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January 16, 2024 70 mins
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Also media, ah, welcome back everybody to behind the bastards
in a fresh, bright new year. Twenty twenty four took
me a second to remember which year it was, but
I'm sure it's going to be a good one, as

(00:21):
long as there's nothing like a presidential election to cause
chaos and horror across the land. Anyway, I'm just going
to continue not having read the news for the last
seven years. And welcome to the podcast our guest, Jamie Loftus.
Welcome to the show, Jamie, thank you for having me back.
Twenty twenty four is our year. I think I feel

(00:44):
really optimistic. I've been enjoying everyone's in and out lists.
I don't know what they're talking about most of the time.
A lot of the things that people want in I
feel maybe signs of permanent brain damage for the last
no care. Yeah, yeah, but it's like with the internet.

(01:05):
This year is like that moment when you know that,
like when you accept because you've hit thirty that like
certain physical problems you've dealt with your whole life, like, well,
that's just one's never going to get better, right, Like
my back's never going to work the same way again.
The Exuma's not clearing up like something like that. That's
that's how we are. That's how I feel about social
media and what it's done to people's brains in twenty

(01:27):
twenty four. Like, yeah, it's permanent. We're good. There's certain
a whole generation of adults that will never quite be
able to you know, their critical reading skills were just
like kind of demolished, and that won't be a problem
for anybody. I feel optimistic. I feel like it's a
big it's going to be a big, awesome year this
time next year. I'm honestly trying to savor the beginning

(01:51):
of twenty twenty four because it's going to be so bad.
Oh yeah, No, I'm just like, this is as good
as it's going to get. I'm going to share is
down hill folks. Yeah, ah, good times. Well, you know
what's not a good time. Whatever we're about to talk
about for three hours, I'm assuming, Yeah, a sex cult,

(02:11):
a child sex cult. Maybe probably not actually, but the
story of why probably not and what they probably were
is still an interesting story of some people being real
pieces of shit. Huh uh huh uh huh uh huh. Yeah, exciting, Jamie,
have you ever heard of the Finders. No, I haven't. Okay, okay,

(02:33):
this is a big one. This is a heavy hitter cult.
So this is the cult that is one of the
origins of the QAnon conspiracy theory. The thirty thousand feet
version of the story before we dig into it, is
that in the late nineteen eighties, during the height of
the Satanic Panic, a couple of dudes and some little
kids in a van got called in by a busy

(02:56):
body neighbor in Tallahassee, Florida, because she thought the kids
looked dirty and that they were probably devil worshipers. And
the kids were indeed dirty, and the men, only one
of whom was a father to only one of the kids,
were members of a group called the Finders that is
either a CIA spying operation or just a bunch of

(03:16):
weirdos playing games in a house they rented. Impossible to say,
it's a little beside the point, but I am just
like consistently like, Wow, the nosy neighbor is never going
to get it right in terms of what the real
alem is Like, Oh, it's actually probably uh, save this God.

(03:37):
The Satanic's Panic sins are are bottomless. But yeah, interesting. Interesting,
So I have taken that logic, Jamie in my own life,
and so I will do nothing at all if I
hear anything happening in my neighbor's house. You know, if
there's screams and bangs in the night, I don't call
the police because I don't want to be part of
the problem. And sure have I woken up next to
a lot of like lines of police tape and house

(04:00):
with blood on the front door and shattered windows. Of course,
of course that's gonna happen when you refuse to take
an interest in your neighbors. But I will not continue
the cycle of violence. I would just ask that you
stop sending me selfies of these crime scenes because it's
been making my life really complicated. Well, Jamie, you just

(04:21):
never have an alibi for where you were when it happens.
That's one of the fun things about you. It's because
I don't leave my house. There's no witnesses. Yeah, that's
what I told the FBI. There's no witnesses, none at
all to where Jamie was on the night those people
were killed. Those people were killed with the hammer that
Jamie had purchased earlier that day. It was bedazzled and everything,

(04:42):
it was damning. It was damning what happened to me.
I was set up. I already this story is, you know,
starting horrifically, and it also is feels like the beginning
of a series of unfortunate events novel or a well
meaning neighbor u and misses in a really horrific way,

(05:03):
because it's the reality of what's happening these kids. It's
not great, but I wouldn't call it horrific. It's like
maybe slightly above a normal level of child neglect for
the nineteen eighties, like not massively, maybe a bit higher
than average, but like if the things my gen x
like relatives bragged about when they were kids are true,

(05:26):
this was not. These kids were not much worse off
than a lot of kids in that period of time,
maybe a bit in terms of parental neglect, but it's
not a story of child molestation. However, it is absolutely
a story of child molestation because the Satanic panic is
again at its height, and everyone in America immediately assumes
these people are child trafficking children all over the world

(05:47):
for a network of shadowy at wealthy individuals, right, Like
that's what this becomes, this massive and it burns out
because we don't have the Internet. It burns out in
about a year, but people who are conspiracy kind of
minded individuals never forget it. And so a lot of
what is in this story has formed some of the

(06:07):
foundational lore for Q and On. And there absolutely is
some really shady shit going on here. It's just not
the Q and On side of things. But we will
be talking about our old friends, the CIA, So don't worry.
Oh good, I am, like, I mean, just right away,
it's like it sounds like, of course QAnon was sort
of glom onto a story like this, because it's like

(06:29):
taking something that there is a genuine cause for concern
and blowing it out into a global conspiracy instead of
like let's get these individual children some resources maybe, which yeah, okay, yeah,
even that's because again this is happening in Florida, So
even that's complex. Now, yeah, you ready to ready to begin?

(06:50):
Is that not beginning? Well we have begun. We already
have some dirty kids in a van. I assumed we
had started. Yeah, yeah, Well we're actually going to start
several decks aides earlier, many decades earlier, with Marion David Petty.
He's going to be the guy who starts this cult,
the Finders, and he was born in Culpeper, virgin I

(07:10):
A on December twelfth, nineteen twenty. Culpepper, at the time
was a somewhat sleepy town seventy miles from the capitol.
It was conservative and I would probably say dull. There
was very little in Petty's family background to suggest he
would become anything like what he winds up as his mother,
Virginia and his father David both have long lives. They

(07:32):
seem to have been like pretty comfortable, like middle class,
maybe upper middle class. The families largely German. Most of
their ancestors were carpenters, although Marian's grandpa's a grave digger. Nice,
probably good for your cardio. Yeah. As a little kid,
there were signs that Marian was peculiar and possessed of

(07:53):
a strange sort of charisma that made other kids want
to follow him. He organized a small gang of local
children to go grave robbing and an abandoned cemetery near Arlington. Yeah, oh,
they are stealing human remains very right out the bat.
Oh yeah, why remain? I thought they were stealing, Like,

(08:13):
what else do you steal? It? A grave? And when
I was a kid, I would think about stealing stuff
from gravesites sometimes because they would have toys just dead
little children. You are willing to steal a dead child's toys.
I do remember. I have a vivid memory of seeing
like a Cinderella doll and being like, she's not using it,

(08:35):
which is but not now, Jamie, you can't say these
sorts of things. But I'm like, just in the utilitarian sense,
I should care. Yeah, yeah, wow, okay, well no, they
are not stealing dolls. They are actually stealing bones from
the gravest. Keep that in. I want them. The grave

(08:58):
robbing is one of those things if an adult is
grave robbing, right, If you get an adult stealing people's
bones from a graveyard, that's immediately creepy. If there's a
little kid who's organizing his friends to steal bones, and
to me, that's kind of dope. I think that's kind
of charming. I'm kind of and honestly, if I am
a dead guy, I'm like, let them cook, Like what

(09:21):
are they up to from the great beyond? I'm kind
of like approving of this. I like it. I think
it's interesting and already it's like, I don't know, this
is the first time I'm hearing of this man ever.
But it's you know, a lot of weird kids come
up the lower middle class unexpectedly. It's a real danger.

(09:42):
Yeah no, and it's also a danger that they will
steal your skull after you have passed on. So the
initial impetus for like all of this corpse desecration seems
to have been that he's got this like club that
he's formed with these kids. It's like, you know, a
child gang, right, and he wants to have a human
skull that he can sit in the middle of their meetings. Right.

(10:03):
Their club is kind of it's very Calvin and Hobbes
type situation, Like they've got like a little secret society
for kids, and these are I think mostly you know,
there's not a lot of media for nerdy kids in
the UH in nineteen twenties, right in the early twenties.
Why he had to steal a skull. Yeah, So he

(10:24):
and his friends are like these kind of nerdy kids
and they're they're probably reading pulp magazines, they're hanging out
in the night, they're doing magic rituals, and they want
a skull for their magic rituals. This is again kind
of like this is like the furthest limits of little
stinker behavior. I think we're really pushing the he's goonies

(10:44):
maxing pretty hard right now, so let's going to reel
them in. Yeah. So the primary difference between Marion and
his friends and that skull and countless other groups of weird,
nerdy kids interested in the occult is that Marian had
absolute problem breaking the law. Right. There's a lot more
kids who would have done this if they had the
hutspa to rob a grave. But you know, that's that's Marian,

(11:08):
and it says a lot that he's able to convince
a lot of other little kids to go grave rubbing
with him. The cadence of what you just said was
very hustle culture. Like maybe if you got your ass
up and went to the graveyard, you would be leading
a cult. I do periodically when I'm like running and
listening to different like workout mixes, I'll get one that's

(11:30):
like because I just want a bunch of random songs
cut together like a four or four beat or some shit.
But you'll catch one that's like they're they're putting the
music to like clearly I don't know who it is,
but some like real estate influencer yelling at you about
never giving up. It's how to achieve. I went through
a dark hour of the soul this summer, and I

(11:51):
was going to a lot of cycling classes in Maine,
so just take that in. There was at one of
the classes there, I forget if I told you about this,
they were playing a techno remix of the Kavanaugh hearing.
He told me. I was just like, here, I have
to get out. I have to go home, like I

(12:12):
don't know what I'm doing here now, Jamie. Editorially in
this techno remix, is it does it come down more
pro or anti kafan Off? It's very vague, I would
say it is. It's completely ambivalent, and you're in it,
like I mean, to the credit of Portland, Maine. Every
person in the class was looking around like there's no way,

(12:34):
there's no way that this is playing. And then the woman,
you know, the woman in the friend is doing what
all the cycling instructors do, which is like God needs
you to you know, bike And it was I think
about it all the time. That was a clearer. I
was like, I don't I have to get out of
here with all My response was do I need to

(12:54):
come get you. Yeah in the morning, coming hot with
the cap. Yeah, I you know, I dabbled it. I
fucked around and I found out. It really is just
like all of the bad sketch comedy about spinning. It's
like showing up for a hot yoga session and right
when it starts to get intense, they put on the

(13:15):
Nixon tapes. You're just hearing all of them and butter
into your fucking ears sweat. It's taking my chest tightened
to even think about it, Like it was just like brutal.
So I forget why that came up, but it felt
good to get off my chest. Yeah, nobody remembers. But
Petty is stealing skulls, right, He's got his kids, they're

(13:37):
doing their little occult rituals. He says. The skull is
there specifically to remind his friends of their mortality, which
is great. Little kids need to know that they too
will die more often. I think we should always be
telling children that. I really, you know, never forget the
first time you heard Memento Maury and it really hit Yeah,
it really. That is actually where this goes. Because in

(13:57):
the interview where I found him talking about it's a book,
actually where I found him talking about this skull. He follows,
like is introducing this concept with everybody would be better
off if they did that every day. Y'all ought to
get a skull and put it up in the middle
of the circle when you have a meeting. So, Sophie,
I want to go expense. I know where I can
get one in Paris. I have met the guy. So

(14:20):
I'm just gonna need about thirty four hundred dollars to
get a human skull. The school is that the okay,
first of all, the skull guy, yeah, you can. You
can find a lot of skulls in the catacombs. And
so if you're already selling ketamine in Paris, you probably
know the skulls. Realy good that you clarified, because being like, hey,

(14:41):
I know a guy who knows where to get the skulls.
He does know where to get He's shown me several
He quoted the price. I didn't buy it. I don't
buy human remains yet, but I really, I really am
like surprised that the price is that high. Well, you know,
I was a tourist in this situation. He may have

(15:02):
just been trying to like fleece me. He may have
just been sizing me up and being like, I bet
I could get this. I'm sure these are flexible prices, right,
That's the way I always didn't talk. He could have
talked him down. Yeah, I probably could have if I'd
wanted to buy human remains that day. He wanted that
on record that you were haggling over the skull you
were buying. Shall we if information comes out later that

(15:25):
I own human remains for recreational purposes, You're not allowed
to judge me because I'm not saying I wouldn't do it.
I'm saying I didn't like to have in your house
to look at. Oh well, I own Taxiderby in my house,
so yeah, but that's a people. Because that's cool. Let's
just say I have taxiderby of my house, so oh boy,

(15:48):
it's a bird. Anyway, he took a class, get over it.
It was very academic. I'm a searcher, I'm a hobbyist.
Uh huh, you're a finder. Well maybe not okay, So yeah,
that's his first His first fun anecdote is he convinces
some kids to desecrate human remains. And this is going
to be like a trend for him, right where the

(16:09):
first version you hear of what's happened, like as a
young boy, he stole human remains. It's like, well, that
could be pretty fucking wild, and he's like, yeah, it
was basically we were playing magic and it thought it
would make the room look cooler. And it's like, okay, well,
I understand that, like the child logic, there is not
sinister you know, it's not something that's accessible to most
children today. But it's like as like, yeah, if you're

(16:33):
a kid interested in the occult and there's skulls around
all over, fortunately, yeah, I see it. I don't think
it's necessarily a sign of evil quite yet. No, No,
it is a sign though that he's very good at
talking other people into things. Yes, So, like a lot
of little kids in the nineteen forties the Great Depression,

(16:53):
Petty dropped out of school well before graduating. He only
makes it to the ninth grade, which is not uncommon
for young men, and my grandpa only made it to
like the eighth grade just because, like the economy is
so dire, you have to go work or your family
will starve. But in Petty's case, at least he would
claim and nearly all of our sources on his childhood.

(17:14):
Basically one hundred percent of it is him. So take
all of this, even the skull story, with a grain
of salt. But he would insists that I didn't He
didn't drop out because of hardship, but because he made
a choice to not go to school anymore. Quote, I
consider my whole life in education, and that all I
do is work on my education. I dropped out of
school because it was interfering with my education. So that's

(17:36):
his claim. Decades later, it's unclear. He says he joined
the army at thirteen right after this, and some of
the interviews he's given, the timeline he gives makes it
look more like he in the earliest he would have
joined as like sixteen, which is not uncommon. And we're
talking World War Two. A lot of sixteen year old

(17:56):
Americans while in the army, they're taking whomever. Yeah, they
are not discriminating hardier. Yeah. It is hard to prove exactly.
And this is by the way, Petty is actually before
because this would be like thirty three, so he's World
War two has not started for him yet. It is
hard to prove what he did. Uh, he definitely served

(18:19):
in the Armed forces, and it's not weird that in
this it's not it is weird. It's not impossible to
have served as a thirteen year old in the US
Army at this period of time. The youngest World War
Two era serviceman is believed to have been Calvin Graham,
who enlisted from Houston after Pearl Harbor at the age
of twelve. So somebody he is not claiming to be

(18:41):
the youngest person who joined the US Army in this
roughly this period. Yeah, that's a toss up because it like,
I have no reason to not believe that the US
would accept soldiers that young, and I also it also
feels very cult leader origin story he's made. And again
I hear there are like two distinct versions of his

(19:04):
timeline you get, and one of them pushes everything forward
like three or four years, which would mean like, yeah,
he joined in the late thirties when he was like
sixteen or seventeen, which is not at all uncommon in
this area. That said, he claims thirteen. And you know,
it's interesting because both because as you said, this could
be kind of a cult leader story. But the thing

(19:24):
that I think might say the most about him, whether
or not it's true. Is how he claims he convinced
his parents to let him join the army right at
the age of thirteen, which is that he leaves a
newspaper clipping on the dining room table so that they
like find it when they come in for breakfast. And
it's a story about a little kid who like got
angry at his parents for not giving him something, and

(19:46):
so he murdered his father. And he was basically like,
because I was such a good kid. When they saw this,
they realized like how strongly I felt, and let me leave.
But that's that's a pretty manipulative at the very manipulative
or you want us to believe you were manipulative. Either way. Yeah,
Like there, I can see the five D chess. But

(20:08):
it also why would you say that? Why would you
say that? Thoughts? Yeah, it's he has he has a
real a lot invested. He's one of these guys. He's
the most like want to be chess master type dude
of any cult leader I've seen, Like he wants to
be the three D chess guy very badly. Yeah, and

(20:29):
I think that's why he tells this story. Whether or
not it's true, it also could be true because like
he really likes to make elaborate, weird threats to compel
people's behavior, and this is a lifelong thing that he does,
so you know, maybe maybe okay, yeah, there mean, I'm

(20:50):
hearing a lot of unhinged stories that are that are
a hard maybe yeah does a lot of these stories
come from a book called The Game Caller, which you'll
understand that term later. It's about Petty and it's written
by a former cult member who like left and had
a big lawsuit with him. But also they kind of
were frenemies because he would whenever journalist would talk to me,

(21:11):
like I actually like him a lot. He's just fucking
me on this, so I got to assume him. He
writes a book after the guy dies. I don't know
whether or not we should trust this either, but it's
simply the only source we have. God. Cult leaders are
such motherfuckers, Jamie. It's just like a whole myth making game.

(21:31):
And it's yeah, there's like so many sources that are
like okay, so you know, of course, say what you
will about his methods. There's like an air of that
to everyone to like, oh yeah, a lot of people,
and with Petty it is more credible than a lot
of like el Ron Hubbery. His official version of his
life is that, at age like six, he was made
a blood brother of the Blackfoot tribe for his many

(21:53):
contributions to their people, which simply didn't in part because
the Black tribe do not have blood brothers. That's like
not a thing there. It's like a thing he picked
up from books later in his life and differently petty.
Everything he says, whether or not it's true, is totally possible.
Graves were a lot easier to break into back then.
People did join the US Army that young around that time,

(22:17):
and children have threatened to murder their fathers, So it
could all be true, is what. That's the thing. Yeah,
it's I feel like if he is playing a myth
making game here, he is like hedging his beds smarter
than your average cult later. Yes, yes, and I think
he was actually so. Yeah, he decides he joins the
army very young. I think in either case, he definitely

(22:38):
joins quite young and decides to make a career out
of it. He's going to stay in for more than
twenty years, and he is, you know, for his weird guys,
He's going to be later. He's extremely successful and serious
in the army. He's a non commissioned officer. And for
those of you who don't know army stuff, the whole
shebang is split, like the army is split between You've
got your NCOs, which is like everything up to like

(23:00):
all the sergeants, corporal sergeants, all that good shit, right,
and then you've got officers, lieutenants, captains, colonels, majors, generals.
That was not in perfect order, and so like that's
the way the Army works. I don't know how the
Navy the Air Force works, and I don't care. Marian
would eventually rise to the rank of master sergeant, which
is pretty high up in the non commissioned officer ladder, right,

(23:23):
relative of pretty a pretty small number of people who
are in the military, who are enlisted become master sergeants.
It's not the kind of thing you kind of like,
you have to really want to make a career out
of the army to hit there. Right. I'm not sure
if he's like an or seven or an or eight,
but likes he does very well. He's a proficient soldier.

(23:44):
He worked well within the army, and one of the
things that suggests is like he was reasonably good at
like kind of internal politics, right that you just getting
along with people, doing favors for folks, understanding what people
want out of you. We know he gets a tattoo,
probably very early on in his military service. He just says,
while he's a teenager, so I don't know there's like

(24:05):
a five year period there. Well, yes, it's the same
tattoo Ben Affleck has. It's a giant, full back phoenix piece. Yes, indeed, yes, indeed,
that's why we know it. He got the same tattoo
Ben Affleck. Dip. Wow. I can't believe that Ben Affleck
didn't get called out for copying the Leader of the

(24:25):
Finder's back tattoo. This is the next plagiarism case that's
going to shake this country, Jamie. Now that that Harvard
shit's done, we're going after Ben for his phoenix tattoo.
That guy is uh yeah, that guy is shameless. He
gets away with everything. Uh huh, not anymore, Jamie. So

(24:45):
one of my favorite things, one of the early sources
where I eventually found out about this book by this
cult leader was this like weird dude substack that like
it's a great place to start, I don't want to
be mean to him because I think he's a harmless,
weird dude. But in this substack, which definitely he buys
into some conspiracy elements of it, he describes this as
an occult tattoo, and like, I don't know that it's

(25:06):
an ocult tattoo. It might just be a phoenix. I
don't know that that dude with a substack that was
one an occult tattoo. Is I don't know why this
is important to me? Is it a bad tattoo? Is
a tattoo on his own? Yeah, Jamie, of course, I
actually think it's a chest tattoo either way either, So
I man. I also, I mean, honestly, down the line,

(25:28):
if someone were to justify my worst tattoos by saying
that I was that they were connected to be occult,
I would be relieved. Sure, yeah, because the truth is
it was just a bad week. I was. It was
a bad week and you decided to sit down for
seventeen hours while somebody dissed. Well because three foot I,

(25:50):
I too have been liberated from the constraints of my
own sanity. Yeah, no, sure, yeah, I uh, I have
a I don't know I'll figure out what kind of
tattoo to pretend I have when we come back from
this ad break. We're back. I've got a bear with

(26:14):
a gun. Oh, bear with a gun would be a
good tattoo. I've got to wait. Let me show you.
Oh you've got a bear with a gun. I've got
a little militia bear. Friend of the pod Rory Blank,
who's the great cartoonist Bone Jail. Yeah, you find them
on Twitter. Did a stick and poke for me of
a little pigeon with a switchblade. Wow, they're cousins. This

(26:36):
is from a book called The Bear's Famous Invasion of Sicily.
Oh nice. They take over Sicily by force. They could
not do a worse job in Sicily than the Italian government.
So I think that seems like a real for Sicily.
Yeah yeah, so yeah, Petty you know, joins the army,
he gets his phoenix back tattoo, he does his he's

(26:59):
pre aflecking, and the same year he joins, he claims
possibly the same At the same time when he gets
his tattoo, he claims that he loses his virginity in
a whorehouse he just like walks in as a thirteen
year old he decides, like time for me to start
having sex, and he walks into a whorehouse. Now again,
could be a lie. Also, not hard to see this
hat working out in the thirties Like that does not

(27:22):
seem impossible, depressing no matter which way ends up being true. Yeah, yeah, bumpo, yeah, Okay,
there's no way for this not to be gross. But
this is him talking about himself as a thirteen year old.
He describes himself as having a vigorous libido, and would
decades later claim to have had since the age of

(27:42):
thirteen sex at least twice a week whenever possible, which
actually for a cult leader is not high libido. But
I do I say, twice a week is pretty conservative
if you're like, I'm the king of fucking well, not
to be critical, Yeah, we don't have to whatever. This
is what just what he says. It's a gross story. Yeah,
it's a gross story. He goes to Panama. I guess

(28:03):
like thirteen or fourteen. He works as an army lifeguard.
He made voracious use of the library on base. This
is he's a big reader, always always. He loves reading
encyclopedias too. He's just like hoovering up trivia. So maybe
that sounds so gross the way you said it sounded like, yeah, yeah,
it's sounded like a sex thing. It did. But veraciously

(28:27):
read encyclopedia. Hey, okay, wow, fucking the encyclopedia. Yeah, we
both had the same thought, which is cancel culture. Okay,
this guy's keeping me on my toes. I will say,
I'm gonna do yeah, all right. Whatever. So sometimes when
later talking about his time in the military, he would

(28:47):
focus on what a great place it was for him
to learn about human nature. Other times he was more flippant,
telling one follower, I drank and gambled and traveled around
and again, not not fun to think about, like a
little teenage getting like wasted Panama in the army, Like
that is kind of funny. Yeah, generationally it's all feasible. Unfortunately, yes,

(29:11):
this could very well be accurate. Yeah, he realizes in
the late thirties world War two is probably going to happen,
and being a fairly smart guy is like, what I
don't want to do is be anywhere near where people
are getting shot at. That doesn't seem very fun. So
he kind of social engineers his way into being a

(29:32):
driver for a general in the Army, a guy named
hap Arnold now very thirties, name very This dude couldn't
be more thirties and forties, and he is also like
a very important person. There's no air Force at the time,
right the late thirties early forties. We don't have like
an air force. The air stuff that our military does

(29:56):
is handled by the Army Air Corps, and the Army
Air Corps eventually gets kind of carved out of the
Army and becomes the Air Force. Right. Happ is the guy.
He's an Army general, but he's going to end his
career as an Air Force general. He basically is the
guy who like makes the Air Force's one of the
guys who creates the Air Force, right, and he's actually
like one of our earliest He's one of the first
three rated pilots in the history of the Air Force.

(30:18):
So he is he's like an old school pilot. Guy
Petty would later claim that during the war he becomes
this guy's driver, and so his job is he's chauffeuring
not just Hap but like all of these different people,
politicians and generals and whatnot, meet with him and he
chauffers them. Around two so you know, during this when

(30:38):
he's kind of in his off hours, not working, he
meets a Chinese man named Joe Chang who had immigrated
to the United States as a fourteen year old. Petty
claims in a lengthy interview to have learned martial arts
from the man, and when asked, well, what style of
martial arts did he teach you, this is the answer

(30:59):
Petty gave. It didn't have a name, but if you
had to call it something, it would be jiu jitsu. Now,
the basic idea is that you don't know what's going
to be thrown at you, so you want to be
ready to respond appropriately to anything without thinking about it.
Chang was a natural. There weren't many martial arts teachers
back then. And here's the thing. Number one, I don't
believe that that's nay, like, that's very big enough. No, definitely,

(31:23):
I'm not saying it's impossible that a kid from China
would know jiu jitsu. But is it not a Brazilian
It's not. It's not Brazilian. It is a Japanese. There
is a Brazilian jiu jitsu is a thing, but jiu
jitsu is a Japanese martial art. Your head is Brazilian
bow either way, I don't believe, especially especially the having

(31:44):
to walk back like, well, it doesn't really have a name.
You're like, yeah, that's that's not a thing. No, no, no,
I am sure. One thing I know about martial arts guys,
be they Brazilian, Chinese, or Japanese, is that they love
giving names to the things that they're doing. They're huge
fans of that. I've never yeah, I've never heard someone

(32:07):
into martial arts be like, there's no name for this.
I don't know what this is. I'm just throwing people.
There's no technique, there's no philosophy connected to it. I'm
just doing whatever. Yeah. No, if that were the case,
no one would know the name of Terrence Judo. Anyway.
That's we'll let it slide. We'll let it slide. So

(32:29):
I don't believe this entirely. It is true. There are
some Chinese martial arts that have similarities with jiu jitsu,
at least according to a random guy on Quorra I read.
Maybe that's not accurate. I'm not a martial arts guy,
not the Kora source for the first half hour of
the episode to have learned Japanese martial arts from this

(32:52):
Chinese guy that he meets in DC while he's driving
around famous people. And this is worth mentioning because Joe
Chang was a real who was a kind of interesting background.
He was. You know, he immigrates into the United States
as a kid as a fourteen year old. He's enrolled
in a Jesuit academy where he studies journalism, and then
he becomes a correspondent for a Chinese government owned news

(33:15):
service until now, well one of the Chinese governments, because
this is during their civil war, and then you know,
he is not aligned with the side that wins, right
with the communists. One of the substacker I found describes
him as a supposed Chinese agent operating under journalistic cover.
Found any real evidence that that's precisely the case that

(33:38):
seems to be stating it. I mean it is like
a government so yet to that extent, yeah, that makes
it sound more like school duggery and spying as opposed
to like, well, this guy's an immigrant. Sounds like he
was offered a job by one of the sides in
that war, like putting out information in the US, and
then that side lost and he continued his life until
it ended. I haven't found any evidence that this is

(34:01):
as interesting as people think it is. But it's through
Marion's studying with Chang that he would meet his wife, Isabelle.
She was a regular attendee at the same YMCA where
he took classes during the war. She volunteered to be
a hostess at the library that he was at. One day.
What does that mean, like, like your librarian. I think, oh,

(34:21):
that's fun. Yeah, okay, yeah, yeah, it sounds nice. And
she sees him reading a book about Korea, and you know,
this is the forties, and so she comes over and
strikes up a conversation, and he claims she immediately is like,
do you want to go fuck? I want someone to
take my virginity. Let's go back to your place, which
could be true. Like they're definitely married. I don't know
how it happened, you know, Okay. I just feel people

(34:45):
were horny in the forties too, I know, but I
just don't. I don't know. I feel like people who
are really genuinely having sex like that do not talk
about it. That's my theory, like if you really you're
not I don't know. Also, maybe that's just my naive world.
The quote started with he claims, and then I was yeah,

(35:08):
he claims, he claims they are they are for sure married.
I don't know. It is like maybe in the nineteen forties,
if you're like, hey, I know how to read and
I know what Korea is, that does put you in
like the top half a percentile in terms of education.
It sucks, like yeah, where you have to keep like
going back and being like, well in context, because my

(35:29):
grand my grandparents met when my grandfather was cat calling
her from the street. She was like pushing her baby
sister around as a teenager in like a little carriage,
and my grandfather pulled over and said, hey, is that
your baby? My god, and she said no, and he's like,
let's go out tonight. And then they were married for

(35:51):
five thousand years. Yeah, that is that the And it's like,
so yeah, maybe she maybe she'd proposed to like three
other guys and they'd all screamed when they saw the
condom because they thought it was some sort of devil.
And so she sees a man who can read, and
it's like, this is the one for me. He'll what
a condom is? Yeah, he at least won't. He knows

(36:15):
what that rubber is a substance. He won't immediately screech
that I'm the devil slim pickens ah, really shitting on
our forties ancestors. Well, I'm not claiming it's that much better. No, no, no,
no no no. I do actually believe that rubber is
created by witches. But I just think that's why, you know,

(36:36):
the Witchcraft industrial complex is such a centerpiece of American prosperity. Anyway,
moving on, one claim that is consistent across many years
of interviews with Mary and Petty, and is also something
that other people have brought up, is that during and
right after the war years he kind of has he

(36:56):
gets lucky, right, he has a great wartime experience, great
early Cold War experience. He's just driving famous people around DC.
He is also kind of an early swinger. He maintains
two apartments in DC, and he's basically like anyone he
meets that he thinks sounds interesting. He's like, hey, you
can stay in my apartment for free, and so a

(37:18):
lot of them kind of do. Now. He says this
was like a con kind of because they would always
offer money and there were so many people staying in
his flophouse that it worked out to be more than
the cost of print. God, I don't know. It's a
weird situation. I mean, I feel like these kinds of

(37:38):
like I don't know, these kind of guys are who
are just around like they exist. They get the best stories.
They do tend to live in houses with too many
people in them, that's for sure. Now he is having
sex with some of these people, but not all of them.
In later interviews, he would describe this as an exper

(38:00):
mental living situation. He was basically, he said, I was
creating a college for myself. Quote. The idea in my
head was that they were going to teach me something
about power, money, or sex, which those aren't the only
three things people can teach you about. Marion. Kind of
weird to frame it that way. Well, we've all lived
in a punk house at some point. This isn't sounding
too He said, he's going to teach me the drums. Yeah, yeah, okay,

(38:27):
yeah again he is. He is kind of the prototype
for a sort of guy we all lived with for
at least six months back in the early two thousands. Yeah,
and many of them do end up believing in conspiracy
theories on a long enough timeline. Yeah, they are all
people you don't want to like check in on on
Facebook right now. In conversations with a follower later related

(38:48):
in the book Game Caller, one gets the idea that
this was though primarily about sex. Quote and this is Marion.
Three girls lived on the floor above, and I also
had the run of their place. There was plenty of
sex in those days. During the war. Everybody was sort
of in a state of suspension. Nobody knew what it
was going to be like the next day, so things
were a lot freer, including sex. And I don't know

(39:11):
things things really for your including sex. I just would like,
you know, I went just like a pull quote from
the women upstairs, and yeah, what was the No, one
never asked them anything. But we really can't be like,
it's even from a modern perspective. You can't just be
interviewing the guy who runs the house, who is your

(39:35):
friend and also who you sued for stealing a bunch
of your money. This is the one source for your book.
We have to like, really, yeah, that's okay, Yeah, no,
but sure the sex was awesome and everyone wanted it
from him. Absolutely, Yes, that that is certainly his version

(39:58):
of his life. Yeah. He also would claim later that
during this period he as regular contact with like very
powerful men through his job as a chauffeur, which is
maybe to some extent true. He's also definitely lying, and
this is how it's related by one of his former
cult members, a guy named Toby Terrell. I didn't just
drive half Arnold. I was assigned to be Arnold's driver,

(40:19):
but when he didn't need me, I was available to
drive other big wigs from the Pentagon and the White
House and Capitol Hill. When the generals wanted to go
somewhere or to have somebody picked up, they would send
me or one of the other drivers. During the war,
they had even more power than they do now. I
lived and worked down near Constitution Avenue until they finished
the Pentagon in about nineteen forty three. I drove all
of the famous and the powerful. Did you ever drive

(40:39):
the President, that's Terrell I ask, not while he was
the president. He says, they've got their own drivers. But
I drove Truman before he was the president, and Eisenhower
before he was the president, and Lyndon Johnson. Although he
didn't like me, plenty of others too. Marshall, Patton All
of the other generals j Edgar Hoover, just about everybody
in those days. Why do you think Johnson didn't like you?
I ask, We weren't in the same sort of consciousness

(41:00):
like them either. It's almost impossible to arrive at any
kind of equality with a politician. They always have some
hidden agenda going on that they think will give them
more power. It was a great job. You overhear a
lot of stuff that you can learn from. Did they
confide in you, I ask, not much, he says. Arnold's
wife did, but not the men. I would hear stuff.
If I was driving more than one person, I could
listen in on what they were talking about. Then I

(41:20):
would read about it the papers later and get some perspective.
I heard what they were saying, and I understood the context.
Then i'd see the way the press wrote about it.
Quite often it was different. Didn't they try to keep
you from hearing it? I ask, no, never, he says.
They never hid anything. They knew that it was safe
to say whatever they wanted to in front of me.
Do you remember any of the stuff that you heard?
I ask. It was mainly psychology, he says, figuring out

(41:40):
how the human mind works that we're all trying to
get some power to hold on to it. I had
opted out of that game. Plenty of times. They offered
to make me an officer, but I always turned it down.
I wanted to keep my head clear for learning. If
you've got some big hidden agenda, like getting a promotion
or being appointed to some big government job, you think
different and talk different. You filter everything through your hidden agenda,
so what comes out is designed to make you look

(42:01):
like a hero. Okay, that was a long quote, but
there's a lot. Yeah, okay, okay, where to begin there?
The thing is again, on its face, do I believe that,
you know, people speak freely in front of service employees
because they're fucking assholes and don't view service employees with

(42:22):
the humanity they should. Sure do I believe that people.
But that's not what he's saying. He's like, they taught
me lessons about life and told my secrets. Yeah, they
just could sense that I'm kind of that bitch, and
so they like it's really the like, maybe I'm just
too tiny, harding piled. He sounds so much like Jeff

(42:46):
Gluy's friend, who was like, yes, yes, the CIA hired
me blah blah blah, Like he's just like a weird,
cowardly guy who ended up adjacent to something important once
made it out to be this huge thing. It's so like, oh,
it's embarrassing. Well, and there's he never gives you any

(43:07):
details about like mostly learned, like what's really this is
as close as we get, right, And actually, you know,
I go back and forth on some of this because
like some of it does seem more credible, right, Like
here's him talking. He says that, Yeah, here's him talking
about half Arnold. Arnold was a man's man. He was
awkward around women and just did what she told him.

(43:30):
His wife. All of the men liked him and followed
his orders. He knew how to run a big game.
But he was afraid of women. I never met any
of the generals who weren't afraid of women. I drove
all their wives at one time or another. They all
knew me and liked me. They could sense that I
was on their side. And like, I believe part of that,
which is that, like all of these guys are scared
of their wives. Maybe I get I'm like he's choosing

(43:51):
his like if he is lying, which I feel he
is like he's choosing, he's being pretty like plausible. I mean,
the fact offered to be a general like and then
even just the vagueness of like you know when you
get into an uber after a couple of drinks and
you start talking about the psychology of power and how

(44:11):
to get more like it's all very It's all I
talk about to my uber drivers. How do you think? Yeah?
And then and then you offer them the chance to
be a general in the in the water Wars. Yeah,
like we all have that potential, Jamie, right now. True,
it's true, It's true. Okay, you know who else has

(44:31):
the potential to be a power broker in the coming
water Wars? Oh? Whatever, Brutal Stanley cup ad we're about
to play? Yeah, yeah, ideally, got god willing an ad
for Blue Apron, you know, blue like the water that
is nowhere around anymore because we have hired mercenaries to

(44:53):
give it all Tonesley so that they can make poison anyway.
You know, Island is a little different these days. It's
no longer surprise, it's no longer Ji water. We can't
do that. We can't do that, the Island thing anymore.
People believe it there's no more water. This is why
I was gonna start this episode. It's weird that we

(45:14):
arrived organically at joking about serial killing, because I was
going to start it by like really elaborately denying that
you were involved in like a series of murders in
Grand Rapids, Michigan. But then I was like, no, people
might people might think that Jamie is involved in a
series of murders outside Grand Rapids, Michigan, and you're not.
People are at just like high rates of media literacy,

(45:36):
off the charts. Everyone's doing great. Yeah, So don't google
Jamie loftis Grand Rapids, Michigan murders, common Hammer. Don't do
it because nothing will come up. I swear nothing will
come up, although it would be pretty funny if a
lot of people did that, and then that became like
the first thing would people type your name Jamie loftis
raw talk, Jamie loftus murders, Grand Rapids. That's that's that's

(45:58):
a career maker right there. Fuck with the Wikipedia page.
See if I care, here's ads and we're back. So
when I think about this guy and his stories of

(46:20):
all the secrets these generals for sure told him, I
think about Bill Cooper. Bill Cooper was like a right
wing conspiracy radio host in the nineties. He dies in
kind of a shootout with the police. He is the
proto Alex Jones, and he during his time in the
Army around this time, he works briefly in the Pentagon, right,

(46:40):
and he spent the rest of his life being like
I saw this document that claims this insane thing or
that insane thing when I was working in the Pentagon.
Petty kind of does the same thing, right, And he
will talk later about like I met all of the
guys that were in the OSS before they became the CIA,
Like I knew all those guys. Some of that's probably
true because his wife is works for the CIA, Isabelle.

(47:03):
She winds up being in the CIA, and he's definitely
driving officers. Some of those guys would have wound up
in the CIA, So he does have some degree of
very real CIA connections. First of all, I'm mad at
you for reminding me about Bill Cooper, but uncle Bill.
But but so what is his what is his wife

(47:23):
doing in the CIA? I mean, I think it's probably
like desk work, clerical work. I don't like, I don't
think there were a lot of ladies who were agents.
You don't think she could ruin the world. I think
she couldn't know, Jamie, I believe I believe tens of
thousands of Latin American women and children and men and

(47:45):
old people. I believe she could kill cities worth of
them if she put her mind to it. I'm just
not certain because I've never actually heard anything about what
specifically she did for the agency. It is the CIA, right, so,
but she but she's working there and he is still
doing his This is like a very bizarre power couple situation. Yeah,

(48:07):
she's he's in the military, like you know, for most
of the fifties, the first two thirds of it, and
she's in the CIA from like fifty two to sixty one,
right Oka, And yeah, that's that's kind of their period
of overlaps, like four years where he's in the military.
She's in the CIA because he joined so early. He
finishes his career at some point in the fifties. His son,

(48:28):
who knows his dad is kind of full of shit,
will say that he retired from the Air Force in
nineteen fifty six, which if that's the case, then he
would have joined at like the Army at like sixteen,
because his chunk of the armor becomes the Air Force.
That's why he leaves a different service than he started
in anyway, whatever, I think his son is probably accurate,

(48:49):
and he was pushing things again, that's the kind of
the kernel of truth. He joins the army really young.
The lie he joined at thirteen, right right, You're just like,
what what is this adding for your cult recruits? That
you were just set it up a little bit, Jamie.
He's just put a little bit spin on it, you know, yeah,
sank on it. He's just putting some Legassi bam on it.

(49:13):
I miss him, Oh yeah, I do miss Emerald. I
assume he was swallowed by the earth like everyone else
I remember from that period of time. It's true, he
actually may have never existed. It's a it's a complicated conversation. Yeah. Yeah.
There is now a parody of him on Futurama, and
like two thirds of the people who have seen it
have no idea what he's based on. Good stuff. So

(49:40):
I found an article in the Washington Post that interviews
his son, George, and this is kind of blissfully and
George doesn't talk about most of his dad's life, but
whenever George comes in, I'm like, well, this is probably
pretty close to truth. George seems like he's got his
head and screwed on straight, and he knows that his
dad was full of crap. And he told the miss quote.
In the nineteen six he was a student of the

(50:01):
world who would spend the whole day in the library
near the family farm. Then around nineteen seventy one, he
gathered his followers in the W Street House. This was
the beginning of a new life for him. They found
in their communal lifestyle, a more adventurous life. Right, So
he he spends several years reading and then he's like,
he's doing the same. He's got a family farm. It's
like ninety acres at this point, he's living there. His

(50:24):
wife is sometimes there, but she has a separate house.
It's whatever, do what works for you in a relation?
Yeah sure, I'm like, you know, if had either resources,
why not, couldn't hurt Yeah? Why? Yeah exactly? Why not?
But yeah, there, So he just starts inviting people to
his farm kind of over the sixties, and then in
nineteen seventy one he gets a bunch of followers together

(50:46):
at like a rented house and he's like, hey, guys,
we're going to be a cult now. We're all got
to live together. We're all going to pool our bank accounts.
I've got a great plan. It's going to be cool
and a lot what a bummer house meetings, Like No,
I knew. I knew it was too good to be true.

(51:07):
Like it says a lot about the early seventies that
it seems like most of the people who are like
around him are like, yeah, right, well, I mean, honestly
for that, I've not done worse. But like, you know,
for a good living situation, you'll really can see quite
a bit. Had I had a place in like a
beautiful like I had my own bedroom. It was like

(51:29):
a three person apartment in Boston, and it costs four
hundred dollars a month. And the landlord was like, the
only caveat is that if the police come to the apartment,
you have to say that you're my daughter. And I
was like, yeah, all right, you know, and they never
showed and it was and I lived in Bliss for

(51:51):
no money for two years. It was awesome. Who knows
what he did, I'll never know. We all just had
There were three women who lived in that apartment, and
we all had to agree that we would say we
were his daughter. I think I think he murdered his daughter,
is what. I think. He just needed three Caucasian women
in there. Yeah, to three women who all looked close

(52:15):
enough like his daughter around. So we did, showed up,
we did all. You know, we were all kind of
tall brunettes. We just didn't talk about it, like anyway, Sure,
he'll agree to a lot. We're done. Look, look, if
you're listening in right now, you do the same thing
next to Mit. Are you joking? It was like me
and two MIT students that were like, well he certainly

(52:35):
did something, yeah, but hard to say anyways. Yeah. So
he says, hey, guys, we're going to do a cult
in nineteen seventy one. And you know, because all the
reading he's done, he's developed this real, this fascination with futurism, right,
and he's also he's equally interested in like kind of

(52:56):
pop a cult shit, the stuff that's going to become
new age. Right, this is kind of right at the
birth of New Age, and so he is particularly obsessed
with the writings of Carlos Castaneda. Now a lot of
people are probably familiar with carl the Don Juan books, Right,
So Carlos cassned these are like nineteen sixties. They come out,

(53:17):
chronicles of mystic self exploration that are kind of one
of the inciting incidents of the New Age movement. Yeah,
Castaneda was He's this Peruvian writer who comes to the
United States and gets a doctorate in anthropology from the
University of California, and he writes three books, starting with
the Teachings of Don Juan, which he claims are a
faithful representation of his apprenticeship of a traditional shaman of

(53:40):
the Yaqui people in northern Mexico. Right, that he goes
and lives with this Yaqui shaman sorcerer fell at Don Juan,
who teaches him a bunch of mystical stuff, right, and then,
as you know, he does get a doctorate in anthropology.
He's like writing about this experience he had as an anthropologist.
He actually writes these as part of his doctoral program

(54:03):
at the University of California. I hate that I knew
where he went to school. Yeah, oh yeah, do U
c l A. Yeah he sure did, baby, he absolutely did.
Now you would think if you're a real anthropology program
at a real college, which we can all agree u
c l A is not. You would check the work

(54:24):
of a doctoral student, one presumes, right. I feel like
that's part of the point. You would think, you know
u c l A. Will UCLA ever answer for its crimes? Answer? No,
half the camp like their baseball stadium is on, like
veteran owned land whatever, They're okay, So so there there.
Wizards are real at u c l A. Wizards real, yes,

(54:48):
more or less Jamie. And again, I'm not speaking anything
about actual yet key beliefs, because Castaneda is not either.
This is just a book that he writes. It becomes
immediately successful. Uh, and it is. It is beloved, it's
you get some interesting Depending on what year you're reading,
people talking about these books very different responses. There are

(55:10):
some respected academic figures who love Castaneda's work, but these
are also all drug guys, right. Their expertise is not
anthropology or the yaki, It is mushrooms. In the case
of Gordon Wasson, right, he's like a guy who really
likes his fucking mushrooms. And he is there and is
there a more seventies thing to do than to make

(55:30):
a best selling book based off of an actual belief
system that you've heard of, Like yeah, yeah, it's it's
it's it's fun. So yeah, these are you know, kind
of like our buddy Petty. His his lies. Castaneda lies
are not like super lazy, like there's usually degrees of

(55:51):
real knowledge in them, are like little pieces of it,
and then he just spins it to make kind of
the Hollywood version. But he's also a playerist. He plagiarizes
large chunks of this. There's a bunch of inconsistencies in it.
All of this gets found out, but it does take
a while. It's harder to like spot this stuff back
then there is no Huy to drop a nuclear bomb, Carlos.

(56:18):
It's also worth noting that anthropologists who have spent time
with Yaki people uh will note that the books contain
absolutely no there's no use of Yaki vocabulary anywhere in there,
Like yeah, he just does not use any of the
words that they use, which is suspicious for a book
of anthropology. Nothing, yeah, for your doctoral thesis, what do

(56:43):
you Okay? Okay, I always love talking about Castaneta, but
like my point is that these books that inspire Petty
are full of shit, but he loves them and they
inspire him to create all of these arcane rules and
vaguely occult rituals for his hanger on. And he's basically
the way he frames this is like this is a
learning community. You're all coming here to like learn more

(57:07):
about yourselves. And I'm here. I'm not really even the leader.
I'm the student. I'm going to learn from all of you.
You know, We're all going to like teach each other, right,
And he does a lot of kind of classic cult things.
He's at his farm. It's like known as a place
in the area. You can get a free organic meal
anytime you go there. So like a lot of drifters
pass through, and like if he finds them interesting or

(57:29):
if they'll do what he says, they kind of become
part of the group. Although while those people that is
a factor, a weird number of his followers are like
successful and educated. There's like PhDs there, there's Harvard graduates.
There's like businessmen who have like run successful oil companies
who are all going to fall in with him, as
he's kind of I'll explain what they're doing in a

(57:51):
second here, but like it's it's yeah, it's I can
see why there was an appeal to it. He's basically
said that net to get folks in from Yeah, it is,
and it's we're just going to start talking about like
what exactly these people are doing because it's a little different. Ye, Like,
how does he get guys who are in oil to

(58:13):
move into his punk house? Yeah? Basically, this whole organization,
the Finders, which he starts calling in nineteen seventy one,
is organized around what he calls a game, and everyone
is playing the game who is in the cult? And
he Mariann is the game caller. Right, He's basically a
DM for their lives. And so if you're a member

(58:34):
at various points, sometimes you'll all live communally and like
do like commune stuff, grow food. But periodically he'll pick
a number of people and he'll say you need to
go to Japan for six months. Here's the name of
a company. I want you to spy on their operations
and find out everything you can about them. Or here
is a political candidate. I want you to go like
research him, or I want you to go do this

(58:55):
job for two I want you to start a company
her startup capital, build this company with these two other people.
This is the game that you're playing right now, and
I'll tell you when it's done, and then you'll you'll
come back and you'll talk to us about what you
learned doing it. Right. Yeah, Well, because if anything bad happens,
it's nothing bad happens. It's just a game. It's just
an arg that you're living in. You can't be you

(59:17):
can't be you know, taken to court for things you
were doing just for a fun game. It's also it's
such a it's such an oddly specific thing. But I
think the appeal to a lot of people is that,
like even a lot of educated successful people, is like, well,
you don't have to make decisions about what you're going
to do with your life. This man will tell you
what your next thing is. And he seems pretty smart,

(59:40):
so maybe he knows that this is what I need
to be doing with my time. For his wife's part,
you don't get great context on her, but she definitely
starts living away from him during this period of time,
and her view of according to their son, her view
of his followers is like these are a bunch of weirdos,
Like you're hanging out with a bunch of weirdos, What
is wrong with you? I wish I wish more uh more.

(01:00:04):
People felt empowered to be like, no, too weird, I'm
out of here. Sorry, I'm out. I'm out. The CIA
wasn't too weird for me, but you are, Mary, Yeah,
you're like, no that I'm gonna I'm going to return
to the safe embrace of the CIA where everyone's normal.
Marion adopts a nickname at this point for himself, the stroller,

(01:00:27):
because he takes he's every day. He'll spend like four
or five hours walking and like taking notes on the
neighborhood that he's in and like everything that happens around it.
But he just walks all the time, which is Keith
Ranieri was the same thing, where like that was his
his number one character trait other than being his sex criminal,
was that he would walk around all the time and

(01:00:47):
just you bullshit out of his mouth to whoever was
forced to follow him. Yeah. Interesting was the Carnaria was
huge on like wandering and like sleep deprivation, right, yes,
yeah yeah. And the chief difference between them is that
we have no evidence that Mary and Petty was a
sex criminal, although I'm certainly not ruling it out Jamie. Yeah,

(01:01:10):
based on Okay, yeah, I think we would be unwise
to rule out so his wife. His wife leaves him
now not really leaves him, but is not living with
him and seems to be kind of frustrated with him.
She dies not all that long after this. She doesn't
live a super long life. But yeah, so the game. Yeah,

(01:01:33):
they're all playing this game. And he starts calling his
group the Finders, and the name was actually based on
an old medieval like concept. They're literally playing D and D.
This is so oh god, they are. They are definitely
playing DNB Like eighty percent of this cold and eighty
percent of Petty's life given his childhood activities, is like O.

(01:01:56):
If this kid had D and D right, like, we
really gotta we got him on the straight and narrow early,
he would have just been a prolific DM. He would
have been going to three and a half million dollars
from a D and D podcast fine, breaking it in
on Patreon, and it would have saved everybody a lot
of trouble. Yeah. Yeah, you can go to the military
when you were thirteen in D and D. Yeah, yeah,

(01:02:19):
you can't make against it. Yeah, it's always nice to
introduce a liar to D and D because you're just
like here, go nuts over here, enjoy yourself, have fun
with this. This is what you need to control yourself.
This is your riddle. Yeah, someone's getting it angry about that. Well,

(01:02:40):
I don't claim that statement, Robert. I just think that
D and D is a fun place for liars. That's
what I'm going to say. So I want to to
talk more about how this game works. I'm going to
quote from an article in the City Paper by John Cohen.
Rt G I A D Ready to go win any direction.

(01:03:00):
It's the salutation or closing found on almost every finder's report,
and it's the essence of the group. If you aren't
RTGI a D, you can't play the game calls and
with the finders, everything is a game call. Dress, diet, work, play, travel, marriage, divorce, pregnancy,
child rearing, pranks, investigations, even calling games can be a
game call. And what that means is that like he's

(01:03:23):
not as this evolves, he's not just saying, Hey, I
want you to go to this country and spy on
this thing for me, or I want you to start
a business. He's saying, like, you're only gonna wear skirts
you know, from now on until I say, or you're
only eating vegetables from now on until I say you
can't cook any of your food for six weeks. You
have to marry this person. You two should split out.

(01:03:44):
So it's like Simon says, but yeah, Simon says. Simon says,
have a child with this other cult member and raise
them this way. Yeah, Simon says, but for your bodily
autonomy and a lot of the And there are people
who leave, but like there's generally a few dozen adults
who are like, yeah, why not, let's try. What is

(01:04:04):
the timeline on this escalation from like, hey, move into
my punk house to okay? But like, how quickly do
we get from move into my punk house to like
Simon says, that your body is Mine? Kind of starts
in the late sixties, the hey, everyone come crash with me,
and then by seventy one they're like, hey, we're the Finders,

(01:04:27):
and like by the mid seventies, it's like, hey, you
should have a child now, okay, okay, So it is
like a slow ish escalation. Yeah, that's that's more as
I understand it. Yeah. A former member, Robert Terrell, who
wrote the book that I've been quoting from a bit
provided more detail. In a nineteen ninety one interview, Petty

(01:04:47):
used the term pressure cooker. The idea was to explore
your own person and discover your own true nature. You
can't do that just by sitting at a desk or
on a couch in a routine way. You have to
have some experiences. So Petty was good at structuring experiences
from which you could learn. He called himself the game caller,
and what that meant is he'd call a game for
you to do something where you'd gain experience. Examples of

(01:05:07):
past games include making followers work a temporary accounting job
at a law firm, or flying to other countries to
spy on companies. Yeah, yeah, I is so mad. If
I was a cult member, that was like, you're going
to work an accounting desk job, and like that guy
got to go to fucking Japan for six months, Thank
you very much. Yeah, you have to do people's taxes.

(01:05:29):
But it does split up like that. It's interesting because
so there are a couple of things going on. Some
of this is like very much mid century, you know,
sixties inspired, Like we're somewhat politically radical and we're willing to,
you know, look at you know, very radical cultural ideas
like completely changing child rearing or relationship free love kind

(01:05:51):
of stuff. They're exploring that. That's a part of this,
but it's also like, hey, a lot of us are
spending a lot of our time LARPing as spies. We
are spying on political movements in the area. You know,
we're going to meetings, we're joining political organizations, we're writing
reports on it, We're writing reports on companies around the world.
We're doing and one version of the story is we
are LARPing as spies, right, this is a thing people

(01:06:14):
want to feel important. They want Petty doesn't even tell
us why. He just needs the info and the other
version of this story so they're doing it with no
That was the other question I have was like, are
they being led to believe that there is some sort
of perceived endgame or are they just doing that Not
as far as former members say, they were just interested

(01:06:35):
in growing as people and like learning and continuing to
play the game. He was fine, Free Teddy, Good trips
to Japan, Free trips to Japan. You know, Petty is like,
this was all part of my learning process as a
lifelong student of the world. Now, as we'll talk about
in part two, they're allegations some of what. You're pretty

(01:06:56):
credible that like some of a lot of some of
the spying, some degree of spying absolutely wound up on
the CIA's desk. Now did the CIA wanted on their desk?
That is a question that we're going to we're going
to talk about. But there are connections there, Like his
wife is a CIA agent and he is running an

(01:07:16):
amateur spy ring. So I think you can see the
direction things are going to go in in part two
to at least an extent. But Jamie, that's part one.
We're done. Wow, that actually like didn't get as bad
as I thought it would get. It gets it gets
a lot worse in part two. Oh few good, I
was helping something. Don't worry, don't worry, don't worry. This

(01:07:39):
is just set up, baby, And now it's time for
Robert to set you up to plug your plugg ables. Yeah, Jamie,
in addition to not even being in Grand Rapids, when
whatever happened to those people happened to them, you can
see just in Michigan. You are also the author of

(01:08:02):
the best selling book Raw Dog you are a co
host of the Bechdel Cast and you are the future host.
And I actually found this out in a tarot reading
I did last night of a podcast that Sophie. Can
we still not describe the podcast she's going to be
doing for it? I couldn't we conscribe it? Can you
do it? Oh? You can. It's in a magazine, now, Jamie,
you want to talk about it? Yeah, it's called fifteen Minutes.

(01:08:25):
It's on cool Zone, it's on Cools. I never heard
of it, And it's a podcast that is going to
be about the main characters of the Internet, what happened
and what happened to them. And I will directly be
telling you exactly how to feel about all of it,
each and every week starting in March. Now, Jamie, correct

(01:08:47):
me if I'm wrong here, But isn't it true that
listening to your new podcast on cool Zone is the
only way to receive the light of heaven after your
death and be ushered into paradise. That's how That's what
Sophie told me. And I have to believe what Sophie
tells me. I was gonna say, this is a Sophie
says situation. Yeah, this is well, and also on my

(01:09:10):
on my call, I have calls with the Pope every
couple of weeks. He really he really hit that. He
says he's the Pope. He really emphasized that to me
as well. Guy named Francis that is that is. I
did my verification as a journalist. A guy said he
was the Pope, and I made sure his ID sent Francis.

(01:09:30):
I'm not responsible for anything beyond that. Everything else is
from Quora. Also, I also want to plug We The Unhoused,
the show that I'm lucky to be producing. But it's
created and hosted by Theo Henderson, who is a formerly
unhoused Angelino, and every other Tuesday, he's covering issues from

(01:09:53):
an unhoused perspective. It's sort of hyper local, but I
think if you're unfamiliar with a lot of the issues
affecting the unhoused, he's doing a lot of incredible episodes,
including coming up like a whole roundtable discussion about philanthropy
versus direct action and so yeah, check that out. It's
on iHeartRadio. If you can believe, well, wow, I can believe,

(01:10:16):
and I am excited to listen, and listeners you should
be excited to listen to, and you should also, Oh
my god, turn the wheel. Turn the wheel. The car's
coming right at you. That was a mean way to
end the episode. Behind the Bastards is a production of
cool Zone Media. For more from cool Zone Media, visit

(01:10:37):
our website coolzonemedia dot com, or check us out on
the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

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