January 7, 2026 • 25 mins
Productivity expert Chris Bailey shares how to finish what you start
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
Welcome to Before Breakfast, a production of iHeartRadio. Good Morning.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
This is Laura. Welcome to the Before Breakfast podcast. Today's
episode is going to be a longer one part of
the series where I interview fascinating people about how they
take their days from great to awesome and any advice
they have for the rest of us. So today I
am delighted to welcome Chris Bailey back to Before Breakfast.
Chris is a productivity expert and the author of the
(00:34):
brand new book Intentional How to Finish What You Start.
So Chris, welcome to the show.
Speaker 3 (00:40):
Laura, how you doing.
Speaker 1 (00:42):
I'm good. I'm glad to have you back.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
Why don't you tell our listeners a little bit about
yourself For anyone who's a new listener and wasn't here
a year and a half ago.
Speaker 3 (00:49):
Well, I have a beard, live in Canada, and I
like productivity like some people have normal interests. But I
think people like us, Laura, were just weird in the
way that we try to opt demise the different components
of our day. And so that's what I'm obsessed by.
And so it's that curiosity that drives me into writing
(01:09):
books on the topic, giving talks on the topic. So
I guess in a nutshell, I'm an author on productivity.
I've written three books now this is number four them.
I'm so excited to get out into the world.
Speaker 1 (01:21):
Yeah, well, what drew you to the topic of finishing?
Speaker 3 (01:26):
Oh? Yes, well, it's really the fascination that I have
with becoming more intentional. And so we all know this, right,
The intention is a beautiful idea, But we don't always
finish what we start. But there are the times that
we do then, and so what separates the times that
we do finish what we begin from the times that
(01:50):
we don't. And so this idea of it, like when
we finish what we start, there was always an intention
behind what we're doing. But just because we set an
intention to do something thing doesn't mean that we'll actually
follow through with that thing. So is this idea of
follow through and that idea of intentionality it really like,
for the last ten years or so, I've really fundamentally
(02:12):
believed that it's intentionality that lives at the core of productivity.
But then again, the idea of that is quite beautiful,
But when the rubber meets the road on a daily basis,
we have to actually be able to follow through with
those things, and so it was almost the disconnect between
why do we not always follow through with the intentions
that we set observing that that really got me curious
(02:35):
about the research and what strings we can pull on
behind the scenes in order to overcome the mental resistance.
We have, the procrastination, we have the fact that some
things feel meaningless, all that good stuff that's in the book.
Speaker 2 (02:51):
Yeah, well, I was to say, I mean, it seems
like it's probably a mix between sort of these mental factors,
like how motivated we are by our various intentions, and
then just the sheer practical matters of time management, the
sort of things I talk about that people you know,
believe they're going to have five hours a day to
do something and they just aren't in their current lives,
(03:13):
and so yeah, whatever they're going to do, they're not
going to finish it because they haven't allocated the time
in their lives to do so. So I'm curious how
they what are the factors that lead to somebody finishing
or not finishing on an intention.
Speaker 3 (03:26):
Ooh, I like that you touched on motivation off the
start of the question, because motivation is something that has
always felt nebulous to me, And values are another tangential
topic to that that's always felt nebulous to me. When
I think of defining our values, I think of those
(03:47):
cheesy corporate exercises that I've had to do in the
working corporate jobs, where some person comes in and says, oh,
let circle a bunch of words on a page that
describe who you are. And there's where it's like humor
and grace and things like that. But there's not really
any research behind that when you actually dig into that
(04:09):
kind of stuff, but there is. It turns out on
human values and values. They're essentially the motivational core of
who we are, and it's this whole, essentially gold mine
of scientific research on what motivates us on a deep
and fundamental level. So from a broad perspective, there's twelve
(04:33):
main values. We all share them, but in different amounts.
So some of us value self direction, going our own way,
with creativity, productivity. I'd imagine a lot of before Breakfast
listeners are in that boat. Others values. Others of us
value tradition. Some people value power and face and humility
and universalism, which is loving and respecting the nature and
(04:59):
other people there's benevolence. There's stimulation, which is you know,
the excitement, the novelty that we can experience in the moment.
There's you know, the list goes up. There's twelve of them,
and so we all have these in different amounts, and
every task that we have to do is connected to
one or more of these values. So if you have
(05:19):
to write some boring thing, some handbook project or something
at work, this is an example I keep coming back
to because this was I have vivid memories of having
to write one when I worked at Alcatel lousen To
telecom company here in Ottawa, and it was so aversive
because I felt like it was something that I had
to do. You know, it kind of mapped with the
value of conformity almost because it was just something that
(05:42):
I needed to do and not really connect with. I
didn't really connect with it. But I happen to value
benevolence highly, which is helping and serving other people. And
so when I reframed it to mentor new employees through
the handbook project, for myself, it was the same task.
It was just the way that I approached the thing
(06:05):
was far far more motivating. So you're exactly right, that
there are those multiple levels of motivation and follow through
that we need to focus on. That's kind of the
broad level of how what does our relationship with the
things that we have to get done look like? And
then there's the day to day, which is of course
(06:28):
fun to chat about too, But I've gone on for
long enough. We'll talk about that thing about.
Speaker 2 (06:33):
You know, how a value might affect how you Behave
you tell an interesting story in the book of having
trained for a marathon. I mean not just like half heartedly,
like having gone through like four hour training runs and
then elected not to run it, like just you know,
and didn't feel like this was a disconnect, like that,
(06:53):
you actually felt like you had done the part you
cared about.
Speaker 1 (06:56):
So maybe you could well talk about that.
Speaker 3 (06:58):
Yeah, well this story bother you, by the way, I
need to ask.
Speaker 2 (07:03):
Well, I mean not in a particular sense of men,
you can live your own life, Chris, But yeah, yeah,
I mean I've signed up for plenty of races that
I haven't run. It's usually more than I don't want
to run in the moment because it's like raining on.
Speaker 1 (07:15):
That day or something like that.
Speaker 2 (07:16):
Yeah, I mean, I know, if I personally can run
that amount of you know, I've done it before. Yeah,
so I guess it doesn't I don't need to show
anyone that I can do it.
Speaker 3 (07:25):
Oh, so you're you're kind of like me in this regards.
So one of the values, and I didn't mention it,
even though it's a pretty common value overall, and probably
especially for listeners of this podcast. I know it's high
for the value for the readers of my website. One
of the values is achievement, accomplishing things, and so you know,
(07:45):
and so if you love achieving things, you shouldn't feel
guilty about that, by the way, you know. So that's
an important thing, just as if you value tradition and
you want to live a traditional life or a conformity
and you want to work in that fid whatever it is,
don't feel guilty your values. They're fundamental human things. And
so there was a story that I shared in the
book where I was training for a marathon way back when,
(08:08):
over two decades ago, which really hurts to say it
at this point in my life, Laura, but I essentially
got to the point where I was running for hours
on the treadmill in the basement because it was winter
time at the time, and I just kind of thought, Okay,
I could run the marathon now, and so I stopped
training entirely. And I know, like, it's so fascinating how
(08:32):
the way that we look at the world and interpret
the world is informed through the lens of what we value.
Because somebody who values achievement, whose highest value is achievement,
they might look at that story and think, what is
wrong with this guy? Like he was so close. All
he needed to do was wait until summertime and keep
up like a just a basic maintenance schedule with his running.
(08:56):
But honestly, my highest value is self direction, going my
own way. And so once I could see that I
had been you know that it was a meaningful experience
that I could do it. I went my own way
and got to the point where I could have run
the marathon, I was happy. I was filled. Achievement is
kind of a middling value. It's not super low for me,
(09:18):
it's not super high for me. It's kind of in
the middle. I'm not really driven to achieve things for
the sake of having achieved them, And so when I
looked at it, when I think back, I think, oh,
like that was a really meaningful thing that I did
training for that marathon, but it wouldn't be meaningful for
somebody else who values something like achievement, which I find
(09:42):
it just fascinating. So values there are motivational core, but
they're also the broader, broader principles that we strive for
in our lives, and so it's fascinating. They motivate us,
they create meaning for us, and there's that deep, deep
research behind them, which is really what you want want
to see when you apply tactics for a topic like that.
Speaker 2 (10:05):
Absolutely, well, we're going to take a quick ad break
and I'll be back with more from Chris Bailey. I
am back with Chris Bailey, author of the brand new
book Intentional How to Finish What You Start.
Speaker 1 (10:22):
So what we.
Speaker 2 (10:23):
Mentioned earlier that sheer practicality of how much time you
have available is going to play into whether you finish
what you start if you've allocated.
Speaker 1 (10:31):
Enough time for this.
Speaker 2 (10:32):
And you mentioned that people generally only have about four
focused hours a day. How does this affect what we
can take on and reasonably finish.
Speaker 3 (10:43):
Yeah, well this is a great frustration of mine, how
limited our capacity for daily focuses. But yeah, and we
all know this to some level, to some extent where
the one of the worst things that you can do
for your productivity is trying to focus on things all
day long, because you get to the point where you're
(11:04):
rereading the same email for the seventh time, and it's
just some simple thing that you need to respond to,
and what you really need in that moment is just
to go for a walk. It's kind of like what
you say, Laura. I'm going to butcher this, by the way,
but you say something along the lines of like, if
you don't take a break yourself, your brain will take
(11:24):
one for you. Is that close?
Speaker 1 (11:26):
That's pretty close? Yeah, yeah, something like that.
Speaker 3 (11:28):
Yes, it's a loose approximation of one of these great
things that you say. And the research on our daily
capacity for focus it's a bit frustrating, actually, because it
does show that we have four four and a half hours,
you know, give or take a little bit. It depends
how naturally motivating we find our work. So if we're
(11:49):
doing something that it feels effortless to us, you know,
we won't have a problem regulating our attention to refocus
on that thing continuously. But when we have to regulate
our attention to focus on something. We do have that
upper limit of about four hours. And so if you're
mapping out your day and defining your daily intentions, for
(12:12):
an example, really think and reflect on how much focused
work you have to do that day. You know, there's
some meetings that we can kind of zone off in.
Sometimes there's admin work that doesn't require our full attentional capacity.
But when it comes to the real focus work, we
(12:34):
do have that natural limit. And so this is I
think something else that's critical to keep in mind that
we have a natural capacity for being able to follow
through on the things that requires some mental energy and attention,
and so really work within those limits or else you'll
(12:54):
be fighting against them. And so there are these ways
make your work more naturally motivating by a line it
with your values. When you don't have autonomy, there are
you know, take on projects that fire you up because
you'll be able to be productive on them for longer
when work. And this is you know, the pithy old
saying find a job you love and you'll never have
to work a day in your life is true though
(13:17):
in the research, because you have to regulate your attention
to focus on caring about it less often, and so
you actually go further with the things that you love,
and so there's a lot of tangential strategies in there too.
Speaker 2 (13:30):
Yeah. I think a lot of it comes down to
how you plan out your goals. And I know you
mentioned that achieving goals is eighty percent action and twenty
percent planning. I don't know. I might even put the
planning higher because I think that is why a lot
of people don't achieve what they're going to do, is
they haven't thought through the constituent steps. They haven't thought
through how long those steps will take, and they also
(13:52):
haven't thought through how you know, doable those goals feel
to them in terms of me. I think you have
a quote that the less you want to do something,
the shorter your process goals duration should be, so that
you know, if you keep something to five minutes a day,
it feels like nothing, but you do five minutes a
day over and over again, it does add up.
Speaker 3 (14:13):
Yeah. Yeah, And that's the thing that I think people
get really wrong with goal attainment is you know, they
get the ratio of planning to action wrong, like you're
getting at people. I think have this idea where a
goal is ninety five percent acting towards it. And it
makes sense that bias, right, because I think, how else
(14:33):
am I going to achieve a goal but to just
put one foot in front of the other. But if
you're not even walking in the right direction, it doesn't
matter how many feet you put after one another. And
this is another thing that I find fascinating about, this
idea of becoming more intentional, where like you're saying, you know,
we have these these shorter term goals, we have these
(14:53):
longer term goals. We have these values which are essentially
our ultimate intentions in our life there or what we
strive to get out of a life. And it's fascinating,
you know. One of the things when you look at
the research, there's a lot of different disparate parts of intentionality. Right.
We have our momentary intentions right right now listening to
(15:15):
this podcast for us chatting on the podcast. We have
the plans that this are a part of. We have
the goals that are broader than that. We have the
priorities that are broader than that. We have the values
that are broader than that too, each taking place over
an increasingly long time span. And so in the book,
(15:36):
I introduced this idea that I've come to really rely
on in my own life in planning out my goals
and planning out my plans and stuff called the intention stack,
where it's essentially all those layers of intentionality stacked on
top of one another right present moment, to the plans,
to the goals, to the priorities, to the values that
(15:56):
we all have. These are all just different words, different
containers for this idea of becoming intentional. The difference is
the time frame and how these different layers of intentionality
in our life can work together. It's quite beautiful in
a way.
Speaker 2 (16:13):
So, Chris, with all those do you have any intentions
or goals for the new year? I mean this is
airing at the beginning of a new year, so it's
a topic that's on many people's mind.
Speaker 3 (16:25):
Yes, I really want something I find and you might
find this too, is you know, I look back on
the other books that I've put out and I think
about the publicity cycle and stuff for them, and one
thing that bugs me a little bit looking back is
I wasn't really present enough to enjoy it a lot
(16:48):
of the time. So you know, you have like in
the past, what I've done is like I've made a
list of like, oh, okay, I want to get these
points across, you know, I want to get these points
across talking points in other words. But looking at this book,
I really just want to be present in the conversation.
There's no notes in front of me, Laura, there's no
notes in front of me. I don't even have the
list of values, but I probably should. I probably should
(17:10):
have that one, so I don't drop like a big one,
but really just being present in what I'm doing in
the new year, especially when things get hectic, you know,
when speaking picks up with the book, when the media
picks up with the book, I really want to be
there to enjoy it because I personally this one feels
(17:30):
special to me in a way where you know, it's
kind of been incubating these things for ten years or so,
and so it just feels like almost therapeutic to get
this book out there into the world. So yeah, just
being present in all that.
Speaker 2 (17:45):
I think, all right, well, we're going to take one
more quick ad break and I'll be back with more
from Chris Bailey. I am back talking with Chris Bailey,
author of the brand new book Intentional How to Finish
What You Start. So Chris, one of the intentions many
(18:06):
people set is to develop a good morning routine.
Speaker 1 (18:09):
We are here before breakfast.
Speaker 2 (18:12):
However, you've mentioned that your attempts to develop sort of
an elaborate morning routine over the years have not really
worked because you're not a morning person.
Speaker 3 (18:20):
I mean.
Speaker 2 (18:21):
So it's sort of coming to grips with our intentions
and goals need to fit with reality.
Speaker 3 (18:28):
Yeah. Yeah, And that's the thing you know. In the book,
I call it Cpatne goals, because there's some goals we love.
The idea of waking up early is a really good
one for me, a good example for me, because I
love the idea of being a morning person, Laura. I
love the idea of waking up at five or whatever
(18:49):
and getting the morning paper off the doorstep and getting
a nice coffee or a cup of tea, going and
meditating and going for a But when an next it
comes time to implement a change like this into my life,
I realize that I hate rituals like this. I'd much
rather sleep in and you know, slumber out of bed
(19:11):
and then grab the paper off the doorstep. So it's
this idea of CPA tone goals that I've really come
to think of these as where often we love the
idea of a change, but we really don't want the
practical implications of that change. So this is there's a
(19:33):
great quote I think it's from and Lamont where she
wrote that how we spend our days is how we
spend our lives. I think I have the person right
there and Lamont or Mary Oliver one of the two
flip a coin. But the idea is we have these
ideas of a lot of these grand changes that we
want to make to our life, but we don't think
about the day to day. You know, we want to
(19:55):
write a book, but what does that actually look like
on a daily or a weekly basis? To write that?
But we want to run a marathon? Well what does
that actually look like on a daily and weekly basis?
And so it goes back to that idea of the
intention stack, where a goal it should be connected with
what we value because that'll be the motivational propellant that
(20:15):
we need. And similarly, it should be connected with the
broader priorities in our life that we can observe. But
it also needs to connect with the plans that we
have in the daily actions that we take, because if
it's not God help us in achieving the goal. We
need to think through all of the different layers of
intentionality so that something isn't just some idea fantasy, cp
(20:40):
a tone bontage that we wish to have and make
in our life. It becomes this tangible A goal should
really be a tangible representation of a change, of a journey,
of a story that we're going to go on with
our life. And so I think that's so critical to
keep in mind.
Speaker 2 (21:00):
All right, well, Chris, I always ask my guests on
this show, and I've asked you this before, so then
you'll have to come up with anyone. You may not
remember what we said last time, but what is something
you have done recently to take a day from great
to awesome?
Speaker 3 (21:14):
Ooh, I have one that's more recent. So my daily
not daily dailies being generous, but you have that great rule.
Three times a week is a habit. That's what I
do with the gym three times a week. I have
a gym habit. And one thing that I've done recently
is I switched gyms. Because you know, one of the values,
(21:38):
one of the twelve values, is called hedonism, and you
know some people have sultry connotations, but it's just pleasure.
It's just sense pleasure. So one thing I've started to do,
because I, you know, I wasn't enjoying the gym to
the extent that I could have or should have, is
I started to treat the gym like a spa. And
so I go there and I make sure I have
(21:58):
a bit more time. I'll, you know, make sure I
have a time for the shower. After I switched gym,
so they have like fancy, fancy or shampoo and stuff.
It's more luxurious. It's only twenty dollars more a month,
and I go more. I go more often because it's
so pleasurable. It's so luxurious. It's eighty dollars Canadian a month,
(22:21):
which is probably like fifty five US. So it's not
crazy either, but it's very nice. So treating the things
that I'm struggling with kind of like a spa is
a weird tactic, But that frame for me where it
becomes more about the heaton is the heatonistic side of
of the experience. It negates a lot of the aversion
(22:41):
that I have around so the gym. Treating the gym
like a spa, if you're struggling with a gym routine.
Treat it like a spa. By God, you're gonna love it.
Speaker 2 (22:50):
Yeah, well, especially if you're only going three times a week.
I mean that could be the other thing too, because
not aiming for more than that might be the key
to making it still enjoyable or at least something you
can talk in your life.
Speaker 1 (23:01):
So exactly, what what are you looking forward to right now?
Speaker 3 (23:05):
Oh? The well, besides the book coming out, I feel
I've plugged it enough, though, I'm actually really looking forward
to to to releasing this book out into the world.
We're filming a little bit before. I hate that I'm
ending this on a plug. I'm I'm I don't love
plugging stuff actually, but as a as a Canadian, you know,
But I'm so excited to share these ideas with the
(23:28):
world and to see that people connect with these values,
especially because they're they're like what motivate us at at
Even if you don't buy the book, think about how
the values that that we've been chatting about today, how
they influence your goals, your level of motivation, your level
of meaning in your day. I'm so excited to to
(23:50):
just shout from the mountaintop about these twelve values because
I think they're they're going to help a lot of
people out and see their motivations and the motivations of
other people actually differently as well. So that's what I'm
hoping for.
Speaker 1 (24:03):
Excellent. Where can people find you?
Speaker 3 (24:05):
Oh? Here in my office and can Chris Bailey dot.
Speaker 1 (24:09):
Com can't co visit your office?
Speaker 3 (24:12):
There? Well, if you're in Autawa, come on by. You
got to find the place. I guess yeah, Chris Bailey
dot com for my newsletter, and the book is called
Intentional How to Finish what You Start?
Speaker 1 (24:24):
Excellent.
Speaker 2 (24:25):
Well, everyone, Chris, thank you so much for joining us.
Thank you to everyone for listening. If you have feedback
on this or any other episode, you can always reach
me at Laura at Laura vandercam dot com.
Speaker 1 (24:35):
In the meantime, this is Laura. Thanks for listening, and
here's to making the most of our time. Thanks for
listening to Before Breakfast. If you've got questions, ideas, or feedback,
you can reach me at Laura at Laura vandercam dot com.
(25:02):
Before Breakfast is a production of iHeartMedia. For more podcasts
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Welcome to Before Breakfast, a production of iHeartRadio. Good Morning.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
This is Laura. Welcome to the Before Breakfast podcast. Today's
episode is going to be a longer one part of
the series where I interview fascinating people about how they
take their days from great to awesome and any advice
they have for the rest of us. So today I
am delighted to welcome Chris Bailey back to Before Breakfast.
Chris is a productivity expert and the author of the
(00:34):
brand new book Intentional How to Finish What You Start.
So Chris, welcome to the show.
Speaker 3 (00:40):
Laura, how you doing.
Speaker 1 (00:42):
I'm good. I'm glad to have you back.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
Why don't you tell our listeners a little bit about
yourself For anyone who's a new listener and wasn't here
a year and a half ago.
Speaker 3 (00:49):
Well, I have a beard, live in Canada, and I
like productivity like some people have normal interests. But I
think people like us, Laura, were just weird in the
way that we try to opt demise the different components
of our day. And so that's what I'm obsessed by.
And so it's that curiosity that drives me into writing
(01:09):
books on the topic, giving talks on the topic. So
I guess in a nutshell, I'm an author on productivity.
I've written three books now this is number four them.
I'm so excited to get out into the world.
Speaker 1 (01:21):
Yeah, well, what drew you to the topic of finishing?
Speaker 3 (01:26):
Oh? Yes, well, it's really the fascination that I have
with becoming more intentional. And so we all know this, right,
The intention is a beautiful idea, But we don't always
finish what we start. But there are the times that
we do then, and so what separates the times that
we do finish what we begin from the times that
(01:50):
we don't. And so this idea of it, like when
we finish what we start, there was always an intention
behind what we're doing. But just because we set an
intention to do something thing doesn't mean that we'll actually
follow through with that thing. So is this idea of
follow through and that idea of intentionality it really like,
for the last ten years or so, I've really fundamentally
(02:12):
believed that it's intentionality that lives at the core of productivity.
But then again, the idea of that is quite beautiful,
But when the rubber meets the road on a daily basis,
we have to actually be able to follow through with
those things, and so it was almost the disconnect between
why do we not always follow through with the intentions
that we set observing that that really got me curious
(02:35):
about the research and what strings we can pull on
behind the scenes in order to overcome the mental resistance.
We have, the procrastination, we have the fact that some
things feel meaningless, all that good stuff that's in the book.
Speaker 2 (02:51):
Yeah, well, I was to say, I mean, it seems
like it's probably a mix between sort of these mental factors,
like how motivated we are by our various intentions, and
then just the sheer practical matters of time management, the
sort of things I talk about that people you know,
believe they're going to have five hours a day to
do something and they just aren't in their current lives,
(03:13):
and so yeah, whatever they're going to do, they're not
going to finish it because they haven't allocated the time
in their lives to do so. So I'm curious how
they what are the factors that lead to somebody finishing
or not finishing on an intention.
Speaker 3 (03:26):
Ooh, I like that you touched on motivation off the
start of the question, because motivation is something that has
always felt nebulous to me, And values are another tangential
topic to that that's always felt nebulous to me. When
I think of defining our values, I think of those
(03:47):
cheesy corporate exercises that I've had to do in the
working corporate jobs, where some person comes in and says, oh,
let circle a bunch of words on a page that
describe who you are. And there's where it's like humor
and grace and things like that. But there's not really
any research behind that when you actually dig into that
(04:09):
kind of stuff, but there is. It turns out on
human values and values. They're essentially the motivational core of
who we are, and it's this whole, essentially gold mine
of scientific research on what motivates us on a deep
and fundamental level. So from a broad perspective, there's twelve
(04:33):
main values. We all share them, but in different amounts.
So some of us value self direction, going our own way,
with creativity, productivity. I'd imagine a lot of before Breakfast
listeners are in that boat. Others values. Others of us
value tradition. Some people value power and face and humility
and universalism, which is loving and respecting the nature and
(04:59):
other people there's benevolence. There's stimulation, which is you know,
the excitement, the novelty that we can experience in the moment.
There's you know, the list goes up. There's twelve of them,
and so we all have these in different amounts, and
every task that we have to do is connected to
one or more of these values. So if you have
(05:19):
to write some boring thing, some handbook project or something
at work, this is an example I keep coming back
to because this was I have vivid memories of having
to write one when I worked at Alcatel lousen To
telecom company here in Ottawa, and it was so aversive
because I felt like it was something that I had
to do. You know, it kind of mapped with the
value of conformity almost because it was just something that
(05:42):
I needed to do and not really connect with. I
didn't really connect with it. But I happen to value
benevolence highly, which is helping and serving other people. And
so when I reframed it to mentor new employees through
the handbook project, for myself, it was the same task.
It was just the way that I approached the thing
(06:05):
was far far more motivating. So you're exactly right, that
there are those multiple levels of motivation and follow through
that we need to focus on. That's kind of the
broad level of how what does our relationship with the
things that we have to get done look like? And
then there's the day to day, which is of course
(06:28):
fun to chat about too, But I've gone on for
long enough. We'll talk about that thing about.
Speaker 2 (06:33):
You know, how a value might affect how you Behave
you tell an interesting story in the book of having
trained for a marathon. I mean not just like half heartedly,
like having gone through like four hour training runs and
then elected not to run it, like just you know,
and didn't feel like this was a disconnect, like that,
(06:53):
you actually felt like you had done the part you
cared about.
Speaker 1 (06:56):
So maybe you could well talk about that.
Speaker 3 (06:58):
Yeah, well this story bother you, by the way, I
need to ask.
Speaker 2 (07:03):
Well, I mean not in a particular sense of men,
you can live your own life, Chris, But yeah, yeah,
I mean I've signed up for plenty of races that
I haven't run. It's usually more than I don't want
to run in the moment because it's like raining on.
Speaker 1 (07:15):
That day or something like that.
Speaker 2 (07:16):
Yeah, I mean, I know, if I personally can run
that amount of you know, I've done it before. Yeah,
so I guess it doesn't I don't need to show
anyone that I can do it.
Speaker 3 (07:25):
Oh, so you're you're kind of like me in this regards.
So one of the values, and I didn't mention it,
even though it's a pretty common value overall, and probably
especially for listeners of this podcast. I know it's high
for the value for the readers of my website. One
of the values is achievement, accomplishing things, and so you know,
(07:45):
and so if you love achieving things, you shouldn't feel
guilty about that, by the way, you know. So that's
an important thing, just as if you value tradition and
you want to live a traditional life or a conformity
and you want to work in that fid whatever it is,
don't feel guilty your values. They're fundamental human things. And
so there was a story that I shared in the
book where I was training for a marathon way back when,
(08:08):
over two decades ago, which really hurts to say it
at this point in my life, Laura, but I essentially
got to the point where I was running for hours
on the treadmill in the basement because it was winter
time at the time, and I just kind of thought, Okay,
I could run the marathon now, and so I stopped
training entirely. And I know, like, it's so fascinating how
(08:32):
the way that we look at the world and interpret
the world is informed through the lens of what we value.
Because somebody who values achievement, whose highest value is achievement,
they might look at that story and think, what is
wrong with this guy? Like he was so close. All
he needed to do was wait until summertime and keep
up like a just a basic maintenance schedule with his running.
(08:56):
But honestly, my highest value is self direction, going my
own way. And so once I could see that I
had been you know that it was a meaningful experience
that I could do it. I went my own way
and got to the point where I could have run
the marathon, I was happy. I was filled. Achievement is
kind of a middling value. It's not super low for me,
(09:18):
it's not super high for me. It's kind of in
the middle. I'm not really driven to achieve things for
the sake of having achieved them, And so when I
looked at it, when I think back, I think, oh,
like that was a really meaningful thing that I did
training for that marathon, but it wouldn't be meaningful for
somebody else who values something like achievement, which I find
(09:42):
it just fascinating. So values there are motivational core, but
they're also the broader, broader principles that we strive for
in our lives, and so it's fascinating. They motivate us,
they create meaning for us, and there's that deep, deep
research behind them, which is really what you want want
to see when you apply tactics for a topic like that.
Speaker 2 (10:05):
Absolutely, well, we're going to take a quick ad break
and I'll be back with more from Chris Bailey. I
am back with Chris Bailey, author of the brand new
book Intentional How to Finish What You Start.
Speaker 1 (10:22):
So what we.
Speaker 2 (10:23):
Mentioned earlier that sheer practicality of how much time you
have available is going to play into whether you finish
what you start if you've allocated.
Speaker 1 (10:31):
Enough time for this.
Speaker 2 (10:32):
And you mentioned that people generally only have about four
focused hours a day. How does this affect what we
can take on and reasonably finish.
Speaker 3 (10:43):
Yeah, well this is a great frustration of mine, how
limited our capacity for daily focuses. But yeah, and we
all know this to some level, to some extent where
the one of the worst things that you can do
for your productivity is trying to focus on things all
day long, because you get to the point where you're
(11:04):
rereading the same email for the seventh time, and it's
just some simple thing that you need to respond to,
and what you really need in that moment is just
to go for a walk. It's kind of like what
you say, Laura. I'm going to butcher this, by the way,
but you say something along the lines of like, if
you don't take a break yourself, your brain will take
(11:24):
one for you. Is that close?
Speaker 1 (11:26):
That's pretty close? Yeah, yeah, something like that.
Speaker 3 (11:28):
Yes, it's a loose approximation of one of these great
things that you say. And the research on our daily
capacity for focus it's a bit frustrating, actually, because it
does show that we have four four and a half hours,
you know, give or take a little bit. It depends
how naturally motivating we find our work. So if we're
(11:49):
doing something that it feels effortless to us, you know,
we won't have a problem regulating our attention to refocus
on that thing continuously. But when we have to regulate
our attention to focus on something. We do have that
upper limit of about four hours. And so if you're
mapping out your day and defining your daily intentions, for
(12:12):
an example, really think and reflect on how much focused
work you have to do that day. You know, there's
some meetings that we can kind of zone off in.
Sometimes there's admin work that doesn't require our full attentional capacity.
But when it comes to the real focus work, we
(12:34):
do have that natural limit. And so this is I
think something else that's critical to keep in mind that
we have a natural capacity for being able to follow
through on the things that requires some mental energy and attention,
and so really work within those limits or else you'll
(12:54):
be fighting against them. And so there are these ways
make your work more naturally motivating by a line it
with your values. When you don't have autonomy, there are
you know, take on projects that fire you up because
you'll be able to be productive on them for longer
when work. And this is you know, the pithy old
saying find a job you love and you'll never have
to work a day in your life is true though
(13:17):
in the research, because you have to regulate your attention
to focus on caring about it less often, and so
you actually go further with the things that you love,
and so there's a lot of tangential strategies in there too.
Speaker 2 (13:30):
Yeah. I think a lot of it comes down to
how you plan out your goals. And I know you
mentioned that achieving goals is eighty percent action and twenty
percent planning. I don't know. I might even put the
planning higher because I think that is why a lot
of people don't achieve what they're going to do, is
they haven't thought through the constituent steps. They haven't thought
through how long those steps will take, and they also
(13:52):
haven't thought through how you know, doable those goals feel
to them in terms of me. I think you have
a quote that the less you want to do something,
the shorter your process goals duration should be, so that
you know, if you keep something to five minutes a day,
it feels like nothing, but you do five minutes a
day over and over again, it does add up.
Speaker 3 (14:13):
Yeah. Yeah, And that's the thing that I think people
get really wrong with goal attainment is you know, they
get the ratio of planning to action wrong, like you're
getting at people. I think have this idea where a
goal is ninety five percent acting towards it. And it
makes sense that bias, right, because I think, how else
(14:33):
am I going to achieve a goal but to just
put one foot in front of the other. But if
you're not even walking in the right direction, it doesn't
matter how many feet you put after one another. And
this is another thing that I find fascinating about, this
idea of becoming more intentional, where like you're saying, you know,
we have these these shorter term goals, we have these
(14:53):
longer term goals. We have these values which are essentially
our ultimate intentions in our life there or what we
strive to get out of a life. And it's fascinating,
you know. One of the things when you look at
the research, there's a lot of different disparate parts of intentionality. Right.
We have our momentary intentions right right now listening to
(15:15):
this podcast for us chatting on the podcast. We have
the plans that this are a part of. We have
the goals that are broader than that. We have the
priorities that are broader than that. We have the values
that are broader than that too, each taking place over
an increasingly long time span. And so in the book,
(15:36):
I introduced this idea that I've come to really rely
on in my own life in planning out my goals
and planning out my plans and stuff called the intention stack,
where it's essentially all those layers of intentionality stacked on
top of one another right present moment, to the plans,
to the goals, to the priorities, to the values that
(15:56):
we all have. These are all just different words, different
containers for this idea of becoming intentional. The difference is
the time frame and how these different layers of intentionality
in our life can work together. It's quite beautiful in
a way.
Speaker 2 (16:13):
So, Chris, with all those do you have any intentions
or goals for the new year? I mean this is
airing at the beginning of a new year, so it's
a topic that's on many people's mind.
Speaker 3 (16:25):
Yes, I really want something I find and you might
find this too, is you know, I look back on
the other books that I've put out and I think
about the publicity cycle and stuff for them, and one
thing that bugs me a little bit looking back is
I wasn't really present enough to enjoy it a lot
(16:48):
of the time. So you know, you have like in
the past, what I've done is like I've made a
list of like, oh, okay, I want to get these
points across, you know, I want to get these points
across talking points in other words. But looking at this book,
I really just want to be present in the conversation.
There's no notes in front of me, Laura, there's no
notes in front of me. I don't even have the
list of values, but I probably should. I probably should
(17:10):
have that one, so I don't drop like a big one,
but really just being present in what I'm doing in
the new year, especially when things get hectic, you know,
when speaking picks up with the book, when the media
picks up with the book, I really want to be
there to enjoy it because I personally this one feels
(17:30):
special to me in a way where you know, it's
kind of been incubating these things for ten years or so,
and so it just feels like almost therapeutic to get
this book out there into the world. So yeah, just
being present in all that.
Speaker 2 (17:45):
I think, all right, well, we're going to take one
more quick ad break and I'll be back with more
from Chris Bailey. I am back talking with Chris Bailey,
author of the brand new book Intentional How to Finish
What You Start. So Chris, one of the intentions many
(18:06):
people set is to develop a good morning routine.
Speaker 1 (18:09):
We are here before breakfast.
Speaker 2 (18:12):
However, you've mentioned that your attempts to develop sort of
an elaborate morning routine over the years have not really
worked because you're not a morning person.
Speaker 3 (18:20):
I mean.
Speaker 2 (18:21):
So it's sort of coming to grips with our intentions
and goals need to fit with reality.
Speaker 3 (18:28):
Yeah. Yeah, And that's the thing you know. In the book,
I call it Cpatne goals, because there's some goals we love.
The idea of waking up early is a really good
one for me, a good example for me, because I
love the idea of being a morning person, Laura. I
love the idea of waking up at five or whatever
(18:49):
and getting the morning paper off the doorstep and getting
a nice coffee or a cup of tea, going and
meditating and going for a But when an next it
comes time to implement a change like this into my life,
I realize that I hate rituals like this. I'd much
rather sleep in and you know, slumber out of bed
(19:11):
and then grab the paper off the doorstep. So it's
this idea of CPA tone goals that I've really come
to think of these as where often we love the
idea of a change, but we really don't want the
practical implications of that change. So this is there's a
(19:33):
great quote I think it's from and Lamont where she
wrote that how we spend our days is how we
spend our lives. I think I have the person right
there and Lamont or Mary Oliver one of the two
flip a coin. But the idea is we have these
ideas of a lot of these grand changes that we
want to make to our life, but we don't think
about the day to day. You know, we want to
(19:55):
write a book, but what does that actually look like
on a daily or a weekly basis? To write that?
But we want to run a marathon? Well what does
that actually look like on a daily and weekly basis?
And so it goes back to that idea of the
intention stack, where a goal it should be connected with
what we value because that'll be the motivational propellant that
(20:15):
we need. And similarly, it should be connected with the
broader priorities in our life that we can observe. But
it also needs to connect with the plans that we
have in the daily actions that we take, because if
it's not God help us in achieving the goal. We
need to think through all of the different layers of
intentionality so that something isn't just some idea fantasy, cp
(20:40):
a tone bontage that we wish to have and make
in our life. It becomes this tangible A goal should
really be a tangible representation of a change, of a journey,
of a story that we're going to go on with
our life. And so I think that's so critical to
keep in mind.
Speaker 2 (21:00):
All right, well, Chris, I always ask my guests on
this show, and I've asked you this before, so then
you'll have to come up with anyone. You may not
remember what we said last time, but what is something
you have done recently to take a day from great
to awesome?
Speaker 3 (21:14):
Ooh, I have one that's more recent. So my daily
not daily dailies being generous, but you have that great rule.
Three times a week is a habit. That's what I
do with the gym three times a week. I have
a gym habit. And one thing that I've done recently
is I switched gyms. Because you know, one of the values,
(21:38):
one of the twelve values, is called hedonism, and you
know some people have sultry connotations, but it's just pleasure.
It's just sense pleasure. So one thing I've started to do,
because I, you know, I wasn't enjoying the gym to
the extent that I could have or should have, is
I started to treat the gym like a spa. And
so I go there and I make sure I have
(21:58):
a bit more time. I'll, you know, make sure I
have a time for the shower. After I switched gym,
so they have like fancy, fancy or shampoo and stuff.
It's more luxurious. It's only twenty dollars more a month,
and I go more. I go more often because it's
so pleasurable. It's so luxurious. It's eighty dollars Canadian a month,
(22:21):
which is probably like fifty five US. So it's not
crazy either, but it's very nice. So treating the things
that I'm struggling with kind of like a spa is
a weird tactic, But that frame for me where it
becomes more about the heaton is the heatonistic side of
of the experience. It negates a lot of the aversion
(22:41):
that I have around so the gym. Treating the gym
like a spa, if you're struggling with a gym routine.
Treat it like a spa. By God, you're gonna love it.
Speaker 2 (22:50):
Yeah, well, especially if you're only going three times a week.
I mean that could be the other thing too, because
not aiming for more than that might be the key
to making it still enjoyable or at least something you
can talk in your life.
Speaker 1 (23:01):
So exactly, what what are you looking forward to right now?
Speaker 3 (23:05):
Oh? The well, besides the book coming out, I feel
I've plugged it enough, though, I'm actually really looking forward
to to to releasing this book out into the world.
We're filming a little bit before. I hate that I'm
ending this on a plug. I'm I'm I don't love
plugging stuff actually, but as a as a Canadian, you know,
But I'm so excited to share these ideas with the
(23:28):
world and to see that people connect with these values,
especially because they're they're like what motivate us at at
Even if you don't buy the book, think about how
the values that that we've been chatting about today, how
they influence your goals, your level of motivation, your level
of meaning in your day. I'm so excited to to
(23:50):
just shout from the mountaintop about these twelve values because
I think they're they're going to help a lot of
people out and see their motivations and the motivations of
other people actually differently as well. So that's what I'm
hoping for.
Speaker 1 (24:03):
Excellent. Where can people find you?
Speaker 3 (24:05):
Oh? Here in my office and can Chris Bailey dot.
Speaker 1 (24:09):
Com can't co visit your office?
Speaker 3 (24:12):
There? Well, if you're in Autawa, come on by. You
got to find the place. I guess yeah, Chris Bailey
dot com for my newsletter, and the book is called
Intentional How to Finish what You Start?
Speaker 1 (24:24):
Excellent.
Speaker 2 (24:25):
Well, everyone, Chris, thank you so much for joining us.
Thank you to everyone for listening. If you have feedback
on this or any other episode, you can always reach
me at Laura at Laura vandercam dot com.
Speaker 1 (24:35):
In the meantime, this is Laura. Thanks for listening, and
here's to making the most of our time. Thanks for
listening to Before Breakfast. If you've got questions, ideas, or feedback,
you can reach me at Laura at Laura vandercam dot com.
(25:02):
Before Breakfast is a production of iHeartMedia. For more podcasts
from iHeartMedia, please visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or
wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Before Breakfast News
Host
Laura Vanderkam
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