August 20, 2025 • 26 mins
Charlie Gilkey, owner of Productive Flourishing, shares how to get the important things done
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
Welcome to Before Breakfast, a production of iHeartRadio. Good Morning.
This is Laura. Welcome to the Before Breakfast podcast. Today's
episode is going to be a longer one part of
the theories where I interview fascinating people about how they
take their days from great to awesome and any advice
(00:24):
they have for the rest of us. So today I
am delighted to welcome Charlie Guilkey to Before Breakfast. Charlie
is the owner of Productive Flourishing. He is also the
author of the book's Team Habits and Start Finishing. So Charlie,
welcome to the show.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
Laura, thanks so much for having me. I'm excited to
be here today.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
Yeah, well, why don't you tell our listeners a little
bit about yourself?
Speaker 2 (00:45):
So I'll try to keep this brief. I am one
of those polymathic folks that like fall in a lot
of holes and figure out how I fell into it
and tell people how not to do that and then
get back out of it. You know, I've been I'm
kind of a dinosaur now on the only Internet. Turns out,
been doing this since the mid two thousands, you know,
writing about a variety of things from personal productivity to
(01:08):
teaming better to leading better, and so the span of
my work actually goes through all of those, and it
may or may not come up today given the format
of the show. But at heart, I'm more of a
philosopher figuring things out than an entrepreneur or sort of
writer in that sort of way. So most of this
sort of stuff is just me grappling with paradoxes and
(01:32):
hard problems and trying to make sense of it all.
Speaker 1 (01:35):
Yeah, well, how did you land in this field of productivity?
Speaker 2 (01:38):
Though?
Speaker 1 (01:39):
I mean, one can follow all sorts of rabbit holes,
and I want maybe you can weave into this because
I understand you also had a military career before all
this as well. I wonder if that had any anything
to do with all this.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
Well, that was very definitely how I got into this.
So I deployed in Supportive Operation I RACKI Freedom in
two thousand and four and two thousand and five, and
I was a logistics officer, and by the end of
my tour, I was, you know, the plans officer and
coordinating like lots of convoy movements in the theater, right,
And so I'd gotten really good at doing big things
(02:11):
and getting good stuff done in in tight timeframes. But
then I came back and got back into grad school.
So I'm a near PhD in philosophy, and after about
about a semester or two, I was like, you know,
here's the problem. Like I can do all this really
great stuff on the military side of things, but this
five thousand word essays kick to my butt, like what
(02:32):
is going on here? And so, like any good scholar
and officer would do, I was like, I'm not the
only person that has this problem, Like, surely someone else
has figured this out. So I started reading you know,
the classics the seven habits that getting things done, and
found that I was doing so much work translating them
for someone who was a polymathic creative person that I
(02:54):
was like, you know what, I'm just going to start
sharing this sort of stuff with other people. So, like
any good you know, you know, old millennial or young
gen X or what do I started a blog about it, right,
And so started writing about it, and you know, started
it really started helping people, and so more and more
people started asking me like, hey, will you help me
with my team, will you help me with my own
personal productivity? Will you help me in my business? And
(03:15):
it took off from there. So where I am now
was nowhere on the map in the mid two thousands, Like,
I had no idea that I could do it or
people like me could do it, And so yeah, it
just has been this emergent, fascinating adventure. Then I'm still
figuring out as go along.
Speaker 1 (03:31):
Yeah. Absolutely, Well you said something interesting there. You use
the phrase personal productivity, and I understand from some things
you've written that you say that's a bit of a misnomer,
that productivity is kind of more of a team sport.
I mean, certainly that's the case, and you're, you know,
doing leading a lot of people in the military, for instance,
But that's the case in other context as well.
Speaker 2 (03:50):
Yeah, it really is. And so unless you are you know,
Henry David throw living on Walding Pond or something like that,
you work with other people, well, you live with other people.
And fundamentally, productivity, in my view, is about becoming the
best version of yourself for thriving in the way that's
uniquely you, right, And to thrive you have to do
(04:11):
that in a social, economic, and political context, right, And
so I think so much of the personal productivity conversation
when people come to us, like people are taking a
lot of onus on themselves to sort of adopt a
hero complex that their own actions will change a lot
of things. But the reality is working and learning how
(04:33):
to work in teams, learning how to lead teams, learning
how to work with your family is actually where the
secret sauce of thriving and productivity really is.
Speaker 1 (04:42):
Yeah, it's funny. Even throw I believe was having his
mom do his laundry or.
Speaker 2 (04:47):
Something like that. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:50):
Yeah, yeah, well so with productivity, you know, another topic
you've you've talked about is like time blocking and the
different types of blocks people might put into their days.
So I remember reading something about like focus blocks and
administration blocks and social blocks. I mean, because those are
you know, also we do and recovery blocks. Let's talk
(05:11):
about those.
Speaker 2 (05:12):
Yeah, so thanks for bringing that up. So a focus
block is you know, if you're familiar with cow Newport's work,
you might call it a deep work block, but it's
really that block of time where you focus on one
thing at a time and really worked that third. Now,
the misnomber or the misconception people have is that they
can only do that one thing. So it's like I
can only be staring at the screen writing for that
(05:32):
amount of time. It's like, no, it's really all of
the processes that support that. So if you need to
get coffee and go to the bathroom make out lines,
that's still part of the block. And usually these blocks
are ninety to one hundred and twenty minutes long, because
that's really how long it takes to get into something
and make some substantial progress and then get out smoothly, insanely, right,
So ninety to one hundred and twenty minutes. There, social
(05:54):
blocks are what you are. What we're talking about. There
is like times in which you're open, available and sort
of in a good place to be peopling, right, And
that's not a universal thing. Some people are not. I
don't talk to them in the morning. Some people are
don't talk to them after three thirty, so you kind
of kind of know that. And again those are ninety
to one hundred and twenty minutes because what people forget
(06:16):
about is for any sort of one hour meeting, there's
about fifteen minutes ahead of time where you're sinking and
transitioning and getting into it, and then there's almost always
admin that comes on the back end of it that
you need to sort of process and get clear with right,
And if you don't schedule that or you don't think
about it that way, you end up with this wall
of admin and loose thoughts and scatteredness because you didn't
(06:40):
actually contain that time right. Admin blocks what they sound
like is where you're doing the emails, you're making the
quick phone calls, you're doing those types of things. Those
are thirty to sixty minutes long. Because one, most of
us don't want to spend all afternoon doing them, and
you'll start to rebel and jump to social media or
whatever your distraction is. But also it helps you focus
on what are the key things that I need to
(07:02):
be done and be proactive about it. Last, but not least,
are recovery blocks. So, Laura, when I started this gig,
I just assumed people would schedule recovery blocks and schedule
downtime and schedule stretch breaks and lunch. But then we've
done the work, you and I have done the work.
You know that's not happening. So it's like, okay, people,
let's make the obvious explicit. You need a recovery block. Now.
(07:23):
The thing about recovery blocks is that there's no set
amount of time and there's no set activity. It's what
it does for you that matters. So Laura might think
that CrossFit is recovery for her. Charlie does not.
Speaker 1 (07:37):
Laura doesn't think that, Okay.
Speaker 2 (07:39):
Well, you're the superstar here, so I have to build
up this myth that you're this superhuman. Right, so I'm
playing along, right, you know. But Laura might think, Charlie
might think, actually, just sitting down and outlining for five
minutes is a recovery block, just to get things out
of my brain. Right, So it doesn't matter what the
activity is, is what it does for you that matters.
And when you really think about time blocking, you have
(08:01):
to balance these in a way that fits your internal
and external demands and requirements and what fits your aspirations.
And what I'll say real quick is the limiting factor
to career and personal growth are going to be how
many focus blocks you have, because that's where you do
the work that matters most. And if you have zero
(08:23):
or too few, you're not going to be doing those things,
and you're going to get caught on that at on
that wheel where you're just getting through and you're getting by,
but you're not really getting ahead.
Speaker 1 (08:33):
Yeah. Well, I'm curious what are your recovery blocks, Like,
what do you do to rejuvenate yourself.
Speaker 2 (08:40):
I have a coffee shop that's about point nine miles away,
so I'll walk down to the coffee shop and get coffee,
and it's a forcing function for me to get away
from screens. I ride motorcycles because when I'm riding motorcycles,
I can't do anything but ride motorcycles, right, one hopes
I do. I have a like a rucksack that I'll
walk around and play video games, sort of mindless video
(09:02):
games that don't require a lot of thinking. Reading. I
have to be careful about writing, because writing is one
of those things where it very quickly turns from like
a soothing journalinge activity to all of a sudden, I've
been braining for three hours and it's backfired on me. Right, yeah,
so hiking outdoor stuff usually. The rule for me is
all my recovery blocks are away from screens as much
(09:25):
as possible in nature and as much as possible integrating movement.
Speaker 1 (09:30):
Excellent, excellent. All right, We're going to take a quick
ad break and then I'll be back with more from
Charlie Gilkey. Well, I am back talking with Charlie Gilkey,
who is the owner of Productive Flourishing. So I want
to talk with you a little bit about to do lists.
(09:51):
I think you have talked about how people often get
to do lists wrong. So maybe we can talk a
little bit about the problems and then how we can
we can solve those problems.
Speaker 2 (10:02):
Oh, the many problems of a to do list. I'm
going to start with some non obvious ones. Y'all use
a verb noun construct in your to do list, Like,
start it with a verb and have some now noun
on it. So don't just be like podcast podcast, What
what do I do with that podcast?
Speaker 1 (10:20):
Right?
Speaker 2 (10:20):
Yeah? Start the podcast, record, podcast, edit, podcast, whatever that is.
Don't just be like Jane, what are you doing with Jane?
Is it call Jane? Walk with Jane's like put a
verb in front of those And that's one of the
key things people do. Like when I see a list
someone's to do list and it's just a bunch of
nouns and random stuff, I'm like, I can't do this right,
I don't know how you're doing this. Verb noun constructs
(10:42):
win the day. The second thing is be careful that
you're not mixing too many sizes of action items on
the same to do list. So I'll also look at
people to do list and I'll have like a year
sized project and a month sized project in like three
five minute calls. And like, I'm like your brain and
every time you do that, can't really understand what needs
(11:03):
to happen. And our brains actually do not process multiple
spaces of time at the same time very well. Right,
So this is like your today's list. Keep it focused
to like two hour blocks of time and task that
you're going to do, right, don't have the bigger project
segment on there. The other thing I'd say here is
(11:24):
on your to do list. And I'm realizing how obvious
this may sound to many of your listeners. Lord, given
what you're doing, be very clear about like what you
must do versus what you might get to right, be curtical,
and usually it's like for most people, three to five
things on that to do list are going to happen.
Anything else above that is probably magical thinking unless you've
(11:45):
done a really really good job of like stacking six
admin blocks behind each other and you're really on top
of that. But that sort of unstructured seventeen things to
do list, it is a for failure. And I think
the last time, the last thing they'll say here is
write your to dos your action items is if you're
(12:06):
writing them to someone else, right, because odds are a
lot of those to do's aren't going to get done.
Odds are what you wrote Monday three weeks ago. You
might not remember Thursday, right three yeks later. So if
you write it as if you're writing it to someone
else when you come back to that to do list,
when you come back to that action item, it will
(12:26):
actually still make enough sense for you to push it forward.
Speaker 1 (12:30):
So I also saw that you, I mean, you had
a list on your website of productive flourishing of verbs
that are associated with different time frames. And I found
this fascinating because it's you know, when you have a
verb that's a project that's really a month long project, right,
like launch something, right, That's that's probably not a today
(12:50):
kind of thing, whereas call somebody is a today thing?
Speaker 2 (12:55):
Right?
Speaker 1 (12:55):
So I mean, like, what are what are the big
verbs for big chunks of time and how can we reckon?
And small ones?
Speaker 2 (13:01):
Yeah, so if you wanted to google that, wan, it'll
be thirty seven verbs for your action items. So if
you type productor flourishing thirty seven verbs you'll find it.
But yeah, that was the brain gasm that I had
while writing Start Finishing. I was like, wait a second.
There are certain verbs that just tell you what size
the project is, right, so call email right ship, right,
those types of things. Those are probably task related verbs
(13:22):
of something that you could do and probably twenty minutes
or less.
Speaker 1 (13:24):
Right.
Speaker 2 (13:25):
Great, But whenever you get to like, you know, publish
with the big p like publish my book, you're you're
already talking about meaning quarters in years, right, as opposed
to publish a blog post, which, if you're in that
groove and you have that competency, may actually be a task.
But if it's you know, published the ultimate guide to
you know, productivity, that might be a month long project, right,
(13:48):
really might. So launch is one of those words. Initiate
is one of those big project words. Research can sometimes
go either way, Like if you're researching on a big product,
that's probably I am on side of things, you know,
I would just say, like, be very look at the verb,
whatever verbs you use, because there's only really like the
(14:10):
other thing about this is in the English language, there
actually aren't that many task verbs right or action verbs.
So if you really look at the verbs that's on
your to do list, ask yourself how big of what
size of work is that telling me that this is
how big is this chunk? And a just accordingly.
Speaker 1 (14:29):
Excellent good advice. So, Charlie, I'm wondering if you have
any routines that help make you more productive. I know
you advise lots of people, but what do you kind
of swear by in your day to day life.
Speaker 2 (14:41):
Okay, so I have to start that one with the
fact that I'm a lion chronotype, which consider that's the
early bird right there in the old models. I'm an
early riser, and so that means morning routines are going
to be really important for me. And my morning routine
this has gotten pretty long by the time I careporate,
physical recovery and just all the sort of things. And
so you know, by the time I listen to a meditation,
(15:03):
by the time I sort of reflect and contemplate on
the day, by the time I journal, and then by
the time I go on the coffee walk, all like,
all that's part of my morning routine. It might be
ninety minutes to two hours right of just doing that. Now,
listeners y'all know, Laura is way better about productivity when
you have kids. So that might not work for folks
(15:23):
who have a lot of kids, but it does work
for me. And that's the question, right. I also have
end of day routines, like before I just sort of
slide out and say I'm done, Like what did I
get done? What didn't get done? What do I need
to kick tomorrow? What can I just let go of?
And so those end of day routines. I talk about
it as the ten to fifteen split, whereas you stake
(15:43):
ten minutes in the morning to review the plan that
you made for yourself in the last fifteen minutes of
the day prior. Because it turns out that end of
day you it's probably the more sane and discerning version
of you, especially if you're a lying rightly, so it
actually does a better job of making priorities and plans
for the next day. Then early morning you that's got
(16:06):
all the energy and all the coffee and all the
exuberants for forty five minutes and then reality creeps back in. Right,
So if you do that sort of process, yes, yes
it's twenty five minutes a day, but it's a way
better activity to do than just default into email or
social media, and it helps you get ever better about
seeing what you can actually do in today versus what's
(16:29):
delusional thinking, Yeah.
Speaker 1 (16:31):
People have that first cup of coffee, they can conquer
the world, and then discover later in the day that
that might not be the case.
Speaker 2 (16:38):
The world is formidable. It turns out the.
Speaker 1 (16:41):
World will kick back by the end end of the
day for sure. Is there anything you've tried that hasn't
worked for you?
Speaker 2 (16:49):
Ooh yes, Like usually I'll let it go very very quickly,
So let me see if I can think of This
is a hard one because I move on very very
quickly from things that don't work, So I can think
of a lot of tools that don't work for me.
And why so I'll flip this because this actually came
up today. I have returned to the fact that I
(17:14):
need persistent visual cues for my goals. So actually that
would be a good way of saying it. Just keeping
my goals and priorities in a digital to do list,
and I have like, I actually have an app for this,
like does not work for me? Right, I need it
on a whiteboard, I need it on a sticky note.
I need those sort of month size, quarter size, year
(17:34):
sized goals to stay persistent and in my visual field
and not just in some app that I got to
remember to go look for. So that does not work
for me at all. May just be because I'm gen X,
but like I just think our brains were diluted with
so much we are in a day loage of digital
information that we don't retain it anymore. But those persistent
(17:57):
goals aspirations value is that I will place around the
house are really important to me. And the reason I
don't have them is actually earlier this year, my wife
and I switched switched home offices, and so I took
everything to the essential and minimal to see what actually
worked and what didn't work. And have realized seven months
(18:17):
into this experiment that not having those goals, of not
having the whiteboards was one of those things. Was like, oh,
that's why I'm scattered and more unfocused and don't know
where I'm going. Just didn't have it in my visual
field all day. Now.
Speaker 1 (18:29):
That's fascinating though, that you guys switched home offices. I'm
so curious what led to that, because I'm guessing a
lot of people don't do that you kind of claimed
your spot, and especially if people like started working from
home during the pandemic, each of you chose your home
office spot and it never gets changed. So what led
to this?
Speaker 2 (18:48):
Environmental factors? So my wife is much more sensitive to sun,
and I'm in the office that gets the most sun,
and it's an annoyance for me most days. And so
we just had this sort of simple idea. It's like,
why don't to take the south facing office right that's
got the sun and you can do your work there,
and then I'll take the back when that's darker and quieter,
and you know, seem to be more of a nook
(19:10):
sort of thing. I love working in sort of libraries
and sort of tight spots, and so we tried it,
but then just realized there were other environmental factors that
we didn't consider, like all the kids that play in
the backyard surrounding ours and how loud they are all day.
She's able to tune them out. I am not right. Also,
it turns out that her office, she doesn't work in
(19:31):
her office as persistently as I do. She works around
the house. I root in the office, but it's right
above the kitchen, and so all day, there's like, you know,
kitchen noise and all sorts of things, and I turns
out I didn't know how sensitive to noise I was
in that way, and I don't want to be like
having headphones all all day. So we tried it for
about six weeks. Both hated it for different reasons and
(19:55):
switched back, But that was just what it was, and
so it was actually a really good process for us
looking at where we are in this season of our
life versus where we were fifteen years ago when we
moved into this house, to really reassess what works for us,
what doesn't work for us, and really can claim that
and stop experimenting with stuff that we know that works
(20:16):
and find other things to experiment with.
Speaker 1 (20:19):
Good advice, Yeah, No, I mean we do a lot
without thinking about it, and looking at our everyday processes
can be important. Or We're going to take one more
quick ad break and I'll be back with more from
Charlie Guilkey. Well, I am back talking with Charlie Gilkey,
who is the owner of Productive Flourishing and the author
(20:40):
of the book Team Habits and also Start Finishing. So Charlie,
I always ask my guest, what is something you have
done recently to take a day from great to awesome.
Speaker 2 (20:51):
So my view at this point, like having done this
work so long, is that part of what we mistake
in personal productivity is how much it's around action and
doing versus how much it really is about being and
feeling right. And so to a t what I will
(21:12):
do to make my days go from great to awesome
is really used well. Part of it is using what
I call the five projects rule, which is no more
than five active projects per time horizon, which normalizes the
fact that if I have four or five meetings in
that day from a work perspective, that's all I'm going
to do, period. And why that takes it to awesome
(21:34):
is because it removes that additional anxiety and overwhelm and
sort of thinking about everything else, and I can just
enjoy being and doing the work at hand and not
thinking like, oh I got to do something else, there's
something else. No, no, no, no, just be where you are
and enjoy what you have created and what you're co
creating with others, right, And so that always pushes it
(21:56):
that way. So it's just always normalizing, like, Okay, what's
essential for today? How do I want to be how
do I want to feel and what else can I
let go of so that I can center in that moment.
Speaker 1 (22:10):
I think we spend a lot of time and waste
a lot of time thinking we should be doing something else.
I mean, you're doing what you're doing regardless. That's one
of the problems of long too long to do lists, right,
Like you know people are not going to do everything
on it, but there was no point in putting it
on the to do list and then not doing it precisely.
Speaker 2 (22:26):
And that's where, like going back to what I said
about the to do list, get real, folks, you're only
going to do three to five things. And if you're
in a situation like what I was just talking about,
where like the things are actually on your schedule I
either meetings or all those different types of things that
is work. Let's get out of this idea that like
I know, I need to get out of this meeting
so I can get back to the real work. So
that you don't have this dual streak of this reality,
(22:48):
this sort of delusion that you started the day with
a full blank set of time and you didn't do
all the things that you said you could do in
that amount of time. Time you never had that amount of
time like most of the time. When I'm coming in,
especially in the teen context, I'll level set and I
say the reality is from the very start until you
(23:09):
prove me wrong, I'm assuming that about sixty five percent
of your time is just filled up with routine stuff
and meetings and all sorts of other stuff, and it's
probably higher than that. So anything we talk about has
to be what goes into that thirty five percent that remains.
But let's actually start there, and let's get out of
this idea that we have a blank slate of time
(23:30):
to work with, because we don't. So, yeah, you're only
going to do three to five things. And if you're
in a bunch of meetings, you're taking your kids to school,
you got to do a PTA conference, you're caretaking. Those
are things, those are projects. Claim them and just be
real about what you're going to do and do the
best you can to let go of the rest and
don't fall into the pattern of comparing your actual life
(23:56):
to the manicured life that you see on social media.
Every One on social media is showing you the sanitized
version of their life, even if they're telling you that
it's the real thing. It's not right. You don't know
what they did, you don't know everything like that. Just
watch your own lane, honor your actual commitments, honor your
actual capacity, and do the best you can with the discretionary.
Speaker 1 (24:19):
Absolutely. Yeah. One thing I was especially with all the
influencers on social media, and it's professional photography, which means,
right there, there's somebody else, like, you know, this beautiful
scene of their family, there's somebody else there, you know,
So keep that in mind, you know, that's the first thing,
first thing to realize. So Charlie, what are you looking
forward to right now?
Speaker 2 (24:40):
It's going to sound really basic, but just I've been
focusing more over the last three or four quarters just
on writing, Like I've got some books I don't want
to get out, and so just getting those next, you know,
four at this point books out over the next few years,
and sticking to the knating in that way. I'm in
the season of my career where I've looked at a
lot of the distractions and performances that I don't want
(25:03):
to do anymore, and just really getting excited about, you know,
writing more great books and doing more of the you know,
advising and teaching with clients, pretty basic on that front.
On the life front, my wife and I do a
lot of road trips and a lot of motorcycle riding,
and so like I think next year we may be
able to do a long Alaska trip, right, Well that's great, yeah,
(25:26):
but it's you know, six to seven weeks figuring out
how we're going to do it in that amount of time. Like,
so those are the types of things that I really
look forward to on that side. So, you know, at
this point it's kind of like the low the slow burned.
Long adventures are really where it's at.
Speaker 1 (25:41):
Where it's at for me absolutely, and Charlie, where can
people find you?
Speaker 2 (25:45):
All roads lead to Productive Flourishing dot com. So if
you're interested in whether it's personal productivity, teamwork, or you know, leadership,
go to Productive Flourishing dot com and you know you'll
see what we have there available.
Speaker 1 (25:56):
Sounds great, well, Charlie, thank you so much for joining us.
Thank you to everyone for if you have feedback about
this or any other episode, you can always reach me
at Laura at Laura vandercam dot com. And in the meantime,
this is Laura. Thanks for listening, and here's to making
the most of our time. Thanks for listening to Before Breakfast.
(26:21):
If you've got questions, ideas, or feedback, you can reach
me at Laura at Laura vandercam dot com. Before Breakfast
is a production of iHeartMedia. For more podcasts from iHeartMedia,
please visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you
(26:43):
listen to your favorite shows.
Welcome to Before Breakfast, a production of iHeartRadio. Good Morning.
This is Laura. Welcome to the Before Breakfast podcast. Today's
episode is going to be a longer one part of
the theories where I interview fascinating people about how they
take their days from great to awesome and any advice
(00:24):
they have for the rest of us. So today I
am delighted to welcome Charlie Guilkey to Before Breakfast. Charlie
is the owner of Productive Flourishing. He is also the
author of the book's Team Habits and Start Finishing. So Charlie,
welcome to the show.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
Laura, thanks so much for having me. I'm excited to
be here today.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
Yeah, well, why don't you tell our listeners a little
bit about yourself?
Speaker 2 (00:45):
So I'll try to keep this brief. I am one
of those polymathic folks that like fall in a lot
of holes and figure out how I fell into it
and tell people how not to do that and then
get back out of it. You know, I've been I'm
kind of a dinosaur now on the only Internet. Turns out,
been doing this since the mid two thousands, you know,
writing about a variety of things from personal productivity to
(01:08):
teaming better to leading better, and so the span of
my work actually goes through all of those, and it
may or may not come up today given the format
of the show. But at heart, I'm more of a
philosopher figuring things out than an entrepreneur or sort of
writer in that sort of way. So most of this
sort of stuff is just me grappling with paradoxes and
(01:32):
hard problems and trying to make sense of it all.
Speaker 1 (01:35):
Yeah, well, how did you land in this field of productivity?
Speaker 2 (01:38):
Though?
Speaker 1 (01:39):
I mean, one can follow all sorts of rabbit holes,
and I want maybe you can weave into this because
I understand you also had a military career before all
this as well. I wonder if that had any anything
to do with all this.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
Well, that was very definitely how I got into this.
So I deployed in Supportive Operation I RACKI Freedom in
two thousand and four and two thousand and five, and
I was a logistics officer, and by the end of
my tour, I was, you know, the plans officer and
coordinating like lots of convoy movements in the theater, right,
And so I'd gotten really good at doing big things
(02:11):
and getting good stuff done in in tight timeframes. But
then I came back and got back into grad school.
So I'm a near PhD in philosophy, and after about
about a semester or two, I was like, you know,
here's the problem. Like I can do all this really
great stuff on the military side of things, but this
five thousand word essays kick to my butt, like what
(02:32):
is going on here? And so, like any good scholar
and officer would do, I was like, I'm not the
only person that has this problem, Like, surely someone else
has figured this out. So I started reading you know,
the classics the seven habits that getting things done, and
found that I was doing so much work translating them
for someone who was a polymathic creative person that I
(02:54):
was like, you know what, I'm just going to start
sharing this sort of stuff with other people. So, like
any good you know, you know, old millennial or young
gen X or what do I started a blog about it, right,
And so started writing about it, and you know, started
it really started helping people, and so more and more
people started asking me like, hey, will you help me
with my team, will you help me with my own
personal productivity? Will you help me in my business? And
(03:15):
it took off from there. So where I am now
was nowhere on the map in the mid two thousands, Like,
I had no idea that I could do it or
people like me could do it, And so yeah, it
just has been this emergent, fascinating adventure. Then I'm still
figuring out as go along.
Speaker 1 (03:31):
Yeah. Absolutely, Well you said something interesting there. You use
the phrase personal productivity, and I understand from some things
you've written that you say that's a bit of a misnomer,
that productivity is kind of more of a team sport.
I mean, certainly that's the case, and you're, you know,
doing leading a lot of people in the military, for instance,
But that's the case in other context as well.
Speaker 2 (03:50):
Yeah, it really is. And so unless you are you know,
Henry David throw living on Walding Pond or something like that,
you work with other people, well, you live with other people.
And fundamentally, productivity, in my view, is about becoming the
best version of yourself for thriving in the way that's
uniquely you, right, And to thrive you have to do
(04:11):
that in a social, economic, and political context, right, And
so I think so much of the personal productivity conversation
when people come to us, like people are taking a
lot of onus on themselves to sort of adopt a
hero complex that their own actions will change a lot
of things. But the reality is working and learning how
(04:33):
to work in teams, learning how to lead teams, learning
how to work with your family is actually where the
secret sauce of thriving and productivity really is.
Speaker 1 (04:42):
Yeah, it's funny. Even throw I believe was having his
mom do his laundry or.
Speaker 2 (04:47):
Something like that. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:50):
Yeah, yeah, well so with productivity, you know, another topic
you've you've talked about is like time blocking and the
different types of blocks people might put into their days.
So I remember reading something about like focus blocks and
administration blocks and social blocks. I mean, because those are
you know, also we do and recovery blocks. Let's talk
(05:11):
about those.
Speaker 2 (05:12):
Yeah, so thanks for bringing that up. So a focus
block is you know, if you're familiar with cow Newport's work,
you might call it a deep work block, but it's
really that block of time where you focus on one
thing at a time and really worked that third. Now,
the misnomber or the misconception people have is that they
can only do that one thing. So it's like I
can only be staring at the screen writing for that
(05:32):
amount of time. It's like, no, it's really all of
the processes that support that. So if you need to
get coffee and go to the bathroom make out lines,
that's still part of the block. And usually these blocks
are ninety to one hundred and twenty minutes long, because
that's really how long it takes to get into something
and make some substantial progress and then get out smoothly, insanely, right,
So ninety to one hundred and twenty minutes. There, social
(05:54):
blocks are what you are. What we're talking about. There
is like times in which you're open, available and sort
of in a good place to be peopling, right, And
that's not a universal thing. Some people are not. I
don't talk to them in the morning. Some people are
don't talk to them after three thirty, so you kind
of kind of know that. And again those are ninety
to one hundred and twenty minutes because what people forget
(06:16):
about is for any sort of one hour meeting, there's
about fifteen minutes ahead of time where you're sinking and
transitioning and getting into it, and then there's almost always
admin that comes on the back end of it that
you need to sort of process and get clear with right,
And if you don't schedule that or you don't think
about it that way, you end up with this wall
of admin and loose thoughts and scatteredness because you didn't
(06:40):
actually contain that time right. Admin blocks what they sound
like is where you're doing the emails, you're making the
quick phone calls, you're doing those types of things. Those
are thirty to sixty minutes long. Because one, most of
us don't want to spend all afternoon doing them, and
you'll start to rebel and jump to social media or
whatever your distraction is. But also it helps you focus
on what are the key things that I need to
(07:02):
be done and be proactive about it. Last, but not least,
are recovery blocks. So, Laura, when I started this gig,
I just assumed people would schedule recovery blocks and schedule
downtime and schedule stretch breaks and lunch. But then we've
done the work, you and I have done the work.
You know that's not happening. So it's like, okay, people,
let's make the obvious explicit. You need a recovery block. Now.
(07:23):
The thing about recovery blocks is that there's no set
amount of time and there's no set activity. It's what
it does for you that matters. So Laura might think
that CrossFit is recovery for her. Charlie does not.
Speaker 1 (07:37):
Laura doesn't think that, Okay.
Speaker 2 (07:39):
Well, you're the superstar here, so I have to build
up this myth that you're this superhuman. Right, so I'm
playing along, right, you know. But Laura might think, Charlie
might think, actually, just sitting down and outlining for five
minutes is a recovery block, just to get things out
of my brain. Right, So it doesn't matter what the
activity is, is what it does for you that matters.
And when you really think about time blocking, you have
(08:01):
to balance these in a way that fits your internal
and external demands and requirements and what fits your aspirations.
And what I'll say real quick is the limiting factor
to career and personal growth are going to be how
many focus blocks you have, because that's where you do
the work that matters most. And if you have zero
(08:23):
or too few, you're not going to be doing those things,
and you're going to get caught on that at on
that wheel where you're just getting through and you're getting by,
but you're not really getting ahead.
Speaker 1 (08:33):
Yeah. Well, I'm curious what are your recovery blocks, Like,
what do you do to rejuvenate yourself.
Speaker 2 (08:40):
I have a coffee shop that's about point nine miles away,
so I'll walk down to the coffee shop and get coffee,
and it's a forcing function for me to get away
from screens. I ride motorcycles because when I'm riding motorcycles,
I can't do anything but ride motorcycles, right, one hopes
I do. I have a like a rucksack that I'll
walk around and play video games, sort of mindless video
(09:02):
games that don't require a lot of thinking. Reading. I
have to be careful about writing, because writing is one
of those things where it very quickly turns from like
a soothing journalinge activity to all of a sudden, I've
been braining for three hours and it's backfired on me. Right, yeah,
so hiking outdoor stuff usually. The rule for me is
all my recovery blocks are away from screens as much
(09:25):
as possible in nature and as much as possible integrating movement.
Speaker 1 (09:30):
Excellent, excellent. All right, We're going to take a quick
ad break and then I'll be back with more from
Charlie Gilkey. Well, I am back talking with Charlie Gilkey,
who is the owner of Productive Flourishing. So I want
to talk with you a little bit about to do lists.
(09:51):
I think you have talked about how people often get
to do lists wrong. So maybe we can talk a
little bit about the problems and then how we can
we can solve those problems.
Speaker 2 (10:02):
Oh, the many problems of a to do list. I'm
going to start with some non obvious ones. Y'all use
a verb noun construct in your to do list, Like,
start it with a verb and have some now noun
on it. So don't just be like podcast podcast, What
what do I do with that podcast?
Speaker 1 (10:20):
Right?
Speaker 2 (10:20):
Yeah? Start the podcast, record, podcast, edit, podcast, whatever that is.
Don't just be like Jane, what are you doing with Jane?
Is it call Jane? Walk with Jane's like put a
verb in front of those And that's one of the
key things people do. Like when I see a list
someone's to do list and it's just a bunch of
nouns and random stuff, I'm like, I can't do this right,
I don't know how you're doing this. Verb noun constructs
(10:42):
win the day. The second thing is be careful that
you're not mixing too many sizes of action items on
the same to do list. So I'll also look at
people to do list and I'll have like a year
sized project and a month sized project in like three
five minute calls. And like, I'm like your brain and
every time you do that, can't really understand what needs
(11:03):
to happen. And our brains actually do not process multiple
spaces of time at the same time very well. Right,
So this is like your today's list. Keep it focused
to like two hour blocks of time and task that
you're going to do, right, don't have the bigger project
segment on there. The other thing I'd say here is
(11:24):
on your to do list. And I'm realizing how obvious
this may sound to many of your listeners. Lord, given
what you're doing, be very clear about like what you
must do versus what you might get to right, be curtical,
and usually it's like for most people, three to five
things on that to do list are going to happen.
Anything else above that is probably magical thinking unless you've
(11:45):
done a really really good job of like stacking six
admin blocks behind each other and you're really on top
of that. But that sort of unstructured seventeen things to
do list, it is a for failure. And I think
the last time, the last thing they'll say here is
write your to dos your action items is if you're
(12:06):
writing them to someone else, right, because odds are a
lot of those to do's aren't going to get done.
Odds are what you wrote Monday three weeks ago. You
might not remember Thursday, right three yeks later. So if
you write it as if you're writing it to someone
else when you come back to that to do list,
when you come back to that action item, it will
(12:26):
actually still make enough sense for you to push it forward.
Speaker 1 (12:30):
So I also saw that you, I mean, you had
a list on your website of productive flourishing of verbs
that are associated with different time frames. And I found
this fascinating because it's you know, when you have a
verb that's a project that's really a month long project, right,
like launch something, right, That's that's probably not a today
(12:50):
kind of thing, whereas call somebody is a today thing?
Speaker 2 (12:55):
Right?
Speaker 1 (12:55):
So I mean, like, what are what are the big
verbs for big chunks of time and how can we reckon?
And small ones?
Speaker 2 (13:01):
Yeah, so if you wanted to google that, wan, it'll
be thirty seven verbs for your action items. So if
you type productor flourishing thirty seven verbs you'll find it.
But yeah, that was the brain gasm that I had
while writing Start Finishing. I was like, wait a second.
There are certain verbs that just tell you what size
the project is, right, so call email right ship, right,
those types of things. Those are probably task related verbs
(13:22):
of something that you could do and probably twenty minutes
or less.
Speaker 1 (13:24):
Right.
Speaker 2 (13:25):
Great, But whenever you get to like, you know, publish
with the big p like publish my book, you're you're
already talking about meaning quarters in years, right, as opposed
to publish a blog post, which, if you're in that
groove and you have that competency, may actually be a task.
But if it's you know, published the ultimate guide to
you know, productivity, that might be a month long project, right,
(13:48):
really might. So launch is one of those words. Initiate
is one of those big project words. Research can sometimes
go either way, Like if you're researching on a big product,
that's probably I am on side of things, you know,
I would just say, like, be very look at the verb,
whatever verbs you use, because there's only really like the
(14:10):
other thing about this is in the English language, there
actually aren't that many task verbs right or action verbs.
So if you really look at the verbs that's on
your to do list, ask yourself how big of what
size of work is that telling me that this is
how big is this chunk? And a just accordingly.
Speaker 1 (14:29):
Excellent good advice. So, Charlie, I'm wondering if you have
any routines that help make you more productive. I know
you advise lots of people, but what do you kind
of swear by in your day to day life.
Speaker 2 (14:41):
Okay, so I have to start that one with the
fact that I'm a lion chronotype, which consider that's the
early bird right there in the old models. I'm an
early riser, and so that means morning routines are going
to be really important for me. And my morning routine
this has gotten pretty long by the time I careporate,
physical recovery and just all the sort of things. And
so you know, by the time I listen to a meditation,
(15:03):
by the time I sort of reflect and contemplate on
the day, by the time I journal, and then by
the time I go on the coffee walk, all like,
all that's part of my morning routine. It might be
ninety minutes to two hours right of just doing that. Now,
listeners y'all know, Laura is way better about productivity when
you have kids. So that might not work for folks
(15:23):
who have a lot of kids, but it does work
for me. And that's the question, right. I also have
end of day routines, like before I just sort of
slide out and say I'm done, Like what did I
get done? What didn't get done? What do I need
to kick tomorrow? What can I just let go of?
And so those end of day routines. I talk about
it as the ten to fifteen split, whereas you stake
(15:43):
ten minutes in the morning to review the plan that
you made for yourself in the last fifteen minutes of
the day prior. Because it turns out that end of
day you it's probably the more sane and discerning version
of you, especially if you're a lying rightly, so it
actually does a better job of making priorities and plans
for the next day. Then early morning you that's got
(16:06):
all the energy and all the coffee and all the
exuberants for forty five minutes and then reality creeps back in. Right,
So if you do that sort of process, yes, yes
it's twenty five minutes a day, but it's a way
better activity to do than just default into email or
social media, and it helps you get ever better about
seeing what you can actually do in today versus what's
(16:29):
delusional thinking, Yeah.
Speaker 1 (16:31):
People have that first cup of coffee, they can conquer
the world, and then discover later in the day that
that might not be the case.
Speaker 2 (16:38):
The world is formidable. It turns out the.
Speaker 1 (16:41):
World will kick back by the end end of the
day for sure. Is there anything you've tried that hasn't
worked for you?
Speaker 2 (16:49):
Ooh yes, Like usually I'll let it go very very quickly,
So let me see if I can think of This
is a hard one because I move on very very
quickly from things that don't work, So I can think
of a lot of tools that don't work for me.
And why so I'll flip this because this actually came
up today. I have returned to the fact that I
(17:14):
need persistent visual cues for my goals. So actually that
would be a good way of saying it. Just keeping
my goals and priorities in a digital to do list,
and I have like, I actually have an app for this,
like does not work for me? Right, I need it
on a whiteboard, I need it on a sticky note.
I need those sort of month size, quarter size, year
(17:34):
sized goals to stay persistent and in my visual field
and not just in some app that I got to
remember to go look for. So that does not work
for me at all. May just be because I'm gen X,
but like I just think our brains were diluted with
so much we are in a day loage of digital
information that we don't retain it anymore. But those persistent
(17:57):
goals aspirations value is that I will place around the
house are really important to me. And the reason I
don't have them is actually earlier this year, my wife
and I switched switched home offices, and so I took
everything to the essential and minimal to see what actually
worked and what didn't work. And have realized seven months
(18:17):
into this experiment that not having those goals, of not
having the whiteboards was one of those things. Was like, oh,
that's why I'm scattered and more unfocused and don't know
where I'm going. Just didn't have it in my visual
field all day. Now.
Speaker 1 (18:29):
That's fascinating though, that you guys switched home offices. I'm
so curious what led to that, because I'm guessing a
lot of people don't do that you kind of claimed
your spot, and especially if people like started working from
home during the pandemic, each of you chose your home
office spot and it never gets changed. So what led
to this?
Speaker 2 (18:48):
Environmental factors? So my wife is much more sensitive to sun,
and I'm in the office that gets the most sun,
and it's an annoyance for me most days. And so
we just had this sort of simple idea. It's like,
why don't to take the south facing office right that's
got the sun and you can do your work there,
and then I'll take the back when that's darker and quieter,
and you know, seem to be more of a nook
(19:10):
sort of thing. I love working in sort of libraries
and sort of tight spots, and so we tried it,
but then just realized there were other environmental factors that
we didn't consider, like all the kids that play in
the backyard surrounding ours and how loud they are all day.
She's able to tune them out. I am not right. Also,
it turns out that her office, she doesn't work in
(19:31):
her office as persistently as I do. She works around
the house. I root in the office, but it's right
above the kitchen, and so all day, there's like, you know,
kitchen noise and all sorts of things, and I turns
out I didn't know how sensitive to noise I was
in that way, and I don't want to be like
having headphones all all day. So we tried it for
about six weeks. Both hated it for different reasons and
(19:55):
switched back, But that was just what it was, and
so it was actually a really good process for us
looking at where we are in this season of our
life versus where we were fifteen years ago when we
moved into this house, to really reassess what works for us,
what doesn't work for us, and really can claim that
and stop experimenting with stuff that we know that works
(20:16):
and find other things to experiment with.
Speaker 1 (20:19):
Good advice, Yeah, No, I mean we do a lot
without thinking about it, and looking at our everyday processes
can be important. Or We're going to take one more
quick ad break and I'll be back with more from
Charlie Guilkey. Well, I am back talking with Charlie Gilkey,
who is the owner of Productive Flourishing and the author
(20:40):
of the book Team Habits and also Start Finishing. So Charlie,
I always ask my guest, what is something you have
done recently to take a day from great to awesome.
Speaker 2 (20:51):
So my view at this point, like having done this
work so long, is that part of what we mistake
in personal productivity is how much it's around action and
doing versus how much it really is about being and
feeling right. And so to a t what I will
(21:12):
do to make my days go from great to awesome
is really used well. Part of it is using what
I call the five projects rule, which is no more
than five active projects per time horizon, which normalizes the
fact that if I have four or five meetings in
that day from a work perspective, that's all I'm going
to do, period. And why that takes it to awesome
(21:34):
is because it removes that additional anxiety and overwhelm and
sort of thinking about everything else, and I can just
enjoy being and doing the work at hand and not
thinking like, oh I got to do something else, there's
something else. No, no, no, no, just be where you are
and enjoy what you have created and what you're co
creating with others, right, And so that always pushes it
(21:56):
that way. So it's just always normalizing, like, Okay, what's
essential for today? How do I want to be how
do I want to feel and what else can I
let go of so that I can center in that moment.
Speaker 1 (22:10):
I think we spend a lot of time and waste
a lot of time thinking we should be doing something else.
I mean, you're doing what you're doing regardless. That's one
of the problems of long too long to do lists, right,
Like you know people are not going to do everything
on it, but there was no point in putting it
on the to do list and then not doing it precisely.
Speaker 2 (22:26):
And that's where, like going back to what I said
about the to do list, get real, folks, you're only
going to do three to five things. And if you're
in a situation like what I was just talking about,
where like the things are actually on your schedule I
either meetings or all those different types of things that
is work. Let's get out of this idea that like
I know, I need to get out of this meeting
so I can get back to the real work. So
that you don't have this dual streak of this reality,
(22:48):
this sort of delusion that you started the day with
a full blank set of time and you didn't do
all the things that you said you could do in
that amount of time. Time you never had that amount of
time like most of the time. When I'm coming in,
especially in the teen context, I'll level set and I
say the reality is from the very start until you
(23:09):
prove me wrong, I'm assuming that about sixty five percent
of your time is just filled up with routine stuff
and meetings and all sorts of other stuff, and it's
probably higher than that. So anything we talk about has
to be what goes into that thirty five percent that remains.
But let's actually start there, and let's get out of
this idea that we have a blank slate of time
(23:30):
to work with, because we don't. So, yeah, you're only
going to do three to five things. And if you're
in a bunch of meetings, you're taking your kids to school,
you got to do a PTA conference, you're caretaking. Those
are things, those are projects. Claim them and just be
real about what you're going to do and do the
best you can to let go of the rest and
don't fall into the pattern of comparing your actual life
(23:56):
to the manicured life that you see on social media.
Every One on social media is showing you the sanitized
version of their life, even if they're telling you that
it's the real thing. It's not right. You don't know
what they did, you don't know everything like that. Just
watch your own lane, honor your actual commitments, honor your
actual capacity, and do the best you can with the discretionary.
Speaker 1 (24:19):
Absolutely. Yeah. One thing I was especially with all the
influencers on social media, and it's professional photography, which means,
right there, there's somebody else, like, you know, this beautiful
scene of their family, there's somebody else there, you know,
So keep that in mind, you know, that's the first thing,
first thing to realize. So Charlie, what are you looking
forward to right now?
Speaker 2 (24:40):
It's going to sound really basic, but just I've been
focusing more over the last three or four quarters just
on writing, Like I've got some books I don't want
to get out, and so just getting those next, you know,
four at this point books out over the next few years,
and sticking to the knating in that way. I'm in
the season of my career where I've looked at a
lot of the distractions and performances that I don't want
(25:03):
to do anymore, and just really getting excited about, you know,
writing more great books and doing more of the you know,
advising and teaching with clients, pretty basic on that front.
On the life front, my wife and I do a
lot of road trips and a lot of motorcycle riding,
and so like I think next year we may be
able to do a long Alaska trip, right, Well that's great, yeah,
(25:26):
but it's you know, six to seven weeks figuring out
how we're going to do it in that amount of time. Like,
so those are the types of things that I really
look forward to on that side. So, you know, at
this point it's kind of like the low the slow burned.
Long adventures are really where it's at.
Speaker 1 (25:41):
Where it's at for me absolutely, and Charlie, where can
people find you?
Speaker 2 (25:45):
All roads lead to Productive Flourishing dot com. So if
you're interested in whether it's personal productivity, teamwork, or you know, leadership,
go to Productive Flourishing dot com and you know you'll
see what we have there available.
Speaker 1 (25:56):
Sounds great, well, Charlie, thank you so much for joining us.
Thank you to everyone for if you have feedback about
this or any other episode, you can always reach me
at Laura at Laura vandercam dot com. And in the meantime,
this is Laura. Thanks for listening, and here's to making
the most of our time. Thanks for listening to Before Breakfast.
(26:21):
If you've got questions, ideas, or feedback, you can reach
me at Laura at Laura vandercam dot com. Before Breakfast
is a production of iHeartMedia. For more podcasts from iHeartMedia,
please visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you
(26:43):
listen to your favorite shows.
Before Breakfast News
Host
Laura Vanderkam
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