April 27, 2018 • 35 mins
Payne and the team answer listener questions.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:08):
In Atlanta. Another body was coming today at police Task
Dors headquarters. There are twenty seven faces on the wall, murdered,
one missing. We do not know the person or persons
that are responsible. Therefore, we do not have the mode
from Tenderfoot TV and How Stuff Works in Atlanta. Like
eleven other recent victims in Atlanta, Rogers apparently was as
fixy victor Atlanta. It was unlikely to catch the killer
(00:31):
unless he keeps on killing. This is Atlanta Monster. Hey, guys,
thanks for tuning into our first Q and A episode.
I'm Payne Lindsay. I'm here with the Tenderfoot team and
the House Stuff Works team. Hey, it's Jason here with
(00:51):
How Stuff Works Merit from Tenderfoot, and this is Donald
from Tenderfoot. And today we're gonna be going through some
of the voicemail questions. To start this off, we received
an overwhelming amount of listener voicemails ranging from all types
of questions, and today we've picked some of the best
ones and we'll be going through them individually and giving
the best answers we can. Hi, my name is Jimal Anthony.
(01:13):
Why this story? What made you guys? Decided this was
the story to tell it's a very unique story, but
it's very um complex and it seems to be ever changing,
you know, so many moving parts to it. So what
made you guys decide to pick the Atlanta child murders.
(01:34):
That's a good question. Um really, Donald all right, my
business partner here at tender Foot TV, he brought this
story to me. At first, I'd never heard of the
Atlantia Old murders. Donald, what inspired you to bring this
up in the first place? Initially, I know we wanted
to do something different, Um first podcast up and vantashed.
You know, we're planning on doing a season two of it,
but I know we wanted to do something other than
(01:55):
a missing person's case. And um, just thinking back on
my childhood, the Atlanta childmars was something I remember growing up. Um,
it affected me, and I think some of our other
listeners that are either forty and up and from the
black community especially remember hearing about this. And I was
away in California, UM, but it still affected me. You know,
I heard about it from my parents, from my uncle's
(02:16):
and it was something that just I felt like I
needed to ask you if if you had ever heard
of it before? And when I did, and you hadn't
you hadn't heard of it. I was like, how many
other people out there, you know, just don't know about
this tragic story. So I figured, look, if we can
bring this story, uh some more attention, maybe some justice
or some at least at the very least some awareness
and the closure for those families, then I think I'd
(02:38):
be worth this. You and shot yeah. And I did
some initial research after you told me about it to
see if this would be a good podcast, and I
realized very quickly how important this story was um to
the nation, especially just the city of Atlanta. Um all
the racial bifurcations in the story, the way it's sort
of shaped this city, and kind of it's had this
sort of dark cloud over Atlanta for a long time,
(03:00):
and it's something that was sort of swept under the rug.
And the more you dig into it, the more you
learn that just isn't readily available out there, right, And
I think also, I mean I learned a lot, you know,
I thought I knew about this case, and I think
a lot of people think that they know about this
case until you actually do the research listen to the podcast,
so you know the things that I thought, you know,
some of those, um were rumors, and and you know
(03:21):
those were dispelled by doing the research. So I got
a lot from it. But I think the interesting thing
also is that, you know, we sat down with Jason
from How Stuff Works, Uh, and you also, Jason had
had this idea to do this podcast, so it kind
of seemed like a perfect match and that's why we
ended up doing it together. So yeah, But when I
met you, Jason, I had just talked to Donald about
(03:41):
the Atlanta child murders case, and we met for the
first time in your office, and you brought up the
Atlanta child murders and I said, I'm not kidding my
business partner, Donald just mentioned this to me, and I
was gonna write there in between you guys, what was
your take on doing this as a podcast? You know,
for me, I was what nine or ten years old
at the time, and that image of the case, even
living far away in Wisconsin, was burned in my brain.
(04:02):
And I think what Donald said is right where, um,
something's actually surprised us here. So um the reactions from
folks who lived during that time and remembered it but
actually didn't quite remember everything. These things tend to be
urban legends the longer they get drawn out, and the
stories tend to change over time, and um, you know,
(04:22):
even if you listen to the podcast, you'll be like,
it sounds like even folks at the FBI don't quite
remember everything thirty or forty years later, and so there's
a certain mythology that that builds over time. Uh. The
second thing that, um, I think most shocked me, and
I think pain you probably feel this way too, is
how many people had no idea that this was actually
(04:43):
a story that happened, that this many African American children
were missing in murdered, and that this happened in a
major metropolitan city like Atlanta. The other why is that
it's been forty years, and part of this is what's
the same and what's different about this country in this
city actually, And we're talking about race, we're talking about economics,
(05:06):
we're talking about politics, we're talking about police and justice,
and it's pretty stunning to see certainly some things have changed,
but a lot fuels the same after forty years. Yeah.
I think I've said this before, UM, speaking about the podcast,
is that you know, there's a difference between progress and change,
and a lot has changed, but we haven't progressed as
(05:28):
much as a nation as we'd like to think. And
I think that's one lesson I want to take away
you can have from listening to this podcast. To add
to that the why now it's been forty years, Like
you're saying, a lot of these players in this case
are getting really old now, whether some of them are
not even around. So I mean, in ten years, I
don't think you could do this podcast, if you know.
(05:49):
And just kind of brings up another side note, which
is what was our goal on the podcast. So it
was an investigation and we wanted to get to the
root of the stories. But at think we discussed early on, um,
we wanted people to make up their own minds and
and here everything, even the wild crazy stuff, and make
(06:10):
up their own minds and then looking themselves and be like,
why did I think that way? What's causing me to
think that way? Is it based on things I've held
onto for years? Or is it because I really feel
compelled one way or another that the evidence is swaying me. Yeah,
I promise as a listener, whatever you were feeling, I
was feeling the exact same thing at some point. This
is so confusing, This is puzzling, Why why is this
(06:32):
like this? Do I believe this? Do I not believe this?
Those are things that people have thought for almost forty
years now. It's nothing new in this case. Everyone associated
with this has kind of a different perspective um based
on age, based on race, and like Pain being thirty,
you know, you weren't even born when this happened. You know,
Meredith's on our team even younger. Jason and I were
(06:52):
young and you heard about this growing up. But just
you too, you know, Meredith and Pain, you guys are
the generation of pot cast listeners that you know, really
don't know about the story. So just hearing about it
and learning about it in the way that you did,
you can probably relate a little bit more to the
listener um that's hearing about it firsthand from the podcast. Right.
So I didn't grow up with the story obviously like
(07:14):
either of you did. But I think it's interesting in
my perspective to still see um parallels between this story
now and what's happening today in and social issues we're
facing now, and how like you're suggesting, Donald, there might
not have been as much progress as we like to
(07:36):
think that we have, and these issues that are there,
some of them are still here in two thousand eighteen,
and I think that it's interesting to see that from
my perspective and coming across the story brand new right now. Hey, paying,
this is Wendy from North Atlanta. So my question is,
so the bridge that supposedly Wayne Williams through the body
(08:00):
off of I was wondering why it took so long
for them to recover that body. Don't bodies float when
they're first thrown in the water and then they sink later. Therefore,
they would be able to recover that body that night,
as opposed to waiting three days and then not being
able to connect it to Wayne Williams throwing the body in.
(08:22):
That's a good question. I am, by no means an
expert on uh the human body in that sense, but
from what I know, a dead body does not flow
up until the gases inside from the decomposition make it
rise to the surface. So let's assume that it was
Nathan Okator's body that was tossed off the bridge, and
(08:43):
he had died just a few hours earlier. Within that timeframe,
he likely would sink and then rise to the top later,
the FBI told us and Also, it's in the FBI
reports all the documents that they did go search for
a body that night with boats and with helicopters and
all kind of stuff, but they found nothing. So Yeah,
(09:05):
and that's not I've been fishing on the Chattahoochee many
times and it's it's very cold, very cold water, and
it's a little bit tricky to navigate. It's not the
widest river in the world. There's lots of overhanging trees,
and if you were to do that at night, it's
not the easiest thing to kind of find a clear
(09:26):
pathway and just a body be there. Um. And so
I just knowing that environment, I know it is a
little bit tricky, and I'm sort of not surprised it
took him maybe an extra day or two to to
find the body. Yeah. I think another thing is the current.
It's been suggested to us that the current was really strong.
It's also been suggested to us that the current was
relatively calm. So depending on who we talked to, we
(09:48):
get mixed information. We got mixed information about that, and
I think, um, regardless, there was a lot of time
between when they heard a splash Wayne was pulled over.
They talked to Wayne the assembled people to go out
and start investigating the splash. That was in the early
early morning hours of that night and or of that day.
(10:10):
And I think it probably took a long time before
anything was set in motion, so that could account for
some you know, missing time, or where Nathaniel Kator's body,
if it was indeed dumped that night, where it would
have been in relation to actually first hearing the splash.
But the focus was on Wayne almost immediately you have
this the splash, this uh suspicious character on the bridge.
(10:33):
It's late at night, so all the police officers the
FBI are there focused on Way Williams. They're also trying
to look for a body that one recruit claimed he
heard hit the water. So it's late, it's dark, and
I think that um even Macomis made a comment to
us offhand, the FBI agent that they didn't even launch
(10:57):
a full investigation that night in the water because the
current was strong and it was not safe to do. Yeah,
and if you think about it, they didn't even really
know for sure what they're looking for. They didn't know
Nathaniel Kator was missing at this point. It wasn't that
they were looking for someone in particular, They just here's
a kind of fishy situation, let's look into it. So
I think that definitely is a good point to bring up.
(11:18):
That mcomis they didn't know what they're looking for. They
didn't even launch an official investigation yet. I think FBI
also mentioned that the recruit under the bridge could have
been as much as fifty yards away from uh where,
directly where the body may have hit the water. So
if he's you know, under the bridge, fifty yards away
and that he hears a splash, he still used to
(11:41):
you know, walk over there and then shine his light
on the water. And by that time, I mean, even
the body has hit the water and initially come up
before it sinks again and the current takes it away.
I mean you're looking at at least a couple of
minutes of someone walking and then looking around. The body
can definitely have disappeared by that time. So you know,
there's a lot of variables. I think, um, there's no
(12:03):
definitive answer to really, they should have found it as
soon as it hit the water or three days later. Hi,
my name is Julian. I just finished listening to your podcast.
So if Wayne used to drive around the blue car
with like the police scanner, pretend to be a police
officer or be the reporter and get all the information
on the cops. How did he not know that the
cops were at the stakeout and then like, you know,
(12:24):
not and then the boy being caught regardless, It just
there's just seems to be I'm just kind of confused
about that. Well, according to Wayne Williams himself, he did
know about this. He told me it was an episode
ten in one of my last phone calls with him,
that he knew about the bridge steakouts. Was he telling
the truth? I don't know, But according to Wayne in
(12:45):
two thousand eighteen, he did know about the bridge steakouts,
and he did have a car that was like a
police car with a police scanner, so he had the
know how and the ability to hear a police scanner
and possibly find out about bridge steakouts. I don't know
if that helps or hurts his story, but that's what
he told me. That's the only time I've ever heard
(13:05):
him say of that. Do you think he was like
that that was just another turn in the story at
the end, because I don't think he even had the
police scanner in the white station wagon. I think it
was in some of the other vehicles. I just I
have a tough time believing that he knew, and if
he knew, why would he do it? Anyway? I think
Wayne tends to say things and shape things as he's
(13:27):
talking to people, UM, and he shapes the stories in
a way that fits whoever he's talking to and whatever
he's trying to get across. UM. I think in that moment,
he felt compelled to tell me that, you know, all
this is ridiculous because he knew about these steakouts when
you know. I don't know why he didn't say that
(13:49):
in his trial. I think it's a good point that
he didn't necessarily have the police scanner with him in
that car. I'm not sure if that was something. He
moved around to different cars, and he moved drowned plenty
of cars, as we know, But he did know enough
about what was going on. This is me talking assuming
that Wayne did this, But he did know enough about
(14:09):
what was going on to change the place of dumping
to the rivers. So I don't think it was out
of the question to think that he knew they would
be looking at rivers by this point. It wasn't like
this was the first body that was that had shown
up in a river. Yeah. Bottom line is kids were
turning up dead in the Chattahoochee River. That was in
(14:31):
the Atlanternal Constitution, that was in articles, it was in
the news. That was a known fact in Atlanta at
that time. And then mainly adults at the end showing
up further and further outside the Atlanta city boundaries in rivers. Again,
as Um Popcorn says, because he heard the fibers were important,
so he was stripping the clothes off of them. Um,
(14:52):
I'm actually really surprised that the law enforcement was able
to keep their steak outs a secret from the media.
I don't know if there was an agreement with the
media to keep it quiet, but for all the stuff
that happened to be able to essentially cover every one
of these bridges out in the country for thirty days
and no one knows about it, I'm still surprised that
(15:12):
that didn't get out. I thought it was suggested to
us once that maybe people didn't know exactly what was
going on and where, but that they knew that police
were steaking out new locations. Even Captain Dave Captain Dave
said off hand in our interview that he recalls on
the police skinner they were using code words. I don't
(15:33):
remember what the word was, but it was something. It
was some street name that he had never heard of
in Atlanta. He said, where is this street? Where is
this turns out it was a code word for the
bridge steak out and he found this out during that
time period. So way Williams having the same access that
this guy has, And you know, it's plausible that Wayne
(15:54):
would know about the bridge steak out. The question is
then if he did, like Wayne saying, if he did
know about the bridge steake out, then why does he
go into the bridge at three in the morning. Yeah,
it's it's surprising, but it is conceivable. And I think
it's important that to remember that when he was pulled over,
at least to us, he suggested that when um, he
was questioned, he said, is this about the kids? Even
(16:16):
if he's claiming his innocence, he knew that he was
being pulled over in association with you know, the kids
being missing and turned up murdered. So also, I think
he could have known about the bridge steakouts, and um,
that's not going to deter if it, you know, if
he's the one who is guilty of it's not going
to deter that person from dumping them in the water.
(16:37):
That was he believed at the time that it was,
you know, getting rid of evidence. So you know, the
killer has to know. It's just common sense if I'm
dumping bodies and rivers, there's if there is a steak
out there probably looking at rivers and you know where
these bodies are being found. Um. And also they say
he was aware of the steakouts, doesn't mean he knew
exactly which bridges, exactly which times when the bridge steakhouts
were ending, and that that was the actual last night.
(17:00):
So also a lot a lot of variables when it
comes to that take out. Yeah, I was gonna say,
just while we're on the topic of the bridge again
over over and over again, we were out at the
bridge and they have a kind of an extra fence
on top, now one of those kind of curved rails
that prevent people from jumping off into the into the river.
And so we had to use a lift in order
(17:21):
to get Randy over the top and drop him. But
this kind of question of how could how could anyone
Wayne's size pick up a body and throw them in
the river. Well, if you look at the original um
bridge structure and some of the photographs, that structure is
actually not that tall. It's less tall than um than
a height of a normal car, and it is solid concrete.
(17:45):
So the ability again I'm getting a little bit graphic here,
but to pick up a body, even force it against
that concrete structure and push it over. To me, that
doesn't seem very difficult, even if um those bodies were
a lot heavier than the victims who bodies were pushed over. Yeah,
I mean it's absolutely doable. I mean if if you
you try to live Randy. Yeah, if you take the Randy,
(18:06):
it his height and weight compared to Nathaniel Katy, which
is you know, it's been some back and forth about
exact height and weight, but it's it's all very similar
to what we were dealing with. And um, you know,
my height and weight and not much different than way
Williams at that time. And I was able to take
the dummy um from about the middle of the bridge,
drag you know, put my arms underneath the dummies arms
(18:30):
and drag it up the curb over to the bridge
and lifted at least to my chest height and to
be able to put it over what would have been
the barrier At that time. It wasn't a scientific test
being done by us. It was you know, what do
we believe? Like? What did I just hear? Like? The
best way to test this is to do it yourself
(18:50):
and see if there's anything there. We put ears where
the recruit heard this splash, so you, as a listener,
got to hear what it could sound like. It wasn't
altered it. We literally bought these uh microphone ears to emulate, uh,
the way people hear things. And so that's the closest
we could possibly get. Scenario again. Why did they rent
(19:14):
so many cars during that period? I mean the mom
shicked the father. I didn't know you know what I'm
talking about. I wonder why they rented so many stations
wide into whatever? Why by they did rent a lot
of cars, And we asked me about that. According to
Wayne and to Larry Peterson too, who's the fiber analyst um,
(19:38):
the Williams family was having trouble with a newly purchased
LTG during this time period and it was in and
out of the shop. So all of the rental cars
they got were associated with that. I don't I don't
know if it was directly suggested that it was from
the car shop that they were going to that was
giving them these rentals, but it was because they had
a new car that was having trouble. Um, it sounds
(19:59):
convenient that they had all these rental cars, not planned necessarily,
you know, looking at the list by check Donlinger, there
was even he talks about the confusion around the cars
and and what goes where and when, and I had
trouble following it. Frankly, this is something I found that
was interesting to me. Um, not just because of the cars,
but they had pulled over another individual and their car.
(20:24):
It was actually a tag associated with Wayne Williams Um
associated to Metro News Productions on eighteen seventeen Penelope Road,
which is Wayne and his family's address. So they actually
went to visit Wayne in January. It's the first time
he was talked to as part of the investigation, and
(20:47):
well in advance of him being questioned and arrested later
that summer. So whether they knew it or not, they
had are actually already talked to Wayne because of an
association with one of his cars. Well, we talked to Corn,
the FBI agent. He told Meredith and Knight that there
was this list of about three thousand people that the
FBI had created and Wayne Williams was on that list.
(21:10):
So he said that no matter what, eventually they were
going to find Wayne because there was this list of
individuals that fit a profile that they had built in.
Wayne's name was Lomahold on that list. Hi, Payne, my
name is Deel London. I'm calling from Campton, Georgia. Is
it possible that Cheryl Johnson was like a frame by
(21:32):
the g d I or the FBI, Like could they
have called and left the incorrect name and number in
hopes that he would go out and end up on
that bridge so that they could arrest him or Am
I really far fetched in that? I think that's a
little far fetched. I don't believe in these huge elaborate
(21:52):
conspiracies to pin all this on Wayne Williams. What's the
point If it was thought out that much, then they
would have more evidence on Wayne Williams. First of all.
And if that's also the case, why is it Wayne
saying that the FBI with plants and stuff like that.
It just doesn't make any sense. I mean it's they
didn't say, did Sheryl Johnson come to my house right now?
He decided when he wanted to go to her house.
(22:13):
You know, he could have went after the first call,
after the second call, before he went to the club,
or after the club, so he could have win a
completely different direction. Could have been coming from North Atlanta
or from East Atlanta. You never know where he's coming
from when he decides to go to Sheryl Johnson's house.
So yeah, I think it's kind of far fetched. And
I also don't believe in like the larger conspiracy theories
(22:35):
that involve you know, a ton of players that are
out to get Wayne Williams. There's just not enough. There's
not an evidence to support that. And like you said,
paying if they were framing him there will be would
be a much better frame job than this. I think
it's important that Wayne doesn't suggest it was ever that um,
regardless of Sheryl Johnson is real or not, he like
(22:57):
always stays true to that it was a print call
about someone who knew using the music business, and he
always says true to the conspiracy only started after I
was stopped on the bridge, So it doesn't even you know,
matter if CHERRYL. Johnson is real or not. I think
Wayne Williams knows no matter what, that it's a bad alibi. Yeah,
there's there's just no way that it's a setup. If
(23:17):
it was, then they messed up and a body was
tossed over the bridge as a result. Like if if
they were really trying to set him up, they would
have been waiting at the top of the bridge. And
it just seems very far fetched. The two in the
morning thing. If he's a suspect, you knock on history
and take him downtown and you questioned him with all
the stuff you've got on him, you do not do
an elaborate you know, bridge stake out to trap the
(23:40):
killer if you will, and to not see someone dropped
the body off the bridge. If my point was to
catch the killer, then they would have caught the killer
right then and there. But they didn't. And if it's
all made up, I'm gonna makeup a better story. The
guy unto the bridge, You say, oh, I saw Wayne
Williams throw that body over, Like why so you know,
why did it such a shaky story If it's a
set up, If you're luring a killer and You're expecting
(24:01):
them to drop a body off a bridge and and
no one sees it. That just doesn't make any sense.
I mean, how many different versions of that story do
we here? Hi, my name is Meg, and I thought
that I heard earlier in the podcast that some of
the victims had been sodomized, and so I was just
curious there was ever d N a collection that would
have correlated with Wayne Williams, or if there was even
(24:24):
the ability to gather DNA compare it, since that's not
necessarily was on trial for So it's just one piece
that was curious about. I think it's firstly important to
talk about the suggested sexual abuse. Apparently from everyone we
talked to during our own investigation of this, there was
no evidence of sexual abuse. It was serialized that sex
(24:46):
was a motive and it's possible, but we couldn't find
any records of rape kits. No one from the FBI
or the a p D ever suggested that there's any
sexual abuse. So I think firstly that's an important distinction.
We've thought a lot about the DNA connection because that
you know, DNA testing wasn't even a thing. It really
(25:07):
came to late around UM and the suggestion to be
able to kind of go back and see what happens.
I've asked that question. We'll probably play a clip from
Maurice Godwin who came on the show and talked a
little bit about this. Carpet fibers is not direct evidends.
Carpet fibers, you've got to have something else to support
(25:29):
it to make it stronger. DNA is direct evidence. You
don't need anything else to support DNA and fingerprints. Carpet
fibers that was in the vehicle for forty years could
still hold DNA that could produce a profile. The problem
is what type of environment the car had been in.
(25:52):
Heat destroys the DNA. Time destroys the DNA. Now, a
case that I worked in O eight to oh ten
happened in five. It was a woman and her two
children brutally murdered in their house, and I worked for
the defense from O eight oh ten and they used
(26:13):
a vaginal squaff from her from not teen eighty five
that was just kept in an old cardboard box and
they matched it to him in oh six. From back
then you only could use blood. The original blood analysis
they cut and say was he as or not? But
they said the DNA was and so they they recharged
(26:36):
him in No. Six and and court martialed him in
O ten and found him guilty. He's on death row. Now.
Everything that was collected by the FBI and the g
PI and law enforcement for the Willy Williams casse, where
is it. Well, they have the right to destroy the
evidence after the trial. Do you think that they did
in this case. I don't think so. I think it's
(26:58):
in probably aces, is probably into sureff an X, is
probably some boxes down and who knows where in the
police department. It's probably in all kinds of locations. And
I very seriously doubt that they transferred the information and
the evidence and everything when computer technology came along, very
(27:20):
seriously doubt they transferred that to a spreadsheet. So the
problem is you would have to put somebody down there
to physically crawl on the floor and look and everything
to find two things. You might find some things, but
I would not be surprised at all if it's not
into the trash dumb victims clothing with blood. Do you
(27:41):
think they held under that? Well, Um, you've got two
convictions and the rest of them have been um exceptionally cleared,
it's what it's called. Uh, they probably don't. And and
then frankly, you could go deeper and say, um, you know,
DNA evidence matching is not what it used to be.
(28:01):
It was originally you know, positioned as how do we
take the wrongly accused and find something that exonerates them,
and it's turned into how do we get a guilty
play out of someone based on this DNA to also
going even further in saying, um, it's actually swaying some
of the jurors, they've said, because if I see DNA
(28:23):
testing put in front of me, I tend to believe
that that is the truth. And so even d N
a kind of being considered, this, this bullet proof evidence
actually has a lot of biases in here and is
problematic in these days. Um So even if we opened
it up, even if the samples were clean, there's some
problems there. Hi, my name is Kim, and my question
(28:45):
after listening to the POECAST is about the evidence collected.
I'm assuming it's just sitting in an evidence flucker or
in storage or something, and I'm just wondering why they
can't now use modern DNA testing to either clear or
condemn Wayne if there's so many questions about his innocence
or his guilt. A couple of points here. In two
thousand and ten, there was a case update that actually
(29:10):
said in looking at DNA findings between Way Williams and
Patrick Baltazar, it would have actually strengthened the case against
Wayne Williams, not for him. The other thing to consider
in looking at again we talked about these flawed techniques.
Think about it this way. Even if you were to
match some of the DNA from the hairs that was
(29:31):
that was a part of the case, But the fiber
matching was such a stronger case for the state against Wayne,
and he has less of a defense against that. So
I think you answer one question, you end up opening
up a bunch of others. I just I still think
it's problematic. I think the lack of DNA evidence in
this case is what's allowed it to be so confusing
(29:52):
over the years. Usually it's in a murder case in
two thousand eighteen, when there's DNA you can usually rule
someone in or out as to be at the crime
scene or anything like that. That wasn't really done here.
The closest thing we had to it was these blood
samples in the back of one of way William's cars.
And what's interesting is I actually asked way Williams about
(30:13):
those blood samples. It didn't make it into the final episode,
but I want to play that clip for you guys here.
This is his answer. My understanding is what they claimed
to have found in the car were two dry scrapings
of blood that were determined to be human blood. And
these scrapers were supposed to come from the Barrick case
(30:33):
and the John Porter case, and they presented evidence and
trial about supposing enzyme tiste and matching their blood type
or something like that book book. An issue is according
to the Decab County medicalistam and the report in the
case of William Bart he was apparently staffed post mortem
or near at the time of depth or whatever. But
(30:54):
in any case, the medical examiner was embedic and that
there was no external bleeding on him. How can you
have a case where somebody did not bleed externally, but
Jet you said you found a blood scraper from that
person that done that? I remember the thing or John Porter.
He was originally not even included on the task for Smiths.
(31:14):
He was hold on to give the notes here okay,
he was found in the open and a makeup lot
and for multiple staff wounds, and this probably was a
street crime, so it was it was just an attempt
to link two cases in a pattern that basically never existed.
When we were partitioning the court for DNA testing back
(31:37):
into two thousand and nine, one of the issues we
raised was to have those blood sapples tested at the
State Crime Lab. And my attorney's team go to the
State Crime Lab to to get the two slides samples
of the scrapements to send off to the lab. They
have a tested, but when they went back the next
day to oversee the package that the packing of the
(31:58):
blood slides sapples, the samples were lost. Not only were
they lost, but they also lost the caust seat that
they claimed that these samples came from. My point is this,
You've got the samples the day before, but yet all
of a sudden overnight you lose them. When you find out,
you know, in the process of doing DNA tested, you
know that raises a real flag with anybody. I have
(32:20):
a somewhat related question that I've never been able to
get my um head around, and that's the lack of
fingerprint evidence that came up a couple of times, especially
with Wayne. I don't know the answer to that either.
Do you guys have any thoughts there. It's certainly odd
that there's no fingerprints of any of the victims inside
way William's home, if that's where they're theorizing that he
(32:42):
killed some of these kids. Um, I don't know if
that's because they didn't dust the entire place. I do
know that when Larry Peterson told us about the night
that he went to the house to get the carpet samples,
he told us exactly what he was looking for. He
was not looking for fingerprints. He was looking for a
match on the carpet it. So he saw the green carpet,
took the sample, he saw the purple material, took that sample.
(33:05):
He knew what he was looking for. He came back
that night and it was a match. So I don't
know if the focus was just not on fingerprints or
what it was, but there weren't any. So I think
one thing to consider is Wayne Williams had a leg
up on anyone coming to search his atmosphere. In fact,
(33:25):
like people have said, there's that one strange story of
like Homer in the backyard, burning things, bringing boxes out
to the trash. I don't know how good fingerprint evidence
is or was then, but it sounds like there was
some time to cover some tracks, if there were tracks
to be covered. Yeah, even if you weren't covering your
tracks as you were, you know, committing these murders, you
(33:47):
had time when once you left that bridge, you knew
that you were a suspect, and you had time to
then cover your tracks. And also, you know, we don't
know where else to look for fingerprints because there is
no like where to seem the crime. You don't know
where these kids exactly where only disappeared. All we know
is that you know, they have evidence from the house,
evidence from the cars, and those are two places that
(34:07):
he was able to clean up after himself. They I
didn't come into way William's house and view a crime scene.
They just viewed a normal looking house. There was no
body on the ground, there was nothing to there was
nothing to definitively test for fingerprints. Sure, in theory you
could fingerprint the whole house, but I'd assume that they
(34:27):
just did not do that. Remember, half the media was
in his house the that when it got back from
being downtown. Yeah, it's pretty loosey goosey. There was people
in and out. It was all over the place at
that time. Thanks for listening to part one of our
Q and A session. Um. If you have any questions
of your own, please call us at one eight three
(34:48):
three eight five six six six seven again that's one, three,
three five six six six seven and tune in next
week for port two. The blow below lay below b
In Atlanta. Another body was coming today at police Task
Dors headquarters. There are twenty seven faces on the wall, murdered,
one missing. We do not know the person or persons
that are responsible. Therefore, we do not have the mode
from Tenderfoot TV and How Stuff Works in Atlanta. Like
eleven other recent victims in Atlanta, Rogers apparently was as
fixy victor Atlanta. It was unlikely to catch the killer
(00:31):
unless he keeps on killing. This is Atlanta Monster. Hey, guys,
thanks for tuning into our first Q and A episode.
I'm Payne Lindsay. I'm here with the Tenderfoot team and
the House Stuff Works team. Hey, it's Jason here with
(00:51):
How Stuff Works Merit from Tenderfoot, and this is Donald
from Tenderfoot. And today we're gonna be going through some
of the voicemail questions. To start this off, we received
an overwhelming amount of listener voicemails ranging from all types
of questions, and today we've picked some of the best
ones and we'll be going through them individually and giving
the best answers we can. Hi, my name is Jimal Anthony.
(01:13):
Why this story? What made you guys? Decided this was
the story to tell it's a very unique story, but
it's very um complex and it seems to be ever changing,
you know, so many moving parts to it. So what
made you guys decide to pick the Atlanta child murders.
(01:34):
That's a good question. Um really, Donald all right, my
business partner here at tender Foot TV, he brought this
story to me. At first, I'd never heard of the
Atlantia Old murders. Donald, what inspired you to bring this
up in the first place? Initially, I know we wanted
to do something different, Um first podcast up and vantashed.
You know, we're planning on doing a season two of it,
but I know we wanted to do something other than
(01:55):
a missing person's case. And um, just thinking back on
my childhood, the Atlanta childmars was something I remember growing up. Um,
it affected me, and I think some of our other
listeners that are either forty and up and from the
black community especially remember hearing about this. And I was
away in California, UM, but it still affected me. You know,
I heard about it from my parents, from my uncle's
(02:16):
and it was something that just I felt like I
needed to ask you if if you had ever heard
of it before? And when I did, and you hadn't
you hadn't heard of it. I was like, how many
other people out there, you know, just don't know about
this tragic story. So I figured, look, if we can
bring this story, uh some more attention, maybe some justice
or some at least at the very least some awareness
and the closure for those families, then I think I'd
(02:38):
be worth this. You and shot yeah. And I did
some initial research after you told me about it to
see if this would be a good podcast, and I
realized very quickly how important this story was um to
the nation, especially just the city of Atlanta. Um all
the racial bifurcations in the story, the way it's sort
of shaped this city, and kind of it's had this
sort of dark cloud over Atlanta for a long time,
(03:00):
and it's something that was sort of swept under the rug.
And the more you dig into it, the more you
learn that just isn't readily available out there, right, And
I think also, I mean I learned a lot, you know,
I thought I knew about this case, and I think
a lot of people think that they know about this
case until you actually do the research listen to the podcast,
so you know the things that I thought, you know,
some of those, um were rumors, and and you know
(03:21):
those were dispelled by doing the research. So I got
a lot from it. But I think the interesting thing
also is that, you know, we sat down with Jason
from How Stuff Works, Uh, and you also, Jason had
had this idea to do this podcast, so it kind
of seemed like a perfect match and that's why we
ended up doing it together. So yeah, But when I
met you, Jason, I had just talked to Donald about
(03:41):
the Atlanta child murders case, and we met for the
first time in your office, and you brought up the
Atlanta child murders and I said, I'm not kidding my
business partner, Donald just mentioned this to me, and I
was gonna write there in between you guys, what was
your take on doing this as a podcast? You know,
for me, I was what nine or ten years old
at the time, and that image of the case, even
living far away in Wisconsin, was burned in my brain.
(04:02):
And I think what Donald said is right where, um,
something's actually surprised us here. So um the reactions from
folks who lived during that time and remembered it but
actually didn't quite remember everything. These things tend to be
urban legends the longer they get drawn out, and the
stories tend to change over time, and um, you know,
(04:22):
even if you listen to the podcast, you'll be like,
it sounds like even folks at the FBI don't quite
remember everything thirty or forty years later, and so there's
a certain mythology that that builds over time. Uh. The
second thing that, um, I think most shocked me, and
I think pain you probably feel this way too, is
how many people had no idea that this was actually
(04:43):
a story that happened, that this many African American children
were missing in murdered, and that this happened in a
major metropolitan city like Atlanta. The other why is that
it's been forty years, and part of this is what's
the same and what's different about this country in this
city actually, And we're talking about race, we're talking about economics,
(05:06):
we're talking about politics, we're talking about police and justice,
and it's pretty stunning to see certainly some things have changed,
but a lot fuels the same after forty years. Yeah.
I think I've said this before, UM, speaking about the podcast,
is that you know, there's a difference between progress and change,
and a lot has changed, but we haven't progressed as
(05:28):
much as a nation as we'd like to think. And
I think that's one lesson I want to take away
you can have from listening to this podcast. To add
to that the why now it's been forty years, Like
you're saying, a lot of these players in this case
are getting really old now, whether some of them are
not even around. So I mean, in ten years, I
don't think you could do this podcast, if you know.
(05:49):
And just kind of brings up another side note, which
is what was our goal on the podcast. So it
was an investigation and we wanted to get to the
root of the stories. But at think we discussed early on, um,
we wanted people to make up their own minds and
and here everything, even the wild crazy stuff, and make
(06:10):
up their own minds and then looking themselves and be like,
why did I think that way? What's causing me to
think that way? Is it based on things I've held
onto for years? Or is it because I really feel
compelled one way or another that the evidence is swaying me. Yeah,
I promise as a listener, whatever you were feeling, I
was feeling the exact same thing at some point. This
is so confusing, This is puzzling, Why why is this
(06:32):
like this? Do I believe this? Do I not believe this?
Those are things that people have thought for almost forty
years now. It's nothing new in this case. Everyone associated
with this has kind of a different perspective um based
on age, based on race, and like Pain being thirty,
you know, you weren't even born when this happened. You know,
Meredith's on our team even younger. Jason and I were
(06:52):
young and you heard about this growing up. But just
you too, you know, Meredith and Pain, you guys are
the generation of pot cast listeners that you know, really
don't know about the story. So just hearing about it
and learning about it in the way that you did,
you can probably relate a little bit more to the
listener um that's hearing about it firsthand from the podcast. Right.
So I didn't grow up with the story obviously like
(07:14):
either of you did. But I think it's interesting in
my perspective to still see um parallels between this story
now and what's happening today in and social issues we're
facing now, and how like you're suggesting, Donald, there might
not have been as much progress as we like to
(07:36):
think that we have, and these issues that are there,
some of them are still here in two thousand eighteen,
and I think that it's interesting to see that from
my perspective and coming across the story brand new right now. Hey, paying,
this is Wendy from North Atlanta. So my question is,
so the bridge that supposedly Wayne Williams through the body
(08:00):
off of I was wondering why it took so long
for them to recover that body. Don't bodies float when
they're first thrown in the water and then they sink later. Therefore,
they would be able to recover that body that night,
as opposed to waiting three days and then not being
able to connect it to Wayne Williams throwing the body in.
(08:22):
That's a good question. I am, by no means an
expert on uh the human body in that sense, but
from what I know, a dead body does not flow
up until the gases inside from the decomposition make it
rise to the surface. So let's assume that it was
Nathan Okator's body that was tossed off the bridge, and
(08:43):
he had died just a few hours earlier. Within that timeframe,
he likely would sink and then rise to the top later,
the FBI told us and Also, it's in the FBI
reports all the documents that they did go search for
a body that night with boats and with helicopters and
all kind of stuff, but they found nothing. So Yeah,
(09:05):
and that's not I've been fishing on the Chattahoochee many
times and it's it's very cold, very cold water, and
it's a little bit tricky to navigate. It's not the
widest river in the world. There's lots of overhanging trees,
and if you were to do that at night, it's
not the easiest thing to kind of find a clear
(09:26):
pathway and just a body be there. Um. And so
I just knowing that environment, I know it is a
little bit tricky, and I'm sort of not surprised it
took him maybe an extra day or two to to
find the body. Yeah. I think another thing is the current.
It's been suggested to us that the current was really strong.
It's also been suggested to us that the current was
relatively calm. So depending on who we talked to, we
(09:48):
get mixed information. We got mixed information about that, and
I think, um, regardless, there was a lot of time
between when they heard a splash Wayne was pulled over.
They talked to Wayne the assembled people to go out
and start investigating the splash. That was in the early
early morning hours of that night and or of that day.
(10:10):
And I think it probably took a long time before
anything was set in motion, so that could account for
some you know, missing time, or where Nathaniel Kator's body,
if it was indeed dumped that night, where it would
have been in relation to actually first hearing the splash.
But the focus was on Wayne almost immediately you have
this the splash, this uh suspicious character on the bridge.
(10:33):
It's late at night, so all the police officers the
FBI are there focused on Way Williams. They're also trying
to look for a body that one recruit claimed he
heard hit the water. So it's late, it's dark, and
I think that um even Macomis made a comment to
us offhand, the FBI agent that they didn't even launch
(10:57):
a full investigation that night in the water because the
current was strong and it was not safe to do. Yeah,
and if you think about it, they didn't even really
know for sure what they're looking for. They didn't know
Nathaniel Kator was missing at this point. It wasn't that
they were looking for someone in particular, They just here's
a kind of fishy situation, let's look into it. So
I think that definitely is a good point to bring up.
(11:18):
That mcomis they didn't know what they're looking for. They
didn't even launch an official investigation yet. I think FBI
also mentioned that the recruit under the bridge could have
been as much as fifty yards away from uh where,
directly where the body may have hit the water. So
if he's you know, under the bridge, fifty yards away
and that he hears a splash, he still used to
(11:41):
you know, walk over there and then shine his light
on the water. And by that time, I mean, even
the body has hit the water and initially come up
before it sinks again and the current takes it away.
I mean you're looking at at least a couple of
minutes of someone walking and then looking around. The body
can definitely have disappeared by that time. So you know,
there's a lot of variables. I think, um, there's no
(12:03):
definitive answer to really, they should have found it as
soon as it hit the water or three days later. Hi,
my name is Julian. I just finished listening to your podcast.
So if Wayne used to drive around the blue car
with like the police scanner, pretend to be a police
officer or be the reporter and get all the information
on the cops. How did he not know that the
cops were at the stakeout and then like, you know,
(12:24):
not and then the boy being caught regardless, It just
there's just seems to be I'm just kind of confused
about that. Well, according to Wayne Williams himself, he did
know about this. He told me it was an episode
ten in one of my last phone calls with him,
that he knew about the bridge steakouts. Was he telling
the truth? I don't know, But according to Wayne in
(12:45):
two thousand eighteen, he did know about the bridge steakouts,
and he did have a car that was like a
police car with a police scanner, so he had the
know how and the ability to hear a police scanner
and possibly find out about bridge steakouts. I don't know
if that helps or hurts his story, but that's what
he told me. That's the only time I've ever heard
(13:05):
him say of that. Do you think he was like
that that was just another turn in the story at
the end, because I don't think he even had the
police scanner in the white station wagon. I think it
was in some of the other vehicles. I just I
have a tough time believing that he knew, and if
he knew, why would he do it? Anyway? I think
Wayne tends to say things and shape things as he's
(13:27):
talking to people, UM, and he shapes the stories in
a way that fits whoever he's talking to and whatever
he's trying to get across. UM. I think in that moment,
he felt compelled to tell me that, you know, all
this is ridiculous because he knew about these steakouts when
you know. I don't know why he didn't say that
(13:49):
in his trial. I think it's a good point that
he didn't necessarily have the police scanner with him in
that car. I'm not sure if that was something. He
moved around to different cars, and he moved drowned plenty
of cars, as we know, But he did know enough
about what was going on. This is me talking assuming
that Wayne did this, But he did know enough about
(14:09):
what was going on to change the place of dumping
to the rivers. So I don't think it was out
of the question to think that he knew they would
be looking at rivers by this point. It wasn't like
this was the first body that was that had shown
up in a river. Yeah. Bottom line is kids were
turning up dead in the Chattahoochee River. That was in
(14:31):
the Atlanternal Constitution, that was in articles, it was in
the news. That was a known fact in Atlanta at
that time. And then mainly adults at the end showing
up further and further outside the Atlanta city boundaries in rivers. Again,
as Um Popcorn says, because he heard the fibers were important,
so he was stripping the clothes off of them. Um,
(14:52):
I'm actually really surprised that the law enforcement was able
to keep their steak outs a secret from the media.
I don't know if there was an agreement with the
media to keep it quiet, but for all the stuff
that happened to be able to essentially cover every one
of these bridges out in the country for thirty days
and no one knows about it, I'm still surprised that
(15:12):
that didn't get out. I thought it was suggested to
us once that maybe people didn't know exactly what was
going on and where, but that they knew that police
were steaking out new locations. Even Captain Dave Captain Dave
said off hand in our interview that he recalls on
the police skinner they were using code words. I don't
(15:33):
remember what the word was, but it was something. It
was some street name that he had never heard of
in Atlanta. He said, where is this street? Where is
this turns out it was a code word for the
bridge steak out and he found this out during that
time period. So way Williams having the same access that
this guy has, And you know, it's plausible that Wayne
(15:54):
would know about the bridge steak out. The question is
then if he did, like Wayne saying, if he did
know about the bridge steake out, then why does he
go into the bridge at three in the morning. Yeah,
it's it's surprising, but it is conceivable. And I think
it's important that to remember that when he was pulled over,
at least to us, he suggested that when um, he
was questioned, he said, is this about the kids? Even
(16:16):
if he's claiming his innocence, he knew that he was
being pulled over in association with you know, the kids
being missing and turned up murdered. So also, I think
he could have known about the bridge steakouts, and um,
that's not going to deter if it, you know, if
he's the one who is guilty of it's not going
to deter that person from dumping them in the water.
(16:37):
That was he believed at the time that it was,
you know, getting rid of evidence. So you know, the
killer has to know. It's just common sense if I'm
dumping bodies and rivers, there's if there is a steak
out there probably looking at rivers and you know where
these bodies are being found. Um. And also they say
he was aware of the steakouts, doesn't mean he knew
exactly which bridges, exactly which times when the bridge steakhouts
were ending, and that that was the actual last night.
(17:00):
So also a lot a lot of variables when it
comes to that take out. Yeah, I was gonna say,
just while we're on the topic of the bridge again
over over and over again, we were out at the
bridge and they have a kind of an extra fence
on top, now one of those kind of curved rails
that prevent people from jumping off into the into the river.
And so we had to use a lift in order
(17:21):
to get Randy over the top and drop him. But
this kind of question of how could how could anyone
Wayne's size pick up a body and throw them in
the river. Well, if you look at the original um
bridge structure and some of the photographs, that structure is
actually not that tall. It's less tall than um than
a height of a normal car, and it is solid concrete.
(17:45):
So the ability again I'm getting a little bit graphic here,
but to pick up a body, even force it against
that concrete structure and push it over. To me, that
doesn't seem very difficult, even if um those bodies were
a lot heavier than the victims who bodies were pushed over. Yeah,
I mean it's absolutely doable. I mean if if you
you try to live Randy. Yeah, if you take the Randy,
(18:06):
it his height and weight compared to Nathaniel Katy, which
is you know, it's been some back and forth about
exact height and weight, but it's it's all very similar
to what we were dealing with. And um, you know,
my height and weight and not much different than way
Williams at that time. And I was able to take
the dummy um from about the middle of the bridge,
drag you know, put my arms underneath the dummies arms
(18:30):
and drag it up the curb over to the bridge
and lifted at least to my chest height and to
be able to put it over what would have been
the barrier At that time. It wasn't a scientific test
being done by us. It was you know, what do
we believe? Like? What did I just hear? Like? The
best way to test this is to do it yourself
(18:50):
and see if there's anything there. We put ears where
the recruit heard this splash, so you, as a listener,
got to hear what it could sound like. It wasn't
altered it. We literally bought these uh microphone ears to emulate, uh,
the way people hear things. And so that's the closest
we could possibly get. Scenario again. Why did they rent
(19:14):
so many cars during that period? I mean the mom
shicked the father. I didn't know you know what I'm
talking about. I wonder why they rented so many stations
wide into whatever? Why by they did rent a lot
of cars, And we asked me about that. According to
Wayne and to Larry Peterson too, who's the fiber analyst um,
(19:38):
the Williams family was having trouble with a newly purchased
LTG during this time period and it was in and
out of the shop. So all of the rental cars
they got were associated with that. I don't I don't
know if it was directly suggested that it was from
the car shop that they were going to that was
giving them these rentals, but it was because they had
a new car that was having trouble. Um, it sounds
(19:59):
convenient that they had all these rental cars, not planned necessarily,
you know, looking at the list by check Donlinger, there
was even he talks about the confusion around the cars
and and what goes where and when, and I had
trouble following it. Frankly, this is something I found that
was interesting to me. Um, not just because of the cars,
but they had pulled over another individual and their car.
(20:24):
It was actually a tag associated with Wayne Williams Um
associated to Metro News Productions on eighteen seventeen Penelope Road,
which is Wayne and his family's address. So they actually
went to visit Wayne in January. It's the first time
he was talked to as part of the investigation, and
(20:47):
well in advance of him being questioned and arrested later
that summer. So whether they knew it or not, they
had are actually already talked to Wayne because of an
association with one of his cars. Well, we talked to Corn,
the FBI agent. He told Meredith and Knight that there
was this list of about three thousand people that the
FBI had created and Wayne Williams was on that list.
(21:10):
So he said that no matter what, eventually they were
going to find Wayne because there was this list of
individuals that fit a profile that they had built in.
Wayne's name was Lomahold on that list. Hi, Payne, my
name is Deel London. I'm calling from Campton, Georgia. Is
it possible that Cheryl Johnson was like a frame by
(21:32):
the g d I or the FBI, Like could they
have called and left the incorrect name and number in
hopes that he would go out and end up on
that bridge so that they could arrest him or Am
I really far fetched in that? I think that's a
little far fetched. I don't believe in these huge elaborate
(21:52):
conspiracies to pin all this on Wayne Williams. What's the
point If it was thought out that much, then they
would have more evidence on Wayne Williams. First of all.
And if that's also the case, why is it Wayne
saying that the FBI with plants and stuff like that.
It just doesn't make any sense. I mean it's they
didn't say, did Sheryl Johnson come to my house right now?
He decided when he wanted to go to her house.
(22:13):
You know, he could have went after the first call,
after the second call, before he went to the club,
or after the club, so he could have win a
completely different direction. Could have been coming from North Atlanta
or from East Atlanta. You never know where he's coming
from when he decides to go to Sheryl Johnson's house.
So yeah, I think it's kind of far fetched. And
I also don't believe in like the larger conspiracy theories
(22:35):
that involve you know, a ton of players that are
out to get Wayne Williams. There's just not enough. There's
not an evidence to support that. And like you said,
paying if they were framing him there will be would
be a much better frame job than this. I think
it's important that Wayne doesn't suggest it was ever that um,
regardless of Sheryl Johnson is real or not, he like
(22:57):
always stays true to that it was a print call
about someone who knew using the music business, and he
always says true to the conspiracy only started after I
was stopped on the bridge, So it doesn't even you know,
matter if CHERRYL. Johnson is real or not. I think
Wayne Williams knows no matter what, that it's a bad alibi. Yeah,
there's there's just no way that it's a setup. If
(23:17):
it was, then they messed up and a body was
tossed over the bridge as a result. Like if if
they were really trying to set him up, they would
have been waiting at the top of the bridge. And
it just seems very far fetched. The two in the
morning thing. If he's a suspect, you knock on history
and take him downtown and you questioned him with all
the stuff you've got on him, you do not do
an elaborate you know, bridge stake out to trap the
(23:40):
killer if you will, and to not see someone dropped
the body off the bridge. If my point was to
catch the killer, then they would have caught the killer
right then and there. But they didn't. And if it's
all made up, I'm gonna makeup a better story. The
guy unto the bridge, You say, oh, I saw Wayne
Williams throw that body over, Like why so you know,
why did it such a shaky story If it's a
set up, If you're luring a killer and You're expecting
(24:01):
them to drop a body off a bridge and and
no one sees it. That just doesn't make any sense.
I mean, how many different versions of that story do
we here? Hi, my name is Meg, and I thought
that I heard earlier in the podcast that some of
the victims had been sodomized, and so I was just
curious there was ever d N a collection that would
have correlated with Wayne Williams, or if there was even
(24:24):
the ability to gather DNA compare it, since that's not
necessarily was on trial for So it's just one piece
that was curious about. I think it's firstly important to
talk about the suggested sexual abuse. Apparently from everyone we
talked to during our own investigation of this, there was
no evidence of sexual abuse. It was serialized that sex
(24:46):
was a motive and it's possible, but we couldn't find
any records of rape kits. No one from the FBI
or the a p D ever suggested that there's any
sexual abuse. So I think firstly that's an important distinction.
We've thought a lot about the DNA connection because that
you know, DNA testing wasn't even a thing. It really
(25:07):
came to late around UM and the suggestion to be
able to kind of go back and see what happens.
I've asked that question. We'll probably play a clip from
Maurice Godwin who came on the show and talked a
little bit about this. Carpet fibers is not direct evidends.
Carpet fibers, you've got to have something else to support
(25:29):
it to make it stronger. DNA is direct evidence. You
don't need anything else to support DNA and fingerprints. Carpet
fibers that was in the vehicle for forty years could
still hold DNA that could produce a profile. The problem
is what type of environment the car had been in.
(25:52):
Heat destroys the DNA. Time destroys the DNA. Now, a
case that I worked in O eight to oh ten
happened in five. It was a woman and her two
children brutally murdered in their house, and I worked for
the defense from O eight oh ten and they used
(26:13):
a vaginal squaff from her from not teen eighty five
that was just kept in an old cardboard box and
they matched it to him in oh six. From back
then you only could use blood. The original blood analysis
they cut and say was he as or not? But
they said the DNA was and so they they recharged
(26:36):
him in No. Six and and court martialed him in
O ten and found him guilty. He's on death row. Now.
Everything that was collected by the FBI and the g
PI and law enforcement for the Willy Williams casse, where
is it. Well, they have the right to destroy the
evidence after the trial. Do you think that they did
in this case. I don't think so. I think it's
(26:58):
in probably aces, is probably into sureff an X, is
probably some boxes down and who knows where in the
police department. It's probably in all kinds of locations. And
I very seriously doubt that they transferred the information and
the evidence and everything when computer technology came along, very
(27:20):
seriously doubt they transferred that to a spreadsheet. So the
problem is you would have to put somebody down there
to physically crawl on the floor and look and everything
to find two things. You might find some things, but
I would not be surprised at all if it's not
into the trash dumb victims clothing with blood. Do you
(27:41):
think they held under that? Well, Um, you've got two
convictions and the rest of them have been um exceptionally cleared,
it's what it's called. Uh, they probably don't. And and
then frankly, you could go deeper and say, um, you know,
DNA evidence matching is not what it used to be.
(28:01):
It was originally you know, positioned as how do we
take the wrongly accused and find something that exonerates them,
and it's turned into how do we get a guilty
play out of someone based on this DNA to also
going even further in saying, um, it's actually swaying some
of the jurors, they've said, because if I see DNA
(28:23):
testing put in front of me, I tend to believe
that that is the truth. And so even d N
a kind of being considered, this, this bullet proof evidence
actually has a lot of biases in here and is
problematic in these days. Um So even if we opened
it up, even if the samples were clean, there's some
problems there. Hi, my name is Kim, and my question
(28:45):
after listening to the POECAST is about the evidence collected.
I'm assuming it's just sitting in an evidence flucker or
in storage or something, and I'm just wondering why they
can't now use modern DNA testing to either clear or
condemn Wayne if there's so many questions about his innocence
or his guilt. A couple of points here. In two
thousand and ten, there was a case update that actually
(29:10):
said in looking at DNA findings between Way Williams and
Patrick Baltazar, it would have actually strengthened the case against
Wayne Williams, not for him. The other thing to consider
in looking at again we talked about these flawed techniques.
Think about it this way. Even if you were to
match some of the DNA from the hairs that was
(29:31):
that was a part of the case, But the fiber
matching was such a stronger case for the state against Wayne,
and he has less of a defense against that. So
I think you answer one question, you end up opening
up a bunch of others. I just I still think
it's problematic. I think the lack of DNA evidence in
this case is what's allowed it to be so confusing
(29:52):
over the years. Usually it's in a murder case in
two thousand eighteen, when there's DNA you can usually rule
someone in or out as to be at the crime
scene or anything like that. That wasn't really done here.
The closest thing we had to it was these blood
samples in the back of one of way William's cars.
And what's interesting is I actually asked way Williams about
(30:13):
those blood samples. It didn't make it into the final episode,
but I want to play that clip for you guys here.
This is his answer. My understanding is what they claimed
to have found in the car were two dry scrapings
of blood that were determined to be human blood. And
these scrapers were supposed to come from the Barrick case
(30:33):
and the John Porter case, and they presented evidence and
trial about supposing enzyme tiste and matching their blood type
or something like that book book. An issue is according
to the Decab County medicalistam and the report in the
case of William Bart he was apparently staffed post mortem
or near at the time of depth or whatever. But
(30:54):
in any case, the medical examiner was embedic and that
there was no external bleeding on him. How can you
have a case where somebody did not bleed externally, but
Jet you said you found a blood scraper from that
person that done that? I remember the thing or John Porter.
He was originally not even included on the task for Smiths.
(31:14):
He was hold on to give the notes here okay,
he was found in the open and a makeup lot
and for multiple staff wounds, and this probably was a
street crime, so it was it was just an attempt
to link two cases in a pattern that basically never existed.
When we were partitioning the court for DNA testing back
(31:37):
into two thousand and nine, one of the issues we
raised was to have those blood sapples tested at the
State Crime Lab. And my attorney's team go to the
State Crime Lab to to get the two slides samples
of the scrapements to send off to the lab. They
have a tested, but when they went back the next
day to oversee the package that the packing of the
(31:58):
blood slides sapples, the samples were lost. Not only were
they lost, but they also lost the caust seat that
they claimed that these samples came from. My point is this,
You've got the samples the day before, but yet all
of a sudden overnight you lose them. When you find out,
you know, in the process of doing DNA tested, you
know that raises a real flag with anybody. I have
(32:20):
a somewhat related question that I've never been able to
get my um head around, and that's the lack of
fingerprint evidence that came up a couple of times, especially
with Wayne. I don't know the answer to that either.
Do you guys have any thoughts there. It's certainly odd
that there's no fingerprints of any of the victims inside
way William's home, if that's where they're theorizing that he
(32:42):
killed some of these kids. Um, I don't know if
that's because they didn't dust the entire place. I do
know that when Larry Peterson told us about the night
that he went to the house to get the carpet samples,
he told us exactly what he was looking for. He
was not looking for fingerprints. He was looking for a
match on the carpet it. So he saw the green carpet,
took the sample, he saw the purple material, took that sample.
(33:05):
He knew what he was looking for. He came back
that night and it was a match. So I don't
know if the focus was just not on fingerprints or
what it was, but there weren't any. So I think
one thing to consider is Wayne Williams had a leg
up on anyone coming to search his atmosphere. In fact,
(33:25):
like people have said, there's that one strange story of
like Homer in the backyard, burning things, bringing boxes out
to the trash. I don't know how good fingerprint evidence
is or was then, but it sounds like there was
some time to cover some tracks, if there were tracks
to be covered. Yeah, even if you weren't covering your
tracks as you were, you know, committing these murders, you
(33:47):
had time when once you left that bridge, you knew
that you were a suspect, and you had time to
then cover your tracks. And also, you know, we don't
know where else to look for fingerprints because there is
no like where to seem the crime. You don't know
where these kids exactly where only disappeared. All we know
is that you know, they have evidence from the house,
evidence from the cars, and those are two places that
(34:07):
he was able to clean up after himself. They I
didn't come into way William's house and view a crime scene.
They just viewed a normal looking house. There was no
body on the ground, there was nothing to there was
nothing to definitively test for fingerprints. Sure, in theory you
could fingerprint the whole house, but I'd assume that they
(34:27):
just did not do that. Remember, half the media was
in his house the that when it got back from
being downtown. Yeah, it's pretty loosey goosey. There was people
in and out. It was all over the place at
that time. Thanks for listening to part one of our
Q and A session. Um. If you have any questions
of your own, please call us at one eight three
(34:48):
three eight five six six six seven again that's one, three,
three five six six six seven and tune in next
week for port two. The blow below lay below b
Atlanta Monster News
Host
Payne Lindsey
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