December 10, 2025 • 23 mins
Sarah Hart-Unger, author of Best Laid Plans, shares strategies for effective planning
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Welcome to Before Breakfast, a production of iHeartRadio. Good Morning.
This is Laura. Welcome to the Before Breakfast podcast. Today's
episode is going to be a longer one part of
the series where I interview fascinating people about how they
take their days from great to awesome and any advice
(00:23):
they have for the rest of us. So today I
am delighted to welcome Sarah hart Hunger back to Before Breakfast.
Sarah is my co host on the Best of Both
Worlds podcasts, so some of you may know her from there.
She also hosts the Best Laid Plans podcast and is
the author of the brand new book which is out
next week called Best Laid Plans. So, Sarah, welcome to
(00:43):
the show.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited
to be on Before Breakfast.
Speaker 1 (00:48):
Yeah, we're excited to have you back. So tell our
listeners a little bit about yourself.
Speaker 2 (00:52):
Yeah, So, first of all, I am Laura's podcasting partner
on Best of Both Worlds, as she mentioned, and I
am a physician. I'm a pediatric endocrinologists working in South Florida.
I have three kids, ages eight. I'm trying to think
of how how old they'll be when this airs eleven
and thirteen. As of this airing, I just wrote a
(01:12):
book called Best Laid Plans, a simple planning System for
living a life that you love, and I have my
own website and podcasts called Bestlaid Plans about all Things
planning and planning Adjacent.
Speaker 1 (01:22):
Yeah, so you are an expert in all things planning
and planning adjacent, and now you have written a book
about would you say it's about how to plan? Is
it about the theory of planning? Why don't you tell
us a little bit about that?
Speaker 2 (01:33):
There's a little bit of theory in that I work
very hard to convince readers that most people benefit from
spending a bit more time planning than they currently do,
as well as thinking about how they plan, not just
haphazardly going about it, but creating systems with thought and
a spirit of iteration and experimentation, something I sometimes call metaplanning.
But then, there is a very cohesive set of systems
(01:56):
that are introduced in the book, both for managing inputs
that come at you and tasks that you have to
deal with from day to day, as well as setting
goals on every level, from big annual goals to daily goals.
That get checked off on a task list.
Speaker 1 (02:12):
Yeah, and the book came out of some of the
courses you have been teaching over the past few years.
I mean, what need did you see when you are
teaching these courses that you're like, oh, I really need
to expand on that more.
Speaker 2 (02:23):
Yes, I saw people overwhelmed by the idea of planning
and listening to people share that they would love to
have systems that they were pleasurable to use, and also
systems that they felt they could stick with so that
they could set big goals and not forget them just
a few months down the road in the year. And
also a big common theme was just managing the barrage
(02:45):
of inputs that come at us from every direction day
to day. How to keep one's inbox manageable and make
sure that we decide the priorities of our day before
our day kind of swallows us whole in a sea
of reactivity or something like that.
Speaker 1 (02:59):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (02:59):
So I all these were struggles and I felt that
obviously I can't solve these problems entirely for anyone, but
I had accumulated a lot of strategies that can be helpful,
and I put this together into a course where we
actually went through the specifics of having a very accurate calendar,
what to do with all those inputs, and categorizing your
tasks that you see them at the right time and
(03:20):
not be stressed out by them at the wrong time.
And again that kind of nested goal setting system that
goes from really small things on a daily level all
the way to the goals that you set through the year,
and how to both have these lists be realistic but
also connected in some way so that you're not losing
sight of those bigger picture goals as you move throughout
(03:41):
the day and get things done that need to happen.
Speaker 1 (03:44):
Yeah. Well, and speaking of getting things done, I think
of your book sort of as a modern day twist
on David Allen's favorite book, getting a famous book, Getting
Things Done. Maybe you could talk a little bit about
what the similarities are to that and then of course
some differences. Yes.
Speaker 2 (03:59):
Well, first of all, I want to say I love
David Allen's Getting Things Done. I've read that book at
least three times, and a lot of what he talks
about does inform some of what is in my book.
And I always tried to give him credit where credit
was due, But one thing that never really worked for
me is the idea of having one giant list of
every single thing that I could possibly do, and then
being able to organically look at that and decide what
(04:21):
to do from moment to moment. I didn't feel there
was an easy way of kind of connecting that moment
to moment. This is my priority to this massive barrage
of things that are out there, and I do think
part of that has to do with the fact that
today things are coming at us a little bit faster,
and also that I'm just managing multiple realms. I have
a kind of structured job. I have a job that's
(04:43):
more free form. I have my whole household life to
deal with. I have to keep track of my kids
and just all of these different spheres.
Speaker 3 (04:51):
If I were to make one giant list of things, I.
Speaker 2 (04:53):
Would be so overwhelmed by that list that I probably
would never even get started. So I kind of took
a spin on this that makes things at least feel
more manageable, but still took his idea of complete capture,
And like his book, I really do feel like it's
an instructive manual. It definitely has some personal elements in it. Vignettes.
I tried to make it fun to read and not
(05:14):
terribly dry. But at the same time, if I were
gonna kind of compare it to any book that's out there,
that probably would be the closest comp even though it
came out more than twenty years ago.
Speaker 1 (05:23):
Absolutely well, they'll both be pillars of the you know,
planning and organizational literature for sure. So what do most
people get wrong about planning? I'm sure a lot of
people are listening to this and thing, well, I bought
a planner, Is that what I need to do?
Speaker 3 (05:38):
Yeah? I mean I love planners.
Speaker 2 (05:41):
But one thing people get wrong is that the tool
matters immensely and that if you have exactly the right book,
that all of a sudden you're going to be a
planning genius because you know the book is going to
do all the work for you. And I think it's
so much less about the tools and so much more
about the rituals, which include adding clear descriptions and having
(06:03):
thought put into when you're going to do your planning,
how you're going to do your planning, exactly what elements
you're going to incorporate into your planning rituals. There's so
much more how than there is of a kind of
physical what whether that's a very flashy app or a book.
Speaker 3 (06:17):
So I think that's number one, and.
Speaker 2 (06:19):
Then the number two would be I've heard people say
I don't have time to plan, and to me that
is like a harried chef running around a kitchen saying, well,
I don't have time to sharpen my knife. Because to me, yes,
planning does take time, and it's it's a significant amount
of time, but the time dividends and the sort of
directional dividends in that you're probably going to be spending
more time doing things that actually move forward on the
(06:41):
things you want are so valuable that for me that
time trade off is just so so so worth it.
Speaker 3 (06:47):
So I guess that.
Speaker 2 (06:48):
Would be number one, and number two.
Speaker 1 (06:49):
Yeah, I might even add to that a third that
I think there's this sort of misconception about planning that
it's about planning things you don't want to do, and
so it doesn't sound very appealing because it's like, well,
who wants to put more in that I don't want
to do?
Speaker 2 (07:01):
Oh my gosh, I totally agree with you, and the
idea that the goals mean, you know, all work tasks
or like you know, sweeping the cellar or something like that.
Your goals should be things you're excited to do in life.
Of course, there are going to be things on your
list that you're not like sparkling. Your eyes don't light
up when you see a state planning on there. But
I tell people to aim for like a two to
one ratio of things they are excited about and things
(07:22):
that just have to be done, so that most of
it is moving forward to things that are fun and
that make life feel worth living.
Speaker 1 (07:28):
Absolutely. Well, We're going to take a quick ad break
and then I will be back with more from Sarah
Hart Hunger. Well, we are back. We're talking all things
planning with Sarah Hart Hunger, who has a brand new
book out next week called Best Laid Plans. That is
also the name of her podcast, which you should go
(07:51):
check out. So we talk a lot about weekly planning
on this show. Sarah, I know it's a core part
of my planning processes. What does your weekly planning which
will look like these days?
Speaker 2 (08:02):
I do some of it on Wednesday and some of
it on Sunday recently, so this is a little bit quirky,
but it has to do with the fact that I
generally have full days of patient care on Thursday and
Friday and there just isn't much bandwidth for planning. But
Wednesday is a more creative day for me. It's also
not typically a big recording day. I tend to do
more of that on Mondays. So on Wednesday afternoon, I
(08:25):
tend to make sure my inboxes are relatively up to current,
and I sit there and think through what do I
want to get done for the rest of this week
and then into the next week, and then when it
comes into kind of more I don't know, loftier goal
setting and actually looking at my big month goals and
figuring out what to carry forward, as well as setting
up logistical plans for our household types of things. I
(08:45):
do all of that on Sundays, and that involves actually
physically setting up my planner spread on that Sunday, as
well as what I call our weekly board, where the
kids can then see who has what activities. We also
always have some kind of an interactive component. Typically over
Sunday dinner we review what is on that board, like oh,
are you still going to go to that volunteer event
(09:06):
on Wednesday? And who's going to be picking you up,
and of course we also know ask for input as
to whether there are things that need to change. Therefore,
by the end we have had a discussion and we
have a written component and everything feels pretty set moving
into the week.
Speaker 1 (09:21):
And what does your daily planning ritual look like, because
there's different levels that this all works on.
Speaker 2 (09:26):
Yeah, my daily planning ritual is quick. I probably spend
less than ten minutes planning daily. And that's even an
overstatement really because part of what I call planning is
setting up my planner page in the planner that I use,
which is almost a little bit of a meditative arts
and crafts ritual that I just really enjoy and it
(09:46):
gets my day started on the right foot. But I
will spend time looking at my weekly spread, figuring out
what I have for the day, whether I can figure
out whether I can fit in some additional tasks, put
those tasks on my to do list, kind of map
out my timeline for the day, and get the bowl rolling.
And really that that takes ten minutes or less.
Speaker 1 (10:04):
And you're doing this in the early morning, if I
remember correctly, we are big on morning routines here at
before breakfast. Maybe you could talk us through what a
morning routine tends to look like for you.
Speaker 2 (10:13):
Yes, and I know you talk about in your podcast
how you like to surprise people and tell them you're
not one of those annoying early five am people.
Speaker 1 (10:20):
You are one of those early five am people, aren't you.
Speaker 2 (10:23):
I'm totally annoying, but this has been I'm just wired
this way. Even in residency, when I had to be
at the hospital at five am, I wouldn't get up
at four thirty in rush. I'd be getting up like
at four so I could sit there with my coffee
and have a little bit of morning time. I crave
it so much, and I don't have difficulty waking up early.
I do have difficulties staying up late, so you know,
(10:46):
trade offs, but yes, I do it. I set my
alarm these days for around five, which is actually later
than I used to when I did tons of running,
But around five am, and then by five point fifteen
I'm done with my planning aspects of my routine and
starting some of the other things that I like to do.
Speaker 1 (11:02):
Which include exercising. I believe you have a pretty elaborate
at many mornings you're doing at home exercising, correct.
Speaker 2 (11:09):
Yeah, I have about a sixty to forty split between
at home exercise and then plates classes in a studio,
So my at home exercise days are usually lifting weights
for about thirty minutes.
Speaker 3 (11:19):
I love using guided.
Speaker 2 (11:20):
Videos from various sources, and generally aim to get that
workout started by five point fifty or six because I
know if I don't, then the whole driving to school
rush is going to be thrown off. So that's kind
of my deadline to stop with anything else that I
might be doing during the morning.
Speaker 1 (11:37):
And you also incorporate some reading time into all this.
Speaker 2 (11:40):
Yes, so that's really the other main things that I
do are completing my five year journal. Currently, I've been
experimenting with doing some other freeform journaling and then also
doing some nonfiction reading, maybe just you know, ten pages
or so, but I just find the books really do
add up over the course of the year and it
gets my day started off on a fun note.
Speaker 1 (12:00):
And you are able to exercise at home without waking
people up.
Speaker 2 (12:04):
Yeah, I mean, I am past this phase where a
pin drops in your house and you hear a baby wail,
but no one really wakes up. I have to drag
everyone out of bed in the morning, I'm able to
kind of go to a corner of our house and
we have a mat setup, we have weights all set up.
I do set my workout clothes on my bedroom floor
the night before, so I kind of have a whole
(12:25):
ritual going. But yeah, generally it's not too much of
an issue. And of course I use headphones when I'm
doing these guided workouts, but the AirPods seem to stay
in my ears despite squats and deadlifts and all those things.
Speaker 1 (12:36):
Pretty amazing. It's amazing what technology can do. So but
that allows us to pivot to a different topic, which
when you came on this show last time, longtime listeners
may recall we were sort of celebrating how you had
achieved some of your big athletic goals, you know, like
qualifying for the Boston Marathon in the middle of a
very full life of practicing as a physician, having your
(12:59):
creative job, three kids. That took a big turn this year.
Maybe you could talk about the development since our last
recording together.
Speaker 3 (13:07):
Yeah, it's crazy.
Speaker 2 (13:08):
I mean I still remember that day of crossing the
finish line and knowing I had met the goal I
had set for so many years and was really having
a blast in my running life. In March of this year,
I set out to run a half marathon. I've run
tons over the course of the year. It was like
a regular day like any other, but midway through the race,
or actually towards the end of the race, I felt
(13:29):
something really weird happened to me where I just felt
like I couldn't go anymore. And I assumed it was
the bunk I had heard about so many times but
never really experienced. But I got to the finish line somehow,
and then it didn't seem to be going away, even
though I was at that point walking and was like, huh,
Usually you know when you stop you should feel better,
but I was not feeling better. I ended up going
to the medical tent and a couple times. The first
(13:51):
time they were like, yeah, you seem fine. The second
time they started to look a little bit more concerned
and put a heart monitor on me, which is when
we found out that my heart was going two hundred
and sixty five beats a minute, completely ventricular tact cardia
and did not seem to want to stop doing that.
You cannot really live long term like that. So my
blood pressure started to drop and I got dizzy and
(14:12):
I ended up getting taken to the hospital right near
the race, where I got sedated a million ivs put
in and shocked out of it, and you know, woke
up in the hospital. And turns out that I ended
up getting a ton of testing done over the next
few days, because why was this healthy runner who's done
you know, tons of racism, was running sixty miles a
(14:33):
week on a regular basis having this arrhythmia. And it
turns out I have a cardiac issue that causes a
rhythmias that develops over time. Is more common if you've
had a lot of endurance exercise, but it's probably also genetic.
It's called a rhythmagenic cardiomyopathy. It took a couple months
to get the formal, finalized diagnosis from experts, But long
story short, I did find out my running career was
(14:56):
to a final, permanent end by spring of twenty twenty
five and had to spend some time processing that. But
I would say at this point have pretty much come
out on the other side.
Speaker 1 (15:06):
Yeah, but let's talk about that. I mean, just resiliency.
Are there practical tips like you could share it with people?
On resiliency? You had something that was a big part
of your life sort of taken away in a very
spectacular fashion. I imagine a lot of people would be bitter
about this, and you know, it was your social outlet,
it was your kind of fun outlet. What did you
(15:29):
do to kind of get to a place where you
can be just you know, saying it matter of factly
like this.
Speaker 3 (15:37):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (15:38):
Well, and to add a little other layer, I ended
up having a defibrillator implanted into me, and it's also
a condition with a bit.
Speaker 3 (15:45):
Of an uncertain prognosis over time.
Speaker 2 (15:47):
But I actually think of anything that kind of helped
me a little bit because I had just had instant
perspective of I guess how much like worse things could
have been, or how lucky I am that I still
have like normal cardiac function and an overall good outlet.
I think if you had told me, you know, running
was going to be taken away and there was no
other context, I'd be mad. But it's like, well, running
(16:09):
was taken away, but this was caught in time for
you to avoid heart failure, and maybe you know you
could have died on a run by yourself. There's instantly
a little bit of perspective there, so in a way,
I'm grateful for how things played out and how they happened.
I also went to therapy. I think sometimes you just
need to talk through things incessantly with someone else who's
willing to listen. And I didn't go for a million weeks.
(16:31):
I probably went for two or three months every week
or so, but I found that really helpful in processing things,
and definitely just talking with friends and sharing my story
with others was helpful.
Speaker 3 (16:41):
But I don't know.
Speaker 2 (16:42):
I think the biggest overarching thing is that I'm just like, Wow,
my life has so many other amazing things to offer.
Speaker 3 (16:48):
I'm still here.
Speaker 2 (16:49):
I still feel pretty good day to day, Like I
just think there's so much of a bright side to
look on that that's what I choose to focus on
most of the time.
Speaker 1 (16:56):
Absolutely well, and also looking for ways to spend some
of that same time. I know you got very into
other forms of athletic.
Speaker 2 (17:06):
Totally, and that is another aspect I feel really grateful
for that I still can do some exercise. There are
certain forms of what I have with certain gene mutations
where I really couldn't do anything other than walk, but
that's not my situation. So I can lift weights, and
I appreciate that I can do that. I decided I
needed some sort of in person exercise that would just
feel a little bit more I don't know consuming, I guess,
(17:26):
so I decided to try pilates, and it turned out
I do enjoy it. Kind of brings me back to
my like gymnastics or cheerleading days a little bit, and
it's just kind of a little bit inherently fun.
Speaker 1 (17:35):
So that's great.
Speaker 2 (17:36):
I think the one thing that's still missing for me
is the social aspect of running. Since I had some
great running friends i'd see many mornings that I don't
see much of anymore, and just the big hobby aspect.
It was also something fun I shared with my husband
because you know, we qualified for Boston together at the
same race. And yeah, I feel like I'm still in
(17:57):
search of something to kind of replace that void life.
Speaker 1 (18:00):
All right, Well, a goal for the next year, for sure.
We're going to take one more quick ad break and
then I will be back with more from Sarah hart Unger.
So I am back talking with Sarah hart Hunger, who's
the author of the brand new book which is out
next week called Best Laid Plans. Some of you may
(18:20):
recognize her as my co host on the Best of
Both Worlds podcasts as well. So, Sarah, one of the
things we've been talking about on this show more in
the last few months as evening rituals. So obviously Before
Breakfast is all about mornings as well, but how we
end the day matters as well. And you mentioned you're
kind of a going to bed sort of early person.
I wonder what your evenings look like, if you have
(18:41):
any rituals that you are thinking make life better Right now.
Speaker 2 (18:45):
I love reading, so I almost always read before bed,
so that's one thing. And I have come to terms
with myself that after a certain point in the day
I'm not going to be very productive, and I think
it was helpful to just be like, this is kind
of your experiencing heyng out time rather than getting things
done time. Once I realized that I could settle into
it a little bit more. So, I'm super excited to
(19:07):
hear what is in the book Golden Hours, but I
hope there's a lot of room for like just hanging
out with your family and sitting on the couch.
Speaker 1 (19:14):
Well, definitely, I mean we all we talk about is
like thirty minute intentions. Is there something you want to
do for thirty minutes and it sounds like reading? Is
that for you? How do you figure out what you're
going to read next?
Speaker 3 (19:23):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (19:24):
I always have a few books that I've had recommended
to me. They're sitting on a list somewhere, or I
put them on my library holds list and then they
come in. Like recently, someone had mentioned the book Culpability
and they said, oh, it has Ai and it was
like kind of like White Lotus, and I was like, okay,
I'm so sold. And then it happened to come from
my library and I read it in a few days
because it was just so good. Mostly in the evenings, Yeah, wonderful.
(19:46):
So nonfiction in the morning, fiction in the evening, if
you want to read.
Speaker 1 (19:49):
Like Sarah here, So Sarah, I ask all my guests
this question, what is something you have done recently to
take a day from great to awesome?
Speaker 2 (19:57):
Anytime that I can get out and experienced some kind
of event that I had planned for my future self
is really really fun and exciting and so.
Speaker 3 (20:07):
Well, this was kind of a fail, but it was
also a success.
Speaker 2 (20:10):
So the other day my friend and I she wanted
me to come try out her pilate studio. And this
took a little bit of doing. It also took my
wonderful family not minding me leaving on a weekend to
go to a workout class kind of in the meal
of the afternoon. But we planned it in and I
went and I had a great time. And even though
it seems like a small thing, it was friend time.
(20:31):
It was a different type of exercise, and it was
just sort of like something we had come up with
that had come to fruition. So I would say, like
making little plans with friends and then enjoying them when
they happened.
Speaker 1 (20:41):
But wait, why was there You said there was something
of a fail to it. I'm curious.
Speaker 2 (20:44):
Well, yes, so it was also supposed to be our
friends giving and my husband was going to join us
there later, but they drove on a nail And yeah,
but at least I got to hang out with my friend.
Speaker 1 (20:56):
Bestaid plans as we say, they did. Yeah, because things
that we planned don't always work out right. But that
doesn't mean you shouldn't.
Speaker 2 (21:03):
Oh my gosh, I totally agree. And in fact, you know,
my friend and I were laughing about the fact that
it didn't happen but they're like, well, at least we
kind of have the men you figured out, because we
picked another date that we're going to do it. And
the truth is, let's say you for every ten things
you plan, eight of them happen. And I do think
you should always try your best to make sure you
can have them happen. But actually his battery then died
(21:24):
as he was changing the tire and we're like an
hour away, so like it could not happen. We just
had to like wave the white flag at that point.
You know that one couldn't happen. But if eight out
of ten things do happen, that's still a lot of
great things.
Speaker 1 (21:36):
Yeah, and many of those might not happen if we
were just trying to, you know, see how life went.
Speaker 2 (21:41):
Oh, none of them would happen. I mean, like one
of them would serendipitously happen. I'll take eight over one.
Speaker 1 (21:46):
Yeah, eight over one is a good ratio. So, Sarah,
what are you looking forward to right now?
Speaker 2 (21:50):
I am looking forward to my family trip to Montana
to go skiing. It's actually our fourth time. We're big
repeaters of destination. But I am just I have very
busy month of December ahead. I'm going in with a
very clear head. I know how much time I have
and what I need to get done in those weeks.
But you know, there's like a light at the end
of the tunnel. And I'm also looking forward to my
(22:12):
book coming out into the world. That's been a long
time calming and I'm just very excited to share it
with everyone.
Speaker 1 (22:16):
Yeah. Absolutely, so everyone can check out the book Best
Laid Plans by Sarah hart Unger. So, Sarah, where can
people find you?
Speaker 2 (22:23):
Yes, so, well, you can find me with Laura of
course at Best of Both Worlds podcasts. You can find
me on Best Laid Plans podcasts, and you can find
me at my website, which is the shoebox dot com
th e s h u box dot com. You can
find all my show notes, you can find book information
everything else there.
Speaker 1 (22:41):
Excellent. Well, Sarah, thank you so much for joining us.
Thank you to everyone for listening. If you have feedback
on this or any other episode, you can always reach
me at Laura at Laura vandercam dot com. In the meantime,
this is Laura. Thanks for listening, and here's to making
the most of our time. Thanks for listening to Before Breakfast.
(23:06):
If you've got questions, ideas, or feedback, you can reach
me at Laura at Laura vandercam dot com. Before Breakfast
is a production of iHeartMedia. For more podcasts from iHeartMedia,
please visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you
(23:28):
listen to your favorite shows.
Welcome to Before Breakfast, a production of iHeartRadio. Good Morning.
This is Laura. Welcome to the Before Breakfast podcast. Today's
episode is going to be a longer one part of
the series where I interview fascinating people about how they
take their days from great to awesome and any advice
(00:23):
they have for the rest of us. So today I
am delighted to welcome Sarah hart Hunger back to Before Breakfast.
Sarah is my co host on the Best of Both
Worlds podcasts, so some of you may know her from there.
She also hosts the Best Laid Plans podcast and is
the author of the brand new book which is out
next week called Best Laid Plans. So, Sarah, welcome to
(00:43):
the show.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited
to be on Before Breakfast.
Speaker 1 (00:48):
Yeah, we're excited to have you back. So tell our
listeners a little bit about yourself.
Speaker 2 (00:52):
Yeah, So, first of all, I am Laura's podcasting partner
on Best of Both Worlds, as she mentioned, and I
am a physician. I'm a pediatric endocrinologists working in South Florida.
I have three kids, ages eight. I'm trying to think
of how how old they'll be when this airs eleven
and thirteen. As of this airing, I just wrote a
(01:12):
book called Best Laid Plans, a simple planning System for
living a life that you love, and I have my
own website and podcasts called Bestlaid Plans about all Things
planning and planning Adjacent.
Speaker 1 (01:22):
Yeah, so you are an expert in all things planning
and planning adjacent, and now you have written a book
about would you say it's about how to plan? Is
it about the theory of planning? Why don't you tell
us a little bit about that?
Speaker 2 (01:33):
There's a little bit of theory in that I work
very hard to convince readers that most people benefit from
spending a bit more time planning than they currently do,
as well as thinking about how they plan, not just
haphazardly going about it, but creating systems with thought and
a spirit of iteration and experimentation, something I sometimes call metaplanning.
But then, there is a very cohesive set of systems
(01:56):
that are introduced in the book, both for managing inputs
that come at you and tasks that you have to
deal with from day to day, as well as setting
goals on every level, from big annual goals to daily goals.
That get checked off on a task list.
Speaker 1 (02:12):
Yeah, and the book came out of some of the
courses you have been teaching over the past few years.
I mean, what need did you see when you are
teaching these courses that you're like, oh, I really need
to expand on that more.
Speaker 2 (02:23):
Yes, I saw people overwhelmed by the idea of planning
and listening to people share that they would love to
have systems that they were pleasurable to use, and also
systems that they felt they could stick with so that
they could set big goals and not forget them just
a few months down the road in the year. And
also a big common theme was just managing the barrage
(02:45):
of inputs that come at us from every direction day
to day. How to keep one's inbox manageable and make
sure that we decide the priorities of our day before
our day kind of swallows us whole in a sea
of reactivity or something like that.
Speaker 1 (02:59):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (02:59):
So I all these were struggles and I felt that
obviously I can't solve these problems entirely for anyone, but
I had accumulated a lot of strategies that can be helpful,
and I put this together into a course where we
actually went through the specifics of having a very accurate calendar,
what to do with all those inputs, and categorizing your
tasks that you see them at the right time and
(03:20):
not be stressed out by them at the wrong time.
And again that kind of nested goal setting system that
goes from really small things on a daily level all
the way to the goals that you set through the year,
and how to both have these lists be realistic but
also connected in some way so that you're not losing
sight of those bigger picture goals as you move throughout
(03:41):
the day and get things done that need to happen.
Speaker 1 (03:44):
Yeah. Well, and speaking of getting things done, I think
of your book sort of as a modern day twist
on David Allen's favorite book, getting a famous book, Getting
Things Done. Maybe you could talk a little bit about
what the similarities are to that and then of course
some differences. Yes.
Speaker 2 (03:59):
Well, first of all, I want to say I love
David Allen's Getting Things Done. I've read that book at
least three times, and a lot of what he talks
about does inform some of what is in my book.
And I always tried to give him credit where credit
was due, But one thing that never really worked for
me is the idea of having one giant list of
every single thing that I could possibly do, and then
being able to organically look at that and decide what
(04:21):
to do from moment to moment. I didn't feel there
was an easy way of kind of connecting that moment
to moment. This is my priority to this massive barrage
of things that are out there, and I do think
part of that has to do with the fact that
today things are coming at us a little bit faster,
and also that I'm just managing multiple realms. I have
a kind of structured job. I have a job that's
(04:43):
more free form. I have my whole household life to
deal with. I have to keep track of my kids
and just all of these different spheres.
Speaker 3 (04:51):
If I were to make one giant list of things, I.
Speaker 2 (04:53):
Would be so overwhelmed by that list that I probably
would never even get started. So I kind of took
a spin on this that makes things at least feel
more manageable, but still took his idea of complete capture,
And like his book, I really do feel like it's
an instructive manual. It definitely has some personal elements in it. Vignettes.
I tried to make it fun to read and not
(05:14):
terribly dry. But at the same time, if I were
gonna kind of compare it to any book that's out there,
that probably would be the closest comp even though it
came out more than twenty years ago.
Speaker 1 (05:23):
Absolutely well, they'll both be pillars of the you know,
planning and organizational literature for sure. So what do most
people get wrong about planning? I'm sure a lot of
people are listening to this and thing, well, I bought
a planner, Is that what I need to do?
Speaker 3 (05:38):
Yeah? I mean I love planners.
Speaker 2 (05:41):
But one thing people get wrong is that the tool
matters immensely and that if you have exactly the right book,
that all of a sudden you're going to be a
planning genius because you know the book is going to
do all the work for you. And I think it's
so much less about the tools and so much more
about the rituals, which include adding clear descriptions and having
(06:03):
thought put into when you're going to do your planning,
how you're going to do your planning, exactly what elements
you're going to incorporate into your planning rituals. There's so
much more how than there is of a kind of
physical what whether that's a very flashy app or a book.
Speaker 3 (06:17):
So I think that's number one, and.
Speaker 2 (06:19):
Then the number two would be I've heard people say
I don't have time to plan, and to me that
is like a harried chef running around a kitchen saying, well,
I don't have time to sharpen my knife. Because to me, yes,
planning does take time, and it's it's a significant amount
of time, but the time dividends and the sort of
directional dividends in that you're probably going to be spending
more time doing things that actually move forward on the
(06:41):
things you want are so valuable that for me that
time trade off is just so so so worth it.
Speaker 3 (06:47):
So I guess that.
Speaker 2 (06:48):
Would be number one, and number two.
Speaker 1 (06:49):
Yeah, I might even add to that a third that
I think there's this sort of misconception about planning that
it's about planning things you don't want to do, and
so it doesn't sound very appealing because it's like, well,
who wants to put more in that I don't want
to do?
Speaker 2 (07:01):
Oh my gosh, I totally agree with you, and the
idea that the goals mean, you know, all work tasks
or like you know, sweeping the cellar or something like that.
Your goals should be things you're excited to do in life.
Of course, there are going to be things on your
list that you're not like sparkling. Your eyes don't light
up when you see a state planning on there. But
I tell people to aim for like a two to
one ratio of things they are excited about and things
(07:22):
that just have to be done, so that most of
it is moving forward to things that are fun and
that make life feel worth living.
Speaker 1 (07:28):
Absolutely. Well, We're going to take a quick ad break
and then I will be back with more from Sarah
Hart Hunger. Well, we are back. We're talking all things
planning with Sarah Hart Hunger, who has a brand new
book out next week called Best Laid Plans. That is
also the name of her podcast, which you should go
(07:51):
check out. So we talk a lot about weekly planning
on this show. Sarah, I know it's a core part
of my planning processes. What does your weekly planning which
will look like these days?
Speaker 2 (08:02):
I do some of it on Wednesday and some of
it on Sunday recently, so this is a little bit quirky,
but it has to do with the fact that I
generally have full days of patient care on Thursday and
Friday and there just isn't much bandwidth for planning. But
Wednesday is a more creative day for me. It's also
not typically a big recording day. I tend to do
more of that on Mondays. So on Wednesday afternoon, I
(08:25):
tend to make sure my inboxes are relatively up to current,
and I sit there and think through what do I
want to get done for the rest of this week
and then into the next week, and then when it
comes into kind of more I don't know, loftier goal
setting and actually looking at my big month goals and
figuring out what to carry forward, as well as setting
up logistical plans for our household types of things. I
(08:45):
do all of that on Sundays, and that involves actually
physically setting up my planner spread on that Sunday, as
well as what I call our weekly board, where the
kids can then see who has what activities. We also
always have some kind of an interactive component. Typically over
Sunday dinner we review what is on that board, like oh,
are you still going to go to that volunteer event
(09:06):
on Wednesday? And who's going to be picking you up,
and of course we also know ask for input as
to whether there are things that need to change. Therefore,
by the end we have had a discussion and we
have a written component and everything feels pretty set moving
into the week.
Speaker 1 (09:21):
And what does your daily planning ritual look like, because
there's different levels that this all works on.
Speaker 2 (09:26):
Yeah, my daily planning ritual is quick. I probably spend
less than ten minutes planning daily. And that's even an
overstatement really because part of what I call planning is
setting up my planner page in the planner that I use,
which is almost a little bit of a meditative arts
and crafts ritual that I just really enjoy and it
(09:46):
gets my day started on the right foot. But I
will spend time looking at my weekly spread, figuring out
what I have for the day, whether I can figure
out whether I can fit in some additional tasks, put
those tasks on my to do list, kind of map
out my timeline for the day, and get the bowl rolling.
And really that that takes ten minutes or less.
Speaker 1 (10:04):
And you're doing this in the early morning, if I
remember correctly, we are big on morning routines here at
before breakfast. Maybe you could talk us through what a
morning routine tends to look like for you.
Speaker 2 (10:13):
Yes, and I know you talk about in your podcast
how you like to surprise people and tell them you're
not one of those annoying early five am people.
Speaker 1 (10:20):
You are one of those early five am people, aren't you.
Speaker 2 (10:23):
I'm totally annoying, but this has been I'm just wired
this way. Even in residency, when I had to be
at the hospital at five am, I wouldn't get up
at four thirty in rush. I'd be getting up like
at four so I could sit there with my coffee
and have a little bit of morning time. I crave
it so much, and I don't have difficulty waking up early.
I do have difficulties staying up late, so you know,
(10:46):
trade offs, but yes, I do it. I set my
alarm these days for around five, which is actually later
than I used to when I did tons of running,
But around five am, and then by five point fifteen
I'm done with my planning aspects of my routine and
starting some of the other things that I like to do.
Speaker 1 (11:02):
Which include exercising. I believe you have a pretty elaborate
at many mornings you're doing at home exercising, correct.
Speaker 2 (11:09):
Yeah, I have about a sixty to forty split between
at home exercise and then plates classes in a studio,
So my at home exercise days are usually lifting weights
for about thirty minutes.
Speaker 3 (11:19):
I love using guided.
Speaker 2 (11:20):
Videos from various sources, and generally aim to get that
workout started by five point fifty or six because I
know if I don't, then the whole driving to school
rush is going to be thrown off. So that's kind
of my deadline to stop with anything else that I
might be doing during the morning.
Speaker 1 (11:37):
And you also incorporate some reading time into all this.
Speaker 2 (11:40):
Yes, so that's really the other main things that I
do are completing my five year journal. Currently, I've been
experimenting with doing some other freeform journaling and then also
doing some nonfiction reading, maybe just you know, ten pages
or so, but I just find the books really do
add up over the course of the year and it
gets my day started off on a fun note.
Speaker 1 (12:00):
And you are able to exercise at home without waking
people up.
Speaker 2 (12:04):
Yeah, I mean, I am past this phase where a
pin drops in your house and you hear a baby wail,
but no one really wakes up. I have to drag
everyone out of bed in the morning, I'm able to
kind of go to a corner of our house and
we have a mat setup, we have weights all set up.
I do set my workout clothes on my bedroom floor
the night before, so I kind of have a whole
(12:25):
ritual going. But yeah, generally it's not too much of
an issue. And of course I use headphones when I'm
doing these guided workouts, but the AirPods seem to stay
in my ears despite squats and deadlifts and all those things.
Speaker 1 (12:36):
Pretty amazing. It's amazing what technology can do. So but
that allows us to pivot to a different topic, which
when you came on this show last time, longtime listeners
may recall we were sort of celebrating how you had
achieved some of your big athletic goals, you know, like
qualifying for the Boston Marathon in the middle of a
very full life of practicing as a physician, having your
(12:59):
creative job, three kids. That took a big turn this year.
Maybe you could talk about the development since our last
recording together.
Speaker 3 (13:07):
Yeah, it's crazy.
Speaker 2 (13:08):
I mean I still remember that day of crossing the
finish line and knowing I had met the goal I
had set for so many years and was really having
a blast in my running life. In March of this year,
I set out to run a half marathon. I've run
tons over the course of the year. It was like
a regular day like any other, but midway through the race,
or actually towards the end of the race, I felt
(13:29):
something really weird happened to me where I just felt
like I couldn't go anymore. And I assumed it was
the bunk I had heard about so many times but
never really experienced. But I got to the finish line somehow,
and then it didn't seem to be going away, even
though I was at that point walking and was like, huh,
Usually you know when you stop you should feel better,
but I was not feeling better. I ended up going
to the medical tent and a couple times. The first
(13:51):
time they were like, yeah, you seem fine. The second
time they started to look a little bit more concerned
and put a heart monitor on me, which is when
we found out that my heart was going two hundred
and sixty five beats a minute, completely ventricular tact cardia
and did not seem to want to stop doing that.
You cannot really live long term like that. So my
blood pressure started to drop and I got dizzy and
(14:12):
I ended up getting taken to the hospital right near
the race, where I got sedated a million ivs put
in and shocked out of it, and you know, woke
up in the hospital. And turns out that I ended
up getting a ton of testing done over the next
few days, because why was this healthy runner who's done
you know, tons of racism, was running sixty miles a
(14:33):
week on a regular basis having this arrhythmia. And it
turns out I have a cardiac issue that causes a
rhythmias that develops over time. Is more common if you've
had a lot of endurance exercise, but it's probably also genetic.
It's called a rhythmagenic cardiomyopathy. It took a couple months
to get the formal, finalized diagnosis from experts, But long
story short, I did find out my running career was
(14:56):
to a final, permanent end by spring of twenty twenty
five and had to spend some time processing that. But
I would say at this point have pretty much come
out on the other side.
Speaker 1 (15:06):
Yeah, but let's talk about that. I mean, just resiliency.
Are there practical tips like you could share it with people?
On resiliency? You had something that was a big part
of your life sort of taken away in a very
spectacular fashion. I imagine a lot of people would be bitter
about this, and you know, it was your social outlet,
it was your kind of fun outlet. What did you
(15:29):
do to kind of get to a place where you
can be just you know, saying it matter of factly
like this.
Speaker 3 (15:37):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (15:38):
Well, and to add a little other layer, I ended
up having a defibrillator implanted into me, and it's also
a condition with a bit.
Speaker 3 (15:45):
Of an uncertain prognosis over time.
Speaker 2 (15:47):
But I actually think of anything that kind of helped
me a little bit because I had just had instant
perspective of I guess how much like worse things could
have been, or how lucky I am that I still
have like normal cardiac function and an overall good outlet.
I think if you had told me, you know, running
was going to be taken away and there was no
other context, I'd be mad. But it's like, well, running
(16:09):
was taken away, but this was caught in time for
you to avoid heart failure, and maybe you know you
could have died on a run by yourself. There's instantly
a little bit of perspective there, so in a way,
I'm grateful for how things played out and how they happened.
I also went to therapy. I think sometimes you just
need to talk through things incessantly with someone else who's
willing to listen. And I didn't go for a million weeks.
(16:31):
I probably went for two or three months every week
or so, but I found that really helpful in processing things,
and definitely just talking with friends and sharing my story
with others was helpful.
Speaker 3 (16:41):
But I don't know.
Speaker 2 (16:42):
I think the biggest overarching thing is that I'm just like, Wow,
my life has so many other amazing things to offer.
Speaker 3 (16:48):
I'm still here.
Speaker 2 (16:49):
I still feel pretty good day to day, Like I
just think there's so much of a bright side to
look on that that's what I choose to focus on
most of the time.
Speaker 1 (16:56):
Absolutely well, and also looking for ways to spend some
of that same time. I know you got very into
other forms of athletic.
Speaker 2 (17:06):
Totally, and that is another aspect I feel really grateful
for that I still can do some exercise. There are
certain forms of what I have with certain gene mutations
where I really couldn't do anything other than walk, but
that's not my situation. So I can lift weights, and
I appreciate that I can do that. I decided I
needed some sort of in person exercise that would just
feel a little bit more I don't know consuming, I guess,
(17:26):
so I decided to try pilates, and it turned out
I do enjoy it. Kind of brings me back to
my like gymnastics or cheerleading days a little bit, and
it's just kind of a little bit inherently fun.
Speaker 1 (17:35):
So that's great.
Speaker 2 (17:36):
I think the one thing that's still missing for me
is the social aspect of running. Since I had some
great running friends i'd see many mornings that I don't
see much of anymore, and just the big hobby aspect.
It was also something fun I shared with my husband
because you know, we qualified for Boston together at the
same race. And yeah, I feel like I'm still in
(17:57):
search of something to kind of replace that void life.
Speaker 1 (18:00):
All right, Well, a goal for the next year, for sure.
We're going to take one more quick ad break and
then I will be back with more from Sarah hart Unger.
So I am back talking with Sarah hart Hunger, who's
the author of the brand new book which is out
next week called Best Laid Plans. Some of you may
(18:20):
recognize her as my co host on the Best of
Both Worlds podcasts as well. So, Sarah, one of the
things we've been talking about on this show more in
the last few months as evening rituals. So obviously Before
Breakfast is all about mornings as well, but how we
end the day matters as well. And you mentioned you're
kind of a going to bed sort of early person.
I wonder what your evenings look like, if you have
(18:41):
any rituals that you are thinking make life better Right now.
Speaker 2 (18:45):
I love reading, so I almost always read before bed,
so that's one thing. And I have come to terms
with myself that after a certain point in the day
I'm not going to be very productive, and I think
it was helpful to just be like, this is kind
of your experiencing heyng out time rather than getting things
done time. Once I realized that I could settle into
it a little bit more. So, I'm super excited to
(19:07):
hear what is in the book Golden Hours, but I
hope there's a lot of room for like just hanging
out with your family and sitting on the couch.
Speaker 1 (19:14):
Well, definitely, I mean we all we talk about is
like thirty minute intentions. Is there something you want to
do for thirty minutes and it sounds like reading? Is
that for you? How do you figure out what you're
going to read next?
Speaker 3 (19:23):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (19:24):
I always have a few books that I've had recommended
to me. They're sitting on a list somewhere, or I
put them on my library holds list and then they
come in. Like recently, someone had mentioned the book Culpability
and they said, oh, it has Ai and it was
like kind of like White Lotus, and I was like, okay,
I'm so sold. And then it happened to come from
my library and I read it in a few days
because it was just so good. Mostly in the evenings, Yeah, wonderful.
(19:46):
So nonfiction in the morning, fiction in the evening, if
you want to read.
Speaker 1 (19:49):
Like Sarah here, So Sarah, I ask all my guests
this question, what is something you have done recently to
take a day from great to awesome?
Speaker 2 (19:57):
Anytime that I can get out and experienced some kind
of event that I had planned for my future self
is really really fun and exciting and so.
Speaker 3 (20:07):
Well, this was kind of a fail, but it was
also a success.
Speaker 2 (20:10):
So the other day my friend and I she wanted
me to come try out her pilate studio. And this
took a little bit of doing. It also took my
wonderful family not minding me leaving on a weekend to
go to a workout class kind of in the meal
of the afternoon. But we planned it in and I
went and I had a great time. And even though
it seems like a small thing, it was friend time.
(20:31):
It was a different type of exercise, and it was
just sort of like something we had come up with
that had come to fruition. So I would say, like
making little plans with friends and then enjoying them when
they happened.
Speaker 1 (20:41):
But wait, why was there You said there was something
of a fail to it. I'm curious.
Speaker 2 (20:44):
Well, yes, so it was also supposed to be our
friends giving and my husband was going to join us
there later, but they drove on a nail And yeah,
but at least I got to hang out with my friend.
Speaker 1 (20:56):
Bestaid plans as we say, they did. Yeah, because things
that we planned don't always work out right. But that
doesn't mean you shouldn't.
Speaker 2 (21:03):
Oh my gosh, I totally agree. And in fact, you know,
my friend and I were laughing about the fact that
it didn't happen but they're like, well, at least we
kind of have the men you figured out, because we
picked another date that we're going to do it. And
the truth is, let's say you for every ten things
you plan, eight of them happen. And I do think
you should always try your best to make sure you
can have them happen. But actually his battery then died
(21:24):
as he was changing the tire and we're like an
hour away, so like it could not happen. We just
had to like wave the white flag at that point.
You know that one couldn't happen. But if eight out
of ten things do happen, that's still a lot of
great things.
Speaker 1 (21:36):
Yeah, and many of those might not happen if we
were just trying to, you know, see how life went.
Speaker 2 (21:41):
Oh, none of them would happen. I mean, like one
of them would serendipitously happen. I'll take eight over one.
Speaker 1 (21:46):
Yeah, eight over one is a good ratio. So, Sarah,
what are you looking forward to right now?
Speaker 2 (21:50):
I am looking forward to my family trip to Montana
to go skiing. It's actually our fourth time. We're big
repeaters of destination. But I am just I have very
busy month of December ahead. I'm going in with a
very clear head. I know how much time I have
and what I need to get done in those weeks.
But you know, there's like a light at the end
of the tunnel. And I'm also looking forward to my
(22:12):
book coming out into the world. That's been a long
time calming and I'm just very excited to share it
with everyone.
Speaker 1 (22:16):
Yeah. Absolutely, so everyone can check out the book Best
Laid Plans by Sarah hart Unger. So, Sarah, where can
people find you?
Speaker 2 (22:23):
Yes, so, well, you can find me with Laura of
course at Best of Both Worlds podcasts. You can find
me on Best Laid Plans podcasts, and you can find
me at my website, which is the shoebox dot com
th e s h u box dot com. You can
find all my show notes, you can find book information
everything else there.
Speaker 1 (22:41):
Excellent. Well, Sarah, thank you so much for joining us.
Thank you to everyone for listening. If you have feedback
on this or any other episode, you can always reach
me at Laura at Laura vandercam dot com. In the meantime,
this is Laura. Thanks for listening, and here's to making
the most of our time. Thanks for listening to Before Breakfast.
(23:06):
If you've got questions, ideas, or feedback, you can reach
me at Laura at Laura vandercam dot com. Before Breakfast
is a production of iHeartMedia. For more podcasts from iHeartMedia,
please visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you
(23:28):
listen to your favorite shows.
Before Breakfast News
Host
Laura Vanderkam
Show Links
AboutPopular Podcasts
Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang
Ding dong! Join your culture consultants, Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang, on an unforgettable journey into the beating heart of CULTURE. Alongside sizzling special guests, they GET INTO the hottest pop-culture moments of the day and the formative cultural experiences that turned them into Culturistas. Produced by the Big Money Players Network and iHeartRadio.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.