October 1, 2025 • 23 mins
Career expert Mita Mallick shares how to deal with bad managers, and how to become a good one
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Welcome to Before Breakfast, a production of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
Good Morning. This is Laura, Welcome to the Before Breakfast podcast.
Today's episode is going to be a longer one part
of the series where I interview fascinating people about how
they take their days from great to awesome and any
advice they have for the rest of us. So today,
I'm delighted to welcome Meta Malik to Before Breakfast. Meta
(00:30):
has worked extensively in marketing and human resources and is
the author of the brand new book, The Devil Emails
at Midnight, What Good Leaders Can Learn From Bad Bosses.
Speaker 1 (00:39):
So Vida, welcome to the show.
Speaker 3 (00:41):
Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited
for our conversation today.
Speaker 2 (00:45):
Yeah, I'm excited as well. So why don't you tell
our listeners a little bit about yourself?
Speaker 3 (00:49):
So I Meeta Malik. I've been both a marketing and
human resources executive. I'm a passionate storyteller, and I'm on
a mission to fix what's broken in our workplaces.
Speaker 4 (00:58):
And as you mentioned, I have a new.
Speaker 3 (01:00):
Book coming out called The Devil Emails at Midnight, What
Good Leaders can learn from Good boss from Bad Bosses?
And what is top of mind for me right now
is I'm on a journey to raise kind and inclusive
human beings.
Speaker 4 (01:12):
And it's tough.
Speaker 3 (01:12):
And I'm sure every generation of parents said the same thing,
But it is.
Speaker 4 (01:16):
It is rough, It.
Speaker 2 (01:17):
Is rough, exactly exactly what we all do the best
we can. Well, I want to start with the title
of your book. Is there anything inherently wrong about emailing
at midnight?
Speaker 4 (01:28):
M I love that question.
Speaker 3 (01:30):
Not inherently, it is the persistent hum of it, the constant,
continuous rhythm of always emailing off hours and in the
double emails at midnight. The opening chapter is the scene
of the boss who never had time for me. So
I would chase her around the office like a golden retriever.
I just wanted to be seen. I wanted hello, I
(01:51):
wanted to thank you. I chased her into the parking
lot once Laura, I was trying like she would never
have time for me, except between the hours of ten
pm and two am, where she would dump out or inbox.
Can you pay this invoice, can you work on the stack?
Can you send this note? And and I was there willing
to respond because I wanted to be seen. And so
that's the question is, isn't the biggest complaint in our
(02:13):
relationships that we don't have time for each other. And
so it's true in the workplace too, And so that's
what that's what it really means about, if you're only
available at midnight.
Speaker 1 (02:23):
Yeah, because when I heard that, I mean one of
the things you know, we've talked about on this podcast.
Speaker 2 (02:28):
And some of the research I've done, and I know
you're a working mom, right that one of the things
that happens is a lot of parents who are also
professionals try to in their work day a hard stop.
Speaker 1 (02:41):
Yes, five thirty for day care pickup.
Speaker 4 (02:43):
Yes, absolutely, Ye, you're in it.
Speaker 1 (02:46):
I know you're in it right now.
Speaker 2 (02:48):
And so then you know, you play with your kid,
put your kid to bed, yes, And now it's email time.
Speaker 1 (02:54):
And so you know, the many people who probably.
Speaker 2 (02:58):
Are emailing in that you know, nine pm, two whatever
window of the day may not always be doing it
to be terrible. So I think, you know, we're trying
to figure out, like, what what is the way we.
Speaker 1 (03:09):
Can you know, indicate to people that were not trying
to be terrible.
Speaker 3 (03:14):
Yeah, And I love that you said that some people
have an out of office or something in their signature
that says, these are the hours that work for me.
Don't feel the need to respond. I do think when
you're the boss, you hold power in your organization. So
if I'm repeatedly emailing and doing the second shift, and
then what happens is really interesting, Right, I will you
work for me, and I will say to you not
to email me back, but you will, and then this
(03:36):
back and forth.
Speaker 4 (03:36):
Right.
Speaker 3 (03:37):
So some approaches could be delay the sending of it, right,
but then I don't want to wake up in the
morning and have thirty emails at nine am that'll arrive.
That's not helpful either. But anythink Laura, what it forces
people to do to say, why does this have to
be an email? Because here's what I have been guilty of.
I want to get it off my plate and onto yours,
so I just want to send it. So if I
(03:57):
actually paused and said, is this an email? Or is
this when I know I'm meeting with Laura on Wednesday,
I'm putting this on my list for the one on
one I'm saving that email, or it's going to be
in our team meeting that we do every month, you know.
So it forces people to really think about you're just
using email to dump your inbox out, which sometimes you've
been guilty of, or you're going to be more strategic
of how are you going to communicate with your team?
Speaker 1 (04:19):
Yeah, well, making good communication is probably you know, thoughtful
communication is definitely a good boss move.
Speaker 2 (04:27):
So what are some other sort of more toxic forms
of communication or bad forms of communication that the bad
bosses are are own for doing? Well?
Speaker 3 (04:35):
It kind of started during the pandemic, didn't it. We
have so many ways to interact with each other from
a technology perspective. So I had a boss who would
you know, send the email? But then it's the slack,
the text, the phone call, the missed FaceTime audio. You're like,
wait a minute, I'm in a meeting, Like why do
like I got the email wait for me to respond, right,
(04:57):
And so it's your point of like what are good
communication styles and vehicles? And you have to think about
like for me, if I go to like tier one,
if something is urgent, my team is going to get
a phone call from me, and that means budget cuts, restructuring,
someone leaving the team. Like it's if you get the
phone call, you know I need you right away, and
(05:19):
then you don't abuse that often, right, because if everything's urgent,
nothing's urgent. And then when you're emailing something and you
don't need a response for two days or whatever, the
deadline is, let the person respond because likely they're not
responding because they're in the bathroom, which they're allowed to do.
They're they're taking a snack break or getting some water,
or they're in a meeting doing work.
Speaker 2 (05:39):
Yeah, so thinking about what is the urgency level of
the communication and matching the appropriate communication to that. So,
I mean, let's talk about the idea of bad bosses
in general, though, I mean our bad boss is born
or made?
Speaker 1 (05:53):
I mean, do people do good bosses become bad bosses?
Is that something they do?
Speaker 3 (05:57):
Yeah, that's what I believe, and that's what I've been studying.
Bad bosses are not born, they're made. I've gone from
being a good leader to a bad boss. In the
Devil Emails at Midnight, I chronicle thirteen leaders, including myself.
And what's interesting, Laura, someone who's a bad boss for
me could be a good boss for you. And so
it's about context and situation. This boss could be a
(06:18):
terrible micromanager for me, like oh my god, Mike Maridgian.
Speaker 4 (06:21):
And then you might be newer to the team, and
so they actually know.
Speaker 3 (06:23):
I need this level of support and hold handholding for
the moment, and so I think that's really important. But
we can swing from being good to bad and bad
to good.
Speaker 2 (06:34):
Okay, Well, let's hope that we're all going in the
right direction. Then I'm going to take a quick ad
break and then I'll be back with more from Meta Malik. Well,
I am back talking with Meta Malik, who is the
author of the brand new book The Devil Emails at Midnight.
(06:57):
So let's talk a little bit more about if somebody
is listening to this and wondering, Hm, am I a
bad boss?
Speaker 4 (07:07):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (07:07):
I mean it doesn't always get you know, written on
the board like she's a bad boss, she's terrible. How
can we suss that out if our team members are
unhappy with our leadership?
Speaker 3 (07:17):
I love that you used daughter language from my daughter,
sus it out right. Here's what I would say is
that there are three moments when bad boss behavior is
going to show up. Typically, one is something's happening in
the external market. They're tariffs, your competition has beat you
to the market with innovation, something has an m and
a acquisition has failed. Right, something's happening, it's causing havoc,
(07:41):
it's causing stress. Second, your boss is behaving badly, and
in my house we say pooh pooh, trickles down. So
now you're taking on this person's energy. And then the
third is something's happened in your personal life. You've lost
a loved one, you've suffered a miscarriage, you break up, divorce, move,
all these things that are really like earthquakes in your life,
(08:03):
and like, how do you handle that? So that's important,
And then I think, you know, for me, I'll give
myself as an example. I know that micromanaging is my
toxic habit. I love a good slut and I love
the good details, and I want to get everything right.
And so if I know those moments, I can catch myself.
But someone might ask, like, how do you do this?
It's like for me, I've had career journals throughout my life,
(08:25):
and I will document things that are happening. And I
think most people Laura know when they're behaving badly. This
book is not for the baddest of the bad bosses
who've made headlines. It's for the rest of us. And
so most of us know that something's off, and then
if we can start to document, and then I think
the next thing is to ask for feedback. And how
I like to do this is not a former boss
(08:48):
who would say, at the end of my performance review,
how do you think I'm doing? Tell me how I'm doing,
and you're like ah, And then I tell him the
truth and he loses it and he's like, that's actually
not true, and I'm like, okay, never giving you feedback again.
But if you put something in writing, like I say,
Laura looking forward to coffee on Friday when we chat,
I wanted to share with you some of the things
I'm working on in terms of my own career development.
(09:09):
One of the things I want to work on is
how do I delegate faster and how do I help
coach the team through some of these mistakes. I'd love
your feedback on that. And actually I wouldn't even use
the word feedback. I would say coaching, right, because feedback
sounds so like oh, black or white, right or wrong right?
And so if I did that, I give you time
(09:29):
to digest it.
Speaker 4 (09:30):
I'm vulnerable.
Speaker 3 (09:31):
I'm telling you the things I'm working on, and then
when we have the conversation, you might actually say, that's
not actually what I think you should be working on.
Speaker 4 (09:38):
I actually think it's this.
Speaker 1 (09:40):
Well, giving feedback to a manager is incredibly challenging.
Speaker 2 (09:44):
Yeah, and I think, well, the first problem is if
your manager is sort of open to good feedback, that
that manager is probably not that.
Speaker 4 (09:50):
Bad exactly exactly.
Speaker 2 (09:52):
Yes, yes, yes, there is a bit of a catch
twenty two here here with this, But I mean, is
there a way to suss out using that phrase again
if someone is a problematic boss before taking a job, like,
or what are some smart things that we should be
doing through the interview process?
Speaker 3 (10:09):
Well, a bad boss likely might also be sign of
toxic culture.
Speaker 1 (10:16):
Right.
Speaker 3 (10:16):
So one example I have that I'll never forget is
I interviewed at a big beauty brand and void did
I want this on my resume? And so I'll never forget.
I did eleven rounds of interviews in a day and
they didn't even offer me a glass of water. And
my mom said, they didn't offer you a glass of water,
you shouldn't take the job. Isn't that interesting? She said,
they didn't, And I said, no, I'm gonna take it,
Like that's such a stupid reason not to take the job.
(10:38):
And let me tell you the signs were there, from
the rushed interview process, from the back to backs to
the everyone I loved except my future boss isn't that
interesting and so was distracted, disengaged, talked over me, didn't
really seem interested in being there, and I sort of
overlooked it because I really wanted the job. I mean
other signs.
Speaker 4 (10:57):
I say.
Speaker 3 (10:58):
It's like I like a good movie trailer. So it's
the sneak peek into what it might be like to
work there. So if the organization is hot and cold,
they want you to meet next week, two days of interviewing,
and then they go cold, and then they re engage
you like two months later, and you see the job
posting sorely on LinkedIn, there's something up. If the recruiter
(11:19):
pressures you on the next day to accept the offer
on the spot, something's up. And then just watch for
the nonverbals. If people seem in interviews not that interested,
or there seem like they're going through the motions, everyone's
showing up late with really no apology or excuse.
Speaker 4 (11:38):
You could really.
Speaker 3 (11:41):
Sense a lot from what is being unsaid in those conversations.
And sometimes the signs are there and I've been guilty.
Speaker 4 (11:47):
I haven't. I just ignored them. I wanted to jump.
Speaker 1 (11:50):
Well, I mean it's are they showing respect to you?
Speaker 2 (11:53):
Yes, it's in it that would potentially be working with
as a colleague. Because people don't suddenly become or respectful.
Speaker 3 (12:01):
You will also, Yeah, and you should be on your
best behavior. Isn't that true when I interview people? Yeah,
I'm going to be myself, but I'm going to try
a little hard to term you just a little bit
extra because I want you to come.
Speaker 4 (12:11):
Because you want to.
Speaker 1 (12:12):
Yeah, if they be bothered to spend time with this candidate.
Speaker 4 (12:16):
But but here's the thing.
Speaker 1 (12:17):
So, if you do have a bad boss, if.
Speaker 2 (12:20):
You're working for somebody who would fit in one of
these categories in your book, is your.
Speaker 1 (12:25):
Only option to quit?
Speaker 2 (12:26):
Or can you maybe you know, either reach your peace
with the situation or make it better or move yourself around.
Speaker 3 (12:32):
Yeah, I mean I think that's a great question. The
book is not about quit every time you have a
bad boss. And in my dedication to my children, and
I said, dedicated the book, and I said, you're going
to have a bad boss one day, and I'm going
to hand you this book because it's about like we
will all have bad bosses. But you know, when I
talk about the thirteen, three of them really impacted my
mental health. And so if it's to the point where
(12:52):
you're finding yourself being chipped away, you're being screamed at,
you know true story the Medusa who threw a Chanel
shoe at my colleague, right, these things, Yeah, that's not
a place you want to be. But there's a few options.
Number One, you can try to manage the boss, depending
on what the you try to retrain them. We go
back to your question on how people communicate an over communicator.
(13:13):
I had a boss who would text me pretty much
every other day at six am, just random thoughts and
things they were thinking, and I wouldn't respond until eight
thirty over email. And I started to retrain them to
go back to email and stop showing up in my
text unless it's important. The second is you can look
for career allies and sponsors within your company and see
(13:33):
if you can make a move within. And then the
third thing is if it's something that you don't think
you can tolerate for much longer, then that's a decision
you have to make. But if it's someone who's a
micromanaging boss and it's slowly h start creating the exit plan,
but also take the time to say, I'm going to
work for Meta for the next six months, and I'm
(13:55):
going to make sure I get the right bullets on
my resume. Let me make the most of this, right,
I make the most of this opportunity and say I'm
not going to leave until I've finished this project or
learned these skills.
Speaker 2 (14:06):
Yeah, well, that can help you feel a lot more
in charge of a situation too, that it's like, Okay,
it's just business.
Speaker 1 (14:12):
We're transactional.
Speaker 2 (14:13):
I'm not under this person's thumb for the rest of
my life. I Am just here for the next six
months and.
Speaker 1 (14:21):
Tell it absolutely figure something out.
Speaker 2 (14:22):
All right, We're gonna take one more quick ad break
and then I'll be back with more from Meata Mallek. Well,
I am back talking with Meta Malik, who is the
author of the new book The Devil.
Speaker 1 (14:38):
Emails at Midnight. Sounding like you've had a lot of
experience in the fashion.
Speaker 2 (14:42):
Industry, so with the real sort of Devilwares product kind
of where this comes from.
Speaker 1 (14:46):
Yes, a classic bad boss in the in the movies.
Speaker 2 (14:51):
So I'm curious you know, what is your I mean,
this is a productivity show.
Speaker 1 (14:55):
What is your schedule looking like?
Speaker 4 (14:56):
These days?
Speaker 3 (14:58):
My schedule is looking like Interestingly enough, I am taking
many more breaks than I used to. I have been
guilty of taking, you know, treating myself like an uber app.
There'll be days where I'd be on Zoom all day
and then at the end it's like the Zoom hangover.
You're plopping on your couch at nine pm at night
and You're like, oh my god, like what just happened?
Speaker 4 (15:18):
Because I've been on video all day or calls on day.
So the thing I'm.
Speaker 3 (15:21):
Doing now is I'm actually trying to take walks really quickly,
even if it's like ten to fifteen minutes, and go
outside because to energize myself. I also like to do
a good dance off with my kids, you know, put
some music on anything to just honestly, the productivity hack
for me is to step away from the keyboard so
I can be more productive, because otherwise I find myself
(15:42):
you'll get sucked into things if you're not blocking out
time to actually go refresh and recharg I mean, god,
even our phones need to be recharged, right, So that's
the biggest hack I have right now.
Speaker 2 (15:53):
Yeah, do you have any sort of morning routine or
are You're not a morning routine person.
Speaker 3 (15:57):
I am a morning routine person. I mean I get
up before the calm, the calm before the storm in
my house. So the night before I'm doing everything to
get the kids ready for school or right now it's
summer camp. God help us, right, So we're doing that,
but everything as much as I can to be prepared
so that in the morning I can be up alone
reading or writing and having a cup of tea for
(16:18):
about fifteen to twenty minutes, depending on when everyone wakes up,
and then it's probably like ninety minutes of everything to
get everyone out of the house and then I'm starting
my work day or going to the gym and then
starting work.
Speaker 2 (16:31):
Yeah, so what sort of time are we talking is
this is this quiet moment happening? Like how early do
you have to be up to get your calm?
Speaker 3 (16:39):
It could be as early as I have usually five
thirty six am. But I'm not somebody who's up at midnight.
You know, I'm going to say, I am going to
say that I'm not a say I'm not ashamed to
say I'm sleeping at midnight. And there is this like
anti hustle culture movement where it's like, you should.
Speaker 4 (16:56):
Be my god, you're sleeping at midnight. Right.
Speaker 3 (16:59):
I had a boss be like, you didn't respond to
my note.
Speaker 4 (17:01):
We needed approval. I'm like, it was eleven o'clock at night.
Speaker 3 (17:04):
I'll never forget. This is very pandemic, and he was
annoyed with me. And I woke up in the morning
to all these texts.
Speaker 4 (17:09):
I was like, I was.
Speaker 3 (17:09):
Asleep, right, and so, yeah, but you can be guilty
on the other end. So if I'm up early, I'm
not sending emails. I'm trying not to send emails super
early eiler. Right, it can be either end.
Speaker 2 (17:19):
Yeah, keep it relatively within the context of the work day.
So any sort of other routines that make you more
productive as you're juggling your various projects. I'm curious what
your sort of planning process looks like with all that.
Speaker 3 (17:33):
Yeah, I have Actually people ask me what are you
using in terms of technology. I love an old school
notebook and a journal and why I keep it next
to me in meetings And it's not what you would think.
It's not for a note taking, but it's for idea generation,
because you can have pretty much in every meeting now
like somebody you know, somebody in quotes taking notes right
(17:55):
and transcribing them for you. But to have idea generation,
like if I'm sitting here with you in our conversation
and something comes up, I could quickly just jot it
down right, And so that way, that's much more productive
for me because I can go back and look at
all those ideas and it's not a paragraph, but it
might be something that you said like two words, and
I write it down. So then when I go back later,
(18:16):
I'm inspired to write a social media post, write an article,
it might be the book idea And so that's really
important to me.
Speaker 2 (18:23):
And I also it's saying you find it good to
have it as a paper notebook.
Speaker 3 (18:27):
I do. I do, but because for me, when I
write something down, I digest it and I remember it.
That doesn't mean that I'm like handwriting my books, but
I do think there are some moments where I think
if I can write it down, it will stick with
me much more.
Speaker 4 (18:42):
And then I'm doing what many other.
Speaker 3 (18:43):
People are doing, which is you have to block sort
of if you make your calendar access to access to everyone,
then don't be upset if you're booked, you know, seven
to seven, and so you know, blocking time to do
email or writing or you know, thinking and actual work
is important.
Speaker 1 (19:01):
Yeah, well that's interesting.
Speaker 2 (19:02):
Yeah, I mean, tasks take time, and so if you
aren't willing to allocate times to them, then they.
Speaker 1 (19:08):
Exactly aren't going to happen.
Speaker 2 (19:10):
So right, that's what has us maybe emailing at midnight sometimes.
Speaker 4 (19:14):
Absolutely, I haven't built in.
Speaker 2 (19:15):
Time during the day, which is that what I mean
should a god boss do that? I mean, should they
be blocking out time for those those emails and that
administration stuff like that? I mean very you know, how
would you see as like a good boss scheduled during
they should?
Speaker 3 (19:29):
I mean, but with the you think about in the
race to embrace AI, a lot of this work should
be automated. And you hope that AI doesn't create a
generation of lazy bosses, right because if a lot of
this work is being automated, then you actually have time.
The biggest complaint we started is not enough time for
my team. And I think about my calendar like I
think about my closet. There's a bunch of stuff I
don't wear. There's a bunch of stuff I don't need,
(19:50):
bunch of stuff that's outgrown, et cetera, et cetera. You know,
the worst feeling, Laura is like you're in a meeting
and you all show up and you're like, what's this
meeting about? Nobody knows. You hang around for ten fifteen minutes,
and then someone maybe has the courage to call it,
or it goes on for a while and then the
person's like, oh, Laura was supposed to be here, she's
the decision maker, she's out on vacation.
Speaker 4 (20:08):
Oops. What.
Speaker 3 (20:10):
Or it's a meeting that's just been going on for
months that you don't need anymore. And so I think
finding people having the courage to say, we're not doing
this meeting because of the following reasons. It's being discussed elsewhere.
It could be a slack approval's already done, the project's finished,
get the meeting off the calendar, and then you actually
have more time to be emailing. You have more time
to be meeting with people and teaching them and coaching them.
(20:32):
And many bosses and some organizations you've got assistants who
can also help you track your time as well.
Speaker 2 (20:40):
Yeah, yeah, well time is valuable and treating it as
such is very important. So ATA I always ask my guests,
what is something you have done recently to take a
day from great to awesome?
Speaker 3 (20:52):
Take a day from great to awesome? What an amazing question?
Just duck out early, can things and go with my
kids to get ice cream, to go to the movies,
to do something spontaneous that sparks a moment of joy
that they like to do, and I'm happy to join
them in.
Speaker 4 (21:11):
Those are the things.
Speaker 3 (21:12):
And I'm not canceling on people last minute, but just like, oh,
this can be moved, Like why is this.
Speaker 4 (21:16):
Is actually urgent? It's not urgent, but it's important.
Speaker 3 (21:21):
I'm going to push it out a few days and
so yeah, that's like when I feel like I get
to spend time with the people I love, it goes
to being like just a great day.
Speaker 1 (21:28):
Yeah, awesome, that is awesome. And what are you looking
forward to right now?
Speaker 3 (21:34):
I'm looking forward to my kids going back to school
and leaving summer camp patchwork, which for any any parents
working outside the home, it's tough, right it is.
Speaker 4 (21:44):
It's tough with them.
Speaker 2 (21:45):
Yeah, I mean the hours are different, the you know,
some have some have before care and aftercare which is great.
Not I'll do, but then you know there's often not
the bus, right, like you know you had the bus.
Speaker 4 (21:57):
Yeah, all those things everything.
Speaker 3 (21:58):
I'm so excited for my book to come out because
I really feel like it's going to really help people
and change the way they think about work and how
they lead and how they interact with each other. So
that is something I'm really looking forward to to a
thing out and hearing people read it and tell me
what they think about it.
Speaker 1 (22:14):
Absolutely well, meet it. Where can people find you?
Speaker 3 (22:18):
You can find me on LinkedIn. I love to meet
new people, so please DM me and you can find
me on.
Speaker 4 (22:23):
Medamalk dot com.
Speaker 3 (22:24):
And the book The Double Emails at Midnight, available on Amazon,
Barnes and Noble, your local independent bookstore anywhere you buy books.
Speaker 2 (22:31):
Absolutely all right, Well, Anita, thank you so much for
joining us. Thank you to everyone for listening. If you
have feedback about this or any other episode, you can
always reach me at Laura at Laura vandercam dot com.
I may email you back at midnight, but you don't
have to respond to me then. So in the meantime,
this is Laura.
Speaker 1 (22:49):
Thanks for listening, and here's to making the most of
our time. Thanks for listening to Before Breakfast. If you've
got questions, ideas, or feedback, you can reach me at
Laura at Laura vandercam dot com. Before Breakfast is a
(23:15):
production of iHeartMedia.
Speaker 2 (23:17):
For more podcasts from iHeartMedia, please visit the iHeartRadio app,
Apple
Speaker 1 (23:22):
Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Welcome to Before Breakfast, a production of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
Good Morning. This is Laura, Welcome to the Before Breakfast podcast.
Today's episode is going to be a longer one part
of the series where I interview fascinating people about how
they take their days from great to awesome and any
advice they have for the rest of us. So today,
I'm delighted to welcome Meta Malik to Before Breakfast. Meta
(00:30):
has worked extensively in marketing and human resources and is
the author of the brand new book, The Devil Emails
at Midnight, What Good Leaders Can Learn From Bad Bosses.
Speaker 1 (00:39):
So Vida, welcome to the show.
Speaker 3 (00:41):
Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited
for our conversation today.
Speaker 2 (00:45):
Yeah, I'm excited as well. So why don't you tell
our listeners a little bit about yourself?
Speaker 3 (00:49):
So I Meeta Malik. I've been both a marketing and
human resources executive. I'm a passionate storyteller, and I'm on
a mission to fix what's broken in our workplaces.
Speaker 4 (00:58):
And as you mentioned, I have a new.
Speaker 3 (01:00):
Book coming out called The Devil Emails at Midnight, What
Good Leaders can learn from Good boss from Bad Bosses?
And what is top of mind for me right now
is I'm on a journey to raise kind and inclusive
human beings.
Speaker 4 (01:12):
And it's tough.
Speaker 3 (01:12):
And I'm sure every generation of parents said the same thing,
But it is.
Speaker 4 (01:16):
It is rough, It.
Speaker 2 (01:17):
Is rough, exactly exactly what we all do the best
we can. Well, I want to start with the title
of your book. Is there anything inherently wrong about emailing
at midnight?
Speaker 4 (01:28):
M I love that question.
Speaker 3 (01:30):
Not inherently, it is the persistent hum of it, the constant,
continuous rhythm of always emailing off hours and in the
double emails at midnight. The opening chapter is the scene
of the boss who never had time for me. So
I would chase her around the office like a golden retriever.
I just wanted to be seen. I wanted hello, I
(01:51):
wanted to thank you. I chased her into the parking
lot once Laura, I was trying like she would never
have time for me, except between the hours of ten
pm and two am, where she would dump out or inbox.
Can you pay this invoice, can you work on the stack?
Can you send this note? And and I was there willing
to respond because I wanted to be seen. And so
that's the question is, isn't the biggest complaint in our
(02:13):
relationships that we don't have time for each other. And
so it's true in the workplace too, And so that's
what that's what it really means about, if you're only
available at midnight.
Speaker 1 (02:23):
Yeah, because when I heard that, I mean one of
the things you know, we've talked about on this podcast.
Speaker 2 (02:28):
And some of the research I've done, and I know
you're a working mom, right that one of the things
that happens is a lot of parents who are also
professionals try to in their work day a hard stop.
Speaker 1 (02:41):
Yes, five thirty for day care pickup.
Speaker 4 (02:43):
Yes, absolutely, Ye, you're in it.
Speaker 1 (02:46):
I know you're in it right now.
Speaker 2 (02:48):
And so then you know, you play with your kid,
put your kid to bed, yes, And now it's email time.
Speaker 1 (02:54):
And so you know, the many people who probably.
Speaker 2 (02:58):
Are emailing in that you know, nine pm, two whatever
window of the day may not always be doing it
to be terrible. So I think, you know, we're trying
to figure out, like, what what is the way we.
Speaker 1 (03:09):
Can you know, indicate to people that were not trying
to be terrible.
Speaker 3 (03:14):
Yeah, And I love that you said that some people
have an out of office or something in their signature
that says, these are the hours that work for me.
Don't feel the need to respond. I do think when
you're the boss, you hold power in your organization. So
if I'm repeatedly emailing and doing the second shift, and
then what happens is really interesting, Right, I will you
work for me, and I will say to you not
to email me back, but you will, and then this
(03:36):
back and forth.
Speaker 4 (03:36):
Right.
Speaker 3 (03:37):
So some approaches could be delay the sending of it, right,
but then I don't want to wake up in the
morning and have thirty emails at nine am that'll arrive.
That's not helpful either. But anythink Laura, what it forces
people to do to say, why does this have to
be an email? Because here's what I have been guilty of.
I want to get it off my plate and onto yours,
so I just want to send it. So if I
(03:57):
actually paused and said, is this an email? Or is
this when I know I'm meeting with Laura on Wednesday,
I'm putting this on my list for the one on
one I'm saving that email, or it's going to be
in our team meeting that we do every month, you know.
So it forces people to really think about you're just
using email to dump your inbox out, which sometimes you've
been guilty of, or you're going to be more strategic
of how are you going to communicate with your team?
Speaker 1 (04:19):
Yeah, well, making good communication is probably you know, thoughtful
communication is definitely a good boss move.
Speaker 2 (04:27):
So what are some other sort of more toxic forms
of communication or bad forms of communication that the bad
bosses are are own for doing? Well?
Speaker 3 (04:35):
It kind of started during the pandemic, didn't it. We
have so many ways to interact with each other from
a technology perspective. So I had a boss who would
you know, send the email? But then it's the slack,
the text, the phone call, the missed FaceTime audio. You're like,
wait a minute, I'm in a meeting, Like why do
like I got the email wait for me to respond, right,
(04:57):
And so it's your point of like what are good
communication styles and vehicles? And you have to think about
like for me, if I go to like tier one,
if something is urgent, my team is going to get
a phone call from me, and that means budget cuts, restructuring,
someone leaving the team. Like it's if you get the
phone call, you know I need you right away, and
(05:19):
then you don't abuse that often, right, because if everything's urgent,
nothing's urgent. And then when you're emailing something and you
don't need a response for two days or whatever, the
deadline is, let the person respond because likely they're not
responding because they're in the bathroom, which they're allowed to do.
They're they're taking a snack break or getting some water,
or they're in a meeting doing work.
Speaker 2 (05:39):
Yeah, so thinking about what is the urgency level of
the communication and matching the appropriate communication to that. So,
I mean, let's talk about the idea of bad bosses
in general, though, I mean our bad boss is born
or made?
Speaker 1 (05:53):
I mean, do people do good bosses become bad bosses?
Is that something they do?
Speaker 3 (05:57):
Yeah, that's what I believe, and that's what I've been studying.
Bad bosses are not born, they're made. I've gone from
being a good leader to a bad boss. In the
Devil Emails at Midnight, I chronicle thirteen leaders, including myself.
And what's interesting, Laura, someone who's a bad boss for
me could be a good boss for you. And so
it's about context and situation. This boss could be a
(06:18):
terrible micromanager for me, like oh my god, Mike Maridgian.
Speaker 4 (06:21):
And then you might be newer to the team, and
so they actually know.
Speaker 3 (06:23):
I need this level of support and hold handholding for
the moment, and so I think that's really important. But
we can swing from being good to bad and bad
to good.
Speaker 2 (06:34):
Okay, Well, let's hope that we're all going in the
right direction. Then I'm going to take a quick ad
break and then I'll be back with more from Meta Malik. Well,
I am back talking with Meta Malik, who is the
author of the brand new book The Devil Emails at Midnight.
(06:57):
So let's talk a little bit more about if somebody
is listening to this and wondering, Hm, am I a
bad boss?
Speaker 4 (07:07):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (07:07):
I mean it doesn't always get you know, written on
the board like she's a bad boss, she's terrible. How
can we suss that out if our team members are
unhappy with our leadership?
Speaker 3 (07:17):
I love that you used daughter language from my daughter,
sus it out right. Here's what I would say is
that there are three moments when bad boss behavior is
going to show up. Typically, one is something's happening in
the external market. They're tariffs, your competition has beat you
to the market with innovation, something has an m and
a acquisition has failed. Right, something's happening, it's causing havoc,
(07:41):
it's causing stress. Second, your boss is behaving badly, and
in my house we say pooh pooh, trickles down. So
now you're taking on this person's energy. And then the
third is something's happened in your personal life. You've lost
a loved one, you've suffered a miscarriage, you break up, divorce, move,
all these things that are really like earthquakes in your life,
(08:03):
and like, how do you handle that? So that's important,
And then I think, you know, for me, I'll give
myself as an example. I know that micromanaging is my
toxic habit. I love a good slut and I love
the good details, and I want to get everything right.
And so if I know those moments, I can catch myself.
But someone might ask, like, how do you do this?
It's like for me, I've had career journals throughout my life,
(08:25):
and I will document things that are happening. And I
think most people Laura know when they're behaving badly. This
book is not for the baddest of the bad bosses
who've made headlines. It's for the rest of us. And
so most of us know that something's off, and then
if we can start to document, and then I think
the next thing is to ask for feedback. And how
I like to do this is not a former boss
(08:48):
who would say, at the end of my performance review,
how do you think I'm doing? Tell me how I'm doing,
and you're like ah, And then I tell him the
truth and he loses it and he's like, that's actually
not true, and I'm like, okay, never giving you feedback again.
But if you put something in writing, like I say,
Laura looking forward to coffee on Friday when we chat,
I wanted to share with you some of the things
I'm working on in terms of my own career development.
(09:09):
One of the things I want to work on is
how do I delegate faster and how do I help
coach the team through some of these mistakes. I'd love
your feedback on that. And actually I wouldn't even use
the word feedback. I would say coaching, right, because feedback
sounds so like oh, black or white, right or wrong right?
And so if I did that, I give you time
(09:29):
to digest it.
Speaker 4 (09:30):
I'm vulnerable.
Speaker 3 (09:31):
I'm telling you the things I'm working on, and then
when we have the conversation, you might actually say, that's
not actually what I think you should be working on.
Speaker 4 (09:38):
I actually think it's this.
Speaker 1 (09:40):
Well, giving feedback to a manager is incredibly challenging.
Speaker 2 (09:44):
Yeah, and I think, well, the first problem is if
your manager is sort of open to good feedback, that
that manager is probably not that.
Speaker 4 (09:50):
Bad exactly exactly.
Speaker 2 (09:52):
Yes, yes, yes, there is a bit of a catch
twenty two here here with this, But I mean, is
there a way to suss out using that phrase again
if someone is a problematic boss before taking a job, like,
or what are some smart things that we should be
doing through the interview process?
Speaker 3 (10:09):
Well, a bad boss likely might also be sign of
toxic culture.
Speaker 1 (10:16):
Right.
Speaker 3 (10:16):
So one example I have that I'll never forget is
I interviewed at a big beauty brand and void did
I want this on my resume? And so I'll never forget.
I did eleven rounds of interviews in a day and
they didn't even offer me a glass of water. And
my mom said, they didn't offer you a glass of water,
you shouldn't take the job. Isn't that interesting? She said,
they didn't, And I said, no, I'm gonna take it,
Like that's such a stupid reason not to take the job.
(10:38):
And let me tell you the signs were there, from
the rushed interview process, from the back to backs to
the everyone I loved except my future boss isn't that
interesting and so was distracted, disengaged, talked over me, didn't
really seem interested in being there, and I sort of
overlooked it because I really wanted the job. I mean
other signs.
Speaker 4 (10:57):
I say.
Speaker 3 (10:58):
It's like I like a good movie trailer. So it's
the sneak peek into what it might be like to
work there. So if the organization is hot and cold,
they want you to meet next week, two days of interviewing,
and then they go cold, and then they re engage
you like two months later, and you see the job
posting sorely on LinkedIn, there's something up. If the recruiter
(11:19):
pressures you on the next day to accept the offer
on the spot, something's up. And then just watch for
the nonverbals. If people seem in interviews not that interested,
or there seem like they're going through the motions, everyone's
showing up late with really no apology or excuse.
Speaker 4 (11:38):
You could really.
Speaker 3 (11:41):
Sense a lot from what is being unsaid in those conversations.
And sometimes the signs are there and I've been guilty.
Speaker 4 (11:47):
I haven't. I just ignored them. I wanted to jump.
Speaker 1 (11:50):
Well, I mean it's are they showing respect to you?
Speaker 2 (11:53):
Yes, it's in it that would potentially be working with
as a colleague. Because people don't suddenly become or respectful.
Speaker 3 (12:01):
You will also, Yeah, and you should be on your
best behavior. Isn't that true when I interview people? Yeah,
I'm going to be myself, but I'm going to try
a little hard to term you just a little bit
extra because I want you to come.
Speaker 4 (12:11):
Because you want to.
Speaker 1 (12:12):
Yeah, if they be bothered to spend time with this candidate.
Speaker 4 (12:16):
But but here's the thing.
Speaker 1 (12:17):
So, if you do have a bad boss, if.
Speaker 2 (12:20):
You're working for somebody who would fit in one of
these categories in your book, is your.
Speaker 1 (12:25):
Only option to quit?
Speaker 2 (12:26):
Or can you maybe you know, either reach your peace
with the situation or make it better or move yourself around.
Speaker 3 (12:32):
Yeah, I mean I think that's a great question. The
book is not about quit every time you have a
bad boss. And in my dedication to my children, and
I said, dedicated the book, and I said, you're going
to have a bad boss one day, and I'm going
to hand you this book because it's about like we
will all have bad bosses. But you know, when I
talk about the thirteen, three of them really impacted my
mental health. And so if it's to the point where
(12:52):
you're finding yourself being chipped away, you're being screamed at,
you know true story the Medusa who threw a Chanel
shoe at my colleague, right, these things, Yeah, that's not
a place you want to be. But there's a few options.
Number One, you can try to manage the boss, depending
on what the you try to retrain them. We go
back to your question on how people communicate an over communicator.
(13:13):
I had a boss who would text me pretty much
every other day at six am, just random thoughts and
things they were thinking, and I wouldn't respond until eight
thirty over email. And I started to retrain them to
go back to email and stop showing up in my
text unless it's important. The second is you can look
for career allies and sponsors within your company and see
(13:33):
if you can make a move within. And then the
third thing is if it's something that you don't think
you can tolerate for much longer, then that's a decision
you have to make. But if it's someone who's a
micromanaging boss and it's slowly h start creating the exit plan,
but also take the time to say, I'm going to
work for Meta for the next six months, and I'm
(13:55):
going to make sure I get the right bullets on
my resume. Let me make the most of this, right,
I make the most of this opportunity and say I'm
not going to leave until I've finished this project or
learned these skills.
Speaker 2 (14:06):
Yeah, well, that can help you feel a lot more
in charge of a situation too, that it's like, Okay,
it's just business.
Speaker 1 (14:12):
We're transactional.
Speaker 2 (14:13):
I'm not under this person's thumb for the rest of
my life. I Am just here for the next six
months and.
Speaker 1 (14:21):
Tell it absolutely figure something out.
Speaker 2 (14:22):
All right, We're gonna take one more quick ad break
and then I'll be back with more from Meata Mallek. Well,
I am back talking with Meta Malik, who is the
author of the new book The Devil.
Speaker 1 (14:38):
Emails at Midnight. Sounding like you've had a lot of
experience in the fashion.
Speaker 2 (14:42):
Industry, so with the real sort of Devilwares product kind
of where this comes from.
Speaker 1 (14:46):
Yes, a classic bad boss in the in the movies.
Speaker 2 (14:51):
So I'm curious you know, what is your I mean,
this is a productivity show.
Speaker 1 (14:55):
What is your schedule looking like?
Speaker 4 (14:56):
These days?
Speaker 3 (14:58):
My schedule is looking like Interestingly enough, I am taking
many more breaks than I used to. I have been
guilty of taking, you know, treating myself like an uber app.
There'll be days where I'd be on Zoom all day
and then at the end it's like the Zoom hangover.
You're plopping on your couch at nine pm at night
and You're like, oh my god, like what just happened?
Speaker 4 (15:18):
Because I've been on video all day or calls on day.
So the thing I'm.
Speaker 3 (15:21):
Doing now is I'm actually trying to take walks really quickly,
even if it's like ten to fifteen minutes, and go
outside because to energize myself. I also like to do
a good dance off with my kids, you know, put
some music on anything to just honestly, the productivity hack
for me is to step away from the keyboard so
I can be more productive, because otherwise I find myself
(15:42):
you'll get sucked into things if you're not blocking out
time to actually go refresh and recharg I mean, god,
even our phones need to be recharged, right, So that's
the biggest hack I have right now.
Speaker 2 (15:53):
Yeah, do you have any sort of morning routine or
are You're not a morning routine person.
Speaker 3 (15:57):
I am a morning routine person. I mean I get
up before the calm, the calm before the storm in
my house. So the night before I'm doing everything to
get the kids ready for school or right now it's
summer camp. God help us, right, So we're doing that,
but everything as much as I can to be prepared
so that in the morning I can be up alone
reading or writing and having a cup of tea for
(16:18):
about fifteen to twenty minutes, depending on when everyone wakes up,
and then it's probably like ninety minutes of everything to
get everyone out of the house and then I'm starting
my work day or going to the gym and then
starting work.
Speaker 2 (16:31):
Yeah, so what sort of time are we talking is
this is this quiet moment happening? Like how early do
you have to be up to get your calm?
Speaker 3 (16:39):
It could be as early as I have usually five
thirty six am. But I'm not somebody who's up at midnight.
You know, I'm going to say, I am going to
say that I'm not a say I'm not ashamed to
say I'm sleeping at midnight. And there is this like
anti hustle culture movement where it's like, you should.
Speaker 4 (16:56):
Be my god, you're sleeping at midnight. Right.
Speaker 3 (16:59):
I had a boss be like, you didn't respond to
my note.
Speaker 4 (17:01):
We needed approval. I'm like, it was eleven o'clock at night.
Speaker 3 (17:04):
I'll never forget. This is very pandemic, and he was
annoyed with me. And I woke up in the morning
to all these texts.
Speaker 4 (17:09):
I was like, I was.
Speaker 3 (17:09):
Asleep, right, and so, yeah, but you can be guilty
on the other end. So if I'm up early, I'm
not sending emails. I'm trying not to send emails super
early eiler. Right, it can be either end.
Speaker 2 (17:19):
Yeah, keep it relatively within the context of the work day.
So any sort of other routines that make you more
productive as you're juggling your various projects. I'm curious what
your sort of planning process looks like with all that.
Speaker 3 (17:33):
Yeah, I have Actually people ask me what are you
using in terms of technology. I love an old school
notebook and a journal and why I keep it next
to me in meetings And it's not what you would think.
It's not for a note taking, but it's for idea generation,
because you can have pretty much in every meeting now
like somebody you know, somebody in quotes taking notes right
(17:55):
and transcribing them for you. But to have idea generation,
like if I'm sitting here with you in our conversation
and something comes up, I could quickly just jot it
down right, And so that way, that's much more productive
for me because I can go back and look at
all those ideas and it's not a paragraph, but it
might be something that you said like two words, and
I write it down. So then when I go back later,
(18:16):
I'm inspired to write a social media post, write an article,
it might be the book idea And so that's really
important to me.
Speaker 2 (18:23):
And I also it's saying you find it good to
have it as a paper notebook.
Speaker 3 (18:27):
I do. I do, but because for me, when I
write something down, I digest it and I remember it.
That doesn't mean that I'm like handwriting my books, but
I do think there are some moments where I think
if I can write it down, it will stick with
me much more.
Speaker 4 (18:42):
And then I'm doing what many other.
Speaker 3 (18:43):
People are doing, which is you have to block sort
of if you make your calendar access to access to everyone,
then don't be upset if you're booked, you know, seven
to seven, and so you know, blocking time to do
email or writing or you know, thinking and actual work
is important.
Speaker 1 (19:01):
Yeah, well that's interesting.
Speaker 2 (19:02):
Yeah, I mean, tasks take time, and so if you
aren't willing to allocate times to them, then they.
Speaker 1 (19:08):
Exactly aren't going to happen.
Speaker 2 (19:10):
So right, that's what has us maybe emailing at midnight sometimes.
Speaker 4 (19:14):
Absolutely, I haven't built in.
Speaker 2 (19:15):
Time during the day, which is that what I mean
should a god boss do that? I mean, should they
be blocking out time for those those emails and that
administration stuff like that? I mean very you know, how
would you see as like a good boss scheduled during
they should?
Speaker 3 (19:29):
I mean, but with the you think about in the
race to embrace AI, a lot of this work should
be automated. And you hope that AI doesn't create a
generation of lazy bosses, right because if a lot of
this work is being automated, then you actually have time.
The biggest complaint we started is not enough time for
my team. And I think about my calendar like I
think about my closet. There's a bunch of stuff I
don't wear. There's a bunch of stuff I don't need,
(19:50):
bunch of stuff that's outgrown, et cetera, et cetera. You know,
the worst feeling, Laura is like you're in a meeting
and you all show up and you're like, what's this
meeting about? Nobody knows. You hang around for ten fifteen minutes,
and then someone maybe has the courage to call it,
or it goes on for a while and then the
person's like, oh, Laura was supposed to be here, she's
the decision maker, she's out on vacation.
Speaker 4 (20:08):
Oops. What.
Speaker 3 (20:10):
Or it's a meeting that's just been going on for
months that you don't need anymore. And so I think
finding people having the courage to say, we're not doing
this meeting because of the following reasons. It's being discussed elsewhere.
It could be a slack approval's already done, the project's finished,
get the meeting off the calendar, and then you actually
have more time to be emailing. You have more time
to be meeting with people and teaching them and coaching them.
(20:32):
And many bosses and some organizations you've got assistants who
can also help you track your time as well.
Speaker 2 (20:40):
Yeah, yeah, well time is valuable and treating it as
such is very important. So ATA I always ask my guests,
what is something you have done recently to take a
day from great to awesome?
Speaker 3 (20:52):
Take a day from great to awesome? What an amazing question?
Just duck out early, can things and go with my
kids to get ice cream, to go to the movies,
to do something spontaneous that sparks a moment of joy
that they like to do, and I'm happy to join
them in.
Speaker 4 (21:11):
Those are the things.
Speaker 3 (21:12):
And I'm not canceling on people last minute, but just like, oh,
this can be moved, Like why is this.
Speaker 4 (21:16):
Is actually urgent? It's not urgent, but it's important.
Speaker 3 (21:21):
I'm going to push it out a few days and
so yeah, that's like when I feel like I get
to spend time with the people I love, it goes
to being like just a great day.
Speaker 1 (21:28):
Yeah, awesome, that is awesome. And what are you looking
forward to right now?
Speaker 3 (21:34):
I'm looking forward to my kids going back to school
and leaving summer camp patchwork, which for any any parents
working outside the home, it's tough, right it is.
Speaker 4 (21:44):
It's tough with them.
Speaker 2 (21:45):
Yeah, I mean the hours are different, the you know,
some have some have before care and aftercare which is great.
Not I'll do, but then you know there's often not
the bus, right, like you know you had the bus.
Speaker 4 (21:57):
Yeah, all those things everything.
Speaker 3 (21:58):
I'm so excited for my book to come out because
I really feel like it's going to really help people
and change the way they think about work and how
they lead and how they interact with each other. So
that is something I'm really looking forward to to a
thing out and hearing people read it and tell me
what they think about it.
Speaker 1 (22:14):
Absolutely well, meet it. Where can people find you?
Speaker 3 (22:18):
You can find me on LinkedIn. I love to meet
new people, so please DM me and you can find
me on.
Speaker 4 (22:23):
Medamalk dot com.
Speaker 3 (22:24):
And the book The Double Emails at Midnight, available on Amazon,
Barnes and Noble, your local independent bookstore anywhere you buy books.
Speaker 2 (22:31):
Absolutely all right, Well, Anita, thank you so much for
joining us. Thank you to everyone for listening. If you
have feedback about this or any other episode, you can
always reach me at Laura at Laura vandercam dot com.
I may email you back at midnight, but you don't
have to respond to me then. So in the meantime,
this is Laura.
Speaker 1 (22:49):
Thanks for listening, and here's to making the most of
our time. Thanks for listening to Before Breakfast. If you've
got questions, ideas, or feedback, you can reach me at
Laura at Laura vandercam dot com. Before Breakfast is a
(23:15):
production of iHeartMedia.
Speaker 2 (23:17):
For more podcasts from iHeartMedia, please visit the iHeartRadio app,
Apple
Speaker 1 (23:22):
Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Before Breakfast News
Host
Laura Vanderkam
Show Links
AboutPopular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Cardiac Cowboys
The heart was always off-limits to surgeons. Cutting into it spelled instant death for the patient. That is, until a ragtag group of doctors scattered across the Midwest and Texas decided to throw out the rule book. Working in makeshift laboratories and home garages, using medical devices made from scavenged machine parts and beer tubes, these men and women invented the field of open heart surgery. Odds are, someone you know is alive because of them. So why has history left them behind? Presented by Chris Pine, CARDIAC COWBOYS tells the gripping true story behind the birth of heart surgery, and the young, Greatest Generation doctors who made it happen. For years, they competed and feuded, racing to be the first, the best, and the most prolific. Some appeared on the cover of Time Magazine, operated on kings and advised presidents. Others ended up disgraced, penniless, and convicted of felonies. Together, they ignited a revolution in medicine, and changed the world.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.