December 3, 2025 • 24 mins
CEO of The Atlantic Nicholas Thompson shares how he builds training for ultramarathons into his schedule
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
Welcome to Before Breakfast, a production of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
Good Morning, This is Laura, Welcome to the Before Breakfast podcast.
Today's episode is going to be a longer one part
of the series where I interview fascinating people about how
they take their days from great to awesome and any
advice they have for the rest of us. So today
I'm delighted to welcome Nicholas Thompson to Before Breakfast. Nick
is the CEO of The Atlantic and the author of
(00:30):
the new book The Running Ground, which is a memoir
about his family and his amateur but very.
Speaker 1 (00:35):
Serious running life. So Nick, welcome to the show.
Speaker 3 (00:38):
Thanks Laura, it's nice to be here.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
Well, thanks thanks for coming on. Why don't you tell
our listeners a little bit about yourself.
Speaker 3 (00:44):
Well, I'm CEO of The Atlantic, which is an amazing
publication covers American life. It's been around since eighteen fifty seven,
founded by Ralph Waldo Emerson and Henry David Thiau Harry
Beacher Stowe try to prevent a civil war. We try
to publish smart, thoughtful, interesting pieces about the world. I
used to work at Wired. I was the editor there.
Before that, I worked at The New Yorker and I
(01:05):
run probably more than as healthy.
Speaker 2 (01:08):
Yeah, I was just thinking, those are some big shoes
to fill on the Atlantic side. Hopefully we'll prevent any
future civil wars, even if they didn't succeed on that.
But I want to talk with you mostly today about
running and your schedule because this is a productivity podcast,
so people want to hear about how you're fitting that in.
But first, I mean, most people assume like athletic achievements
(01:31):
are something that happen when you're on the younger side,
you know, maybe like your twenties, and yet you actually
had your biggest running successes as is a not so
young anymore person. Can you tell us a little bit
about your an old person? Can you tell us a
little bit about your running journey?
Speaker 3 (01:46):
Yeah? Sure. I started running when I was a little kid.
My dad it would take me running when I was
five or six, and then I kind of stopped and
ran again in high school. It was pretty good in
high school, but not good enough for college. My twenties,
I ran started running marathons, tried to break three hours,
broke when I was thirty. In my thirties, I was
pretty good. I ran like two forty three for a marathon,
(02:06):
which is good. I ran that over and over again.
But then in my mid forties you got much better.
And I ran a two twenty nine marathon, which is
quite fast, and then I set the American record in
the fifty k and then I ran, you know, one
of the fastest times in the world for a fifty
mile for my age. And so that's that's really quite
a bit different. So I was much faster in my
(02:27):
forties than in my thirties.
Speaker 1 (02:30):
And that was when you had a more demanding career
and a family as well.
Speaker 3 (02:34):
Right, Yes, three young boys, a demanding career, all kinds
of obligations in life, It's true.
Speaker 2 (02:39):
So I think people are going to want to hear
about how you make this work. I mean, in your
peak of training, like going up to a big race
that you were training for, about how many hours a
week does that involve.
Speaker 3 (02:51):
It's like eight hours or running, right, So I'm running
about seventy miles a week. Figure I'm running about seven
minutes a mile, so that's four hundred ninety minutes. That's
eight hours and ten minutes. There's a you know a
little bit extra time for showering, you know, that kind
of stuff. Juice.
Speaker 1 (03:05):
Is I hear beat juice is involved?
Speaker 3 (03:07):
I did I drank just beat us like an hour ago.
Do you drink a big, big amount of beach uice?
You know that you do. Do you focus a little
more on your diet, You focus a little more on
your recovery. You focus a little bit on cross training,
though not that much. You know, I might stretch a
little more on zoom calls than I do on most
other zoom calls. I might be, you know, testing out
my achilles tendon later on this call.
Speaker 2 (03:26):
But eight to ten hours is I guess not as
much as one might imagine. No.
Speaker 3 (03:32):
You know, this is one of the nice things about running. Right,
if you're a professional cyclist or you're an elite cyclist,
you're spending like twenty hours a week, right. If you're
a swimmer, it's twenty hours week. If you're soccer players,
like thirty hours a week running. You're bounded because you
can't really run more than one hundred miles a week
without cracking, And so there's a certain time. Now. I
also am hyper efficient about those eight to ten hours,
(03:52):
because you know, I'm COO the Atlantic. I'm supposed to
spend my job doing my spend my day doing my job.
So I run to and from the office today, like
I'll tell you how I ran today, right, So I
dropped my kids at school at eight thirty. I had
a panel at nine forty in Lower Manhattan where I
had to wear a suit, so I dropped the kids
at school. I had to get a friend to sign
(04:14):
books that I'm giving away his present, so I ran
to his house with a backpack full of books. He
signed them. I ran home, took about five minutes to
shower and change my suit, got on the subway, ran
from the subway to my panel because I thought I
was gonna be late. Did my panel, then came back
to Brooklyn on the subway for a meeting. Did the meeting,
but the meeting ended at one, and I had my
(04:35):
next he's maybe at end at one thirty, and at
my next meeting at two, and I had to do
a phone call. So I ran from Brooklyn to Manhattan
while doing a phone call with my head of comms about,
you know, sort of a strategy question. So I got
I don't know, seven miles of running in today, all
of which was like part of work, so you know,
And it was actually the most efficient mode of transportation
(04:58):
around this fine city of New York was running. So
I wore these I wore these shoes that actually I
have one pair of shoes, these Tracksmith Eliot hairs, and
they're like kind of stylish. I'm wearing if you're not
able to see him wearing a like blue suit, pink shirt.
And I've got these like nice white shoes that look
okay on stage and they you run pretty well in them,
so it's quite durable. So in the backpack at some
point I'm running with a suit at some point in
(05:20):
runing these books, but I'm just getting around.
Speaker 2 (05:22):
Yeah, I was gonna say I have logistical questions here
because at least one of those runs, and possibly two
of them, it sounded like you were wearing business clothes
to run.
Speaker 3 (05:31):
Has changed? I changed? I changed. I can't change very
quickly in the bathroom into my shorts. I'm not running
in this suit.
Speaker 1 (05:38):
Only run in the suit was when you were late
to the event.
Speaker 3 (05:40):
When that was the only time about Yeah, there, I
was running in my suit. And I'm sure there's a
security camera in Manhattan that someone is looking at the running.
Why is this guy in this like Paul Smith suit,
like sprinting across Liberty Street.
Speaker 1 (05:51):
Okay, but the others it was a quick change.
Speaker 2 (05:54):
Yeah, and then there was a shower in the morning,
that's right, that's in the afternoon.
Speaker 3 (05:59):
That was you gotta stay cleanly, you gotta stay cleanly.
Speaker 2 (06:02):
Okay, all right, So but it sounds like you managed
to fit that in very quickly. You're you're a master
of transitions here.
Speaker 3 (06:08):
I'm very good at transitions. I'm very good at like, Yeah,
I'm very good at squeezing runs in. Like I'd love
to run, I know, and if if I had more
time to run, I would be a better runner. And
so that means that if I can be more efficient
about getting my runs in, I can be a better runner.
And so the challenge to me is just finding the time.
Like tomorrow, I'm not gonna able to run. I like,
i fly to Austin at six in the morning, and
(06:30):
I'm there until I'm on like events all day, and
then I fly back and return at midnight. There's zero
time to run, So I can't run tomorrow. So it'd
be good to run today.
Speaker 1 (06:38):
Yeah, and running sometimes with a backpack on as well,
is what I'm hearing.
Speaker 3 (06:41):
Yeah, right here, So you can actually see the remnants
of it backpack, and in it I've got the sweatshirt
and the T shirt and the shorts that I ran
and so you know, it depends. I have another event
tonight and I'll run home afterwards, spending what time it is.
Get another five miles in?
Speaker 2 (06:56):
All right, Well, so that we've added up to about
like twelve miles today.
Speaker 3 (07:00):
Bad day, Not a bad day at all. All right.
Speaker 2 (07:02):
Well, we're going to take a quick ad break and
then we'll be back with a little bit more from
Nick Thompson on his time management techniques here.
Speaker 3 (07:09):
Yeah, thanks, Well, I am back.
Speaker 2 (07:17):
I am talking with Nick Thompson, who is the CEO
of the Atlantic. He is also a very serious runner,
has set a couple records for his age.
Speaker 1 (07:26):
Group in terms of distance races.
Speaker 2 (07:29):
So how did you figure out the day like as
you were looking at this upcoming day? I mean, obviously
you probably have your stuff with you a lot of
the time to seize moments. But did you plot out
the day and say, oh, that's where a run could fit.
Speaker 1 (07:41):
I mean, what did that look like?
Speaker 3 (07:43):
Yeah, normally I'll do that. I'll plot out Sometimes I'll
plot out the week, like Okay, look, it looks like
I can run. Like I have an hour on Thursday,
I can run on Thursday, right, so maybe I'll get
to work out in there. My default is I just
run to the office and from the office. Sometimes you
give a problem because you have to wear a suit
during the day. You don't suit at the office. You
don't have clean close at the office, so you have
to arrange arrange that. But I plot out my day.
(08:06):
So what I do is I wake up at six
and I look at my trailer board, which has this
is what I'm going to do now. That's what I'm
going to do today, That's what I'm gonna do soon.
These are the five most important things I'm going to
do today. Here's a list of like household taks I
have to do. Here's a list of like book related
tasks I have to do. Right And so I you know,
I'm moving things across the trailer board. I'm trying to prioritize.
(08:28):
I'm trying to do the hardest stuff first. And as
I'm doing that, I sometimes I'm thinking, Okay, when am
I going to run and what am I going to run?
Speaker 1 (08:36):
And so then then you just make that happen once.
Speaker 3 (08:39):
Then I just make that happen. And like when sometimes
I get in enough runs and sometimes I don't.
Speaker 1 (08:44):
How far is it to the office from your house?
What is that run commute?
Speaker 3 (08:47):
So the shortest way to do it, it would be
over the Manhattan Bridge, and so that's like three point
eight miles, but it's not very pleasant because you run
across the Manhattan Bridge and trains are really loud. So
the Brooklyn Bridge is more pleasant and that's about four
and a half. And then the way Siamsburg Bridge is
the most pleasant because it's kind of at least crowded.
It's you can run along with Brooken Waterfront. That's about
five miles. And so depend on how much time I have,
(09:08):
I take one of those three roots.
Speaker 2 (09:10):
Yeah, that can be a very beautiful commute at least
some of the time. Do you do this in the
snow and rain as well?
Speaker 3 (09:15):
Every day? Every day? There's never been the only time
where conditions I didn't do it was one Hurricane Sandy
hit and that was just because there was like a
you were like, it's like police warnings not to go out.
I would have run otherwise. Yeah, because once you start
to worry about the weather, then you're done, you know,
as soon as like, as soon as you like. There
(09:35):
are too many factors, right, it is too narrowly whindwing
which I can run. And if I also like wade
the weather, I would run like three miles a year.
Speaker 1 (09:43):
Yeah, well, it sounds like you're fitting it in.
Speaker 2 (09:46):
I wonder do you ever, I mean, sometimes when people
who are listening to this so like I would like
to devote a lot of time to something that is
important to me that is not work and is not family.
I mean, do you ever have any sort of guilt
about having a very serious hobby outside of those things.
Speaker 3 (10:01):
A little bit? You know, obviously like a so I
minimize the amount of time it takes away from working family, right,
but it doesn't take away zero. And I try very
hard to minimize the impact on my family. You know,
if I'm going for a twenty mile run, I try
to do it before the kids wake up. But the
cost is not zero, and so I do feel some guilt.
(10:22):
And then the way I justify it is, you know,
it helps clear my mind. It's like an important part
of who I am, and it also sets an example
for the children, right they you know, they they love
that I'm fast. They are like they give me. I
ran the New York Marathon last week. I didn't do well, right,
I didn't do as well as I hoped. Right, I
missed my goal. Everybody in the world was positive. Everybody
(10:45):
was like, good job, Nick. You know, marathons are great.
It's beautiful. What a beautiful The other cards except for
my kids, who were like, Dad, that's stunk.
Speaker 1 (10:51):
You know, they know what you're capable of. Like that
was not a two twenty nine, we can sell you.
Speaker 3 (10:57):
In fact, what my son said was bury that garbage.
Speaker 1 (11:00):
Oh my goodness, Yeah, my goodness.
Speaker 3 (11:02):
It's like the only it's like my son and David Goggins,
like the only people who would say that.
Speaker 1 (11:06):
Are they runners as well?
Speaker 3 (11:08):
The three boys. Yeah, my life doesn't run. She's former dancer,
so she's very active and understands kind of like physical,
you know, physically, what it means to care a lot
about preparation. The two of those younger boys run a
lot and are quick, good at it.
Speaker 1 (11:22):
Yeah, well that's fun when you get to go with them.
Speaker 2 (11:26):
So you talk a little bit about I mean, the
morning routine features a morning commute. Do you have anything
else that's regular part of your morning routine.
Speaker 3 (11:35):
Yeah, it's pre structured. So you know, I get up,
I like get up the kids. The kids wake up
at seven, so it's six forty five. So I'm basically
working from six to six forty five. When I was
writing the book, that was off in the window where
I would work on the book. Now I'm, you know,
doing other work. So then at six forty five, I
start making breakfast. I make them a breakfast, I set
the table in the kitchen. You know, they come down.
I'm usually listening to news podcasts then, so I can
(11:56):
catch up on the news and then til they're down.
Once they're down, I'm starting to talk with you know.
Then they come down, We're like doing homework together. We're
hanging out together. Sometimes we go to the gym together.
Then I walked them to school at eight fifteen, and
then I had to work.
Speaker 1 (12:10):
All right, excellent, Well, we love morning routines on this show.
Speaker 2 (12:14):
I have a question Nick about this, because do you
ever wonder, given that you were so fast in your forties,
if you could have been faster in your twenties than
you were, or is it sort of a mental thing
that you have developed over time with experience that has
allowed you to reach new running goals.
Speaker 3 (12:33):
No, I should I shouldn't have way faster? Okay, I
correct could run a two twenty like obviously you know
if I can run a two twenty nine at age
forty four working it into this ridiculous busy life I have,
Like how fast could I run? If i'd like moved
a flag staff and like devoted myself to running, I
would I would have crushed it? But whatever, I made
(12:55):
other choices in life.
Speaker 1 (12:56):
You made other choices in life.
Speaker 2 (12:58):
And another question for you, because I have I've run
one marathon in my life. It was a painful experience
done a few halfs also fairly painful. What is going
through your brain when you run, and especially towards the
end of a longer run.
Speaker 1 (13:14):
What are you doing to sort of keep yourself focused
at that point?
Speaker 3 (13:18):
All right? In a longer race or in a longer
like workout, or just say either one.
Speaker 1 (13:21):
I mean, I guess it's slightly different, wouldn't it be?
Speaker 3 (13:24):
So in a race I'm focused, right, I'm just like
thinking about the person ahead of me, the person behind me.
I'm trying to like run on the flattest part of
the road to put minimal impact on my body. I'm
trying to run like straight tangents. I'm like, you know,
basically thinking about my breath. I'm thinking about my heart rate.
I'm like, I'm just like fully focused on Nick's forward
motion and efficiency, right, and if my brain is wandering
(13:45):
and I'm stressed, I'm like repeating different mantras, like you know,
thinking about how my feet are hitting the pavement, trying
to like do I'm like using tricks that I know
to keep myself concentrated on task. Like that's a race,
you know. By the end of the race, I've like,
I'm so burnt, I can't think of anything, right, I'm
just like, you know, you're just you're like on autopilot.
(14:07):
You know, You're running around and you go around like
you're on Central Park South and all these people are
screaming for him, like go Nick, and you have no
idea who they are, right, you can't see them, right,
you have no peripheral vision. Right. So that's the end
of a race. At the end of a long run,
I'm just thinking about whatever I'm thinking about, Like I
could go if I had a day and I had
no responsibilities, which just doesn't exist. I would go run
(14:29):
for forty miles, right, and I would just go run
through the woods, and my mind would be clear, and
I would be like thinking about the blue jays and
the sky and like looking at the clouds, and you know,
memories would be flowing back of nice things in childhood,
and you know, I just like i'd be thinking through
complex problems, like there's nothing better than the way my
(14:50):
mind rather than that than me than the way my
mind works when I'm off like running in the woods.
So they're pretty different.
Speaker 1 (14:55):
Are you listening to music or podcasts or you're just
going with the flow.
Speaker 3 (14:59):
So if I'm I, I listen to almost never listen
to music. I listen to podcasts. If I'm in like
efficiency mode, right, I'm like running to work. I'm running
in the city from someplace beautiful. I'm trying to let
my mind go. And if I'm in a workout, I
don't listen to anything, like I'm trying to learn about
my body.
Speaker 1 (15:13):
I got it all right.
Speaker 2 (15:14):
Well, we're going to take one more quick ad break
and then I will be back with more from Nick Thompson. Well,
I am back talking with Nick Thompson, who is the
CEO of the Atlantic the author of the new book
The Running Ground, which we've been talking about how he
fits running into his life, but a lot of it
(15:35):
is a memoir of his relationship with his father, who
is also a fairly serious runner, which is a complicated
relationship for sure.
Speaker 3 (15:45):
Yeah, my dad was a really complicated man. He was
a man who you know, came from very little rose
to great heights, had many things predicted for him, and
then struggled with alcohol, struggled with understanding his sexuality, eventually
realized he was gay. I struggled with discipline, eventually ended
up bankrupt, and struggled with sex addiction, and ended up
(16:06):
more or less running a male brothel in Southeast Asia.
So you know, complicated ups and downs. Right. People used
to say, what is your what do your parents do?
It's like, Oh, my mother's an art historian in Boston
and my dad runs a male brothel in Bali. And
they'd be.
Speaker 2 (16:20):
Like what that's a conversation starter for sure, or conversation stopper.
Speaker 1 (16:27):
But he did run through this whole thing, I mean,
all his issues.
Speaker 3 (16:30):
Yeah, he you know, he ran. He taught me to
run when I was a little kid. I mean he
really started running when he was about forty when his
life was really coming undone. And this is the running
boom of the late seventies. Everybody's putting on their shoes.
He runs the New York Marathon in nineteen eighty two.
I go and watch him. He runs a couple other marathons.
You know, he loved running. He found something in it.
It was a way of him keeping the kind of
(16:52):
demons that were devouring him at Bay. And then he
and I would run together when I was a teenager,
when I was in my tw when I was in
my thirties, would go run a few miles down the road.
I loved running with him. And then when I got good,
he cheered me on as you know, as loudly as anybody. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (17:09):
Well, there's a lot to explore in the in the memoir,
and I suggest people read it if they want to
learn more about that. But you know, just in terms
of for this podcast, in our listenership, we love productivity tips.
And you are managing a large organization, yeah, and a
lot of people who are, you know, very good at
what they do. I'm curious if you have any sort
(17:30):
of productivity tips or routines that help you through your
work day, trying to be as efficient with work as
you are running.
Speaker 3 (17:38):
Yeah, so the most important thing is every now and then,
and I frequently throughout the day, and I'll do it
five or six times. I'll basically take a look at
my to do list and I'll reset and I'll be like,
what is the hardest thing that I at least want
to do, And I'll get to start doing it right now,
and I try to make it like one second from
when I realize what it is when I start, like,
(17:59):
don't check your email before you do that, don't like
do all the little things that you distract us. Like
one of the things that I care a lot about
and I try to cultivate is this sort of the
on off switch, right, like how long does it take
from when you realize what you have to do to
when you start doing it? And if you can get
that as tight as possible, that's really that's very important.
And then the other thing, and it's kind of from running,
you know, I do have this very stoic view that
(18:23):
like the way you get things done is you just
start and you don't worry like about like exactly how
long it's going to take, but you recognize that if
you don't start, it won't get done, and if you
do start, it will get done. And so you just
kind of go every day. It's like and running. If
you run every day and you run hard twice a week,
you'll get faster. Always happens, always will, never fails. If
(18:47):
you don't you run like four days a week and
you don't run hard, you won't get faster, never will,
just doesn't happen. And so it's like the same thing
and work. You know, if you kind of mess around
and like I don't want to work that hard and
you aren't that productive, like you're never gonna get stuff done,
You're never gonna get ahead. So you know you just
have to It's kind of stupid and obvious, but like
(19:08):
to cultivate those skills. And I care a lot about
practicing and reinforcing those skills. And every time I don't
do I know that every time you do something, you
build a tiny habit, you make it easier to do
it that way in the future, and so I try
hard to continually cultivate that.
Speaker 2 (19:21):
But with something like your job, I mean, you are
having so many inputs. I think what a lot of
people struggle with is you may know that what is
the hard thing to do, and you also have one
hundred emails that have come in since the last time
you checked, and many of them are going to be important.
Speaker 1 (19:38):
Because they've gotten kicked up to you.
Speaker 2 (19:40):
So I'm curious how you balance that of knowing what
needs to be done and managing all the inputs that
are coming at you.
Speaker 3 (19:45):
Yeah, so it's a really interesting question. And I think
what I do is I kind of have an intuitive
sense of like what is tier one and everything in
tier one of stuff you're just going to have to
do today, and so you know, I don't know, like
I just I just did this meeting in this check in,
and part of me was like, I don't really want
to do this right now, but like so many things
(20:07):
I gotta get done in the next half an hour.
And then I was like, no, I have to do
this today, Like we're going to have to cover these things,
so let's just do it right now. She's here, I'm here,
we'll do it. And so you just kind of are
like you're spending some time where you're in your to
do list being deliberate and you're sometimes just being reactive.
And then the trick when you're being reactive is to
very quickly adjudicate is this thing like above the line
(20:28):
or below the line. If it's above the line, do
it now. If it's below the line, not only don't
do it now, just don't ever do it. So you
kind of manage you to do this that way.
Speaker 1 (20:37):
Yes, kick it forward eternally if need.
Speaker 3 (20:40):
I mean, there are some things that are like, Okay,
I'm gonna do that tomorrow, right. I'd actually was just
talking to my assist and I was like, I can't
get this done by six I'm going to get this
done tomorrow morning, and I'm going to send it to
you at eleven am tomorrow morning. Is that okay? Right?
Like yeah, so sometimes you kick it, but like generally
it's like either do this hour or don't do it.
Speaker 1 (20:56):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:57):
So nick, I ask all my guests this question. We
always love little things that can help make our days better.
Is there something you have done recently to take a
day from good or great too awesome?
Speaker 3 (21:08):
Something like like one thing I did during the day.
Maybe maybe I flew to Los Angeles on Tuesday and
I actually I I had like to sort of have
like this. One of the nice things about writing a
(21:29):
book is that you get like twenty emails a day
from people are like this book, baby cry, this book
changed faurlish to my dad. And so I basically like
they've all like piled up, and like, in some ways
it's lovely and it's wonderful and all these people saying
beautiful things, and in some ways it's stressful because they're
in the same inbox as like the work problems. And
I just said, I'm going to spend five straight hours
(21:50):
on this airplane and all I'm going to do is
I'm just going to work through these and I did,
and I was I guess on Tuesday, and like it
has reduced the stress because now I'm kind of caught up,
but I'm closer. The lady next to me was like,
I have that was weird. I've never seen someone just
take out their laptop and go the whole time.
Speaker 1 (22:07):
There was no movies.
Speaker 3 (22:08):
She's like, I found that kind of stressful. Sorry, how
to just do it? But you know, that was It's
a little stupid, and like email is a little bit
of a trap because you can feel productive when you're
not actually being productive. But it was that was a useful,
That was good. That was today is Friday. That was
Tuesday Wednesday.
Speaker 2 (22:26):
Yeah, well if you got to read through all the
emails about the book, I thought that was kind of
fun too.
Speaker 3 (22:29):
Oh it's amazing, right, Like I got an email from
some woman who dated my dad in nineteen sixty. She
has all her diary entries and you know letters that
he wrote that she's sending me. So like this, incredible
things are coming through.
Speaker 1 (22:43):
Wow, that'll have to be saved for the sequel, I guess.
Speaker 3 (22:46):
Yeah, yeah, it's good.
Speaker 1 (22:48):
Well, where can where can people find you?
Speaker 3 (22:51):
So? I'm all over the internet on NX Thompson, so Instagram,
LinkedIn Twitter, I posted daily video every day on artificial
intelligence policy. I just posted one right before coming on.
I would love it if they go and they pick
up a copy of The Running Ground at their bookstore
or Amazon or Walmart or where and I'm around awesome.
Speaker 2 (23:11):
Well, Nick, thank you so much for joining us. Thank
you to everyone for listening. If you have feedback about
this or any other episode, you can always reach me
at Laura at Laura vandercam dot com. In the meantime,
this is Laura. Thanks for listening, and here's to making
the most of our time. Thanks for listening to Before Breakfast.
(23:35):
If you've got questions, ideas, or feedback, you can reach
me at Laura at Laura vandercam dot com. Before Breakfast
is a production of iHeartMedia. For more podcasts from iHeartMedia,
please visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you
(23:57):
listen to your favorite shows.
Welcome to Before Breakfast, a production of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
Good Morning, This is Laura, Welcome to the Before Breakfast podcast.
Today's episode is going to be a longer one part
of the series where I interview fascinating people about how
they take their days from great to awesome and any
advice they have for the rest of us. So today
I'm delighted to welcome Nicholas Thompson to Before Breakfast. Nick
is the CEO of The Atlantic and the author of
(00:30):
the new book The Running Ground, which is a memoir
about his family and his amateur but very.
Speaker 1 (00:35):
Serious running life. So Nick, welcome to the show.
Speaker 3 (00:38):
Thanks Laura, it's nice to be here.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
Well, thanks thanks for coming on. Why don't you tell
our listeners a little bit about yourself.
Speaker 3 (00:44):
Well, I'm CEO of The Atlantic, which is an amazing
publication covers American life. It's been around since eighteen fifty seven,
founded by Ralph Waldo Emerson and Henry David Thiau Harry
Beacher Stowe try to prevent a civil war. We try
to publish smart, thoughtful, interesting pieces about the world. I
used to work at Wired. I was the editor there.
Before that, I worked at The New Yorker and I
(01:05):
run probably more than as healthy.
Speaker 2 (01:08):
Yeah, I was just thinking, those are some big shoes
to fill on the Atlantic side. Hopefully we'll prevent any
future civil wars, even if they didn't succeed on that.
But I want to talk with you mostly today about
running and your schedule because this is a productivity podcast,
so people want to hear about how you're fitting that in.
But first, I mean, most people assume like athletic achievements
(01:31):
are something that happen when you're on the younger side,
you know, maybe like your twenties, and yet you actually
had your biggest running successes as is a not so
young anymore person. Can you tell us a little bit
about your an old person? Can you tell us a
little bit about your running journey?
Speaker 3 (01:46):
Yeah? Sure. I started running when I was a little kid.
My dad it would take me running when I was
five or six, and then I kind of stopped and
ran again in high school. It was pretty good in
high school, but not good enough for college. My twenties,
I ran started running marathons, tried to break three hours,
broke when I was thirty. In my thirties, I was
pretty good. I ran like two forty three for a marathon,
(02:06):
which is good. I ran that over and over again.
But then in my mid forties you got much better.
And I ran a two twenty nine marathon, which is
quite fast, and then I set the American record in
the fifty k and then I ran, you know, one
of the fastest times in the world for a fifty
mile for my age. And so that's that's really quite
a bit different. So I was much faster in my
(02:27):
forties than in my thirties.
Speaker 1 (02:30):
And that was when you had a more demanding career
and a family as well.
Speaker 3 (02:34):
Right, Yes, three young boys, a demanding career, all kinds
of obligations in life, It's true.
Speaker 2 (02:39):
So I think people are going to want to hear
about how you make this work. I mean, in your
peak of training, like going up to a big race
that you were training for, about how many hours a
week does that involve.
Speaker 3 (02:51):
It's like eight hours or running, right, So I'm running
about seventy miles a week. Figure I'm running about seven
minutes a mile, so that's four hundred ninety minutes. That's
eight hours and ten minutes. There's a you know a
little bit extra time for showering, you know, that kind
of stuff. Juice.
Speaker 1 (03:05):
Is I hear beat juice is involved?
Speaker 3 (03:07):
I did I drank just beat us like an hour ago.
Do you drink a big, big amount of beach uice?
You know that you do. Do you focus a little
more on your diet, You focus a little more on
your recovery. You focus a little bit on cross training,
though not that much. You know, I might stretch a
little more on zoom calls than I do on most
other zoom calls. I might be, you know, testing out
my achilles tendon later on this call.
Speaker 2 (03:26):
But eight to ten hours is I guess not as
much as one might imagine. No.
Speaker 3 (03:32):
You know, this is one of the nice things about running. Right,
if you're a professional cyclist or you're an elite cyclist,
you're spending like twenty hours a week, right. If you're
a swimmer, it's twenty hours week. If you're soccer players,
like thirty hours a week running. You're bounded because you
can't really run more than one hundred miles a week
without cracking, And so there's a certain time. Now. I
also am hyper efficient about those eight to ten hours,
(03:52):
because you know, I'm COO the Atlantic. I'm supposed to
spend my job doing my spend my day doing my job.
So I run to and from the office today, like
I'll tell you how I ran today, right, So I
dropped my kids at school at eight thirty. I had
a panel at nine forty in Lower Manhattan where I
had to wear a suit, so I dropped the kids
at school. I had to get a friend to sign
(04:14):
books that I'm giving away his present, so I ran
to his house with a backpack full of books. He
signed them. I ran home, took about five minutes to
shower and change my suit, got on the subway, ran
from the subway to my panel because I thought I
was gonna be late. Did my panel, then came back
to Brooklyn on the subway for a meeting. Did the meeting,
but the meeting ended at one, and I had my
(04:35):
next he's maybe at end at one thirty, and at
my next meeting at two, and I had to do
a phone call. So I ran from Brooklyn to Manhattan
while doing a phone call with my head of comms about,
you know, sort of a strategy question. So I got
I don't know, seven miles of running in today, all
of which was like part of work, so you know,
And it was actually the most efficient mode of transportation
(04:58):
around this fine city of New York was running. So
I wore these I wore these shoes that actually I
have one pair of shoes, these Tracksmith Eliot hairs, and
they're like kind of stylish. I'm wearing if you're not
able to see him wearing a like blue suit, pink shirt.
And I've got these like nice white shoes that look
okay on stage and they you run pretty well in them,
so it's quite durable. So in the backpack at some
point I'm running with a suit at some point in
(05:20):
runing these books, but I'm just getting around.
Speaker 2 (05:22):
Yeah, I was gonna say I have logistical questions here
because at least one of those runs, and possibly two
of them, it sounded like you were wearing business clothes
to run.
Speaker 3 (05:31):
Has changed? I changed? I changed. I can't change very
quickly in the bathroom into my shorts. I'm not running
in this suit.
Speaker 1 (05:38):
Only run in the suit was when you were late
to the event.
Speaker 3 (05:40):
When that was the only time about Yeah, there, I
was running in my suit. And I'm sure there's a
security camera in Manhattan that someone is looking at the running.
Why is this guy in this like Paul Smith suit,
like sprinting across Liberty Street.
Speaker 1 (05:51):
Okay, but the others it was a quick change.
Speaker 2 (05:54):
Yeah, and then there was a shower in the morning,
that's right, that's in the afternoon.
Speaker 3 (05:59):
That was you gotta stay cleanly, you gotta stay cleanly.
Speaker 2 (06:02):
Okay, all right, So but it sounds like you managed
to fit that in very quickly. You're you're a master
of transitions here.
Speaker 3 (06:08):
I'm very good at transitions. I'm very good at like, Yeah,
I'm very good at squeezing runs in. Like I'd love
to run, I know, and if if I had more
time to run, I would be a better runner. And
so that means that if I can be more efficient
about getting my runs in, I can be a better runner.
And so the challenge to me is just finding the time.
Like tomorrow, I'm not gonna able to run. I like,
i fly to Austin at six in the morning, and
(06:30):
I'm there until I'm on like events all day, and
then I fly back and return at midnight. There's zero
time to run, So I can't run tomorrow. So it'd
be good to run today.
Speaker 1 (06:38):
Yeah, and running sometimes with a backpack on as well,
is what I'm hearing.
Speaker 3 (06:41):
Yeah, right here, So you can actually see the remnants
of it backpack, and in it I've got the sweatshirt
and the T shirt and the shorts that I ran
and so you know, it depends. I have another event
tonight and I'll run home afterwards, spending what time it is.
Get another five miles in?
Speaker 2 (06:56):
All right, Well, so that we've added up to about
like twelve miles today.
Speaker 3 (07:00):
Bad day, Not a bad day at all. All right.
Speaker 2 (07:02):
Well, we're going to take a quick ad break and
then we'll be back with a little bit more from
Nick Thompson on his time management techniques here.
Speaker 3 (07:09):
Yeah, thanks, Well, I am back.
Speaker 2 (07:17):
I am talking with Nick Thompson, who is the CEO
of the Atlantic. He is also a very serious runner,
has set a couple records for his age.
Speaker 1 (07:26):
Group in terms of distance races.
Speaker 2 (07:29):
So how did you figure out the day like as
you were looking at this upcoming day? I mean, obviously
you probably have your stuff with you a lot of
the time to seize moments. But did you plot out
the day and say, oh, that's where a run could fit.
Speaker 1 (07:41):
I mean, what did that look like?
Speaker 3 (07:43):
Yeah, normally I'll do that. I'll plot out Sometimes I'll
plot out the week, like Okay, look, it looks like
I can run. Like I have an hour on Thursday,
I can run on Thursday, right, so maybe I'll get
to work out in there. My default is I just
run to the office and from the office. Sometimes you
give a problem because you have to wear a suit
during the day. You don't suit at the office. You
don't have clean close at the office, so you have
to arrange arrange that. But I plot out my day.
(08:06):
So what I do is I wake up at six
and I look at my trailer board, which has this
is what I'm going to do now. That's what I'm
going to do today, That's what I'm gonna do soon.
These are the five most important things I'm going to
do today. Here's a list of like household taks I
have to do. Here's a list of like book related
tasks I have to do. Right And so I you know,
I'm moving things across the trailer board. I'm trying to prioritize.
(08:28):
I'm trying to do the hardest stuff first. And as
I'm doing that, I sometimes I'm thinking, Okay, when am
I going to run and what am I going to run?
Speaker 1 (08:36):
And so then then you just make that happen once.
Speaker 3 (08:39):
Then I just make that happen. And like when sometimes
I get in enough runs and sometimes I don't.
Speaker 1 (08:44):
How far is it to the office from your house?
What is that run commute?
Speaker 3 (08:47):
So the shortest way to do it, it would be
over the Manhattan Bridge, and so that's like three point
eight miles, but it's not very pleasant because you run
across the Manhattan Bridge and trains are really loud. So
the Brooklyn Bridge is more pleasant and that's about four
and a half. And then the way Siamsburg Bridge is
the most pleasant because it's kind of at least crowded.
It's you can run along with Brooken Waterfront. That's about
five miles. And so depend on how much time I have,
(09:08):
I take one of those three roots.
Speaker 2 (09:10):
Yeah, that can be a very beautiful commute at least
some of the time. Do you do this in the
snow and rain as well?
Speaker 3 (09:15):
Every day? Every day? There's never been the only time
where conditions I didn't do it was one Hurricane Sandy
hit and that was just because there was like a
you were like, it's like police warnings not to go out.
I would have run otherwise. Yeah, because once you start
to worry about the weather, then you're done, you know,
as soon as like, as soon as you like. There
(09:35):
are too many factors, right, it is too narrowly whindwing
which I can run. And if I also like wade
the weather, I would run like three miles a year.
Speaker 1 (09:43):
Yeah, well, it sounds like you're fitting it in.
Speaker 2 (09:46):
I wonder do you ever, I mean, sometimes when people
who are listening to this so like I would like
to devote a lot of time to something that is
important to me that is not work and is not family.
I mean, do you ever have any sort of guilt
about having a very serious hobby outside of those things.
Speaker 3 (10:01):
A little bit? You know, obviously like a so I
minimize the amount of time it takes away from working family, right,
but it doesn't take away zero. And I try very
hard to minimize the impact on my family. You know,
if I'm going for a twenty mile run, I try
to do it before the kids wake up. But the
cost is not zero, and so I do feel some guilt.
(10:22):
And then the way I justify it is, you know,
it helps clear my mind. It's like an important part
of who I am, and it also sets an example
for the children, right they you know, they they love
that I'm fast. They are like they give me. I
ran the New York Marathon last week. I didn't do well, right,
I didn't do as well as I hoped. Right, I
missed my goal. Everybody in the world was positive. Everybody
(10:45):
was like, good job, Nick. You know, marathons are great.
It's beautiful. What a beautiful The other cards except for
my kids, who were like, Dad, that's stunk.
Speaker 1 (10:51):
You know, they know what you're capable of. Like that
was not a two twenty nine, we can sell you.
Speaker 3 (10:57):
In fact, what my son said was bury that garbage.
Speaker 1 (11:00):
Oh my goodness, Yeah, my goodness.
Speaker 3 (11:02):
It's like the only it's like my son and David Goggins,
like the only people who would say that.
Speaker 1 (11:06):
Are they runners as well?
Speaker 3 (11:08):
The three boys. Yeah, my life doesn't run. She's former dancer,
so she's very active and understands kind of like physical,
you know, physically, what it means to care a lot
about preparation. The two of those younger boys run a
lot and are quick, good at it.
Speaker 1 (11:22):
Yeah, well that's fun when you get to go with them.
Speaker 2 (11:26):
So you talk a little bit about I mean, the
morning routine features a morning commute. Do you have anything
else that's regular part of your morning routine.
Speaker 3 (11:35):
Yeah, it's pre structured. So you know, I get up,
I like get up the kids. The kids wake up
at seven, so it's six forty five. So I'm basically
working from six to six forty five. When I was
writing the book, that was off in the window where
I would work on the book. Now I'm, you know,
doing other work. So then at six forty five, I
start making breakfast. I make them a breakfast, I set
the table in the kitchen. You know, they come down.
I'm usually listening to news podcasts then, so I can
(11:56):
catch up on the news and then til they're down.
Once they're down, I'm starting to talk with you know.
Then they come down, We're like doing homework together. We're
hanging out together. Sometimes we go to the gym together.
Then I walked them to school at eight fifteen, and
then I had to work.
Speaker 1 (12:10):
All right, excellent, Well, we love morning routines on this show.
Speaker 2 (12:14):
I have a question Nick about this, because do you
ever wonder, given that you were so fast in your forties,
if you could have been faster in your twenties than
you were, or is it sort of a mental thing
that you have developed over time with experience that has
allowed you to reach new running goals.
Speaker 3 (12:33):
No, I should I shouldn't have way faster? Okay, I
correct could run a two twenty like obviously you know
if I can run a two twenty nine at age
forty four working it into this ridiculous busy life I have,
Like how fast could I run? If i'd like moved
a flag staff and like devoted myself to running, I
would I would have crushed it? But whatever, I made
(12:55):
other choices in life.
Speaker 1 (12:56):
You made other choices in life.
Speaker 2 (12:58):
And another question for you, because I have I've run
one marathon in my life. It was a painful experience
done a few halfs also fairly painful. What is going
through your brain when you run, and especially towards the
end of a longer run.
Speaker 1 (13:14):
What are you doing to sort of keep yourself focused
at that point?
Speaker 3 (13:18):
All right? In a longer race or in a longer
like workout, or just say either one.
Speaker 1 (13:21):
I mean, I guess it's slightly different, wouldn't it be?
Speaker 3 (13:24):
So in a race I'm focused, right, I'm just like
thinking about the person ahead of me, the person behind me.
I'm trying to like run on the flattest part of
the road to put minimal impact on my body. I'm
trying to run like straight tangents. I'm like, you know,
basically thinking about my breath. I'm thinking about my heart rate.
I'm like, I'm just like fully focused on Nick's forward
motion and efficiency, right, and if my brain is wandering
(13:45):
and I'm stressed, I'm like repeating different mantras, like you know,
thinking about how my feet are hitting the pavement, trying
to like do I'm like using tricks that I know
to keep myself concentrated on task. Like that's a race,
you know. By the end of the race, I've like,
I'm so burnt, I can't think of anything, right, I'm
just like, you know, you're just you're like on autopilot.
(14:07):
You know, You're running around and you go around like
you're on Central Park South and all these people are
screaming for him, like go Nick, and you have no
idea who they are, right, you can't see them, right,
you have no peripheral vision. Right. So that's the end
of a race. At the end of a long run,
I'm just thinking about whatever I'm thinking about, Like I
could go if I had a day and I had
no responsibilities, which just doesn't exist. I would go run
(14:29):
for forty miles, right, and I would just go run
through the woods, and my mind would be clear, and
I would be like thinking about the blue jays and
the sky and like looking at the clouds, and you know,
memories would be flowing back of nice things in childhood,
and you know, I just like i'd be thinking through
complex problems, like there's nothing better than the way my
(14:50):
mind rather than that than me than the way my
mind works when I'm off like running in the woods.
So they're pretty different.
Speaker 1 (14:55):
Are you listening to music or podcasts or you're just
going with the flow.
Speaker 3 (14:59):
So if I'm I, I listen to almost never listen
to music. I listen to podcasts. If I'm in like
efficiency mode, right, I'm like running to work. I'm running
in the city from someplace beautiful. I'm trying to let
my mind go. And if I'm in a workout, I
don't listen to anything, like I'm trying to learn about
my body.
Speaker 1 (15:13):
I got it all right.
Speaker 2 (15:14):
Well, we're going to take one more quick ad break
and then I will be back with more from Nick Thompson. Well,
I am back talking with Nick Thompson, who is the
CEO of the Atlantic the author of the new book
The Running Ground, which we've been talking about how he
fits running into his life, but a lot of it
(15:35):
is a memoir of his relationship with his father, who
is also a fairly serious runner, which is a complicated
relationship for sure.
Speaker 3 (15:45):
Yeah, my dad was a really complicated man. He was
a man who you know, came from very little rose
to great heights, had many things predicted for him, and
then struggled with alcohol, struggled with understanding his sexuality, eventually
realized he was gay. I struggled with discipline, eventually ended
up bankrupt, and struggled with sex addiction, and ended up
(16:06):
more or less running a male brothel in Southeast Asia.
So you know, complicated ups and downs. Right. People used
to say, what is your what do your parents do?
It's like, Oh, my mother's an art historian in Boston
and my dad runs a male brothel in Bali. And
they'd be.
Speaker 2 (16:20):
Like what that's a conversation starter for sure, or conversation stopper.
Speaker 1 (16:27):
But he did run through this whole thing, I mean,
all his issues.
Speaker 3 (16:30):
Yeah, he you know, he ran. He taught me to
run when I was a little kid. I mean he
really started running when he was about forty when his
life was really coming undone. And this is the running
boom of the late seventies. Everybody's putting on their shoes.
He runs the New York Marathon in nineteen eighty two.
I go and watch him. He runs a couple other marathons.
You know, he loved running. He found something in it.
It was a way of him keeping the kind of
(16:52):
demons that were devouring him at Bay. And then he
and I would run together when I was a teenager,
when I was in my tw when I was in
my thirties, would go run a few miles down the road.
I loved running with him. And then when I got good,
he cheered me on as you know, as loudly as anybody. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (17:09):
Well, there's a lot to explore in the in the memoir,
and I suggest people read it if they want to
learn more about that. But you know, just in terms
of for this podcast, in our listenership, we love productivity tips.
And you are managing a large organization, yeah, and a
lot of people who are, you know, very good at
what they do. I'm curious if you have any sort
(17:30):
of productivity tips or routines that help you through your
work day, trying to be as efficient with work as
you are running.
Speaker 3 (17:38):
Yeah, so the most important thing is every now and then,
and I frequently throughout the day, and I'll do it
five or six times. I'll basically take a look at
my to do list and I'll reset and I'll be like,
what is the hardest thing that I at least want
to do, And I'll get to start doing it right now,
and I try to make it like one second from
when I realize what it is when I start, like,
(17:59):
don't check your email before you do that, don't like
do all the little things that you distract us. Like
one of the things that I care a lot about
and I try to cultivate is this sort of the
on off switch, right, like how long does it take
from when you realize what you have to do to
when you start doing it? And if you can get
that as tight as possible, that's really that's very important.
And then the other thing, and it's kind of from running,
you know, I do have this very stoic view that
(18:23):
like the way you get things done is you just
start and you don't worry like about like exactly how
long it's going to take, but you recognize that if
you don't start, it won't get done, and if you
do start, it will get done. And so you just
kind of go every day. It's like and running. If
you run every day and you run hard twice a week,
you'll get faster. Always happens, always will, never fails. If
(18:47):
you don't you run like four days a week and
you don't run hard, you won't get faster, never will,
just doesn't happen. And so it's like the same thing
and work. You know, if you kind of mess around
and like I don't want to work that hard and
you aren't that productive, like you're never gonna get stuff done,
You're never gonna get ahead. So you know you just
have to It's kind of stupid and obvious, but like
(19:08):
to cultivate those skills. And I care a lot about
practicing and reinforcing those skills. And every time I don't
do I know that every time you do something, you
build a tiny habit, you make it easier to do
it that way in the future, and so I try
hard to continually cultivate that.
Speaker 2 (19:21):
But with something like your job, I mean, you are
having so many inputs. I think what a lot of
people struggle with is you may know that what is
the hard thing to do, and you also have one
hundred emails that have come in since the last time
you checked, and many of them are going to be important.
Speaker 1 (19:38):
Because they've gotten kicked up to you.
Speaker 2 (19:40):
So I'm curious how you balance that of knowing what
needs to be done and managing all the inputs that
are coming at you.
Speaker 3 (19:45):
Yeah, so it's a really interesting question. And I think
what I do is I kind of have an intuitive
sense of like what is tier one and everything in
tier one of stuff you're just going to have to
do today, and so you know, I don't know, like
I just I just did this meeting in this check in,
and part of me was like, I don't really want
to do this right now, but like so many things
(20:07):
I gotta get done in the next half an hour.
And then I was like, no, I have to do
this today, Like we're going to have to cover these things,
so let's just do it right now. She's here, I'm here,
we'll do it. And so you just kind of are
like you're spending some time where you're in your to
do list being deliberate and you're sometimes just being reactive.
And then the trick when you're being reactive is to
very quickly adjudicate is this thing like above the line
(20:28):
or below the line. If it's above the line, do
it now. If it's below the line, not only don't
do it now, just don't ever do it. So you
kind of manage you to do this that way.
Speaker 1 (20:37):
Yes, kick it forward eternally if need.
Speaker 3 (20:40):
I mean, there are some things that are like, Okay,
I'm gonna do that tomorrow, right. I'd actually was just
talking to my assist and I was like, I can't
get this done by six I'm going to get this
done tomorrow morning, and I'm going to send it to
you at eleven am tomorrow morning. Is that okay? Right?
Like yeah, so sometimes you kick it, but like generally
it's like either do this hour or don't do it.
Speaker 1 (20:56):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:57):
So nick, I ask all my guests this question. We
always love little things that can help make our days better.
Is there something you have done recently to take a
day from good or great too awesome?
Speaker 3 (21:08):
Something like like one thing I did during the day.
Maybe maybe I flew to Los Angeles on Tuesday and
I actually I I had like to sort of have
like this. One of the nice things about writing a
(21:29):
book is that you get like twenty emails a day
from people are like this book, baby cry, this book
changed faurlish to my dad. And so I basically like
they've all like piled up, and like, in some ways
it's lovely and it's wonderful and all these people saying
beautiful things, and in some ways it's stressful because they're
in the same inbox as like the work problems. And
I just said, I'm going to spend five straight hours
(21:50):
on this airplane and all I'm going to do is
I'm just going to work through these and I did,
and I was I guess on Tuesday, and like it
has reduced the stress because now I'm kind of caught up,
but I'm closer. The lady next to me was like,
I have that was weird. I've never seen someone just
take out their laptop and go the whole time.
Speaker 1 (22:07):
There was no movies.
Speaker 3 (22:08):
She's like, I found that kind of stressful. Sorry, how
to just do it? But you know, that was It's
a little stupid, and like email is a little bit
of a trap because you can feel productive when you're
not actually being productive. But it was that was a useful,
That was good. That was today is Friday. That was
Tuesday Wednesday.
Speaker 2 (22:26):
Yeah, well if you got to read through all the
emails about the book, I thought that was kind of
fun too.
Speaker 3 (22:29):
Oh it's amazing, right, Like I got an email from
some woman who dated my dad in nineteen sixty. She
has all her diary entries and you know letters that
he wrote that she's sending me. So like this, incredible
things are coming through.
Speaker 1 (22:43):
Wow, that'll have to be saved for the sequel, I guess.
Speaker 3 (22:46):
Yeah, yeah, it's good.
Speaker 1 (22:48):
Well, where can where can people find you?
Speaker 3 (22:51):
So? I'm all over the internet on NX Thompson, so Instagram,
LinkedIn Twitter, I posted daily video every day on artificial
intelligence policy. I just posted one right before coming on.
I would love it if they go and they pick
up a copy of The Running Ground at their bookstore
or Amazon or Walmart or where and I'm around awesome.
Speaker 2 (23:11):
Well, Nick, thank you so much for joining us. Thank
you to everyone for listening. If you have feedback about
this or any other episode, you can always reach me
at Laura at Laura vandercam dot com. In the meantime,
this is Laura. Thanks for listening, and here's to making
the most of our time. Thanks for listening to Before Breakfast.
(23:35):
If you've got questions, ideas, or feedback, you can reach
me at Laura at Laura vandercam dot com. Before Breakfast
is a production of iHeartMedia. For more podcasts from iHeartMedia,
please visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you
(23:57):
listen to your favorite shows.
Before Breakfast News
Host
Laura Vanderkam
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