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January 6, 2024 146 mins

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Episode Transcript

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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Alzone Media. Hey everybody, Robert Evans here and I wanted
to let you know this is a compilation episode. So
every episode of the week that just happened is here
in one convenient and with somewhat less ads package for
you to listen to in a long stretch if you want.
If you've been listening to the episodes every day this week,
there's going to be nothing new here for you, but

(00:23):
you can make your own decisions, all right. It is
the official it could happen here predictions episode, And to
start off here at Gear has some of our wins
and some of our losses from last year's That's right.
I took a peek back at our predictions of the
past to see how correct we are. We got all
of them right, Great job, folks, Let's continue on. No,

(00:45):
I will say, obviously the big dub for the year
goes to Sophie, who said that Kissinger would die. Yeah,
you got that one, said that. Good. Thank you for
reminding me that I'm a genius. Wow. We all said
to know, there's no chance he's too psychically powerful, but
you maintained, and it turns out all we needed was

(01:07):
a little hope. That's all we needed. Wow, I really
should use these powers. I mean, I don't know you're
going to take out next Yeah, we'll get there. Who
your prediction might death prediction for us? Just for funzies,
We once had a side note we once had back
in the beginning times when we actually went to an office.

(01:28):
God at at at I heard we once had a
prediction of when George H. H W. Bush was going
to die and I was also right. So oh, okay, well, Sophie,
now you have to be very careful, which one guess,
very careful. Yeah, I've been watching hard. I've been watching
the show You, which is primarily about how being a
serial killer is a great idea, and I feel I

(01:52):
feel whyting like White Woman was that so that I
can protect myself in case Sophie is secretly murdering people,
which would just two in a row, two in a row.
That's all I'm gonna say. If I was, it would
be in your honor. So so let's talk about two

(02:13):
things Robert got wrong Robert. Robert said that there was
a decent chance, which I think there was, but it
just didn't happen that Nick Fuentes and Kanye West would
die together in under some mysterious circus. I still feel
like that favor, so I think we I still think
we got a shot. I honestly I think so too.

(02:36):
But it didn't happen last year. The other thing Robert
predicted is that there would be a SKA total supremacy
that obviously didn't happen. That that happened. I'm sorry that happened.
Did you miss me informing Cody Johnston about the Mighty
Mighty Bosstones George Floyd album this year? Because I did,
and it was you, unfortunately did And if you have
a one of the worst things to say happened to

(03:00):
human Gun, Yes, please continue. It's Mia predicted that there
would be kind of a new sort of like DeSantis
style Republican challenger approaching. I think Ramswami perfectly fits the
sort of thing that Mea was talking about, and this
is the kind of new figure that enters politics. But
he also kind of gives Andrew Yang in a way

(03:21):
as well. Sure sure, sure, yeah, yeah, he's he's the
fascist Andrew Yang. He's fascist Andrew Yang, and he's insufferable.
He's in fucking insufferable. Yeah yeah, massive, so fucking insufferable.
Mia also predicted that Mike Pence would try to run
for president. The rest of us disagreed and was Nea

(03:41):
was proving, Yeah, that was easy for fifty percent on that.
I don't know how much we'd say he really ran
for president. He jogged at most, and then he realized
the only person that would vote for him was mother.
And then he was like, I don't think she would. Yeah,

(04:03):
I think she'll say she will, but she's gonna she's
gonna pull the lever for Trump at the end of
the day. Yeah they are. Let's talk about some deaths.
Mia said that Nom Chansky would die. Sharen said Joe
Biden would die. I think although they didn't physically die,
the last vestige of their like respectability basically count right.

(04:26):
Basically they torpedoed all the the last bit of like
uh respect they had for for for people who would
typically be aligned with them. Roughly, Biden has just been
he's looked like he's on death death's door for forever.
I similarly thought that Stephen Crowder was gonna die and
instead he just he just kind of metaphorically died because

(04:49):
he made up a series of horrible business decisions and
now is ostracized from much of the online right, So
that's cool. Now. The one that Sophie's upset about is
that she she wanted Crypto dot Com to lose the
name of the arena instead instead the Miami Instead, the
Miami Heat Arena is no longer called the FTX Arena.

(05:11):
I'm happy about that as well. Crypto dot Com is
still holding strong. So so there we go, and I
take that very personally and it is Staple Center, Thank
you so much. Now, I will say that's I feel
like I'm going to roll that prediction in the next year.
Let's run death prediction as well. James James said that

(05:37):
there'd be more immigration bullshit, which obviously happened, as James
has been covering that most of this last year. Also,
James said that Twitter would die, which is true because
it's no longer Twitter. It's no longer Twitter. Correct, It's
just like it's just like how Henry Kissinger changed his name.
So true. Yeah, No, I will say the most impressive
kind of niche prediction, this is the last one, came

(05:59):
from Sharen oh Sharene said that there would be the
return of the flip phone, and searches for flip phones
were up fifteen thousand percent last year among jung z
and millennials, and foldable phones sold forty four percent more
compared to twenty twenty two. So three really was the

(06:20):
return of the flip phone. So there we go. I
think it's going to continue because of what's happening, it
will go and all the tension that's going on over there.
I think we're going to continue seeing a switch away
from iPhones. So that's that's proof of why we are
all completely trustworthy and never wal wrongs. And what were
you wrong about? Garrison? Oh yeah, you really skipped over

(06:40):
your bit, Garrison. Oh, I thought that Harry Styles would
would there'd be some damning information that come out and
he would just plummet. Unfortunately that didn't happen. The Styles
is still is still hanging in there, so Styling here's
to hopin. Hey, So Sophie's favorite musician, not my favorite musician,

(07:02):
but it puts on a good show. All right, all right.
Predictions for this next year, Oh wait, I I need
to take one. I need to take one other l
which is that I significantly overestimated my countrymen, and I
thought that we'd see another wave of revolts from people
dying from COVID in China and we didn't. I don't
know why country would suck ass like everyone else. Yeah,

(07:24):
that's because that's because COVID is not real. All right, Well,
let's uh, let's let's blaze past that one and when
we get back, when we get back from this uh
this break, we're gonna we're gonna start going through some
predictions and we are back. Yeah, So that's why I

(07:54):
just don't really think the vaccines were it. So twenty
twenty four is in a election year, obviously, so there
will be some election related predictions. Let's do I don't
want to immediately just go to like who's gonna win.
Let's do some V picks. Yeah, let's let's do some
VP picks because this is this is gonna be a
Joe Biden versus Trump race, right like, unless one of

(08:15):
them drops dead before November ideally murder suicide. That's that's
my hope for them for once. I don't disagree with Robert,
But do we think that Kamala Harris is gonna it's
gonna it's gonna stick in? Uh, the the Democrat VP

(08:36):
spots got so it's hard to imagine she wouldn't. She's
a dog ship candidate, Like, yeah, their best The best
person I think they could run is Witmer. Like if
i'm if I'm like war gaming the Democratic Party trying
to give him the best shot. It's throwing Witmer in.
But Joe Biden at least make a Really Joe, it's

(08:57):
gonna he's gonna stick. He's gonna stick with Kamala for sure. Yes, yeah,
which is unfortunate because there's bet definitely better that. It's like, definitely,
I wouldn't say better. There's definitely like more strategic people
that But I mean, if we were going by strategy,
we wouldn't the Democrat. I mean, yeah, it wouldn't. It
wouldn't be Biden Trump again, if we were going by

(09:19):
what's best for the country. Sure. As for Trump, last year,
I said that I think herschel Walker could be a
potential of VP ban, which I think is still true,
but there's not as not as much as it used
to be. Trump Trump would become the third organization to
become completely screwed by picking herschel Walker, like three executive

(09:42):
organizations have bet everything on herschel Walker had lost. That's
the biggest thing is that is that Trump doesn't like
losers and herschel Walker is kind of only ever lost. Now,
obviously we've talked about this before. The Ramaswami's is maybe
a potential, but he could be too loud for Trump.
He could kind of steal the spotlight. He's not the attention. Okay,

(10:07):
does each person want to yea, does each person want
to go around? Let's go around the horn? So, so, Garrison,
who is your pick? I mean, I was mostly tossing
between Favec and herschel Walker, but I it's I'm not
confident in either of those. But there's there's no other
names that really come to mind, because most of the

(10:28):
other people on the debate stage either were too hostile
to Trump or just didn't seem like people Trump would
really get behind. M Yeah, I think Bobby Kennedy, I
think you could actually do it. I think Okay, Admittedly, admittedly,
my biggest reason for thinking this is not actual political

(10:49):
analysis is that we live in the dumbest of all
possible world. Dumbest world is Bobby Kennedy. That is that
that is true, This is this is the dumbest timeline. Yeah,
maybe Nicky Haley if he can overcome just like, yeah,
but with Haley, Hailey's been kind of not like attacking

(11:11):
Trump fully, but she has not been super pro Trump
on this stage. I think she may have alienated him
too much. I was also thinking, like, you know, who's like,
uh a more like docile woman that Trump would want
to run beside. But yeah, but Nick Haley has has
the reach that I think she'd smart him. And like

(11:33):
everyone is against every candidate until they're picked for fucking VP. Yeah,
I think I think that there's there's several different people
that he could pick. He could pick uh, Carrie Lake,
he could pick Sarah Huckabee Sanders, he could pick oh man,
what is that governor's name, Christine Yes, I think thank you,

(11:55):
thank you. He could pick Christine. No. But like there's
if he's gonna go woman, he's gonna go I think
one of those three because I think he's already bad mouth.
He's already bad mouthed Nikki Hayley enough. But I think
I think what's what people are forgetting is he might
just pick somebody that he knows won't turn on him.

(12:17):
He might just pick his fucking daughter. Like I was
gonna say, I was gonna say actually his I mean
he might, he might. He might pick Jared Kushner, the
cush bomb. Yeah, let's get that. That's the fucking election
I want. Robert, Do you have a pick? I mean,
I suspect he's that that Biden and fucking Harris are

(12:42):
going to run. Although you know, again, if I'm talking
about who I think actually would be the smart pick
for the dims, it's Whitmer and or Andy Basheer, who's
the Democratic governor of uh Kentucky. Super popular, like really
good at talking to kind of working class voters, has

(13:05):
been successful in a red state. We're in this weird
situation where almost anyone kind of assides Kamala Harris who
were to run against Trump would win easily. And if
Trump were to be replaced by like Nicky Hayley, she
would just absolutely pants Biden. This is what all of
the data shows at the moment. So we're in this

(13:27):
really odd moment of like we have. It's like it's
the opposite of the unstoppable force meeting the immovable object.
It's like the very mobile object meeting the very light force.
They're both just sort of sliding around the room, coughing
baby versus coughing baby. Yeah. Yeah, it's two babies with

(13:48):
tuberculosis in a steel cage while Joe Rogan narrates the fight,
which I would watch a country. So I don't know.
I don't know who the fuck Trump is going to pick.
Uh yeah, probably probably his daughter Jacob. He might you know,
I wouldn't be I wouldn't be wildly shocked if he

(14:09):
were to go with christ what's her name? She ran
as a Democrat last time. But I did think about
that too. She's sucking mental now, she's she's been out
of her mind. I think shocked. I think that she's
a regular Fox News contributor. Yeah, I think he doesn't

(14:30):
want someone who is like he hates Fox News now
Theolarity until they avaked him. He needs unpopular enough that
I think Trump might see him as a loser. Tolci's
not a loser. She's also not a threat to him
being in the spotlight, and he he might decide to
roll those bones. Yeah, I did think about that. All right,

(14:55):
do we do we want to switch over to another category? Gear? Sure?
Does anybody have a general prediction that they would like
to share? Sure? I think a daily wire host is
gonna have something funny happen to them, any anything related

(15:16):
to based on how much like there's gonna be probably
a whole bunch of rallies happening in twenty twenty four
in a leading to the election, I think there's can
be a lot more on the ground stuff that than
there was in twenty twenty three. I think animosity has
only really risen these past three years, and I think
that we could see the return of pieing as a

(15:38):
as a as a widespread tactic God God from your
mouth to God's er scar. So you can you can
put that one together, all right, I'll go my prediction
as a two part and it falls under the Kim
ye Oh my first My first prediction is that Kanye

(16:03):
people are going to forget. People are going to forget
he's going to put out a new album. Uh, and
people because he's already started to like do the thing
that Kanye does where he plays plays an album at
a random club and or plays a listening party event.
And yeah, people are going to forget He's gonna He's

(16:24):
gonna do that. And then Kim has been hanging out
with Ivanka a lot, and she is almost in law school,
and I think she is going to have some kind
of a feeler into the field of politics this year.
Oh my god, what if she's VP. I actually that
thought actually did go through my brain. But I don't think.
I don't think she's there yet. But we are not ready.

(16:48):
We are not ready for a Trump Kardashian ticket. I'm sorry,
I am moving. I am moving back to Canada. That's
simply not happening. The reality TV ticket would be, you know,
just so America of us. This is then Trump would
have technologed the Armenian genocide, would make relations with Turkey

(17:09):
very difficult. That was she would and vice presidency would
be very good for our media. It would for the goods,
it would be amazing. But like, but like, since since
Trump's been out of office, Ivanka kind of went underground,
and you know, most people have not been seen with her.
And in the last couple of months, she has been

(17:32):
photographed with Kim. Kim has posted her. They've been doing
things together, they've been coordinating outfits. It's yeah, and so
I think we might see some kind of thing between
the two of them there or Kim is going to
start making her way into a political career of some kind. Yeah,

(17:53):
although I do think that not you know, some of
the work that she's done helping getting innocent folks out
out of prison has been pretty dupe. I will say
now that is my prediction the kimyer I hate this country.
I think we probably will go back. We just did
this episode spoiler. We're recording in twenty thirty three. I

(18:16):
predict that by this time next year we will probably
go back to something approaching title forty two, which will
be terrible given that, like as Robert said, kind of
we're seeing increased conflicts all over the world. People are
coming here, they won't be able to that will have
massively destabilizing an influence on Mexico as it did last time,

(18:37):
an impact on Mexico. I'm also really what my concern
prediction this year is violence against migrants in places where
they're extremely vulnerable as we go through the election cycle,
which will never to be demonize them from both fucking parties.
So that's become a really big especially with this stupid

(18:58):
practice of bussing people across the country and then dumping
them onto the streets like that. That's my big concern
for twenty four Yeah, uh, you know what, fuck it?
I can be wrong, all right, So my this is
my this is my my, a thing that I've been

(19:19):
waiting for to happen. That's gonna be one of the
just most one of the worst things that's gonna happen. Eventually,
at some point this is gonna happen. We're going to
get an attempt by the Republicans to seriously come after
interracial marriage, and it is going to form the most
insane political coalitions you have ever heard of in your
entire life. It is going to be like this nightmare

(19:40):
word coalition of just like the open white supremacists, the
like Asian MRA people, a bunch of like you're gonna
see a bunch of these completely deranged, like career like
nom like nominally left wing Korean at no nationalist groups.
I you're gonna see like the like Andrew Tate people.
There's gonna be this. It's gonna to have this this

(20:01):
just absolute nightmare coalition behind it. It probably won't work,
but it is going to be one of the worst things.
And I don't know if I I hope it doesn't
happen next year, but I think I think the election
year someone could actually decide that this is going to
be the time they're going to try and do it. That.
That is the sort of shit that I when I

(20:23):
think about, like what could upset the election in Joe
Biden's favor, it would be the Republicans launching a crusade
like that and like too hard, too fast, yeah, and
on something that like everyone up until the moment it happens,
would assume was just not up for debate, right, Like,
I don't know it might happen if they let go
after gay marriage, but everyone's kind of braced for that.

(20:45):
If they were if they were to launch a crusade
against interracial marriage, Yeah, that is the kind of thing
that might might just sink them. Everyone might just go, well,
I guess we have to u for Biden again because
this is just out of its mind. I mean, one
thing that Republicans have been talking more about, and I
think it's maybe possible that there'll be one or two
states that that actually moves on this is abolishing no

(21:10):
fault divorce. I think that is something that could happen
in like one or two red states this year. I
don't know how much that would actually impact national elections,
but that is something I think the Republicans are starting
to focus more on specifically like Republican media influencers, largely
because they all have had their wives leave them. Chariny Well, yeah,

(21:41):
I do think that flip phones are going to continue
being popular, especially dumbling down. No. I mean, I'm first
of all, I was right. Second of all, I have
a couple ones I hope aren't true, but I think
they will be. Uh. I have a feeling that and
I think there's gonna be something similar to the Muslim

(22:02):
band but in specific like about Palaesi in Israel. I
think that there's going to be something scary that targets
and entire people that I don't want to be true,
but it just feels like we're we're going up that route.
So I feel like there's gonna I have. I have
a thing about what that's going to be. I think
I think what's going to be. And this is something
we've been seeing in Florida. There's going to be a

(22:24):
giant push to ban Chinese citizens and mooting property because
this is this is already happening in Florida. There's there's
been this whole and like like like Florida's right now
in the process of doing this thing where they're trying
to prevent people who spent like one year in uh
in China from like being a universities. I think it's
going to be this giant like they're they're they're going
to do one of these like Chinese people can own

(22:46):
property things. Yeah, I didn't know that. That's really unsettling.
They're closer than you would sink to already doing a
version of a Muslim band not targeting Palestine. But well
and Trump has promised in countries that's what I mean,
that's it happened before, Like why wouldn't it happen again.
It just feels really unsettling that it's that's the possibility
of it happening again. Well, and Trump has promised that

(23:07):
if he wins again, where he's moving straight to deportation
of Muslims, Like, I think we will like that that
he's he said that that's what we're gonna do. I
also think that there's going to be an uproar about
a historical figure who is white being played by a
black person. Another another one of those. Yeah, I mean

(23:29):
that's like every week already, it's already starting. Charine, you
are correct, because next year what Denzel is going to
be planning playing Hannibal Barka in a movie about the
Second Punic War, which any person who is not out
of their mind is like, that's inspired. He's the possible

(23:50):
person playing that guy. But it's going to piss off
a bunch of people, even though even James. But we're
the one who listened to that James Bond podcast, right,
kill James Bond the name of the podcast. Yeah, okay,
I just gotta say this, tea girl, James Bond. It
would set the world on fire. It would be the
funniest thing that's ever happened. Yes, do it? God? Yeah,

(24:14):
yeah that way. Yeah, the Civil Wolf will begin because
of trans James Bond. So true, so true. I see.
I take a different tact, which is that we should
find the most Cajun man alive and finally give the
people what they want, which is Cajun James Bond. I
mean that would also go hard, like James Bond making

(24:36):
a like instead of instead of a Martini shaken not stir,
and he likes a nice ETU fe like, come on,
let's do it, let's let's be heroes. I I know
we wanted to close with the with the with the
death segment. I think because of Kissinger, we already took
so many dubs there that I one thing that is
on my mind is surely it's possible there'll be more

(24:57):
kind of protests pop the mobilizations like this summer before
the election. But I'm more interested in what's gonna happen
after the election, because no matter who wins, which either
I already don't have a strong feeling one way or another,
there's potentials for Obviously, if Trump wins, I think they'll
be massive another January sixth type event, if pussy hats

(25:19):
are gonna come back. If Trump wins, there will be
win that's my prediction. They'll be like probably at least
two strong weeks of intense rioting across the country. Yeah,
I think we'll see more firm suppression than we did
in twenty twenty in a lot of cases, which will
be interesting because at this point Biden will still be
technically in charge, but everyone's going to treat it like

(25:41):
it's a Trump problem. On the other hand, if Biden wins,
are we going to get stopped to steal too? Or
will a second or will or will a second defeat
in a row almost be more of like a death
kneel for this sort of like mega mobilization. I get that.
I think that that's also a possibility that too low
is in a row could just just like disillusion a

(26:03):
whole bunch of people who otherwise kind of want to
do a stop still too. But it may just it
may just not happen. We literally can we can't. We can't.
Let pick more, judge, I'll tell you what will happen.
Uh is because I I I am aware of the
predictive programming that the Obamas have been putting out movie
leave the world behind. We're gonna we're gonna have a

(26:25):
military coup and they're going to use the Havana syndrome
gun to make while they while they re you know,
fix fix politics one way or the other. Don't know
which side is going to do it, but somebody is
going to drop the Havana syndrome gun. Yeah. Let's let's
take a quick break and come back with our death predictions.
How does that sound? Everybody? And we're back. Robert, Who's

(26:58):
gonna die? Who's gonna die? Robert Roberts. Uh, you know
what my pick this year is? Everybody, I think this
is the year we all get it. I think, uh,
somebody's gonna push push the button and finally, finally, the
world's atomic stockpile will bring us all sweet release. Okay,
my my serious prediction. I think Putin will be assassinated.
That'd be cool, dude, I was going to say, I

(27:19):
have a feeling that there's going to be some type
of assassination that will like rock the world. Yeah, decent
chance of sod eats it. Still, I think, God, you know,
the only reason I wouldn't say that, that's like the
guy I most want to see die in the world
and probably won't be until he does. But like aired

(27:40):
one's up there. But asad just nobody, nobody else has
that body count right now, no one can touch him.
That's the thing. That's the thing. Babe's going for it.
But still he's got to kill. I mean, like like that,
I I just don't know he's he's a survivor. Unfortunately,

(28:02):
like you have to, you do kind of have to
acknowledge that about him, Like homologous Vigor, he's pretty good
at not getting killed so far. I just don't know
whereas like Putin hasn't really been tested this way yet
and I I do kind of think, yeah, I think
that there's there's a chance. I don't know that. I

(28:23):
think it's a high chance. Sure, yeah, I mean I
think every day we get close and closer to an
Elon Musk overdose. Well and all and our lives so
so true. Ja. Yeah, my prediction is that with the
will of God, Morrissey will finally fucking die and rid

(28:44):
us if he's annoying bullshit, Oh my god, because wow,
not that that is not what I was expecting, sir. Yeah,
in Chilla, we will see the end of Morrissey this year. Friends,
has everybody? Has everybody gone? Because is it? Marturn? With
my with my power? Yeah? Yeah, yeah, I really, I'm

(29:07):
not saying more Sea. I really thought about this, and
it's time. It's time, David, Misscavage, It's fucking time. Okay
he said it first. Maybe from the person who predicted Kissinger. Yeah,
and someone else. She picked someone else, right, who else

(29:27):
did you get, Sophy? I don't know who else did
I get? I I don't have anything you said something
about when you were in the office. Oh, George H. W. Bush,
Oh yeah, yes, yes, yeah, yeah, we could be two
for two here. But but I think I think it's
it's gonna be a misscavage. But you know that. But

(29:47):
you know he'll just jump into another body. But you
know what, I wish. This is a wish that I
don't think will come true. But uh, McConnell, I think
I mean that it seems very likely he has a
short circuit in front of a camera. Yeah we have
he will die live on TV. When we have seen

(30:09):
the android flip on and off multiple times, I think
it's very clear that one day he just won't boot
back up. What she could die too. I think I
think McConnell's gonna die the way he lived with Fintanel
that got snuck into his heroin. You know, that's that's
just I think. And on that note, Turtle bye bye,

(30:33):
are we free? We're free? Bye? Welcome to It could
happen here. It is twenty twenty four. A lie, it's
twenty twenty three. Robert has just pissed everybody off for

(30:54):
the last three minutes and fourteen seconds. That listener Sophie
is gaslighting you. It is until December when they listen
to this, it'll be twenty twenty four. You don't know that.
I do know that I'm in charge. Okay, moving on,
We're going to do some listener questions today, but I
just wanted to, you know, give a shout out to
each member of our team. We have Shrien lani Enis,

(31:16):
we have James Stout, we have Mio Wong, we have
Garrison Davis, and we have Big Bobby E. That's right,
that's right, And we're going to answer some listener questions.
Thank you for those, to those who have submitted, anybody
else want to say anything before I start? Besides Robert,
thank you about half of those. Yeah, you need to

(31:38):
have a chat with yourselves. You know who you are.
I don't think they do. I don't think our listeners
are very self actualized. All right, Sophie take it away
to each of you. Any book recommendations for introduction to
anarchist history and or theory if I may. There's a

(32:00):
book called Great Anarchists by Dog Section Press. It's written
by Ruth Kinner, who's been on the podcast. It's got
very short bios of different great anarchists. I think you
will enjoy it. I think you can get the PDF
for free online. I like to print them out and
put them in as little libraries that rich people like
to have in their neighborhoods and red pill them, black

(32:20):
pilled them slowly that way. So yeah, great. Anarchists by
dog Section Press. From Dog Section Press by Ruth McKinnon.
My one is kind of it's slightly more specialized, but
Anarchism in Latin America is a great book. Also, the
cover is just gorgeous, so you'll have that around all
the time. But yeah, it's really good. It's great. Basically

(32:42):
it goes country by countries through Latin America and talk
about athor anarchist movements and it's great. Yeah, it's not
it's sort of anarchists, I suppose. But I've been doing
a lot of union stuff recently, so I've been thinking
a lot about the concept of work, so I have
kind of returned to this really good book I think
put out titled work, very very basic look into sort

(33:06):
of like anarchist almost like anti work theory. It's just
a nice book to interrogate how the concept of like
work in labor exists in your own head. I've appreciated
that one through the years. Sharin or Robert, either of you.
I second all those answers amazing answers everybody, Well, and

(33:26):
I cannot read, so I'm gonna second those answers. Robert
recommends the book, isn't it like the No God's No
Master's Akpress one with the Chaos Stars. Yeah, that's got
a lot of like old anarchist essays and shit, starting
in like the eighteen hundreds, So if you're interested in
that kind of history, you can read that, all right.

(33:48):
The next question, I think this will be different depending
on the type of episode and like what show people
are writing it for. But I got several different people asking,
you know, how long it takes to research rate like
an average episode, So we're talking like not talking like
a series such as Garrison's Stop Coop City series, but

(34:09):
like an average episode where you're talking about something and
it's a scripted episode, but you're talking about something. Sure, Yeah,
I mean some episodes take months, if but an average
episode usually if I'm putting it together, it might take
me like four days from start to completion. Like I'm

(34:30):
thinking of my of my DeSantis fast Wave episodes. Usually
you'll have like maybe two days of more research and
then two days of like well, then like one day
of like scripting, and then editing that script on like
the fourth day and then you record. So yeah, maybe
maybe around that. I mean some episodes come together faster,
some episodes come together longer. It really really varies. Shoot shoo, Yeah,

(34:55):
I would agree with that timeline. I think three to
four days sounds about right. I've been trying to take
an extra day just to read through the script, like
multiple times, just because I've been it's just better for
like my performance. It's like, where does that sounds? So? Yeah,
I would say, like when you write a script, the

(35:15):
worst thing you can do is immediately read it after
you've finished writing it. And I've made that mistake before.
I would definitely have so taking time is important. Yeah,
James mea Robert, anything you want to add. I spent
thirty five years preparing for the sheet Pocas. Yeah, it
really depends on the episode. If it's an interviewer, I'll

(35:39):
spend maybe a couple of hours, you know, studying up
on everything the person has said. If it's a scripted episode,
a scripted half hour to forty five minutes of the
show is generally five to seven pages. That's maybe an
hour or two to write, and then four to six
hours of research, which although it kind of depends, you know,

(36:03):
because a lot of it's based on just sort of
like ongoing research, right where whereas like something will happen
in the news and we'll do some studying up on
that event, but we're also keeping in touch with like
like when we have episodes on terrorist attacks and whatnot.
Like I don't know how to actually like lay out
how much time goes into those episodes, because it's a

(36:25):
large part of it is just the process of like
keeping up with the way terror is evolving in America.
We will have beats, right, Like we will have that
we just keep up with. Yeah, Like we're not counting
all the time that we spend like in telegram just
like watching right but the gram but yeah, yeah, sure
sing second time this year Garrison's found themselves too old

(36:48):
to understand a youth reference. My next question, what conspiracy
theory or unsolved mystery do each of you believe in?
The dangerous question and first answer on air, Yeah, yeah,
I just want to point out that Garrison sent me
this question to ask, so it must be an answer

(37:09):
in mind. Yeah, are a Garrison danger Davis? Okay, Well,
I I don't know what what even I'm not sure
if I believe in anything that would be classified as
a conspiracy theory, I would have to I would have
to think on this. Actually, I don't know. I don't

(37:32):
believe in it. I fucking love Bohemian Grove stuff. It's
like one of the ogs you know, from like the
beginnings of the Internet, and it just can't get enough
about people who have just never deviated from the Bohemian growth.
That dude who went there with the combination AR fifteen
shotgun and tried to destroy Bohemian Grove legend. I love
reading about that stuff. It's nonsense, but it's fun. I mean,

(37:56):
like I actually have Oh oh no, go please okay,
or we're doing we're doing We're doing this one. Okay.
If you if you were on the live show, you've
heard this. You were not on the live show. You
have which is that? Okay? From from from the late
nineteen seventies until the early nineteen eighties when it was
busted by the Italian police, the Italian government is run
by a rogue Masonic lodge called the Peach Organization. God,

(38:17):
I know it's propaganda due very various elements. Okay. So
there's this thing going on here. There's various elements use
the Red Brigades as as a way to assassinate Eldo Morrow.
They take them to a hotel that is like it's
run by like one of the Red cardinals is one
of those sort of the communist cardinals is like in
this building is like a NATO weapons is like someone

(38:38):
a NATO weapons dealer, an Italian general of the regulaser.
I think I see a red laser hovering over. This
is all real? This was right, Look, this is the
raight three. It's the thing is the thing is that? Okay,
so every conspiracy theory on earth is real, but it

(38:59):
was only real from about nineteen seventy seven to nineteen
eighty three in Italy, Like all of them are there
at the same time, like during the alder Morro assassination,
like the the two groups trying to free Elder Morrow
are the Pope on the one hand, and then well

(39:20):
iatually Sadure's there's the Pope who's working through an Israeli
guy in the castnet, and the other for him is
it's the pfl piece. She's got one of them, the
pup what he had gotten, Okay, like one of the
one of the one of the guys who make sures,
who make sure that the elder Morrow dies is he's

(39:42):
like a now and he's now insane Alex Jones conspiracy guy,
Like he's on Alex Jones all the time. He was like,
he's the hostage. Yeah, yeah, he's the guy. That guy. Yeah,
he's a he's a regular fixture. Yeah. So like the
people try to kill it. Like the both the US
the Soviets, independently of each other, are both trying to
make sure this guy dies. Same with the East Germans,
the fucking oh what's it called, the miner Mainhoff group,

(40:05):
the weird Germany also revolves all right. Meanwhile, I am
I am a nine to eleven truther. Uh in there, God,
I don't believe that when you call nine to one
one it goes anywhere. I think. I think they're just
hooking you up to an AI. It's it's a con people.
Oh shit, Rudy Giuliani has to pay those Georgia election

(40:29):
workers one hundred and fifty million dollars. I feel like
he's got that. Yeah, I feel like he's got that
hanging around. It will be good. No, but he literally
defamed the ship out of those lovely, lovely people. He
I mean, defamation is like of what he does. Okay,
new new favorite conspiracy theory. Panera Bread made the deadly

(40:50):
lemonade on purpose, as are whatever who cares wait genocide.
That's where we see. I fully support the lemonade that
kills you. I think we need more lemonade that kills Pete.
We're gonna take a quick guide break. We'll be right back,

(41:17):
and we are back. What are you most excited to
work on this year? Slashould be a part of create
What are we most excited to work on? Next year?
And I've been stockpiling a lot of and so I
I I got some plans. I got some plans. I
got some plans. Do we believe or not? That's that's

(41:40):
the real question. I don't know. That's that's someone else's
job to decide. I can tell you from experience that
the ATF will visit your employer if you conclude instructions
on how to make in your in your work. It's legal.
Go ahead, and they'll still believe you. Go ahead, Garrison.
I'm planning to attend a whole bunch of more kind

(42:01):
of occult conferences or paranormal conventions and and get get
more into the high strangeness world this year. That's that's
something I'm I'm excited about. I'm really excited. We're launching
a weekly show with Jimmie Loftus starting in the spring
that I'm very excited to be producing. So look out

(42:22):
for that. I Okay, I've been working on this for
a fucking year now, but it's coming next year, which
is my episodes on the lab leak stuff. I have
a corkboard that makes that entire Italy corkboard. I've spent
so many hours talking to epidemiologists losing my mind. But

(42:45):
it's coming, it will happen. I'm very excited about it.
You you have been talking about these episodes for quite
a while, literally a year. It's Robert I have agreed
to do a podcast that is going to be a nightmare,
but you'll you'll all love it. You'll all love it
as it ruins my life. And uh, I don't know,

(43:06):
probably eventually the Robert E. Lee episodes, we'll get those out.
You know what I've been doing. I've been working on
a te Lawrence series of episodes, so that I'm very
excited about. Amazing Lawrence of Arabia, the guy who invented
the concept of insurgency. So that'll that'll be good. That'll
be a good series. I hope Robert and I get

(43:29):
to go back to me and Ma and do maybe
a visit to some different groups. That would be cool.
I would like that. I'm excited to do more migration stuff. Yeah,
spend more time and on different parts of the migration journey,
because I think that's something I've wanted to do for
a long time, and like I've seen a lot of

(43:49):
people do really shitty versions of it. So I'm excited
to give you a cracket at not doing a cringe
voyeuristic version of that. Everyone else have an answer to that?
Did your answer, Shreanny, I didn't. I feel like I
have two answers, like one, I'm not excited at all,
because I feel like the most when I'm most motivated,
it's when i'm the most angry, and so I'm not

(44:10):
excited for things to make me angry and upset. But
I am looking forward to I think I like when
I have people on that are like experts or they
have knowledge that I don't, and so I like the
possibility of having more conversations that are enlightening, I suppose.
And yeah, I also I would like to talk more

(44:31):
about corn and food, so maybe I should focus on that.
Maybe I should focus on something could happen here. Yeah, yeah,
that's that's something I look forward to, something to be fun.
We definitely want to do more farm animal episodes, yes,
and food, more food episodes. But no, you bring up
a good point about how this kind of whole show
works is that all of the best stuff we make,

(44:52):
in my opinion, is always related to things that we're
passionate about, and passion can come in a few forms.
Anger something that is a big driver of passion, but that's,
you know, usually less fun. So it's always nice and
we can be able to cover something that we are
passionate about, but it comes from not a place of anger,
but it comes from a place of like, like like

(45:13):
genuine like intense interest. Yeah, like, I genuinely love corn.
I loved the conversation about sheep, So I look forward
to the possibility of making things not just when I'm
like enraged and more when I'm like that's a good point.
That's a good point that passion can can come from
different things. Because I was just as passionate talk about
corn than I was to talk about an important thing

(45:35):
that happened. So yeah, I have I have a specific
question that I vetted to James ahead of time, which is,
do you have any stories about meeting fans or listeners?
I r l I do. I'm not just stepping on
to you. Please approach Robbit when he's buying groceries. But
but yeah, yeah, no, dou do it. Don't. He's very ticulish.

(45:59):
I always armed in the grocery store, so please don't
do that. That's why you kind of tickle them. Don't
tick or rubber guys. It's weird. Yeah, so loads of
people are not loads, but a lot of people who've
listened to our podcast who come to help in Aucumber,
and they're all very nice, and I've enjoyed building Gortz
and making sandwiches and ladeling out beans with them immensely,

(46:20):
and it genuinely does make me really happy because it
can like when we do the podcast, we see like
each other in our little rooms and then it just
goes out into the ether and you never know who's listening.
And so it's really cool when people listen and then
like show up and do something that meaningfully makes the
world a better place, and that makes me feel very hopeful.
And that's another like passion thing. Like I think, especially

(46:44):
the mutual aid stuff we've done at the border, it
makes me feel really hopeful that like we can do
things just fine without the state and without the resources
of masters of capital and without any major sort of
orcs or like institutions behind death, Like we can just
help each other and do amazing things. So, yeah, when
people show up for that, it's cool. Slightly way when

(47:07):
they show up listening to the podcast and I hear
myself in their car is it's not okay? But other
than that, yeah, I trying to catch up with those people. Yeah, yeah,
I too would be trying to catch up if I
had to listen to all the stuff we put out.
I think it's honestly really cool that people show up
for that kind of stuff. It makes it, It makes
so much of the weird parts of being a podcast

(47:29):
host worth it when stuff like that. Yeah, that's been
something that that me has been pointing out recently, how
we seem to be one of in terms of like,
you know, podcasts that that that cover the sorts of
things we do. We're our fan base seems to be
relatively offline in a lot of ways, and a lot
of a lot of them. Actually, a lot of the

(47:50):
people actually do a lot of real world stuff, which
is great. Like that's that that That's kind of the
entire point is that most of the things we talk about,
there's there's there's he said, you have the power to
change it in small ways. You know, it's no like
large immediate effects, like you solve the problem immediately, but

(48:11):
there's there's always small things that can that can slowly
change the tide of many of the problems that we
discuss every day. Yeah, we're gonna through to an ad
break here. Unless you have Cooler Zone Media and Android listeners.
That is coming soon. It's a little bit out of
our control on that end, but we do ask about
it constantly and it will be happening. If you have

(48:34):
a Cooler Zone account, you cannot die. That's fun, that's
a good it's the true fact. So purchase it, render
yourself immune to the passage of time, and we're back.

(48:59):
I'm gonna ask. I'm gonna ask what's everyone's favorite Christmas movie? Okay,
so I I have already talked about my annual Batman
Returns watch party, which was a great, a great success
this year. It was a big hit. I made tons.
I made about probably like four dozen lot because it

(49:19):
was a lot of fun. We got to wow, Wow, Robert,
you show this for jobs kind of humor. That's crazy,
what a dub. But no, we got I got a
nice group of people to to google at Danny Dibrito
vomiting black U for approximately two hours. So that was

(49:42):
a big win. It's it's by far the best Christmas
movie in my in my no, I agree, it's my
favorite one by far, and Bangery, me and my family
have lost it consistently since I was like a child
like but like since I was like two years old. Oh,
we just were obsessed with it. And I don't remember
if you said this last year, and I already this
is like a repeat of the conversation. But I agree,
that's the best Christmas movie I can think of. Yeah,

(50:06):
Michael Keaton, total domination. Here we go. Best best Batman
by miles. He's just miles away from So. When I
was growing up, my parents used to ditch my brother
and I and go to the Laker game on Christmas
and we just explained so much. Yeah, so much, Sophie.

(50:27):
I'm sorry, Like I love you, I love your parents
and I and I respect it. But my brother and
I used to watch like we would spend the entire
day watching all the like Hobbin and Lord of the
Rings movies. Nice. That just feels that feels like Christmas
to me. Sure, Yeah, especially especially the animated ones definitely
have that kind of like fantasy jolly kind of feel. Totally. Yeah,

(50:51):
I yeah, anybody else I like to watch love actually,
but it's very pretty dreams. It's so basic of you.
I know. Yeah, I'm secretly basic white lady. Every time
I watch you into something else problematic that I hadn't
previously fought before. And it's getting to a point where
I should probably stop talking about it in public. That's amazing. Yeah,

(51:15):
now the audience knows who the biggest wife guy on
the team is. Definitely Javes. This is a question for Robert,
looking back on season one, if it could happen here,
do you still see a second civil American Civil War
as a likely or plausible event in our near future? Yeah,
I mean I think it's possible. We're going to look

(51:36):
back on where we are right now as the earlier
stages of it. Right, civil conflict is pretty widespread. I
think one of the differences, like, for example, one of
the big differences with that the Texas, California, Waians Yeah
four Civil War movie is it's it's clearly imagining like

(51:57):
a large scale military conflict. I don't find that particularly likely.
But you do have one major political party stating that
when we take power in twenty twenty four, are guy's
going to act as a dictator. He's going to imprison
and execute his political opponents. And you have widespread acts

(52:20):
of violence and violent threats that are occurring as part
of a as part of the political conflicts that have
existed in this country for a while, they've all transitioned
to being kind of explicitly acts of public violence or
at least public threats of violence. You're seeing this around,

(52:41):
for example, a lot of the discourse surrounding what's happening
in Gaza. Right, you just had that case where like
some fucking like grade school teacher threatened to cut a
student's throat for criticizing Israel. Like the degree to which
people who are if you'll forgive the less technical or
pieces of shit feel emboldened to use and threaten violence

(53:04):
in the furtherance of their political agendas. Is something we
may wind up seeing. Is like, yeah, we were in
it by this point. So again I'm not a believer,
and a big part of it could happen here is
like I don't I don't think any mass civil conflict
in the United States is going to be armies fighting
over states, right, yeah, because that's that's simply not realistic.

(53:28):
But I do think we are in what any reasonable
person would call a mass civil conflict. And you know,
my big question is whether or not we're going to
see it as a civil conflict or as an extension
of a global conflict which includes outright shooting wars but

(53:51):
also mass information warfare. In this kind of planetary struggle
between the idea at least if not the promise that
democracy is the kind of goal, and the strongly held
belief by large groups of people that we need an

(54:14):
authoritarian system governed effectively by the people who are presently
in power. Right, you are seeing this kind of struggle
between the idea that we should have a system in
which people are allowed to pick their leaders and this
idea that, like the winners of the last twenty years
of capitalism and politics, should be able to solidify their

(54:35):
hold forever. So my big question is whether or not
we're going to come to see where we are right
now as the early stages of a civil conflict that's
going to get progressively more violent and have a progressively
higher body count. Or are we going to see this
as part of a global military and political struggle that

(54:57):
is going to kind of shake out the next hundred
years of kind of the political status quo on Earth,
and in a similar way to like World War Two,
you know, more or less laid out the next eighty
or ninety or something like that. I've got two more questions.
Sounds good. First, do you each of you have a

(55:20):
favorite episode you've put out? We're all trying not to
say the come episode the same time. I really have.
I have some really bad at all, really some bad news.
That was the most I just downloaded episode of Yeah, Yeah,
Everybody loves Look, Everybody loves loves talking about Come Yeah?

(55:42):
Are you fucking s I'm with you, Sharinye with you? Sorry,
So I have you've been out voted. I'm never I'm
never out voted I have ultimate veto powers guys to
struggle was talking about right here side disgusting. I mean,

(56:05):
it's it's certainly hard to even pick one episode just
from this year. I mean, but it's the com episode. Yeah.
I will say this episode was fun to put together.
I we we really delved into the the trenches there
that few would you say it would you say? It

(56:26):
really came together. I'm gonna I'm going to answer these
questions for each of you with each of your work,
because I'm a fucking professional. Garrisons Skopcop City. Where has
been just that I really tell I tell this to
go out. They're the most amazing storyteller. You really feel

(56:47):
like you are. You're able to visualize everything going on
with the words that they say, and I think it's
an important story that they've been on top of since
the beginning. I don't think any covers labor issues in
the way that Mia does, and I think Mia has
really done that in twenty twenty three, and we'll continue

(57:08):
that in twenty twenty four in a way that's not
being covered in mainstream media. And I think that those
stories are extremely important and have made a significant impact
on labor and union culture and strikes and fighting for
what's right. James Man, It's like I want to say,

(57:30):
I want to say the work you do at the border,
but I really love when you talk about things that
are silly, and I think they're equally as important. But James,
James talking about sheep and the joy that James had
when he talked about sheep is really special. But also
the work that you've done talking about the word MEMR

(57:51):
and helping people at the border has been extremely impactful
to our listeners. Shoe Shoe is a historical almanac to
all things in the Middle East and has I think
educated not just the audience but also all of us
on things that really everyone should know. And I think

(58:15):
that she's brilliant and I love you. She read Robert, Hey, Sophie,
it's the cup episode, right, That's definitely not the episode.
But it's really hard to pick my favorite Robert episode
because I record with him like most days. But I
think that what Robert has done specifically within Bastards in

(58:38):
twenty twenty three was really get on top of the
bastards we're all surviving right now, which I think he
did a really great job talking about Andrew Tait. I
think he did an incredible job getting an episode out
immediately about Stockton Rush, the guy who killed these people
under the submersial really really the hero of the year, right,

(59:02):
the guy responsible for the great feel good story of
twenty twenty three. So much better a time we need,
we need. I feel like we can solve most of
the world's problems with another eleven or so of those subs.
And it is true, and a similar socioeconomic group on
board them. You're definitely not not wrong there. I'd just

(59:23):
like to say, you know, if you're wondering why the
New York Times in the Washington Post are too big
a cowards to do a come episode like we did.
You know, there's an old quote. If you want to
know who rules, you ask who you can't criticize. That's
all I'm saying. That's all I'm saying, Garrison, I see you,

(59:45):
I see you doubting me. But you know it's true.
You know it's true. Anyways, Yeah, it's a slash no
fat All right, that's should ask another question, But like, really,
what's what's the point. What's the point we've climax guys, Sweeten,
Oh my god, thank you, James, thank you. I appreciate

(01:00:09):
the teamwork James. Someone had to Robert, but my my
apologies to Ian for this night. We have an edit.
But yeah, anybody have any final thoughts, anything, anything, James,
do you have anything you want to plug in terms
of donations or anything? Yeah? I do, actually, uh so

(01:00:30):
we have a fundraiser for what we're doing at the border.
It would be really lovely if you could give us
some of your money because I have spent all of
the money that I have, uh and some money that
I don't have. It's GoFundMe dot com slash cucumber hyphen
migrant hyphen camps or TinyURL dot com slash border aid,
g f M. How do they spell cucumber. That's a

(01:00:52):
good question because that's c U M b A so
like it's Spanish. Yeah, you can also tiny rl slash
border aid, g FM, TinyURL dot com. That's that's an
easy one to remember. Great, and we'll be back tomorrow.
This is a daily show. Bye, hello everyone, and welcome

(01:01:25):
to it Could Happen Here podcast, returning from our holiday
break to discuss the exciting topic of infectious diseases in
Gaza and for that we're joined by an all star
cast of experts. We have joining us today Saskia Popescu,
who's an infectious disease epidemiologist and assistant professor at the
University of Maryland. Welcome Saska, Thank you for joining us.

(01:01:49):
Thanks so much for having me. Yeah, of course, yeah,
you're welcome. It's not just you. We've also got Cave
Carve is back. I'm back, baby, that's actually my first time.
This is Sharene. Also i'm here. This is my first
time meeting Cove. So this is a real trick. Yeah, sure,
I've done you wrong, Sharen, I'm sorry I didn't introduce you.
That's okay, it's probably in the description or something that

(01:02:11):
I'm here. No one's yeah, make a valuable contribution. People
will know you're here. But yeah, it's all of us,
And yeah, we're talking today because like I think the origin, sorry,
of this particular episode is like a few weeks ago,
there was a very funny thing on the internet about
people in the I d F getting diarrhea, which is

(01:02:33):
funny object that's what the dn id F stands for. Actually, yeah,
the kid to saying, but sorry, no, it's donny. Don't
you ever apologize. Yeah, yeah, you do, not apologize for
any opportunity just to ship on them. You're good. Yeah,

(01:02:54):
expect many. It's half an hour at least of this.
Don't be driving because you might laugh too much. But no,
it's very funny. It's the name of our group chat.
It's the as really Diarrhea Forces. But aside from that,
like this raises a more important question, right, which is
that people in Gaza don't have access to very many

(01:03:14):
medical supplies to begin with. Weird things are embargoed like
tornic keys, which you've spoken about in this podcast before.
They also have obviously a very resource constrained environment to
begin with, and then a number of their hospitals have
been bombed since then, which obviously further reduces their access
to medical care. Also, they have less aclos to things

(01:03:34):
like running water now because they're being bombed to an
incredible degree. And so Saskia has joined us today to
like explain the risk of the spread of infectious disease,
maybe give us an update on like what's already happening
and the risks of what could happen. So I guess
maybe we should start off with really basic stuff and
explain what infectious diseases are and like how they're different

(01:03:57):
from noncommunical diseases gets people aren't familiar, would one if
you like to do that, Yeah, I'm happy to so
infectious diseases, you know, when we talk about diseases in general,
as you mentioned, there are chronic diseases, things like diabetes, cancer.
When we talk about infectious diseases, meaning they're communicable for
the most part, that means that they are spread through
various sources human to human, like influenza. There's things like

(01:04:20):
anthrax that you can equali Campellobacter that you can get
from soil, from food, and the zoonotic diseases that they
are also spread through animals, so things like ebola mirrors
which is Middle East respiratory syndrome, coronavirus. So infectious diseases
are viruses, bacteria, fungi, parasites, and they really love to

(01:04:43):
take advantage of high stress environments for bread and unfortunately
this is one of them. So this is a very
What we see with infectious diseases a lot is that
conflict and environments where people are stressed, resources are stressed,
and the environment is under continuous bombardment. There's densely populated spaces,

(01:05:04):
no access to health, clean food, and water, et cetera.
I mean, I could probably go on for five minutes
about what makes an infectious disease spread, is going to
amplify it. So these are diseases that take advantage of
these environments. I'll add that the situation is just a
perfect setup for infectious disease to run rampant. There's over

(01:05:27):
one point nine million people that have been displaced. Of that,
one point four million are living in overcrowded shelters at
this point. And in the best scenario from what I've seen,
there's one toilet for every two hundred and twenty people. Now,
if you ever lived in like a house of like
five people and there's like one case of diarrhea, you'll

(01:05:47):
realize how terrible that is. Now you amplify that to
two hundred and twenty at the minimum, and that's the
best case scenario. I've heard its highest one per seven
hundred people in some places. And then you know, people
have to go in the streets, they have to know
where there's water supplies, and you're you're going to be
infecting those areas. There's one shower for every like four thousand,
five hundred people again in best case scenario. So it's

(01:06:09):
a huge number of people getting concentrated into smaller and
smaller areas and without the infrastructure there to handle that
in any way. And when that happens, I mean, we
are going to see I am really worried about seeing
in the end of this more depths from infectious disease
than from the bombardments. Yeah, well, that's that's like a

(01:06:31):
It almost feels like a double another weapon that they're
that they're that they've used because they're not letting them
have a chance to recuperate or have a sanitary place
to do surgeries or anything. Because if they're doing surgery
with unsanitary conditions, they can get infect like the wounds
can get infected, and that's a whole nother thing. Or
even just like having waste in the street, like making it,

(01:06:54):
like having it fester. It just it's it's really I
think people forget that it's not just like a building
was destroyed, people were killed. It's there's lasting effects that
linger for probably generations. You know. It's just I don't
know what really is infuriating. I think the crazy part
is the World Health organization. So the WHO recently released

(01:07:18):
some data as to what is being reported to them
in terms of disease, and they said, so far, Now
keep in mind these are just reported numbers, and that
means it's just the tip of the iceberg. In most cases,
one hundred thousand cases of diarrhea and those are in
young children, So half of those are in young children
out of the age of five, which means it can
be deadly. And this number is just twenty five percent

(01:07:39):
higher than what we have seen reported pre conflict. And
in terms of respiratory infections, the things like covid, influenza
and pneumonia, one hundred and fifty thousand cases. And that's
just the numbers that we know about. But we're also
seeing cases and outbreaks of things like meningitis, skin rashes, babies, LCE,
chicken pox, which is highly infectious. And you know, we

(01:08:02):
worry in those cases about when people are in these
close quarters and their bodies are already strained, because one
thing we do know is that when your bodies physiologically
under stress meaning no sleep, malnutrition, you know, not access
to clean water to wash your hands, not you're dehydrated,
et cetera, you're at an increased risk for disease and

(01:08:23):
severe disease. So that means that people are at higher
risk to get it and then to spread it in
these environments, and that's what's really scary because it becomes
a hot spot for transmission. And you mentioned that this
feels like a secondary effect in many ways. It's almost
like a secondary conflict, if you will, and one that
will leave lasting implications because what we do know is

(01:08:44):
that disease and conflict go hand in hand. When I
think about it a lot, it's and we've seen this
unfortunately throughout time, is that conflict can bring disease and
it can amplify disease. When I say bring disease, we
know that people in these spaces soldiers can bring in
disease that are reinspread around. But we've also seen sexually
transmitted diseases in the past being spread through sexual assault

(01:09:06):
and sexual violence, and that's one thing I definitely worry
about it. Unfortunately, we know that's happening and it's not
something we're going to see reported for a while, but
things like that can and do occur, and it's a
very scary situation. If I can tack on a little
bit to the diarrhea subject here because I am a
GI and liver doc. I mean, in a typical month

(01:09:28):
in Gaza, there is about two thousand cases of diarrhea
and kids under five, and in the last month there
was over forty thousand cases. And for kids that aren't
getting water, they're not getting the recommended amount of like
daily water, like it's like seven to eight leaders in
refugee situations is what's recommended. These people are getting like
one to two leaders per whole families, so they're not

(01:09:50):
staying hydrated. And these are kids that are most vulnerable.
That's the part that is really hard for me. And
I've actually seen people sort of downclay it, like just like, well, diarrhea,
you know, that's what you get, but in these situations,
it's it's going to be very serious for these kids.
And the other thing we're seeing is cases of jaundice.
They're noting that people are becoming that, which to me
suggests that there's hepatitis A and hepatitis E, which is

(01:10:13):
you know, you get through fecal oral contamination. And hepatitis
E in particular is what concerns me because there's pregnant
women and when pregnant women get hepatitis E, it's worse
for them. There's that that's a really bad situation. And
when that happens, I mean, these are these are women
who are already not getting support, They're already under nourished,

(01:10:34):
They're not able to produce breast milk, they are going
to be sick, They're not going to be able to
feed their kids. It's I mean, I can't. I can't imagine, honestly,
I mean, I know, it's it's funny. We can say
these things, we can talk about the numbers, but it
is like to actually wrap my brain around it breaks
my brain. I cannot, like imagine the numbers of people

(01:10:56):
that are sick and are in these hospitals, not just
being treated, but like the NASA Hospital, which is one
of the two hospitals in Gaza. You know, there are
like a three hundred and fifty bed hospital. There are
already over like a thousand patients, and not to mention
the many thousands, over seventy thousand people just staying there,

(01:11:18):
you know, for for refuge. It's absolutely a nightmare. I can't.
I can't write my brain around it. Yeah, Like often
I know when I speak to colleagues who are there
or at the journalist say they'll go to hospitals a
in the hope that they'll be safe, which hasn't proven
to be true sadly, which is pretty messed up. But
be you know that they have many generators, right, so
they can charge and and tell the world what's happening,

(01:11:40):
or try to. It seems like some of the word
isn't listening, but yeah it there. Cospitals are incredibly overgrowded.
I wonder like if we could go back to diarrhea
and there's not like a fun topic, stoke about it. Yeah,
fix score, Yeah, it's ready, time to shine. Yeah, life's work. So,
like I think it was diarrhea that I read kills

(01:12:02):
more people than conflict annually. Oh yeah worldwide sure, yeah yeah,
well I mean Saskia probably has better numbers on it
than I do, actually, but worldwide, yeah, it's probably the
number one, number one killer. So like let's just break
that because I most of like by the very nature
that's being a podcast, right, most are people listening are

(01:12:23):
in the in the kind of the in the neoliberal
core or the global north, whatever you want to call it, right,
Like they have a smartphone and they've downloaded this, and
it might be difficult to understand how you die from diarrhea,
which is like an inconvenience in a lot of places.
So can you just explain that for people so they
can they can understand and how the conditions that we

(01:12:46):
see in Gaza would compound that Saska, Do you want
me to go first? Oh? All you, I'll talk about
how it spreads. You can talk, okay. So, I mean,
the there's a couple of issues that can happen. There's
a lot, but I mean dehydration is going to be
a major one, and loss of electrolytes. I mean, these
people can get so badly dehydrated that their circulatory system

(01:13:10):
isn't working properly. Or they can lose the amount of
electrolytes that they need and they're not replacing and that
can cause cardiovascular issues as well. So it's a terrible
way to die. I mean, you know, cholerara and these
terrible like diarrheal epidemics that you know, we think of
of mostly in the past. They're terrible. They're terrible ways

(01:13:33):
to go and especially if you don't have the I mean,
it's treatable usually it's treatable. You know, you get fluid rehydration,
you get electrolyte management. It's it's pretty manageable in the
right situation. But if you don't have that, it's gonna
be a devastating thing to the body over time, and
for young kids sooner rather than later. Yeah, so maybe

(01:13:57):
we should explained how it spread. Yeah, I mean the
scary part. So there's multiple pathogenes that can cause diarheal illness,
and for the most part, we see bacteria and viruses.
If you've had neurovirus, which is the cruise ship bug,
that is highly transmissible, meaning it just goes through households

(01:14:18):
and environments very very quickly. During outbreaks. You can't just
use hand sanitizer and a simple disinfectant. You need bleach.
And if you're if we're thinking about the best case scenario,
and I've seen you know, diarreheal illnesses go through schools, hospitals,
you name it. We still struggle to contain those. Now,
put yourself in an environment with this level of stress,

(01:14:38):
and you know the thirty six hospitals in Gazda Gaza,
twenty six have been damaged, twenty one are not functional
at all thirteen are partially functioning and two are barely functioning.
So we know that access to care is a challenge.
Resources I can't even imagine. So that means the capacity
to treat patients with antibiotics, with fluids, everything, and now

(01:14:59):
can paint it, which is the disinfection you know, all
the infection prevention essentially, And I don't even want to
think about contact tracing in public health interventions because it
doesn't exist. It's an entirely collapsed system. You know, this
is a humanitarian crisis. So when you know, when you
have people in close quarters and there's a lot of
high touch items because a lot of diarreal illness is

(01:15:21):
spread through touch. It's you know, contaminated hands and objects,
and then you know, you touch your mouth, you eat
with your hands, et cetera. That's how these things are spread.
So between the bathroom not having access, you know, not
having access to restrooms. You know, we mentioned the toilet situation,
there's also one shower for every forty five hundred people,
So we know that people are not able to clean

(01:15:42):
themselves effectively, and this is a ripe condition for diarreal
illness to spread, and they it spreads very quickly, very efficiently,
and it is exceedingly hard to get rid of. And
it worries me because a lot of these diseases, it's
not just like you get at one time and you
have immunity to it. It can keep going awaydun and
if you have a situation like that where you cannot

(01:16:04):
clean effectively, you can't treat effectively, then we're just going
to see it continuously compound. And that's absolutely terrifying because
you know, we were talking about pregnant women earlier. There's
fifty thousand pregnant women right now in Gaza and they
are malnourished. That's just at the tip of the iceberg.
And we see that so many children there are malnourished.
And these are very dangerous infections for vulnerable people. And

(01:16:29):
on the best of days, we struggle to contain diarreal illness.
So my big concern is this and respiratory viruses, to
be honest with you, because when you have this many
people in close quarters and ignore the fact that they
are extremely you know, physically strained and stressed right now,
which is when your immune system struggles, it's going to
spread and it's going to be exceedingly hard to contain it.

(01:16:50):
So this is an environment where we're going to see
diarreal illness spread and it's going to unfortunately kill a
lot more people then we will even realize. It's going
to take years to understand implications of this, you know,
if we even consider that access to clean water and food,
and we've been talking a lot about malnourishment, which is huge,
but I'm also concerned to the quality of food that

(01:17:13):
they're getting too, and the water, all of it. Everything
about the situation is going to spread disease. It's you know,
I know that sounds quite dramatic, but it's entirely true. No,
I mean, I'm glad you're emphasizing that, because I don't
think people realize the gravity of of like a second
wave of death like that that happens like not even

(01:17:33):
not with weapons. Uh. But no, I'm glad you emphasize that.
Let's uh, let's take our first break. We'll be right back.
And it reminds me too of when we saw UN

(01:17:56):
peacekeepers in Haiti and they introduced polera, and you know,
and that's it's an unfortunate reality when you are bringing
in groups of people to in this you know, for
in Haiti, they were trying to help the situation. In
this case, it's not surprising. I mean, there's a really
good book called Contagions and Chaos that actually talks about

(01:18:17):
how infectious diseases can amplify conflict or create it. And ultimately,
I think we're just going to see this as a
rolling in health issue until there's a ceasefire and until
there's really substantial work in there to resource and to
take care of people. I mean, it's scared any Kyve.
You mentioned that you had a question for Saskia. I

(01:18:39):
do you know You've written and you talked a lot
about the intersections of science and policy, particularly in terms
of COVID nineteen. We've seen that global threats elsewhere can
affect Americans, and I'm wondering, is there a way to
try and appeal to Westerners who aren't that interested yet
and why they should care about infectious diseases that are

(01:19:03):
rising or become rampant in other places. Is there an
argument you can make to these people who may not
care that much about the Palestinian people per se. Oh,
there's the political answer I should give you, and then
there's the real answer, which is political answer saying that
you know people do care, and you know we're just

(01:19:24):
having the console in your mind them. But the real
answer is, look, we just came out of three and
a half years of a pandemic and at this point,
if people don't give a shit, they're not going to.
And I know that's crude for me to say, but
it's I've been working in this and we've seen it
from Ebola to mers too, empocs, and in now coming
out of COVID. I think we can safely say that,

(01:19:47):
you know, it's not a matter of if, but when.
But people really like the saying that is infectious disease
knows no borders, and to a certain extent that is true.
Infectious diseases they don't know that, but it ignores the
fact that some countries are are more equipped to handle them,
and that borders our pores concept. So in this case,
I think from an American perspective, where it is a

(01:20:11):
very complicated relationship Americans have and I'm not getting into that.
When it comes to Israel, the reality is that it
shouldn't matter if it's a conflict. If you see an
outbreak somewhere, you should be worried for those people, and
it shouldn't matter if it's going to impact you. But
now that we have lived through a pandemic, a historical event,

(01:20:33):
I would like to think people would see this and
realize any one of these diseases can come to the States,
it can strain global resources. And I'm hopeful that with
the amount of attention that's coming to this and that
the work that the WHO and the UN have been
drawing attention to it, that will change. But I get
a little nervous every time we talk about infectious diseases

(01:20:56):
and conflict areas, because I find that America and it's
not just us, that people in high income countries disassociate
because that is a conflict related issue, but it's not
Conflict can mean many different things, and it's essentially saying,
this is an issue that's going to bubble out of control.
And if we were in a situation where there was
no clean food and water, we had no access to

(01:21:17):
health services, in medicine, fuel was an issue, in power,
no communication, and I just read that three Palestinian internet
providers went down, so they have no way to contact
outside world. They have housing, safe passes, et cetera. Any
one of those impacted US, we would be experiencing it.
And I will leave that question with one comment. That's
to say we are a very well resourced country. The

(01:21:39):
US invests so many resources into health, global health, security, biopreparedness,
all of the above, and we were one of the
worst performers when it came to COVID response. And I
say that having worked in health care during that and
doing epidemiology, and I think this should be a continuous
wake up call that it's we're one disease away from

(01:22:01):
an international crisis, and when we see this, it should
really speak to the fact that it is global health.
It's not national health, not local health, it is global health.
That's my ted talk, the good tech talk. I guess
like if I could piggyback on that, there is not
a single war that I have covered, either remotely or
in person, where I have not then seen those people

(01:22:24):
arrive our border where I live. Like I was in
Syrian Kurdistan in October. I am seeing people leaving Turkey,
more and more Turkish Kurdistan, but also Syrian Kurdistan, or
people who went to Syria went back to Turkey at
our southern border. Right now, I am seeing people from
conflicts all over the world at our southern border right now,

(01:22:45):
and every single conflict, because we tend to stick our
nose into every single conflict, it ends up here right
because we tell people we support them and then we
abandon them, and they come here thinking that we were
going to support them. I also add that every time
there is infectia disease outbreak going forward, it will be
used in the same way that COVID was to prevent asylum.

(01:23:08):
So the title forty two that was used to like
quote unquote catch and release migrants at the southern border
allowed border patrol to eject people without processing their asylum came.
That's a public health law, it's dot a migration law.
Biden's already indicated that he would love to do the
same thing again, and like, you don't even need an
excuse with this in focused disease stuff, right The laws

(01:23:29):
are already there, and it was already in place for
several years, so it's kind of stood the test of
the courts. And this will impact even if you don't
give a shit about people in Palestine, and maybe you
should examine what's up with your morality if you do
like this will impact you because people will come here,
and it will impact you because people who should come
here won't be able to and that will mean that

(01:23:51):
people who have done nothing wrong, who trusted us when
we lie to them. You know, people Americans seem to
care about afghanstanare than other people. Like I've spoken to
a hundred roods of Afghan women in our border and
like they were stuck under Title forty two in very
dangerous situations in places like Mexico. So even if you
only care about those people, you should still care about this.

(01:24:12):
I guess can I add something to I think, please,
you know, to avoid fueling isolationism, because I think that
happens all the time when we talk about these global
health issues. Every resource that has to be put to
helping this health crisis that is bubbling out of a
humanitarian crisis is a resource that's not back where it's

(01:24:34):
supposed to be addressing global health issues. Meaning so for example,
when we saw the people outbreak in West Africa in
twenty fourteen, after there were you know, we started to
actually realize the implications to malaria control, tuberculosis, HIV. So
when we have to throw a bunch of emergency resources

(01:24:55):
at a crisis, those are coming out of somewhere else.
And I too that people don't realize that we're you know,
as the who, the un everywhere, MSS is having to
help this situation because there's no access to care, and
again is a health crisis. That means we're going to
start to see other things pop up elsewhere, and that

(01:25:16):
really worries me because we are already very strained when
it comes to global health resources. We just again came
out of a pandemic. So everyone's tired, everyone's burnt out.
We've got health systems and a lot of and we're
seeing even in the US where a lot of funding
for like the CDC is being pulled and NIH. So
now that we're out of kind of coming back into

(01:25:38):
this panic neglect cycle, I worry that a lot of
the resources that we're having to pull to address this
crisis are going to then ultimately leave a lot of
other places at risk or infectious diseases, for long term
health implications. So it is a lot bigger than one
area or people you know, having to flee to the US.
It's all of these things, and too often we approach

(01:26:01):
this with a very short sighted this and we have,
we don't you know, we have finite resources when it
comes to global health response, and when we have to
use them because you know we're not you know, approaching
this effectively or appropriately, then we're going to see larger applications. Yeah,
even like we can just keep building off each other

(01:26:22):
stuff and it's not here from the other two. Even recently,
I was trying to buy some humanitarian daily rations for
the border, which are people aren't familiar. They're like MRIs
for refugees, and make sure we eat one on our
live show once. It's very salty, Yeah, very salty. That's
good for the electrolytes. But like that is the State Department.

(01:26:43):
It's buying the back of surplus retailers at the minute,
which like means that there's obviously like a critical lack
of supply of these things. Same with UNHCR shelters, and
like that means that someone else doesn't get to eat, right,
because we've just massively increased burden of people who desperately
need to eat. Like it's not like these things were

(01:27:04):
chilling before, like there were you know, hunger is still
a massive problem in the world, despite us having so
much food here and so like the say, Yet the
same is true of medical supplies, like you said, right
that that means that somebody else doesn't get them, that
money doesn't go to something else very important that it
could be going to. Can I ask about something I
just learned about the past couple of days. So on
December twenty fifth, the Jerusalem Posts reported that an IDF

(01:27:28):
soldier died of a fungal infection, and apparently he was
hospitalized and eventually he died, and at least ten other
soldiers have been diagnosed with infections of some sort. I
think what kind of made me annoyed is that there
is a headline from the Times of Israel that said,

(01:27:49):
as a soldier with fungal infection dies, fears a grow
of Gaza diseases spreading into Israel and apparently they're examining
whether the infections originated the Hamas tunnels and all this stuff.
I think, while I that's it, really it really bothered
me because I looked at all of these articles. I mean,

(01:28:11):
most of them are obviously Israeli sourced, but it still
was the same rhetoric of there's diseases in Gaza and
our soldiers are getting them, and the Honestly, the takeaway
in all of these was we have to worry about
Israeli public health and the Israeli citizens. It wasn't about
anything about the Gazins or anything like that. And I

(01:28:34):
was just I guess I wanted to ask, is there
any truth at all to the idea that there can
be certain infections localized to that degree even though it's
like a very small country in general. And I guess
it's it's really I feel like it's a fear mongering
tactic using health as a weapon. But I don't know.

(01:28:55):
I'd love to hear your thoughts. Even the fungus has
gone woke. I can't believe it. They've weaponized fungus, sasky.
I'll let you address it, but I would say this,
I mean, I think the fear I just did an
episode of my podcast on funguses and talking about the

(01:29:15):
last of us and seeing like the truth that there's
really a concern, especially with global climate change, and it
is I mean, the thought of a fungus affecting humans
in that way who were not in some way under
their body under stress or immunal suppressed, it's it's not
that likely. And I definitely agree from what I'm hearing

(01:29:35):
that like this is just another way to be like,
look at these dirty people, we should bomb them to
them everything related to Palestinians is oh, they're all it's
all the plague, like they're scary, they're barbaric, and also
they're going to make you sick. It's it's really infuriating.
They're just going at every angle. I just I found
the quote that made me mad. Can I read it? Okay,

(01:29:55):
I'm going to read it. Basically, it says the war
between Israel and moss has led to the destruction of
large swaths of Gaza and internal displacement of the vast
majority of its population, resulting in what is called the
humanitarian crisis for the Palcians. It is called that because
it is that body what if law. These conditions have
led to the outbreaks of various diseases, which can potentially

(01:30:16):
threaten the well being of hundreds of thousands of IDF
troops fighting in Gaza. They can also ultimately spell trouble
for public health in Israel. I just can't believe that's
the takeaway all at Saskia, do you want to address
the spread of fungal infection in a situation like this. Yeah,

(01:30:37):
I mean, look again, this is a situation where disease
is going to be spread and that includes Ida soldiers.
They are risk because guess what, they all have to
go back to their bunks and sleep at night in
close quarters. Do we see diseases spread easily in militaries,
of course, I mean it would be insane not to
think that. But trying to, you know, source it in

(01:31:01):
Palestinians and Gazas is slightly ridiculous because there's no epidemiological
evidence of that. But it's also kind of weird to
me that they're saying a fungal infection. That's a very
specific thing, and bungle infections aren't fast infections for the
most part. You know, when we do see them, I
think from a regional perspective. If you live in the
Southwest like I do. Galley fever is a fungal infection.

(01:31:23):
It's in the dirt though, it's a spore in the dirt,
and it's not spread between people though. That's that's the
key part. It is you inhale it and you get
it and it takes months in a lot of cases,
but you know, you can you see fungal infections. Yeah,
that could be contaminated water, you know, inhalation, through showers,
things like that. I mean, there's ways for that to happen.

(01:31:45):
But we really just for the most part see those
infections spread from an individual source, not an individual person.
They tend to really not be they're environmentally spread, you know.
And I'm not a fungal expert. I can just speak
to the ones that I've seen. Really, we don't see
them spread between people, and so I think that it's
it's a weird choice to say, and I worry a

(01:32:08):
little bit that they're just again to your point, trying
to say like, oh, look, our soldiers are getting sick.
You know, the sacrifice they're making, right, yeah, is so much.
And here's the thing. Conflict is where we're going to
see disease spread no matter what. And I if you're
so worried about soldiers getting fungal infections from Gaza, then

(01:32:30):
maybe keep the people in Gaza safe and then they're
you know, either way you paint this, if you're trying
to blame it on them, they keep them safe and
they won't be able to spread disease. Very simple. Yeah,
they did cite contaminated soil. Okay, that's a contamination thing,
like environmental. Yeah, this one that the tibiologist said that
these soldiers have come back with serious anti microbial resistant

(01:32:52):
infections that they've picked up through contact with contaminated soil,
among other factors. Like one, I feel like it's like
a very direct statement. There's a lot of there's a
lot to unpack there. Again though, if it's in the soil,
it's an environmental exposure. That is like, that's not anyone's
fault from an anti microbial perspective that I'm having a

(01:33:14):
hard time believing that value fever, as I mentioned, is
really hard to treat, so sometimes it's not responsive to
some of the medications you give. But you know you're
gonna get anti microbial infections more so from people and
contaminated objects, because that means that it has to have
been exposed to antibiotics and become resistant to the infections.
But there's that feels like very messy, uh, you know,

(01:33:38):
reporting on their part or communications, because not a lot
of that makes sense to me. And either way, if
they're saying it's from the environment, congratulations, you've just proven
you're not getting it from people. Yeah, thank you. For
getting into that. I just the the Hammas tunnels, the
Hamas terror tunnels, sorry in their words, their terror tunnels.
They're going to investigate whether infections have originated from there.

(01:33:59):
It just it's also just that doesn't make any sense.
So I'm glad to have two doctors here agree, and
that's all I wanted. I mean, I will say this
cocady of mycosis is valley fever, and we like, you know,
she just mentioned it's we see it here in California.
It's the reason why we used to say, if you're

(01:34:20):
driving it down Central Valley, California, down the Eye five,
you should roll up your window and and not breathe
in the air because there's a possibility of getting it
from that so o way they say that, well they
I don't think they do so much anymore. There's a
whole number of reasons why you don't want to be breathing. Yeah,
there's a lot of cow farms out there too. It
gets a little bit nasty out there in the I five.

(01:34:41):
But but I mean, it's what is an endemic thing.
It's like, if they don't want to be exposed to it,
stay out of that area. Yeah. Yeah, but You're not
going to get it from other people. That's the kicker.
It's not spread from people. It is very common to
a tribute effect your diseases that come from conflict to
you'll enemy, right. It's like if you look at like

(01:35:02):
the nineteen eighteen pandemic flu, right, and all the different
things that people call that flu and the people to
whom they attributed it, like, you can see that we've
been doing that for more than one hundred years. It's
it's part of the process of dehumanizing people who you're
trying to kill. It happened with COVID too, No, it's yeah, yeah,
I mean, yeah, that was a whole different situation. I

(01:35:22):
guess humans just don't learn. I suppose so I wonder Saskia,
like we obviously this is a terrible situation, and it's

(01:35:43):
one that's like super easy to feel very disempowered with
because you know, as much as you march around and
do things, it doesn't seem to be stopping. There is
there anything that like people can do advocate for, like
take action on, that could make this slightly less bad.
I mean, a ceasefire, I encourage people to donate to

(01:36:04):
unisf and obviously you know, MSF, a lot of the
wonderful organizations doing work there, and probably my my biggest
one right now, especially since we're around the holidays and
people are spending a lot of time with family and
likely getting into some heavy conversations around the dinner tables.
Make sure you're well informed and you're not spreading misinformation
and disinformation online because that's been a huge aspect of this.

(01:36:28):
You know, we saw with the humanitarian crisis in Ukraine.
You know, Russia took direct action to spread misinformation and
disinformation and we're struggling with that in the United States
right now with this. So I encourage people to stay
informed of this, to really utilize good resources and not
pull things from social media. If you're going to share something,

(01:36:51):
you know, do so from an accurate source. I really,
you know, the who un have been really good at
doing continuous updates and sharing that information. Human Rights Watch
at all of the above, and on top of again,
donating and really being an advocate for a ceasefire to
me is the biggest thing because also reminding people, hey,

(01:37:15):
this is currently a localized crisis, but infectious diseases and
humanitarian crisis crises, excuse me, rarely stay that way. I
would also plug the Palestinian Medical Relief Society the PMRS.
They're the on the ground people. They've been there since
nineteen seventy nine. They are founded by Palestinian doctors. It's

(01:37:36):
mostly a Palestinian run and they're doing I think, really
good work down there as best they can. And there
where actually the who gets most of their information or
a lot of it at least it's coming from their
updates from the PMRS people on the ground, So that's
another local source to look at if people are interested
in getting involved. I think you got you sure to

(01:38:00):
wrap it up. Yet, I was just thinking how unfortunate
it is that people don't care enough. So you have
to be like, it's not only going to stay localized,
Like it's not just that probably, you know what I mean.
I hate that we have to go there because, especially
after going through a pandemic yourself, if that is still
not enough for you to have any kind of empathy,

(01:38:20):
that's that's just insane to me. That's uh. The one
consistent thing I've seen is a lot of people say, oh,
this conflict is you know, very There's a lot of history,
and I don't really want to get involved and yeah,
and you know, to us, I do understand that there
is a long, complicated history that not a lot of
people are well informed of. But inform yourself. And that

(01:38:43):
doesn't mean you can't have empathy. You can you know,
denounce the moss and also denounce anti Semitism. Yeah, these
things are not really intrusive. And it's it's impressive to
me that we're still after you know, it's not even
been three months and we've lost twenty thousand people that
we know of a mess. We're seeing journalists killed left
and right as well. It's it's impressive to me that

(01:39:05):
people are still saying, oh, I don't I don't really
want to comment on that, or you know, it's it's
it's very messy in the medical I'm sorry, James. In
the medical world, I've seen doctors complain about more about
the word provider and how it's used. Then the fact
that three hundred medical professionals have been killed, some of

(01:39:27):
them while doing their duty in the hospital. Like, that's
a part that kind of surprised me from a medical perspective.
And you know, I think I mentioned it to you before.
I'm grateful for coming on your show, because I think
a lot of the overlap between doctors who listen to
our show and they listen to yours, and they're very
vocal and they're online, and they are the ones who

(01:39:49):
are really giving me hope in these situations because and
there's a lot of people in medicine and this is
a medical issue. I mean, I'm not even talking about
any of the history. That's nothing. That's not what I'm on.
What it's important to me right now, it's about this
healthcare crisis that is worsening and progressively worsening, and it
is it is a bit of a bummer that I'm

(01:40:09):
not seeing a little bit more interest in addressing it. Yeah,
I would hope. I would say that most people, like
insider outside of medical community could maybe agree that like
the correct number of hospitals to bomb is zero hospitals
and that but that, yeah, there isn't a reason why
you bomb a hospitalities, shouldn't Anthony Blincoln said like a

(01:40:31):
year or about Ukraine and Russia. Russia bombed hospitals and schools.
There's no way that's normal. And then like there's a
video where it's like cross sectioning into like right now,
how He's like, we're always going to support Israel. So
it's like, no, it's not normal. Bombing hospitals and schools
is never normal or okay. It's crazy that Israel went
from being like we would never bomb a hospital to

(01:40:52):
bombing dozens of them and nothing happening. Yeah, but I like, yeah,
I guess just felt like lick completion. Again, it's not
okay when Turkey bombs hospitals in Northeast area either, Like
I was there when they bomb one they bombed another one.
Since it's not okay when the Hunter and mean mail

(01:41:12):
bomb's hospitals and at this one hospital left standing in
the whole of Corny State right now, and like this
is happening there too, when we're not like not caring
about those people because this is a topic of the
day or whatever. Like it's also not okay to use
white phosphorus on armed civilians across the board were Yeah,

(01:41:34):
like in general, it's horrific, and I just I think
it's it's you know, and there was there were a
couple of reports and I think that there's still data
coming out about it that bodies had organs stolen from them. Yeah,
which is just horrific, and yeah, it doesn't really practice
what Israel has done for a while though. Israel's uh,

(01:41:54):
they said they stopped it and then they're continuing to
do it. But it's like they're notorious for bringing to
returning bodies that have been like autopsyed or having all
their organs removed. And I want to just point out
that for Muslim burials, the body is like it's very
important that the body is whole, and the same for
Jewish burials. But it's just a really disgusting just point

(01:42:17):
blank and then also really disrespectful. But yeah, sorry interrupted, No, no,
I mean it's and again, you know, I think there's
still a lot of information coming out about that and
how many that court, et cetera, because I, like I
mentioned before, I think information right now is really challenging.
Accurate information, of course, is exceedingly difficult, so I'm always
very careful, you know what we say. But to me,

(01:42:41):
you know, the Washington Post just released a really good
article and in death analysis of the attacks on the
Al Shifa hospital, because that's the biggest hospital in Gaza,
and for a while, you know, IDF was saying, well,
this is where Hamas has been operating they have a
tunnel networks, and there was there was a good breakdown
of why this is inaccurate and at the end of
the day, now there's no acceptable reason to bomb a hospital,

(01:43:05):
and drawing attention to the fact that this was occurring
and misinformation is being shared is huge. So I'm hopeful
that you know and very grateful to be on this
podcast and talk with you all because the more information
we can communicate about this situation, but also about the
fact that there are much larger consequences of this from
just even an infectious disease perspective is so critical because

(01:43:27):
I don't think people realize that, and again they disassociate
when they hear it's the conflict, it's a result of conflicts.
It is so much larger than that. It will you know,
we will see it in the States. We will see
the ramifications of this and if nothing else again coming
out of COVID, I'd like to think that we realize
that we are part of a much larger, interconnected world

(01:43:48):
and infectious diseases are simply a plane flight away. Yeah, yeah,
very true. Thank you both so much for your brains
and your knowledge of for coming on the show, it's uh,
thanks for having us. Yeah, you so much for having us,
of course, and before we go, i'd like to ask

(01:44:10):
you if you have anything you'd like to plug like
white people can find you good. You've mentioned a couple
of good resources, but other information resources that kind of
thing that you'd like to share. So, in terms of
the resources, I am following a couple members of the PMRS.

(01:44:30):
They have a Twitter feed but it's not very active,
but the who gets a lot of the same information
and they do a good job of updating in terms
of where you could learn more. I just did an
episode on the healthcare crisis in Gaza on my podcast,
The House of Pod, which James has been on and stream.
I'm trying to get you to come on. So I'm down.

(01:44:53):
We're going to keep working on you and Saskia too.
I mean, you're all invinded. I'm recording this. I'm just
gonna release it on my podcast as well. And yeah,
so listen to us there. I'll be doing more episodes
on this topic as well in the in the coming months.
Cool perfect, I'm marrying all of those resources I really

(01:45:15):
been looking to. Of course, I'm the Public Health Parents,
So who you know Seth, Human Rights Watch and my
big go tos as you know, again as all the
sources we've already mentioned, and I really I want to
give a shout out to a colleague of mine, Jessica
Alti Rivera, who is really really wonderful in this space
and has been doing a lot of science communication on
her Instagram. I tend to be a little bit more

(01:45:36):
on the cesspool that is formally Twitter, but you know,
I'm I think there's some really wonderful people out there,
this entire group included, that are actively working to share
information but also how people can get engaged and involved.
So shout out to her and just all of the
hard work that a lot of key journalists are doing
in this space, because again, if you have no communication

(01:45:59):
out it's really hard to get accurate information. Well, thanks
guys for listening. Why are you laughing? James? Can I
wrap us out? Or is this too monotone of up?
Send it? No, that's the show again, Thanks again for
both of you being so outspoken. I think, especially reminding

(01:46:22):
everyone that it's actually not complicated, because it's it's also
like a medical issue. It's not exactly when you just
look at the numbers, look at body count, look at families.
That's I think what our main focus should be. And
I appreciate you both because I know it's a tricky
out there to be outspoken. So thank you, Thank you guys,

(01:46:43):
thanks so much. Welcome to it could happen here at
the show about the slow end of the world and
all the small little things that are kind of pushing

(01:47:04):
us that way. Isn't that exciting? New Year? Knew me?
Not not really. I'm kind of doing the same stuff,
mostly staring into the abyss and seeing what stares back.
Staring at the abyss with me today is Mia Wong. Hello,
thank you for joining me. Oh boy, the abyss is
is looking real choppy today, real abyssle. You could say,

(01:47:27):
the waves coming out of it are staring back at
you real hard. Yeah. Yeah, So we're gonna talk today
about anti semitism, So I guess content warning in case
you don't want to hear a whole bunch of anti
Semitic stuff. I'm not just gonna be repeating anti Semitic things.
It's just this is just the topic for the whole episode.

(01:47:49):
So yeah, the past few months there has been a
pretty dramatic rise in anti semitism, ranging from physical attacks, vandalism,
and lots of rhetoric. Now, there's a few as that
I think make this a little bit tricky to talk about,
which is why it's taken me a while to put
this together. Firstly, I want to avoid getting into like
oppression Olympics here, right, talking about one bad thing does

(01:48:12):
not negate many other bad things that are happening concurrently.
Having a discussion about a very troubling rise in antisemitism
and a state backed ethnic cleansing do not need to
be mutually exclusive topics of discussion. Right. We can say
both of these things are actually pretty bad. And today
we're going to be talking specifically about anti semitism. And

(01:48:34):
I think you know, this show has had a history
of reporting on anti fascist movements and attempts to stop
fascist entryism and promoting of anti semitism. So this topic
is well within our regular wheelhouse and there is a
decent bit to talk about. Now. The second thing that
makes this topic a little bit tricky is that some

(01:48:55):
of the big extremism research groups that typically do the
most cataloging of anti Semitic incidents have proven themselves to
be slightly unreliable on this topic for the past four months.
And that's not just my opinion, that's also the opinion
of current and former ADL employees who have been coming

(01:49:16):
out against Director Jonathan greenblatz leadership choices, particularly since the
October seventh Hamas attack. Now, due to the nature of
their job versus my job, ADL analysts have a lot
more dedicated time and resources to cataloging alleged anti Semitic incidents,
but under greenblatz direction, the whole of their data from

(01:49:38):
the past four months is heavily skewed to include anything
expressing anti Zionism as being included in their data about
anti semitism, and even anything deemed too sympathetic to Palestinians
as being a driver of anti Semitism. So that's the
kind of situation we have here with. You know, there's

(01:50:00):
many issues the ADL has had in the past, which
we may talked about in the future, but typically they've
done an okay job the past few years, specifically cataloging
anti semitism during the rise of the alt right. Their
data is often relatively reliable on this topic. Some of
their other data and other practices are very open to criticism.

(01:50:20):
But this is kind of one other factor that's gonna
make this a little bit tricky. Now, as like an example, right,
this is this is we can we can talk about
these things in abstract. I'm gonna talk about something from
Atlanta because this is something I have some experience in.
So on the ADL's big map of anti Semitic incidents
from October seventh to the present, if you zoom into Atlanta,

(01:50:40):
there's two incidents that are right next to each other.
One is a banner drop done by the Goiam Defense League,
which is a group of neo Nazis. Oh God. Basically,
they made some banners expressing pro Hitler statements alongside slogans
like free Palestine, and they put them up above a

(01:51:02):
really big road in Atlanta. Right, So this is pretty
standard neo Nazi anti Semitism using kind of anti Zionism
as this sort of mask But I mean Hitler very thid,
Yes exactly, that's not really it's not really masked because
you also have a Hitler banner. But like you know,

(01:51:23):
if someone only sees one banner, be like, oh, it's
a Palestine banner, but no, it's actually a Nazi banner.
So we have this incident logged. We also have another
incident blogged right beside it from a protest a few
days later, which was an Inner faith rally in support
of Palestine against the ongoing ethnic cleansing that's happening in

(01:51:44):
Gaza with thousands and thousands of people being killed. So
we have this banner drop and we have this rally,
and both of these things are labeled as an anti
Semitic incident. They're both like equal in the eyes of
this data, which just isn't true. I was, I was
at this rally. I did not hear anything anti Semitic

(01:52:05):
coming from the speakers. Many of the speakers, if not
the majority of the speakers, were Jewish. There were a
group of Jewish counter protesters who showed up who started
many fights, fights which were very quickly de escalated by
the people who were putting on the rally. There was
this one woman who was carrying an Israeli flag on
his flagpole who kept hitting people with it. So there

(01:52:27):
was a lot of there's a lot of things going
on at this rally, but this was not an anti
Semitic rally, And in fact, the Jewish counter protesters were
extremely vitriolic. They were expressing explicit desire for genocide of Palestinians,
like very very gross stuff. It was, it was really disgusting.
So both of these incidents, though, are seen as equal,

(01:52:49):
which just show that's just an easy example to kind
of show how this data isn't really reliable that the
ADL is putting together here. Now, I really don't feel
like it's my place to go through the eightyeals database
and decide what is and is not antisemitism, right, Like,
that's I don't have the time, nor the money normally

(01:53:09):
the authority to be like the arbiter of what is
and isn't anti semitic, Yeah, Garrison, Garrison turning into the
anti Semitism commissar. Yeah, that's that's not That's not me, right.
I have a background in anti fascist research. I have
a background in neo Nazia driven anti semitism, Right, these
are the things I usually specialize in. But still, this
is a this is a massive this is a massive field.

(01:53:31):
Antisemitism is a complicated topic. Rhetoric can be complicated, and
having not attended or reviewed every single rally or incident
in question, I'm simply not equipped to make informed judgments.
So for that reason, this episode I will focus mostly
on physical attacks, threats, and vandalism as opposed to the
much more murky waters of rhetoric, online rhetoric and you know,

(01:53:55):
just these these there's been probably thousands of rallies across
the United States. I've not been to everyone, I've not
watched every single speech, I've not heard every single offhand comment,
so I'm not going to deal with those. Instead, I'm
going to be focusing on physical like in like IRL
and things that have a very clear result of the action.

(01:54:17):
So this mostly attacks throughout vandalism. Anyway, moving on though,
I guess actually the one other thing about stats is
that when talking about this rise anti semitism, because there's
been a lot of articles from mainstream news outlets being like,
here's the rise antisemitism, and here's the stats, another thing
pointing towards why these stats are unreliable and the reason

(01:54:39):
why I'm not going to be using them largely is
because many of the stats included and these articles are
crime stats, and these crime stats are also proving to
be heavily unreliable. For example, the Metropolitan Police claimed that
there was a one thousand and three hundred and fifty
percent increase in anti Semitic hate crimes in London during

(01:54:59):
the first two two and a half weeks of October,
with two hundred and eighteen anti Semitic offenses in London
during that time period compared to only fifteen in twenty
twenty two. But included in these stats are incidents like
the police in London arresting a man for tearing down
some of those hostage posters. That's one of the hate

(01:55:19):
crimes that they include in this, and also the met
said that that's the Metropolitan Police said that chanting from
the river to the sea near Jewish people or near
Jewish buildings during a protest would be deemed unlawful. And
I think there is a debate to be had whether
if you're just protesting outside of a random Jewish building,
that's probably not great and that could be an indicator

(01:55:43):
of anti Semitism, but having that chant be deemed unlawful
for just being near other Jewish people, Like I said,
at the rally in Atlanta, there was a whole bunch
of Jewish counter protesters who came to start fights. So like,
you're going to be around Jewish people if you're a
march you're marching around, or if you're outside in Israeli
embassy that's a that's an it M I opinion, a

(01:56:04):
very valid target for protest that would be considered a
Jewish building. So all of these stats are heavily heavily
skewed by these by by these sorts of reasons for
how how how the met is, including things as being
anti Semitic hate crimes. Yeah, and I mean like this,
like if you just think about what the rationale is
there for a second, Like is a group of anti

(01:56:26):
Sionist Jews chanting from the river to the sea around
themselves a hate crime? Exactly rightight? Like this is nonsense?
Like so, and also you know what I mean. And
also like this is the British police, Like those are
the most anti Semitic motherfuckers this side of like the
Ukrainian neo Nazis or something. And like I do not
doubt there was an actual increase of anti Semitic attacks

(01:56:49):
bendless hate speech. That that is what we're talking about
in this episode. We will be getting into many incidents,
but it is difficult to pin down some of what
these really big stats actually represent because if tearing down
one of those silly Hamas wanted posters is being labeled
a hate crime on the same level as drawing a
swastika on a synagogue. That data is basically useless, and

(01:57:13):
now I think it's also worth mentioning, just very very briefly,
the Metropolitan Police also recorded a one hundred and forty
percent increase in Islamophobic incidents during those first two and
a half weeks of October's that's forty two incidents in
twenty twenty two compared to one hundred and three incidents
in twenty twenty three. And while that percentage is lower
than the anti Semitic stat it also indicates how much

(01:57:34):
more common Islamophobia in London is because the regular amount
of reported incidents from last year is so much higher
than the regular reported amount of anti Semitic incidents. Like
having forty two incidents per like two and a half weeks,
be the normal stat is not great and maybe someone
should look into why British people are so islamophobic. I

(01:57:58):
mean that there's that that's a whole episode in and
of itself. Is Amophobia in the UK is a massive,
massive problem. But just as a comparison, I thought I
might as well say that we will get to Honkah next.
But it has already been thirteen minutes of me talking
about stats and giving disclaivers, so that means it's time

(01:58:20):
for an ad break. I'm not going to do a
silly ad transition. Just listen to the ads. All right,
we are back, since we just finally escaped the holiday season,

(01:58:40):
Let's begin by talking about Honkkah. Public manoras, often without
any extra like iconography tying them to the state of Israel,
were a frequent target of vandalism and anti Semitic messaging.
During the months of December, a far right member of
parliament in Poland used a fire extinguisher to blow at
the candles on a minora in the lobby of parliam
A public menora in London had its light bulbs smashed

(01:59:03):
with a free Palestine sticker placed onto the front, and
then days later it was found toppled over and left
in pieces. There's many of these incidents. I'm just gonna
name a few more, just because at a certain point
it kind of becomes redundant. But I think these things
are worth talking about. An eleven foot, three hundred and
fifty pound menora next to Lake Mari in Oakland was

(01:59:25):
cut up and destroyed in mid December, with pieces being
thrown into the nearby lake. A message was graffitied that
led We're gonna find you. You're on alert. It was
also reported that there was graffiti left nearby that read
free Palestine in Arabic. But I can't confirm that. The

(01:59:45):
picture they have online does not match what free Palestine
in airboth looks like. But I'm not an expert on Arabic,
so i just can't confirm that, but that is being
reported in local Jewish newspapers. Manora sand sculpture commissioned in
Palm Beach was destroyed and left defaced with a swastika
outside of synagogue in a suburb of Washington, d C.
A Manora was toppled over on the eve of Honka,

(02:00:06):
and two manoras were vandalized and damaged in Brooklyn in
early December by masked individuals. So one other similar incident
I will talk about, which is kind of interesting, is
that there was this pro Palestine protest at Yale where
a one of the protesters climbed up onto this massive
I don't know how tall it was, but it was huge.

(02:00:27):
They had to climb up pretty high on this big
public menora and placed a Palestinian flag kind of around
one of the little arms on the manora. But very quickly,
like within seconds of this happening, other pro Palestine protesters,
noticing this is kind of disrespectful, asked this person to
take it down, like like almost almost immediately. This is

(02:00:47):
a very a very quick exchange, and this kind of
sparked some people talking about, you know, is it okay
to put Palestinian flags on manora? Is it okay to
vanelize manoras? Which the answer is no, The answer you
shouldn't vandalize a manora. That's generally not great. But you know,

(02:01:07):
people were saying and specifically pointing towards like pictures of
IDF soldiers who've been taking territory in Gaza, who've been
putting up manoras in Gaza, or like the Israeli military
doing these photo ops with big manoras in different parts
of gazas being like, hey, when there's this active ethnic
cleansing going on and soldiers are using this religious iconography

(02:01:30):
and it's being associated directly with this, with this ongoing
ethnic genocide, how can you blame people who are going
to be treating this symbol with hostility, and I think
there's a few problems with this idea. I'm going to
quote from this Jewish artist who goes by Underscore a Nunnery,
who I think phrased this really well quote. Jewish symbols

(02:01:51):
shouldn't be associated with Zionism or ceded to them just
because Zionists abuse them. If the manora were put up
by Zionists, as some explicit the Zionist display, then putting
up a Palestadian flag would be an active resistance. If
it's not, then it's just cementing the Zionist conflation and
exploitation of Jewish identity. There are more non Jewish Zionists

(02:02:13):
than there are Jews, unquote. And this gets at a
point which I think is really important when you're talking
about anti Zionist activism. Attacking symbols of Jewish culture in
the name of anti Zionism only strengthens the cause of
Zionism by affirming the conflation of Judaism and Zionism, or
Judaism and the State of Israel. This conflation helps Zionists

(02:02:37):
shield their actions by abusing the Jewish identity and making
these two things be more like intersectional. So I think
that is one a strategic reason for ya this is
a bad idea, and two it's maybe slightly anti Semitic.
So that is my little holiday section just because I
saw a whole bunch of stuff around these manoras and

(02:02:59):
I didn't feel about it. Yeah, like this sucks, like
please don't do this. And I've seen some people like
also using the comparison of like would you would you
also criticize indigenous people in America for graffitiing or taking
down images of like Christian iconography and like, No, because

(02:03:21):
the oppression faced by Christians and the oppression faced by
Jewish people are two different things. Like these are these
are actually historically these are very different things. So no,
these things actually cannot be compared in my opinion. But
now I'm going to talk about some international incidents because
I think we have a tendency to overfocus on America
when there's a whole bunch of other stuff happening and

(02:03:43):
you know, the rest of the world. Back in October,
a historic synagogue in Tunisia was burned down by a
mob of hundreds of people in response to reports that
in Israeli airstrike hit a hospital in Gaza. This sucks.
I shouldn't have to explain why burning down a historical
synagogue is antisemitic because you don't like something the state

(02:04:06):
of Israel did. That's just that. Just isn't that just
isn't like, that's just not se shit like come on. Yeah.
So a month later in November, someone posted the video
online of themselves pouring fuel and setting fire to the
only synagogue in Armenia. The entrance was damaged in the

(02:04:26):
arsen attack, but no one was hurt. The only synagogue
in Vortswaft, Poland. Sorry I pride butchered that, but it
is a hard word, but the only synagogue in this
town of Poland to survive the Holocaust was defaced with
graffiti that read quote Israel criminals and murderers unquote and
then like a week I guess. Earlier that week a

(02:04:47):
group of teenagers also destroyed a an aura in this
same town. In mid October, Maltov cocktails were thrown at
a synagogue in Berlin after Hanukkah. In Belgium, a Jewish
materi was vandalized with swastikas on gravestones in late no
In In late November, a mult have cocktail was thrown

(02:05:07):
at a Jewish community center in Montreal. Earlier that month,
shots were fired at two different Jewish schools in Montreal
in three different incidents, and four Holocaust memorials in Germany
were vandalized with a mix of antisemitic and anti Zionist messages.
So again, like when I was looking at these ones

(02:05:27):
once in Germany, the actual content of about half of
these messages were not anti Semitic. But the act of
doing this at a at a at a Holocaust memorial
just is like it it it gives me the ick.
And there's arguments could be made that this does actually
play into antisemitic troops, like you're what, You're blaming dead

(02:05:49):
Jewish people for the actions of the current state of Israel.
Like that's it's it just And also half half of
these messages left at these at these Holocausts were also
just blatantly at anti Semitic, like very clearly like Nazi
style stuff. I don't have time to go over all
of the incidents across the Europe. There is a great

(02:06:10):
deal many. There's many, many, many that I've not mentioned.
These are just a few. Like I said, I'm focusing
on like vandalism, very very clear cut stuff, people doing
arson attacks, right, it's just very very basic stuff. This
stuff in Montreal not great, Montreal, Canada, get your shit together.
Although unfortunately not surprising but still upsetting is Jews being

(02:06:31):
barred from shops across Turkey. And oh there's a whole
a whole bunch of very gross government government sponsored anti
semitism across Turkey campaigns to prohibit the sale of land
to Jewish people. A lot of a lot of bad
stuff in Turkey. But that's not incredibly surprising. Yeah, I
mean it's aired Wan, Like, yeah, he fucking sucks ass

(02:06:52):
and he oh yeah. Airedwan is a man who has
personally ordered children to be burned alive with firebombs, so
you know this is not out of character for him. Yeah,
and I guess, uh finally this this one one other
thing about Honkah is that so last month, right after
the end of Honkah, bomb threats were sent out en

(02:07:13):
mass to more than four hundred Jewish Jewish centers and
synagogues across the United States. This was most likely orchestrated
by the same kind of small number of individuals. All
of the messages were very similar. None of these were
incredibly credible, but it still sparked a whole bunch of
bomb sweeps and concerned because when Jewish synagogues get bomb threats,

(02:07:34):
that's not an empty threat either, Like this is like
there is historical precedent. Yeah. Well, and I also like
I think, I think the everything that's important about this
too is like this, this is you know, this is
like one of the things is the culmination of everything
that Wright's been doing for the last like eight years
has been the development of like this quadre of people
who do bomb threats, calling in bomb threats as a tactics. Yes, no,

(02:07:58):
there's the concerted effort form threats at hospitals that provide
transgender care, abortion clinics. There was a string of weirdly
organized bomb threats against schools about a year or two ago.
But I think I think Robert did an episode on
yeah now and now we're here at you know, we're
at bomb threats you can synagogues, which is terrifying. According

(02:08:20):
to the Secure Community Network, a nonprofit security organization that
tracks threats made against Jewish communities, bomb threats and swatting incidents,
basically freight trying to get a swat team to show
up somewhere because you lied about there being like an
ongoing crime or something. But bomb threats and swatting incidents
targeted against Jewish centers saw over a five hundred percent

(02:08:41):
increase in twenty twenty three compared to the previous year,
which I have no reason to believe is incorrect. So
on that note, I know, I don't really think we
could have a bomb threat segue to adds, I really
don't really don't know. Don't do bomb, don't do bomb
threat specypically, this is what I got. Yeah, typically, anyway,

(02:09:05):
do you know what else is to bomb these ads? Okay, fine,
all right, we are back. Maybe the worst air transition
we've ever done. That's not true, That is definitely not true. Yeah, okay, okay,

(02:09:27):
you're right. Okay. So during this last section, I'm gonna
talk a little bit more about data aggregation. So, like
I said previously in this episode, due to the nature
of what my job is and the nature of what
an ADL analyst's job is, they just have a lot
more time to dedicate towards specifically logging anti Semitic incidents.

(02:09:49):
So I did look through their data set and I've
made some extrapolations based on some of the findings and
some of the open source data that they have regarding
specific in so on that note, the ADL has logged
around one thousand and one hundred anti Semitic incidents since
October seventh, not related to protest rallies. So this is

(02:10:12):
specifically all the incidents that are not related to these
big pro Palestinian Interfaith many Jewish led rallies. Now I'm
not saying that nothing anti Semitic has not happened at
any of those rallies, but these rallies were logged simply
as quote anti Israel rallies which featured over anti Semitism,

(02:10:33):
anti Zionism, and or expressions of support for terror. So
crammed in the middle of that explanation is just anti Zionism.
So that is one thing they are just counting as
being enough to be logged as an anti Semitic incident.
So again, I'm not going through the over like one

(02:10:55):
thousand rallies that they have logged here just because I
don't have the time and I don't feel like it.
But yes, just for full transparency, that is the information.
I'm not going to be looking at instead, I'm looking
at these one thousand and one hundred other incidents not
related to these protests. So these one thy one hundred
harassment and vandalism incidents include things from anti Zionist slash,

(02:11:18):
anti Israel stickers and graffiti being left at universities and synagogues,
the latter which I believe is in poor taste, but
also you know swastikas being painted on synagogues, extremely anti
Semitic messages being left at Jewish centers, and street harassment
targeting visibly Jewish people, as well as just overt to
neo Nazi activity under the banner of free Palestine. Now,

(02:11:42):
of these over one thousand and one hundred incidents, I'd
say that a very small minority of them are principled
anti Zionist activism, which has been mislabeled. Most of the
data in these one thousand incidents is just blatant anti semitism,
I an specifically directed to words, just regular Jewish people,
people writing kill Jews and bathroom stalls, threats being sent

(02:12:05):
to Jewish people mentioning Hitler or Hermas, a lot of
just extremely gross stuff like there's too many, There's too many,
Just like threats that mentioned the word Jews that I
just can't even read them all, nor do I want to,
because it's just gross. Like there is a truly upsetting number.
Which is why I wanted to make this episode in

(02:12:25):
the first place, is because I've been seeing this pretty
big rise of anti Semitism. Other people have as well,
and I felt like this wasn't probably being as talked
about as much as it should be among the anti
fascist left, because you know, everyone's focusing on this ethnic
cleansing that's happening, because that is very bad. But meanwhile,
there's this other massive problem that if you care about

(02:12:46):
fascist entryism, if you care about anti Semitic behavior and
actions being either allowed to happen in leftist spaces or
just happening in general, Like a lot of the stuff
is being done by fascists who are not who are
not you know, going to a pro Palestine rally because
they believe in anti imperialism. But there's just a lot
of this stuff happening, which is why I think it

(02:13:07):
is need needing to be talked about. Now. There are
a number of instances that are logged in these one thousand,
one hundred incidents here, such as you know, for I'm
just gonna I'm gonna pull from actual examples. But also
this is kind of generalizing because this was also reflecting
a small trend things like pro Palestine phrases being yelled
at random Jewish people on the street, having like Antizionist

(02:13:31):
stickers being poorly placed in different locations like at a
Jewish cemetery, vandalizing non political Jewish owned businesses with anti
Zionist phrases, even like breaking the windows of random Jewish
owned businesses with no ties to Israel or the IDF
and leaving anti Zionist phrases or pro Palestine phrases graffitied

(02:13:53):
next to these broken windows. Now, while the content of
what's being actually said in these incidents may not be
like anti Semitic in nature by itself, right, like just
having very basic anti Sionist phrases being graffeited that may
not be anti Semitic itself, like that combination of words.

(02:14:15):
This sort of activity, though, plays into a classic anti
Semitic kind of trope, as if every like random Jewish
person is somehow in part responsible for the actions of Israel,
and it also conflates Jewish identity with Zionism, which is
the problem that we were talking about before when we
started this episode, right when I was talking about the

(02:14:38):
stuff with Hanuka just a few hours ago as of
time of recording, the corvalis anti fascist branch. I guess, yeah, yeah,
I think they're a member of Torch put out this
thread about how the GDL, the Going Defense League. We
talked about them previously in this episode. They're a big
group of organized neo Nazis that spread a lot of

(02:14:59):
anti Semitic stuff, How they hijacked a city council meeting
to spread anti Semitic stuff during a discussion of a
during a discussion about a ceasefire resolution. And I think
they kind of ended their thread by talking about how
it is extremely important to call out the conflation of

(02:15:22):
the Jewish people with the genocidal actions of the State
of Israel and assertions that the media is controlled by
Jews or that regular Jews have some kind of say
in everything that's happening. Right, it gets in this kind
of like cabalish notion. Now back to kind of the
data that I was talking about, these sorts of incidents

(02:15:43):
are vastly, vastly outweighed by the number of just overt
jew hatred, invoking of anti Semitic conspiracy theories, calling for
the death of Jews, and swastikas. But I still think
it's extremely important to mention because the targeting of random
Jewish people in business is itself that is a form
of anti Semitism, and this activity helps to reinforce the

(02:16:05):
abuse of the Jewish identity by inextricately linking it to Zionism,
which only strengthens the Zionist ideology. So that's that's that's
my little mini rant about the way we've been seeing
some of these things play out. Now, many of these
over a thousand incidents logged use anti Zionism as a
sort of cover for just spreading anti Semitism, particularly from

(02:16:29):
known white supremacist and neo Nazi groups. The GDL is
a good example. There's also groups like White Lives Matter
and a number of others that I could name that
when you're looking through the ADL's data on these one
thousand or so incidents, a large large amount of them
are done by the Goam Defense League, the GDL, And

(02:16:50):
this is this is this is a strategic thing for them,
right They're seeing the kind of moment that people are
in culturally, the way people are talking about Israel, and
if they can find a way to squeeze in their
neo Nazi talking points kind of under this very very
thin Palestine kind of veneer, that's great for them. If

(02:17:13):
they can get people to start almost mindlessly repeating their
style of talking points, that's great for them. Right, it
makes sense why they're putting so much time and dedication
to this, because they're trying to use this moment and
abuse the thousands of people who might be more susceptible
to this right now to spread their ideology and to

(02:17:34):
do and to do entryism like this is a part
of what their tactic is. So while it's true that
many of these incidents do come from explicitly Nazi groups,
there's also just a really upsettingly and shockingly large number
of them that come from students, students from middle school
to college who are ostensibly anti Israel but are going

(02:17:57):
about it via targeting randomish people and spreading anti Semitism,
whether that's intended or not. But a lot of the
talking points are just anti Semitic talking points. Now, I
can't I'm not in the heads of anybody I'm not
talking to the twelve year old in some middle school
in Colorado who's leaving anti Semitic messages in a bathroom stall,

(02:18:17):
but the effect is kind of the same. And just
the sheer number of specifically like like like middle school,
junior high, high school, instance, that are logged among this
thousand was just incredibly incredibly distressing. Yeah, And I I mean,
I think I think a lot of what's going on

(02:18:38):
here is that, like the US is a culturally Christian society,
right like it has like of the developed countries, the
US is like one of the most Christian and American Christianity.
And this is true of like in different ways of

(02:19:01):
like just basically all of the major Christian de nominations
are enormously anti Semitic, like and there are any Seminican
theory in different in different in weird ways. Like I mean,
I spent some time recently for something else, like reading
about like this argument between like the Evangelicals who are like,
we need to we need to have all the Jews
go back to Israel so that we can bring about

(02:19:22):
the Second Coming. And they were gonna fight with the
the hard line like right wing Lutherans and the hard,
hardline right wing Lutherans are like, what the fuck do
you mean? Like no, like the Holy Land belongs to us,
not the Jews. What the fuck are you guys doing? Right,
It's like, this is the baseline of American society, right,
it's unbelievably anti Semitic in ways that you know, are

(02:19:44):
are just sort of passed down through like like culture
are culturally received and absorbed in ways that people don't
like see or understand or think about, because it's just
it's it's the wall, it's the water that American that
you know, you swim in in American culture in this
or it's like like this hegemonic Christian society, and that

(02:20:05):
means that like even people with like at least in
their heads, good intentions get caught up in this shit.
It's funning, yeah, and bad. And there's also at the
same time, a very concerned effort to slide in the
anti Jewish extremism, anti Semitic rhetoric, to slide that in
sometimes covertly, sometimes not into lots of mainstream discourse and

(02:20:29):
exchanges and social media specifically, TikTok has been really has
been really bad at this, which is where a lot
of young people spend probably the majority of their day
if they're going to be looking at their phone, and
it's it's I said, I didn't want to get into
like social media rhetoric. But also just like as someone
who spent a lot of time on four chan and
eight chan looking specifically at Nazis, the way Twitter currently

(02:20:50):
works is like it is just four chan eight chan
level stuff pretty commonly, Like if I look at the
quote tweets of any of almost any tweet made by
a Jewish person, there is just some of the most atrocious,
unmoderated anti semitism that I've seen on a platform like Twitter,

(02:21:11):
Like this is this is really like eight chan level stuff,
I think, And this isn't intentional to slide this stuff
in to make it look normalized. The ADL reported a
nearly one thousand percent increase in the daily average of
violent messages mentioning Jews and Israel in a white supremacist
and right wing extremist channels on Telegram in the days

(02:21:32):
following the October seventh massacre. So this is something that
is specifically being done in far right spaces. I'm going
to quote again from this corbalis against fascism. The struggle
for the liberation of Palestine is one of the most
pressing of our time. It's imperative that we shut down
anti Semitic attempts to co op that struggle immediately. Which

(02:21:55):
if you care about the liberation of Palestine and palestadining
and peep, well, this is something you also need to
be concerned about, because these two things are linked. There's
twenty seven assaults have been reported. Around eight of these
assaults are stemming from fights which broke out at protest rallies.
I'm not going to get into those ones as much

(02:22:16):
because that can be tricky because I've seen Zionists start
fights like right next to me before and then claim
a victimhood like no, you're the one that started that.
You swung a flagpole at these people, and then they
de escalated very quickly. And I'm sure there's incidents of
the reverse happening. But a majority of these assaults that

(02:22:39):
have been reported are very clear cut anti Semitic attacks
targeted against Jewish people, some of which are quite frightening
to read about. There's been a large number of a
vehicle attacks. There was one incident of someone breaking into
a Jewish family's home and assaulting people inside their own home.
Then also there's been a number of incidents of just

(02:23:00):
assaulting people as they leave synagogues. I've seen very off
start fights with people right next to that is That
is kind of what I had to say about this
rise in anti Semitism, because I saw this being a
major problem that was being not talked about as much
as it should be. Because this is it is higher

(02:23:21):
than what we've seen in years, not to even mention
the rise in Islamophobia, which is also a massive rise
is in Islamophobia has been happening the past four months,
including resulting in murders. Right just in the four weeks
after October seventh, the Council on American Islamic Relations logged
an unprecedented number of Islamophobic incidents. The research and advocacy

(02:23:44):
director Corey Saylor said in the statement, quote, both Islamophobia
and anti Arab racism are out of control in ways
we have not seen in almost ten years. The one thousand,
two hundred and eighty three complaints we have received over
the past month represent a two hundred and sixteen percent
increase in requests for help and reports of bias the
islamophobic and anti Palestinian rhetoric that have been used to

(02:24:05):
justify both violence against Palestinians and Gaza and silence supporters
of Palestinian human rights here in America have contributed to
this unprecedented surge in bigotry. It's just been bad the
past four months. Yeah, it's just things have been bad.
There's been murders, there's been assaults. It's it's it's it's

(02:24:25):
it's it's horrible. And I think both of these things
are things that need to be need to be interrogated more,
the islamophobic incidents as well as anti Semitic incidents. So
that's what I wanted to to talk about as I
have been slowly slowly logging more synagogue attacks, more death threats,
all of these sorts of stuff. So yeah, that's kind

(02:24:47):
of all I have to say, uh today, Yeah, it's
it's reel bad. I don't know, I mean, it's that
out there. I mean, if you care about this ruggle
of deliberation of Palestine and the people in Palestine, you
need to if you see, if you see anything that

(02:25:08):
plays into these sorts of antisemitic tropes that we've talked
about blaming just random Jewish people for what's going on,
Attacking random Jewish owned businesses, without any ties to the IDF,
without any ties to the State of Israel, just all
of this stuff. It needs to be called out because
this actually, this sort of thing only strengthens the ideology

(02:25:31):
of Zionism. So if you call yourself an anti Zionist,
it is your imperative duty to be on the watch
for this sort of thing and stop it if you
see it. That's kind of the thesis at the end
of this. All right, Well, without further ado, I think

(02:25:52):
we will end this episode. Stay safe out there, everybody.
Hopefully this new year won't be complete chaos for all
of us. Hey, we'll be back Monday with more episodes
every week from now until the heat death of the universe.
It Could Happen here as a production of cool Zone Media.
For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website

(02:26:14):
coolzonemedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can
find sources for It Could Happen Here, updated monthly at
coolzonemedia dot com slash sources. Thanks for listening.

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