May 18, 2018 • 57 mins
Live from the TuneIn stage at SXSW, the team gives a behind-the-scenes look at the creation of Atlanta Monster. Moderated by Tracy Kaplan.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:08):
And Atlanta. Another body was this covering today at Police
Task Force headquarters. There are twenty seven faces on the wall, murdered,
one missing. We do not know the person or persons
whatever responsible. Therefore, we do not have the moody from
Tenderfoot TV and how stiff works in Atlanta. Like eleven
other recent victims in Atlanta, Rogers apparently was a fixynor.
(00:28):
Atlanta was unlikely to catch the killer unless he keeps
on killing. This is Atlanta monster. That's a great crowd.
They're ready. Uh it's ten pm. Do you know where
(00:51):
your children are? We have kind of a young audience here.
How many of you remember hearing that as a kid
growing up? And did you know the story behind it?
I know, I for one, kind of felt like it
was strange and I didn't really understand, but I knew
it was bad, but I didn't know what the true
story was behind it. And as we get in today,
I'd love to hear kind of how you came together, um,
(01:13):
from your two sides of how stuff works and Tenderfoot
TV to bring the story to life. Well, it actually
starts with you, guys, because was it email me first?
Or how that work? It was it was really weird. Um,
believe it or not, We're in the same building in
Atlanta and we didn't know it. Um, And through some
circumstances I found out and I said, hey, I reached
(01:38):
out to Paint and said, let's come on down and
have coffee and some So Painton and Donald came down,
and uh, we just started talking and I said, you know,
up and vanishes really great, and I think the next
project that we should do together is on this Atlanta
child murders case that I was nine ten years old
at the time. Really fascinating, even though I didn't live
(01:59):
anywhere near Atlanta. And they looked at me like, yeah,
we talked about that two weeks ago, and uh, and
we kind of looked at each other and said, well,
then we have to do it. Yeah. I mean he
did to take it one step, you know, back, one
step further. The reason we were even in the same
building is because we're looking for office space. And then
pain was like, I think how stuff works is in
the same buildings. Were like, okay, well that's he was
(02:20):
the deal. Listen the real podcast. Yeah, yeah, the truth
comes out on the tune in stage. So basically, you
were hunting down down right. So but um, yeah, So
you know when we sat down with Jason and he
presented the idea of a lot of child murders to us,
you know, we had literally just talked about it weeks ago,
and it was something that Paine hadn't heard about before. Um,
(02:43):
he wasn't even born when it was happening, when the
when the merger were taking place. Um, I was about
four years old, all the way in California, that's two
thousand miles away from where those tragedies were. You know,
we're happening. But I still remember hearing about it, and
UM remember those commercials, not not really understanding what's back
of those commercials were about, but just growing up being
(03:03):
black and um, just having this effect the black community
with the black black victims. Um. And and eventually they
you know, caught a black serial killer. Um. It was
something that we just I just heard about all the time.
So we're looking for something to do a new podcast
before the seconds even up Advantaged and I said, you know, Paint,
(03:23):
have you heard this before? And I sent him and
send it to him and he was intrigued, and you know,
just went from there and Jason, what was it about?
Working with Payne and Donald that you an aside from
them stalking outside your building. Yeah, I didn't have a
choice at that point, you know. I think, Um, you know,
House Works has been doing podcasts for about ten years,
(03:44):
you know, and UM, what I appreciate about podcasts, um,
and I hope this stay is true, is that there's
not kind of a cookie cut cutter template to how
things should be done. And what I really really appreciated
about Up and Advantaged is it was there was kind
of no rules and so so pain you know, came
from filmmaking. Um, he had definite ideas around kind of
(04:08):
what it meant to tell his story. And I loved,
you know, the layered approach to things, using sound, using
music for emotion, um, you know, frankly, kind of being
fearless about it. Where, UM, I feel like we don't
do that enough in the industry, where let's let's tell
a big story, let's talk to everyone that we can
and see where it goes, and you might be surprised
(04:30):
where that story might end up. And I think Up
and Vantage is a perfect example of if you're persistent
and you embed yourself in the community and you talk
to people and they just know that you're someone they
can talk to. Things can happen. And I think, um,
that was just really interesting to me and um and
and it just speaks to telling big stories. And I
(04:52):
think that this industry is just right for you know,
early on it was serial it was s town, etcetera, etcetera.
Think there should be twenty or thirty or forty of
these each year where these kind of monumental layered stories
with you know, kind of so many twists and turns,
but also just the layers of that story are just
super interesting to me. And so I really admired all
(05:16):
those qualities. And I've kind of felt like the combination
of our efforts would um would kind of be a
power house story if we really put our heads together.
And I think I think we've done that now. This
story in particular, no one was telling. There haven't been movies,
there haven't been kind of the same the There's been
some books in writing, but there just hasn't been the
same kind of continuous examination that there have been for
(05:40):
things like The Zodiac Killer. How did you feel about
that in terms of coming into it and the approach
that you took, but also knowing that there was so
much hesitation from other people jumping into it. It really
that was one of the main you know, motivations behind
(06:02):
us wanting to do it was that Paine never heard
of it. He grew up in Kennesaw. I was after
you know, it happened. But you know, plenty of people
didn't grow up during the era of you know, Zodiac
or you know these other serial killers that have been
you know ingrained in our mind through TV series and
books and all these different um adaptations of movies, but
(06:25):
this was something where it was kind of forgotten, and
you know, doing some digging within the podcast, it's there's
there's a reason why, um. I think initially, you know,
these were all poor black victims and just historically you're
not going to get the same attention being poor number
one and then being a minority number two. So that's
one of the reasons. But also, you know, there's a
(06:45):
lot of political stuff involved with this um with these murders,
and it was something that Atlanta wanted to forget about.
So within the investigation, you know, we um uncovered some
of that stuff and just had a better understanding ourselves
of why you know, I was hearing about it, but
we took it upon our I'll just say, look, if
you've never heard about this, it's important and you should
know about it. So we want to just tell that
(07:05):
story and read. The ultimate goal was, look if we
can bring the millennial generation who's never heard of it
and the black community who's familiar with it, but they're
not really um having maybe heard the entire story because
there's been so much rumor and um, so many conspiracy
theories throughout the years, which happens when you don't have,
you know, a platform to tell to speak truth from.
(07:26):
So I wanted to bring these two groups in the
middle somewhere to meet and just have a conversation about race,
about um, you know, the criminal justice system. And I
think that's what we've been able to do. Yeah, I
was just gonna say, Um, there was a little bit
of the perception early on was I don't know. We
we got a lot of comments from people that say, oh,
there's no way that Pain couldn't have heard of this case. No, No,
(07:50):
he's just making he's just he's making that up for
a story. And I gotta tell you, Um, the two
crowds of people that have actually given us tons of feedback,
one has been the people that were alive at the time,
and they remembered it, but they didn't really remember it
when psychics and all this crazy stuff happened. And then
literally a whole generation of people that says, wait, so
(08:12):
twenty eight African American kids were killed and I never
knew about this, And I think, you know, pain is
a lot like our audience in terms of like, how
could such a big tragedy happen? And there never kind
of be a big stage to tell this like some
of the other serial killers, um in our history of America.
And that was kind of a surprise for us. Yeah,
(08:33):
I found out pretty quickly the born eight seven there
was a lot of people like me, I just turned
thirty this year that had never heard of this at all,
and um, you know, it's such a big tragedy that
affected not only the city of Atlanta but just the
whole nation that I found it interesting that there was
others out there like myself who had never heard of it.
And that was one of the reasons that I chose
(08:53):
to to continue researching this story and to make it
into a podcast, and not only researching, by creating and
producing it up to the very last minute before published.
So how many people here are caught up? And are
you all waiting to go home tonight for the drop
of the final episode. Well, we have a surprise for
(09:15):
you because we have a preview clip of the final episode.
We do. I'm kidding, we do, we do. Pay do
you mind just setting it up for us? So this
is um Dale Russell. It's actually a preview for tonight's episode.
There's one episode next week which will be ten, which
is the finale. So it's a nice episode, episode nine.
(09:35):
It's called the Trial, and this is Dale Russell. He's
a Fox five Atlanta reporter and he's talking about during
the trial when Wayne blew up on the stand and
it kind of changed the trajectory of why or just
how he's How he was convicted in the first place
is one of the major points. So this is him
talking about it. They had a breaking They had to
(09:59):
show the jury a different sign of Wayne Williams. They
hand to let the jury see that this unassuming guy
sitting in front of them had this other sign to
his personality, and they got it. Wayne Williams was not
the mild Mannard witness we saw the last two days.
(10:19):
He was irritable, arrogant assistant d A. Jack Mallard had
him right where he wanted him. He finally broke, and
he snapped at the prosecutor. He called FBI agents goons,
didn't answer some of the prosecutor's questions and said his
own defense attorney Mary Welcome, forced him to give an
interview for money. You want the real Wayne Williams. When
(10:41):
you got him right here as an observer, he was electric. Mallard,
Mr Williams, you've been eating up all this worldwide publicity,
haven't you, Williams, No, I haven't. I'm tired of sitting here.
You're telling these folks I fit the profile, Mallard. Wasn't
these murders your center stage? Williams, you must be a
cool I distinctly remember writing down I've got it here
(11:04):
for you, looking up at somebody I don't remember who,
making eye contact and looking at the edge O. They
were like, oh my gosh, here we go, Here we go.
So I think a lot of people are wondering about
that first conversation. How can you talk to us, like
how that unfolded with Wayne? With Wayne, how you felt
(11:27):
about that? Um, it was weird to be honest, Um,
it was I think you were in the room, and
you were in the room and I was like be quiet,
like one of those things. Um, And I didn't know
what to expect. I was being introduced by Dwayne. Not
to be confused with Wayne and or me pain yes,
but um yeah, I was. I just thought it was
(11:49):
super weird. But um, he was very nice and he
was charismatic, and he was easy to I would say,
talk to you, but listen to at least. Um. It
was hard for me to kind of reel in and
it's sort of give any direction to the conversation like
I usually do in an interview or something. But UM, yeah,
I just found it very interesting. And it's really it's
been the same since then. It has not wavered at all.
(12:11):
He's He's the same the whole time, which is also
very interesting. So you've never seen that side of him,
the getting really agitated, And I haven't know, And I'm
just curious, um, in terms of you are you're actively
producing the show, as you're talking to him, as people
are reaching out to you, how do you balance that
(12:32):
kind of following where their story is going, but also
needing to lead it and push it it is UM
extremely difficult to say the least, actually believe it or not.
This is how difficult it is. On the way here,
I was listening to episode nine on my phone in
the elevator to get here, to make sure that there
was no mistakes in it. UM. And like that clip
(12:53):
you heard this morning, I made that this morning actually
in Atlanta. So like, this is not how you should
do your podcast at all. Please don't do this to yourself.
I agree with that, but if you do, call me,
I'll try to help you out. But seriously, it's UM.
It's crazy because it opens the door to so many
things because you know, a lot of the findings we
(13:14):
have and some revelations coming in episode nine and ten
have been because the podcast got so big and allowed
for us to find new things, new information, new people.
So in a lot of ways, it's very helpful. But
you still have to build a story arc and and
map it all out, and there's so many little technical
things that make a podcast good and you still have
(13:36):
to do those things and they take a lot of time.
So doing that and talking to Wayne in real time
and going here and going there, it's it's very difficult.
You have time for nothing, else. Um, and I'm sure
that's a thank you to Meredith. You're yes, and if yes,
thank you Meredith for putting up with all that. I was,
I was, how many interviews? Like I look at the
(13:58):
dropbox and I see all these interviews, all these files,
and I was I was trying to count how many
interviews with Wayne or clips? It's it's thirty forty maybe more.
What is it? I don't know. There was so many
folders in there that I just made a folder that
that's called stuff That's less important, and I started dumping
stuff in there that I was like, that's not important,
that's not because there was so many folders I couldn't
(14:18):
even find like one thing beca. It's probably as far
as Wayne goes, at least thirty plus calls in there,
and um, even some as recent as a few days ago.
So it's, uh, we're excited to kind of come to
a conclusion. I know a lot of people are during
what they're listening, They're like, what's the point, what are
you doing? Well, the first point was, you know, have
(14:39):
you heard this story before? Do you know all the
details to even care about how this could in the
first place. I think that we're there now obviously, and
so in episode nine, not to give too much away,
we kind of explore, well, why was Wayne convicted in
the first place? He was? So, what are those bad
parts of Wayne William's true or not? What convinced the
jury that he was get t And then from there
(15:01):
we kind of end up in this new place for
the first time, and we concluded an episode ten. I
want to give too much away, but that's where we are.
I think this room really wants you to give too
much away what we want? Well, what do you mean
maybe after the microphones turn off? Um? So, I think
what what is so wonderful is to see how many
(15:21):
people are listening, how many people you have now exposed
to this story. How did you think about the audience
that you were trying to reach and how did that
guide the decisions you made and either the production or
how you released it. I think the production. Um, you know,
there's there's different sides of this, you know, and such
(15:43):
a polarizing case. Everyone picks aside and they stick to it.
He's guilty of everything, or he's innocent, he did nothing wrong,
and you've got to find out how do you find
an audience within there that's willing to even hear this
story from a neutral perspective, and you know, we get
a couple of different things. I mean, I think pain
being the host as someone who didn't experience it growing
up as someone who's a different race than the killer
(16:05):
and the the convicted killer and the victims automatically opens
it up. So it's bigger than just a black story,
because I think it's important that everyone knows the story,
not just one race or another. It's it's the tragedy
that you know needs to be exposed so and itself.
How we were able to do it, I think UM
brought in a more broad audience and then even from
(16:27):
a from a marketing perspective, UM you know, we wanted
to reach people who weren't traditional podcast listeners. You know,
we did billboards in Atlanta, we did trailers, you know,
visual trailers before we ran UM TV commercials of that
trailer on TV one, just targeting a you know, forty
and up urban audience. So you know, we had to
(16:47):
identify who we wanted to listen to this and it
was you know, we kind of knew what that was,
but we knew we had to figure out how to
actually go get them. So we you know, we did
some things that most people don't do when when in
podcast promotion. So I think I think it worked and
I think it left an impression in Atlanta. We knew
that the people in Atlanta have heard this story, but they,
you know, were intrigued in too interested in it. So
(17:07):
the billboard just had the mug shot that if you
were around, you remembered that mug shot, and that's what
the cover is. So when when that was upon billboards,
so many people have come to me and said, oh, yeah,
I saw this on Spring Street or on Ponce and
it intrigued them to usually hadn't listened, it was on
their mind to go and listen. And those and those
billboards were right in the same parts where actually a
(17:30):
lot of these kids were found. Um where we're in
in the Atlanta where in midtown Atlanta, um and kind
of in a what two to five mile radius is
where most of those kids first started disappearing. And it's
it's very humbling when you hear a clip about someone
who called into a pastor. I think it was episode
or episode episode two or three, and I'm talking about
(17:51):
Ponce daileone Avenue We're like, that's our address. The guy
was down the street at a bar when he called,
and it's just it really brings it home. UM. I
love what Donald said about bringing in new listeners. Um.
Every part of what we did we wanted to kind
of do something big and different. So it wasn't just
the story. It was we actually hired an actor and
(18:13):
shot some scenes. We did, uh throwing a um what's
his name? What was the name of the body, rescue Randy,
rescue Randy over the bridge, and just trying to kind of, um,
just do things differently. We dropped four audio trailers or
teasers before to build up interest, so kind of UM,
build that buzz, and I think it actually drove people
(18:34):
nuts because they couldn't stand it anymore. And then UM
and four video video trailers that would play out in
different mediums and kind of educate people. And if they
saw it, they would say, wait, what what was that?
Like There's shots of UM pulling kids out of a
river and a little boy that's scared of going outside
at night, and it just it instantly makes you think,
(18:56):
I don't know what this is, but I have to
listen to this right now. And so UM that was
a combination of having audio teams, video teams, archives, the
whole thing to tell a big story. And and that's
just going big. Yeah. A lot of people thought it
was a you know, television series or something because it
was high quality of visuals and re enactments that we use.
And when you see it on TV or you see
(19:16):
it on the internet and it looks like it looks good,
we don't want them to think of it as a podcast.
So I don't know what that is or you know,
I don't listen to podcasts. We want to be good
enough to where you'll go anywhere to find it. And
I think, you know, um, I think we did. We
did that, and I think it's still growing and kind
of we want to just set the bar for like
how you promote important projects and podcasts. They're they're growing there.
(19:39):
You know, they're big and they should be treated as such,
you know what I mean with the marketing and you know,
just a little more innovation from the promotions and marketing side.
Now you mentioned archives. Jason and I have a shared
love of American history and primary source materials. Um, I'd
love for you to talk about how much that influenced
the story and I think a big thank you has
(20:02):
to go out to the archivists who kept all this
material for you to then dig through. It is Jason's
expertise here, it's it's it's interesting backstory. So, um, the
University of Georgia has been holding onto ws TVs video archives.
It's down in a vault in a basement in University
of Georgia, which is what about an hour or so
(20:23):
outside of Atlanta and Athens, Georgia. And uh, they've just
had all these original they were video clips and they
have a series of researchers and archivists that we're waiting
one day for someone to show up and want to
tap into this and it was us, And um, I
just I think it adds again that layer to the
(20:44):
story that is interesting. It also it's jarring when you
hear um people talking about so and so identified themselves
as a homosexual and and it's just not the way
we talk anymore. And this was this wasn't kind of
you know, Joe, average person on the street. This is
actually the news media reporting on these things. And it's
(21:06):
just I think hearing stories told differently, um using that
that archive material, but also to kind of move the
story forward in an emotional way. I think it's really interesting,
but pain can speak to this. We didn't just want
this to be a history lesson or a History channel
type experience. It needed to go deeper than that, and
(21:27):
so the the archive footage was always meant to help
move the story forward, but not be the story itself.
You think. One just interesting tidbit about the archives that
you guys might find interesting is that, like each clip
you hear is thirty seconds or sixty seconds of a
clip that's like an hour long, and then there's literally
(21:50):
several thousand clips. And so they went through and tagged
all the clips by name and number with time codes
and kind of described what was being talked about. But
so in between there you have all this other bizarre
stuff from the eighties and it's actually some of its hilarious,
just actually looking back and seeing just society in nineteen age. Yes, yes,
(22:11):
bizarre things from the eighties, so that now we just
have to talk about it. We weren't going to talk
about it, but now we have to talk about it.
Jason's US Weekly Magazine another obsession. I'm a history major,
so I get into this stuff. I mean, and I
talked about this on our special episode called The Vault,
which is the fact that um Wayne was just all
(22:33):
over the media and kind of attached to this, and
he did an interview with US Weekly with just kind
of this salacious um dramatic magazine. And I got obsessed
trying to find this, and so I searched the internet.
It wasn't anywhere. I found it on eBay, ordered it
and got kind of to pristine copies of the two editions,
and there was and it was kind of positioned next
(22:56):
to old cigarette ads and liquor ads and and kind
of all the stuff, and I just I still, I
look at it and I can't get my can't get
my arms around it and understand it. But it is
another crazy layer to this case, for sure. And I
borrowed it from you and you text me was like
do you still have the magazine? I was like, yeah, still, okay,
could you bring it to me when you're done. It's like, yeah, sure,
that's fine, So full disclosure. I asked Jason to bring
(23:19):
it today. I think he was afraid to have it
leave his office. It's it's probably on his desk in
a case. You brought it in your pocket so actually
what that what that brings us to is how how
are you balancing then the first person because I think
to your point, Jason, you didn't want this to feel
like a history lesson and you really went out and
(23:41):
drove around the neighborhoods where this, where this happened. How
did you balance those two of the archival and then
um first person interviews? Well, to me that the history
element of this is actually the most important part of it.
But me as a listener thinking objectively about this project,
that would be boring to me. And so I wanted
(24:03):
to bring new information and mesh the two together and
tell a different story than just me playing archive clips
for you and playing interviews of people just recounting what
happened one time. UM, I wanted to bring in new information,
explore theories, but also stay true to the archives and
(24:24):
everything else and all the racial bar bifurcations that are
just so prevalent in the story and UM, just tell
it the right way. And to me, that was sticking
true to the history of it, because the history is important,
but also bringing new information to the table. And what
did you feel like you UM wanted to tell so
(24:45):
far that you haven't been able to because you have
done some of the extra episodes where you've delved into
the side stories. Is there anyone, any story is still
nagging at you? Um, it's it's hard to say. I mean,
there's this story is so complex and there's so much
you could tell. You could make a hundred podcasts on this,
but UM, to me, the biggest thing and it's I
(25:07):
want to just tell people so badly like what I'm
thinking sometimes, but this is not really the place to
do that. Um. There's also what I sayings too, were
just listen to the end, you know, listen one through
ten and then come talk to me. And so like
week by week, I'm like, just you just don't know
what you don't know yet. So like that kind of
(25:28):
stuff is, why isn't he talking about this? Lane's got him? Yeah, exactly.
Stuff like that. We also can't really say, like from
tell people what we think or Pain can't just weighing
on an opinion because the next week he might feel differently.
And we've changed positions on this thing several times. And
we have a conversation, you know, internally with our production
(25:49):
staff with Pain, and from week to week, you know,
we we might feel feel differently. So it's important that
even for us that you know, we're waiting to the
end and we say, Okay, we've digested all this, we
know you know what was left out, we know what
we've covered in the podcast, and you know, how do
we feel about this? And but yeah, you have to
wait till the end to really form an opinion. Yeah.
(26:10):
And part of that too is, UM, I think I'm
not spoiling anything when I say, um, we you know,
pain is not saying this is how I feel and
this is how you should feel. Part of this is
all of us should be listening to this and going
through a lot of those same emotions and maybe thinking, well,
you know, um, what is my bias? And why am
(26:32):
I thinking this? Is it because I'm white? Is it
because I'm black? Is it because I grew up in Atlanta?
Is it because um I was um of of age
at the time and I remember that, or maybe I
don't know anything about it, and and I think, um,
you know, one of the things that we want to
leave with um anyone that's listened is how do I
make up my own mind? But why am I making
(26:54):
my mind up in a certain way? What is my bias.
What have I collected here? And you may not have
a clear answer, And and that's okay too. Yeah, I
think that's great as a as a listener, it's it's
almost a relief to hear you say this, because I
certainly from week over a week would feel one way
and then listen to the next episode and feel the
(27:15):
other way. And sometimes would hear Wayne and as he's
going down kind of his pathways, of the conversations you're
having with him, just even in that moment listening to
him would change my my perception of him. But you
can't forget either. I can't tell you how to feel
about something. And a lot of the way I presented
this was you tell me what you think about Episode five,
(27:38):
Wayne's World. Wayne talking to me. I'm not gonna tell
what I think. You tell me what you think. You know,
I'm gonna put it out there. I'm not gonna influence
you at all. I'm gonna make sure it's all there
and the important parts are highlighted. But that's kind of
what this is in a lot of ways, is what
did you get from this? And you'll see very quickly
(27:58):
this is why it's so complicated, so why people still
talk about this. I definitely think that's why it's so
compelling as a listen because you you do have to
think through that, and you're pushing us as listeners to
get to that point. Um. I know that you've got
in some some heat for saying you're not a podcaster, um,
but I'd love to hear you kind of talk about
(28:18):
that and how that impacts your storytelling. What does that
mean to you? And is it this being able to
say I'm just gonna put something out there and let
the audience react as they see fit. Yeah, I said
I'm not a podcaster one time, and people got mad
about that. But what I actually meant, if you heard, um,
was it podcast movement? The little thing I said, basically
(28:40):
it was, is that I was scared to make podcasts
before I made a podcast because I didn't think that
I fit in and I still don't fit in that well.
But it turns out that doesn't matter, actually, And that
was the whole point. It's not that I don't like podcasters.
If I didn't like podcasters and me and Jason went
me friends, but like, seriously, it's to me, it's just
(29:03):
the whole labeling of things people you know have a
problem with like when you're doing a podcast, well, what
are you? You filmmaker? You have made a film. It's like,
why do I have to be labeled something? And I
kind of just like tell stories and do stuff in
two years if I'm doing something wildly different, am I
still what I am today? Or am I just the
same person? I'm just growing. So I just don't like
(29:24):
the label thing very much. And the podcast label really,
in all, honestly almost deterred me from making a podcast.
I did not think that I I fit in. I
just that was not my thing. So why would I
be good at that? Why would people listen to that?
And really, like, genuinely I almost didn't do it because
of just that and not look back like, wow, that
(29:45):
would have been really stupid if that's why I didn't
do it. So I just choose to tell that story
that way. So yeah, I'm still on a podcast. When
people ask and I alsot it's steams from up and
vantaged episode one where you know, we kind of just
disarmed the listener by saying, look, I'm I'm paint Lendsy.
I'm doing this podcast, but beware, I'm not a podcaster.
(30:07):
I'm not a journalist, I'm not an attorney. I'm just
really not qualified to be doing this. So, you know
what a judgment too hard And that's where you know,
that's what sparked it. So, I mean, it wasn't made
a statement. It was like to the podcast world. It
was to the five thousand listeners of Up and Vantished
Episode one, and it just became, you know, it just
(30:30):
steamrolled in this bigger thing. And to be honest, you
know when we first, you know, we we know each
other through the music industry, and um, we're both burnt
out of you know, being in the music industry and
just the monotony of you know, what we're doing, and
you know, pain and say look I want to do
something on the TV and film space. I said, look,
I'm I'm down. Let me know what I can do
to hell. So Up and Vanished The Disappearance of Terry
(30:52):
Grinstead was supposed to be a documentary, and then when
we realized that it costs too much money for us
to to do a documentary by ourselves, he decided, let's
make this a podcast and stay. So the entire idea
of us getting into a new field and doing some
storytelling was about film and TV, not about podcasting. So
I think that's another, you know, the reason why he
(31:13):
described himself that way. And I think this comes back
to Jason. You're saying just looking for the big stories
and really being able to jump into those and and
tell those and whatever medium it is. Yeah, I was
saying this yesterday on the panel, Um that it was
a part of I think I got this right. But
I think it's been forty three days since Cyrial launched.
(31:33):
You've been counting every day or I did my homework
before I came here. Um, it's on the desk with
the US week and uh, I mean total props to
that show. Um, it continues to be in the top
twenty or top thirty on Apple podcasts every single week.
And so when you look at this in a positive way,
(31:55):
you'd say, you know, while that really is the starter
kit for anyone that is new to pot cast, this
is I think everyone's gone through that right. Oh my gosh, Serriel,
you have to listen to serial now. It's Cereal and
s Town and and I think that's been great to
kind of get people in the door. But I think
we need to tell bigger stories and kind of the
idea around Atlanta Monster was how does Tenderfoot and House
(32:18):
to Works kind of come together as as uh, cool
credible storytellers with different expertises and different voices and different
disciplines and and kind of elevate um in our own way,
UM one story that might be bigger and and do
things creatively. And we're starting to see more people kind
of getting out there and and I look at the
(32:40):
industry and I want to see more, and I think
listeners do too. I think they're hungry for more, and
we need to give them more. Um. That's why everyone's
talking about Atlanta Monster. Not I'm not trying to kind
of say that we're awesome and we're promoting ourselves, but
we I think we fed them something they really wanted.
I say, you're awesome, what's up? Thank you? That's nice.
(33:02):
So I'm actually hearing um. A lot of people say
that Up and Vanished has now been their first podcast
that they hear about a podcast. And I feel like
for a lot of people, Cereal was that that starter kit.
But now I'm hearing Up and Vanished. How do you
feel about that? That's pretty cool because Cereal is why
I made a podcast, basically because I would not have
known what podcasting was if my friend didn't say, hey,
(33:25):
I ever heard of Cereal? I was like, no, what's that?
And then I started listening to Cereal. And then so
when I went to go make this uh up and
Vantaged documentary which is gonna be a TV series, at first, um,
I was like, well I really liked Cereal. Someone to
go look for other true kind podcasts to kind of
see how it was made or what was out there,
and I decided that I should make one. Don't Yeah,
(33:49):
I mean, that's the biggest compliment to me is when
someone says, look, you you brought me into this new space.
Never listened to a podcast before, because I hadn't listened
to a podcast until Up and Vantage episode one. That's
the first podcast I ever listened to. And then Pain
was like, um, probably right about right, maybe a day
before yeah, I mean probably yeah, yeah, but you know.
(34:14):
And then the first thing Pain told me was, look,
if we're gonna do this and do it right, go
you gotta go listen to Cereal. And so the second podcast,
let's do with Cereal. And then when it started to
blow up, we said, okay, look we now have a
podcast business. So then I listened to Startup, which was
a cheat sheet for how we're gonna start up our own,
you know, podcasting company. So you know, this just goes
(34:35):
to show you could have not not be a podcast listener.
I never have made a podcast before. And you know,
it's all about the storytelling and trying to tackle big
stories and and just telling them in a way that's
that's compelling to the listener. And I think you shouldn't
shy away from controversial stories, you know, stories where you
know they're gonna be polarizing to listener. You you have
to really tell the big stories and and and it
(34:58):
intreagues people and brings them in when they feel like
this is something that I can't talk to everyone about.
Guess what podcasting really is. It's you and you're earbuds.
You know, it's a private experience, and you want to
try to bring that out to the larger community, and
people obsess over they want to talk to their friends
about it. All right, you listen to up Advantage, You're
listening to a lot of monsters, So that's what we
want to hear that. You know, Hey, I never listened
(35:20):
to this, but it was so good, and I heard
about it so much that I wanted to come into
the podcast under the podcasting tent just to listen to
your podcast. So yeah, that's what I love about audio.
It's it can go from being that really personal, intimate
experience to them that very shared community. Exactly that when
you find someone else that's listening to the show that
you love, you just cannot wait to talk to them
(35:40):
about it. How do you build that connection with your audience.
It's it's hard to say exactly because I'm on the
other end of it. I don't have the same experience
as you have. Sometimes I wish I had that experience
with this show or whatever show I'm working on, because
you know, you hear it so much. It's not they're
the same anymore. All the material is just not the same.
(36:03):
Um to me, it's like who in here makes a
podcasts or wants to anyone in here trying to do that? Okay,
that's pretty good amount. When we say like good storytelling,
do you even know we're talking about? I would be like,
what are you talking about? Like you know what I mean? Um,
I think that a good podcast, at least the kind
(36:25):
that we've been making it's not just telling a good
overall story, it's the very tiny little things the matter.
It's like, for example, I'm taking the ums out of
someone talking, just making the listening experience clean, and you
begin you begin to depend on it, and you don't
even know what those things actually are anymore. You might
(36:47):
listen to another podcast like, I don't know, I don't
like it as much, but I don't really know why.
It's those little things. So we're always focusing on those details.
We're trying to make it sound good. We're we're also
we're trying tell a big story and to tell it right,
but we're also focusing just as much on making something
sound good. So like, if you want to make your
own podcast, you know, that's really what you should focus on.
(37:10):
To be honest. If you have good content and you're
trying your hardest and it sounds good, then it's gonna
be good. People are gonna like it. Yeah, And I think, um,
I love um the kind of backstory on the use
of music in the in the podcast to um and
that's highly underrated as a as a mechanism for for
driving emotion and podcasts. And uh, I mean I love
(37:34):
how this kind of got cranking. I got got cranking
as we as we. I want this eighties music throughout
the whole thing. And I found this guy on Spotify.
His name is Makeup and Vandy Set. It's just one guy.
I thought it was this big group of people who
know its just a guy in his laptop. He's awesome. Um.
But I called him up also, like, hey, would you
be interested in basically scoring this podcast? And he had
(37:58):
never listened to a podcast either. Then he listened to
Up and Up and Vanished and was like, I totally
get it now, and he just progressed as every episode
has gone by making amazing music. To me, I like that.
I like being submerged in a sequence and just sort
of being there in the moment. Some people don't like
the music. I kind of like it, so that's why
you always hear it that way. But you know, make
(38:19):
what you like and just making your best that's pretty
much it. How much of that is an influence from
your music background, I don't know. I think it's just
kind of to me. I always sort of thought podcasts
were kind of boring. Um. I didn't really listen to
talk radio that much, so I didn't really kind of
get into that. So when I first made up and vanished,
(38:41):
I was trying to make something that I thought was compelling,
what would suck me in, And so I had this
sort of these music beds in the background and just
sort of setting the scene and making this tone that
really grabs you. So it comes from that really, to
be honest, yeah, I'd agree. I mean, paintings, music, background
goes it goes back a long way. So he understands,
(39:02):
you know, production, He understands the timing, even when it
comes to how interviews are edited, and you know how
that one second pause or you know, those things make
a big difference. Things are huge. Yeah, So if you
don't know why you like one one podcast more than
another has a lot to do with the editing, the production.
I think also, you know, the music, like we talked about,
but I think the relatability of the host plays a
(39:26):
huge part in it, because you could listen to a
really great story or you know, interesting story, but the
person who's delivering that story is just the language they speak,
isn't the language that you're understanding how they phrase things.
I feel like when I started listening to podcasts and
(39:46):
I felt like, is the host just trying to show
me how smart they are by the way they're trying
to tell the story. I just want to hear a
good story. It doesn't have to be told from the
perspective or from you know you. You spent you know,
days and weeks writing this one part to see let
me let me, you know, go in the saurus and
figure out a better word to say here that makes
(40:08):
me sound even smarter. It's like, just just tell me
your story so I can relate to it. And and
those are the things that you know, you like, why
do I like this and not that one? Both could
be good stories, but how is it relating to you?
With pain, he's he's like the audience when it comes
to like, oh, I might go and knock on the
door just like that. But the journalists or the attorney
might not take that approach. They might say, oh, that's
(40:30):
that's not the way we would do it by the book.
But pain is like, Okay, let me call this guy up,
let me recordious call you know, so as things that
we would just all do as a listener if we
were hosting our own podcast. I think that's a huge
part of it. So you're saying that I should buy
a thesaurus. Basically, yeah, definitely got it. I was just
gonna say, there's there's a clip at the beginning I
(40:51):
think is it episode five, and it's a really frustrating
to three minute um interlude of all the things you
had to go through to actually connect with Wayne on
the call. And you know, some people are like, oh,
how could you do that? That is yeah, you're like, okay,
(41:12):
well it's a little long, but you're like, I knew that.
But actually, to be honest, the whole thing took about
fifteen minutes. And that was about two and a half minutes.
I kept treating a DOWNSA, this is a little too long.
About wanted you to be like, good greed, this is ridiculous.
You'll hear that confirmation number. I was like, this is
that is That's the longest number I've ever been read.
Someone has to hear this. It reminded me of the
(41:33):
old dial up days when you're waiting for the modem.
Exactly this is what you have to do. I thought
I was intriguing. I was like, this is what everyone
does when they talk to someone in ja illness is insane. Yeah,
and then I mean not to get too intellectual about it,
but um, like, wow, the prison system and everything about
this bureaucratic nightmare is broken. Um, and look what you
(41:56):
have to do to just talk to someone. And I
just just putting it out there for people who observe
and frankly get a little frustrated themselves as they listen to.
That's the whole put you there, that's the whole point.
So you did go and knock on doors and show
up at people's houses. How did you build the report
to get them to talk to you? To be honest,
(42:17):
I didn't really have one. I didn't think I did
at least I just just called people and said, hey,
you don't know me, I want to talk basically, But no,
I mean, to be honest, it's a very tragic story.
So depend on who you're talking to. You're always sensitive
to who this person is and how they're related to
this case and this story. You can't ever forget that.
(42:37):
It's the most important part of this. So if you're
always keeping that in mind, and you're trying to be
a people person and just find a way to relate
to somebody, then most of the time it works. Yeah.
I mean, don't let your own voice get in the
way of someone being able to tell you a story.
And I think especially if you if you listen to
(42:59):
episode one, I think you're barely in that episode, and
it's it's because that was intentional. Yeah, I mean, it's
it's I've seen some press on this where yes, we
talked to FBI agents and a p D officers and
television anchors, but actually just talking and of course um
you know, um families, um, of the victims and such,
(43:21):
but also just people who grow up at that time
and listening to those people. I think it's just super important,
and it's just you know, hey, I grew up in
this neighborhood and this is how I felt and then.
And they don't have to be anyone that is of
a high position in the city or or we're involved
in the case. We just want to know how you feel.
That's super important to just listen every single interview. You
(43:41):
hear every single one. Meredith and I are both there
in person for every single one of them, and I
often intentionally just remove myself from it. So this person
is telling their story, it's not my story, and I
just think it sounds better that way. It's more natural. Um,
you know, I'm not trying to be a part of
(44:02):
the conversation with them. I don't know anything about what
they're telling me. You know, I'm hearing it for the
first time, like you guys are as they're telling me.
So I'm not trying to, you know, broadcast a conversation
with somebody. I'm trying to ask the right questions so
they can kind of take the stage themselves. And then
what's your process of putting it together? Because now you
were there for it, hearing it the first time, and
(44:23):
then obviously when you're adding it, you're hearing it over
and over again. How do you not get too close
and actually kind of bring yourself back to that moment
of hearing it for the first time. Um, as you're
listening to it, as you do the interview, you kind
of go, oh, yep, that's a that's pretty important, or
that's a good part, or that's a really interesting lot
line that has to go in there. So stuff like that.
(44:44):
You kind of just trying to remember that or take notes.
But then when it comes down to the interview, you
have to kind of go back and forth. When you're
editing from going from thinking super objectively and like broad
about it and then being very hyper focused on one
little thing about the way this actually sounds, not what
the word means, but does this sound funky? Is this
(45:05):
sound okay? And then you know, does this story chronologically
makes sense? And then should I interject myself here and
give a little further explanation on that or should I
just you know, put this here so it makes sense
to come right after that? And the goal for me
is to the less narration that's needed, the better podcast
(45:25):
edit it is. If it can go five minutes without
me talking, that means that it all made enough sense
for you to sit back and hear people just talking
and you know what's going on. I think that's pretty
hard to do. So if you can do that, you're
doing a pretty good job. Yeah you're great, Yes, okay,
Donalds are great. That's good. Yeah, that's that's sauces right there,
(45:48):
and the and the edit and in not getting in
your own way. You know, the worst thing you can
do is over talk if you're interviewing someone, because they
could be about to say something great and then here
you come bumbling all over the place and interjecting what
you want them to say. Are trying to get to
the point fashion than that they you know, than the
pace that they're going to get to it eventually. At
(46:09):
so I think, yeah, just sitting back and letting people
talk and then you know, being able to pull those
little things out, that's what You'll have a questions sometimes
and I'll just sit there five seconds of like awkward
silence with somebody and I'm just like, and they're like
they always talk, so and they just start filling the
(46:29):
air with something because they feel obligated to you know
what I mean. It's like it felt weird to me
at first, just kind of just you know someone's gonna
eventually start of talking about Like it's not like a standoff.
It's more like a you know, I'm not I'll just
be waiting a little bit longer than someone else might
be waiting, and then before I'm about to talk, they
start talking. It's actually a great negotiation tactic, just so
(46:50):
you know myself, you can save that for later, because
it's not as easy as it sounds like. I do
some like pre interviews where I'll just record a conversation
with someone to see what are they gonna give us
if if pain is gonna you know, talk to them
or not so I try to hear kind of what
they've done in their interviews and mimic that strategy. And
it's really not easy because you get into it. You
(47:12):
want them to tell you what's next. Want a conversational.
You don't want to sit there and just not say anything.
They're like, are you there are things? Okay? You want
to be engaged enough and just find a little moments
like yeah, just like be there with them in the conversation,
but not talk over them or steer it too much.
It just takes practice pretty much. And I was gonna say,
(47:32):
you know, part of um um how stuff works and
tenderfoot working together. I think our approach with creators is
to kind of let them have the floor and let
it let them do get their way and so um
it gets a little hairy at the end as we're
trying to put an episode to bed and all that stuff.
And that's absolutely okay, um, But I just I don't,
(47:57):
like I was talking about earlier about like there being
a template for how you do a show. The last
thing that we want to do is tell Pain and
Meredith and Donald like, this is the way you need
to do the show, because this is the way that
House to Works has always done that show. And so
it doesn't mean that we don't add, you know, certain
riggers and discipline about production and research and kind of
(48:20):
all that stuff. That's why we're working together. But I
stand firm and saying like we need to let creators
tell their story and every one of them can be
completely different and have different personalities, and and that the
whole thing, and that's the whole point is like really
letting them run. So episode nine tonight, Episode ten, which
(48:42):
is the final episode, how do you feel about it wrapping? Now? Wow,
I need to go to the beach or something. Um.
I feel it's been like the longest feeling ten weeks ever. Um,
I don't even know how I feel about it. To
be honest, I'm still will like in it right now,
(49:02):
so I don't really even know. But um, I'm I'm
happy that people have liked this podcast and have learned
a lot. And um, I was pretty nervous about this
project because I knew it was big, and I thought
that it was another thing that it was just too
big for me. I thought that maybe I'm not the
right guy for this. You know, I actually thought those
(49:23):
things before I did it. But UM, you know, I
put a lot of effort into doing it the right
way and I think in a lot of ways it
paid off. So UM, you know, I'm I'm proud of it.
I think that the team House of Works, Donald Meredith,
everyone in the House of Works did a great job.
And UM, you know, I'm excited to see what comes next.
I'm also excited to have a complete project out there
(49:46):
one through tin and so you know, we can with
every listener I meet, I can have a full conversation
about the whole thing. That's great. Yeah, and now it's
time to um actually talk to some of your listeners
and open things that and a question in the back. Hi,
(50:10):
my name is Amila from Tokyo. I don't know you said, uh,
it's just the story. But what percentage is funct and
what percentage fish? And do you think and oh how
do you uh making effort to uh uh two take
(50:35):
a fucked mhm. Um. So All Up and Vanished and
Atlanta Monster are both factual podcasts. I've never made anything
up for stage anything or anything like that. UM, so
all the stuff you're hearing is is legit and real. Um.
I like to take these real life moments and build
(50:58):
them up to give you the same link that I
felt when when it was happening to me or anyone
else on our team who was telling the story, or
when we're going back in time to recreate a moment
that happens somewhere else. So, UM, you know, it's all
factual stuff, and you know we're proud of that, and
(51:18):
you know just what happens that with both podcasts. Now
we've dug up some crazy stories and UM, we just
choose to present them the way we do. So sometimes
you might think this that this isn't real, but it
is so. And there's another point of that, which is, um,
you know, oh my gosh, down the conspiracy rat, you know,
rabbit hole here. I have to tell you that most
(51:41):
of the stories that we are actually putting out there,
and even some of the stories you haven't heard, they've
been talked about for thirty or forty years and we're
presenting them back to the listeners. So this is actually
why this case continues to be so confusing and I think,
um so divided is the fact that these theories, whether
they were put out there by Wayne, whether other people
(52:03):
in the kind of the connected universe of this case,
the whole point is to actually say, listen, people have
been talking about all these little elements for years, and
here they are. Here they are, and again, make up
your mind. That is not us with an agenda trying
to push conspiracies. It is us actually pushing those whatever
you want to call them, up to the surface and
(52:26):
presenting them to you the listeners. Also on the conspiracy
Um conversation, I think we're not just pushing like a
crack pot conspiracy theory that one guy thought up. If
it's crack pot, millions of people actually believe that, so
it would be it wouldn't be authentic if we didn't
(52:47):
present like crazy things that millions of people believe. So
we're we're not pushing those but it's you know, it's
our duty to kind of tell the truth about all
these different opinions and what people actually believe, and then
try to break down, Okay, why does this person think
that way? I think that's what hopefully we've been able
to do that to the podcast, where if you hear
(53:08):
something this sounds crazy, we present what drove that person?
Are these millions of people to think this way? Hi,
I'm all a long time? How stuff works listener. Um,
there's a ton of new podcasts from House Touff Works
right now, a lot of different, uh than what they
were before. Is like ethnically ambiguous culture kings that sort
(53:30):
of thing. I was wondering if you to talk about
like the impetus or reasons why how stuff works sort
of decided to diversify a lot more. That's a great question.
Thanks for being a supporter. I would say, Um, you know,
we've we actually as a come. I won't bore you
with the business details, but we had the ability to
to raise some money that allows that podcast business to
(53:52):
be its own standalone business. And frankly, a lot of
our creative ambitions cannot be realized. And so I think
at last content we we saw something around thirty new
shows in some level of production where we only had
about twelve the fifteen shows total over the years. And
so you are north Star has always been around curiosity
(54:12):
and that will continue to be our core focus. But
we're also just podcast fans too, and um, we want
to Um, we want to cover lots of things like
comedy and true crime and kind of fill those gaps. Um,
we're gonna get into some fiction. We're gonna get into
to some health and wellness and some other big categories UM.
(54:34):
And we just also just didn't want it to be
you know, UM just the same UM voices. We I
think if you look at UM a snapshot of our employees, UM,
they're starting to reflect the kind of shows that we
have to. So we want more women, we want different
types of UM UM across the board with diversity. And
(54:59):
I think there's a hung or across each of those
UM those groups for more programming like this. So you're
gonna you're gonna see a lot more from us this year,
and we're really excited about it. Are they all moving
into your building? No? I mean part of this is, UM,
you know, we're not going to be able to do
every bit of this ourselves, and so we really want
to work with the best creators out there. And I
(55:21):
think you know, Painton Donald and Meredith and the Tenderfoot
team is really UM got us thinking about, UM, how
do how do we how do we do our own stuff?
But then how do we also UM tell stories that
we could never naturally do by ourselves and and kind
of go in places that we've never been. We had
never done a true crime anything until this, it was
(55:42):
a lot of shows that you guys are familiar with,
and it was new to us and a little bit daunting.
And for one last question. Hi, my name is Lisa Paint.
I know you're trying to go to the beach, but
I'm wondering what's next and how often you get approached
by people with ideas and how you decide you know
what your next project is going to be. Well, what's
(56:04):
next is up in Advantage season two before anything else,
which will be a new case and I've chose that.
I've chosen the case and it's not in Georgia, so
I can say about it now, but it's gonna come
out um summer, like late midsummer, So that'll be the
first thing up. We're also working on up in Advantage,
(56:25):
the TV series on Oxygen, which we're UM really foreign
development on and we'll be shooting some stuff in a
couple of months and so hopefully that'll come out within
the year, and also some stuff with a Letta Monster
as far as UM possibly doing some visual stuff for
that as well, and then they'll eventually be another podcast
UM from me Tenderfoot UM in the same vein as
(56:49):
these possibly UM there's also other arenas I want to
jump into it, or other genres as just say uh.
In the podcast world, I want to jump into some
being fiction as well. Um So, I don't really know
what that other project is that you're talking about, but
I do have some awesome ideas and it's it's it's
brewings right now. So pop, that answered your question. Great well,
(57:13):
thank you, Thank you Payne. I know you've been traveling
and trying to finish the last episode, so we really
appreciate you being here. It's done, done, one am tonight.
Jason on the way out to get us phone because
it's on there. Thank you, Jason, this guy, thank you.
(57:33):
This podcast is brought to you by tune In, which
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And Atlanta. Another body was this covering today at Police
Task Force headquarters. There are twenty seven faces on the wall, murdered,
one missing. We do not know the person or persons
whatever responsible. Therefore, we do not have the moody from
Tenderfoot TV and how stiff works in Atlanta. Like eleven
other recent victims in Atlanta, Rogers apparently was a fixynor.
(00:28):
Atlanta was unlikely to catch the killer unless he keeps
on killing. This is Atlanta monster. That's a great crowd.
They're ready. Uh it's ten pm. Do you know where
(00:51):
your children are? We have kind of a young audience here.
How many of you remember hearing that as a kid
growing up? And did you know the story behind it?
I know, I for one, kind of felt like it
was strange and I didn't really understand, but I knew
it was bad, but I didn't know what the true
story was behind it. And as we get in today,
I'd love to hear kind of how you came together, um,
(01:13):
from your two sides of how stuff works and Tenderfoot
TV to bring the story to life. Well, it actually
starts with you, guys, because was it email me first?
Or how that work? It was it was really weird. Um,
believe it or not, We're in the same building in
Atlanta and we didn't know it. Um, And through some
circumstances I found out and I said, hey, I reached
(01:38):
out to Paint and said, let's come on down and
have coffee and some So Painton and Donald came down,
and uh, we just started talking and I said, you know,
up and vanishes really great, and I think the next
project that we should do together is on this Atlanta
child murders case that I was nine ten years old
at the time. Really fascinating, even though I didn't live
(01:59):
anywhere near Atlanta. And they looked at me like, yeah,
we talked about that two weeks ago, and uh, and
we kind of looked at each other and said, well,
then we have to do it. Yeah. I mean he
did to take it one step, you know, back, one
step further. The reason we were even in the same
building is because we're looking for office space. And then
pain was like, I think how stuff works is in
the same buildings. Were like, okay, well that's he was
(02:20):
the deal. Listen the real podcast. Yeah, yeah, the truth
comes out on the tune in stage. So basically, you
were hunting down down right. So but um, yeah, So
you know when we sat down with Jason and he
presented the idea of a lot of child murders to us,
you know, we had literally just talked about it weeks ago,
and it was something that Paine hadn't heard about before. Um,
(02:43):
he wasn't even born when it was happening, when the
when the merger were taking place. Um, I was about
four years old, all the way in California, that's two
thousand miles away from where those tragedies were. You know,
we're happening. But I still remember hearing about it, and
UM remember those commercials, not not really understanding what's back
of those commercials were about, but just growing up being
(03:03):
black and um, just having this effect the black community
with the black black victims. Um. And and eventually they
you know, caught a black serial killer. Um. It was
something that we just I just heard about all the time.
So we're looking for something to do a new podcast
before the seconds even up Advantaged and I said, you know, Paint,
(03:23):
have you heard this before? And I sent him and
send it to him and he was intrigued, and you know,
just went from there and Jason, what was it about?
Working with Payne and Donald that you an aside from
them stalking outside your building. Yeah, I didn't have a
choice at that point, you know. I think, Um, you know,
House Works has been doing podcasts for about ten years,
(03:44):
you know, and UM, what I appreciate about podcasts, um,
and I hope this stay is true, is that there's
not kind of a cookie cut cutter template to how
things should be done. And what I really really appreciated
about Up and Advantaged is it was there was kind
of no rules and so so pain you know, came
from filmmaking. Um, he had definite ideas around kind of
(04:08):
what it meant to tell his story. And I loved,
you know, the layered approach to things, using sound, using
music for emotion, um, you know, frankly, kind of being
fearless about it. Where, UM, I feel like we don't
do that enough in the industry, where let's let's tell
a big story, let's talk to everyone that we can
and see where it goes, and you might be surprised
(04:30):
where that story might end up. And I think Up
and Vantage is a perfect example of if you're persistent
and you embed yourself in the community and you talk
to people and they just know that you're someone they
can talk to. Things can happen. And I think, um,
that was just really interesting to me and um and
and it just speaks to telling big stories. And I
(04:52):
think that this industry is just right for you know,
early on it was serial it was s town, etcetera, etcetera.
Think there should be twenty or thirty or forty of
these each year where these kind of monumental layered stories
with you know, kind of so many twists and turns,
but also just the layers of that story are just
super interesting to me. And so I really admired all
(05:16):
those qualities. And I've kind of felt like the combination
of our efforts would um would kind of be a
power house story if we really put our heads together.
And I think I think we've done that now. This
story in particular, no one was telling. There haven't been movies,
there haven't been kind of the same the There's been
some books in writing, but there just hasn't been the
same kind of continuous examination that there have been for
(05:40):
things like The Zodiac Killer. How did you feel about
that in terms of coming into it and the approach
that you took, but also knowing that there was so
much hesitation from other people jumping into it. It really
that was one of the main you know, motivations behind
(06:02):
us wanting to do it was that Paine never heard
of it. He grew up in Kennesaw. I was after
you know, it happened. But you know, plenty of people
didn't grow up during the era of you know, Zodiac
or you know these other serial killers that have been
you know ingrained in our mind through TV series and
books and all these different um adaptations of movies, but
(06:25):
this was something where it was kind of forgotten, and
you know, doing some digging within the podcast, it's there's
there's a reason why, um. I think initially, you know,
these were all poor black victims and just historically you're
not going to get the same attention being poor number
one and then being a minority number two. So that's
one of the reasons. But also, you know, there's a
(06:45):
lot of political stuff involved with this um with these murders,
and it was something that Atlanta wanted to forget about.
So within the investigation, you know, we um uncovered some
of that stuff and just had a better understanding ourselves
of why you know, I was hearing about it, but
we took it upon our I'll just say, look, if
you've never heard about this, it's important and you should
know about it. So we want to just tell that
(07:05):
story and read. The ultimate goal was, look if we
can bring the millennial generation who's never heard of it
and the black community who's familiar with it, but they're
not really um having maybe heard the entire story because
there's been so much rumor and um, so many conspiracy
theories throughout the years, which happens when you don't have,
you know, a platform to tell to speak truth from.
(07:26):
So I wanted to bring these two groups in the
middle somewhere to meet and just have a conversation about race,
about um, you know, the criminal justice system. And I
think that's what we've been able to do. Yeah, I
was just gonna say, Um, there was a little bit
of the perception early on was I don't know. We
we got a lot of comments from people that say, oh,
there's no way that Pain couldn't have heard of this case. No, No,
(07:50):
he's just making he's just he's making that up for
a story. And I gotta tell you, Um, the two
crowds of people that have actually given us tons of feedback,
one has been the people that were alive at the time,
and they remembered it, but they didn't really remember it
when psychics and all this crazy stuff happened. And then
literally a whole generation of people that says, wait, so
(08:12):
twenty eight African American kids were killed and I never
knew about this, And I think, you know, pain is
a lot like our audience in terms of like, how
could such a big tragedy happen? And there never kind
of be a big stage to tell this like some
of the other serial killers, um in our history of America.
And that was kind of a surprise for us. Yeah,
(08:33):
I found out pretty quickly the born eight seven there
was a lot of people like me, I just turned
thirty this year that had never heard of this at all,
and um, you know, it's such a big tragedy that
affected not only the city of Atlanta but just the
whole nation that I found it interesting that there was
others out there like myself who had never heard of it.
And that was one of the reasons that I chose
(08:53):
to to continue researching this story and to make it
into a podcast, and not only researching, by creating and
producing it up to the very last minute before published.
So how many people here are caught up? And are
you all waiting to go home tonight for the drop
of the final episode. Well, we have a surprise for
(09:15):
you because we have a preview clip of the final episode.
We do. I'm kidding, we do, we do. Pay do
you mind just setting it up for us? So this
is um Dale Russell. It's actually a preview for tonight's episode.
There's one episode next week which will be ten, which
is the finale. So it's a nice episode, episode nine.
(09:35):
It's called the Trial, and this is Dale Russell. He's
a Fox five Atlanta reporter and he's talking about during
the trial when Wayne blew up on the stand and
it kind of changed the trajectory of why or just
how he's How he was convicted in the first place
is one of the major points. So this is him
talking about it. They had a breaking They had to
(09:59):
show the jury a different sign of Wayne Williams. They
hand to let the jury see that this unassuming guy
sitting in front of them had this other sign to
his personality, and they got it. Wayne Williams was not
the mild Mannard witness we saw the last two days.
(10:19):
He was irritable, arrogant assistant d A. Jack Mallard had
him right where he wanted him. He finally broke, and
he snapped at the prosecutor. He called FBI agents goons,
didn't answer some of the prosecutor's questions and said his
own defense attorney Mary Welcome, forced him to give an
interview for money. You want the real Wayne Williams. When
(10:41):
you got him right here as an observer, he was electric. Mallard,
Mr Williams, you've been eating up all this worldwide publicity,
haven't you, Williams, No, I haven't. I'm tired of sitting here.
You're telling these folks I fit the profile, Mallard. Wasn't
these murders your center stage? Williams, you must be a
cool I distinctly remember writing down I've got it here
(11:04):
for you, looking up at somebody I don't remember who,
making eye contact and looking at the edge O. They
were like, oh my gosh, here we go, Here we go.
So I think a lot of people are wondering about
that first conversation. How can you talk to us, like
how that unfolded with Wayne? With Wayne, how you felt
(11:27):
about that? Um, it was weird to be honest, Um,
it was I think you were in the room, and
you were in the room and I was like be quiet,
like one of those things. Um, And I didn't know
what to expect. I was being introduced by Dwayne. Not
to be confused with Wayne and or me pain yes,
but um yeah, I was. I just thought it was
(11:49):
super weird. But um, he was very nice and he
was charismatic, and he was easy to I would say,
talk to you, but listen to at least. Um. It
was hard for me to kind of reel in and
it's sort of give any direction to the conversation like
I usually do in an interview or something. But UM, yeah,
I just found it very interesting. And it's really it's
been the same since then. It has not wavered at all.
(12:11):
He's He's the same the whole time, which is also
very interesting. So you've never seen that side of him,
the getting really agitated, And I haven't know, And I'm
just curious, um, in terms of you are you're actively
producing the show, as you're talking to him, as people
are reaching out to you, how do you balance that
(12:32):
kind of following where their story is going, but also
needing to lead it and push it it is UM
extremely difficult to say the least, actually believe it or not.
This is how difficult it is. On the way here,
I was listening to episode nine on my phone in
the elevator to get here, to make sure that there
was no mistakes in it. UM. And like that clip
(12:53):
you heard this morning, I made that this morning actually
in Atlanta. So like, this is not how you should
do your podcast at all. Please don't do this to yourself.
I agree with that, but if you do, call me,
I'll try to help you out. But seriously, it's UM.
It's crazy because it opens the door to so many
things because you know, a lot of the findings we
(13:14):
have and some revelations coming in episode nine and ten
have been because the podcast got so big and allowed
for us to find new things, new information, new people.
So in a lot of ways, it's very helpful. But
you still have to build a story arc and and
map it all out, and there's so many little technical
things that make a podcast good and you still have
(13:36):
to do those things and they take a lot of time.
So doing that and talking to Wayne in real time
and going here and going there, it's it's very difficult.
You have time for nothing, else. Um, and I'm sure
that's a thank you to Meredith. You're yes, and if yes,
thank you Meredith for putting up with all that. I was,
I was, how many interviews? Like I look at the
(13:58):
dropbox and I see all these interviews, all these files,
and I was I was trying to count how many
interviews with Wayne or clips? It's it's thirty forty maybe more.
What is it? I don't know. There was so many
folders in there that I just made a folder that
that's called stuff That's less important, and I started dumping
stuff in there that I was like, that's not important,
that's not because there was so many folders I couldn't
(14:18):
even find like one thing beca. It's probably as far
as Wayne goes, at least thirty plus calls in there,
and um, even some as recent as a few days ago.
So it's, uh, we're excited to kind of come to
a conclusion. I know a lot of people are during
what they're listening, They're like, what's the point, what are
you doing? Well, the first point was, you know, have
(14:39):
you heard this story before? Do you know all the
details to even care about how this could in the
first place. I think that we're there now obviously, and
so in episode nine, not to give too much away,
we kind of explore, well, why was Wayne convicted in
the first place? He was? So, what are those bad
parts of Wayne William's true or not? What convinced the
jury that he was get t And then from there
(15:01):
we kind of end up in this new place for
the first time, and we concluded an episode ten. I
want to give too much away, but that's where we are.
I think this room really wants you to give too
much away what we want? Well, what do you mean
maybe after the microphones turn off? Um? So, I think
what what is so wonderful is to see how many
(15:21):
people are listening, how many people you have now exposed
to this story. How did you think about the audience
that you were trying to reach and how did that
guide the decisions you made and either the production or
how you released it. I think the production. Um, you know,
there's there's different sides of this, you know, and such
(15:43):
a polarizing case. Everyone picks aside and they stick to it.
He's guilty of everything, or he's innocent, he did nothing wrong,
and you've got to find out how do you find
an audience within there that's willing to even hear this
story from a neutral perspective, and you know, we get
a couple of different things. I mean, I think pain
being the host as someone who didn't experience it growing
up as someone who's a different race than the killer
(16:05):
and the the convicted killer and the victims automatically opens
it up. So it's bigger than just a black story,
because I think it's important that everyone knows the story,
not just one race or another. It's it's the tragedy
that you know needs to be exposed so and itself.
How we were able to do it, I think UM
brought in a more broad audience and then even from
(16:27):
a from a marketing perspective, UM you know, we wanted
to reach people who weren't traditional podcast listeners. You know,
we did billboards in Atlanta, we did trailers, you know,
visual trailers before we ran UM TV commercials of that
trailer on TV one, just targeting a you know, forty
and up urban audience. So you know, we had to
(16:47):
identify who we wanted to listen to this and it
was you know, we kind of knew what that was,
but we knew we had to figure out how to
actually go get them. So we you know, we did
some things that most people don't do when when in
podcast promotion. So I think I think it worked and
I think it left an impression in Atlanta. We knew
that the people in Atlanta have heard this story, but they,
you know, were intrigued in too interested in it. So
(17:07):
the billboard just had the mug shot that if you
were around, you remembered that mug shot, and that's what
the cover is. So when when that was upon billboards,
so many people have come to me and said, oh, yeah,
I saw this on Spring Street or on Ponce and
it intrigued them to usually hadn't listened, it was on
their mind to go and listen. And those and those
billboards were right in the same parts where actually a
(17:30):
lot of these kids were found. Um where we're in
in the Atlanta where in midtown Atlanta, um and kind
of in a what two to five mile radius is
where most of those kids first started disappearing. And it's
it's very humbling when you hear a clip about someone
who called into a pastor. I think it was episode
or episode episode two or three, and I'm talking about
(17:51):
Ponce daileone Avenue We're like, that's our address. The guy
was down the street at a bar when he called,
and it's just it really brings it home. UM. I
love what Donald said about bringing in new listeners. Um.
Every part of what we did we wanted to kind
of do something big and different. So it wasn't just
the story. It was we actually hired an actor and
(18:13):
shot some scenes. We did, uh throwing a um what's
his name? What was the name of the body, rescue Randy,
rescue Randy over the bridge, and just trying to kind of, um,
just do things differently. We dropped four audio trailers or
teasers before to build up interest, so kind of UM,
build that buzz, and I think it actually drove people
(18:34):
nuts because they couldn't stand it anymore. And then UM
and four video video trailers that would play out in
different mediums and kind of educate people. And if they
saw it, they would say, wait, what what was that?
Like There's shots of UM pulling kids out of a
river and a little boy that's scared of going outside
at night, and it just it instantly makes you think,
(18:56):
I don't know what this is, but I have to
listen to this right now. And so UM that was
a combination of having audio teams, video teams, archives, the
whole thing to tell a big story. And and that's
just going big. Yeah. A lot of people thought it
was a you know, television series or something because it
was high quality of visuals and re enactments that we use.
And when you see it on TV or you see
(19:16):
it on the internet and it looks like it looks good,
we don't want them to think of it as a podcast.
So I don't know what that is or you know,
I don't listen to podcasts. We want to be good
enough to where you'll go anywhere to find it. And
I think, you know, um, I think we did. We
did that, and I think it's still growing and kind
of we want to just set the bar for like
how you promote important projects and podcasts. They're they're growing there.
(19:39):
You know, they're big and they should be treated as such,
you know what I mean with the marketing and you know,
just a little more innovation from the promotions and marketing side.
Now you mentioned archives. Jason and I have a shared
love of American history and primary source materials. Um, I'd
love for you to talk about how much that influenced
the story and I think a big thank you has
(20:02):
to go out to the archivists who kept all this
material for you to then dig through. It is Jason's
expertise here, it's it's it's interesting backstory. So, um, the
University of Georgia has been holding onto ws TVs video archives.
It's down in a vault in a basement in University
of Georgia, which is what about an hour or so
(20:23):
outside of Atlanta and Athens, Georgia. And uh, they've just
had all these original they were video clips and they
have a series of researchers and archivists that we're waiting
one day for someone to show up and want to
tap into this and it was us, And um, I
just I think it adds again that layer to the
(20:44):
story that is interesting. It also it's jarring when you
hear um people talking about so and so identified themselves
as a homosexual and and it's just not the way
we talk anymore. And this was this wasn't kind of
you know, Joe, average person on the street. This is
actually the news media reporting on these things. And it's
(21:06):
just I think hearing stories told differently, um using that
that archive material, but also to kind of move the
story forward in an emotional way. I think it's really interesting,
but pain can speak to this. We didn't just want
this to be a history lesson or a History channel
type experience. It needed to go deeper than that, and
(21:27):
so the the archive footage was always meant to help
move the story forward, but not be the story itself.
You think. One just interesting tidbit about the archives that
you guys might find interesting is that, like each clip
you hear is thirty seconds or sixty seconds of a
clip that's like an hour long, and then there's literally
(21:50):
several thousand clips. And so they went through and tagged
all the clips by name and number with time codes
and kind of described what was being talked about. But
so in between there you have all this other bizarre
stuff from the eighties and it's actually some of its hilarious,
just actually looking back and seeing just society in nineteen age. Yes, yes,
(22:11):
bizarre things from the eighties, so that now we just
have to talk about it. We weren't going to talk
about it, but now we have to talk about it.
Jason's US Weekly Magazine another obsession. I'm a history major,
so I get into this stuff. I mean, and I
talked about this on our special episode called The Vault,
which is the fact that um Wayne was just all
(22:33):
over the media and kind of attached to this, and
he did an interview with US Weekly with just kind
of this salacious um dramatic magazine. And I got obsessed
trying to find this, and so I searched the internet.
It wasn't anywhere. I found it on eBay, ordered it
and got kind of to pristine copies of the two editions,
and there was and it was kind of positioned next
(22:56):
to old cigarette ads and liquor ads and and kind
of all the stuff, and I just I still, I
look at it and I can't get my can't get
my arms around it and understand it. But it is
another crazy layer to this case, for sure. And I
borrowed it from you and you text me was like
do you still have the magazine? I was like, yeah, still, okay,
could you bring it to me when you're done. It's like, yeah, sure,
that's fine, So full disclosure. I asked Jason to bring
(23:19):
it today. I think he was afraid to have it
leave his office. It's it's probably on his desk in
a case. You brought it in your pocket so actually
what that what that brings us to is how how
are you balancing then the first person because I think
to your point, Jason, you didn't want this to feel
like a history lesson and you really went out and
(23:41):
drove around the neighborhoods where this, where this happened. How
did you balance those two of the archival and then
um first person interviews? Well, to me that the history
element of this is actually the most important part of it.
But me as a listener thinking objectively about this project,
that would be boring to me. And so I wanted
(24:03):
to bring new information and mesh the two together and
tell a different story than just me playing archive clips
for you and playing interviews of people just recounting what
happened one time. UM, I wanted to bring in new information,
explore theories, but also stay true to the archives and
(24:24):
everything else and all the racial bar bifurcations that are
just so prevalent in the story and UM, just tell
it the right way. And to me, that was sticking
true to the history of it, because the history is important,
but also bringing new information to the table. And what
did you feel like you UM wanted to tell so
(24:45):
far that you haven't been able to because you have
done some of the extra episodes where you've delved into
the side stories. Is there anyone, any story is still
nagging at you? Um, it's it's hard to say. I mean,
there's this story is so complex and there's so much
you could tell. You could make a hundred podcasts on this,
but UM, to me, the biggest thing and it's I
(25:07):
want to just tell people so badly like what I'm
thinking sometimes, but this is not really the place to
do that. Um. There's also what I sayings too, were
just listen to the end, you know, listen one through
ten and then come talk to me. And so like
week by week, I'm like, just you just don't know
what you don't know yet. So like that kind of
(25:28):
stuff is, why isn't he talking about this? Lane's got him? Yeah, exactly.
Stuff like that. We also can't really say, like from
tell people what we think or Pain can't just weighing
on an opinion because the next week he might feel differently.
And we've changed positions on this thing several times. And
we have a conversation, you know, internally with our production
(25:49):
staff with Pain, and from week to week, you know,
we we might feel feel differently. So it's important that
even for us that you know, we're waiting to the
end and we say, Okay, we've digested all this, we
know you know what was left out, we know what
we've covered in the podcast, and you know, how do
we feel about this? And but yeah, you have to
wait till the end to really form an opinion. Yeah.
(26:10):
And part of that too is, UM, I think I'm
not spoiling anything when I say, um, we you know,
pain is not saying this is how I feel and
this is how you should feel. Part of this is
all of us should be listening to this and going
through a lot of those same emotions and maybe thinking, well,
you know, um, what is my bias? And why am
(26:32):
I thinking this? Is it because I'm white? Is it
because I'm black? Is it because I grew up in Atlanta?
Is it because um I was um of of age
at the time and I remember that, or maybe I
don't know anything about it, and and I think, um,
you know, one of the things that we want to
leave with um anyone that's listened is how do I
make up my own mind? But why am I making
(26:54):
my mind up in a certain way? What is my bias.
What have I collected here? And you may not have
a clear answer, And and that's okay too. Yeah, I
think that's great as a as a listener, it's it's
almost a relief to hear you say this, because I
certainly from week over a week would feel one way
and then listen to the next episode and feel the
(27:15):
other way. And sometimes would hear Wayne and as he's
going down kind of his pathways, of the conversations you're
having with him, just even in that moment listening to
him would change my my perception of him. But you
can't forget either. I can't tell you how to feel
about something. And a lot of the way I presented
this was you tell me what you think about Episode five,
(27:38):
Wayne's World. Wayne talking to me. I'm not gonna tell
what I think. You tell me what you think. You know,
I'm gonna put it out there. I'm not gonna influence
you at all. I'm gonna make sure it's all there
and the important parts are highlighted. But that's kind of
what this is in a lot of ways, is what
did you get from this? And you'll see very quickly
(27:58):
this is why it's so complicated, so why people still
talk about this. I definitely think that's why it's so
compelling as a listen because you you do have to
think through that, and you're pushing us as listeners to
get to that point. Um. I know that you've got
in some some heat for saying you're not a podcaster, um,
but I'd love to hear you kind of talk about
(28:18):
that and how that impacts your storytelling. What does that
mean to you? And is it this being able to
say I'm just gonna put something out there and let
the audience react as they see fit. Yeah, I said
I'm not a podcaster one time, and people got mad
about that. But what I actually meant, if you heard, um,
was it podcast movement? The little thing I said, basically
(28:40):
it was, is that I was scared to make podcasts
before I made a podcast because I didn't think that
I fit in and I still don't fit in that well.
But it turns out that doesn't matter, actually, And that
was the whole point. It's not that I don't like podcasters.
If I didn't like podcasters and me and Jason went
me friends, but like, seriously, it's to me, it's just
(29:03):
the whole labeling of things people you know have a
problem with like when you're doing a podcast, well, what
are you? You filmmaker? You have made a film. It's like,
why do I have to be labeled something? And I
kind of just like tell stories and do stuff in
two years if I'm doing something wildly different, am I
still what I am today? Or am I just the
same person? I'm just growing. So I just don't like
(29:24):
the label thing very much. And the podcast label really,
in all, honestly almost deterred me from making a podcast.
I did not think that I I fit in. I
just that was not my thing. So why would I
be good at that? Why would people listen to that?
And really, like, genuinely I almost didn't do it because
of just that and not look back like, wow, that
(29:45):
would have been really stupid if that's why I didn't
do it. So I just choose to tell that story
that way. So yeah, I'm still on a podcast. When
people ask and I alsot it's steams from up and
vantaged episode one where you know, we kind of just
disarmed the listener by saying, look, I'm I'm paint Lendsy.
I'm doing this podcast, but beware, I'm not a podcaster.
(30:07):
I'm not a journalist, I'm not an attorney. I'm just
really not qualified to be doing this. So, you know
what a judgment too hard And that's where you know,
that's what sparked it. So, I mean, it wasn't made
a statement. It was like to the podcast world. It
was to the five thousand listeners of Up and Vantished
Episode one, and it just became, you know, it just
(30:30):
steamrolled in this bigger thing. And to be honest, you
know when we first, you know, we we know each
other through the music industry, and um, we're both burnt
out of you know, being in the music industry and
just the monotony of you know, what we're doing, and
you know, pain and say look I want to do
something on the TV and film space. I said, look,
I'm I'm down. Let me know what I can do
to hell. So Up and Vanished The Disappearance of Terry
(30:52):
Grinstead was supposed to be a documentary, and then when
we realized that it costs too much money for us
to to do a documentary by ourselves, he decided, let's
make this a podcast and stay. So the entire idea
of us getting into a new field and doing some
storytelling was about film and TV, not about podcasting. So
I think that's another, you know, the reason why he
(31:13):
described himself that way. And I think this comes back
to Jason. You're saying just looking for the big stories
and really being able to jump into those and and
tell those and whatever medium it is. Yeah, I was
saying this yesterday on the panel, Um that it was
a part of I think I got this right. But
I think it's been forty three days since Cyrial launched.
(31:33):
You've been counting every day or I did my homework
before I came here. Um, it's on the desk with
the US week and uh, I mean total props to
that show. Um, it continues to be in the top
twenty or top thirty on Apple podcasts every single week.
And so when you look at this in a positive way,
(31:55):
you'd say, you know, while that really is the starter
kit for anyone that is new to pot cast, this
is I think everyone's gone through that right. Oh my gosh, Serriel,
you have to listen to serial now. It's Cereal and
s Town and and I think that's been great to
kind of get people in the door. But I think
we need to tell bigger stories and kind of the
idea around Atlanta Monster was how does Tenderfoot and House
(32:18):
to Works kind of come together as as uh, cool
credible storytellers with different expertises and different voices and different
disciplines and and kind of elevate um in our own way,
UM one story that might be bigger and and do
things creatively. And we're starting to see more people kind
of getting out there and and I look at the
(32:40):
industry and I want to see more, and I think
listeners do too. I think they're hungry for more, and
we need to give them more. Um. That's why everyone's
talking about Atlanta Monster. Not I'm not trying to kind
of say that we're awesome and we're promoting ourselves, but
we I think we fed them something they really wanted.
I say, you're awesome, what's up? Thank you? That's nice.
(33:02):
So I'm actually hearing um. A lot of people say
that Up and Vanished has now been their first podcast
that they hear about a podcast. And I feel like
for a lot of people, Cereal was that that starter kit.
But now I'm hearing Up and Vanished. How do you
feel about that? That's pretty cool because Cereal is why
I made a podcast, basically because I would not have
known what podcasting was if my friend didn't say, hey,
(33:25):
I ever heard of Cereal? I was like, no, what's that?
And then I started listening to Cereal. And then so
when I went to go make this uh up and
Vantaged documentary which is gonna be a TV series, at first, um,
I was like, well I really liked Cereal. Someone to
go look for other true kind podcasts to kind of
see how it was made or what was out there,
and I decided that I should make one. Don't Yeah,
(33:49):
I mean, that's the biggest compliment to me is when
someone says, look, you you brought me into this new space.
Never listened to a podcast before, because I hadn't listened
to a podcast until Up and Vantage episode one. That's
the first podcast I ever listened to. And then Pain
was like, um, probably right about right, maybe a day
before yeah, I mean probably yeah, yeah, but you know.
(34:14):
And then the first thing Pain told me was, look,
if we're gonna do this and do it right, go
you gotta go listen to Cereal. And so the second podcast,
let's do with Cereal. And then when it started to
blow up, we said, okay, look we now have a
podcast business. So then I listened to Startup, which was
a cheat sheet for how we're gonna start up our own,
you know, podcasting company. So you know, this just goes
(34:35):
to show you could have not not be a podcast listener.
I never have made a podcast before. And you know,
it's all about the storytelling and trying to tackle big
stories and and just telling them in a way that's
that's compelling to the listener. And I think you shouldn't
shy away from controversial stories, you know, stories where you
know they're gonna be polarizing to listener. You you have
to really tell the big stories and and and it
(34:58):
intreagues people and brings them in when they feel like
this is something that I can't talk to everyone about.
Guess what podcasting really is. It's you and you're earbuds.
You know, it's a private experience, and you want to
try to bring that out to the larger community, and
people obsess over they want to talk to their friends
about it. All right, you listen to up Advantage, You're
listening to a lot of monsters, So that's what we
want to hear that. You know, Hey, I never listened
(35:20):
to this, but it was so good, and I heard
about it so much that I wanted to come into
the podcast under the podcasting tent just to listen to
your podcast. So yeah, that's what I love about audio.
It's it can go from being that really personal, intimate
experience to them that very shared community. Exactly that when
you find someone else that's listening to the show that
you love, you just cannot wait to talk to them
(35:40):
about it. How do you build that connection with your audience.
It's it's hard to say exactly because I'm on the
other end of it. I don't have the same experience
as you have. Sometimes I wish I had that experience
with this show or whatever show I'm working on, because
you know, you hear it so much. It's not they're
the same anymore. All the material is just not the same.
(36:03):
Um to me, it's like who in here makes a
podcasts or wants to anyone in here trying to do that? Okay,
that's pretty good amount. When we say like good storytelling,
do you even know we're talking about? I would be like,
what are you talking about? Like you know what I mean? Um,
I think that a good podcast, at least the kind
(36:25):
that we've been making it's not just telling a good
overall story, it's the very tiny little things the matter.
It's like, for example, I'm taking the ums out of
someone talking, just making the listening experience clean, and you
begin you begin to depend on it, and you don't
even know what those things actually are anymore. You might
(36:47):
listen to another podcast like, I don't know, I don't
like it as much, but I don't really know why.
It's those little things. So we're always focusing on those details.
We're trying to make it sound good. We're we're also
we're trying tell a big story and to tell it right,
but we're also focusing just as much on making something
sound good. So like, if you want to make your
own podcast, you know, that's really what you should focus on.
(37:10):
To be honest. If you have good content and you're
trying your hardest and it sounds good, then it's gonna
be good. People are gonna like it. Yeah, And I think, um,
I love um the kind of backstory on the use
of music in the in the podcast to um and
that's highly underrated as a as a mechanism for for
driving emotion and podcasts. And uh, I mean I love
(37:34):
how this kind of got cranking. I got got cranking
as we as we. I want this eighties music throughout
the whole thing. And I found this guy on Spotify.
His name is Makeup and Vandy Set. It's just one guy.
I thought it was this big group of people who
know its just a guy in his laptop. He's awesome. Um.
But I called him up also, like, hey, would you
be interested in basically scoring this podcast? And he had
(37:58):
never listened to a podcast either. Then he listened to
Up and Up and Vanished and was like, I totally
get it now, and he just progressed as every episode
has gone by making amazing music. To me, I like that.
I like being submerged in a sequence and just sort
of being there in the moment. Some people don't like
the music. I kind of like it, so that's why
you always hear it that way. But you know, make
(38:19):
what you like and just making your best that's pretty
much it. How much of that is an influence from
your music background, I don't know. I think it's just
kind of to me. I always sort of thought podcasts
were kind of boring. Um. I didn't really listen to
talk radio that much, so I didn't really kind of
get into that. So when I first made up and vanished,
(38:41):
I was trying to make something that I thought was compelling,
what would suck me in, And so I had this
sort of these music beds in the background and just
sort of setting the scene and making this tone that
really grabs you. So it comes from that really, to
be honest, yeah, I'd agree. I mean, paintings, music, background
goes it goes back a long way. So he understands,
(39:02):
you know, production, He understands the timing, even when it
comes to how interviews are edited, and you know how
that one second pause or you know, those things make
a big difference. Things are huge. Yeah, So if you
don't know why you like one one podcast more than
another has a lot to do with the editing, the production.
I think also, you know, the music, like we talked about,
but I think the relatability of the host plays a
(39:26):
huge part in it, because you could listen to a
really great story or you know, interesting story, but the
person who's delivering that story is just the language they speak,
isn't the language that you're understanding how they phrase things.
I feel like when I started listening to podcasts and
(39:46):
I felt like, is the host just trying to show
me how smart they are by the way they're trying
to tell the story. I just want to hear a
good story. It doesn't have to be told from the
perspective or from you know you. You spent you know,
days and weeks writing this one part to see let
me let me, you know, go in the saurus and
figure out a better word to say here that makes
(40:08):
me sound even smarter. It's like, just just tell me
your story so I can relate to it. And and
those are the things that you know, you like, why
do I like this and not that one? Both could
be good stories, but how is it relating to you?
With pain, he's he's like the audience when it comes
to like, oh, I might go and knock on the
door just like that. But the journalists or the attorney
might not take that approach. They might say, oh, that's
(40:30):
that's not the way we would do it by the book.
But pain is like, Okay, let me call this guy up,
let me recordious call you know, so as things that
we would just all do as a listener if we
were hosting our own podcast. I think that's a huge
part of it. So you're saying that I should buy
a thesaurus. Basically, yeah, definitely got it. I was just
gonna say, there's there's a clip at the beginning I
(40:51):
think is it episode five, and it's a really frustrating
to three minute um interlude of all the things you
had to go through to actually connect with Wayne on
the call. And you know, some people are like, oh,
how could you do that? That is yeah, you're like, okay,
(41:12):
well it's a little long, but you're like, I knew that.
But actually, to be honest, the whole thing took about
fifteen minutes. And that was about two and a half minutes.
I kept treating a DOWNSA, this is a little too long.
About wanted you to be like, good greed, this is ridiculous.
You'll hear that confirmation number. I was like, this is
that is That's the longest number I've ever been read.
Someone has to hear this. It reminded me of the
(41:33):
old dial up days when you're waiting for the modem.
Exactly this is what you have to do. I thought
I was intriguing. I was like, this is what everyone
does when they talk to someone in ja illness is insane. Yeah,
and then I mean not to get too intellectual about it,
but um, like, wow, the prison system and everything about
this bureaucratic nightmare is broken. Um, and look what you
(41:56):
have to do to just talk to someone. And I
just just putting it out there for people who observe
and frankly get a little frustrated themselves as they listen to.
That's the whole put you there, that's the whole point.
So you did go and knock on doors and show
up at people's houses. How did you build the report
to get them to talk to you? To be honest,
(42:17):
I didn't really have one. I didn't think I did
at least I just just called people and said, hey,
you don't know me, I want to talk basically, But no,
I mean, to be honest, it's a very tragic story.
So depend on who you're talking to. You're always sensitive
to who this person is and how they're related to
this case and this story. You can't ever forget that.
(42:37):
It's the most important part of this. So if you're
always keeping that in mind, and you're trying to be
a people person and just find a way to relate
to somebody, then most of the time it works. Yeah.
I mean, don't let your own voice get in the
way of someone being able to tell you a story.
And I think especially if you if you listen to
(42:59):
episode one, I think you're barely in that episode, and
it's it's because that was intentional. Yeah, I mean, it's
it's I've seen some press on this where yes, we
talked to FBI agents and a p D officers and
television anchors, but actually just talking and of course um
you know, um families, um, of the victims and such,
(43:21):
but also just people who grow up at that time
and listening to those people. I think it's just super important,
and it's just you know, hey, I grew up in
this neighborhood and this is how I felt and then.
And they don't have to be anyone that is of
a high position in the city or or we're involved
in the case. We just want to know how you feel.
That's super important to just listen every single interview. You
(43:41):
hear every single one. Meredith and I are both there
in person for every single one of them, and I
often intentionally just remove myself from it. So this person
is telling their story, it's not my story, and I
just think it sounds better that way. It's more natural. Um,
you know, I'm not trying to be a part of
(44:02):
the conversation with them. I don't know anything about what
they're telling me. You know, I'm hearing it for the
first time, like you guys are as they're telling me.
So I'm not trying to, you know, broadcast a conversation
with somebody. I'm trying to ask the right questions so
they can kind of take the stage themselves. And then
what's your process of putting it together? Because now you
were there for it, hearing it the first time, and
(44:23):
then obviously when you're adding it, you're hearing it over
and over again. How do you not get too close
and actually kind of bring yourself back to that moment
of hearing it for the first time. Um, as you're
listening to it, as you do the interview, you kind
of go, oh, yep, that's a that's pretty important, or
that's a good part, or that's a really interesting lot
line that has to go in there. So stuff like that.
(44:44):
You kind of just trying to remember that or take notes.
But then when it comes down to the interview, you
have to kind of go back and forth. When you're
editing from going from thinking super objectively and like broad
about it and then being very hyper focused on one
little thing about the way this actually sounds, not what
the word means, but does this sound funky? Is this
(45:05):
sound okay? And then you know, does this story chronologically
makes sense? And then should I interject myself here and
give a little further explanation on that or should I
just you know, put this here so it makes sense
to come right after that? And the goal for me
is to the less narration that's needed, the better podcast
(45:25):
edit it is. If it can go five minutes without
me talking, that means that it all made enough sense
for you to sit back and hear people just talking
and you know what's going on. I think that's pretty
hard to do. So if you can do that, you're
doing a pretty good job. Yeah you're great, Yes, okay,
Donalds are great. That's good. Yeah, that's that's sauces right there,
(45:48):
and the and the edit and in not getting in
your own way. You know, the worst thing you can
do is over talk if you're interviewing someone, because they
could be about to say something great and then here
you come bumbling all over the place and interjecting what
you want them to say. Are trying to get to
the point fashion than that they you know, than the
pace that they're going to get to it eventually. At
(46:09):
so I think, yeah, just sitting back and letting people
talk and then you know, being able to pull those
little things out, that's what You'll have a questions sometimes
and I'll just sit there five seconds of like awkward
silence with somebody and I'm just like, and they're like
they always talk, so and they just start filling the
(46:29):
air with something because they feel obligated to you know
what I mean. It's like it felt weird to me
at first, just kind of just you know someone's gonna
eventually start of talking about Like it's not like a standoff.
It's more like a you know, I'm not I'll just
be waiting a little bit longer than someone else might
be waiting, and then before I'm about to talk, they
start talking. It's actually a great negotiation tactic, just so
(46:50):
you know myself, you can save that for later, because
it's not as easy as it sounds like. I do
some like pre interviews where I'll just record a conversation
with someone to see what are they gonna give us
if if pain is gonna you know, talk to them
or not so I try to hear kind of what
they've done in their interviews and mimic that strategy. And
it's really not easy because you get into it. You
(47:12):
want them to tell you what's next. Want a conversational.
You don't want to sit there and just not say anything.
They're like, are you there are things? Okay? You want
to be engaged enough and just find a little moments
like yeah, just like be there with them in the conversation,
but not talk over them or steer it too much.
It just takes practice pretty much. And I was gonna say,
(47:32):
you know, part of um um how stuff works and
tenderfoot working together. I think our approach with creators is
to kind of let them have the floor and let
it let them do get their way and so um
it gets a little hairy at the end as we're
trying to put an episode to bed and all that stuff.
And that's absolutely okay, um, But I just I don't,
(47:57):
like I was talking about earlier about like there being
a template for how you do a show. The last
thing that we want to do is tell Pain and
Meredith and Donald like, this is the way you need
to do the show, because this is the way that
House to Works has always done that show. And so
it doesn't mean that we don't add, you know, certain
riggers and discipline about production and research and kind of
(48:20):
all that stuff. That's why we're working together. But I
stand firm and saying like we need to let creators
tell their story and every one of them can be
completely different and have different personalities, and and that the
whole thing, and that's the whole point is like really
letting them run. So episode nine tonight, Episode ten, which
(48:42):
is the final episode, how do you feel about it wrapping? Now? Wow,
I need to go to the beach or something. Um.
I feel it's been like the longest feeling ten weeks ever. Um,
I don't even know how I feel about it. To
be honest, I'm still will like in it right now,
(49:02):
so I don't really even know. But um, I'm I'm
happy that people have liked this podcast and have learned
a lot. And um, I was pretty nervous about this
project because I knew it was big, and I thought
that it was another thing that it was just too
big for me. I thought that maybe I'm not the
right guy for this. You know, I actually thought those
(49:23):
things before I did it. But UM, you know, I
put a lot of effort into doing it the right
way and I think in a lot of ways it
paid off. So UM, you know, I'm I'm proud of it.
I think that the team House of Works, Donald Meredith,
everyone in the House of Works did a great job.
And UM, you know, I'm excited to see what comes next.
I'm also excited to have a complete project out there
(49:46):
one through tin and so you know, we can with
every listener I meet, I can have a full conversation
about the whole thing. That's great. Yeah, and now it's
time to um actually talk to some of your listeners
and open things that and a question in the back. Hi,
(50:10):
my name is Amila from Tokyo. I don't know you said, uh,
it's just the story. But what percentage is funct and
what percentage fish? And do you think and oh how
do you uh making effort to uh uh two take
(50:35):
a fucked mhm. Um. So All Up and Vanished and
Atlanta Monster are both factual podcasts. I've never made anything
up for stage anything or anything like that. UM, so
all the stuff you're hearing is is legit and real. Um.
I like to take these real life moments and build
(50:58):
them up to give you the same link that I
felt when when it was happening to me or anyone
else on our team who was telling the story, or
when we're going back in time to recreate a moment
that happens somewhere else. So, UM, you know, it's all
factual stuff, and you know we're proud of that, and
(51:18):
you know just what happens that with both podcasts. Now
we've dug up some crazy stories and UM, we just
choose to present them the way we do. So sometimes
you might think this that this isn't real, but it
is so. And there's another point of that, which is, um,
you know, oh my gosh, down the conspiracy rat, you know,
rabbit hole here. I have to tell you that most
(51:41):
of the stories that we are actually putting out there,
and even some of the stories you haven't heard, they've
been talked about for thirty or forty years and we're
presenting them back to the listeners. So this is actually
why this case continues to be so confusing and I think,
um so divided is the fact that these theories, whether
they were put out there by Wayne, whether other people
(52:03):
in the kind of the connected universe of this case,
the whole point is to actually say, listen, people have
been talking about all these little elements for years, and
here they are. Here they are, and again, make up
your mind. That is not us with an agenda trying
to push conspiracies. It is us actually pushing those whatever
you want to call them, up to the surface and
(52:26):
presenting them to you the listeners. Also on the conspiracy
Um conversation, I think we're not just pushing like a
crack pot conspiracy theory that one guy thought up. If
it's crack pot, millions of people actually believe that, so
it would be it wouldn't be authentic if we didn't
(52:47):
present like crazy things that millions of people believe. So
we're we're not pushing those but it's you know, it's
our duty to kind of tell the truth about all
these different opinions and what people actually believe, and then
try to break down, Okay, why does this person think
that way? I think that's what hopefully we've been able
to do that to the podcast, where if you hear
(53:08):
something this sounds crazy, we present what drove that person?
Are these millions of people to think this way? Hi,
I'm all a long time? How stuff works listener. Um,
there's a ton of new podcasts from House Touff Works
right now, a lot of different, uh than what they
were before. Is like ethnically ambiguous culture kings that sort
(53:30):
of thing. I was wondering if you to talk about
like the impetus or reasons why how stuff works sort
of decided to diversify a lot more. That's a great question.
Thanks for being a supporter. I would say, Um, you know,
we've we actually as a come. I won't bore you
with the business details, but we had the ability to
to raise some money that allows that podcast business to
(53:52):
be its own standalone business. And frankly, a lot of
our creative ambitions cannot be realized. And so I think
at last content we we saw something around thirty new
shows in some level of production where we only had
about twelve the fifteen shows total over the years. And
so you are north Star has always been around curiosity
(54:12):
and that will continue to be our core focus. But
we're also just podcast fans too, and um, we want
to Um, we want to cover lots of things like
comedy and true crime and kind of fill those gaps. Um,
we're gonna get into some fiction. We're gonna get into
to some health and wellness and some other big categories UM.
(54:34):
And we just also just didn't want it to be
you know, UM just the same UM voices. We I
think if you look at UM a snapshot of our employees, UM,
they're starting to reflect the kind of shows that we
have to. So we want more women, we want different
types of UM UM across the board with diversity. And
(54:59):
I think there's a hung or across each of those
UM those groups for more programming like this. So you're
gonna you're gonna see a lot more from us this year,
and we're really excited about it. Are they all moving
into your building? No? I mean part of this is, UM,
you know, we're not going to be able to do
every bit of this ourselves, and so we really want
to work with the best creators out there. And I
(55:21):
think you know, Painton Donald and Meredith and the Tenderfoot
team is really UM got us thinking about, UM, how
do how do we how do we do our own stuff?
But then how do we also UM tell stories that
we could never naturally do by ourselves and and kind
of go in places that we've never been. We had
never done a true crime anything until this, it was
(55:42):
a lot of shows that you guys are familiar with,
and it was new to us and a little bit daunting.
And for one last question. Hi, my name is Lisa Paint.
I know you're trying to go to the beach, but
I'm wondering what's next and how often you get approached
by people with ideas and how you decide you know
what your next project is going to be. Well, what's
(56:04):
next is up in Advantage season two before anything else,
which will be a new case and I've chose that.
I've chosen the case and it's not in Georgia, so
I can say about it now, but it's gonna come
out um summer, like late midsummer, So that'll be the
first thing up. We're also working on up in Advantage,
(56:25):
the TV series on Oxygen, which we're UM really foreign
development on and we'll be shooting some stuff in a
couple of months and so hopefully that'll come out within
the year, and also some stuff with a Letta Monster
as far as UM possibly doing some visual stuff for
that as well, and then they'll eventually be another podcast
UM from me Tenderfoot UM in the same vein as
(56:49):
these possibly UM there's also other arenas I want to
jump into it, or other genres as just say uh.
In the podcast world, I want to jump into some
being fiction as well. Um So, I don't really know
what that other project is that you're talking about, but
I do have some awesome ideas and it's it's it's
brewings right now. So pop, that answered your question. Great well,
(57:13):
thank you, Thank you Payne. I know you've been traveling
and trying to finish the last episode, so we really
appreciate you being here. It's done, done, one am tonight.
Jason on the way out to get us phone because
it's on there. Thank you, Jason, this guy, thank you.
(57:33):
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Atlanta Monster News
Host
Payne Lindsey
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