This week on The Sunday Panel, NZ Herald senior writer Simon Wilson and journalist and editor Jo McCarroll joined in on a discussion about the following issues of the day - and more!
Should Kiwis have more say over the state of the health system? Can health ever become bi-partisan? Do we believe it is a matter of doing things differently with the money we have, rather than continually expecting more money to be the answer?
Hundreds of thousands of people from all over the world came together to pay tribute to the Pope - but the amount of people taking selfies raised a few eyebrows. Does this cross the line?
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:06):
You're listening to the Sunday Session podcast with Francesca Rudgin
from News Talks EDB.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
Joining me on the panel. I have got a journalist
and editor Joe mccarell. Good morning, Joe, Good morning, Pajeska
and new Zellen Herald senior writer Simon Wilson, Good morning, Simon.
Speaker 3 (00:23):
Hi there, Francesca, Hi Joe.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
Good to have you both with me. Are talking about
the HIKOI four House. Should ordinary kiwis have more of
a say in our health system? And those who also
work in the health system? Do you think that they
will be listened to? Simon?
Speaker 3 (00:42):
Well, I really like this cause and I like the
idea that behind it, People's inquiry into the state of
the public health system. Glenn Colhoun is one of the initiatives.
Is argued that the health service is too important to
be left in the care of politicians. And you know,
I think a lot of politicians might breathe a sigh
(01:03):
of relief at that idea and think, gosh, it is
nothing but for us, we don't know how to fix it.
Maybe there is another way if we take it away
from the political sphere. They may not be quite so
happy with Calhoun's observation that politicians have been one of
the main causes of the breakdown. But you know, I
would have thought pretty much everybody in this country understands
(01:24):
that we have a broken system. It is really important
that we do a lot more to fix it. We
bring in a whole lot of fresh ideas, and if
we can take it away from the ridiculous political arguments
and fine ways in which the medical clinicians, medical professionals,
and patients and the public more directly involved in establishing
(01:47):
priorities and work systems, it's hard to see a downside
given how badly the current setup has failed.
Speaker 2 (01:56):
Joe, do you think the health can ever become by partisan.
Speaker 4 (02:00):
I think it absolutely should, and I don't see why
it couldn't. I mean, it is bug partisan. It's something
that affixs Everny Zelander. I think you know, as I
completely agree with you, Simon, we all want to see
a functioning health system. I absolutely support the idea we
should be listening to people who work in the health system,
because what we've got now is this. You know, every
(02:20):
election term, the next government comes in and they say
the others did it all wrong, and so much time
and energy and hot air is wasted on politicizing it,
whereas what we should be doing is looking at the
best practice overseas seeing what we can do here. I mean,
the challenge is the money, you know, I mean, so
(02:41):
much of it does boil down to the fact that
I mean they talk about the health system being you know, indeficit,
and it's not. It's underfunded, but I mean that money
is coming from a smaller pool of young people to
fund the health needs of a sort of cashed up
pool of old people. And that seems a really, really
difficult and nuanced challenge.
Speaker 3 (03:03):
Yeah. I also think one of the problems we have
is that I know I'm guilty of this when I
write about the health system, that it's easy to use
the shorthand hospitals to mean the health system. But public health,
primary health care, the care that's given in the community, doctors, nurses,
public health services in other ways are really critical to
(03:24):
the whole system, and they are underfunded. And if they
were better, better organized, better funded, and better supported, there
would be less pressure in the hospitals. And you know,
so there's money well spent there that we tend not
to spend because it's preventive rather than you know, it's
the fence at the top rather than the ambulance of
(03:46):
the bottom. The money tends to go to the ambulance.
Speaker 2 (03:49):
It's interesting. I mean, I tend to listen to the
frontliners and people who work, you know, spend their days
working in this environment when you know, to get a
real feel for it, Simon. But you get a bit
of a You can get mixed messages. Some tell you
that it has been neglected and definitely more money. Needs
is about the money and you need to invest more money.
Other people will tell you no, not necessarily. We just
need to do things differently. It's hard to sometimes know
(04:11):
where land and it's probably different for different areas of our.
Speaker 3 (04:15):
Health system and going to guess that it's a bit
of both as well. Yeah, yeah, it's interesting. You know
that This Hikoi is a van painted up by Nigel Brown,
the artist. They'll be in Auckland tomorrow in the Domain
from twelve to two and then after that at the
menu Mariah and they are hoping to meet with members
of the public and talk who will they hope will
(04:37):
talk to them about their stories and the health system.
They want to get a kind of public record going,
so people want to talk to them. That's how they
can do.
Speaker 2 (04:45):
And look, I think Joe that that is going to
resonate because people just want to be listening to this
would be heard.
Speaker 4 (04:53):
People want to be heard, and people have real first
hand experience of the health system that from their own experience,
from the experience of a member of their family, and
so that experience is absolutely it should be part of
what is being listen to here, because yeah, I listened
to the front Line's listen to real people's experience, and
I mean, you know, it's the money. I agree with you, Franchisca,
(05:16):
It's not everything, but it is part of it. You know,
we're going to have to be realistic that first, first
world healthcare does cost.
Speaker 2 (05:26):
Overnight, we saw some beautiful photos and moving images coming
out of Rome, of course, for the for Pope Francis's
funeral mass. Interestingly, though, this week the Vatican had to
sort of say to people, could you please stop taking
selfies with the late Pope And the fact that we've
even had to ask this Simon kind of took me
(05:47):
a little bit by surprise. I would have thought everybody
would have known that it would be kind of sort
of a slightly disrespectful thing to do as you walk
in silence, you know through Saint Peter's viewing the Pope
that you would sort of jump out of line, step up,
take yourselfie of yourself? Or am I just am I
just old fashioned?
Speaker 3 (06:08):
It's very hard to know if there are any limits
to when you're allowed to take a photo these days,
isn't it? You know, everybody wants to establish I was here,
and I guess that's this is just an example of it.
It feels it feels as if it's in poor taste
to me as well. And I'm absolutely with the Vatican.
(06:33):
You what, you would want to stop everybody doing it,
and therefore you've got to stop all the individuals doing it.
You can't have said a few do it. But it's
part of a culture of you know, establishing yourself in
history in that way. And I'm not sure taking photos
(06:54):
is the worst thing about phones.
Speaker 2 (06:55):
Actually, but just being but just yeah, but just being there?
Isn't that enough to establish yourself? And do you need
a record? Do you need to have that actual record
of you? Couldn't you have just taken one outside of
the Basilica with hundreds of thousands of people surrounding the assignment.
Speaker 1 (07:09):
I don't know. I don't know.
Speaker 2 (07:11):
I just think that there was ever a time to
practice mindfulness and just be there in the moment and
take in your surroundings. I would have thought that, you know,
this was it. I don't know whether I would have
stood there, Joe for hours and hours and hours on
end to get in there and spend more of my
time taking a photo than actually kind of look.
Speaker 4 (07:32):
I have always always hated and been very uncomfortable with
selfies and pictures went with things like, you know, the
skulls and the catacombs and the killing fields of Cambodia
where there are the piles of bones. I mean, you know,
these are not props, these are actual people. I think
it is ghoulish. I think it is disrespectful. I think
it is dehumanizing. The only reason I can see people
doing it is just chasing likes online. But I would
(07:54):
sort of say, there is quite a tradition in Catholicism,
and actually across lots of different faiths and cultures of
you know, gilded skulls and mummified body parts being on display.
So I guess maybe this is just how people are.
Speaker 2 (08:10):
Well, Simon, can you Oh, we seem to have lost Simon.
We seem to have lost Simon. But Joe, can you
remember a particular time when maybe you sort of taking
a photo of something and you went, maybe this isn't appropriate,
or you did it very quickly.
Speaker 4 (08:26):
Well, actually, I genuinely take very few photos because I
find that so takes you out of the moment that
you're trying to capture, and I'd really rather be in
that moment. It sounds a bit smug and annoying, and
sometimes I'm sorry I don't take more photos. But I
find that thing where people are taking photos everywhere, especially selfies,
to position themselves in the story. It's just a weird saltzism.
(08:48):
That's a factor of modern life.
Speaker 2 (08:50):
Simon, can you recall any time that you've sort of
taken a photo and then thought to yourself, gosh, hang
on a minute, I'm not really sure I to be
doing this. This isn't hugely appropriate.
Speaker 3 (08:59):
Yeah. I don't tend to get my camera out in
that way. I mean my phone, you know. Yeah, so yeah,
I suppose I'm old fashioned enough to Yeah. I like
to think I'm looking at this now and I don't
want to put anything between me and it. Yeah, but
I actually think that's that's not a great thing really.
(09:19):
I mean, there's nothing absolutely nothing wrong with recording an experience.
You know, you don't remember them all and having the
record is a good idea. But you're but you're quite
right there. You've got to have some sense of personal limits.
Speaker 2 (09:34):
I think if the Vatican should have made it clear
very early on if they didn't want people doing that,
they should have absolutely been aware of the fact that
a whole lot of people were going to I did
a bit of a I did a bit of a
mausoleum tour one stage in my life, and I was
removed from Lenin's mausoleum and Red Square. We weren't out.
(09:54):
We're only allowed. Only a few of you were allowed
and at a time, and it was guarded by you know,
there were armed guards and things in there, and you know,
you didn't bring out you can't in those days. I
didn't have the phones, but you did not bring out
your camera. I was removed because at the time there
was an awful lot of sort of rumors about you know,
embalment and things like that, and that he was that
(10:16):
that had to sort of remodel parts of his face,
his nose and his ear and various other things. We'd
heard all these rumors. We got in there and I
got a little close to the glass because I was
trying to esertaine whether the air had fallen awful not,
And that was deemed highly inappropriate, and I'd like to
apologize for that behavior, which was a good thirty years ago,
(10:36):
and I was promptly removed from the mausoleum. So really
I can't talk. We've all know, we all do things
inappropriate at times.
Speaker 3 (10:43):
There is a new context now. I think that because
of phones, so many of the rules have changed. It's
not so long ago you weren't allowed to take a
photo in an art gallery, and that art galleries all
over the world realized they couldn't stop that happening. So
now you're encouraged to do it. They've just been you know,
(11:04):
there's a new reality now people do take photo and
you've got to assume funerals and bodies at the far
end of what's acceptable.
Speaker 2 (11:19):
Yeah, although accept the minor Lisa, but that's only because
it causes it's a crowd control issue. And I think
that's the other thing told with the Vatican, though we're
probably like, we don't have time for you little stop
and take your selfie. We need to keep moving here.
So there's a practical side to it as well.
Speaker 4 (11:32):
Just keep moving people along, Just.
Speaker 2 (11:34):
Keep moving people along from that terrible Simon Wilson, Joe McCarroll,
thank you so much for joining me today on the panel.
Speaker 1 (11:42):
For more from the Sunday session with Francesca Rudken, listen
live to News Talks it'd be from nine am Sunday,
or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.
You're listening to the Sunday Session podcast with Francesca Rudgin
from News Talks EDB.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
Joining me on the panel. I have got a journalist
and editor Joe mccarell. Good morning, Joe, Good morning, Pajeska
and new Zellen Herald senior writer Simon Wilson, Good morning, Simon.
Speaker 3 (00:23):
Hi there, Francesca, Hi Joe.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
Good to have you both with me. Are talking about
the HIKOI four House. Should ordinary kiwis have more of
a say in our health system? And those who also
work in the health system? Do you think that they
will be listened to? Simon?
Speaker 3 (00:42):
Well, I really like this cause and I like the
idea that behind it, People's inquiry into the state of
the public health system. Glenn Colhoun is one of the initiatives.
Is argued that the health service is too important to
be left in the care of politicians. And you know,
I think a lot of politicians might breathe a sigh
(01:03):
of relief at that idea and think, gosh, it is
nothing but for us, we don't know how to fix it.
Maybe there is another way if we take it away
from the political sphere. They may not be quite so
happy with Calhoun's observation that politicians have been one of
the main causes of the breakdown. But you know, I
would have thought pretty much everybody in this country understands
(01:24):
that we have a broken system. It is really important
that we do a lot more to fix it. We
bring in a whole lot of fresh ideas, and if
we can take it away from the ridiculous political arguments
and fine ways in which the medical clinicians, medical professionals,
and patients and the public more directly involved in establishing
(01:47):
priorities and work systems, it's hard to see a downside
given how badly the current setup has failed.
Speaker 2 (01:56):
Joe, do you think the health can ever become by partisan.
Speaker 4 (02:00):
I think it absolutely should, and I don't see why
it couldn't. I mean, it is bug partisan. It's something
that affixs Everny Zelander. I think you know, as I
completely agree with you, Simon, we all want to see
a functioning health system. I absolutely support the idea we
should be listening to people who work in the health system,
because what we've got now is this. You know, every
(02:20):
election term, the next government comes in and they say
the others did it all wrong, and so much time
and energy and hot air is wasted on politicizing it,
whereas what we should be doing is looking at the
best practice overseas seeing what we can do here. I mean,
the challenge is the money, you know, I mean, so
(02:41):
much of it does boil down to the fact that
I mean they talk about the health system being you know, indeficit,
and it's not. It's underfunded, but I mean that money
is coming from a smaller pool of young people to
fund the health needs of a sort of cashed up
pool of old people. And that seems a really, really
difficult and nuanced challenge.
Speaker 3 (03:03):
Yeah. I also think one of the problems we have
is that I know I'm guilty of this when I
write about the health system, that it's easy to use
the shorthand hospitals to mean the health system. But public health,
primary health care, the care that's given in the community, doctors, nurses,
public health services in other ways are really critical to
(03:24):
the whole system, and they are underfunded. And if they
were better, better organized, better funded, and better supported, there
would be less pressure in the hospitals. And you know,
so there's money well spent there that we tend not
to spend because it's preventive rather than you know, it's
the fence at the top rather than the ambulance of
(03:46):
the bottom. The money tends to go to the ambulance.
Speaker 2 (03:49):
It's interesting. I mean, I tend to listen to the
frontliners and people who work, you know, spend their days
working in this environment when you know, to get a
real feel for it, Simon. But you get a bit
of a You can get mixed messages. Some tell you
that it has been neglected and definitely more money. Needs
is about the money and you need to invest more money.
Other people will tell you no, not necessarily. We just
need to do things differently. It's hard to sometimes know
(04:11):
where land and it's probably different for different areas of our.
Speaker 3 (04:15):
Health system and going to guess that it's a bit
of both as well. Yeah, yeah, it's interesting. You know
that This Hikoi is a van painted up by Nigel Brown,
the artist. They'll be in Auckland tomorrow in the Domain
from twelve to two and then after that at the
menu Mariah and they are hoping to meet with members
of the public and talk who will they hope will
(04:37):
talk to them about their stories and the health system.
They want to get a kind of public record going,
so people want to talk to them. That's how they
can do.
Speaker 2 (04:45):
And look, I think Joe that that is going to
resonate because people just want to be listening to this
would be heard.
Speaker 4 (04:53):
People want to be heard, and people have real first
hand experience of the health system that from their own experience,
from the experience of a member of their family, and
so that experience is absolutely it should be part of
what is being listen to here, because yeah, I listened
to the front Line's listen to real people's experience, and
I mean, you know, it's the money. I agree with you, Franchisca,
(05:16):
It's not everything, but it is part of it. You know,
we're going to have to be realistic that first, first
world healthcare does cost.
Speaker 2 (05:26):
Overnight, we saw some beautiful photos and moving images coming
out of Rome, of course, for the for Pope Francis's
funeral mass. Interestingly, though, this week the Vatican had to
sort of say to people, could you please stop taking
selfies with the late Pope And the fact that we've
even had to ask this Simon kind of took me
(05:47):
a little bit by surprise. I would have thought everybody
would have known that it would be kind of sort
of a slightly disrespectful thing to do as you walk
in silence, you know through Saint Peter's viewing the Pope
that you would sort of jump out of line, step up,
take yourselfie of yourself? Or am I just am I
just old fashioned?
Speaker 3 (06:08):
It's very hard to know if there are any limits
to when you're allowed to take a photo these days,
isn't it? You know, everybody wants to establish I was here,
and I guess that's this is just an example of it.
It feels it feels as if it's in poor taste
to me as well. And I'm absolutely with the Vatican.
(06:33):
You what, you would want to stop everybody doing it,
and therefore you've got to stop all the individuals doing it.
You can't have said a few do it. But it's
part of a culture of you know, establishing yourself in
history in that way. And I'm not sure taking photos
(06:54):
is the worst thing about phones.
Speaker 2 (06:55):
Actually, but just being but just yeah, but just being there?
Isn't that enough to establish yourself? And do you need
a record? Do you need to have that actual record
of you? Couldn't you have just taken one outside of
the Basilica with hundreds of thousands of people surrounding the assignment.
Speaker 1 (07:09):
I don't know. I don't know.
Speaker 2 (07:11):
I just think that there was ever a time to
practice mindfulness and just be there in the moment and
take in your surroundings. I would have thought that, you know,
this was it. I don't know whether I would have
stood there, Joe for hours and hours and hours on
end to get in there and spend more of my
time taking a photo than actually kind of look.
Speaker 4 (07:32):
I have always always hated and been very uncomfortable with
selfies and pictures went with things like, you know, the
skulls and the catacombs and the killing fields of Cambodia
where there are the piles of bones. I mean, you know,
these are not props, these are actual people. I think
it is ghoulish. I think it is disrespectful. I think
it is dehumanizing. The only reason I can see people
doing it is just chasing likes online. But I would
(07:54):
sort of say, there is quite a tradition in Catholicism,
and actually across lots of different faiths and cultures of
you know, gilded skulls and mummified body parts being on display.
So I guess maybe this is just how people are.
Speaker 2 (08:10):
Well, Simon, can you Oh, we seem to have lost Simon.
We seem to have lost Simon. But Joe, can you
remember a particular time when maybe you sort of taking
a photo of something and you went, maybe this isn't appropriate,
or you did it very quickly.
Speaker 4 (08:26):
Well, actually, I genuinely take very few photos because I
find that so takes you out of the moment that
you're trying to capture, and I'd really rather be in
that moment. It sounds a bit smug and annoying, and
sometimes I'm sorry I don't take more photos. But I
find that thing where people are taking photos everywhere, especially selfies,
to position themselves in the story. It's just a weird saltzism.
(08:48):
That's a factor of modern life.
Speaker 2 (08:50):
Simon, can you recall any time that you've sort of
taken a photo and then thought to yourself, gosh, hang
on a minute, I'm not really sure I to be
doing this. This isn't hugely appropriate.
Speaker 3 (08:59):
Yeah. I don't tend to get my camera out in
that way. I mean my phone, you know. Yeah, so yeah,
I suppose I'm old fashioned enough to Yeah. I like
to think I'm looking at this now and I don't
want to put anything between me and it. Yeah, but
I actually think that's that's not a great thing really.
(09:19):
I mean, there's nothing absolutely nothing wrong with recording an experience.
You know, you don't remember them all and having the
record is a good idea. But you're but you're quite
right there. You've got to have some sense of personal limits.
Speaker 2 (09:34):
I think if the Vatican should have made it clear
very early on if they didn't want people doing that,
they should have absolutely been aware of the fact that
a whole lot of people were going to I did
a bit of a I did a bit of a
mausoleum tour one stage in my life, and I was
removed from Lenin's mausoleum and Red Square. We weren't out.
(09:54):
We're only allowed. Only a few of you were allowed
and at a time, and it was guarded by you know,
there were armed guards and things in there, and you know,
you didn't bring out you can't in those days. I
didn't have the phones, but you did not bring out
your camera. I was removed because at the time there
was an awful lot of sort of rumors about you know,
embalment and things like that, and that he was that
(10:16):
that had to sort of remodel parts of his face,
his nose and his ear and various other things. We'd
heard all these rumors. We got in there and I
got a little close to the glass because I was
trying to esertaine whether the air had fallen awful not,
And that was deemed highly inappropriate, and I'd like to
apologize for that behavior, which was a good thirty years ago,
(10:36):
and I was promptly removed from the mausoleum. So really
I can't talk. We've all know, we all do things
inappropriate at times.
Speaker 3 (10:43):
There is a new context now. I think that because
of phones, so many of the rules have changed. It's
not so long ago you weren't allowed to take a
photo in an art gallery, and that art galleries all
over the world realized they couldn't stop that happening. So
now you're encouraged to do it. They've just been you know,
(11:04):
there's a new reality now people do take photo and
you've got to assume funerals and bodies at the far
end of what's acceptable.
Speaker 2 (11:19):
Yeah, although accept the minor Lisa, but that's only because
it causes it's a crowd control issue. And I think
that's the other thing told with the Vatican, though we're
probably like, we don't have time for you little stop
and take your selfie. We need to keep moving here.
So there's a practical side to it as well.
Speaker 4 (11:32):
Just keep moving people along, Just.
Speaker 2 (11:34):
Keep moving people along from that terrible Simon Wilson, Joe McCarroll,
thank you so much for joining me today on the panel.
Speaker 1 (11:42):
For more from the Sunday session with Francesca Rudken, listen
live to News Talks it'd be from nine am Sunday,
or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.
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