that'll be in
the next three to five years.
Speaker 2 (15:25):
So, you know, flying over the.
Speaker 4 (15:26):
Antarctic with a solar power aircraft, I think is it's
going to be a real thriller, real highlights something that
we've had on our wish list to arrange a mission
down there, and that's going to be incredibly exciting.
Speaker 1 (15:39):
I think, you know, what I read about that is
very timely because the satellite that was doing that job
as being decommissioned, right, So that's quite an urgent need
that you'll be filling there.
Speaker 3 (15:49):
Yeah. Yeah, I think a lot of people don't realize,
you know, how aerospace technology is as part of their
daily lives, and you know, a lot of the times
we're not talking to the public or people on the media.
Often you know, you get these random questions saying, oh,
you know why don't we just do stuff on Earth.
But you know the reality is a lot of this
technology is helping us to live better on Earth. And
(16:10):
you know, whether you're using GPS to navigate around your town,
or sky TV or all the myriad of technologies that
was really spawned because of the Apollo program and the
massive money that went into that, all that is now
actually part of our everyday lives. So yeah, I think
advanced aviation technology space technology is going to be really
important and it's going to help us to deal with
(16:32):
the problems that we have coming up. And you know,
developing those better technology tools are really going to help
us make informed decisions and navigate our way through this.
Speaker 1 (16:40):
And maybe Mark just recap for us the real value
proposition of care. We hear a lot about. You know,
you've got Dorner Aerospace, which is doing a horizontal takeoff
aircraft to orbit. You've got obviously Rocket Lab is putting
up satellites on a regular basis into low Earth orbit.
Is great and opening up the options, but what you're
(17:02):
really looking at is solar powered gliders that relatively cheaply
you can get up and at a lower altitude, So
you're going to get better resolution for censors and photography
and the like exactly.
Speaker 3 (17:14):
Yeah. I mean there's a lot of great companies in
New Zealand that are delving into the aerospace area. But
you know, at care aerospace, with our solar powered stratospheric aircraft,
it means that we can fly above the weather and
above other air traffic, and so that means we can
fly for long durations. And you know, we'll be targeting
to fly for weeks and months continuously with these solar
(17:36):
powered aircraft. So yeah, that means we have a kind
of unique capability where we can stay over an area
of interest, whether that's a city or a boat or
whatever it is, and basically just stay over there. Governments
around the world are investing in technologies for all sorts
of things such as maritime domain awareness, and so in
(17:56):
New Zealand we're bought for Boeing P eight aircraft. I
think we paid about two billion dollars for those and
then it costs unless that's fifty thousand dollars an hour
to run those things. By time you look at all
the maintenance costs and the crew costs and the fuel costs,
it's quite expensive to have those types of capabilities. So
what we're aiming to do with a sole pat aircraft
(18:18):
and you bring the cost down and extend the capability,
help with high resolution, and you know it all fit
within the network. I mean UAVs at low altitude are
going to do one job, pights are going to be
good for another job, satellites are going to be good
for other tasks, and we want to sort of fit
slot in the middle and offer that unique capability around
(18:38):
staying over an area of interest and doing that cost
effectively providing high resolution.
Speaker 1 (18:43):
One of the big areas investment we've seen in a
very constrained physical time at the moment is the big
defense spend twelve billion going into defense. And one of
the really interesting things there is a real focus on drones.
So you talked about the phs there, but the cost
to go out and look for a sailor lost at
sea with a fully crude P eight and the filiates
(19:05):
hundreds of thousands of dollars. So if you can send
out a UAV like a drone. So the options and
the thinking seems to really be changing all around the
world as the technology improves that the traditional ways of
getting eyes on something or doing an operation. The hardware
you need to do that now is the options are
greatly increasing.
Speaker 3 (19:25):
Yeah, I think we've got a convergence of technologies with
composite materials, solar cells, batteries, computing power, and it all
adds up to enable these new aerospace technologies. So I
think it's quite an exciting time and it's going to
make a big difference and improve the capabilities a lot
of a lot of agencies and organizations.
Speaker 1 (19:47):
So you've got the Atmoss Mark one that your flagship aircraft.
You're developing the Mark two at the moment.
Speaker 3 (19:54):
Yeah, we've got two Mark one aircraft. They're about twelve
and a half meter wingspan and that dawn to us
type aircraft. We've got to find a good weather window
to fly and we can do our testing and get
up to altitudes above fifty sixty thousand feet with those
So fantastic for us to test that technology. And we
are working with customers, We are working with government projects
(20:18):
with those aircraft, which is great. But we've just started
the design process of the Mark two aircraft and really
that enables us to stay up in the air for
weeks and months, means we can have larger battery capacity
to store the energy that we need from the solar
cells to get through the night and then charge up
again the next day.
Speaker 1 (20:37):
Is that, Mike, if you were to sort of put
your finger on the key technical hurdles to overcome with
this is that it keeping an aircraft with a big
wingspan like that power it up on a continuous basis.
Speaker 3 (20:49):
Yeah, I mean, if we look at the Mark one aircraft,
we basically got to the stratosphere on the power of
a hair dryer. We're dealing with one or two killer
watts with these rarely efficient electric motors getting up to
the stratosphere. That's twelve and a half meter wing span.
We're upscaling with the Mark two to about a thirty
meter wing span, but it'll be under one d or
(21:10):
around one hundred and fifty kgs, so it's a very
light aircraft over thirty meters, so it's a very light
glider type aircraft. And yeah, we need to really get
high density batteries that can do the job and charge
up efficiently and have good quality solar cells that it's
(21:31):
going to generate enough input. We're really the two main
challenges we have are mass and energy. You know, we
need to keep the aircraft as light as possible. We
need to make those aircraft as energy efficient as possible
and if we can do that, then that enables us
to stay up there for months and years to come.
You'll have these aircraft that will be able to stay
up there for years.
Speaker 1 (21:51):
And you're taking off from Tafaki that you know, a
great facility on the coast out there at christ Church.
How's that going? I know there was, you know, the
government's really enthusiastic and Judith Collins as Space Minister, there's
a lot of passion for this project. Is a momentum
building towards getting international parties here to use that facility
(22:13):
for launchers.
Speaker 2 (22:14):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (22:14):
Well, Meghan Woods in the last Labor government started off
that the project, which was fantastic. Minister Collins, she's taken
the baton and ran with it. It's fantastic to see
the Tafaki National Aerospace Center to develop that momentum and
they've been sort of finding the strategy that's relevant for them.
And yeah, it's basically become a major R and D
(22:39):
test hub for aerospace companies such as Kia and Dawn
and Aerosearch and SCIOs and a range of other companies.
So New Zealand's really lucky to have that test bed.
It's kind of like a sand pit where we can
go and play with the toys and work out how
to operate safely before we move those technologies into the airspace.
(23:01):
So yeah, it's a great asset and hopefully there's going
to be more airspace opportunities opening up around the country
as well. But for now, you know, to Folk, he's
doing a great job. They've got a good hangar facility,
a one kilmeter runway. Hopefully they can add some more
facilities for more companies in New Zealand and from around
the world to come here and do their test bed work.
Speaker 1 (23:21):
It's a high growth industry. It's surpassed you know, wine
and others. You know, it's definitely getting up there very quickly.
And Rocket Labs obviously at the height of it, has
a big operation in Auckland, has Mahas doing regular launchers there.
But it's by no means just about Rocket Lab now
they are a whole ecosystem of companies. It was interesting
Peter Beck in event at Parliament recently. I was at
(23:43):
and I think the you know, the government has a
goal of increasing the value of the industry by two
billion dollars or something, and he said, look, this internationally
is going to be a multi trillion dollar business. Let's
let's think about two hundred billion. Let's go big, and
what do we need to do to get there? And
he was very much saying we, seriously, we do have
the capability and the skills here and the launch capacity
(24:06):
to actually be a really big player in space. Do
you agree with that sentiment right now?
Speaker 2 (24:11):
I see the advanced aviation is a big one.
Speaker 3 (24:13):
Obviously, you can see around the world there's a lot
of work being done in drones, autonomous flight systems, and
you know a lot of money going into that. And
then you're on top of that. Obviously, the space industry
is another huge growth area. And we're incredibly lucky to
have rocket Lab. Obviously seen investor of rocket Lab back
in two thousand and seven and Peter and I started
commercial operation. Still very pleased to be shareholder, and yeah,
(24:36):
it's been fantastic to see what Peter and the team
have done a rocket Lab. It's a massive success story
for News Element. It really puts us on the international
technology map, and I think we're just scratching the surface
of what's possible in New Zealand. And I'd love to
see ten more rocket labs emerge. And how do we
get the support to those up and coming entrepreneurs and
(24:58):
people with the bright ideas making sure that they do
get the funding, support and the expertise support that they
need to develop those concepts.
Speaker 1 (25:08):
Yeah, and the interesting thing about rocket Lab is, you know,
the public perception is launches rockets, which it does, and
it's working on Neutron, it's bigger rocket, But actually the
bulk of revenue from that company comes from space systems,
from solar panels, from reaction wheels, all of these the
bits that go into spacecraft and satellites. And I think
(25:29):
that you know, that is the less sexy side of
the space sector, but is absolutely crucial. That's key to
getting the value out of being in space, whether it's
cell towers in space or Earth monitoring, remote sensing, all
that sort of thing. I think we definitely have a
bit of growing capability in that space as well, actually
building satellite components and the like.
Speaker 3 (25:49):
Yeah, that's definitely where the biggest business opportunity has always been.
And you know, when we started rocket Lab, you know,
we knew that the launch was going to get a
lot of buzz and hype and interest. But the reality is,
you know, it's that those next phases which actually provide
the big commercial opportunities. You know, we've got that way
(26:10):
of getting to space with rocket Lab. You know, I
don't think we need twenty more ways of getting to space.
I think we do need to focus on those space
systems and you know, how can we develop really interesting
technologies that can be used in space?
Speaker 1 (26:24):
And look, yeah, it was a long time ago now,
but you know, one of your reservations I think at
rocket Lab was being too reliant on military funding and
defense contracts and that. But if you look at where
the world is going now, You've got the Golden Dome
project in the US, You've got every country you know,
it's being told by the US you need to up
your defense spending. So the reality is that's going to
(26:47):
be a bigger opportunity. It's a bigger opportunity in New Zealand,
which is increasing its defense spending. How do you tread
that line in the current environment between being supportive of
your defense sector and its needs for national security, but
not crossing that line into offensive capabilities and supporting them.
Speaker 3 (27:05):
Yeah, I think every board, every CEO of an aerospace
company needs to kind of work out where that ethical
line is for them, and I guess a lot of
is by virtue of the technology they're developing or where
that is going to lead them. But you know, the
rarely is we're in New Zealand, so you know, we
need to adhere to New Zealand law, New Zealand values.
So there's some some things around the offensive capability that
(27:28):
you know maybe wouldn't be quite so palatable here in
New Zealand. I personally think it's good for us to
find our point of difference and use aerospace technology for
environmental disaster response, humanitarian commercial applications. And you know, I'm
seeing you know, most of the aerospace projects are definitely
(27:49):
aligned with the typical New Zealand approach.
Speaker 2 (27:52):
And it gives us a point of difference.
Speaker 3 (27:54):
You know, there's a lot of other countries focused on
offensive capability.
Speaker 2 (27:58):
That's fine.
Speaker 3 (28:00):
You know, there's going to be some New Zealand companies
that want to do that, but the majority of what
we're seeing in the aerospace industry are perfectly aligned with
New Zealand values and how we approach the world.
Speaker 1 (28:12):
Yeah, and ultimately, I think Judith Collins has the ultimate
say on every payload that's launched from New Zealand, so
they check whether that aligns with our policies. It's a
non negotiable thing. So it's good if stuff is getting
launched into space from here, it has to fit our values.
Speaker 2 (28:29):
And I think it's a conversation, the public conversation that
we need to have.
Speaker 3 (28:32):
You know, the world is changing, and you know the
reality is we can't rely on countries like Australia in
the US to protect New Zealand. You know, at some
point we've actually got to fend for ourselves a little
bit because we could get left high and dry, and
you know that's not going to be great either.
Speaker 2 (28:47):
So it's a real type rope that we've got to
walk as a country.
Speaker 1 (28:50):
And an ipart of oil, we've got a vast ocean
to cover. And sure we've had satellites for a long
time looking at dark fleets that are you know, illegally
fishing and all that sort of thing. But and this
is where your technology comes in, just that more nuanced
view and being able to get eyes up there if
there is a disaster, for instance, being able to get
up a glider to give you sensing or observation on
(29:12):
a particular area intently for a period of time. That's
hugely valuable.
Speaker 3 (29:17):
Yeah, I think, you know, the reality is we've got
a lot of data gaps. And you know, you saw
from the Chinese warships that came down through the Tasmin
and they were doing live firing tests and it wasn't
picked up by the Australian orgies in the Defense Forces.
It was picked up by a Virgin Airlines pilot that
was flying over that.
Speaker 2 (29:32):
Sort of live firing.
Speaker 3 (29:34):
So it sort of highlights that, you know, even with
all the billions of dollars that we have in that
capability right now, we can't really track when we know
that there is something going on there, we still can't
really track what is happening. So I think there is
definitely a willingness to increase the capabilities in a wide
range of areas.
Speaker 1 (29:50):
Yeah. So just finally, Mike, you know, when you sort
of ill, you have to tell us about coming back
to Earth from well, I mean, what was out like?
So suddenly you're waitless, you get the signal, get back
into your seat, buckle up, what's it like coming back
the return journey.
Speaker 3 (30:09):
Yeah, well, you know, going up at three four hundred
klimeters an hour, you do it about three g's, which
is like three of your own body weight on top
of you, so you definitely feel it. It's quite exciting,
you know, within a minute, but buckling up, you're starting
to feel the g's going down, and on the way
down you're actually going three thousand, seven hundred cometers per hour,
so even faster, and you're doing five g's, so you
(30:30):
really can feel that, and you're just basically waiting for
the atmosphere to get a little bit thicker to slow
you down, because it's not actually using a kind of
retro thrust all the way down. It's basically just using
friction waiting for more molecules to add up to slow
you down. And I think we slid down to about
six hundred kilometers per hour, and then the drug shoote
(30:52):
deployed and there was a happy moment because you know
you're going to have a better landing if you've got parachutes.
Speaker 2 (30:59):
And then a few seconds later the main shoots deployed.
Speaker 3 (31:03):
So yeah, the reentry was pretty exciting as well, and
a lot of relief when those parachutes deployed.
Speaker 1 (31:10):
The parachutes deployed, and then you're coming down obviously very slowly.
You're seeing the desert out the window. Yeah, and then
was it quite a gentle landing?
Speaker 3 (31:19):
Yeah, I mean you do have rich thro thrusters that
blast just as your land just to soften right things,
and there's a big cloud of dust and it looks
quite dramatic, but when you're in the capsule, it's quite
a soft landing.
Speaker 1 (31:30):
And then someone comes up and opens the door, as
we've seen for astronauts and images from NASA over the decades,
and you step out. What was that feeling like stepping
out onto Terra Firma again.
Speaker 3 (31:42):
Yeah. Yeah, we had had our guests and you know,
the teams there and so that yeah, bit of a celebration.
And then it was great to go out to the
booster to see where that landed, and we met the
full flight team from Blue Origin. So was it real
privileged to meet all of those teams, the people that
made it happen. You know, Blue Origin just such an
incredible company. You know at the moment that you know,
(32:03):
it's a little bit expensive for these tickets, but just
like in the early days of bear travel in the
nineteen twenties, you know, it was a bit expensive, and
now we have air travel that's a lot more affordable.
So you know, the same sort of thing is going
to be happening with spaceflight. You know, Blue Origin they're
doing flights about every month at the moment. They're going
to get that cadence to about every week, and you know,
the prices are going to be coming down over the
(32:25):
next few years.
Speaker 2 (32:26):
So I think a lot of people like me that
had that dream of.
Speaker 3 (32:29):
Going to space, it's going to be more and more
achievable over the next decade.
Speaker 1 (32:34):
Was that enough for you or did it give you
to hunger to spend more time in space?
Speaker 2 (32:38):
Yeah? I would love to go again, but I've got
to run that by my wife.
Speaker 3 (32:41):
But yeah, yeah, I mean it's something I think about
every day.
Speaker 2 (32:46):
You know. It was just such an incredible experience.
Speaker 3 (32:49):
Yeah, I guess I've always been fascinated by space technology,
space travel and something I've thought of a lot about.
Speaker 2 (32:54):
Yeah, it was. It was incredible.
Speaker 1 (32:57):
Well, between the space tourism stuff, as you say, the
price will come down and the frequency will increase. NASA
wants to put a space station around the Moon, so
we're going to see more people going there and then
starship and other craft to come. Mys is the ultimate goal.
So there's going to be a lot more humans in
space in the next decade, isn't there.
Speaker 3 (33:18):
Yep, No, it's I mean it's looking great, and yeah,
I think there's a lot of really exciting technologies that
are coming down the pipe.
Speaker 1 (33:25):
Hopefully we'll play continue to play as a nation and
a great companies play a role in it, and they'll
all be gathering on October the eighth. Any specific theme
to the summit this year.
Speaker 3 (33:36):
Yes, it's about open skies, so it's really investigating the
regulatory opportunities that we have here in New Zealand. So
we're aiming for eight hundred to one thousand attends and
we've got delegations coming from around the world, lots of
countries that want to be part of this event this year,
so it's going to be going to be huge. We've
(33:58):
got international national speakers. It's going to be a big one.
So if you, if anyone is interested in the aerospace industry.
Eighth of October and cross Church.
Speaker 1 (34:07):
Well good luck for the conference and all the best
for these flights with NASA hugely important from a scientific
point of view. So all the best for Atmoss and
what's ahead. Thanks for coming on the Business of Tech.
Thanks better, thanks to Mark Rocket for coming on the
(34:29):
Business of Tech. What incredible experience he had back in July.
Would I want to take a ride on Blue Origins Rocket? Hell? Yeah,
it's risky. Rockets still regularly blow up, But to have
that opportunity to join the exclusive club of people who
have gone to space and look back at Earth is
(34:52):
pretty neat. Blue Origin hasn't disclosed what a seat on
New Shepherd actually costs. I've seen estimates ranging f from
a couple hundred thousand dollars to well over a million.
Let's face it, it will remain the domain of well
healed space tourists for some time to come, and Jeff
Bezos has had plenty of criticism for that. But you know,
(35:14):
the more flights they do on New Shepherd actually does
yield scientific data. It helps lay the foundation for when
commuting to space stations and even bases on the Moon becomes,
if not a normal undertaking, certainly a heck of a
lot more common than it is now. I really like
Mark's commitment to ethical innovation. He believes New Zealand's aerospace
(35:37):
sector should focus on solutions for environmental resilience, humanitarian use,
advanced aviation, sort of staying true to our national values.
But as he admitted, the world is changing and our
values are changing too, And the elephant in the room
is the big spend going on in most Western countries
(35:58):
at the behest off the Trump administration into defense, and
that has implications for the space realm as well. The
Aerospace Summit is set for octoberty eighth in christ Church.
As Mark said, the industry isn't really about launching rockets
by and large, it's about building space systems, the skills,
(36:19):
the ethical frameworks to take full advantage off the multi
billion dollar opportunity that awaits. It's about regulation as well
in creating an environment that encourages innovation in our tahua
as aerospace advances rapidly. So thanks for listening to the
Business of Tech thanks to our sponsor two Degrees. Next week,
(36:40):
two experts join me to unpack what exactly is going
on with tech recruitment in the current weird soft market
in New Zealand and how to dodge the AI filters
when you're applying for your next job. That's next Thursday.
I'll catch you then
Welcome to the Business of Tech powered by Two Degrees Business.
I'm Peter Griffin, and today we're going on a literal
journey above and beyond as we get the inside story
from Mark Rocket, the first key we ever to travel
into space, and a trailblazer who's helping launch New Zealand
into the aerospace age. Mark's recent suborbital mission aboard Blue
(00:26):
Origin's New Shepherd not only fulfilled a lifelong dream for him,
but cemented his place in history as a founder, as
an investor, and a relentless advocate for a growing space sector.
We'll dive into Mark's journey from the early days signing
up with Virgin Galactic to go to space, to his
exhilarating flight with Jeff Bezos's Blue Origin and the powerful
(00:50):
emotions that come from seeing Earth's fragile atmosphere from the
edge of space what's known as the overview effect. But
it's not just about ticking off a bucket for Mark.
At the heart of it lies his vision for Kia Aerospace,
his christ Church based startup, which is building high end
solar powered aircraft to revolutionize things like environmental monitoring and
(01:15):
disaster response right here on Earth. He also talks about
his involvement in Rocket Lab as a pivotal early investor,
walking a fine line on taking defense contracts, and the
growth potential in our burgeon in aerospace sector. Mark is
the President of Aerospace New Zealand and the New Zealand
(01:35):
Aerospace Summit is just around the corner, coming up on
October the eighth in christ Church. Hoping to get along
to it myself. There you'll find industry leaders, government and
global delegations gathering to tackle the future of flight and
open skies. Mark Rocket is the ultimate space enthusiast. He
changed his name to reflect his passion for space rocketry.
(02:00):
Think you'll like his tale of finally making it into space.
Here's Mark Rockett, Mark Rocket. Welcome to the business of tech.
How are you doing.
Speaker 2 (02:12):
I'm very good. Thanks better.
Speaker 1 (02:13):
Well, look it's three months I guess now almost since
your amazing trip into space. The mission aboard Blue Origin's
New Shepherd NS thirty two. I think that was the
twelfth launch by Blue Origin.
Speaker 3 (02:29):
Yes, I think for passengers on board the other payload
type launchers as.
Speaker 1 (02:35):
Well, so it's got a lot of interest at the time,
and even long before that. I think it was yourself
and Derek Handley. I think Derek had signed up with
Virgin Galactic originally to go into space. Were you the
same or were you always with Blue Origin.
Speaker 3 (02:49):
Yeah, I signed up with Virgin Galactic back in two
thousand and six, So yeah, I think I was the
first key we had to confirm and pay for that ticket.
And then yeah, there's a bunch of other keywis that
on board progressively as well. So yeah, I was part
of what they called the founders group with Virgin Galactic,
and there's about eighty of us. They're sort of mixed
(03:10):
up all around the world, different to different people. And yeah,
they got initially they were sort of planning to fly
about twenty eleven twenty twelve with some of the marketing
team we're talking about. But we started to get a
few mixed messages from the technical team saying, you know,
maybe that's not going to quite be possible, and you know,
they had a few ups and downs on the way,
(03:31):
and I got to the point where I was on
the customer list. I think I was SEAK thirty eight,
and they did a few initial flights and then they
decided they wanted to redevelop the vehicle and things have
been put on hold for a few years, and hopefully
they'll kick off again in the next year or two.
But meanwhile I signed up with Blue Origin and I
was lucky enough to get a flight up there this year.
(03:53):
So that was incredible. You know, there's such an amazing
technology company. Yeah, they've just got a real momentum.
Speaker 1 (04:01):
Yeah, and some big names. You're in good company. Not
on the same flight, but Katie Perry, the pop star
obviously was up there. Jeff Bezos himself went on an
earlier flight. So you're joining an elite club of a
small number of people who have got to enjoy this,
but sort of take us through it from the lead
(04:21):
up to it. I guess a lot of preparation is
required to actually go on that very brief trip.
Speaker 3 (04:27):
Yeah, I guess depends, Hoy, you look at it. Basically,
we arrived three days before. I got to know that
the team that first day and gave us our fitted
astronaut suit and Texas Cowboy hat and a few other
bits and pieces, and basically then the second day we
started training in the capsule and that was pretty interesting,
(04:50):
just going through the flight profile and how the day
was going to roll out. And then the second training
day was more more about or phenomenal situations where things
go wrong. If there's a fire, you had to do
emergency egress, all that kind of stuff. And yeah, then
the next day it was flight day, so yeah, it
was really rolled out in a way that was fantastic,
(05:12):
great experience. So yeah, I think everyone felt comfortable by
the time we got to flight day and we were
ready to go.
Speaker 1 (05:18):
And how did they broach the issue of the risk
because this is seriously risky. You know, Blue Origin hasn't
been around for a long time. They've done a lot
of great work. It's obviously a highly regulated industry as well,
but let's face it, you know, the chance of something
going wrong is a bit higher than an other industries.
So where where they quite stark about the risks and
(05:42):
the responsibilities if something goes wrong.
Speaker 3 (05:44):
Yeah, well you sign your life away before you get there.
But yeah, I think there was one person on a
previous flight and he had won a ticket, and I
think he was kind of like a random person in
the population that just happened to win this stick at
the space and never kind of had any aspirations of
going to space or taking on that risk. Of going
to space, and so yeah, when he turned up, apparently
(06:07):
you know, he was asking a few more questions than
their average customer.
Speaker 2 (06:12):
That already knew what they were getting into.
Speaker 3 (06:13):
Certainly, you know there's an element of risk, but you
know when you're driving through the South Island or North Island,
there's an element of risk in anything that you do exactly,
and I felt very comfortable with the approach that Blue
Origin took. I think they've got a great piece of technology,
a great approach to sub little flights.
Speaker 2 (06:31):
So I felt pretty comfortable.
Speaker 1 (06:33):
So, yeah, you do a couple of days of prep.
Were you nervous the night before? Did you sleep? Okay?
Speaker 3 (06:38):
No, Yeah I was. I knew what I was getting into.
I felt pretty excited about it. Yeah, No, I didn't
really have any nerves. I mean maybe just as I
was sort of walking on the gantry on to the capture.
Think there's probably a moment of trepidation, but no, overall
there was the excitement of the moment.
Speaker 1 (06:57):
So you're in your tailor made space suit, which hopefully
you still have. Yep, you got to take that home
with the cowboy hat.
Speaker 2 (07:03):
That's right.
Speaker 1 (07:04):
Tell us what it's like sitting down and getting strapped
into that cockpit essentially, how many if you were in
the spaceship.
Speaker 3 (07:12):
Yeah, there's six people on the flight. I was seat
number six, so I mean that I got on first
and got off last. So yeah, essentially you just walk
in there, and I mean you've done a lot of
those simulations already, so you kind of know exactly what's happening.
But you know, on launch day you are on top
of a whole lot of fuel and there's a little
bit more nervousness. Yeah, basically you're on the capsule for
(07:36):
about twenty or so minutes before they do the countdown.
Speaker 2 (07:39):
Then if you go.
Speaker 1 (07:40):
And it's all automated pretty much, it's all computer controlled.
Speaker 2 (07:43):
Yeah, auto autonomous slash robotic system.
Speaker 1 (07:47):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (07:47):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:47):
And what's the feeling like when you have that much
power underneath? I mean, you've been obsessed with rockets for decades,
you know, the physics off them and that, but to
be actually sitting on top of that much energy going off,
what does that feel like?
Speaker 2 (08:02):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (08:02):
I think a lot of people have gone on roller
coasters and maybe ben and cars going a bit faster
than they should sometimes. I mean, you know, certainly there's
that acceleration was pretty incredible. You know, it starts off
as a smooth elevator ride, but then it just goes
faster and faster, and it builds up the speed when
you're zipping through the clouds and you're above the clouds
(08:23):
and you're watching the control panel go up to three
four hundred kilometers per hour and the blood is pumping
at that point and you can feel the rocket sort
of correcting as it's going up, and that was kind
of probably the highest adrenaline moment. You really feel like
you're on the edge of your seat really pushing it.
So yeah, that felt very full on. And then you
(08:46):
get engine cut off and then a few seconds later
you get stage separation, and then basically the main booster
goes back down and land and the capsule keeps on
going up to one hundred and five kilometers and you know,
within a few seconds of that stage separation, you're in
a zero G environment and you can feel the weightlessness.
So you've got to transition mentally from that kind of adrenaline,
(09:11):
you know, holding on pretty tight to your seat, to
basically the opposite of that. Wee you get to float
around the cabin.
Speaker 1 (09:18):
As you were rocketing up through the atmosphere. Could you
look out the window?
Speaker 2 (09:22):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (09:22):
Another one of the great things about the Blue Origin
ship had capture was it's got a beautiful design. You know,
they tried to make the windows as large as they
possibly could, so yeah, you get a fantastic view all
the way up, all the way up, spectacular, fantastic.
Speaker 1 (09:38):
And describe what it sounds like. Is it loud?
Speaker 3 (09:42):
I was expecting it to be like a Formula one car,
but no, it wasn't as loud as I thought it
would be. And then obviously once you're going faster than
the speed of sound, it gets even quieter. So yeah,
it's I mean, you do we air plugs, but I
don't think you know they they were that necessary.
Speaker 1 (10:01):
So you're sitting there, there's the five other people, I guess,
all looking around with glee on their face or a
bit of panic or what was the vibe in the capsule?
Speaker 3 (10:11):
Yeah, well we had two Americans, a Canadian, American, Panamanian,
Puerto Rican. But yeah, certainly the Americans in particular, you
know that they're pretty big on the.
Speaker 2 (10:22):
Stuff. So yeah, I mean there's definitely a good, good
high energy crew.
Speaker 1 (10:29):
Obviously, the first stage goes back and they land that
back on the tim act, do they.
Speaker 3 (10:33):
Yeah, we live from north northwest Texas, and yeah, basically it's.
Speaker 1 (10:38):
A land range, right, So then that comes back down
and then there's a second stage with the capsule on
the top of it. And does that feel quite different
or is that because it won't have as much thrust
those engines? I guess.
Speaker 2 (10:50):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (10:50):
So at that point you stop accelerating and you're on
a kind of like a parabolic arc.
Speaker 2 (10:55):
We're slowing down and then you'll come back down again.
Speaker 1 (10:58):
And then at some point the just cut out completely.
You're at one hundred kilometers above the earth, over the
Caiman line, and that's when you have your very short
window to unbuckle, be weightless and spend a bit of
time looking back at the Earth.
Speaker 2 (11:14):
What was that like the state separation?
Speaker 3 (11:16):
I think it's around fifty five kilometers altitude and from
you know, that's about sixty kilometers on the way. That's
when you're in that zero gravity for about two and
a half minutes. You know, from sixty five kilometers you're
basically going up to one hundred and five kilometers and yeah,
at that point, you know, you can feel the weightlessness
and do flips and other cool stuff, and looking out
(11:37):
the window, it was incredible to see the atmosphere and
the blackness of space is quite a powerful feeling. Seeing
the context of the Earth and the Sun. It was
quite an emotional experience.
Speaker 1 (11:51):
So obviously you saw that the sun. Could you see
other planets in the moon as well?
Speaker 3 (11:56):
No, on the Moon wasn't kind of visible from where
we were. And yeah, I mean, but basically because it's daylight,
the sunlight basically means you just see the blackness of space.
Speaker 1 (12:08):
Well, it must have been surreal. So you know, they
do talk about you've heard about the overview effect. Did
you experience that where it sort of changes your perspective
on everything when you see the Earth from space?
Speaker 3 (12:20):
Yeah, I mean again, I think you know, you do
get that real emotional impact when you see the context.
You know of how thin the atmosphere is, and you
know a lot of people they don't really think that
they see this big blue sky, but you know, the
reality is we can only live in the bottom of
five kilometers of the atmosphere. You know, there are no
habitations higher than five kilometers altitude. So the part with
(12:44):
the oxygen that we breathe and live, and you know
that biosphees it's very thin, and you know, by the
time you're up to one hundred kilometers, there is you know,
not very much atmosphere left. That's what they call it
space effectively. I mean, it does obviously dissipate gradually, even
fear even higher. But the reality is once you're over
one hundred chlometers, you know, most of the atmosphere is
(13:07):
below you, and it's like the skin of an apple.
Speaker 2 (13:10):
I mean, I already knew about that.
Speaker 3 (13:11):
And obviously we all have seen a lot of stuff
about climate change, and yeah, it really historically shows really
the context of our environment.
Speaker 1 (13:20):
Yeah, a lot of astronauts who have come back have
talked about that. Just the fragility of Earth when you
see it from space and has reinforced I think for
a lot of them what the real mission is, which
is you sort of go to space to explore and
to new frontiers, but it's also about taking care of
(13:40):
what we have back on Earth. And that really, I
guess is part of your mission at Kia, your company,
Kia Aerospace, which is looking back down at Earth to
basically observe the Earth in order to look after the
Earth better.
Speaker 3 (13:54):
Yeah, yeah, I think you know, obviously we just got
a little bit of a taste of that, but if
you are in orbit and you're spending hours, weeks or
months and all that, it must be a really profound experience.
And obviously a lot of atauts do come back with
a heightened awareness of the environment and looking after the planet.
Speaker 2 (14:11):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (14:12):
At Key Aerospace, you know, we're building a flying Strata
Spirit aircraft, solar powered, and one of the key applications
I'm excited about is that environmental monitoring and giving more frequent,
high resolution data to help us make informed decisions about
land used.
Speaker 2 (14:28):
Water use, water quality use.
Speaker 3 (14:29):
And they can be used for disaster response and telecommunications
a wide range of other aspects. But yeah, certainly with
observation is a key application.
Speaker 1 (14:38):
Yeah. And look, it's been quite a big year for
you personally obviously with that incredible mission, but also for
the company as well. Just literally in the last week
a really interesting partnership through year partnership with NASA that
you've signed with government funding from mb here, and that's
very much about monitoring water quality, isn't it using your
(14:59):
aircraft to help NASA and New Zealand actually monitor water
quality around the country.
Speaker 3 (15:04):
Yeah, we announced that one a few months ago, and
but yeah, we're very excited to work with some teams
that at NASA on coastal water monitoring. Hopefully that leads
on to other projects. But yeh, there was another project
you're probably alluding to, which is essentially flying over the
Antarctic to monitor the Ozone hole and that'll be in
the next three to five years.
Speaker 2 (15:25):
So, you know, flying over the.
Speaker 4 (15:26):
Antarctic with a solar power aircraft, I think is it's
going to be a real thriller, real highlights something that
we've had on our wish list to arrange a mission
down there, and that's going to be incredibly exciting.
Speaker 1 (15:39):
I think, you know, what I read about that is
very timely because the satellite that was doing that job
as being decommissioned, right, So that's quite an urgent need
that you'll be filling there.
Speaker 3 (15:49):
Yeah. Yeah, I think a lot of people don't realize,
you know, how aerospace technology is as part of their
daily lives, and you know, a lot of the times
we're not talking to the public or people on the media.
Often you know, you get these random questions saying, oh,
you know why don't we just do stuff on Earth.
But you know the reality is a lot of this
technology is helping us to live better on Earth. And
(16:10):
you know, whether you're using GPS to navigate around your town,
or sky TV or all the myriad of technologies that
was really spawned because of the Apollo program and the
massive money that went into that, all that is now
actually part of our everyday lives. So yeah, I think
advanced aviation technology space technology is going to be really
important and it's going to help us to deal with
(16:32):
the problems that we have coming up. And you know,
developing those better technology tools are really going to help
us make informed decisions and navigate our way through this.
Speaker 1 (16:40):
And maybe Mark just recap for us the real value
proposition of care. We hear a lot about. You know,
you've got Dorner Aerospace, which is doing a horizontal takeoff
aircraft to orbit. You've got obviously Rocket Lab is putting
up satellites on a regular basis into low Earth orbit.
Is great and opening up the options, but what you're
(17:02):
really looking at is solar powered gliders that relatively cheaply
you can get up and at a lower altitude, So
you're going to get better resolution for censors and photography
and the like exactly.
Speaker 3 (17:14):
Yeah. I mean there's a lot of great companies in
New Zealand that are delving into the aerospace area. But
you know, at care aerospace, with our solar powered stratospheric aircraft,
it means that we can fly above the weather and
above other air traffic, and so that means we can
fly for long durations. And you know, we'll be targeting
to fly for weeks and months continuously with these solar
(17:36):
powered aircraft. So yeah, that means we have a kind
of unique capability where we can stay over an area
of interest, whether that's a city or a boat or
whatever it is, and basically just stay over there. Governments
around the world are investing in technologies for all sorts
of things such as maritime domain awareness, and so in
(17:56):
New Zealand we're bought for Boeing P eight aircraft. I
think we paid about two billion dollars for those and
then it costs unless that's fifty thousand dollars an hour
to run those things. By time you look at all
the maintenance costs and the crew costs and the fuel costs,
it's quite expensive to have those types of capabilities. So
what we're aiming to do with a sole pat aircraft
(18:18):
and you bring the cost down and extend the capability,
help with high resolution, and you know it all fit
within the network. I mean UAVs at low altitude are
going to do one job, pights are going to be
good for another job, satellites are going to be good
for other tasks, and we want to sort of fit
slot in the middle and offer that unique capability around
(18:38):
staying over an area of interest and doing that cost
effectively providing high resolution.
Speaker 1 (18:43):
One of the big areas investment we've seen in a
very constrained physical time at the moment is the big
defense spend twelve billion going into defense. And one of
the really interesting things there is a real focus on drones.
So you talked about the phs there, but the cost
to go out and look for a sailor lost at
sea with a fully crude P eight and the filiates
(19:05):
hundreds of thousands of dollars. So if you can send
out a UAV like a drone. So the options and
the thinking seems to really be changing all around the
world as the technology improves that the traditional ways of
getting eyes on something or doing an operation. The hardware
you need to do that now is the options are
greatly increasing.
Speaker 3 (19:25):
Yeah, I think we've got a convergence of technologies with
composite materials, solar cells, batteries, computing power, and it all
adds up to enable these new aerospace technologies. So I
think it's quite an exciting time and it's going to
make a big difference and improve the capabilities a lot
of a lot of agencies and organizations.
Speaker 1 (19:47):
So you've got the Atmoss Mark one that your flagship aircraft.
You're developing the Mark two at the moment.
Speaker 3 (19:54):
Yeah, we've got two Mark one aircraft. They're about twelve
and a half meter wingspan and that dawn to us
type aircraft. We've got to find a good weather window
to fly and we can do our testing and get
up to altitudes above fifty sixty thousand feet with those
So fantastic for us to test that technology. And we
are working with customers, We are working with government projects
(20:18):
with those aircraft, which is great. But we've just started
the design process of the Mark two aircraft and really
that enables us to stay up in the air for
weeks and months, means we can have larger battery capacity
to store the energy that we need from the solar
cells to get through the night and then charge up
again the next day.
Speaker 1 (20:37):
Is that, Mike, if you were to sort of put
your finger on the key technical hurdles to overcome with
this is that it keeping an aircraft with a big
wingspan like that power it up on a continuous basis.
Speaker 3 (20:49):
Yeah, I mean, if we look at the Mark one aircraft,
we basically got to the stratosphere on the power of
a hair dryer. We're dealing with one or two killer
watts with these rarely efficient electric motors getting up to
the stratosphere. That's twelve and a half meter wing span.
We're upscaling with the Mark two to about a thirty
meter wing span, but it'll be under one d or
(21:10):
around one hundred and fifty kgs, so it's a very
light aircraft over thirty meters, so it's a very light
glider type aircraft. And yeah, we need to really get
high density batteries that can do the job and charge
up efficiently and have good quality solar cells that it's
(21:31):
going to generate enough input. We're really the two main
challenges we have are mass and energy. You know, we
need to keep the aircraft as light as possible. We
need to make those aircraft as energy efficient as possible
and if we can do that, then that enables us
to stay up there for months and years to come.
You'll have these aircraft that will be able to stay
up there for years.
Speaker 1 (21:51):
And you're taking off from Tafaki that you know, a
great facility on the coast out there at christ Church.
How's that going? I know there was, you know, the
government's really enthusiastic and Judith Collins as Space Minister, there's
a lot of passion for this project. Is a momentum
building towards getting international parties here to use that facility
(22:13):
for launchers.
Speaker 2 (22:14):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (22:14):
Well, Meghan Woods in the last Labor government started off
that the project, which was fantastic. Minister Collins, she's taken
the baton and ran with it. It's fantastic to see
the Tafaki National Aerospace Center to develop that momentum and
they've been sort of finding the strategy that's relevant for them.
And yeah, it's basically become a major R and D
(22:39):
test hub for aerospace companies such as Kia and Dawn
and Aerosearch and SCIOs and a range of other companies.
So New Zealand's really lucky to have that test bed.
It's kind of like a sand pit where we can
go and play with the toys and work out how
to operate safely before we move those technologies into the airspace.
(23:01):
So yeah, it's a great asset and hopefully there's going
to be more airspace opportunities opening up around the country
as well. But for now, you know, to Folk, he's
doing a great job. They've got a good hangar facility,
a one kilmeter runway. Hopefully they can add some more
facilities for more companies in New Zealand and from around
the world to come here and do their test bed work.
Speaker 1 (23:21):
It's a high growth industry. It's surpassed you know, wine
and others. You know, it's definitely getting up there very quickly.
And Rocket Labs obviously at the height of it, has
a big operation in Auckland, has Mahas doing regular launchers there.
But it's by no means just about Rocket Lab now
they are a whole ecosystem of companies. It was interesting
Peter Beck in event at Parliament recently. I was at
(23:43):
and I think the you know, the government has a
goal of increasing the value of the industry by two
billion dollars or something, and he said, look, this internationally
is going to be a multi trillion dollar business. Let's
let's think about two hundred billion. Let's go big, and
what do we need to do to get there? And
he was very much saying we, seriously, we do have
the capability and the skills here and the launch capacity
(24:06):
to actually be a really big player in space. Do
you agree with that sentiment right now?
Speaker 2 (24:11):
I see the advanced aviation is a big one.
Speaker 3 (24:13):
Obviously, you can see around the world there's a lot
of work being done in drones, autonomous flight systems, and
you know a lot of money going into that. And
then you're on top of that. Obviously, the space industry
is another huge growth area. And we're incredibly lucky to
have rocket Lab. Obviously seen investor of rocket Lab back
in two thousand and seven and Peter and I started
commercial operation. Still very pleased to be shareholder, and yeah,
(24:36):
it's been fantastic to see what Peter and the team
have done a rocket Lab. It's a massive success story
for News Element. It really puts us on the international
technology map, and I think we're just scratching the surface
of what's possible in New Zealand. And I'd love to
see ten more rocket labs emerge. And how do we
get the support to those up and coming entrepreneurs and
(24:58):
people with the bright ideas making sure that they do
get the funding, support and the expertise support that they
need to develop those concepts.
Speaker 1 (25:08):
Yeah, and the interesting thing about rocket Lab is, you know,
the public perception is launches rockets, which it does, and
it's working on Neutron, it's bigger rocket, But actually the
bulk of revenue from that company comes from space systems,
from solar panels, from reaction wheels, all of these the
bits that go into spacecraft and satellites. And I think
(25:29):
that you know, that is the less sexy side of
the space sector, but is absolutely crucial. That's key to
getting the value out of being in space, whether it's
cell towers in space or Earth monitoring, remote sensing, all
that sort of thing. I think we definitely have a
bit of growing capability in that space as well, actually
building satellite components and the like.
Speaker 3 (25:49):
Yeah, that's definitely where the biggest business opportunity has always been.
And you know, when we started rocket Lab, you know,
we knew that the launch was going to get a
lot of buzz and hype and interest. But the reality is,
you know, it's that those next phases which actually provide
the big commercial opportunities. You know, we've got that way
(26:10):
of getting to space with rocket Lab. You know, I
don't think we need twenty more ways of getting to space.
I think we do need to focus on those space
systems and you know, how can we develop really interesting
technologies that can be used in space?
Speaker 1 (26:24):
And look, yeah, it was a long time ago now,
but you know, one of your reservations I think at
rocket Lab was being too reliant on military funding and
defense contracts and that. But if you look at where
the world is going now, You've got the Golden Dome
project in the US, You've got every country you know,
it's being told by the US you need to up
your defense spending. So the reality is that's going to
(26:47):
be a bigger opportunity. It's a bigger opportunity in New Zealand,
which is increasing its defense spending. How do you tread
that line in the current environment between being supportive of
your defense sector and its needs for national security, but
not crossing that line into offensive capabilities and supporting them.
Speaker 3 (27:05):
Yeah, I think every board, every CEO of an aerospace
company needs to kind of work out where that ethical
line is for them, and I guess a lot of
is by virtue of the technology they're developing or where
that is going to lead them. But you know, the
rarely is we're in New Zealand, so you know, we
need to adhere to New Zealand law, New Zealand values.
So there's some some things around the offensive capability that
(27:28):
you know maybe wouldn't be quite so palatable here in
New Zealand. I personally think it's good for us to
find our point of difference and use aerospace technology for
environmental disaster response, humanitarian commercial applications. And you know, I'm
seeing you know, most of the aerospace projects are definitely
(27:49):
aligned with the typical New Zealand approach.
Speaker 2 (27:52):
And it gives us a point of difference.
Speaker 3 (27:54):
You know, there's a lot of other countries focused on
offensive capability.
Speaker 2 (27:58):
That's fine.
Speaker 3 (28:00):
You know, there's going to be some New Zealand companies
that want to do that, but the majority of what
we're seeing in the aerospace industry are perfectly aligned with
New Zealand values and how we approach the world.
Speaker 1 (28:12):
Yeah, and ultimately, I think Judith Collins has the ultimate
say on every payload that's launched from New Zealand, so
they check whether that aligns with our policies. It's a
non negotiable thing. So it's good if stuff is getting
launched into space from here, it has to fit our values.
Speaker 2 (28:29):
And I think it's a conversation, the public conversation that
we need to have.
Speaker 3 (28:32):
You know, the world is changing, and you know the
reality is we can't rely on countries like Australia in
the US to protect New Zealand. You know, at some
point we've actually got to fend for ourselves a little
bit because we could get left high and dry, and
you know that's not going to be great either.
Speaker 2 (28:47):
So it's a real type rope that we've got to
walk as a country.
Speaker 1 (28:50):
And an ipart of oil, we've got a vast ocean
to cover. And sure we've had satellites for a long
time looking at dark fleets that are you know, illegally
fishing and all that sort of thing. But and this
is where your technology comes in, just that more nuanced
view and being able to get eyes up there if
there is a disaster, for instance, being able to get
up a glider to give you sensing or observation on
(29:12):
a particular area intently for a period of time. That's
hugely valuable.
Speaker 3 (29:17):
Yeah, I think, you know, the reality is we've got
a lot of data gaps. And you know, you saw
from the Chinese warships that came down through the Tasmin
and they were doing live firing tests and it wasn't
picked up by the Australian orgies in the Defense Forces.
It was picked up by a Virgin Airlines pilot that
was flying over that.
Speaker 2 (29:32):
Sort of live firing.
Speaker 3 (29:34):
So it sort of highlights that, you know, even with
all the billions of dollars that we have in that
capability right now, we can't really track when we know
that there is something going on there, we still can't
really track what is happening. So I think there is
definitely a willingness to increase the capabilities in a wide
range of areas.
Speaker 1 (29:50):
Yeah. So just finally, Mike, you know, when you sort
of ill, you have to tell us about coming back
to Earth from well, I mean, what was out like?
So suddenly you're waitless, you get the signal, get back
into your seat, buckle up, what's it like coming back
the return journey.
Speaker 3 (30:09):
Yeah, well, you know, going up at three four hundred
klimeters an hour, you do it about three g's, which
is like three of your own body weight on top
of you, so you definitely feel it. It's quite exciting,
you know, within a minute, but buckling up, you're starting
to feel the g's going down, and on the way
down you're actually going three thousand, seven hundred cometers per hour,
so even faster, and you're doing five g's, so you
(30:30):
really can feel that, and you're just basically waiting for
the atmosphere to get a little bit thicker to slow
you down, because it's not actually using a kind of
retro thrust all the way down. It's basically just using
friction waiting for more molecules to add up to slow
you down. And I think we slid down to about
six hundred kilometers per hour, and then the drug shoote
(30:52):
deployed and there was a happy moment because you know
you're going to have a better landing if you've got parachutes.
Speaker 2 (30:59):
And then a few seconds later the main shoots deployed.
Speaker 3 (31:03):
So yeah, the reentry was pretty exciting as well, and
a lot of relief when those parachutes deployed.
Speaker 1 (31:10):
The parachutes deployed, and then you're coming down obviously very slowly.
You're seeing the desert out the window. Yeah, and then
was it quite a gentle landing?
Speaker 3 (31:19):
Yeah, I mean you do have rich thro thrusters that
blast just as your land just to soften right things,
and there's a big cloud of dust and it looks
quite dramatic, but when you're in the capsule, it's quite
a soft landing.
Speaker 1 (31:30):
And then someone comes up and opens the door, as
we've seen for astronauts and images from NASA over the decades,
and you step out. What was that feeling like stepping
out onto Terra Firma again.
Speaker 3 (31:42):
Yeah. Yeah, we had had our guests and you know,
the teams there and so that yeah, bit of a celebration.
And then it was great to go out to the
booster to see where that landed, and we met the
full flight team from Blue Origin. So was it real
privileged to meet all of those teams, the people that
made it happen. You know, Blue Origin just such an
incredible company. You know at the moment that you know,
(32:03):
it's a little bit expensive for these tickets, but just
like in the early days of bear travel in the
nineteen twenties, you know, it was a bit expensive, and
now we have air travel that's a lot more affordable.
So you know, the same sort of thing is going
to be happening with spaceflight. You know, Blue Origin they're
doing flights about every month at the moment. They're going
to get that cadence to about every week, and you know,
the prices are going to be coming down over the
(32:25):
next few years.
Speaker 2 (32:26):
So I think a lot of people like me that
had that dream of.
Speaker 3 (32:29):
Going to space, it's going to be more and more
achievable over the next decade.
Speaker 1 (32:34):
Was that enough for you or did it give you
to hunger to spend more time in space?
Speaker 2 (32:38):
Yeah? I would love to go again, but I've got
to run that by my wife.
Speaker 3 (32:41):
But yeah, yeah, I mean it's something I think about
every day.
Speaker 2 (32:46):
You know. It was just such an incredible experience.
Speaker 3 (32:49):
Yeah, I guess I've always been fascinated by space technology,
space travel and something I've thought of a lot about.
Speaker 2 (32:54):
Yeah, it was. It was incredible.
Speaker 1 (32:57):
Well, between the space tourism stuff, as you say, the
price will come down and the frequency will increase. NASA
wants to put a space station around the Moon, so
we're going to see more people going there and then
starship and other craft to come. Mys is the ultimate goal.
So there's going to be a lot more humans in
space in the next decade, isn't there.
Speaker 3 (33:18):
Yep, No, it's I mean it's looking great, and yeah,
I think there's a lot of really exciting technologies that
are coming down the pipe.
Speaker 1 (33:25):
Hopefully we'll play continue to play as a nation and
a great companies play a role in it, and they'll
all be gathering on October the eighth. Any specific theme
to the summit this year.
Speaker 3 (33:36):
Yes, it's about open skies, so it's really investigating the
regulatory opportunities that we have here in New Zealand. So
we're aiming for eight hundred to one thousand attends and
we've got delegations coming from around the world, lots of
countries that want to be part of this event this year,
so it's going to be going to be huge. We've
(33:58):
got international national speakers. It's going to be a big one.
So if you, if anyone is interested in the aerospace industry.
Eighth of October and cross Church.
Speaker 1 (34:07):
Well good luck for the conference and all the best
for these flights with NASA hugely important from a scientific
point of view. So all the best for Atmoss and
what's ahead. Thanks for coming on the Business of Tech.
Thanks better, thanks to Mark Rocket for coming on the
(34:29):
Business of Tech. What incredible experience he had back in July.
Would I want to take a ride on Blue Origins Rocket? Hell? Yeah,
it's risky. Rockets still regularly blow up, But to have
that opportunity to join the exclusive club of people who
have gone to space and look back at Earth is
(34:52):
pretty neat. Blue Origin hasn't disclosed what a seat on
New Shepherd actually costs. I've seen estimates ranging f from
a couple hundred thousand dollars to well over a million.
Let's face it, it will remain the domain of well
healed space tourists for some time to come, and Jeff
Bezos has had plenty of criticism for that. But you know,
(35:14):
the more flights they do on New Shepherd actually does
yield scientific data. It helps lay the foundation for when
commuting to space stations and even bases on the Moon becomes,
if not a normal undertaking, certainly a heck of a
lot more common than it is now. I really like
Mark's commitment to ethical innovation. He believes New Zealand's aerospace
(35:37):
sector should focus on solutions for environmental resilience, humanitarian use,
advanced aviation, sort of staying true to our national values.
But as he admitted, the world is changing and our
values are changing too, And the elephant in the room
is the big spend going on in most Western countries
(35:58):
at the behest off the Trump administration into defense, and
that has implications for the space realm as well. The
Aerospace Summit is set for octoberty eighth in christ Church.
As Mark said, the industry isn't really about launching rockets
by and large, it's about building space systems, the skills,
(36:19):
the ethical frameworks to take full advantage off the multi
billion dollar opportunity that awaits. It's about regulation as well
in creating an environment that encourages innovation in our tahua
as aerospace advances rapidly. So thanks for listening to the
Business of Tech thanks to our sponsor two Degrees. Next week,
(36:40):
two experts join me to unpack what exactly is going
on with tech recruitment in the current weird soft market
in New Zealand and how to dodge the AI filters
when you're applying for your next job. That's next Thursday.
I'll catch you then
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.