June 4, 2025 • 22 mins
Kathy Oneto, author of Sustainable Ambition, shares how to make work and life work together
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Speaker 1 (00:08):
Good morning. This is Laura. Welcome to the Before Breakfast podcast.
Today's episode will be a longer one part of the
series where I interview fascinating people about how they take
their days from great to awesome and any advice they
have for the rest of us. So today I am
excited to welcome Kathy Onetto to the show. Kathy is
(00:30):
the author of the book Sustainable Ambition, which is out
this month. So Kathy, thank you for joining us.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
Thanks first, thanks so much for having me Laura.
Speaker 1 (00:38):
Yeah, I'm excited to have you on this So why
don't you introduce yourself to our listeners.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
Sure, So, I am somebody who has embraced ambition across
both my professional and personal lives. I've had an over
twenty five year career at this point, and I'm in
my second act, and i have what I call a
portfolio career. I do strategy consulting and transformation work, but
I'm also the founder of Sustainable Ambition, where I'm a
(01:04):
life work strategist, coach and facilitator. And in this realm,
I leverage that strategy background and apply it to life
and work integration and management, and I explore rethinking success
and ambition, And I'm really passionate about helping ambitious professionals,
organizations and teams explore how to live and work differently
from more success, satisfaction and sustainability.
Speaker 1 (01:27):
Yeah. Well, what does sustainable ambition mean? I mean, how
is that different from garden variety ambition?
Speaker 2 (01:33):
That's interesting? Yeah, well, I mean sustainable ambition really means like,
how do we stay engaged in our lives, in our
work over time, and how do we pursue what we
really want and desire in our lives without sacrificing our
lives in the process or ourselves.
Speaker 1 (01:52):
Yeah. And so Sustainable Ambition, which is your book on
this topic, is out this month in June. And in
the book you talk about are being three pillars to
sustainable ambition? Maybe you could talk through those quickly for us. Sure.
Speaker 2 (02:06):
So, I say that we can find more life, work, sustainability,
and really approach our goals with more resilience when we
align the right ambitions at the right time, with the
right effort and right ambition is really about shifting from
using external motivators to drive us to shifting toward our
internal motivators, looking at what really are going to be
(02:30):
internal drivers of reward for us, right time is about
shifting from doing it all to doing what matters. It
asks us to look at life and work together and
consider our life stage and really prioritize what matters at
this time. And then right effort is really about shifting
from constant drive to really strategic effort. It's about how
(02:52):
do I be discerning about where I'm putting in my effort?
And then also am I being thoughtful and intentional? How
I am sustaining myself over time?
Speaker 1 (03:03):
Absolutely well. I wanted to drill in a little bit
on that right time one because I think the experience
I know a lot of people have had, and you
know that I've talked with people about how they spend
their time over the years, is that, you know, it's
not that we are ambitious or not ambitious. Often our
ambition goes up and down at different stages depending on
(03:23):
what else is going on in their lives. And I've
heard people going through very very intense times in their
personal life for whatever reason that happens to be good, bad, whatever,
that they are in a more coasting mindset for a
little while. It doesn't mean that they're not going to
be perfectly ambitious in a year and want to, you know,
conquer the world a year from now, but right now
(03:45):
they kind of need to take it down and not
Is that your experience as well?
Speaker 2 (03:49):
Yes, that's definitely my experience, and I think that that
is more normal than people realize. And I think what's
important and what I try to espouse and I think
you do, is well to have people recognize that that
ebbing and flowing happens, that we aren't just one note,
or that you know, we can't dial it up and down,
because what happens when people experience that shift is it's
(04:12):
really uncomfortable for them. And when we identify as I'm
ambitious and all of a sudden, you feel this sense
of like, oh, I'm dialing down my ambition at this time,
it makes people think that there's a character flaw there
or something, when that's not really the case. It just
may be that you need to put your attention elsewhere,
or you need a time to kind of dial it
down so you can figure out what's next.
Speaker 1 (04:34):
And I think it also helps if you are managing
other people to recognize this as well.
Speaker 2 (04:39):
Right for sure. I mean I think that this is
one of the fundamental flaws honestly, and now careers are
managed inside organizations. I fundamentally think this is one of
the frustrations, you know, that why is it that corporate
America can't figure out that people have personal lives. There
are life stages where people need some flexibility in how
(05:01):
they accommodate the integration of these two sides of what's
just normal human life.
Speaker 1 (05:07):
Yeah. Well, and I always find it interesting because a
lot of the conversation about work life balance, and particularly
with women, I mean, people start talking about like taking
career pauses or taking time out from the workplace. It's like, well,
maybe we could also just recognize that you could dial
it up and down at different points too, that it
doesn't have to be all in or nothing.
Speaker 2 (05:24):
Yes, for sure. And I go back to you know,
Amrie Slaughter wrote about this in her book where she
talks about this idea of having on and off ramps.
And I think that that strategy is really wise. And
yet I also think that when people do potentially take
an off ramp, you know, to be discerning again and
intentional when you do that. I like to say, like
position yourself well, like invest in your potential even when
(05:48):
you're taking an off ramp, so that when you are
ready to get back on, you are you know, marketable,
that you actually feel like you have a sense of
where you might want to jump back in. And the
other benefit of that is that oftentimes we take an
identity hit when we're not working per se, and so
investing in your potential when you're on in an off ramp, say,
(06:10):
has that added benefit of building your identity as well.
Speaker 1 (06:14):
Yeah, and then let's talk about right effort, because sometimes
it's hard for people to figure out what is worth
putting a lot of effort into and what is not.
Speaker 2 (06:23):
Yes, yeah, I mean I think you know, there's a
couple of different ways of thinking about this. I have
three questions in the book around this to kind of
help people identify like, well, what is your aspiration around
a goal? You know, how good do you want to be?
And then to really discern, well what is worth your
hard work? And also you know, to really think about, well,
(06:48):
what is your motivation behind a goal as well? Do
you have the desired effort to put against that? And
are you really thinking about the required effort So that
they can have some ways of exploring like what really
deserves my hard work around our ambitions as opposed to
treating every goal as if it's equal and everything deserves
(07:09):
like this high level of effort, which I think a
lot of ambitious people tend to operate that.
Speaker 1 (07:13):
Way, well, except when they find out it's impossible. I mean,
you cannot have everything and you know, be approached with
the same level of intensity. I mean, and you'll just
it's not that you won't, it's not sustainable, and from
a burnout perspective, it's that you won't achieve all those things.
You just there's many places one can go in life,
(07:34):
and one cannot do all of them correct.
Speaker 2 (07:37):
Yes, I think that's right, And I think that you know,
this is I think what most people really get wrong.
Sometimes people ask me, well, what a most ambitious people
kind of get wrong? And I think this angle of
like not allowing ourselves to dial things down in certain
areas is an area that we there's just fundamental flaws
in doing that. You know, we just you know, we
(07:59):
don't have to do it all. We don't have to
achieve constantly. You know, we can reward ourselves. We can
subtract and not focus on everything, and you know, you
don't have to be driving hard all the time, you
can take breaks, and fundamentally, all those things are required
if you're not going to run yourself into the ground
(08:20):
and be exhausted all the time.
Speaker 1 (08:22):
Absolutely, Well, we're going to take a quick ad break
and I will be back with more from Kathyoetto. Well,
I am back with Kathy Onnetto, who is the author
of the new book Sustainable Ambition. We're talking about how
we can make sure that we are spending the right
(08:42):
amount of effort on things and doing things at the
right time as well. Let's talk about managing energy, because
that's something that comes up in a lot of this
that energy. I always say time. You know, we cannot
make more time, but we can change our energy levels
or at least monitor them through the day and understand
that there are things we can do to add to
our energy levels and things that away from our energy levels.
How does that play into the story of sustainable ambition
(09:04):
and what would you recommend as we think about.
Speaker 2 (09:06):
Energy, I think managing energy is just as important as
managing time, and I think people need to be really
discerning about this. They need to better understand, like, well,
what is their when are they best in terms of
time in the day, in terms of managing their energy,
understanding what's called their chronotype. You know, are common chronotypes.
(09:27):
You can take quizes to kind of figure that out,
but understanding like am I a morning person? Am I
an evening person? And really making sure you're using those
times when you are most energetic to do the things
that are most important. But I also think, you know,
Doris Kern's Goodwin, the presidential biographer, has said, you know,
the most underappreciated leadership strength is the ability to relax
(09:50):
and replenish energy. And I tend to agree with this,
which is, like, again, what most of us get wrong
is that we just drive, drive, drive, versus remembering that
we need to actually have plan what I call a
plan to sustain ourselves. And even small things like taking
breaks is important. And I think people think it's such
a small thing and it sounds so simple, But I
(10:10):
put time here because the reality is a lot of
us don't take our breaks. Fifty percent of knowledge workers,
according to Slack, like don't take breaks during the day,
and most.
Speaker 1 (10:20):
Of us don't take our vacation.
Speaker 2 (10:21):
Those things figuring out a strategy and having a plan
to how do we actually make sure that we're managing
our energy in a wise way I think is really
important for us to think about.
Speaker 1 (10:32):
So I would argue with that slack statistic in the
sense that people don't take breaks where they consciously get
up from their work and go do something else. Now,
I will say the number of knowledge workers who are
in their inbox and then see a breaking news alert,
go click over to it, read the article, wind up
checking their sports scores, their stocks, you know, like looking
at their WhatsApp thread from the kids' soccer league on
(10:53):
their phone while they're away from doing all this. Like
that number is high, and those breaks, but they didn't
feel like breaks, right.
Speaker 2 (11:02):
I think that's probably right, Laura. I mean again, that's
where like intentional breaks is really important, and how you're
using that time is really important.
Speaker 1 (11:11):
Yeah, because that doesn't add to your energy levels, whereas
actually going outside and taking a ten minute walk does exactly. Exactly. Yeah,
just to be clear on this, but there's things we
could do sort of holistically to add to our energy
levels as well. I mean, not just like taking breaks
during the day, but sort of as a whole person,
what might help.
Speaker 2 (11:31):
Well, Yeah, I mean I mean what I really advocate
for people and developing their sustaining plan is to really
tap into their own knowledge of themselves and how they work.
I don't think that there's this like miracle plan out there,
that this is this one size it's all. You really
have to tune in and think about what works for you.
So I have people assess, like, well, what does restore
(11:51):
protect and support your energy? Do an audit of that
and see what really works for you, and then evaluate
what might be working, what might not be working, and
make some shifts. I also talk about, you know, not
just making this personal, but really you have to prototype
and practice this. Oftentimes again people say well what should
I do, and it's like, well, what do you want
to try?
Speaker 1 (12:12):
What works for you?
Speaker 2 (12:13):
And then go and test it out, test it out
for a certain period of time, see how it's working
for you. Is that supporting your energy levels and helping
to make sure that you feel sustained? And then it
is a practice. I think that what people often get
wrong too is that they just think it's going to
again be this miracle cure. But you have to make
it a practice, and you also have to come back
(12:34):
to it and reassess it because things change over time
as well, like what worked for you last season may
not work for you now, so you may need to
adjust as well over time.
Speaker 1 (12:43):
Yeah, people like I took a break once and it
didn't do anything for me. Right. Well. Another thing I
often talk about with people is putting big things into
your personal life that are energy boosting. That if we
have some passion price that's outside of work, that can
often I mean, even though it takes time, it can
(13:07):
make us feel more excited about the rest of life,
which can then you know, boost energy for everything you have.
You found that to be.
Speaker 2 (13:14):
The case, Yes, yes, I often actually quote you, Laura
that in my work too, because you know, I do
think this is important. And one of the things that
I talk about in the book and around this work
is I say, you know, claim a life ambition. And
I mean it sounds silly, like most of us have
life ambitions. But yet when I tell people, hey, you
(13:35):
can have life ambitions. Ambition is not just for work,
a lot of people are kind of shocked. And you know,
I can have a life ambition. Yes, you can have
a life ambition, and again most of us do.
Speaker 1 (13:46):
But when we.
Speaker 2 (13:46):
Invest in those things, when we actually make them as
urgent and as important as some of the other things
that we think should like claim to our time and
our energy. You know, it ends up fueling us in
a way that can fuel all the other things that
we're wanting to do.
Speaker 1 (14:03):
Yeah, and now we mentioned that, you know, we can't
just rely on one hit things. But if somebody wanted
to do something today to make life feel more sustainable,
what would you recommend they try.
Speaker 2 (14:13):
Well, one thing that I that I offer in the
book is this idea of where time versus wish time.
And you know, some of the what results in our
feelings of time pressure can be you know, this tension
between a mindset of where we are spending our time
versus where we wish we were spending our time. And
so I would have people do a very simple exercise,
(14:33):
which is go look back at your calendar for last week,
evaluate where did you spend your time? Then pause and
reflect and say where do you wish you were spending
your time? And this week, make one small shift toward
where you wish you were spending your time. Start to
do some of the things that you really want to
be doing to help support you and help you operate
(14:55):
at your best.
Speaker 1 (14:56):
Absolutely, well, we're going to take one more quick ad
break and then I'll be back with more from Kathy.
So I am talking with Kathy on Nato, who's the
author of the brand new book Sustainable Ambition. So let's
talk about your schedule, Kathy. Do you have any routines
(15:17):
that help make you more productive?
Speaker 2 (15:19):
Yeah? I probably have too many, Laura, but I will
say there's some that might seem contradictory. So I'm very
much a planner. I like to prepare ahead of time,
both my week as well as my days, and there's
pros and cons to that. I will say, like, for me,
it works, but it can also mean for others around me.
I can sometimes seem a little inflexible in terms of like,
(15:41):
at least one day, Like if I've kind of planned
my day, that's kind of what I'm hoping to you
have it offering as And yet I will say, in
contrast to that, I'm also a huge believer in following
my energy, and so I also really do have a plan.
But if I wake up and I'm kind of like,
(16:02):
that's not in me to work on that right now,
It's like if I try to work on that, I'm
just going to you know, flounder, like then I'm going
to adjust what I'm working on, so I also try
to be flexible within that.
Speaker 1 (16:14):
Do you have any particular like morning routines. I know
people who listen to the show are big into that.
Speaker 2 (16:20):
You know, my biggest one is probably just getting up
and having coffee, right, But also like within that time,
it's my quiet time, you know, I really I tend
to be a night our Honestly, I like to work
in the mornings and I like to work in the evenings.
And so when I wake up first, first thing in
the morning, before I get into that work period, I
do like to have quiet time and space just for
(16:42):
myself before I jump into my work. Those are really
kind of my morning routines.
Speaker 1 (16:47):
Well, what does your schedule look like then during the day?
I mean, I'm trying to figure out how how one
makes this work. If you like to work in the
morning and work in the evening, what does a daily
schedule tend to look like?
Speaker 2 (16:56):
Yeah, I mean, well, because I am self employed and
because I have a flexible schedule, it can very day
to day, but generally, you know, I am getting up early,
having that space, I jump into work fairly early. Also
because I tend to work with people on the East
coast and I'm on the West coast, so sometimes I
have to jump into things pretty early, and then I
tend to be pretty flexible with my afternoon time. I
(17:18):
might get a workout in in the middle of the day,
or I'm getting it in in the late afternoon, and
then I might then come back to work or often
do come back to work in the evening.
Speaker 1 (17:29):
And when you said you do a lot of planning,
what does your planning routine tend to look like?
Speaker 2 (17:35):
I would say I'm just very clear on both two things,
one like what I am trying to accomplish the next day,
like what do I have on my schedule? But I
will say that planning again, like I said, I like
to plan across like both different time periods, so days, weeks.
I know you're an advocate of a week, but I
also tend to look at longer horizons as well, because
(17:57):
I think planning for sustainability across a lot longer horizon
is more manageable, so that you can see, like, hey,
I might have an intense week or an intense month,
but I know I can build in times and other
places for downtime so that I can make it sustainable
over a longer time horizon. So I'm planning on different
time horizons like that.
Speaker 1 (18:18):
Yeah, I always love the idea of zooming out. I mean,
I guess one of my sort of time management tips
for people, life management tips or sustainability tips if you will,
is if if any given period looks crunched, tries zooming
your focus out longer, because usually at least by the
time you're looking at like a year, it's not going
to be intense every single moment of the entire year. Now,
I'm not saying this week won't be bad, but you
(18:41):
know that can be particularly helpful. People are in cyclical
sorts of jobs. I mean, somebody who's like an accountant. Well,
you know March is gonna be terrible, but that doesn't
mean August will be and so you can, you know,
look out for a bigger time horizon.
Speaker 2 (18:55):
I agree with that, yes, wholeheartedly.
Speaker 1 (18:58):
So let's story. I always ask people question, what is
something you have done recently to take a day from
great to awesome?
Speaker 2 (19:06):
You know, I think what I would say to this is,
and I did this just this weekend, which is to
actually pause and really take in a great day and
to acknowledge it. So that to me is a way
to take things from great to awesome. You know, I
really love the practice by doctor Rick Hanson. It's called heel,
(19:27):
which is in shorthand. It's just have an experience and
take it in and by doing that repeatedly over time,
it builds our resilience. And so that's a practice that
I really love to employ. So like this weekend, my
husband and I went out to dinner one night and
we both just paused at the end and said, wow,
that was such a great night and really took it
(19:49):
in and acknowledged it. And having done that, it also
stays with me much much longer and helps me. Really
it really does take it from great to awesome. It
really does help me underst like, whoa, that was really
an amazing night, And it doesn't have to be this
huge thing. That can be really small.
Speaker 1 (20:07):
Yeah. I love the idea of savoring. Just you know,
you not only have a good experience, but you pause
and notice that you are having a good experience. It
adds this extra layer of acknowledgment to the enjoyment and
just takes it a little little deeper. Exactly exactly and
what are you looking forward to right now.
Speaker 2 (20:27):
I will say with the book coming out, one is
just continuing to have conversations about this. It's really the
thing that brings me the most joy is being in
conversation with people around how do we really rethink success
and ambition, how do we make it sustainable for ourselves?
How do we rethink how we're shaping our lives and
work in that regard. But I will also admit I
(20:49):
am taking a step back and looking at things with
a longer horizon. As you well know, a book launch
is intense, and so I'm really looking forward to some
downtime that I see off on the horizon. And the
final thing is just that you know, around ambition, I
really believe that, you know, some things can be brewing
and new things can come up. That's part of the
(21:10):
ebbing and flowing as well. We're not again just going
to keep going on one path, and so I already
sense new ambitions brewing, and in this time I'm having
to put them off on the horizon as well and
put them on the back burner until I have capacity
to kind of take them on. But I will say
I am looking forward to kind of digging into exploring further, like, well,
(21:31):
what new ambition is actually on the horizon?
Speaker 1 (21:34):
Absolutely well, as long as we can keep track of
them and we can come back to them in the future,
right for sure?
Speaker 2 (21:40):
For sure?
Speaker 1 (21:40):
Absolutely so, Kathy, where can people find you?
Speaker 2 (21:43):
People can find me at Sustainable Ambition dot com and
they can also find me on LinkedIn.
Speaker 1 (21:48):
Absolutely all right, Well, Kathy, thank you so much for
joining us. Thank you to everyone for listening. If you
have feedback about this or any other episode, you can
always reach me at Laura at Laura vandercam dot com.
And in the meantime, this is Laura. Thanks for listening,
and here's to making the most of our time. Thanks
(22:14):
for listening to Before Breakfast. If you've got questions, ideas,
or feedback, you can reach me at Laura at Laura
vandercam dot com. Before Breakfast is a production of iHeartMedia.
For more podcasts from iHeartMedia, please visit the iHeartRadio app,
(22:36):
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Good morning. This is Laura. Welcome to the Before Breakfast podcast.
Today's episode will be a longer one part of the
series where I interview fascinating people about how they take
their days from great to awesome and any advice they
have for the rest of us. So today I am
excited to welcome Kathy Onetto to the show. Kathy is
(00:30):
the author of the book Sustainable Ambition, which is out
this month. So Kathy, thank you for joining us.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
Thanks first, thanks so much for having me Laura.
Speaker 1 (00:38):
Yeah, I'm excited to have you on this So why
don't you introduce yourself to our listeners.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
Sure, So, I am somebody who has embraced ambition across
both my professional and personal lives. I've had an over
twenty five year career at this point, and I'm in
my second act, and i have what I call a
portfolio career. I do strategy consulting and transformation work, but
I'm also the founder of Sustainable Ambition, where I'm a
(01:04):
life work strategist, coach and facilitator. And in this realm,
I leverage that strategy background and apply it to life
and work integration and management, and I explore rethinking success
and ambition, And I'm really passionate about helping ambitious professionals,
organizations and teams explore how to live and work differently
from more success, satisfaction and sustainability.
Speaker 1 (01:27):
Yeah. Well, what does sustainable ambition mean? I mean, how
is that different from garden variety ambition?
Speaker 2 (01:33):
That's interesting? Yeah, well, I mean sustainable ambition really means like,
how do we stay engaged in our lives, in our
work over time, and how do we pursue what we
really want and desire in our lives without sacrificing our
lives in the process or ourselves.
Speaker 1 (01:52):
Yeah. And so Sustainable Ambition, which is your book on
this topic, is out this month in June. And in
the book you talk about are being three pillars to
sustainable ambition? Maybe you could talk through those quickly for us. Sure.
Speaker 2 (02:06):
So, I say that we can find more life, work, sustainability,
and really approach our goals with more resilience when we
align the right ambitions at the right time, with the
right effort and right ambition is really about shifting from
using external motivators to drive us to shifting toward our
internal motivators, looking at what really are going to be
(02:30):
internal drivers of reward for us, right time is about
shifting from doing it all to doing what matters. It
asks us to look at life and work together and
consider our life stage and really prioritize what matters at
this time. And then right effort is really about shifting
from constant drive to really strategic effort. It's about how
(02:52):
do I be discerning about where I'm putting in my effort?
And then also am I being thoughtful and intentional? How
I am sustaining myself over time?
Speaker 1 (03:03):
Absolutely well. I wanted to drill in a little bit
on that right time one because I think the experience
I know a lot of people have had, and you
know that I've talked with people about how they spend
their time over the years, is that, you know, it's
not that we are ambitious or not ambitious. Often our
ambition goes up and down at different stages depending on
(03:23):
what else is going on in their lives. And I've
heard people going through very very intense times in their
personal life for whatever reason that happens to be good, bad, whatever,
that they are in a more coasting mindset for a
little while. It doesn't mean that they're not going to
be perfectly ambitious in a year and want to, you know,
conquer the world a year from now, but right now
(03:45):
they kind of need to take it down and not
Is that your experience as well?
Speaker 2 (03:49):
Yes, that's definitely my experience, and I think that that
is more normal than people realize. And I think what's
important and what I try to espouse and I think
you do, is well to have people recognize that that
ebbing and flowing happens, that we aren't just one note,
or that you know, we can't dial it up and down,
because what happens when people experience that shift is it's
(04:12):
really uncomfortable for them. And when we identify as I'm
ambitious and all of a sudden, you feel this sense
of like, oh, I'm dialing down my ambition at this time,
it makes people think that there's a character flaw there
or something, when that's not really the case. It just
may be that you need to put your attention elsewhere,
or you need a time to kind of dial it
down so you can figure out what's next.
Speaker 1 (04:34):
And I think it also helps if you are managing
other people to recognize this as well.
Speaker 2 (04:39):
Right for sure. I mean I think that this is
one of the fundamental flaws honestly, and now careers are
managed inside organizations. I fundamentally think this is one of
the frustrations, you know, that why is it that corporate
America can't figure out that people have personal lives. There
are life stages where people need some flexibility in how
(05:01):
they accommodate the integration of these two sides of what's
just normal human life.
Speaker 1 (05:07):
Yeah. Well, and I always find it interesting because a
lot of the conversation about work life balance, and particularly
with women, I mean, people start talking about like taking
career pauses or taking time out from the workplace. It's like, well,
maybe we could also just recognize that you could dial
it up and down at different points too, that it
doesn't have to be all in or nothing.
Speaker 2 (05:24):
Yes, for sure. And I go back to you know,
Amrie Slaughter wrote about this in her book where she
talks about this idea of having on and off ramps.
And I think that that strategy is really wise. And
yet I also think that when people do potentially take
an off ramp, you know, to be discerning again and
intentional when you do that. I like to say, like
position yourself well, like invest in your potential even when
(05:48):
you're taking an off ramp, so that when you are
ready to get back on, you are you know, marketable,
that you actually feel like you have a sense of
where you might want to jump back in. And the
other benefit of that is that oftentimes we take an
identity hit when we're not working per se, and so
investing in your potential when you're on in an off ramp, say,
(06:10):
has that added benefit of building your identity as well.
Speaker 1 (06:14):
Yeah, and then let's talk about right effort, because sometimes
it's hard for people to figure out what is worth
putting a lot of effort into and what is not.
Speaker 2 (06:23):
Yes, yeah, I mean I think you know, there's a
couple of different ways of thinking about this. I have
three questions in the book around this to kind of
help people identify like, well, what is your aspiration around
a goal? You know, how good do you want to be?
And then to really discern, well what is worth your
hard work? And also you know, to really think about, well,
(06:48):
what is your motivation behind a goal as well? Do
you have the desired effort to put against that? And
are you really thinking about the required effort So that
they can have some ways of exploring like what really
deserves my hard work around our ambitions as opposed to
treating every goal as if it's equal and everything deserves
(07:09):
like this high level of effort, which I think a
lot of ambitious people tend to operate that.
Speaker 1 (07:13):
Way, well, except when they find out it's impossible. I mean,
you cannot have everything and you know, be approached with
the same level of intensity. I mean, and you'll just
it's not that you won't, it's not sustainable, and from
a burnout perspective, it's that you won't achieve all those things.
You just there's many places one can go in life,
(07:34):
and one cannot do all of them correct.
Speaker 2 (07:37):
Yes, I think that's right, And I think that you know,
this is I think what most people really get wrong.
Sometimes people ask me, well, what a most ambitious people
kind of get wrong? And I think this angle of
like not allowing ourselves to dial things down in certain
areas is an area that we there's just fundamental flaws
in doing that. You know, we just you know, we
(07:59):
don't have to do it all. We don't have to
achieve constantly. You know, we can reward ourselves. We can
subtract and not focus on everything, and you know, you
don't have to be driving hard all the time, you
can take breaks, and fundamentally, all those things are required
if you're not going to run yourself into the ground
(08:20):
and be exhausted all the time.
Speaker 1 (08:22):
Absolutely, Well, we're going to take a quick ad break
and I will be back with more from Kathyoetto. Well,
I am back with Kathy Onnetto, who is the author
of the new book Sustainable Ambition. We're talking about how
we can make sure that we are spending the right
(08:42):
amount of effort on things and doing things at the
right time as well. Let's talk about managing energy, because
that's something that comes up in a lot of this
that energy. I always say time. You know, we cannot
make more time, but we can change our energy levels
or at least monitor them through the day and understand
that there are things we can do to add to
our energy levels and things that away from our energy levels.
How does that play into the story of sustainable ambition
(09:04):
and what would you recommend as we think about.
Speaker 2 (09:06):
Energy, I think managing energy is just as important as
managing time, and I think people need to be really
discerning about this. They need to better understand, like, well,
what is their when are they best in terms of
time in the day, in terms of managing their energy,
understanding what's called their chronotype. You know, are common chronotypes.
(09:27):
You can take quizes to kind of figure that out,
but understanding like am I a morning person? Am I
an evening person? And really making sure you're using those
times when you are most energetic to do the things
that are most important. But I also think, you know,
Doris Kern's Goodwin, the presidential biographer, has said, you know,
the most underappreciated leadership strength is the ability to relax
(09:50):
and replenish energy. And I tend to agree with this,
which is, like, again, what most of us get wrong
is that we just drive, drive, drive, versus remembering that
we need to actually have plan what I call a
plan to sustain ourselves. And even small things like taking
breaks is important. And I think people think it's such
a small thing and it sounds so simple, But I
(10:10):
put time here because the reality is a lot of
us don't take our breaks. Fifty percent of knowledge workers,
according to Slack, like don't take breaks during the day,
and most.
Speaker 1 (10:20):
Of us don't take our vacation.
Speaker 2 (10:21):
Those things figuring out a strategy and having a plan
to how do we actually make sure that we're managing
our energy in a wise way I think is really
important for us to think about.
Speaker 1 (10:32):
So I would argue with that slack statistic in the
sense that people don't take breaks where they consciously get
up from their work and go do something else. Now,
I will say the number of knowledge workers who are
in their inbox and then see a breaking news alert,
go click over to it, read the article, wind up
checking their sports scores, their stocks, you know, like looking
at their WhatsApp thread from the kids' soccer league on
(10:53):
their phone while they're away from doing all this. Like
that number is high, and those breaks, but they didn't
feel like breaks, right.
Speaker 2 (11:02):
I think that's probably right, Laura. I mean again, that's
where like intentional breaks is really important, and how you're
using that time is really important.
Speaker 1 (11:11):
Yeah, because that doesn't add to your energy levels, whereas
actually going outside and taking a ten minute walk does exactly. Exactly. Yeah,
just to be clear on this, but there's things we
could do sort of holistically to add to our energy
levels as well. I mean, not just like taking breaks
during the day, but sort of as a whole person,
what might help.
Speaker 2 (11:31):
Well, Yeah, I mean I mean what I really advocate
for people and developing their sustaining plan is to really
tap into their own knowledge of themselves and how they work.
I don't think that there's this like miracle plan out there,
that this is this one size it's all. You really
have to tune in and think about what works for you.
So I have people assess, like, well, what does restore
(11:51):
protect and support your energy? Do an audit of that
and see what really works for you, and then evaluate
what might be working, what might not be working, and
make some shifts. I also talk about, you know, not
just making this personal, but really you have to prototype
and practice this. Oftentimes again people say well what should
I do, and it's like, well, what do you want
to try?
Speaker 1 (12:12):
What works for you?
Speaker 2 (12:13):
And then go and test it out, test it out
for a certain period of time, see how it's working
for you. Is that supporting your energy levels and helping
to make sure that you feel sustained? And then it
is a practice. I think that what people often get
wrong too is that they just think it's going to
again be this miracle cure. But you have to make
it a practice, and you also have to come back
(12:34):
to it and reassess it because things change over time
as well, like what worked for you last season may
not work for you now, so you may need to
adjust as well over time.
Speaker 1 (12:43):
Yeah, people like I took a break once and it
didn't do anything for me. Right. Well. Another thing I
often talk about with people is putting big things into
your personal life that are energy boosting. That if we
have some passion price that's outside of work, that can
often I mean, even though it takes time, it can
(13:07):
make us feel more excited about the rest of life,
which can then you know, boost energy for everything you have.
You found that to be.
Speaker 2 (13:14):
The case, Yes, yes, I often actually quote you, Laura
that in my work too, because you know, I do
think this is important. And one of the things that
I talk about in the book and around this work
is I say, you know, claim a life ambition. And
I mean it sounds silly, like most of us have
life ambitions. But yet when I tell people, hey, you
(13:35):
can have life ambitions. Ambition is not just for work,
a lot of people are kind of shocked. And you know,
I can have a life ambition. Yes, you can have
a life ambition, and again most of us do.
Speaker 1 (13:46):
But when we.
Speaker 2 (13:46):
Invest in those things, when we actually make them as
urgent and as important as some of the other things
that we think should like claim to our time and
our energy. You know, it ends up fueling us in
a way that can fuel all the other things that
we're wanting to do.
Speaker 1 (14:03):
Yeah, and now we mentioned that, you know, we can't
just rely on one hit things. But if somebody wanted
to do something today to make life feel more sustainable,
what would you recommend they try.
Speaker 2 (14:13):
Well, one thing that I that I offer in the
book is this idea of where time versus wish time.
And you know, some of the what results in our
feelings of time pressure can be you know, this tension
between a mindset of where we are spending our time
versus where we wish we were spending our time. And
so I would have people do a very simple exercise,
(14:33):
which is go look back at your calendar for last week,
evaluate where did you spend your time? Then pause and
reflect and say where do you wish you were spending
your time? And this week, make one small shift toward
where you wish you were spending your time. Start to
do some of the things that you really want to
be doing to help support you and help you operate
(14:55):
at your best.
Speaker 1 (14:56):
Absolutely, well, we're going to take one more quick ad
break and then I'll be back with more from Kathy.
So I am talking with Kathy on Nato, who's the
author of the brand new book Sustainable Ambition. So let's
talk about your schedule, Kathy. Do you have any routines
(15:17):
that help make you more productive?
Speaker 2 (15:19):
Yeah? I probably have too many, Laura, but I will
say there's some that might seem contradictory. So I'm very
much a planner. I like to prepare ahead of time,
both my week as well as my days, and there's
pros and cons to that. I will say, like, for me,
it works, but it can also mean for others around me.
I can sometimes seem a little inflexible in terms of like,
(15:41):
at least one day, Like if I've kind of planned
my day, that's kind of what I'm hoping to you
have it offering as And yet I will say, in
contrast to that, I'm also a huge believer in following
my energy, and so I also really do have a plan.
But if I wake up and I'm kind of like,
(16:02):
that's not in me to work on that right now,
It's like if I try to work on that, I'm
just going to you know, flounder, like then I'm going
to adjust what I'm working on, so I also try
to be flexible within that.
Speaker 1 (16:14):
Do you have any particular like morning routines. I know
people who listen to the show are big into that.
Speaker 2 (16:20):
You know, my biggest one is probably just getting up
and having coffee, right, But also like within that time,
it's my quiet time, you know, I really I tend
to be a night our Honestly, I like to work
in the mornings and I like to work in the evenings.
And so when I wake up first, first thing in
the morning, before I get into that work period, I
do like to have quiet time and space just for
(16:42):
myself before I jump into my work. Those are really
kind of my morning routines.
Speaker 1 (16:47):
Well, what does your schedule look like then during the day?
I mean, I'm trying to figure out how how one
makes this work. If you like to work in the
morning and work in the evening, what does a daily
schedule tend to look like?
Speaker 2 (16:56):
Yeah, I mean, well, because I am self employed and
because I have a flexible schedule, it can very day
to day, but generally, you know, I am getting up early,
having that space, I jump into work fairly early. Also
because I tend to work with people on the East
coast and I'm on the West coast, so sometimes I
have to jump into things pretty early, and then I
tend to be pretty flexible with my afternoon time. I
(17:18):
might get a workout in in the middle of the day,
or I'm getting it in in the late afternoon, and
then I might then come back to work or often
do come back to work in the evening.
Speaker 1 (17:29):
And when you said you do a lot of planning,
what does your planning routine tend to look like?
Speaker 2 (17:35):
I would say I'm just very clear on both two things,
one like what I am trying to accomplish the next day,
like what do I have on my schedule? But I
will say that planning again, like I said, I like
to plan across like both different time periods, so days, weeks.
I know you're an advocate of a week, but I
also tend to look at longer horizons as well, because
(17:57):
I think planning for sustainability across a lot longer horizon
is more manageable, so that you can see, like, hey,
I might have an intense week or an intense month,
but I know I can build in times and other
places for downtime so that I can make it sustainable
over a longer time horizon. So I'm planning on different
time horizons like that.
Speaker 1 (18:18):
Yeah, I always love the idea of zooming out. I mean,
I guess one of my sort of time management tips
for people, life management tips or sustainability tips if you will,
is if if any given period looks crunched, tries zooming
your focus out longer, because usually at least by the
time you're looking at like a year, it's not going
to be intense every single moment of the entire year. Now,
I'm not saying this week won't be bad, but you
(18:41):
know that can be particularly helpful. People are in cyclical
sorts of jobs. I mean, somebody who's like an accountant. Well,
you know March is gonna be terrible, but that doesn't
mean August will be and so you can, you know,
look out for a bigger time horizon.
Speaker 2 (18:55):
I agree with that, yes, wholeheartedly.
Speaker 1 (18:58):
So let's story. I always ask people question, what is
something you have done recently to take a day from
great to awesome?
Speaker 2 (19:06):
You know, I think what I would say to this is,
and I did this just this weekend, which is to
actually pause and really take in a great day and
to acknowledge it. So that to me is a way
to take things from great to awesome. You know, I
really love the practice by doctor Rick Hanson. It's called heel,
(19:27):
which is in shorthand. It's just have an experience and
take it in and by doing that repeatedly over time,
it builds our resilience. And so that's a practice that
I really love to employ. So like this weekend, my
husband and I went out to dinner one night and
we both just paused at the end and said, wow,
that was such a great night and really took it
(19:49):
in and acknowledged it. And having done that, it also
stays with me much much longer and helps me. Really
it really does take it from great to awesome. It
really does help me underst like, whoa, that was really
an amazing night, And it doesn't have to be this
huge thing. That can be really small.
Speaker 1 (20:07):
Yeah. I love the idea of savoring. Just you know,
you not only have a good experience, but you pause
and notice that you are having a good experience. It
adds this extra layer of acknowledgment to the enjoyment and
just takes it a little little deeper. Exactly exactly and
what are you looking forward to right now.
Speaker 2 (20:27):
I will say with the book coming out, one is
just continuing to have conversations about this. It's really the
thing that brings me the most joy is being in
conversation with people around how do we really rethink success
and ambition, how do we make it sustainable for ourselves?
How do we rethink how we're shaping our lives and
work in that regard. But I will also admit I
(20:49):
am taking a step back and looking at things with
a longer horizon. As you well know, a book launch
is intense, and so I'm really looking forward to some
downtime that I see off on the horizon. And the
final thing is just that you know, around ambition, I
really believe that, you know, some things can be brewing
and new things can come up. That's part of the
(21:10):
ebbing and flowing as well. We're not again just going
to keep going on one path, and so I already
sense new ambitions brewing, and in this time I'm having
to put them off on the horizon as well and
put them on the back burner until I have capacity
to kind of take them on. But I will say
I am looking forward to kind of digging into exploring further, like, well,
(21:31):
what new ambition is actually on the horizon?
Speaker 1 (21:34):
Absolutely well, as long as we can keep track of
them and we can come back to them in the future,
right for sure?
Speaker 2 (21:40):
For sure?
Speaker 1 (21:40):
Absolutely so, Kathy, where can people find you?
Speaker 2 (21:43):
People can find me at Sustainable Ambition dot com and
they can also find me on LinkedIn.
Speaker 1 (21:48):
Absolutely all right, Well, Kathy, thank you so much for
joining us. Thank you to everyone for listening. If you
have feedback about this or any other episode, you can
always reach me at Laura at Laura vandercam dot com.
And in the meantime, this is Laura. Thanks for listening,
and here's to making the most of our time. Thanks
(22:14):
for listening to Before Breakfast. If you've got questions, ideas,
or feedback, you can reach me at Laura at Laura
vandercam dot com. Before Breakfast is a production of iHeartMedia.
For more podcasts from iHeartMedia, please visit the iHeartRadio app,
(22:36):
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Before Breakfast News
Host
Laura Vanderkam
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