Peacekeeping in Ukraine will be an extensive operation, according to one expert.
UK Prime Minister Sir Keir Starmer has rallied together leaders from Europe, Canada, Australia and New Zealand for a virtual meeting that he's dubbed the 'coalition of the willing'.
Discussions focused on supporting Ukraine to achieve lasting peace.
Kiwi K.A.R.E founder Tenby Powell says a peacekeeping force will need to cover a large frontline.
"The question that I would ask the Minister of Defence is - do we have the numbers to be able to make a sustained effort. So we're making an impactful and meaningful contribution."
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Speaker 1 (00:06):
You're listening to the Sunday Session podcast with Francesca Rudkin
from News talksb Now.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
A call last night between Ukraine allies the Coalition of
the Willing is said to have moved peacekeeping plans into
an operational phase of planning. The call, led by UK
Prime Minister Keir Starmer, included Christopher Luxen and world leaders
from across the EU, Canada and Australia kairs. Darmer said
the group was growing and gathering political and military momentum.
(00:34):
He also called for maximum pressure to be placed on Russia.
We get to hear from Christopher Luxen, who was on
a plane to India straight after the meeting, but he
posted his support in social media, saying New Zealand stands
shoulder to shoulder with Ukraine to talk through what is
required by this coalition in a peacekeeping role. I am
joined by Temb Powell. tenB is the chairman of humanitarian
(00:56):
organization keywek Care. He was also Deputy Chief of the
UN Peacekeeping Mission in South Lebanon in two thousand and
one and two thousand and two, and Temb Pale joins
me now good to have you with us.
Speaker 3 (01:07):
Ten Be good morning Francesca.
Speaker 2 (01:09):
Now this ongoing dialogue between countries, is it significant and
important that these talks and calls are going on alongside
the CEASEFI negotiations.
Speaker 3 (01:20):
That's incredibly important.
Speaker 4 (01:21):
The reality is that the situation surrounding Ukraine's borders as
a stark example of geopolitical injustice. And I'm very hardened
to hear that Prime Minister luxem is standing firm in
New Zealand's support for Ukraine.
Speaker 2 (01:35):
Tenby what kind of commitment does Ukraine need from these countries?
Speaker 4 (01:39):
Well, look, it needs a lot on the one hand,
but I think it's very important to understand that the
United States is consistently parroting Kremlin propaganda, arguing for peace
at any cost to Ukraine, as they tell the world
because Ukraine is losing, is simply not true, and I
think it's important that we understand what this means for Ukraine.
(02:02):
The thought of losing a very large part of the
Dons area that Russia currently occupies would be inconceivable, and I, Francesca,
always encourage those that say peace at all costs for
Ukraine to consider how you would feel, how would we
feel about losing the lower half of the South Island
losing Canterbury, Otago and Southland, it would be inconceivable for
(02:24):
New Zealanders.
Speaker 2 (02:25):
Kirs Starmer has asked for pressure to be put on Russia.
How does this play out? I mean, what kind of
position or Russian in Russia in here?
Speaker 3 (02:34):
Well, I've looked. I think they're in a precarious position.
In fact, the UK.
Speaker 4 (02:41):
Defense Intelligence Agency suggests that Russia is now at a
culminating point, having used some ninety five percent of its
war fighting personnel and assets, and the belief is that
by May twenty twenty five it'll be estimated that Russian
casualties will reach one million people. Can you imagine that
this is a staggering figure.
Speaker 2 (03:01):
Okay, back to the peacekeeping role. What is a peacekeeper
role going to require?
Speaker 4 (03:09):
Well, people must understand peacekeeping operations, as you know, a
very light touch compared to war fighting. The reality is
that trained soldiers wolf fighters are only those that can
conduct peacekeeping operations. And the operations of this nature are
very intensive for the contributing countries. They require significant resources,
(03:31):
training and logistical support, and specifically they require an ongoing
level of training at home that requires consistency of effort
and a very high quality of training delivery, which means
that some of our best become trainers. The re equipping
of troops is expensive and we can expect in Ukraine
(03:52):
the operational environment to be very dynamic and come with
complex mandates.
Speaker 2 (03:57):
So who's in the best position to provide this?
Speaker 4 (04:01):
Well, there needs to be a coalition lead entity from
Europe and some way. And you know, it's very interesting
post bricksit for the United Kingdom to be leading this
in such a way. I'm thrilled that they are. I
think they bring an awful lot to the party, experience,
knowledge and a great level head. I'm very impressed what
Kostam is doing in respect of this, you know, with
(04:24):
the conversations, ditto Machron from France and other countries.
Speaker 3 (04:29):
But it needs to be an EU lent entity in
my view.
Speaker 2 (04:33):
So what realistically can New Zealand provide in a peacekeeping capacity?
Does it come down to, as you mentioned, they're the training, Well.
Speaker 4 (04:40):
It comes down to training, It comes down to assets
and material and it comes down to rotation of you know,
of the entities that go in And I don't know
what's being discussed, but we are talking about a twelve
hundred kilometer zero line, so a front line that would
need to be in some way police operating in a
(05:01):
very harsh and dangerous environment amongst cities, towns and villages
that are mostly destroyed in the areas that I'm thinking
of right now. And you know, it comes with the
inherent risk of Russia breaching various agreements who could be
made around peace accords, and they've got a huge history
(05:22):
of doing exactly that.
Speaker 2 (05:23):
So just falling on from what you said there, you know,
it is important to keep in mind what is awaiting
any deployment. And you'll be well across this from your work,
what kind of environment are they going to be arriving
to and working in.
Speaker 4 (05:36):
Well, the environment is I mean, it's climatically very harsh.
It's either very whole or miserably cold. So that's the
first thing. So I mean New Zealand is very adaptable.
We have an incredible our service men and women in
the Navy, the Army and the Air Force are some
of the best in the world. But as I said,
this is an intensive operation and it's going to need
(05:58):
multiple rotations to make a meaningful contribution.
Speaker 3 (06:01):
And you know, the.
Speaker 4 (06:02):
Question that I would ask, and it's a question that
the media should be asking the Ministry of Affair is
do we have the numbers to be able to make
a sustained effort? So we're making an impactful and meaningful
contribution to peace support operations.
Speaker 2 (06:15):
Yeah, as you say, it's going to be very intensive,
but it's also going to be a long road because
there's the peacekeeping, but then there's also the rebuilding. What's
required there? How long could that take and what's going
to be needed to get that done?
Speaker 4 (06:29):
Yeah, well, look, rebuilding something completely different again, and there's
a huge opportunity for New Zealand as a consequence of
having made a significant contribution to be a part of
rebuilding activities in the future. But that very much still
is in the future. There would need to be a
sustained and just peace for that to happen. And the
rebuilding is we're talking trillions and trillions of dollars to
(06:49):
rebuild the parts of the dom Bass that we operate in,
and we are obviously behind the Ukrainians and the humanitarian
work that we do, but you know, the reports of
mass destruction in and around the dom Bass of the
Russian occupied area, I think a very and so rebuilding
would be a phenomenal global task that would need massive
(07:11):
cooperation in the future, but that is separate to peace
support operations.
Speaker 2 (07:15):
Yeah, look ten be the work you and your charity
Key we Care have done over the last two and
a bit years in this humanitarian role. How important is
that for what comes next for any peacekeeping work in rebuild.
Speaker 4 (07:27):
Well, we've always said that it would be great to
be able to conduct the operations that we do in
terms of humanitarian work without being fired out, without having
the risk that that comes with it under the this
in the current environment, So if there was a cease fire,
we'd be able to do a lot more, a lot quicker.
And there is as part of peace support operations, there
(07:50):
is the winning of hearts and minds, and that that's
an absolute fact. Whether it came down to countries, you know,
permitting their soldiers in situe to carry humanitarian aid remains
to be seen and everybody would have a different view
on that. But if New Zealand was open to those discussions,
it would make a material difference to the effort that
ki we Care and others could make in terms of
(08:12):
delivering both medical aid and humanitarian aid forward.
Speaker 2 (08:16):
And you kind of touched on it. They're the importance
of the relationships that are built in order to get
things done. That's important, isn't it.
Speaker 4 (08:24):
It's critical, absolutely critical, And why there would be as
there would always be the case with a significant language barrier,
there would be Ukrainian liaison offices appointed to various units
and sub units, whatever that strength is, whatever that composition is.
Speaker 3 (08:39):
But at the end of the.
Speaker 4 (08:40):
Day, you know, New Zealanders excel at this. You know,
we have a long history of very successful winning of
hearts and minds and some very hostile environments, and I
would see that continuing in Ukraine absolutely so.
Speaker 2 (08:55):
Ten be looking at the way negotiations and talks are going,
how confident are you that we could see a ceasefire soon?
Speaker 3 (09:03):
I'm not confident at all.
Speaker 4 (09:04):
You know, again I repeat that Russia has breached cease
fire agreements and they've made it.
Speaker 3 (09:11):
They've delivered now.
Speaker 4 (09:12):
A set of terms that are really impossible for Ukraine
or Europe to agree to. And it's very important to
remember that Ukraine is the only dam between Russia and
certainly Eastern Europe and quite possibly Western Europe holding back
imperialistic expansionist aspirations by Pertin and so you know, to
(09:33):
have a set of terms laid down around oh, you know,
not training during this period of time, no arms coming
into Ukraine to augment them, while everybody knows that Russia
will be doing exactly that, they will be recomposing themselves
to step off again in the future.
Speaker 2 (09:49):
Tm B Pal, thank you so much for your time
this morning. Really appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (09:54):
For more from the Sunday session with Francesca Rudkin, listen
live to News Talks the B from nine am Sunday,
or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.
You're listening to the Sunday Session podcast with Francesca Rudkin
from News talksb Now.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
A call last night between Ukraine allies the Coalition of
the Willing is said to have moved peacekeeping plans into
an operational phase of planning. The call, led by UK
Prime Minister Keir Starmer, included Christopher Luxen and world leaders
from across the EU, Canada and Australia kairs. Darmer said
the group was growing and gathering political and military momentum.
(00:34):
He also called for maximum pressure to be placed on Russia.
We get to hear from Christopher Luxen, who was on
a plane to India straight after the meeting, but he
posted his support in social media, saying New Zealand stands
shoulder to shoulder with Ukraine to talk through what is
required by this coalition in a peacekeeping role. I am
joined by Temb Powell. tenB is the chairman of humanitarian
(00:56):
organization keywek Care. He was also Deputy Chief of the
UN Peacekeeping Mission in South Lebanon in two thousand and
one and two thousand and two, and Temb Pale joins
me now good to have you with us.
Speaker 3 (01:07):
Ten Be good morning Francesca.
Speaker 2 (01:09):
Now this ongoing dialogue between countries, is it significant and
important that these talks and calls are going on alongside
the CEASEFI negotiations.
Speaker 3 (01:20):
That's incredibly important.
Speaker 4 (01:21):
The reality is that the situation surrounding Ukraine's borders as
a stark example of geopolitical injustice. And I'm very hardened
to hear that Prime Minister luxem is standing firm in
New Zealand's support for Ukraine.
Speaker 2 (01:35):
Tenby what kind of commitment does Ukraine need from these countries?
Speaker 4 (01:39):
Well, look, it needs a lot on the one hand,
but I think it's very important to understand that the
United States is consistently parroting Kremlin propaganda, arguing for peace
at any cost to Ukraine, as they tell the world
because Ukraine is losing, is simply not true, and I
think it's important that we understand what this means for Ukraine.
(02:02):
The thought of losing a very large part of the
Dons area that Russia currently occupies would be inconceivable, and I, Francesca,
always encourage those that say peace at all costs for
Ukraine to consider how you would feel, how would we
feel about losing the lower half of the South Island
losing Canterbury, Otago and Southland, it would be inconceivable for
(02:24):
New Zealanders.
Speaker 2 (02:25):
Kirs Starmer has asked for pressure to be put on Russia.
How does this play out? I mean, what kind of
position or Russian in Russia in here?
Speaker 3 (02:34):
Well, I've looked. I think they're in a precarious position.
In fact, the UK.
Speaker 4 (02:41):
Defense Intelligence Agency suggests that Russia is now at a
culminating point, having used some ninety five percent of its
war fighting personnel and assets, and the belief is that
by May twenty twenty five it'll be estimated that Russian
casualties will reach one million people. Can you imagine that
this is a staggering figure.
Speaker 2 (03:01):
Okay, back to the peacekeeping role. What is a peacekeeper
role going to require?
Speaker 4 (03:09):
Well, people must understand peacekeeping operations, as you know, a
very light touch compared to war fighting. The reality is
that trained soldiers wolf fighters are only those that can
conduct peacekeeping operations. And the operations of this nature are
very intensive for the contributing countries. They require significant resources,
(03:31):
training and logistical support, and specifically they require an ongoing
level of training at home that requires consistency of effort
and a very high quality of training delivery, which means
that some of our best become trainers. The re equipping
of troops is expensive and we can expect in Ukraine
(03:52):
the operational environment to be very dynamic and come with
complex mandates.
Speaker 2 (03:57):
So who's in the best position to provide this?
Speaker 4 (04:01):
Well, there needs to be a coalition lead entity from
Europe and some way. And you know, it's very interesting
post bricksit for the United Kingdom to be leading this
in such a way. I'm thrilled that they are. I
think they bring an awful lot to the party, experience,
knowledge and a great level head. I'm very impressed what
Kostam is doing in respect of this, you know, with
(04:24):
the conversations, ditto Machron from France and other countries.
Speaker 3 (04:29):
But it needs to be an EU lent entity in
my view.
Speaker 2 (04:33):
So what realistically can New Zealand provide in a peacekeeping capacity?
Does it come down to, as you mentioned, they're the training, Well.
Speaker 4 (04:40):
It comes down to training, It comes down to assets
and material and it comes down to rotation of you know,
of the entities that go in And I don't know
what's being discussed, but we are talking about a twelve
hundred kilometer zero line, so a front line that would
need to be in some way police operating in a
(05:01):
very harsh and dangerous environment amongst cities, towns and villages
that are mostly destroyed in the areas that I'm thinking
of right now. And you know, it comes with the
inherent risk of Russia breaching various agreements who could be
made around peace accords, and they've got a huge history
(05:22):
of doing exactly that.
Speaker 2 (05:23):
So just falling on from what you said there, you know,
it is important to keep in mind what is awaiting
any deployment. And you'll be well across this from your work,
what kind of environment are they going to be arriving
to and working in.
Speaker 4 (05:36):
Well, the environment is I mean, it's climatically very harsh.
It's either very whole or miserably cold. So that's the
first thing. So I mean New Zealand is very adaptable.
We have an incredible our service men and women in
the Navy, the Army and the Air Force are some
of the best in the world. But as I said,
this is an intensive operation and it's going to need
(05:58):
multiple rotations to make a meaningful contribution.
Speaker 3 (06:01):
And you know, the.
Speaker 4 (06:02):
Question that I would ask, and it's a question that
the media should be asking the Ministry of Affair is
do we have the numbers to be able to make
a sustained effort? So we're making an impactful and meaningful
contribution to peace support operations.
Speaker 2 (06:15):
Yeah, as you say, it's going to be very intensive,
but it's also going to be a long road because
there's the peacekeeping, but then there's also the rebuilding. What's
required there? How long could that take and what's going
to be needed to get that done?
Speaker 4 (06:29):
Yeah, well, look, rebuilding something completely different again, and there's
a huge opportunity for New Zealand as a consequence of
having made a significant contribution to be a part of
rebuilding activities in the future. But that very much still
is in the future. There would need to be a
sustained and just peace for that to happen. And the
rebuilding is we're talking trillions and trillions of dollars to
(06:49):
rebuild the parts of the dom Bass that we operate in,
and we are obviously behind the Ukrainians and the humanitarian
work that we do, but you know, the reports of
mass destruction in and around the dom Bass of the
Russian occupied area, I think a very and so rebuilding
would be a phenomenal global task that would need massive
(07:11):
cooperation in the future, but that is separate to peace
support operations.
Speaker 2 (07:15):
Yeah, look ten be the work you and your charity
Key we Care have done over the last two and
a bit years in this humanitarian role. How important is
that for what comes next for any peacekeeping work in rebuild.
Speaker 4 (07:27):
Well, we've always said that it would be great to
be able to conduct the operations that we do in
terms of humanitarian work without being fired out, without having
the risk that that comes with it under the this
in the current environment, So if there was a cease fire,
we'd be able to do a lot more, a lot quicker.
And there is as part of peace support operations, there
(07:50):
is the winning of hearts and minds, and that that's
an absolute fact. Whether it came down to countries, you know,
permitting their soldiers in situe to carry humanitarian aid remains
to be seen and everybody would have a different view
on that. But if New Zealand was open to those discussions,
it would make a material difference to the effort that
ki we Care and others could make in terms of
(08:12):
delivering both medical aid and humanitarian aid forward.
Speaker 2 (08:16):
And you kind of touched on it. They're the importance
of the relationships that are built in order to get
things done. That's important, isn't it.
Speaker 4 (08:24):
It's critical, absolutely critical, And why there would be as
there would always be the case with a significant language barrier,
there would be Ukrainian liaison offices appointed to various units
and sub units, whatever that strength is, whatever that composition is.
Speaker 3 (08:39):
But at the end of the.
Speaker 4 (08:40):
Day, you know, New Zealanders excel at this. You know,
we have a long history of very successful winning of
hearts and minds and some very hostile environments, and I
would see that continuing in Ukraine absolutely so.
Speaker 2 (08:55):
Ten be looking at the way negotiations and talks are going,
how confident are you that we could see a ceasefire soon?
Speaker 3 (09:03):
I'm not confident at all.
Speaker 4 (09:04):
You know, again I repeat that Russia has breached cease
fire agreements and they've made it.
Speaker 3 (09:11):
They've delivered now.
Speaker 4 (09:12):
A set of terms that are really impossible for Ukraine
or Europe to agree to. And it's very important to
remember that Ukraine is the only dam between Russia and
certainly Eastern Europe and quite possibly Western Europe holding back
imperialistic expansionist aspirations by Pertin and so you know, to
(09:33):
have a set of terms laid down around oh, you know,
not training during this period of time, no arms coming
into Ukraine to augment them, while everybody knows that Russia
will be doing exactly that, they will be recomposing themselves
to step off again in the future.
Speaker 2 (09:49):
Tm B Pal, thank you so much for your time
this morning. Really appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (09:54):
For more from the Sunday session with Francesca Rudkin, listen
live to News Talks the B from nine am Sunday,
or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.
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