November 6, 2024 • 25 mins
Friendship expert Anna Goldfarb shares tips for deepening relationships with friends
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
Welcome to Before Breakfast, a production of iHeartRadio. Good Morning,
This is Laura. Welcome to the Before Breakfast podcast. Today's
episode will be a longer one part of my series
where I interview fascinating people about how they manage their
time and how all of us can take our days
(00:24):
from great to awesome. So I am so excited to
welcome Anna Goldfarm to Before Breakfast today. Anna is the
author of the book Modern Friendship, on how to nurture
our most valued connections. So Anna, welcome to the show.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
Thank you for having me. I'm so excited to be here.
Speaker 1 (00:43):
Well, why don't you tell our listeners a little bit
about you.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
Yeah, I'm a journalist and I've reported on friendships, relationships,
and pop psychology for nearly a decade. I've really gotten
to dig deep with friendship, but mostly for The New
York Times. So from my reporting, I wanted something more
comprehensive to describe the strange waters that we're swimming in,
(01:11):
Like I really wanted to capture in a much deeper
way than an article of Guys, here's what's going on.
I want to orient everyone like, Okay, this is the
game we're playing. It is very different rules than any
other time before in history. So here you go. Here's
what's up.
Speaker 1 (01:31):
So are I mean, are we imaginating are people feeling
more isolated or lonely than in the past, And what's
going on? What has changed with friendship to make that happen.
Speaker 2 (01:39):
Yeah, Well, we have a lot of sociological factors that
do not work in our favor. We live in a
society where we're more butterflies. We have unlimited choice on
who we can befriend and who we can associate with.
But also it's easier to shed those connections because we
don't stay in one place for too long. And you know,
(02:02):
our grandparents, their social lives were more like an oak
tree with deep roots where they stayed put and they
knew their communities. They didn't have as much choice of food.
Of a friend, they usually had to be someone that
look that came from their economic background, looked like them.
So it's just pros and cons. It's not saying like
it was better back then, and it's you know, and
(02:25):
it's not comparing. It's just different, different pros and cons.
And I know people sense that things are different. They
probably sense that it's so much harder to keep friendships
going than when they were younger, and it's not their imagination.
They have a collection of friends they've made from different
parts of their life, but they only share common history
(02:48):
with us, not with each other.
Speaker 1 (02:51):
So it's harder to have sort of a group of friends, yeah,
because you sort of are the middle of a spoke
of a wheel. You're the hub of the wheel on
their spokes. I think I've seen you use analogically, and.
Speaker 2 (03:02):
You know, it's just a lot harder to bring different
different people in your life. Two of my best friends
didn't even know each other until my book release party.
So my advice, release a book, have a party that
everyone can finally meet.
Speaker 1 (03:14):
Bring everyone. It's like a wedding or something. Right like
the wedding, you realize, like all these people they know you,
but they don't know everyone else.
Speaker 2 (03:21):
Yeah, so it's.
Speaker 1 (03:23):
A it's a little strange to think about it that way,
but you you know, you focus on sort of the
practicalities of how you can build relationships. And as we
were talking before, you just mentioned something we always like
to talk about routines on this show. And you have
now have a morning routine of talking to your sister,
which obviously family members can be friends. I wonder if
(03:46):
you could talk a little bit about how that routine
came to be and how that has been important in
your life.
Speaker 2 (03:51):
Yeah. I you know, I don't think my sister will
mind me sharing this because I've talked about this before,
and also it's true, so it stry to argue with
the truth. But my sister and I really had trouble
finding common ground for a long time. You know, she
(04:13):
got married and then started having children. I got married
and decided that I was not going to have children,
and we just really had to disconnect over just our lives,
like our different roles that were choosing, and if we
could find common ground with that. I started reporting on
friendships around twenty seventeen for the New York Times, and
(04:36):
in the course of my reporting, I met this woman,
Shasta Nelson, who's an incredible friendship expert. She's an OG,
she's brilliant, the real deal. And what I learned from
Shasta's work is that friendships require three things positivity, consistency,
and vulnerability. So I started applying that to my relationship
(05:00):
with my sister, where you know, it was rocky, and
the first thing I did was consistency of she know,
she has these small children, So I said, why don't
I come over every weekend and I come help with
your kids? So I had the consistency I'm coming over
every Saturday. Then I worked on positivity of you know,
I saw this slip glass. I thought I'd be pretty
(05:20):
for you. I thought this would be a good shade
for you. Here I bought you like a little some
cookies at the market, like just little treats. And that
led to vulnerability of what's going on with you? Like,
what's really going on with your your you know, what
are you struggling with? How can I help? And those
three things, paying attention to them completely completely transformed our
(05:45):
relationship and part of the I've maintained the consistency every weekend,
I still go over, and she started calling me every
morning after dropping the kids off to school, when she's
driving home, she'll call me. So we've created our own
routine means, but you had to lay the I had
to lay the groundwork for those routines to stick.
Speaker 1 (06:07):
Yeah, because friendship, it turns out, takes work and it
takes time, and of course that is something that many
people struggle with a lot. And so let's talk about
that a little. I mean a lot of people say
like I want more friends, or I want a better
social life or something like that, but that's kind of
a vague hope. I mean, what what are people getting
at when they say that.
Speaker 2 (06:30):
Well, studies show that people think they'd be happier with
more friends, But what actually makes us happier is being
considered someone's best friend. And that's because that's a when
someone identifies us and it says, oh my gosh, she's
my best friend, it reinforces our you know, that someone
judges our good character and our sees our integrity and
(06:53):
sees our inner beauty, and that gives us the self
esteem and confidence that we think having more friends would
give us. Yes, I mean our phones are full of
names of people that we love, but it doesn't feel
that amazing, like as amazing as you think it would feel.
You know, our social media. You open it up, Oh,
here's all my friends, and it doesn't really feel like anything.
(07:14):
It kind of just feel, if anything, it feels negative
of well, look what they're doing and I'm not included.
Why wasn't I included? All they're all on a trip.
I haven't been on the trip. It's just like it's
none of it makes feel that good. So what a
better strategy is to be a dynamic teammate, a dynamite
(07:36):
team meat to three to five people, Like, go back
to basics. Really, you know, when you think about when
you were happiest with your friendships, it might have been
high school or college where you just had a few
friends and you just focused on them and that was enough.
You know, you weren't trying to keep all these plates
in the air of every old coworker and old roommate
(07:58):
and childhood best friend. Like you weren't trying to keep
all these plates spinning. So go back to basics. Pick
a few people and be wonderful to them. Excellent.
Speaker 1 (08:09):
Well, we're going to take a short break and then
be back with Anna Goldfarb talking more things friendship. Well,
I am back. This is one of the longer episodes
of Before Breakfast. I am talking with Anna Goldfarb, who
is a friendship expert author of the book Modern Friendship. So, Anna,
(08:31):
one of the things you've said that I've found so
interesting is you know, you're like, I want more friends,
but what you actually want is more people to do
X with. Like that friendship start out at least based
on shared activities. Can you talk a little bit about that.
Speaker 2 (08:46):
Yeah, it's a huge misconception about friendship that it should
just go on forever because because there's affection there, people
should just make time in their schedule because you've known
each other so long, there's such great affection for one another.
But that's not actually how humans work. Humans work, And
I learned this theory something called choice theory, developed by
(09:10):
doctor William Glasser in the nineteen sixties, and choice theory
says that we all have five inherent genetic needs and
their survival, power, love and belonging, freedom, which is like
self expression, and fun. Those are the reasons we do everything.
(09:31):
So when you think about your friendships, and if it's
not particular, if it's not helping your survival, you know,
in a real way, if it's not helping your power
in a real way, if there's not really love and belonging,
you're not in any groups together. You know, you're married,
you get love from other people more primarily more freedom.
(09:56):
If you don't really do anything creative or you feel
like you're yourself, that could be attending a pride parade,
It could be really any kind of self expression and
five fun. If it's not fun, not going to be
time to do it. So when you look at friendships
through that lens, it can help explain why you pull
away from friendships but gravitate towards others because friendships that
(10:19):
help us with those needs were more likely to make
time for.
Speaker 1 (10:24):
And so maybe you're looking for a friend to run
with or a friend to go to the movies with,
and so you kind of need to filter through the
people that are in your life with a focus on that.
Speaker 2 (10:36):
Yeah, or power is your job. Like a lot of friends.
If you're not in the same industry, that can be challenging.
It's like, well, what else do we have that you
can help me with? As I get older, I've been creating.
I've been creating more friendships and seeking out more friendships
with other journalists and authors because they get the challenges
(10:57):
of the industry and then we can it's easier to
form a friendship with peopleeople who care about the things
that you care about. And with meeting you know, we
have our spouse, that's a lot of our love and
belonging in time, so friends just take on a different sheet,
like it's an own brain. They can I go like
one shade to the other. As you become more things,
(11:19):
the more people friends just just have to have to transform.
Speaker 1 (11:25):
Well, let's talk about issuing invitations that are more likely
to get a yes because you have some guidelines. I
think a lot of people are just like, let's get
together sometime, and that's that's a terrible invitation. So what
mistakes are people making and how can we do this
invitation these invitations better.
Speaker 2 (11:42):
The biggest mistake I see is that people spend zero
thought on how their invitation lands in someone else's phone
or inbox. They just rattle off low effort like hey
we should hang out, Hey I miss you, I want
to see you. But that creates a lot of work
on the part of the recipient of well, when what
(12:03):
are we doing? Where are we getting together? And then
it's like oh, then the grooms come out. It's like, oh, no,
I got you drop this bomb on my lap of
you want to see me. I don't know why you
want to see me, you know, I got to figure
out the details. It just creates a lot of work,
a lot of mental work that you that you may
not have intended for the recipient to do. It was
(12:28):
more just hey, we should get together, and it's like,
what do you mean get together? Why? So what we
can do is frontloader invitations with the why so the
other person can better determine if this is a good
use of their time, and what that looks like is
you know, I'll take an example from my own life.
I recently reached out to a woman who works in
(12:50):
media in my neighborhood and I was like, oh my gosh,
you live in Philly. I live in Philly. We're both
in media. Let's get together. That was the why of
this is what I want to see you. We have
the same industry. And we got together for a happy
hour and I asked her what are some of her
pain points living in Philly and she said, well, most
of my friends have moved away and it's been really
(13:12):
hard the past year. Like my best friend moved, they
all moved over the world. And I was like, you
know what, I think you'd really like my two other friends.
So I went to my two other friends and said, hey,
I met this great woman. Let's all have a happy hour.
I want you all to meet. I think you guys
would really hit it off. I'm giving reasons as I'm
(13:32):
telling the story, I'm peppering reasons for everything I'm doing.
So the new friend, I invited her these women I
think you'd hit it off with there in media would
be a cool hang and that reason was enough for
her to say yes. And then to my two friends,
they're like, oh, she sounds cool, I'd love to meet her.
So we all went out for a happy hour and
it was amazing. We had a great time, and we're like,
(13:54):
let's do this regularly. Let's start it monthly hangout. So
every step along the way we had a reason, a
reason for the initial meeting, a reason to expand the
circle so she could meet more friends in the neighborhood.
And it was a success. So you know, anyone can
(14:15):
do this. I'm not some savant like of savant. I
just give meaningful reasons that people responded to to make
them say yes, to have them not flake or bail.
And usually if people flake or bail, it's because the
reason wasn't clear, or the reason wasn't compelling to get together.
Speaker 1 (14:34):
So's and I've even seen you mention giving specific times
and locations, like if you were inviting someone for coffee.
You're not just like I want to talk with you
about X related to our industry, which again might be
a good why, but you say, you know I could
do these three times. There's a cute place here. Does
(14:55):
any of that work for you?
Speaker 2 (14:57):
Right?
Speaker 1 (14:57):
Like to make it as easy as possible for people
to say yes, yes, And.
Speaker 2 (15:00):
Also it shows that you understand that this new friend
has a whole other life and other commitments, and it's
a sign of respect. It's a subtle sign of respect
of I respect your time. Here's what I'm asking, here's
the container it's in, and it will make it easier
for people to say yes, especially if they have children
(15:21):
or spouses, like they need to know what's the time
coming when you're asking, I need to plan around it.
So it's like a subtle way. And I really think
I try to be the friend that I would love
to have. I would find it very respectful if someone
did that for me, so I just try to return
the favor. Well.
Speaker 1 (15:41):
I like that last point because there's definitely an element
there of being of service. And when you talked earlier
about choosing to be a wonderful friend to the three
to five people, I mean part of that is being
helpful and you ask this new friend about her pain
points in Philly. I think a lot of people don't
(16:03):
do that naturally, So maybe you can talk about what
that looks like.
Speaker 2 (16:07):
Well, it can really be like what you know. I
in a clunky way, it's saying like how can I
help you? But in a more subtle way, it's just
listening to how how do you find living here? Like?
Are what are some like anything you've been struggling with.
I wouldn't be that overt or explicit, but I would
just listen and feel like, tell me what's going on,
(16:29):
how's your job? How has your social life been? And
just listen for those bids of well I'm struggling at
this area like I'm I'm really having a tough time
here and being like, oh, here's how I can help.
I would love to help. Does this sound interesting to you?
And it's really about being an excellent team And it's
(16:51):
very careful not to dominate and not to say well
here's what you should do. You should meet my friends,
They're going to be great, come over Thursday. Well it's
like that's dominie. It's a better strategy to say, hey,
I really think I can help here. Would you want
to get together with some friends, I can see if
they're open to it and have them involved in the process.
(17:12):
I think that's a miscalculation people make is to show
their love. They're like, I'll do it, I'll solve it,
i'll take it on, I'll fix it. And people don't
want that from their friends. It's a pure relationship of equals.
So to be really mindful of the power dynamics.
Speaker 1 (17:31):
I love that image of being a teammate. I mean,
we all want teammates in life. But one last thing
about invitations. Obviously sometimes people don't respond. You talk a
little bit about making silence meaningful. What does that mean?
Speaker 2 (17:44):
This is a trick. This is a trick I learned
from my freelancing for all these top tier outlets, because
they don't always get back to you right away, and
I need to preserve my sanity so I'm not held
hostage by these silences. And we can apply this to
our friendships too. And the way it works is if
you have friends that are exceptionally busy or they're a
(18:05):
little bit harder to pin down, they don't always get
back to you. You can say, hey, i'd love to
see you. Do you want to go to the forty
showing of Nightmare before Christmas, which is something my friend
just went to. And if I don't hear from you
by noon, all of a sudden, you can't go by
saying how you'll interpret the silence. You you're taking power
(18:28):
and you're giving a kindness to the other person. Of
I understand you may not have time to get back
to me. Here's how I'll interpret your non answer, because
a non answer is an answer, so you're just being
you know, saying it out loud. Of I will interpret
your non answer this in this way, and then you
can say I'll be in touch later next week to
(18:50):
find lunch plans like you can. It's not going to
be weird. The goal is to reduce resentment and reduce
these pain points and with certain friends where they can't
get back to you right away, so keep it moving,
be flexible, and take control. If I don't hear from you,
I'll assume this.
Speaker 1 (19:09):
That sounds good. All right, Well, we're going to take
one more quick ad break and we'll be back with
a little bit more of Anna's personal time management tips. Well,
I am back talking with Anna Goldfarb about modern friendships
and ways that busy people can make space in their
(19:30):
life for friends and do it so efficiently, you know,
make things work without a whole lot of terrible back
and forth, which can cause many plans to die. But
let's talk a little bit about your own life. What
are some of the things that you are doing now
to make yourself more efficient or productive.
Speaker 2 (19:53):
Well, the main thing is, and my book can help
walk people through this, is picking your elite tier of people.
I cannot be the same level a friend to everyone
I've ever met in my life. It really is picking
a handful of people. I call it your Jacuzi tier,
(20:14):
your Dacuzi friends, and commit to prioritizing these people, being
in contact with these people and seeing them regularly a
few times a month, and from there, once I knew
sort of who's on the shopping list, to put it
in a sort of crude way, it makes things so
(20:36):
much easier. Like other connections are a bonus and they're
and I know how to regard them. But it's not
as overwhelming of how am I going to juggle all
of my responsibilities and obligations. It's like I have a plan,
I have a strategy. These are the people and I've
told them you're my Jacuzi friend. Here's what this means.
(20:58):
It means if you text me or call me, I
will do everything I can to reply or write back
as soon as I can. It means we can celebrate
birthdays together. Means we can celebrate the holidays together. Means
we can have our own rituals. And that's simplified things
because I know where to put my efforts. I highly
(21:22):
encourage everyone to really sit down and make a list
or if you need a little help, my book can
help you of who are these people to you? And
are these good choices? That's something you don't hear a
lot when it comes to friendship, like, am I making
good choices? Am I picking good people? So my book
can help you evaluate, evaluate the kinds of people you're
(21:46):
picking and making sure that they're appropriate for that level.
Speaker 1 (21:51):
Excellent? And what's something you have done recently to take
a day from great to awesome?
Speaker 2 (21:57):
Oh my gosh, Well I have this actually, me and
one of my best friends. We call it a Terrific
Lady Day. And that's sort of where you can steal
away for a few hours and buy a new random lipstick,
get like that kale lemonade from a hip city of
veg and just live a great life and kind of
you know, bop around. I need a terrific lady bees.
(22:19):
And it doesn't even need to be like this flashy thing,
just a few little old treat a little I'm just
on my own. I'm not gonna, you know, worry about
anyone else, and it's gonna keep my eyes on my
own paper and just do what I want to do
and listen terrific lady ds. Embrace it. When you're having
(22:40):
like a crummy week, just be like, you know, I
need a terrific lady day. I need to go, you know,
get my nails done and then I'll get a little coffee,
like whatever you need these small moments. Also, I want
to say we it feels so good to help others,
but we can help people in a way that makes
sense for us. So it really makes me. It turns
(23:03):
a great a good day into a great day when
I realize I'm suited to help a friend with something
that they need, Like my new friend who wanted to
make more friends, I'm like, I can help, I can
do this, and that really boosts our self esteem. This
is where those good feelings from friends come from is
(23:24):
when you realize you have skills, you have a network,
and you can help others. It's a cheap hit. It's dopamine,
but now it's like a cheap bit of dopamine. But hey,
we're all here for a good time.
Speaker 1 (23:37):
Well, I don't think helping others is a cheap hit
of dopamine. I mean, you know, there are much cheaper
hits one could imagine. So, yes, helping helping others is
always good and something most of us should focus more
time on in general. So, and where can our listeners
find you? Where are you out in the world that
(23:58):
we can locate your work and get to know you more.
Speaker 2 (24:00):
Yeah, you can find me at Anna Goldfarb on Instagram.
I've sort of a band on Twitter. I feel thank everyone,
all right, all sort of And I forget that threads
exist often, so listen Instagram still here, I'm on it,
And I have a newsletter on substack called Friendship Explained.
That's Anna Goldfarb dot sa substack dot com and I
(24:23):
have a lot of fun over there. So please join
me if you want to just just want some some
cool discussion and analysis about my friendships are a dumpster fire,
but yours don't have to be. Friendships in general are,
but yours are going to be magnificent.
Speaker 1 (24:39):
Yours are going to be amazing. So we're in the jacuzzie,
not in the dumpster fire. Get our metaphors right here,
all right, awesome? Well Anna, thank you so much for
joining us, and thank you to everyone for listening. I
welcome feedback on these longer episodes. Ideas you have or
you'd like to see me discuss people you would like
me to bring on. As always, you can reach me
(25:01):
at Laura at Laura vandercam dot com. In the meantime,
this is Laura. Thanks for listening, and here's to making
the most of our time. Thanks for listening to Before Breakfast.
If you've got questions, ideas, or feedback, you can reach
(25:22):
me at Laura at Laura vandercam dot com. Before Breakfast
is a production of iHeartMedia. For more podcasts from iHeartMedia,
please visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you
listen to your favorite shows.
Welcome to Before Breakfast, a production of iHeartRadio. Good Morning,
This is Laura. Welcome to the Before Breakfast podcast. Today's
episode will be a longer one part of my series
where I interview fascinating people about how they manage their
time and how all of us can take our days
(00:24):
from great to awesome. So I am so excited to
welcome Anna Goldfarm to Before Breakfast today. Anna is the
author of the book Modern Friendship, on how to nurture
our most valued connections. So Anna, welcome to the show.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
Thank you for having me. I'm so excited to be here.
Speaker 1 (00:43):
Well, why don't you tell our listeners a little bit
about you.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
Yeah, I'm a journalist and I've reported on friendships, relationships,
and pop psychology for nearly a decade. I've really gotten
to dig deep with friendship, but mostly for The New
York Times. So from my reporting, I wanted something more
comprehensive to describe the strange waters that we're swimming in,
(01:11):
Like I really wanted to capture in a much deeper
way than an article of Guys, here's what's going on.
I want to orient everyone like, Okay, this is the
game we're playing. It is very different rules than any
other time before in history. So here you go. Here's
what's up.
Speaker 1 (01:31):
So are I mean, are we imaginating are people feeling
more isolated or lonely than in the past, And what's
going on? What has changed with friendship to make that happen.
Speaker 2 (01:39):
Yeah, Well, we have a lot of sociological factors that
do not work in our favor. We live in a
society where we're more butterflies. We have unlimited choice on
who we can befriend and who we can associate with.
But also it's easier to shed those connections because we
don't stay in one place for too long. And you know,
(02:02):
our grandparents, their social lives were more like an oak
tree with deep roots where they stayed put and they
knew their communities. They didn't have as much choice of food.
Of a friend, they usually had to be someone that
look that came from their economic background, looked like them.
So it's just pros and cons. It's not saying like
it was better back then, and it's you know, and
(02:25):
it's not comparing. It's just different, different pros and cons.
And I know people sense that things are different. They
probably sense that it's so much harder to keep friendships
going than when they were younger, and it's not their imagination.
They have a collection of friends they've made from different
parts of their life, but they only share common history
(02:48):
with us, not with each other.
Speaker 1 (02:51):
So it's harder to have sort of a group of friends, yeah,
because you sort of are the middle of a spoke
of a wheel. You're the hub of the wheel on
their spokes. I think I've seen you use analogically, and.
Speaker 2 (03:02):
You know, it's just a lot harder to bring different
different people in your life. Two of my best friends
didn't even know each other until my book release party.
So my advice, release a book, have a party that
everyone can finally meet.
Speaker 1 (03:14):
Bring everyone. It's like a wedding or something. Right like
the wedding, you realize, like all these people they know you,
but they don't know everyone else.
Speaker 2 (03:21):
Yeah, so it's.
Speaker 1 (03:23):
A it's a little strange to think about it that way,
but you you know, you focus on sort of the
practicalities of how you can build relationships. And as we
were talking before, you just mentioned something we always like
to talk about routines on this show. And you have
now have a morning routine of talking to your sister,
which obviously family members can be friends. I wonder if
(03:46):
you could talk a little bit about how that routine
came to be and how that has been important in
your life.
Speaker 2 (03:51):
Yeah. I you know, I don't think my sister will
mind me sharing this because I've talked about this before,
and also it's true, so it stry to argue with
the truth. But my sister and I really had trouble
finding common ground for a long time. You know, she
(04:13):
got married and then started having children. I got married
and decided that I was not going to have children,
and we just really had to disconnect over just our lives,
like our different roles that were choosing, and if we
could find common ground with that. I started reporting on
friendships around twenty seventeen for the New York Times, and
(04:36):
in the course of my reporting, I met this woman,
Shasta Nelson, who's an incredible friendship expert. She's an OG,
she's brilliant, the real deal. And what I learned from
Shasta's work is that friendships require three things positivity, consistency,
and vulnerability. So I started applying that to my relationship
(05:00):
with my sister, where you know, it was rocky, and
the first thing I did was consistency of she know,
she has these small children, So I said, why don't
I come over every weekend and I come help with
your kids? So I had the consistency I'm coming over
every Saturday. Then I worked on positivity of you know,
I saw this slip glass. I thought I'd be pretty
(05:20):
for you. I thought this would be a good shade
for you. Here I bought you like a little some
cookies at the market, like just little treats. And that
led to vulnerability of what's going on with you? Like,
what's really going on with your your you know, what
are you struggling with? How can I help? And those
three things, paying attention to them completely completely transformed our
(05:45):
relationship and part of the I've maintained the consistency every weekend,
I still go over, and she started calling me every
morning after dropping the kids off to school, when she's
driving home, she'll call me. So we've created our own
routine means, but you had to lay the I had
to lay the groundwork for those routines to stick.
Speaker 1 (06:07):
Yeah, because friendship, it turns out, takes work and it
takes time, and of course that is something that many
people struggle with a lot. And so let's talk about
that a little. I mean a lot of people say
like I want more friends, or I want a better
social life or something like that, but that's kind of
a vague hope. I mean, what what are people getting
at when they say that.
Speaker 2 (06:30):
Well, studies show that people think they'd be happier with
more friends, But what actually makes us happier is being
considered someone's best friend. And that's because that's a when
someone identifies us and it says, oh my gosh, she's
my best friend, it reinforces our you know, that someone
judges our good character and our sees our integrity and
(06:53):
sees our inner beauty, and that gives us the self
esteem and confidence that we think having more friends would
give us. Yes, I mean our phones are full of
names of people that we love, but it doesn't feel
that amazing, like as amazing as you think it would feel.
You know, our social media. You open it up, Oh,
here's all my friends, and it doesn't really feel like anything.
(07:14):
It kind of just feel, if anything, it feels negative
of well, look what they're doing and I'm not included.
Why wasn't I included? All they're all on a trip.
I haven't been on the trip. It's just like it's
none of it makes feel that good. So what a
better strategy is to be a dynamic teammate, a dynamite
(07:36):
team meat to three to five people, Like, go back
to basics. Really, you know, when you think about when
you were happiest with your friendships, it might have been
high school or college where you just had a few
friends and you just focused on them and that was enough.
You know, you weren't trying to keep all these plates
in the air of every old coworker and old roommate
(07:58):
and childhood best friend. Like you weren't trying to keep
all these plates spinning. So go back to basics. Pick
a few people and be wonderful to them. Excellent.
Speaker 1 (08:09):
Well, we're going to take a short break and then
be back with Anna Goldfarb talking more things friendship. Well,
I am back. This is one of the longer episodes
of Before Breakfast. I am talking with Anna Goldfarb, who
is a friendship expert author of the book Modern Friendship. So, Anna,
(08:31):
one of the things you've said that I've found so
interesting is you know, you're like, I want more friends,
but what you actually want is more people to do
X with. Like that friendship start out at least based
on shared activities. Can you talk a little bit about that.
Speaker 2 (08:46):
Yeah, it's a huge misconception about friendship that it should
just go on forever because because there's affection there, people
should just make time in their schedule because you've known
each other so long, there's such great affection for one another.
But that's not actually how humans work. Humans work, And
I learned this theory something called choice theory, developed by
(09:10):
doctor William Glasser in the nineteen sixties, and choice theory
says that we all have five inherent genetic needs and
their survival, power, love and belonging, freedom, which is like
self expression, and fun. Those are the reasons we do everything.
(09:31):
So when you think about your friendships, and if it's
not particular, if it's not helping your survival, you know,
in a real way, if it's not helping your power
in a real way, if there's not really love and belonging,
you're not in any groups together. You know, you're married,
you get love from other people more primarily more freedom.
(09:56):
If you don't really do anything creative or you feel
like you're yourself, that could be attending a pride parade,
It could be really any kind of self expression and
five fun. If it's not fun, not going to be
time to do it. So when you look at friendships
through that lens, it can help explain why you pull
away from friendships but gravitate towards others because friendships that
(10:19):
help us with those needs were more likely to make
time for.
Speaker 1 (10:24):
And so maybe you're looking for a friend to run
with or a friend to go to the movies with,
and so you kind of need to filter through the
people that are in your life with a focus on that.
Speaker 2 (10:36):
Yeah, or power is your job. Like a lot of friends.
If you're not in the same industry, that can be challenging.
It's like, well, what else do we have that you
can help me with? As I get older, I've been creating.
I've been creating more friendships and seeking out more friendships
with other journalists and authors because they get the challenges
(10:57):
of the industry and then we can it's easier to
form a friendship with peopleeople who care about the things
that you care about. And with meeting you know, we
have our spouse, that's a lot of our love and
belonging in time, so friends just take on a different sheet,
like it's an own brain. They can I go like
one shade to the other. As you become more things,
(11:19):
the more people friends just just have to have to transform.
Speaker 1 (11:25):
Well, let's talk about issuing invitations that are more likely
to get a yes because you have some guidelines. I
think a lot of people are just like, let's get
together sometime, and that's that's a terrible invitation. So what
mistakes are people making and how can we do this
invitation these invitations better.
Speaker 2 (11:42):
The biggest mistake I see is that people spend zero
thought on how their invitation lands in someone else's phone
or inbox. They just rattle off low effort like hey
we should hang out, Hey I miss you, I want
to see you. But that creates a lot of work
on the part of the recipient of well, when what
(12:03):
are we doing? Where are we getting together? And then
it's like oh, then the grooms come out. It's like, oh, no,
I got you drop this bomb on my lap of
you want to see me. I don't know why you
want to see me, you know, I got to figure
out the details. It just creates a lot of work,
a lot of mental work that you that you may
not have intended for the recipient to do. It was
(12:28):
more just hey, we should get together, and it's like,
what do you mean get together? Why? So what we
can do is frontloader invitations with the why so the
other person can better determine if this is a good
use of their time, and what that looks like is
you know, I'll take an example from my own life.
I recently reached out to a woman who works in
(12:50):
media in my neighborhood and I was like, oh my gosh,
you live in Philly. I live in Philly. We're both
in media. Let's get together. That was the why of
this is what I want to see you. We have
the same industry. And we got together for a happy
hour and I asked her what are some of her
pain points living in Philly and she said, well, most
of my friends have moved away and it's been really
(13:12):
hard the past year. Like my best friend moved, they
all moved over the world. And I was like, you
know what, I think you'd really like my two other friends.
So I went to my two other friends and said, hey,
I met this great woman. Let's all have a happy hour.
I want you all to meet. I think you guys
would really hit it off. I'm giving reasons as I'm
(13:32):
telling the story, I'm peppering reasons for everything I'm doing.
So the new friend, I invited her these women I
think you'd hit it off with there in media would
be a cool hang and that reason was enough for
her to say yes. And then to my two friends,
they're like, oh, she sounds cool, I'd love to meet her.
So we all went out for a happy hour and
it was amazing. We had a great time, and we're like,
(13:54):
let's do this regularly. Let's start it monthly hangout. So
every step along the way we had a reason, a
reason for the initial meeting, a reason to expand the
circle so she could meet more friends in the neighborhood.
And it was a success. So you know, anyone can
(14:15):
do this. I'm not some savant like of savant. I
just give meaningful reasons that people responded to to make
them say yes, to have them not flake or bail.
And usually if people flake or bail, it's because the
reason wasn't clear, or the reason wasn't compelling to get together.
Speaker 1 (14:34):
So's and I've even seen you mention giving specific times
and locations, like if you were inviting someone for coffee.
You're not just like I want to talk with you
about X related to our industry, which again might be
a good why, but you say, you know I could
do these three times. There's a cute place here. Does
(14:55):
any of that work for you?
Speaker 2 (14:57):
Right?
Speaker 1 (14:57):
Like to make it as easy as possible for people
to say yes, yes, And.
Speaker 2 (15:00):
Also it shows that you understand that this new friend
has a whole other life and other commitments, and it's
a sign of respect. It's a subtle sign of respect
of I respect your time. Here's what I'm asking, here's
the container it's in, and it will make it easier
for people to say yes, especially if they have children
(15:21):
or spouses, like they need to know what's the time
coming when you're asking, I need to plan around it.
So it's like a subtle way. And I really think
I try to be the friend that I would love
to have. I would find it very respectful if someone
did that for me, so I just try to return
the favor. Well.
Speaker 1 (15:41):
I like that last point because there's definitely an element
there of being of service. And when you talked earlier
about choosing to be a wonderful friend to the three
to five people, I mean part of that is being
helpful and you ask this new friend about her pain
points in Philly. I think a lot of people don't
(16:03):
do that naturally, So maybe you can talk about what
that looks like.
Speaker 2 (16:07):
Well, it can really be like what you know. I
in a clunky way, it's saying like how can I
help you? But in a more subtle way, it's just
listening to how how do you find living here? Like?
Are what are some like anything you've been struggling with.
I wouldn't be that overt or explicit, but I would
just listen and feel like, tell me what's going on,
(16:29):
how's your job? How has your social life been? And
just listen for those bids of well I'm struggling at
this area like I'm I'm really having a tough time
here and being like, oh, here's how I can help.
I would love to help. Does this sound interesting to you?
And it's really about being an excellent team And it's
(16:51):
very careful not to dominate and not to say well
here's what you should do. You should meet my friends,
They're going to be great, come over Thursday. Well it's
like that's dominie. It's a better strategy to say, hey,
I really think I can help here. Would you want
to get together with some friends, I can see if
they're open to it and have them involved in the process.
(17:12):
I think that's a miscalculation people make is to show
their love. They're like, I'll do it, I'll solve it,
i'll take it on, I'll fix it. And people don't
want that from their friends. It's a pure relationship of equals.
So to be really mindful of the power dynamics.
Speaker 1 (17:31):
I love that image of being a teammate. I mean,
we all want teammates in life. But one last thing
about invitations. Obviously sometimes people don't respond. You talk a
little bit about making silence meaningful. What does that mean?
Speaker 2 (17:44):
This is a trick. This is a trick I learned
from my freelancing for all these top tier outlets, because
they don't always get back to you right away, and
I need to preserve my sanity so I'm not held
hostage by these silences. And we can apply this to
our friendships too. And the way it works is if
you have friends that are exceptionally busy or they're a
(18:05):
little bit harder to pin down, they don't always get
back to you. You can say, hey, i'd love to
see you. Do you want to go to the forty
showing of Nightmare before Christmas, which is something my friend
just went to. And if I don't hear from you
by noon, all of a sudden, you can't go by
saying how you'll interpret the silence. You you're taking power
(18:28):
and you're giving a kindness to the other person. Of
I understand you may not have time to get back
to me. Here's how I'll interpret your non answer, because
a non answer is an answer, so you're just being
you know, saying it out loud. Of I will interpret
your non answer this in this way, and then you
can say I'll be in touch later next week to
(18:50):
find lunch plans like you can. It's not going to
be weird. The goal is to reduce resentment and reduce
these pain points and with certain friends where they can't
get back to you right away, so keep it moving,
be flexible, and take control. If I don't hear from you,
I'll assume this.
Speaker 1 (19:09):
That sounds good. All right, Well, we're going to take
one more quick ad break and we'll be back with
a little bit more of Anna's personal time management tips. Well,
I am back talking with Anna Goldfarb about modern friendships
and ways that busy people can make space in their
(19:30):
life for friends and do it so efficiently, you know,
make things work without a whole lot of terrible back
and forth, which can cause many plans to die. But
let's talk a little bit about your own life. What
are some of the things that you are doing now
to make yourself more efficient or productive.
Speaker 2 (19:53):
Well, the main thing is, and my book can help
walk people through this, is picking your elite tier of people.
I cannot be the same level a friend to everyone
I've ever met in my life. It really is picking
a handful of people. I call it your Jacuzi tier,
(20:14):
your Dacuzi friends, and commit to prioritizing these people, being
in contact with these people and seeing them regularly a
few times a month, and from there, once I knew
sort of who's on the shopping list, to put it
in a sort of crude way, it makes things so
(20:36):
much easier. Like other connections are a bonus and they're
and I know how to regard them. But it's not
as overwhelming of how am I going to juggle all
of my responsibilities and obligations. It's like I have a plan,
I have a strategy. These are the people and I've
told them you're my Jacuzi friend. Here's what this means.
(20:58):
It means if you text me or call me, I
will do everything I can to reply or write back
as soon as I can. It means we can celebrate
birthdays together. Means we can celebrate the holidays together. Means
we can have our own rituals. And that's simplified things
because I know where to put my efforts. I highly
(21:22):
encourage everyone to really sit down and make a list
or if you need a little help, my book can
help you of who are these people to you? And
are these good choices? That's something you don't hear a
lot when it comes to friendship, like, am I making
good choices? Am I picking good people? So my book
can help you evaluate, evaluate the kinds of people you're
(21:46):
picking and making sure that they're appropriate for that level.
Speaker 1 (21:51):
Excellent? And what's something you have done recently to take
a day from great to awesome?
Speaker 2 (21:57):
Oh my gosh, Well I have this actually, me and
one of my best friends. We call it a Terrific
Lady Day. And that's sort of where you can steal
away for a few hours and buy a new random lipstick,
get like that kale lemonade from a hip city of
veg and just live a great life and kind of
you know, bop around. I need a terrific lady bees.
(22:19):
And it doesn't even need to be like this flashy thing,
just a few little old treat a little I'm just
on my own. I'm not gonna, you know, worry about
anyone else, and it's gonna keep my eyes on my
own paper and just do what I want to do
and listen terrific lady ds. Embrace it. When you're having
(22:40):
like a crummy week, just be like, you know, I
need a terrific lady day. I need to go, you know,
get my nails done and then I'll get a little coffee,
like whatever you need these small moments. Also, I want
to say we it feels so good to help others,
but we can help people in a way that makes
sense for us. So it really makes me. It turns
(23:03):
a great a good day into a great day when
I realize I'm suited to help a friend with something
that they need, Like my new friend who wanted to
make more friends, I'm like, I can help, I can
do this, and that really boosts our self esteem. This
is where those good feelings from friends come from is
(23:24):
when you realize you have skills, you have a network,
and you can help others. It's a cheap hit. It's dopamine,
but now it's like a cheap bit of dopamine. But hey,
we're all here for a good time.
Speaker 1 (23:37):
Well, I don't think helping others is a cheap hit
of dopamine. I mean, you know, there are much cheaper
hits one could imagine. So, yes, helping helping others is
always good and something most of us should focus more
time on in general. So, and where can our listeners
find you? Where are you out in the world that
(23:58):
we can locate your work and get to know you more.
Speaker 2 (24:00):
Yeah, you can find me at Anna Goldfarb on Instagram.
I've sort of a band on Twitter. I feel thank everyone,
all right, all sort of And I forget that threads
exist often, so listen Instagram still here, I'm on it,
And I have a newsletter on substack called Friendship Explained.
That's Anna Goldfarb dot sa substack dot com and I
(24:23):
have a lot of fun over there. So please join
me if you want to just just want some some
cool discussion and analysis about my friendships are a dumpster fire,
but yours don't have to be. Friendships in general are,
but yours are going to be magnificent.
Speaker 1 (24:39):
Yours are going to be amazing. So we're in the jacuzzie,
not in the dumpster fire. Get our metaphors right here,
all right, awesome? Well Anna, thank you so much for
joining us, and thank you to everyone for listening. I
welcome feedback on these longer episodes. Ideas you have or
you'd like to see me discuss people you would like
me to bring on. As always, you can reach me
(25:01):
at Laura at Laura vandercam dot com. In the meantime,
this is Laura. Thanks for listening, and here's to making
the most of our time. Thanks for listening to Before Breakfast.
If you've got questions, ideas, or feedback, you can reach
(25:22):
me at Laura at Laura vandercam dot com. Before Breakfast
is a production of iHeartMedia. For more podcasts from iHeartMedia,
please visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you
listen to your favorite shows.
Before Breakfast News
Host
Laura Vanderkam
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