February 2, 2018 • 51 mins
Payne makes contact with the alleged Atlanta Monster.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:08):
Hello, You are receiving a call from Whitewaya You an
inmate at a correctional facility. Press one to consent to
the delivery of a pre recorded message with information on
how you can arrange to receive calls from your incarcerated
loved one. Your cell phone location may be collected and
(00:30):
possibly used for investigative purposes. You are now being transferred
to securest Customer Care.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
Thank you for colleague. Secured Technologies, the leading provider of
inmate telephone services. You are receiving a call from an
inmate and a correctional facility where we provide telephone service.
Please spell out the letters of your first.
Speaker 3 (00:56):
Name Payne okay, so is your first name name?
Speaker 2 (01:21):
Please spell out the letters of your last name. Okay,
so is your last name? Glimsing Yes. To access your account,
you need to create a four digit security passcode. Thank you.
You have successfully created a passcode. Please enter your five
digit zip code. Thank you. One moment. Please to continue,
(01:47):
press one. Your confirmation number is to.
Speaker 4 (01:51):
Zero one name zero one one second one five four
two zero seven one four nine five seven five nine Wow.
Speaker 2 (02:04):
If you would like me to repeat that, press nine no.
Your Advanced Connect account has been successfully opened. You can
start receiving calls within an hour.
Speaker 5 (02:17):
Goodbye, This conference is being recorded.
Speaker 6 (02:41):
Everybody. Yeah, can you hear Wayne?
Speaker 7 (02:45):
Oh yeah, dang, can you hear Wayne?
Speaker 8 (02:48):
I can? Can you hear me?
Speaker 9 (02:50):
Okay?
Speaker 5 (02:51):
Okay?
Speaker 8 (02:52):
Is this pain is your Yeah?
Speaker 3 (02:55):
This is pain. That's my first name. We've got Payne,
Wayne and Dwayne.
Speaker 6 (03:00):
To tell it. My way to me is not really
was important because my way is the right way, and
it's the truth about what happened. You know, were to me?
You know, let the butt fall where it may, you know, wherever,
because there's only one true truth is truth, you know,
And and all this I guess fake as we say
as we hear all this stuff. You know, I'm not
(03:21):
into that either. And the truth in this case is
really simple. It's not complex or anything, but it's just
it's the truth that people may not want to hear,
and it's the truth that they have to hear to
understand what happened. And it continues to happen. Now, let
me give you just a little so and by the way,
if time goes, we have to come up and call
it because I'll explain to you as we go to
(03:41):
mechanics and how we got to communicate it all because
it's kind of weird here, you know, so, so basically
what we're what we were looking for from a documentary
point of view, there's a multi cart thing to tell
the story. You can't tell it in sixty minutes, like
you not both know it's not important. In other words,
people don't need to hear and see what that's not
what's important. These other people have a story to tell.
They're gonna tell my story for me. That's what I'm saying.
(04:03):
You understand what I'm getting that you're gonna you will
fully understand once we get into this. Because one thing
about prison, you can't fool these guys a year. If
these people thought I killed somebody had done something like that,
I'd have been dead the first day I get the
county jail. Are you understanding me? I'm in a close
security prison and a dog with eighty other inmates. Shank's
now all that floating around. You got crips, bloods, geed,
(04:27):
all kinds of games here, and I got down good
relations with all of them. If they thought that, I
wouldn't be you know, you understanding what I'm saying. This
is the reality that you're gonna get to telling his story.
Speaker 4 (04:37):
Man.
Speaker 6 (04:37):
You know you can't fool con If they can smell it,
they can smell a w rec if there's a wreck.
You know, it's almost like a dog. You know, a
dog knows an evil person for the good. They'll start growling,
you know, so so you know it'll come out. This
isn't about Wayne, This isn't just about me. This is
for all those families who never got justice of all
(04:57):
these years. They deserve some answers because I'm in a
prison now with two family members. I'm here with the
uncle and a cousin of two of the murder victors.
We play ball every day together. If you understand what
I'm saying, we need to tell this to I'll see
that hurt and pain they've shared. We have shared things.
There's a bond right there that needs to be told.
Family members. We're in contact will They have given us
(05:20):
information and at least eight of the cases they know
who killed the people, but the police refused to act on.
These are the things that we need to bring out
in these documentaries.
Speaker 3 (05:30):
I've heard from the FBI, the APD, and victims' families.
Now it's time to hear from Wayne. I asked Wayne
what he wanted to say, What did he personally want
to put out to the world.
Speaker 6 (05:41):
My thing is put the facts out and and speak
for yourself. We don't need to doctor it up. Just
just put it out there. And when we explain, like
things like the bridge so called bridge incident, what did
and did not happen, Like Dwayne and I have talked to,
it'll make sense now once we can go through you
hear it all. You an't going to believe it. It's incredible.
Also in the podcast. In other words, there's another component
(06:04):
on this. I have been doing a lot of work
with the younger generation, in particular the music Committee community
to getting them involved. Okay, one of which, by the way,
is my Salemate. He's a twenty one year old kid
who grew up in everything. He's a writer, not only
a rap star, but he's very intelligent. He actually wrote
that the name of my life story is called Shadow Drinks.
(06:26):
He actually wrote the theme song for that, and I
want to include in the podcast through doing some of
his writings and all comments on the social comments thereity.
You know, that's another way of telling it reaching the
younger audience. So with you and the reason why. This
is somebody and you may find this incredible, but this
is somebody who lives with me twenty four hours a day,
seven days a week. We're on the same referee. He
(06:48):
knows me probably better than my own family at this point.
And if you want to know what Oney Williams is
really right, Anthonyspense is the person you ask you understand
what I'm saying. And the other part I'm asking you
to do, like I said, is on a young man
I want to launch as recording artist, Anthony Spencer. Let
me first give you thank.
Speaker 10 (07:05):
You, producing securists.
Speaker 5 (07:07):
Goodbye this old time.
Speaker 6 (07:08):
He gonna call back in like thirty seconds.
Speaker 8 (07:24):
I was pretty surprised. Did Wayne have an artist?
Speaker 3 (07:27):
He was trying to manage from prison, another young black
male like Jimmy.
Speaker 8 (07:31):
But this time the artist wasn't sell me.
Speaker 3 (07:34):
From what I could tell, Wayne was doing in prison
exactly what he was doing in Atlanta in the nineteen eighties,
being a talent scout.
Speaker 6 (07:43):
Okay, we're back, Okay, But like I said, that's my
roommate and he's gonna you know, I really want to
tell in music his words about as a young kid
just hearing about this about getting that story out to
the young people. Understand what I'm saying. That's a powerful way.
As a matter of fact, what I want you to do.
(08:05):
I want you to just introduce yourself briefly to him
like here here he is right now, just telling me
who you are with what we're going to be doing.
Just very but hereious, how you doing?
Speaker 8 (08:14):
Saying how you doing?
Speaker 7 (08:16):
Like wise? Likewise? Uh, well, like Wayne was saying, my
name is Anthony Spencer, and upon me. You know, I
just started like really becoming aware of everything that's going on,
been going on for some time, and it was really
like hell being removed from my eyes. And I'm I've
(08:40):
just been doing a lot of writing, scene writing on
those types of things. Oh yeah, I'm working on something
like specifically for.
Speaker 6 (08:46):
This, and I'm I have it done.
Speaker 7 (08:48):
Like I'm having done as soon as possible, like no
later than tomorrow, like I have been.
Speaker 6 (08:55):
Here's one okay, Yeah, he keeps me level here, excuse
me little.
Speaker 3 (09:04):
This was almost unbelievable to me. Had Wayne tried to
promote fellow inmates as artists before or was this the
first time? And how exactly could someone develop a music
career from prison. Anthony sounded like a young, eager and
anyable guy and above all, he sounded excited to send
me his music inspired by Wayne's story.
Speaker 6 (09:24):
This is somebody who knows me better than anybody, and
we need to put him out there because the public
relations are trying to reach the age group over where.
You meet this guy and his family, you will understand
we need to put him out there. Get with Dwayne,
get with his mother, and we want to go ahead
and we want to put him as that invest in
land him out there. It's not just an artist, but
(09:44):
a commentary and basically he's got his own story to
telling you. Probably in He's got the type of story
to end up a lifetime by himself. And in the
day time, Kayne, get in touch touch with Miss Spencer's mom.
She's in Atlanta.
Speaker 7 (09:59):
I'm gonna call first, I'm gonna call Anthony's ma and
then tell.
Speaker 9 (10:03):
Her that I'm gonna be given her giving you her information.
Speaker 3 (10:08):
These phone calls with Wayne and Dwayne took a lot
of coordinating the prison email system, phone protocol, and of
course our schedules. It took multiple calls before I began
meeting anyone out side of the prison. I asked Wayne
why he thought he was in jail today. Some people
I talked to seemed to think he was a scapegoat
and that maybe this whole thing was orchestrated. Dwayne Hendrix
(10:30):
went as far as to say it was a full
fledged conspiracy. But I wanted to hear what Wayne thought.
Speaker 6 (10:35):
You get me clear? That was not, and never was
a conspiracy to get me before the factors. Nobody knew
the route I was gonna take that night of May
twenty second, regard, not even me. I am a Gemini.
Speaker 3 (10:50):
Gemini, there's that word again, the band that Wayne was
developing in the late seventies. Now, Wayne was using it
as his astrological inspiration for how he lived his life,
including that faithful night on the Jackson Bridge. Gemini is
symbolized by twins, dual personality, volatility, and a tendency to
switch up routines.
Speaker 6 (11:11):
Okay, by birth, I'm a Gemini. That was a last
minute decision I made because I'm the type of person
I'm liable to change my mind in a heartbeat or
when I like drive, getting in the car and just
going You understand what I'm saying. I'm a free spirit
that was a decision I made. The only conspiracy that
came in was once my name hit those FBI computers
(11:34):
and it got to Washington. That's when they panicked because
they had a ran contract going and because two people
in government knew of my background working for the agency
and they were afred to ever the expose that the state.
Lewis Slayton didn't even want to prosecute me. They had
a mine held on June the twentieth, the Sunday before
(11:59):
excuse me before, in which George Bush personally come down
and threaten them. They say, if you don't arrest Wayne Williams,
the Fans will take this case and prosecute it as
a civil rights violation. Slaton didn't even want to prosecute
this case. I am nothing above the Atlanta and Bulton
County and Georgia. My enemy is the federal government still is.
(12:21):
It is not those people if it was up to
let me tell you something. The sheriff a fort in
the county when I was at Fulton County jail before
I went to trial, but I had my record, lot
of people thatsn't healed behind o jail. I used to
go out with one deputy who didn't even have a gun.
We used to go out there across the street from
the jail and go to the store. Now, if that's
how much they were concerned, and they say, you know,
(12:42):
we ain't worried about this. Are you understanding what I'm
trying to tell you? But a person does a crime
and the public doesn't understand it, say a burglary. If
you do one burglar in a neighborhood and they've had
twenty burglers in the neighborhood, they don't give a damn.
You're gonna wear all of those cases so they can
close the books. Because prosecutors in Georgia are elected officials.
(13:03):
They are not appointed, they're elected, and that's one of
the biggest flaws in the criminal justice system. They go
on votes. It's about closing cases. Bottom line. Who whatever
suspect they came up with.
Speaker 5 (13:17):
The you have one that left.
Speaker 6 (13:19):
That's the way it works. It was simple a matter
of rector keeping close the cases to make it look good.
Over ninety percent of the black community knows I didn't
do this and things. I'm medicine.
Speaker 1 (13:30):
But and with the.
Speaker 6 (13:31):
White community is just the opposite. It's only you know,
fifty percent of the white community because of articles like
CNN and what you have. It's a racially polarized perspective.
And the sad part about it is these white communities
find my language, don't know diddly shit about what happened.
The ones who are telling you I didn't do this
(13:51):
are the ones who know. But you know, it's just
like the thing going on with the police killers today,
and there's things in the stadium. In other words, oh fat,
they won't air about. Well, let's just play about that.
Isn't the point. The point is part of my language
just lack in my case. If those athletes have been
just any other person other than an athlete, part of
my language paying but you're gonna hear this, they would
be just another nigga to anybody else. That's the same
(14:13):
thing in this case. Are you understanding the relationships? Why
we have to tell it like this because the black
community has a different perspective on the Atlanta murders than
the white community, totally different, because they know and they
feel that their community had been slighted by the white
community who was more conservative just throwing money in this
and having press conferences. That's the whole hurt.
Speaker 5 (14:36):
The caller has hung up.
Speaker 3 (14:38):
Wayne talked rapidly during our conversation. Maybe it was a
habit formed from having to maximize time while using the
prison phone system, or maybe it's just Wayne. Some of
what he was saying directly reflected the opinions of people
like Monica Pearson and Colinda Lee. These murders were not
handled properly in the eyes of much of the black community. However,
what he said about press conferences was a little conflicting.
(15:01):
Didn't Wayne rally his own press conference at his house?
If he was so opposed to sensationalizing the news, why
would he have done that. The next thing Wayne brought
up was his attorney, Lynn Whatley.
Speaker 6 (15:14):
Well, next conference call, we're gonna have to involve the
attorney Lynn. And I want to tell your point blank.
I don't use this language, but he's an asshole, okay
to deal with, but he's an essential asshole to tell
the story because he's been burnt so many times. I
don't think people understand what Land's problem is, why he
doesn't return calls. And that's when fury is Dwayne, and
you know I've been through it myself. When if we've
(15:36):
been through not but let me tell you something. Lynn
has done everything legally correct. He's been throopped every step
of the way by the courts and prosecutory of his conduct.
You're gonna find out what his frustration is in the
case because of a connection with to Dwayne, and I'll
get it to you will be later on it. He's
not afraid of anything, but it has to do with
(15:57):
some of his family. You'll understand as you talk on that.
But the main thing is Lynn will be able to
make available for you things like the court transcripts, and
he'll be able to tell you what went on behind
the scenes. You know, he'll be able to tell you
what the Supreme Court justice told us before he died,
about the call he got from the Vice President of
the United States, you know, during the during the ovision
(16:20):
of Georgia Supreme Court thing. He'll be able to tell
you what happened on the DNA test and when they
went back in two thousand and nine to test the
two blood samples we had and then went back into
State the very next day of the state crime and
left say oh we lost that overnight. You'll get all
of that. Go ahead and pay that man a visit.
(16:40):
Don't wait on me because he's heard or you we
talked about it. But you know what Lynn is, go
ahead and see him. But like I say, don't get
frustrated with him when he talks crazy. Talk crazy right back.
Speaker 5 (16:49):
To thank you for using secure us, goodbye.
Speaker 3 (16:54):
In a matter of just a few minutes, Winnie made
some pretty big claims about this case, from involvement from
the vice president to lost evidence. I had to talk
to his attorney, Lynn Wattley.
Speaker 1 (17:14):
Hello, this is Lynn Whitely. Please leave your message. Tell
thank you.
Speaker 2 (17:23):
At the tell him please record your message.
Speaker 4 (17:25):
When you finished recording, you may hang up or press.
Speaker 1 (17:28):
One for options.
Speaker 3 (17:34):
No matter how many times I tried to call Wayne's attorney,
Lynn Wattley, I never got an answer.
Speaker 8 (17:40):
Finally, he responded.
Speaker 3 (17:41):
To one of my texts and told me he was
completely busy for the foreseeable future. Wayne said he would
talk to me and that he would provide me with
all the information I needed to see his side of
the story clearly, but apparently Lynn didn't have the time
to talk. In fact, he seemed to be actively avoiding me.
The next person I contacted for Wayne's request was Tracy
(18:02):
Anthony Spencer's mom, Wayne's sellmate. I wanted to know more
about the person Wayne's been living with the past few years,
especially given how Holly Wayne spoke of him.
Speaker 11 (18:16):
Anthony Spencer. He is my oldest son. He's been a
good kid all his life, never in any trouble in school,
not a reprimand or anything. Everybody loves Anthony, miss goodness,
his heart and he's a good person. And when the
(18:36):
incident happened and he went to jail, everyone was in disbelief.
So I said, okay, you know, and let me have
a fish fry. Let me try to raise some money
to do something, maybe a.
Speaker 12 (18:47):
Lawyer, you know.
Speaker 11 (18:48):
So I want to bot all his fish and I
sold six hundred dollars worth of fish in two hours.
Speaker 8 (18:54):
That's a lot of fish.
Speaker 11 (18:55):
That's a lot of fish. But they came to support him.
You know, he's a really good person.
Speaker 12 (19:05):
Some of his.
Speaker 11 (19:05):
Friends had planned an armed robbery, a robbery to rob
the Chinese delivery man.
Speaker 3 (19:14):
From what his mom told me, Anthony was likely at
the wrong place at the wrong time. He wasn't part
of the plan, but he was there. Besides that, I
knew very few details about the incident, but.
Speaker 11 (19:26):
The judge said at the end of the trial that
he didn't want a sentence Anthony to ten years. He
knew that he didn't deserve that judge kill and it
was I felt that it was heartfelt, you know. He
didn't want to do that, but he said by law
he had to. He had no choice.
Speaker 12 (19:46):
Anthony's in tail Fair prison.
Speaker 11 (19:49):
He started off and Waycross and then he went to
Valdosta and now he's in tail Fair. Anthony has been
in prison this summer seven years.
Speaker 8 (20:01):
How's that been?
Speaker 12 (20:03):
It's rough. I have a ten year old.
Speaker 11 (20:14):
And Anthony spends so much time with him, and it
hurts me to see them hurt, you know, cause they
they missed.
Speaker 12 (20:24):
There, but they're simply you know. Yeah, it's rough.
Speaker 13 (20:30):
You know.
Speaker 11 (20:30):
I feel like he should be out here l l.
He made a mistake, but he should be out here
to live with his life. He doesn't know how to drive,
you know, I don't even know if he's ever even
had sex, you know, I you know, nothing, He hasn't
n hasn't even.
Speaker 12 (20:43):
Begin to live his life.
Speaker 14 (20:45):
You know.
Speaker 11 (20:46):
Anthony does the newsletter in prison, and since he's been
at Telfair, he met him Lane, and I think that
helps to have someone that you can communicate with that's
there and that really understands what's going on, opposed to
me really understanding what prison life is like. You know,
when Anthony first emailed me and told me that he
(21:10):
met Wayne Williams, I was.
Speaker 2 (21:12):
Like, wow, why.
Speaker 11 (21:16):
Stay away him? Do you know where that is? He
was like yeah, ma, I said, boy, that is the Jews, and.
Speaker 12 (21:24):
I'm a child martyr.
Speaker 11 (21:25):
I said, now, I don't think he killed them kids,
but I don't know what Wayne be doing.
Speaker 12 (21:29):
Stay away from his.
Speaker 11 (21:30):
Ass, you know exactly what I don't. And he was
like kind of distraught, you know, like, and then he
kept coming at me with it, well, this person is
going to call you, and this person is this person
gonna call you? And I'm looking at the email like whatever,
you know, recently, probably about a month or so ago,
(21:51):
you know, and I could just hear in his voice
how much his attitude and his spirit had lifted, you know,
And I started listening to him. I said, this really
means something to him. You know, I can't tell him
what to believe and what to think. That's only for
me to do for myself. Wayne, to me, sounds like
(22:15):
he gives him good advice. And I just hope their
relationship is is a good relationship.
Speaker 6 (22:23):
You know.
Speaker 11 (22:23):
Like I said, I don't know too much about Wayne personally,
but I spoke with Wayne a few weeks ago and
I was.
Speaker 4 (22:32):
Like, huh Wayne waalms.
Speaker 11 (22:36):
So I called my daughter, I say, guess what.
Speaker 12 (22:39):
I just got the phone Wayne Wams.
Speaker 11 (22:42):
Oh my god.
Speaker 2 (22:43):
You know.
Speaker 11 (22:46):
She was like what.
Speaker 2 (22:47):
Mom.
Speaker 11 (22:47):
I was like, yes, I was like, I can't believe this.
Speaker 12 (22:50):
Call all my sisters.
Speaker 11 (22:54):
It was like meeting. It was He's you know, I mean,
it's like that was something that's deep, you know. And
I'm not into celebrities, you know, I'm just not, you know,
because they don't do nothing for me. So, you know,
but to actually speak to Wayne Williams, and I know
(23:17):
from doing a little research that I've done on him,
and you know, which didn't tell me too much.
Speaker 12 (23:23):
He's a very.
Speaker 11 (23:24):
Intelligent guy, very intelligent.
Speaker 12 (23:28):
I was just excited.
Speaker 3 (23:30):
You said he was a like an icon, right, Yeah,
what do you think he represents?
Speaker 11 (23:36):
I don't know exactly what he represents. He represents hisself,
you know, And I know he's been advocating to get
out of there, you know, and like everyone else, he
just wants to live his life but he's I think
he's a good person.
Speaker 12 (23:52):
Think he probably was just a scapegoat.
Speaker 11 (23:54):
And he seemed kind of weird, you know, from when
I look at the films and stuff back in the day, like,
you know, a little nerdy type, you know. But he
was smart, smart. I know, he was into electronics and radio,
you know. But it seemed like he kept to himself
back then.
Speaker 12 (24:12):
You know.
Speaker 11 (24:16):
It's sad, But I don't know. I really don't know
what he represents. I don't know what he represents. I
just talked to him. That was that brief five minute conversation.
He just told me call me, address me Ms McCain
and told me who he was. And then he proceeded
(24:39):
to talk about Anthony and how bright and intelligence he
really thinks he is, and.
Speaker 12 (24:48):
He's talented, you know.
Speaker 11 (24:49):
He told me how talented he is, and he said
he has his lawyer helping with Anthony's case, and he
said he didn't want anything, He just wanted us to advocate,
you know, for him.
Speaker 8 (25:02):
In what way.
Speaker 11 (25:04):
I'm assuming, like his story or whatever he's trying to
convey to the outside world, that he wants us to
grab a hold of that and help convey the message
because everybody doesn't listen to podcasts. Like I said, I
never didn't even know what a podcast was, you know,
And that's all he asks in a return.
Speaker 8 (25:21):
As a mother.
Speaker 3 (25:22):
Is there any part of you that has any sort
of fear or sense of uneasiness that Anthony cellmate was
accused of doing something like that?
Speaker 11 (25:31):
I don't think, because I know I don't think he
does he did anything. My fear was for like five years,
was that something would happen to my.
Speaker 12 (25:41):
Son, you know, person inside prison.
Speaker 11 (25:45):
That was my biggest fear. Yeah, you know, I just
pray for him, you know, and he comes out of
this thing unscathed and in his right mind, you know,
to be become productive citizen outside those walls, you know.
And now I'm just like I'm smiling every day because
(26:08):
I know it's now we're on count down.
Speaker 4 (26:10):
You know.
Speaker 11 (26:10):
I'm just ready for my son to get busy, get
to work, live its life, find a nice lady, get married,
have me some grand babies. You know, Hey, what more
could you ask for?
Speaker 15 (26:21):
You know?
Speaker 11 (26:21):
And I can fatten them up and feed them everything
and bake them everything.
Speaker 2 (26:25):
You know.
Speaker 12 (26:26):
I was ready for him to come.
Speaker 8 (26:27):
Home, of course.
Speaker 3 (26:29):
Tracy isn't the only one who's unsure about Wayne's conviction.
After meeting Tracy, I spoke to another family member of
a victim, Jeffrey Mathews's cousin Mel. Growing up, Nell saw
first hand what Jeffrey's murder did to his family emotionally,
and he told me his entire family doubts they'll ever
get closure.
Speaker 16 (26:48):
Jeffrey, you know, he was a very good kid. He
was very you know, mantable, smart. You know, he was
you know, playful, like to go to the you know,
the stores and stuff and you know, make pocket mining
and stuff.
Speaker 12 (27:00):
But he was a very good kid.
Speaker 16 (27:01):
And the night he went missing, his mother sent him
to the store to run in for her, and he
was taking so long to come back, so she sent
his oldest brothers go look.
Speaker 12 (27:11):
For him, and he never did return, and.
Speaker 16 (27:14):
It was over eleven months before they found him.
Speaker 3 (27:17):
What does your family think about what happened to him?
Speaker 16 (27:20):
The only thing we know is he just he back in,
you know, in ninety eighty he went to the store
and he never did return, So far as us ever
knowing what really happened to him, probably never let to know.
Speaker 9 (27:32):
Do you think Wade lives wolves and his murdered.
Speaker 16 (27:35):
No, I never do think that. What well, I cauldn't
really see him as really being any one that hurt anybody.
He was just too much of like an intelligent, wiz
kind of like guy, and he wanted to be like
known into the media and you know, kind of like
a big entrepreneur guy. And I just can't see him
(27:56):
even hurting anybody. He just didn't look that energetic enough
to me.
Speaker 12 (27:59):
He didn't.
Speaker 10 (28:01):
But I don't know.
Speaker 5 (28:02):
If he is.
Speaker 16 (28:03):
Guilty of some of the murders, you know, I would
I would just you know, hope for them to just say, well,
we're gonna just go after him for those and then
bring the right other killers to justice for the Recipe
cases and just properly prosecute them. My family has been
through you know, hell like chaotic miss you know, not
(28:24):
knowing what happened.
Speaker 8 (28:27):
If we don't know.
Speaker 16 (28:28):
Anything, they had, they had to get it over with,
They had to get it over with, and it was
just like when they solve the case, it's like the
world to stop listening. But we just really want to
know what happened and why that's about it, just want
to just get.
Speaker 12 (28:43):
Closure and what's good.
Speaker 14 (28:45):
Take.
Speaker 16 (28:46):
Well, it's gonna take the right people at the right
time to come along and say, well, let me try
to right this wrong. Just get these get these families
closed because they need it.
Speaker 3 (28:57):
If there are so many people like mel and Anthony's
mom who aren't convinced of Wayne's guilt and the only
evidence of his involvement was trace fiber evidence, how was
he in jail? Well, the FBI profilers played a huge
part in that. At the time of the Atlanta child murders,
FBI profiling was a pretty new practice. I asked Macomas
and Popcorn for more detail about the profile that was
(29:19):
made prior to Wayne Williams arrest, and I have to
admit it was eerily accurate.
Speaker 10 (29:25):
Our profilers, and John Douglas being one of them, had
given us twenty one points that we could look for
that this guy would resemble, and one of them was
is that he would be very conscious of the news media.
And also John said he would be driving a white car,
which he was. He said he'd be an only child,
which he was. I think out of the twenty one
(29:47):
out of the twenty one points he hit about twenty
of them. It was spooky. Yeah, it's an amazing science,
which I've never understood, but we had two guys that
were the best in the world at that time at it.
In my layman's I think is a social path. I
think he exhibits all the characteristics.
Speaker 15 (30:05):
Based on the profile. Basically is going to be a
blackmail released from prison, arrested for a minor traffic infraction,
impersonated at a police officer. And we got a list
of three thousand names, and damn if Wayne Williams's name
wasn't on that list, we eventually would have sent two
agents out to interview him. Wayne was on that list
because he had been arrested for, of all things, in
(30:26):
personing a police officer who were expecting a guy with
one eye in the middle of his forehead and horns,
who expecting the devil himself? And what he got was
who is this guy?
Speaker 5 (30:36):
Small?
Speaker 15 (30:37):
Not very threatening at all. Who is this guy? That's
Wayne Williams. Get him out of here, Get him the
hell out of here. He's not the killer because he
comes across as a nerd.
Speaker 3 (30:48):
Let's refer back to Jasper and Eric Cameron. They grew
up in West Atlanta during the nineteen eighties. What did
they think when Wayne Williams turned out to be the boogeyman.
Speaker 8 (30:56):
According to the News, he's.
Speaker 17 (30:58):
Like the picture to post a child for the Atlanta
Missing the murder kids. You get what I'm saying now,
Like that's when they said that mister murderschers. First thing
think about Wayne Williams. That was the bigger man of Atlanta.
Like they show us this picture him, and you know
how we be judge Midler.
Speaker 8 (31:14):
You know, he looked like yeah, you know, he had.
Speaker 17 (31:16):
The glasses and yeah, he looked like he could do
some shit like that, you know, you know how people
be judgemental, you know, really, but you know, it was
I mean, it was kind of hard to believe.
Speaker 8 (31:25):
Honestly.
Speaker 17 (31:25):
I think he could have done some things, but I
don't think he killed all those kids.
Speaker 4 (31:31):
You know.
Speaker 8 (31:32):
My whole thing was.
Speaker 17 (31:33):
At the time, it was like a lot of racial
stuff going on, and I think at the time they
didn't want it to be something that would separate the
city racially. You know, they didn't want it to be
you know, they didn't want to find out it was
some white guys or the Klan or something. You know,
they didn't want that because they knew what it will happen.
Speaker 18 (31:50):
Kind of like what was going on there with the
thing like divisive? Yeah, like you know that divide people.
You could bring in confusion and really could tell part
every thing we like, the police say he did it,
he did it.
Speaker 8 (32:04):
You know you believe the police. I mean, at least
you want to believe the police.
Speaker 18 (32:08):
Back then, though, you look at the police officers, ask
your safety net. You know, some people had bad experiences
with cop before. The most part, you look at police
as like they here to protect and look out for us,
to make sure we're okay.
Speaker 8 (32:20):
The day.
Speaker 18 (32:21):
To be honest with you, it is so much information,
good or bad that how can I say this not
it's always a beautiful thing. But sometimes with everything being
so open, I don't know if that's good because it
desensitized people way it is now, man, the world just
so desensitized. Man, Like you'll get more intention now from
going to somebody taping the recorder slapping them on the
(32:42):
street than really helping them.
Speaker 8 (32:45):
Back in the day. You see something happening, you will help. Now.
The first thing you hear somebody world star. You know
it's not for real.
Speaker 17 (32:52):
It's like shit going on to somebody holling world star,
Like really now you don't look at the police.
Speaker 18 (32:57):
It's saying like if people don't look at them, to
say look.
Speaker 17 (32:59):
At and for whatever reason, you know, it's kind of
like you kind of if the police you be like,
I don't know, you know, I can't really let me see.
Speaker 8 (33:07):
Let's look at the evidence.
Speaker 17 (33:09):
Yeah, you know, let's dissect the evidence. You know, everybody
a forensic scientists, all these shows on TV now and
all this, Let's check the evidence.
Speaker 8 (33:23):
I began asking Wayne for some hard evidence.
Speaker 3 (33:26):
I needed names, stories and leads to follow up on
or else I couldn't even tell the story he was
painting for me.
Speaker 8 (33:32):
Jasper and Eric were right in times.
Speaker 3 (33:34):
Of doubt, you have to go back to the evidence,
and unfortunately, there's not too much to go off of
in this case. But Wayne promised me that he had
big things to share, things that would shake the foundation
of his conviction.
Speaker 6 (33:54):
You're gonna get to hear from Sidney Dorsey, who was
an ex He was the person responsible men putting me
in prison. Now he wants to tell the story about
the witnesses he paid and why he did what he did.
I'm not in the theories. I'm in the facts and
what I'm saying, is there some facts that we have
from an investigative point of view, from their side of
(34:14):
the case, that have never been revealo publicly. These are
the types of things that I want to put out
and let people come to their own conclusion of You're
gonna hear from a number of people who were involved
in this case who didn't necessarily come forward, and they'll explain.
Speaker 1 (34:28):
To you their reasons.
Speaker 6 (34:29):
And on this, you're gonna have a mundands of people
that are going to say, Okay, well, let me show
you this. You know that's what's gonna happen, and you're
gonna find out all of what happened behind the scenes
on this. It'll be one of the biggest stories you've
ever done. I promise you that once you hear that story,
you're gonna say, oh my god, you're gonna really understand
this story.
Speaker 3 (34:50):
But it was hard to get the details out of them.
Speaker 6 (34:54):
You're gonna find out about all of that. You're gonna
get all of them. You're gonna get all of them.
You're gonna get that, We're gonna get all of that
for you. You're gonna get the whole deal. All of
this is gonna open up You're gonna have more than
enough background on that. I'm gonna definitely talk about that.
Y'all gonna believe it is incredible. These are things that
you're gonna learn as we talk all of that. You're
gonna get all of that. You're gonna get all of
the Trust me, You're gonna get all of it. You're
(35:15):
gonna you're gonna get a hold of you. You've got
a lot to talk about, man, So believe you're gonna
get it all. You're gonna get that. You're you're gonna
get all of that. Don't don't worry about it. That's
gonna come.
Speaker 8 (35:47):
Over time.
Speaker 3 (35:48):
I picked up on some of Wayne's stories and began
looking into them. The next thing Wayne brought up was
physical evidence that linked some of the victims to other
suspicious groups.
Speaker 6 (35:58):
Oh well, I think it's several thousand fingerprints that they
took in this case. There's not a single finger print
if the victims. Hey, if you were saying twenty thirty,
I don't have a many it was, we don't even know.
If you were saying these folks had association with Wayne
Williams and his environment, sure that would have been some
forensic governance a fingerprint for some of the victims in
a house car or some of my nothing. You understand
(36:21):
what I'm saying. This was a true witch hunt. So
and we want to attack the witnesses that lied and
why they lied under this right here, because they were
trying to get a half million dollar reward.
Speaker 8 (36:35):
Wayne seemed to be right about this the fiber evidence.
Speaker 12 (36:38):
At least.
Speaker 3 (36:39):
A Washington Post article from nineteen eighty two quotes crime
lab microanalyst Larry Peterson, who worked this case and stood
behind the fiber evidence. He's quoted saying, we didn't have
any bullets or fingerprints, only what we got off the bodies.
Speaker 6 (36:53):
Hey, you've got groups of killings. Some of them were
unrelated to others. They just happened to the same time.
You've got six or eight pieces that we know that
white supremacists were involved, and we know this for a fact,
including certain there are certain physical evidence Caucasian fibers you
never heard about. We know for a fact in six
(37:15):
of those murders. We know this for a fact based
not just on their assumption, but based on the physical
and biological evidence to finding a Caucasian fibers. In addition
to witness Deneverans on the scientific evidence. We know this
for a fact, but I don't want it to be
put out. Whether KKK put out at lad murders. Oh no, no, no, no, no,
we don't understand. We know they did six.
Speaker 3 (37:37):
According to FBI records, two Caucasian head fibers were found
on the body of Charles Stevens, but it didn't seem
to be a recurring pattern from what I could find
at least. And then Wayne brought up a homosexual ring.
Speaker 6 (37:50):
We know that another six cases were involved in a
homosexual ring going on in Atlanta, Black homosexual ring.
Speaker 19 (37:57):
It's been learned that investigators have now found this man,
Tom Terrell and questioned him today about his role in
some type of homosexual ring operated out of this home
in northwest Atlanta. That ring apparently involved the latest child victim,
Timothy Hill, and through recent findings, may have linked together
several other children on the task Force list.
Speaker 3 (38:18):
I read about this man, Tom Terrell in my research,
and he did seem like a pretty suspicious and potentially
dangerous man. Tom Yrrell owned two houses on Gray Street,
one that may have been a haven for pedophiles and
sex offenders, and one that was his place of residence.
A witness said that Heat had sex with one of
the Atlanta child murder victims, Timothy Hill, at one of
(38:39):
Tom Tyrrell's houses on Gray Street. He also claimed to
have seen at least ten other victims at the same house.
Speaker 19 (38:45):
Terrell knows this man, Larry Marshall, now in a Connecticut
jail on armed robbery charges.
Speaker 20 (38:50):
Marshall is believed to have known at least three of
the victims, Patrick Biltazar, Timothy Hill, and Joseph Bell, who
was still missing before his arrest. Marshall shared a house
in West Atlanta with this man, Jerry Thornton. Thornton says
police showed him pictures of the child victims and he
recognized ten of them, and Marshall is an.
Speaker 8 (39:10):
Acquaintance of Tom Terrell.
Speaker 20 (39:11):
Terrell lives in this house on Gray Street, Northwest, where
several of the victims are said to have spent some time.
The house has also been linked to an alleged sex
for a higher ring involving young boys. Police have been
watching the house and investigators have talked to Terrell a
number of times so far.
Speaker 19 (39:28):
Though no one revolving around this homosexual ring has been arrested.
Speaker 8 (39:32):
As a suspect.
Speaker 21 (39:33):
It's not known what Tom Terrell has told police or
just how helpful Larry Marshall might be if he decides
to cooperate, but even investigators who are skeptical about Marshall's
possible contributions to the case say this sex ring is
an important investigative theory certainly worth following up.
Speaker 19 (39:50):
These are members of gay dignity homosexuals who don't like
what the media has been reporting the last few days.
Those reports center around a possible sex ring that includes
homosexual mens, one of them being Marshall. Investigators know Marshal
knew Timothy Hill and possibly other boys on the task
force list. Hill and the others hung out here in
a northwest Atlanta home owned by and admitted homosexual. Although
(40:12):
there is no hard evidence, the task force is looking
into the possibility that some type of sex ring may
be involved in the killings. These gays think the word
homosexual has been used too.
Speaker 12 (40:23):
Much, you know.
Speaker 22 (40:24):
They reemphasize homosexual in every adjective or nouns in most
cases when they're talking about this incident, rather than just
speaking of the word sexual as I stated earlier. In
many cases when there's rape and so involved. The headlines
do not read heterosexual man. It reads sexual assault or
something like that, but it does not read heterosexual. And
the word black. You know, another comparison, when it's a
(40:46):
person who is a criminal, they don't refer to the
person as a black man, or a Yellow man or
a Chinese man. They refer to him as a man.
Speaker 19 (40:53):
The gays already think they are stereotyped and that the
latest theory involving homosexuals will do nothing to help the problem.
They're afraid that if it is a homosexual committing the crimes,
then they all will be condemned, not just the one person.
They have now offered to help the task force in
any way hoping to stop the implications.
Speaker 14 (41:11):
Clearly, homophobia continues to be rampant. People are not necessarily
speaking candidly and freely about gay identity. There is a
lot of incredibly inappropriate conflation with gayness and predatory behavior,
and particularly with gayness and predatory behavior towards children. So
(41:35):
you know, it's not a distant step for people who
are thinking in that way to think, well, certainly somebody
who's gay would be somebody who might be a danger
to children and et cetera, et cetera, etc. Although there's
clearly no real evidence for such a connection, and so
that clearly seems to have had a role to play
(41:55):
in how people were thinking, first of all, about the murders,
thinking about that children, thinking about the taboo around, talking
about how some of the children were assaulted not just
because of a kind of respect for victims, but also
because of a sense of soiling of tainted nests, because
(42:17):
of any kind of connection with homosexual activity. So like
all of that was a part of that conversation. And
then you have these murders, clearly of young black gay men.
Whether it's part of this pattern or a separate issue,
it's hard for me to understand how the murders of
these fully adult, albeit young men feel the same as
(42:41):
the murders of six and eight nine year olds. But
all of that serves together to further marginalize, vilify, shroud
in secrecy and taboo, and taint the victims and to
stomachs the ultimately the man who's accused of the murders.
Speaker 23 (42:58):
During that time period, we were not looking at child
trafficking the way we are now. We didn't talk about
child prostitution back then. And how children could have been
picked up and used for illicit means. During that time,
very homophobic time too. People could not accept people for
(43:21):
who they were, and every person who was a homosexual
was considered to be a pedophile, which is not true.
It was so disheartening to see that negativity that also
was pointed at.
Speaker 12 (43:38):
The gay community. But that was the time.
Speaker 23 (43:41):
Thanks be to God, we have grown, but that was
really very frightening. That was never looked into, as far
as I know by law enforcement sex trafficking, not homosexuality.
Speaker 10 (43:56):
But sex trafficking.
Speaker 23 (43:57):
So you know, did they look into known pedophile. I mean,
it could have been a pedophile who did.
Speaker 3 (44:03):
This, no matter how you slice it. Wayne became a suspect.
The night he was stopping the bridge.
Speaker 10 (44:21):
We had two people under both sides of the bridge,
police cadets, and of course we kept him hitting out
and then in close proximity we had a chase car
on each side of the bridge, and they too blended
in so that they couldn't be seen. In about two
or three in the morning, they heard a huge splash woke.
Speaker 15 (44:39):
Up the two guys underneath the bridge, one of them
who was a high school swimmer. He said, that's a
body hitting the water. And he looks up and he
radios his friend across the bridge. Is there a car
on the bridge.
Speaker 10 (44:49):
And there was only one vehicle on that bridge.
Speaker 15 (44:51):
The guy says, yeah, it's starting to move slowly.
Speaker 10 (44:54):
The car appeared to be just starting up again like
it had been stopped, and it was going two or
three miles an hour. Then across the bridge circled around
I think a convenience store.
Speaker 15 (45:06):
Pulls around right in front of a police car, hiding
in the bushes, and goes back up the highway to
a two eighty five will. They chased him down and
as soon.
Speaker 10 (45:15):
As he pulled off, that's when our cars tagged him.
Speaker 6 (45:18):
They got him.
Speaker 3 (45:19):
There's a lot of ambiguity about what actually happened that night,
so I asked Wayne for his account the officer's Wayne
mentions in his account our agent Greg Gilliland of the
FBI two rookie Atlanta police recruits, Officer Bob Campbell and
Officer Freddie Jacobs, and Atlanta police veteran Carl Holden. Allegedly
the recruit, officer Campbell was stationed under the bridge and
(45:41):
officer Jacobs was stationed on the bridge. And Holden was
in his car at a nearby liquor store. The James
Jackson Parkway bridge connects two counties, Fulton County and Cobb County,
and apparently at the time of the incident, there was
a liquor store on the Fulton County side South Cobb Parkway.
The route Wayne was apparently taking that night goes over
the Chattahoochee River. The Chattahoochee, of course, is where bodies
(46:04):
have been showing up.
Speaker 9 (46:09):
I hadn't even gone to sleep. I had been up
all day feeling the pictures an kid time. I was
coming from a trying to find an address off the
touth coff Promptly it turned out to be a fake address,
and one of the auditions we had back quite often
then address was no Goods house. Returning home, and as
I came home, like I said, I went south on
(46:32):
South Corosk promptly across the bridge and across the bridge,
I turned into that gravel parking lot to my right,
briefly turned you know, turn on the lights, look number.
Turned back on the road pro seated about a quarter
of a mile to what I identified as the liquor store,
which is on the left, so I picked up some
(46:54):
boxes there Boston the street. I made a call and
turned back north warner back across the bridge. Used to
get on my tweeted high. As I a fortued the bridge,
I saw a car headlights.
Speaker 6 (47:06):
Come halfway in the road.
Speaker 9 (47:08):
He full back and then he passed and turned him
behind him. He turned out that the headlights were those
of Carl Holding, the Atlanta police officers who was parked
beside the liquor store at the bridge. They followed me
on to tweeted five before hours, stop hamble the load
of bridge. He says he heard a splash. This was
(47:35):
the radio sequence one one thousand, two thousand three. During
this time, cambl said he was sweet.
Speaker 6 (47:45):
He got up.
Speaker 9 (47:46):
He walked about fifty yards to the edge of the river.
He shined his light on the water. He says he
saw ruppers and say he looked up on the bridge.
He looked up back down at the river three times,
and he said, Freddy, is there a car and the bridge.
I just heard a splash. Benny says, yes, it's coming
towards me.
Speaker 6 (48:06):
I got it.
Speaker 9 (48:07):
Dug Fia is filling that, Yeah, I got it, just
coming towards me. Stops that's the time of sequence they
testified to the court. That's the contradiction. During that sequence,
(48:27):
there's no way any car could have been born south
on the bridge, turn into the gravel park line and
turn back north. That's the absolutely hostibility that car Mine
hadn't have been traveling north the entire time of sequence.
The bottom line is there was no splash.
Speaker 8 (48:55):
Next time on Atlanta Monster, do you hear my voice?
Speaker 3 (49:03):
Yeah, So you have to go to the opposite side
of them.
Speaker 13 (49:11):
So we have the rope with a clip that can
clip on to Randy and then we have it clipped
on this side sticked into the ground over here.
Speaker 1 (49:22):
So we want to get a camera on pane as
quick as potiball. Then Candler will have his camera up here.
Speaker 6 (49:44):
We're good, up here, We're ready on here.
Speaker 8 (49:45):
Call God, I here, Yeah, thank you.
Speaker 4 (49:50):
Action.
Speaker 3 (49:58):
Atlanta Monster is an investigative podcast toll week by week
with new episodes every Friday. A joint production between House
Stuff Works and Tenderfoot TV. Original music is by Makeup
and Vanity Set. Audio archives courtesy of WSB News Film
and Videotape Collection, Brown Media Archives, University of Georgia Libraries.
Speaker 8 (50:20):
For the latest updates, please visit.
Speaker 3 (50:22):
Atlantamonster dot com or follow us on social media. One
last thing, we've set up an Atlanta Monster tip line.
Anyone with information, leads, or personal accounts pertaining to the
Atlanta child murders can call us and leave a message.
Speaker 8 (50:36):
The number is one.
Speaker 3 (50:38):
Eight three three two eight five six six sixty seven. Again,
that's one eight three three two eight five six six
sixty seven.
Speaker 8 (50:49):
Thanks for listening.
Speaker 24 (51:17):
I don't know what the belief I wasn't told what
the believed material listed younger, naive new air rebels against
a parent ass back was like Chris Krossky and lost
in the streets. Reality turned thoughts to debris and a
heart to concrete.
Speaker 2 (51:29):
Weighing me down.
Speaker 24 (51:30):
I don't know what to believe, wearing me down.
Speaker 12 (51:32):
I don't know what to believe.
Speaker 1 (51:35):
Yeah,
Hello, You are receiving a call from Whitewaya You an
inmate at a correctional facility. Press one to consent to
the delivery of a pre recorded message with information on
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(00:30):
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Speaker 2 (00:39):
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Name Payne okay, so is your first name name?
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Zero one name zero one one second one five four
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Speaker 5 (02:17):
Goodbye, This conference is being recorded.
Speaker 6 (02:41):
Everybody. Yeah, can you hear Wayne?
Speaker 7 (02:45):
Oh yeah, dang, can you hear Wayne?
Speaker 8 (02:48):
I can? Can you hear me?
Speaker 9 (02:50):
Okay?
Speaker 5 (02:51):
Okay?
Speaker 8 (02:52):
Is this pain is your Yeah?
Speaker 3 (02:55):
This is pain. That's my first name. We've got Payne,
Wayne and Dwayne.
Speaker 6 (03:00):
To tell it. My way to me is not really
was important because my way is the right way, and
it's the truth about what happened. You know, were to me?
You know, let the butt fall where it may, you know, wherever,
because there's only one true truth is truth, you know,
And and all this I guess fake as we say
as we hear all this stuff. You know, I'm not
(03:21):
into that either. And the truth in this case is
really simple. It's not complex or anything, but it's just
it's the truth that people may not want to hear,
and it's the truth that they have to hear to
understand what happened. And it continues to happen. Now, let
me give you just a little so and by the way,
if time goes, we have to come up and call
it because I'll explain to you as we go to
(03:41):
mechanics and how we got to communicate it all because
it's kind of weird here, you know, so, so basically
what we're what we were looking for from a documentary
point of view, there's a multi cart thing to tell
the story. You can't tell it in sixty minutes, like
you not both know it's not important. In other words,
people don't need to hear and see what that's not
what's important. These other people have a story to tell.
They're gonna tell my story for me. That's what I'm saying.
(04:03):
You understand what I'm getting that you're gonna you will
fully understand once we get into this. Because one thing
about prison, you can't fool these guys a year. If
these people thought I killed somebody had done something like that,
I'd have been dead the first day I get the
county jail. Are you understanding me? I'm in a close
security prison and a dog with eighty other inmates. Shank's
now all that floating around. You got crips, bloods, geed,
(04:27):
all kinds of games here, and I got down good
relations with all of them. If they thought that, I
wouldn't be you know, you understanding what I'm saying. This
is the reality that you're gonna get to telling his story.
Speaker 4 (04:37):
Man.
Speaker 6 (04:37):
You know you can't fool con If they can smell it,
they can smell a w rec if there's a wreck.
You know, it's almost like a dog. You know, a
dog knows an evil person for the good. They'll start growling,
you know, so so you know it'll come out. This
isn't about Wayne, This isn't just about me. This is
for all those families who never got justice of all
(04:57):
these years. They deserve some answers because I'm in a
prison now with two family members. I'm here with the
uncle and a cousin of two of the murder victors.
We play ball every day together. If you understand what
I'm saying, we need to tell this to I'll see
that hurt and pain they've shared. We have shared things.
There's a bond right there that needs to be told.
Family members. We're in contact will They have given us
(05:20):
information and at least eight of the cases they know
who killed the people, but the police refused to act on.
These are the things that we need to bring out
in these documentaries.
Speaker 3 (05:30):
I've heard from the FBI, the APD, and victims' families.
Now it's time to hear from Wayne. I asked Wayne
what he wanted to say, What did he personally want
to put out to the world.
Speaker 6 (05:41):
My thing is put the facts out and and speak
for yourself. We don't need to doctor it up. Just
just put it out there. And when we explain, like
things like the bridge so called bridge incident, what did
and did not happen, Like Dwayne and I have talked to,
it'll make sense now once we can go through you
hear it all. You an't going to believe it. It's incredible.
Also in the podcast. In other words, there's another component
(06:04):
on this. I have been doing a lot of work
with the younger generation, in particular the music Committee community
to getting them involved. Okay, one of which, by the way,
is my Salemate. He's a twenty one year old kid
who grew up in everything. He's a writer, not only
a rap star, but he's very intelligent. He actually wrote
that the name of my life story is called Shadow Drinks.
(06:26):
He actually wrote the theme song for that, and I
want to include in the podcast through doing some of
his writings and all comments on the social comments thereity.
You know, that's another way of telling it reaching the
younger audience. So with you and the reason why. This
is somebody and you may find this incredible, but this
is somebody who lives with me twenty four hours a day,
seven days a week. We're on the same referee. He
(06:48):
knows me probably better than my own family at this point.
And if you want to know what Oney Williams is
really right, Anthonyspense is the person you ask you understand
what I'm saying. And the other part I'm asking you
to do, like I said, is on a young man
I want to launch as recording artist, Anthony Spencer. Let
me first give you thank.
Speaker 10 (07:05):
You, producing securists.
Speaker 5 (07:07):
Goodbye this old time.
Speaker 6 (07:08):
He gonna call back in like thirty seconds.
Speaker 8 (07:24):
I was pretty surprised. Did Wayne have an artist?
Speaker 3 (07:27):
He was trying to manage from prison, another young black
male like Jimmy.
Speaker 8 (07:31):
But this time the artist wasn't sell me.
Speaker 3 (07:34):
From what I could tell, Wayne was doing in prison
exactly what he was doing in Atlanta in the nineteen eighties,
being a talent scout.
Speaker 6 (07:43):
Okay, we're back, Okay, But like I said, that's my
roommate and he's gonna you know, I really want to
tell in music his words about as a young kid
just hearing about this about getting that story out to
the young people. Understand what I'm saying. That's a powerful way.
As a matter of fact, what I want you to do.
(08:05):
I want you to just introduce yourself briefly to him
like here here he is right now, just telling me
who you are with what we're going to be doing.
Just very but hereious, how you doing?
Speaker 8 (08:14):
Saying how you doing?
Speaker 7 (08:16):
Like wise? Likewise? Uh, well, like Wayne was saying, my
name is Anthony Spencer, and upon me. You know, I
just started like really becoming aware of everything that's going on,
been going on for some time, and it was really
like hell being removed from my eyes. And I'm I've
(08:40):
just been doing a lot of writing, scene writing on
those types of things. Oh yeah, I'm working on something
like specifically for.
Speaker 6 (08:46):
This, and I'm I have it done.
Speaker 7 (08:48):
Like I'm having done as soon as possible, like no
later than tomorrow, like I have been.
Speaker 6 (08:55):
Here's one okay, Yeah, he keeps me level here, excuse
me little.
Speaker 3 (09:04):
This was almost unbelievable to me. Had Wayne tried to
promote fellow inmates as artists before or was this the
first time? And how exactly could someone develop a music
career from prison. Anthony sounded like a young, eager and
anyable guy and above all, he sounded excited to send
me his music inspired by Wayne's story.
Speaker 6 (09:24):
This is somebody who knows me better than anybody, and
we need to put him out there because the public
relations are trying to reach the age group over where.
You meet this guy and his family, you will understand
we need to put him out there. Get with Dwayne,
get with his mother, and we want to go ahead
and we want to put him as that invest in
land him out there. It's not just an artist, but
(09:44):
a commentary and basically he's got his own story to
telling you. Probably in He's got the type of story
to end up a lifetime by himself. And in the
day time, Kayne, get in touch touch with Miss Spencer's mom.
She's in Atlanta.
Speaker 7 (09:59):
I'm gonna call first, I'm gonna call Anthony's ma and
then tell.
Speaker 9 (10:03):
Her that I'm gonna be given her giving you her information.
Speaker 3 (10:08):
These phone calls with Wayne and Dwayne took a lot
of coordinating the prison email system, phone protocol, and of
course our schedules. It took multiple calls before I began
meeting anyone out side of the prison. I asked Wayne
why he thought he was in jail today. Some people
I talked to seemed to think he was a scapegoat
and that maybe this whole thing was orchestrated. Dwayne Hendrix
(10:30):
went as far as to say it was a full
fledged conspiracy. But I wanted to hear what Wayne thought.
Speaker 6 (10:35):
You get me clear? That was not, and never was
a conspiracy to get me before the factors. Nobody knew
the route I was gonna take that night of May
twenty second, regard, not even me. I am a Gemini.
Speaker 3 (10:50):
Gemini, there's that word again, the band that Wayne was
developing in the late seventies. Now, Wayne was using it
as his astrological inspiration for how he lived his life,
including that faithful night on the Jackson Bridge. Gemini is
symbolized by twins, dual personality, volatility, and a tendency to
switch up routines.
Speaker 6 (11:11):
Okay, by birth, I'm a Gemini. That was a last
minute decision I made because I'm the type of person
I'm liable to change my mind in a heartbeat or
when I like drive, getting in the car and just
going You understand what I'm saying. I'm a free spirit
that was a decision I made. The only conspiracy that
came in was once my name hit those FBI computers
(11:34):
and it got to Washington. That's when they panicked because
they had a ran contract going and because two people
in government knew of my background working for the agency
and they were afred to ever the expose that the state.
Lewis Slayton didn't even want to prosecute me. They had
a mine held on June the twentieth, the Sunday before
(11:59):
excuse me before, in which George Bush personally come down
and threaten them. They say, if you don't arrest Wayne Williams,
the Fans will take this case and prosecute it as
a civil rights violation. Slaton didn't even want to prosecute
this case. I am nothing above the Atlanta and Bulton
County and Georgia. My enemy is the federal government still is.
(12:21):
It is not those people if it was up to
let me tell you something. The sheriff a fort in
the county when I was at Fulton County jail before
I went to trial, but I had my record, lot
of people thatsn't healed behind o jail. I used to
go out with one deputy who didn't even have a gun.
We used to go out there across the street from
the jail and go to the store. Now, if that's
how much they were concerned, and they say, you know,
(12:42):
we ain't worried about this. Are you understanding what I'm
trying to tell you? But a person does a crime
and the public doesn't understand it, say a burglary. If
you do one burglar in a neighborhood and they've had
twenty burglers in the neighborhood, they don't give a damn.
You're gonna wear all of those cases so they can
close the books. Because prosecutors in Georgia are elected officials.
(13:03):
They are not appointed, they're elected, and that's one of
the biggest flaws in the criminal justice system. They go
on votes. It's about closing cases. Bottom line. Who whatever
suspect they came up with.
Speaker 5 (13:17):
The you have one that left.
Speaker 6 (13:19):
That's the way it works. It was simple a matter
of rector keeping close the cases to make it look good.
Over ninety percent of the black community knows I didn't
do this and things. I'm medicine.
Speaker 1 (13:30):
But and with the.
Speaker 6 (13:31):
White community is just the opposite. It's only you know,
fifty percent of the white community because of articles like
CNN and what you have. It's a racially polarized perspective.
And the sad part about it is these white communities
find my language, don't know diddly shit about what happened.
The ones who are telling you I didn't do this
(13:51):
are the ones who know. But you know, it's just
like the thing going on with the police killers today,
and there's things in the stadium. In other words, oh fat,
they won't air about. Well, let's just play about that.
Isn't the point. The point is part of my language
just lack in my case. If those athletes have been
just any other person other than an athlete, part of
my language paying but you're gonna hear this, they would
be just another nigga to anybody else. That's the same
(14:13):
thing in this case. Are you understanding the relationships? Why
we have to tell it like this because the black
community has a different perspective on the Atlanta murders than
the white community, totally different, because they know and they
feel that their community had been slighted by the white
community who was more conservative just throwing money in this
and having press conferences. That's the whole hurt.
Speaker 5 (14:36):
The caller has hung up.
Speaker 3 (14:38):
Wayne talked rapidly during our conversation. Maybe it was a
habit formed from having to maximize time while using the
prison phone system, or maybe it's just Wayne. Some of
what he was saying directly reflected the opinions of people
like Monica Pearson and Colinda Lee. These murders were not
handled properly in the eyes of much of the black community. However,
what he said about press conferences was a little conflicting.
(15:01):
Didn't Wayne rally his own press conference at his house?
If he was so opposed to sensationalizing the news, why
would he have done that. The next thing Wayne brought
up was his attorney, Lynn Whatley.
Speaker 6 (15:14):
Well, next conference call, we're gonna have to involve the
attorney Lynn. And I want to tell your point blank.
I don't use this language, but he's an asshole, okay
to deal with, but he's an essential asshole to tell
the story because he's been burnt so many times. I
don't think people understand what Land's problem is, why he
doesn't return calls. And that's when fury is Dwayne, and
you know I've been through it myself. When if we've
(15:36):
been through not but let me tell you something. Lynn
has done everything legally correct. He's been throopped every step
of the way by the courts and prosecutory of his conduct.
You're gonna find out what his frustration is in the
case because of a connection with to Dwayne, and I'll
get it to you will be later on it. He's
not afraid of anything, but it has to do with
(15:57):
some of his family. You'll understand as you talk on that.
But the main thing is Lynn will be able to
make available for you things like the court transcripts, and
he'll be able to tell you what went on behind
the scenes. You know, he'll be able to tell you
what the Supreme Court justice told us before he died,
about the call he got from the Vice President of
the United States, you know, during the during the ovision
(16:20):
of Georgia Supreme Court thing. He'll be able to tell
you what happened on the DNA test and when they
went back in two thousand and nine to test the
two blood samples we had and then went back into
State the very next day of the state crime and
left say oh we lost that overnight. You'll get all
of that. Go ahead and pay that man a visit.
(16:40):
Don't wait on me because he's heard or you we
talked about it. But you know what Lynn is, go
ahead and see him. But like I say, don't get
frustrated with him when he talks crazy. Talk crazy right back.
Speaker 5 (16:49):
To thank you for using secure us, goodbye.
Speaker 3 (16:54):
In a matter of just a few minutes, Winnie made
some pretty big claims about this case, from involvement from
the vice president to lost evidence. I had to talk
to his attorney, Lynn Wattley.
Speaker 1 (17:14):
Hello, this is Lynn Whitely. Please leave your message. Tell
thank you.
Speaker 2 (17:23):
At the tell him please record your message.
Speaker 4 (17:25):
When you finished recording, you may hang up or press.
Speaker 1 (17:28):
One for options.
Speaker 3 (17:34):
No matter how many times I tried to call Wayne's attorney,
Lynn Wattley, I never got an answer.
Speaker 8 (17:40):
Finally, he responded.
Speaker 3 (17:41):
To one of my texts and told me he was
completely busy for the foreseeable future. Wayne said he would
talk to me and that he would provide me with
all the information I needed to see his side of
the story clearly, but apparently Lynn didn't have the time
to talk. In fact, he seemed to be actively avoiding me.
The next person I contacted for Wayne's request was Tracy
(18:02):
Anthony Spencer's mom, Wayne's sellmate. I wanted to know more
about the person Wayne's been living with the past few years,
especially given how Holly Wayne spoke of him.
Speaker 11 (18:16):
Anthony Spencer. He is my oldest son. He's been a
good kid all his life, never in any trouble in school,
not a reprimand or anything. Everybody loves Anthony, miss goodness,
his heart and he's a good person. And when the
(18:36):
incident happened and he went to jail, everyone was in disbelief.
So I said, okay, you know, and let me have
a fish fry. Let me try to raise some money
to do something, maybe a.
Speaker 12 (18:47):
Lawyer, you know.
Speaker 11 (18:48):
So I want to bot all his fish and I
sold six hundred dollars worth of fish in two hours.
Speaker 8 (18:54):
That's a lot of fish.
Speaker 11 (18:55):
That's a lot of fish. But they came to support him.
You know, he's a really good person.
Speaker 12 (19:05):
Some of his.
Speaker 11 (19:05):
Friends had planned an armed robbery, a robbery to rob
the Chinese delivery man.
Speaker 3 (19:14):
From what his mom told me, Anthony was likely at
the wrong place at the wrong time. He wasn't part
of the plan, but he was there. Besides that, I
knew very few details about the incident, but.
Speaker 11 (19:26):
The judge said at the end of the trial that
he didn't want a sentence Anthony to ten years. He
knew that he didn't deserve that judge kill and it
was I felt that it was heartfelt, you know. He
didn't want to do that, but he said by law
he had to. He had no choice.
Speaker 12 (19:46):
Anthony's in tail Fair prison.
Speaker 11 (19:49):
He started off and Waycross and then he went to
Valdosta and now he's in tail Fair. Anthony has been
in prison this summer seven years.
Speaker 8 (20:01):
How's that been?
Speaker 12 (20:03):
It's rough. I have a ten year old.
Speaker 11 (20:14):
And Anthony spends so much time with him, and it
hurts me to see them hurt, you know, cause they
they missed.
Speaker 12 (20:24):
There, but they're simply you know. Yeah, it's rough.
Speaker 13 (20:30):
You know.
Speaker 11 (20:30):
I feel like he should be out here l l.
He made a mistake, but he should be out here
to live with his life. He doesn't know how to drive,
you know, I don't even know if he's ever even
had sex, you know, I you know, nothing, He hasn't
n hasn't even.
Speaker 12 (20:43):
Begin to live his life.
Speaker 14 (20:45):
You know.
Speaker 11 (20:46):
Anthony does the newsletter in prison, and since he's been
at Telfair, he met him Lane, and I think that
helps to have someone that you can communicate with that's
there and that really understands what's going on, opposed to
me really understanding what prison life is like. You know,
when Anthony first emailed me and told me that he
(21:10):
met Wayne Williams, I was.
Speaker 2 (21:12):
Like, wow, why.
Speaker 11 (21:16):
Stay away him? Do you know where that is? He
was like yeah, ma, I said, boy, that is the Jews, and.
Speaker 12 (21:24):
I'm a child martyr.
Speaker 11 (21:25):
I said, now, I don't think he killed them kids,
but I don't know what Wayne be doing.
Speaker 12 (21:29):
Stay away from his.
Speaker 11 (21:30):
Ass, you know exactly what I don't. And he was
like kind of distraught, you know, like, and then he
kept coming at me with it, well, this person is
going to call you, and this person is this person
gonna call you? And I'm looking at the email like whatever,
you know, recently, probably about a month or so ago,
(21:51):
you know, and I could just hear in his voice
how much his attitude and his spirit had lifted, you know,
And I started listening to him. I said, this really
means something to him. You know, I can't tell him
what to believe and what to think. That's only for
me to do for myself. Wayne, to me, sounds like
(22:15):
he gives him good advice. And I just hope their
relationship is is a good relationship.
Speaker 6 (22:23):
You know.
Speaker 11 (22:23):
Like I said, I don't know too much about Wayne personally,
but I spoke with Wayne a few weeks ago and
I was.
Speaker 4 (22:32):
Like, huh Wayne waalms.
Speaker 11 (22:36):
So I called my daughter, I say, guess what.
Speaker 12 (22:39):
I just got the phone Wayne Wams.
Speaker 11 (22:42):
Oh my god.
Speaker 2 (22:43):
You know.
Speaker 11 (22:46):
She was like what.
Speaker 2 (22:47):
Mom.
Speaker 11 (22:47):
I was like, yes, I was like, I can't believe this.
Speaker 12 (22:50):
Call all my sisters.
Speaker 11 (22:54):
It was like meeting. It was He's you know, I mean,
it's like that was something that's deep, you know. And
I'm not into celebrities, you know, I'm just not, you know,
because they don't do nothing for me. So, you know,
but to actually speak to Wayne Williams, and I know
(23:17):
from doing a little research that I've done on him,
and you know, which didn't tell me too much.
Speaker 12 (23:23):
He's a very.
Speaker 11 (23:24):
Intelligent guy, very intelligent.
Speaker 12 (23:28):
I was just excited.
Speaker 3 (23:30):
You said he was a like an icon, right, Yeah,
what do you think he represents?
Speaker 11 (23:36):
I don't know exactly what he represents. He represents hisself,
you know, And I know he's been advocating to get
out of there, you know, and like everyone else, he
just wants to live his life but he's I think
he's a good person.
Speaker 12 (23:52):
Think he probably was just a scapegoat.
Speaker 11 (23:54):
And he seemed kind of weird, you know, from when
I look at the films and stuff back in the day, like,
you know, a little nerdy type, you know. But he
was smart, smart. I know, he was into electronics and radio,
you know. But it seemed like he kept to himself
back then.
Speaker 12 (24:12):
You know.
Speaker 11 (24:16):
It's sad, But I don't know. I really don't know
what he represents. I don't know what he represents. I
just talked to him. That was that brief five minute conversation.
He just told me call me, address me Ms McCain
and told me who he was. And then he proceeded
(24:39):
to talk about Anthony and how bright and intelligence he
really thinks he is, and.
Speaker 12 (24:48):
He's talented, you know.
Speaker 11 (24:49):
He told me how talented he is, and he said
he has his lawyer helping with Anthony's case, and he
said he didn't want anything, He just wanted us to advocate,
you know, for him.
Speaker 8 (25:02):
In what way.
Speaker 11 (25:04):
I'm assuming, like his story or whatever he's trying to
convey to the outside world, that he wants us to
grab a hold of that and help convey the message
because everybody doesn't listen to podcasts. Like I said, I
never didn't even know what a podcast was, you know,
And that's all he asks in a return.
Speaker 8 (25:21):
As a mother.
Speaker 3 (25:22):
Is there any part of you that has any sort
of fear or sense of uneasiness that Anthony cellmate was
accused of doing something like that?
Speaker 11 (25:31):
I don't think, because I know I don't think he
does he did anything. My fear was for like five years,
was that something would happen to my.
Speaker 12 (25:41):
Son, you know, person inside prison.
Speaker 11 (25:45):
That was my biggest fear. Yeah, you know, I just
pray for him, you know, and he comes out of
this thing unscathed and in his right mind, you know,
to be become productive citizen outside those walls, you know.
And now I'm just like I'm smiling every day because
(26:08):
I know it's now we're on count down.
Speaker 4 (26:10):
You know.
Speaker 11 (26:10):
I'm just ready for my son to get busy, get
to work, live its life, find a nice lady, get married,
have me some grand babies. You know, Hey, what more
could you ask for?
Speaker 15 (26:21):
You know?
Speaker 11 (26:21):
And I can fatten them up and feed them everything
and bake them everything.
Speaker 2 (26:25):
You know.
Speaker 12 (26:26):
I was ready for him to come.
Speaker 8 (26:27):
Home, of course.
Speaker 3 (26:29):
Tracy isn't the only one who's unsure about Wayne's conviction.
After meeting Tracy, I spoke to another family member of
a victim, Jeffrey Mathews's cousin Mel. Growing up, Nell saw
first hand what Jeffrey's murder did to his family emotionally,
and he told me his entire family doubts they'll ever
get closure.
Speaker 16 (26:48):
Jeffrey, you know, he was a very good kid. He
was very you know, mantable, smart. You know, he was
you know, playful, like to go to the you know,
the stores and stuff and you know, make pocket mining
and stuff.
Speaker 12 (27:00):
But he was a very good kid.
Speaker 16 (27:01):
And the night he went missing, his mother sent him
to the store to run in for her, and he
was taking so long to come back, so she sent
his oldest brothers go look.
Speaker 12 (27:11):
For him, and he never did return, and.
Speaker 16 (27:14):
It was over eleven months before they found him.
Speaker 3 (27:17):
What does your family think about what happened to him?
Speaker 16 (27:20):
The only thing we know is he just he back in,
you know, in ninety eighty he went to the store
and he never did return, So far as us ever
knowing what really happened to him, probably never let to know.
Speaker 9 (27:32):
Do you think Wade lives wolves and his murdered.
Speaker 16 (27:35):
No, I never do think that. What well, I cauldn't
really see him as really being any one that hurt anybody.
He was just too much of like an intelligent, wiz
kind of like guy, and he wanted to be like
known into the media and you know, kind of like
a big entrepreneur guy. And I just can't see him
(27:56):
even hurting anybody. He just didn't look that energetic enough
to me.
Speaker 12 (27:59):
He didn't.
Speaker 10 (28:01):
But I don't know.
Speaker 5 (28:02):
If he is.
Speaker 16 (28:03):
Guilty of some of the murders, you know, I would
I would just you know, hope for them to just say, well,
we're gonna just go after him for those and then
bring the right other killers to justice for the Recipe
cases and just properly prosecute them. My family has been
through you know, hell like chaotic miss you know, not
(28:24):
knowing what happened.
Speaker 8 (28:27):
If we don't know.
Speaker 16 (28:28):
Anything, they had, they had to get it over with,
They had to get it over with, and it was
just like when they solve the case, it's like the
world to stop listening. But we just really want to
know what happened and why that's about it, just want
to just get.
Speaker 12 (28:43):
Closure and what's good.
Speaker 14 (28:45):
Take.
Speaker 16 (28:46):
Well, it's gonna take the right people at the right
time to come along and say, well, let me try
to right this wrong. Just get these get these families
closed because they need it.
Speaker 3 (28:57):
If there are so many people like mel and Anthony's
mom who aren't convinced of Wayne's guilt and the only
evidence of his involvement was trace fiber evidence, how was
he in jail? Well, the FBI profilers played a huge
part in that. At the time of the Atlanta child murders,
FBI profiling was a pretty new practice. I asked Macomas
and Popcorn for more detail about the profile that was
(29:19):
made prior to Wayne Williams arrest, and I have to
admit it was eerily accurate.
Speaker 10 (29:25):
Our profilers, and John Douglas being one of them, had
given us twenty one points that we could look for
that this guy would resemble, and one of them was
is that he would be very conscious of the news media.
And also John said he would be driving a white car,
which he was. He said he'd be an only child,
which he was. I think out of the twenty one
(29:47):
out of the twenty one points he hit about twenty
of them. It was spooky. Yeah, it's an amazing science,
which I've never understood, but we had two guys that
were the best in the world at that time at it.
In my layman's I think is a social path. I
think he exhibits all the characteristics.
Speaker 15 (30:05):
Based on the profile. Basically is going to be a
blackmail released from prison, arrested for a minor traffic infraction,
impersonated at a police officer. And we got a list
of three thousand names, and damn if Wayne Williams's name
wasn't on that list, we eventually would have sent two
agents out to interview him. Wayne was on that list
because he had been arrested for, of all things, in
(30:26):
personing a police officer who were expecting a guy with
one eye in the middle of his forehead and horns,
who expecting the devil himself? And what he got was
who is this guy?
Speaker 5 (30:36):
Small?
Speaker 15 (30:37):
Not very threatening at all. Who is this guy? That's
Wayne Williams. Get him out of here, Get him the
hell out of here. He's not the killer because he
comes across as a nerd.
Speaker 3 (30:48):
Let's refer back to Jasper and Eric Cameron. They grew
up in West Atlanta during the nineteen eighties. What did
they think when Wayne Williams turned out to be the boogeyman.
Speaker 8 (30:56):
According to the News, he's.
Speaker 17 (30:58):
Like the picture to post a child for the Atlanta
Missing the murder kids. You get what I'm saying now,
Like that's when they said that mister murderschers. First thing
think about Wayne Williams. That was the bigger man of Atlanta.
Like they show us this picture him, and you know
how we be judge Midler.
Speaker 8 (31:14):
You know, he looked like yeah, you know, he had.
Speaker 17 (31:16):
The glasses and yeah, he looked like he could do
some shit like that, you know, you know how people
be judgemental, you know, really, but you know, it was
I mean, it was kind of hard to believe.
Speaker 8 (31:25):
Honestly.
Speaker 17 (31:25):
I think he could have done some things, but I
don't think he killed all those kids.
Speaker 4 (31:31):
You know.
Speaker 8 (31:32):
My whole thing was.
Speaker 17 (31:33):
At the time, it was like a lot of racial
stuff going on, and I think at the time they
didn't want it to be something that would separate the
city racially. You know, they didn't want it to be
you know, they didn't want to find out it was
some white guys or the Klan or something. You know,
they didn't want that because they knew what it will happen.
Speaker 18 (31:50):
Kind of like what was going on there with the
thing like divisive? Yeah, like you know that divide people.
You could bring in confusion and really could tell part
every thing we like, the police say he did it,
he did it.
Speaker 8 (32:04):
You know you believe the police. I mean, at least
you want to believe the police.
Speaker 18 (32:08):
Back then, though, you look at the police officers, ask
your safety net. You know, some people had bad experiences
with cop before. The most part, you look at police
as like they here to protect and look out for us,
to make sure we're okay.
Speaker 8 (32:20):
The day.
Speaker 18 (32:21):
To be honest with you, it is so much information,
good or bad that how can I say this not
it's always a beautiful thing. But sometimes with everything being
so open, I don't know if that's good because it
desensitized people way it is now, man, the world just
so desensitized. Man, Like you'll get more intention now from
going to somebody taping the recorder slapping them on the
(32:42):
street than really helping them.
Speaker 8 (32:45):
Back in the day. You see something happening, you will help. Now.
The first thing you hear somebody world star. You know
it's not for real.
Speaker 17 (32:52):
It's like shit going on to somebody holling world star,
Like really now you don't look at the police.
Speaker 18 (32:57):
It's saying like if people don't look at them, to
say look.
Speaker 17 (32:59):
At and for whatever reason, you know, it's kind of
like you kind of if the police you be like,
I don't know, you know, I can't really let me see.
Speaker 8 (33:07):
Let's look at the evidence.
Speaker 17 (33:09):
Yeah, you know, let's dissect the evidence. You know, everybody
a forensic scientists, all these shows on TV now and
all this, Let's check the evidence.
Speaker 8 (33:23):
I began asking Wayne for some hard evidence.
Speaker 3 (33:26):
I needed names, stories and leads to follow up on
or else I couldn't even tell the story he was
painting for me.
Speaker 8 (33:32):
Jasper and Eric were right in times.
Speaker 3 (33:34):
Of doubt, you have to go back to the evidence,
and unfortunately, there's not too much to go off of
in this case. But Wayne promised me that he had
big things to share, things that would shake the foundation
of his conviction.
Speaker 6 (33:54):
You're gonna get to hear from Sidney Dorsey, who was
an ex He was the person responsible men putting me
in prison. Now he wants to tell the story about
the witnesses he paid and why he did what he did.
I'm not in the theories. I'm in the facts and
what I'm saying, is there some facts that we have
from an investigative point of view, from their side of
(34:14):
the case, that have never been revealo publicly. These are
the types of things that I want to put out
and let people come to their own conclusion of You're
gonna hear from a number of people who were involved
in this case who didn't necessarily come forward, and they'll explain.
Speaker 1 (34:28):
To you their reasons.
Speaker 6 (34:29):
And on this, you're gonna have a mundands of people
that are going to say, Okay, well, let me show
you this. You know that's what's gonna happen, and you're
gonna find out all of what happened behind the scenes
on this. It'll be one of the biggest stories you've
ever done. I promise you that once you hear that story,
you're gonna say, oh my god, you're gonna really understand
this story.
Speaker 3 (34:50):
But it was hard to get the details out of them.
Speaker 6 (34:54):
You're gonna find out about all of that. You're gonna
get all of them. You're gonna get all of them.
You're gonna get that, We're gonna get all of that
for you. You're gonna get the whole deal. All of
this is gonna open up You're gonna have more than
enough background on that. I'm gonna definitely talk about that.
Y'all gonna believe it is incredible. These are things that
you're gonna learn as we talk all of that. You're
gonna get all of that. You're gonna get all of
the Trust me, You're gonna get all of it. You're
(35:15):
gonna you're gonna get a hold of you. You've got
a lot to talk about, man, So believe you're gonna
get it all. You're gonna get that. You're you're gonna
get all of that. Don't don't worry about it. That's
gonna come.
Speaker 8 (35:47):
Over time.
Speaker 3 (35:48):
I picked up on some of Wayne's stories and began
looking into them. The next thing Wayne brought up was
physical evidence that linked some of the victims to other
suspicious groups.
Speaker 6 (35:58):
Oh well, I think it's several thousand fingerprints that they
took in this case. There's not a single finger print
if the victims. Hey, if you were saying twenty thirty,
I don't have a many it was, we don't even know.
If you were saying these folks had association with Wayne
Williams and his environment, sure that would have been some
forensic governance a fingerprint for some of the victims in
a house car or some of my nothing. You understand
(36:21):
what I'm saying. This was a true witch hunt. So
and we want to attack the witnesses that lied and
why they lied under this right here, because they were
trying to get a half million dollar reward.
Speaker 8 (36:35):
Wayne seemed to be right about this the fiber evidence.
Speaker 12 (36:38):
At least.
Speaker 3 (36:39):
A Washington Post article from nineteen eighty two quotes crime
lab microanalyst Larry Peterson, who worked this case and stood
behind the fiber evidence. He's quoted saying, we didn't have
any bullets or fingerprints, only what we got off the bodies.
Speaker 6 (36:53):
Hey, you've got groups of killings. Some of them were
unrelated to others. They just happened to the same time.
You've got six or eight pieces that we know that
white supremacists were involved, and we know this for a fact,
including certain there are certain physical evidence Caucasian fibers you
never heard about. We know for a fact in six
(37:15):
of those murders. We know this for a fact based
not just on their assumption, but based on the physical
and biological evidence to finding a Caucasian fibers. In addition
to witness Deneverans on the scientific evidence. We know this
for a fact, but I don't want it to be
put out. Whether KKK put out at lad murders. Oh no, no, no, no, no,
we don't understand. We know they did six.
Speaker 3 (37:37):
According to FBI records, two Caucasian head fibers were found
on the body of Charles Stevens, but it didn't seem
to be a recurring pattern from what I could find
at least. And then Wayne brought up a homosexual ring.
Speaker 6 (37:50):
We know that another six cases were involved in a
homosexual ring going on in Atlanta, Black homosexual ring.
Speaker 19 (37:57):
It's been learned that investigators have now found this man,
Tom Terrell and questioned him today about his role in
some type of homosexual ring operated out of this home
in northwest Atlanta. That ring apparently involved the latest child victim,
Timothy Hill, and through recent findings, may have linked together
several other children on the task Force list.
Speaker 3 (38:18):
I read about this man, Tom Terrell in my research,
and he did seem like a pretty suspicious and potentially
dangerous man. Tom Yrrell owned two houses on Gray Street,
one that may have been a haven for pedophiles and
sex offenders, and one that was his place of residence.
A witness said that Heat had sex with one of
the Atlanta child murder victims, Timothy Hill, at one of
(38:39):
Tom Tyrrell's houses on Gray Street. He also claimed to
have seen at least ten other victims at the same house.
Speaker 19 (38:45):
Terrell knows this man, Larry Marshall, now in a Connecticut
jail on armed robbery charges.
Speaker 20 (38:50):
Marshall is believed to have known at least three of
the victims, Patrick Biltazar, Timothy Hill, and Joseph Bell, who
was still missing before his arrest. Marshall shared a house
in West Atlanta with this man, Jerry Thornton. Thornton says
police showed him pictures of the child victims and he
recognized ten of them, and Marshall is an.
Speaker 8 (39:10):
Acquaintance of Tom Terrell.
Speaker 20 (39:11):
Terrell lives in this house on Gray Street, Northwest, where
several of the victims are said to have spent some time.
The house has also been linked to an alleged sex
for a higher ring involving young boys. Police have been
watching the house and investigators have talked to Terrell a
number of times so far.
Speaker 19 (39:28):
Though no one revolving around this homosexual ring has been arrested.
Speaker 8 (39:32):
As a suspect.
Speaker 21 (39:33):
It's not known what Tom Terrell has told police or
just how helpful Larry Marshall might be if he decides
to cooperate, but even investigators who are skeptical about Marshall's
possible contributions to the case say this sex ring is
an important investigative theory certainly worth following up.
Speaker 19 (39:50):
These are members of gay dignity homosexuals who don't like
what the media has been reporting the last few days.
Those reports center around a possible sex ring that includes
homosexual mens, one of them being Marshall. Investigators know Marshal
knew Timothy Hill and possibly other boys on the task
force list. Hill and the others hung out here in
a northwest Atlanta home owned by and admitted homosexual. Although
(40:12):
there is no hard evidence, the task force is looking
into the possibility that some type of sex ring may
be involved in the killings. These gays think the word
homosexual has been used too.
Speaker 12 (40:23):
Much, you know.
Speaker 22 (40:24):
They reemphasize homosexual in every adjective or nouns in most
cases when they're talking about this incident, rather than just
speaking of the word sexual as I stated earlier. In
many cases when there's rape and so involved. The headlines
do not read heterosexual man. It reads sexual assault or
something like that, but it does not read heterosexual. And
the word black. You know, another comparison, when it's a
(40:46):
person who is a criminal, they don't refer to the
person as a black man, or a Yellow man or
a Chinese man. They refer to him as a man.
Speaker 19 (40:53):
The gays already think they are stereotyped and that the
latest theory involving homosexuals will do nothing to help the problem.
They're afraid that if it is a homosexual committing the crimes,
then they all will be condemned, not just the one person.
They have now offered to help the task force in
any way hoping to stop the implications.
Speaker 14 (41:11):
Clearly, homophobia continues to be rampant. People are not necessarily
speaking candidly and freely about gay identity. There is a
lot of incredibly inappropriate conflation with gayness and predatory behavior,
and particularly with gayness and predatory behavior towards children. So
(41:35):
you know, it's not a distant step for people who
are thinking in that way to think, well, certainly somebody
who's gay would be somebody who might be a danger
to children and et cetera, et cetera, etc. Although there's
clearly no real evidence for such a connection, and so
that clearly seems to have had a role to play
(41:55):
in how people were thinking, first of all, about the murders,
thinking about that children, thinking about the taboo around, talking
about how some of the children were assaulted not just
because of a kind of respect for victims, but also
because of a sense of soiling of tainted nests, because
(42:17):
of any kind of connection with homosexual activity. So like
all of that was a part of that conversation. And
then you have these murders, clearly of young black gay men.
Whether it's part of this pattern or a separate issue,
it's hard for me to understand how the murders of
these fully adult, albeit young men feel the same as
(42:41):
the murders of six and eight nine year olds. But
all of that serves together to further marginalize, vilify, shroud
in secrecy and taboo, and taint the victims and to
stomachs the ultimately the man who's accused of the murders.
Speaker 23 (42:58):
During that time period, we were not looking at child
trafficking the way we are now. We didn't talk about
child prostitution back then. And how children could have been
picked up and used for illicit means. During that time,
very homophobic time too. People could not accept people for
(43:21):
who they were, and every person who was a homosexual
was considered to be a pedophile, which is not true.
It was so disheartening to see that negativity that also
was pointed at.
Speaker 12 (43:38):
The gay community. But that was the time.
Speaker 23 (43:41):
Thanks be to God, we have grown, but that was
really very frightening. That was never looked into, as far
as I know by law enforcement sex trafficking, not homosexuality.
Speaker 10 (43:56):
But sex trafficking.
Speaker 23 (43:57):
So you know, did they look into known pedophile. I mean,
it could have been a pedophile who did.
Speaker 3 (44:03):
This, no matter how you slice it. Wayne became a suspect.
The night he was stopping the bridge.
Speaker 10 (44:21):
We had two people under both sides of the bridge,
police cadets, and of course we kept him hitting out
and then in close proximity we had a chase car
on each side of the bridge, and they too blended
in so that they couldn't be seen. In about two
or three in the morning, they heard a huge splash woke.
Speaker 15 (44:39):
Up the two guys underneath the bridge, one of them
who was a high school swimmer. He said, that's a
body hitting the water. And he looks up and he
radios his friend across the bridge. Is there a car
on the bridge.
Speaker 10 (44:49):
And there was only one vehicle on that bridge.
Speaker 15 (44:51):
The guy says, yeah, it's starting to move slowly.
Speaker 10 (44:54):
The car appeared to be just starting up again like
it had been stopped, and it was going two or
three miles an hour. Then across the bridge circled around
I think a convenience store.
Speaker 15 (45:06):
Pulls around right in front of a police car, hiding
in the bushes, and goes back up the highway to
a two eighty five will. They chased him down and
as soon.
Speaker 10 (45:15):
As he pulled off, that's when our cars tagged him.
Speaker 6 (45:18):
They got him.
Speaker 3 (45:19):
There's a lot of ambiguity about what actually happened that night,
so I asked Wayne for his account the officer's Wayne
mentions in his account our agent Greg Gilliland of the
FBI two rookie Atlanta police recruits, Officer Bob Campbell and
Officer Freddie Jacobs, and Atlanta police veteran Carl Holden. Allegedly
the recruit, officer Campbell was stationed under the bridge and
(45:41):
officer Jacobs was stationed on the bridge. And Holden was
in his car at a nearby liquor store. The James
Jackson Parkway bridge connects two counties, Fulton County and Cobb County,
and apparently at the time of the incident, there was
a liquor store on the Fulton County side South Cobb Parkway.
The route Wayne was apparently taking that night goes over
the Chattahoochee River. The Chattahoochee, of course, is where bodies
(46:04):
have been showing up.
Speaker 9 (46:09):
I hadn't even gone to sleep. I had been up
all day feeling the pictures an kid time. I was
coming from a trying to find an address off the
touth coff Promptly it turned out to be a fake address,
and one of the auditions we had back quite often
then address was no Goods house. Returning home, and as
I came home, like I said, I went south on
(46:32):
South Corosk promptly across the bridge and across the bridge,
I turned into that gravel parking lot to my right,
briefly turned you know, turn on the lights, look number.
Turned back on the road pro seated about a quarter
of a mile to what I identified as the liquor store,
which is on the left, so I picked up some
(46:54):
boxes there Boston the street. I made a call and
turned back north warner back across the bridge. Used to
get on my tweeted high. As I a fortued the bridge,
I saw a car headlights.
Speaker 6 (47:06):
Come halfway in the road.
Speaker 9 (47:08):
He full back and then he passed and turned him
behind him. He turned out that the headlights were those
of Carl Holding, the Atlanta police officers who was parked
beside the liquor store at the bridge. They followed me
on to tweeted five before hours, stop hamble the load
of bridge. He says he heard a splash. This was
(47:35):
the radio sequence one one thousand, two thousand three. During
this time, cambl said he was sweet.
Speaker 6 (47:45):
He got up.
Speaker 9 (47:46):
He walked about fifty yards to the edge of the river.
He shined his light on the water. He says he
saw ruppers and say he looked up on the bridge.
He looked up back down at the river three times,
and he said, Freddy, is there a car and the bridge.
I just heard a splash. Benny says, yes, it's coming
towards me.
Speaker 6 (48:06):
I got it.
Speaker 9 (48:07):
Dug Fia is filling that, Yeah, I got it, just
coming towards me. Stops that's the time of sequence they
testified to the court. That's the contradiction. During that sequence,
(48:27):
there's no way any car could have been born south
on the bridge, turn into the gravel park line and
turn back north. That's the absolutely hostibility that car Mine
hadn't have been traveling north the entire time of sequence.
The bottom line is there was no splash.
Speaker 8 (48:55):
Next time on Atlanta Monster, do you hear my voice?
Speaker 3 (49:03):
Yeah, So you have to go to the opposite side
of them.
Speaker 13 (49:11):
So we have the rope with a clip that can
clip on to Randy and then we have it clipped
on this side sticked into the ground over here.
Speaker 1 (49:22):
So we want to get a camera on pane as
quick as potiball. Then Candler will have his camera up here.
Speaker 6 (49:44):
We're good, up here, We're ready on here.
Speaker 8 (49:45):
Call God, I here, Yeah, thank you.
Speaker 4 (49:50):
Action.
Speaker 3 (49:58):
Atlanta Monster is an investigative podcast toll week by week
with new episodes every Friday. A joint production between House
Stuff Works and Tenderfoot TV. Original music is by Makeup
and Vanity Set. Audio archives courtesy of WSB News Film
and Videotape Collection, Brown Media Archives, University of Georgia Libraries.
Speaker 8 (50:20):
For the latest updates, please visit.
Speaker 3 (50:22):
Atlantamonster dot com or follow us on social media. One
last thing, we've set up an Atlanta Monster tip line.
Anyone with information, leads, or personal accounts pertaining to the
Atlanta child murders can call us and leave a message.
Speaker 8 (50:36):
The number is one.
Speaker 3 (50:38):
Eight three three two eight five six six sixty seven. Again,
that's one eight three three two eight five six six
sixty seven.
Speaker 8 (50:49):
Thanks for listening.
Speaker 24 (51:17):
I don't know what the belief I wasn't told what
the believed material listed younger, naive new air rebels against
a parent ass back was like Chris Krossky and lost
in the streets. Reality turned thoughts to debris and a
heart to concrete.
Speaker 2 (51:29):
Weighing me down.
Speaker 24 (51:30):
I don't know what to believe, wearing me down.
Speaker 12 (51:32):
I don't know what to believe.
Speaker 1 (51:35):
Yeah,
Atlanta Monster News
Host
Payne Lindsey
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