Hobos, Tramps and Bums: Modern Train-hoppers

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Go behind the wheel, under the hood and beyond with
car stuff from house stuff Works dot Com. I'd welcome
to car stuff. I'm Scott and I am then. We
are here as always with our super producer. Uh who
I want to be careful with the nickname here is Scott. Well,
we're here with Noel and we'll find a nickname for

(00:24):
him along the way. Either could be numerous funny nicknames
we can come up with for this. One said, yes,
something that might sound offensive if you don't have the
context of today's show. And this is this is a
fascinating one for us. This is um partially a history
spot partially and exploration of locomotives and exploration of national

(00:46):
security of hitch hiking. It's a little bit of everything,
isn't it. There's a lot of stuff here, And this
is something that you brought up, by the way, and
in a Nuts and Bolts episode, I believe right right,
we had talked about something called the hobo code. Yes
and uh, And if you dove into that, or if
you looked into that at all, Um, I think it's
I think it's definitely something worthwhile. And we we went

(01:07):
even deeper than that. And then you you plan to
take this, uh kind of to another level with another
show that you do here. Yeah, so we're gonna have
a couple of different UM forums for this this topic
to be kind of flushed out into see what it's
all about. But today we're gonna focus on the trains
and as he said, you know the people that do
this and maybe that maybe a little bit of the technology,

(01:27):
but not a whole lot, because we have a train
podcast that we've done in the past, UM that talks
all about you know, diesel efficiency, and UM, I don't
I'm probably getting off topic. Let's let's move on to
what it's all about today, because UM, it shouldn't be
a derogatory term or a slam in any way when
we call these people hobos, yes, hobos, tramps, bums, and

(01:49):
and the thing is they embrace those terms, right, those
are self identifying terms. Uh. These are the people that
historically would hop onto a freight train, hop onto a
box car and ride it from one time to the next,
maybe picking up odd jobs as they go, maybe not,
maybe causing trouble, but those would be bumps. Those are

(02:10):
the differentiation between these. As we'll get to a so
what most people think of the idea of a hobo
in the US, what we tend to think of would
be a middle aged to older man during the Great Depression,
right with a stick in a bindle, that's the name
for that thing. That's you know that they carry over
their shoulders, uh, hopping on the train. Um. Maybe a

(02:32):
little dirty, but with a dignity because the Great Depression,
the economic situation of the Great Depression, sent thousands and
thousands of people. They were driven out of their homes.
They had no place to sleep, they had no place
to work, so they traveled to find the work. And
they couldn't afford to drive. They would walk as much
as they could. So they have one answer to get

(02:54):
across the country. That was the railroad, and the railroad
had just those vast opportunities on the railroad to because
there were a lot of train tracks in the United States.
There still are. In fact, you know, as of two
thousand six, there's something like one hundred and forty thousand
miles of railroad tracks in the United States. Now, I
know that's an older number, so I don't know if
they're really laying a lot of railroad tracks these days

(03:15):
or not. Probably not as much as they did back then.
I would guess that in the nineteen thirties, UH were
there were less but not significantly less amounts of train
tracks in the United States. So there's a lot of
opportunity to get on trains. It was a simple, very efficient,
fast way to get across the country quickly to where
the work was right. And as these people who numbered in.

(03:39):
Let's see, in UH nineteen eleven, UH there was a
guy named Professor at Lale Shafei who in a hit
piece called what Tramps Cost the Nation, he estimated that
the population of migratory train train writers was over seven
hundred thousand. Huge number. And a lot of these guys

(04:02):
were writing not only inside the box cars like you
know we think of, but they were riding underneath the cars.
They were balanced on the you know, the suspension of
the train really very very precarious positions, and they were
hanging on for long long period of time. There's a
there's a real skill to riding trains, as we'll find out,
you know, there's a there's a lot to it. There's
some there's some rules, there's some safety rules. UM. But

(04:24):
back then, I wonder, I wonder how it was it
wasn't much more dangerous back in the in the depression era?
Was it was it less dangerous back then. And I'm
not talking about simply the physical dangers of the train itself,
because I think that's it remained it constant. I think
that the I wonder if it was the people aspect
of the whole thing, the people that you would counter
along the way. If I wonder if there's more dangerous
than versus today. Yeah, that's that's a good question, because

(04:49):
we can talk about some of the seedy underbelly that
a life such as this necessarily entails. Yeah, and you
know what, we're gonna talk about both sides of this too.
Gonna keep it. We'll trying to keep a balance, right right. Oh,
And before we go any further, ladies and gentlemen, what
we will be talking about will involve the methods people

(05:10):
used to get on trains. Will tell you something a
little bit about the lifestyle, a little bit about the
differences in modern trains and pass trains. And while we
say all of this just to be very clear to
the railroad bulls, the radio bulls, if such a thing exists,
we are not recommending doing this. Trains are dangerous. We

(05:31):
have called trains the apex predator of the road before. Yeah,
they're absolutely deadly. And you'll hear if you listen to
any interviews with hobos or tramps, they will tell you
that one of the the thing that you need to
be most afraid of is the train itself. And and
that's no lie that it will cut you right in half.
It's it's a very dangerous thing to do. We're not

(05:52):
condoning it, we're just explaining it. That's all right. The
lucky people lose a limb, yeah, and the other ones die. Oh,
and you see it often. It happens a lot. There's
a lot of railroad deaths that happen every year because
of this. I don't even if in the thousands it is,
um it's huge. It's a huge, huge number and probably
an unreported number. Right, and we can we can talk
about some of that as well. But again, just to

(06:13):
lay the disclaimer out there, what Chuck would probably call
the c y ah, we've got we uh. We want
to be clear that we are not necessarily condoning this.
But it is fascinating because this is not just a practice.
There is an entire culture which exists invisible to mainstream America.

(06:34):
And we'll tell you a little bit about some of
the ways you can see this culture if you happen
to be walking by a railroad show. It's one of
those things that once you know, you see it everywhere,
or you see it and the places that you expected
to see it expect to see it then. Um. And
and that's the way it is with that that code
that you mentioned, the hobo code. Um, that is the
way it is with You may look at individuals that

(06:55):
you see on the street in your city a little differently.
You may not have understood where they're coming from, or
where they've where they've gone to for the last couple
of months, but now they're back again. Uh. You may
you may not have known that those people were rail
riders or you know, train hoppers are freight hopping people
or whatever they want to call them. Um again, hobos
is not a term that they deny they had. In fact,
they embraced that term. So you know, as we say,

(07:18):
hobo is a long way again, I don't think we're
being you know, any way disparaging. Yeah, exactly. Well here's
another thing too. It's an interesting word because no one's
quite sure where the where the etymology of that word goes,
we don't know. We do know that in the nineties
in California there was a surge in the use of
the term hobo and printed material, But we don't we

(07:39):
don't know the first person who was it was it
a judge said you hobo? Maybe, I mean, but see
forty years later, that's when this whole thing became I
guess you could say popular. It wasn't popular. It was
necessary at that point really for a lot of people
during the depression. So, um, you know, there's a long,
long period of time when you know, between when the
name was first used and then when it was much

(08:00):
more commonplace, I guess, and in at least in American culture.
And that's the classic image you get, right, like you said,
with the bendle you know, over the shoulder. Um, you know,
everything that you own in the world is in that pack,
and and you're headed out to hopefully find work, you know,
picking apples or something, you know, whatever, you whatever your
your ambitions are. Yeah, we can we can spend a
little bit of time in the history here because I

(08:21):
have some I have a disturbing thing about the song
Big Rock Candy Mountain. Really, Okay, you've heard that song,
I don't. I don't know if I have or not.
Big Rock Candy Mountain. It's a it's a song that
is traditionally sung as it's from the viewpoint of the

(08:41):
way we hear it now, it's from the viewpoint of
a homeless migratory worker, a hobo or tramp, who is
singing of a place called Big Rock Candy Mountain, where
it is a bums version of paradise. So one of
the lyrics is and the Big Rock Candy Mountains, there's

(09:02):
a land that's fair and bright, where the handouts grow
on bushes and you sleep out every night, where the
box cars all are empty, and the sun shines every day,
and the birds and the bees and the cigarette trees,
the lemonade springs, the bluebird sings in the Big Rock
Candy Mountain. It's like this um strangely limited version of paradise. Right. However,

(09:22):
the original ending lyric ending passage changes the meaning of
the song because it alludes to a dark reality of
these people riding the rails. And it turns out in
the last stanza that this bum who is singing this
song and telling this wild Tale of the Big Rock

(09:43):
Candy Mountain is trying to sucker this young boy into
following him into a train car. Yeah, okay, Yeah, there's
there's a lot of rumors about stuff like this that
happens on trains. I mean there's bad cats that you'll
run across. Even now, it's not it's not necessarily a
safe place. Yeah, oh no, no, one not by any means.

(10:04):
In fact, they take a lot of modern day hobos
will take precautions against that sort of thing with by
by different means that either armed themselves maybe. Oh that's
a big one. You'll often see these, uh, I guess
land rovers. I don't know what you call about. People
that you know, walk in your city, you know, kind
of hanging out in the field for a while and
waiting for catch the next train. They've got a dog

(10:25):
with him, and you think, well, what what is the
homeless person doing with a dog? That's just an extra
mouth to feed, right, And sometimes people look down on
that and say how irresponsible, that's unfair to the dog.
Oh yeah, they'll say that. But the thing is they
if they were to talk to them, they'll probably find
out that the dog eats better than the hobo does.
And they would also find out that there's a purpose

(10:46):
behind having that dog with you, and that is because
a dog tends to will can scare away somebody, a
bad person who's approaching you at night when you're sleeping. Uh,
they will be very sensitive to the fact that somebody's
you know, rummaging through your your personal items. Um, you know,
it's just it's good protection. It's a it's it's a
smart move on their part. And again, yeah, it is
an extra mouth to feed when you're on the road,

(11:06):
and that's probably tough when you're you know, really scraping
for every dollar, um in many cases. But um, yeah,
I think it's as smart move. And also, you know,
some of them will arm themselves in addition to having
a dog, will also have you know, knives, will also
have uh possibly handguns in some cases. But a handgun
is risky in case you get caught. It's it's it's

(11:28):
more rare for them to carry a handgun that it
would be to carry a knife. It's more much more
common to carry a knife in this situation, and knives
are just as dangerous and close quarters, if not more so. Yeah, exactly,
exactly so. Um, then we can talk about, you know,
advantages and disadvantages, and we can talk about safety, we
can talk about, you know, just some of the common
sense things that modern hobos need to do, or even

(11:49):
just hoboes in general need to do. Um, there's there's
so many angles that there's slang along the way. Uh,
there's also there's there's a festival that we need to
talk about even. Um. A couple of trends in in
train writing. This is a this is a weird trainsurfing thing. Um.
So what do you want to do next? Well, let's okay,
you're right, we have an embarrassment of riches. Maybe let's

(12:12):
talk a little bit about the type of freight cars
these folks are writing. Sounds good, and then we'll also
look at maybe how they get to the right train
on time. All right, okay, so there are a uh
there there are multiple types of freight rail right, or

(12:33):
rolling stock as it's called, and we call them freight
cars in the US. You might hear them called trucks
in the UK. Originally there were only a few types.
There was the flat wagon or the flat car, which
we've all seen before. It just looks like it's waiting
for that cargo container to be knocked on it. There's
the box car which has the side openings, and we

(12:53):
see that a lot in um fictionalized depictions, right because
as we know in the in the post nine eleven society,
a lot of those formerly open box cars are sealed
tight and it's very difficult to get in them, which
makes sense. Then you might see a refrigerator car which

(13:16):
is also going to be sealed tight. I don't know
how you would get in there, and the question is
would you want to? You would not want to. It
would be dangerous. And then there's there's one that is
common also called the gonda gondola. Yeah, that's the kind
you'll see like like loose material like grain, yeah, or coal,
you know, stuff like that. So yeah, stone of some kind,

(13:37):
maybe um or any other substance that you can you know,
scoop and dump into the into the gondola. And that
is that's a common one, I think because you can ride,
you got a good view. It's open air, so there's
a you know a lot of a lot of wind
coming through. But but you know, if the if the
temperature is right and if the conditions are right, then
that might be a decent one to ride, but it's
also not visible to pedestrians. Yeah, it's not like if

(14:02):
you are forced to ride nested in between two cars,
you know, just ducking under the angle of the of
the gondola or something, people might see you when the
train rolls through. And this is critical because and if
you if you don't know this about the hobo culture, Uh,
one of the key points of being being a hobo,

(14:24):
being a modern hobo, is that you're not seen. And
I think that that's true in the past as well.
It's just that you didn't you don't want to be
seen hanging onto one of these cars or or inside
one of these cars because you know, who knows, that
might be a police officer that you just passed at
the next at the next intersection, so and they'll call
ahead to the next train station and have you arrested
when you get off, and then we'll talk about fines

(14:45):
and all that stuff later and what happens when you're Yeah,
it varies greatly from country country, but um, it's really
really critical that you're not spotted. So you know, there's
bad advice to to to where neon colors are bright
red or something like that. You want to dressed in
in darker like I guess earth tone colors. You know
that that kind of matched the trains. You can picture

(15:06):
what I'm talking about, like a burgundy or black or
brown well in scott listeners, you may have seen these
people before with a big backpack, maybe dog with bandanna
and they also have a bandana, and we'll explain why
those bandannas exist too. Uh and maybe looks like they
haven't taken in a shower in a while, just because

(15:27):
it's dirty. It's a dirty situation, right this, well, yeah,
you know, and not only I was thinking about this,
and and I've seen people that have this appearance and
it almost seems like they're covered in in like brown,
like a light brown dust. Yes, and you know what
that is. It's probably rail rail dust, you know, coming
from the wheels and the and the rails. I bet
they're covered in iron dust and uh, and of course
they get smudged and smeared on you. And the trains

(15:49):
themselves are dirty, you know, like just you know, soil
as well grease and all that. But um, yeah, some
of these people don't have a chance to shower for
a long long periods of time. But the but the clothing,
if we if we don't skip over this for is
one second. It's one of the things I noticed that
on all these these forms, because a lot of people
get together and talk about, you know, train hopping on forms,
on online forms, they're a little more high tech, you

(16:11):
might think now, But they they choose to eat, to
wear like real heavy leather boots. You don't wear tennis
shoes because well it's for obvious reasons, protective feet makes
it makes perfect sense. Yet long they were they wear
long pants because you don't want to burn your legs
on anything, you know, whether it's hot machinery or if
it's on just hot metal or freezier legs. I guess,

(16:32):
you know, on something that's really cold and cold metal. Um,
you want to wear something that a lot of people
wear suspenders, UM suspenders and not suspenders UM over overalls,
I guess would be like the one piece things you
know they go over and uh and um hats and
you know bandanas. Again, leather gloves is big. You need
to have a good set of leather gloves so that
when you're grabbing onto rusty, jagged materials, you don't you

(16:55):
don't cut your hands to shreds. So that's critical as well.
There's there's a lot of really, i mean just common
sense items that these modern hoboes need that, um, it's
just good common A cell phone is probably common also
for the ability to contact outside, because these are people
with families many of them, or friends or maybe a

(17:16):
contact who doesn't travel that they can hit up when
they you know, when they cruise into the rail rail
yard over there by Little Five Points here in Atlanta.
This is a specific, concrete example, folks, because where Scott
and Nolan I are in Atlanta, we're just a stone's
throwaway figuratively speaking, from a pretty large rail yard in

(17:39):
Atlanta is definitely a rail hub. It's a railtown. So
depending on the time of year and maybe the time
of the month, you might see uh an influx of
people who are coming from that rail yard to Little
Five Points, and you might see some of the same
folks come and go over the years. In return. This

(18:02):
is a real thing, now, Scott, you and I were
talking with one of our colleagues and editor, Katherine, and
she and another editor of ours, Allison, had asked us
if modern hobos still existed. Well, the concept of the
old time hobo with both a moral code that was

(18:27):
understood by all hobos and with a physical code to
communicate with hobos. Uh, regardless of time or distance. That exists.
But it's fading out, and it is being replaced, however,
by another type of population, which was what we're talking
about when we're talking about these modern hobos. And there's
still thousands and thousands of folks right in the rail

(18:50):
for one reason or another, Some for adventure, some because
they slipped through the cracks of society or they don't
want to participate in it. Yeah, there were a number
of situation, I guess family situations that I heard about
or read about along the way. Because there's some there's
some you know video interviews of these folks, you know,
near the near the train tracks. Uh. There's also you
know a lot of firsthand accounts, like almost like diary

(19:12):
entries that you can read online, stories that were written
by hobos and man, some of these are just heartbreaking
tales and why they decided to kind of just drop
out of society. Um, you know, like yeah, I mean
just just wanting one quick example will give you like
one idea of why somebody might do this, Like this
young guy, I mean really really young. He's probably nineteen
maybe twenty. Uh. He was talking about how he was

(19:34):
living at home and everyone's going just fine. He had
a nice girlfriend. His girlfriend was raped, and then she
couldn't deal with the pressure, you know, the the the whatever,
the mental situation after that, she killed herself and he
went just just went crazy. I mean, he he couldn't
take it anymore, the pressure and you know, the the
the the social stigma, I guess that goes along with

(19:54):
all this, and you know, like the the everything he
had to deal with. And he said, you know what,
I just for a while, I just got to get
away from there. And that's why I started riding the rails.
And then once he started doing that, he got kind
of caught up in it, and he decided that, you know,
this is what I want to do for a while
at least, and so I can really get things together
and then come back and then re establish myself in
my community, in my family, and you can kind of
make everything right again. But I really need this time

(20:16):
away to to set myself straight. And other people, you know,
of course, are some people are fleeing, uh, you know,
rest warrants or child support payments or possible Uh, this
is a bad one sex offender status, you know that
they have to report in. So a lot of people
just say, I'm just gonna live a transient life. I'm
gonna be a drifter, um and uh and live that
lifestyle to kind of avoid all that all those legal responsibilities.

(20:39):
But the danger with them them is that if they
are ever caught, you know, for something as minor is
hopping a train, and I say minor, it varies, but
you're relatively minor, it's a trespassing Yeah, yeah, exactly, So
it varies and fines and everything. But if you're caught
with that, you're gonna have to face the charges that
you that you ran away from. I mean, it's kinda

(21:00):
catch up, right, And if you live in this sort
of lifestyle, even if you don't have any priors and
you live in this sort of lifestyle, then eventually, over
time you will, you know, get a ticket, and then
you'll get a ticket for failing to appear in court,
and these little things can add up. Yeah sure, and
then you become a I guess you've become a wanted fugitive.
Really at that point, some people, um even use trains

(21:22):
to you know, cross borders. Uh so you know there's
an immigration situation going on with some people. Um, that's
a lot tougher because they're very strict at those uh
at those border crossing locations. They know what to watch for.
They they're really watching those trains carefully. Yeah, of course
they are. And I just have to mention one of
my favorite scenes. I think we mentioned it in Nuts

(21:44):
and Bolts, the train robbery. Oh yeah, it's just so
impressive and for anyone who hasn't watched Breaking Bad, and
I guarantee you you will enjoy parts of it and
one of the if only the train highst if only
if me to watch The Great Train Robbery. You should
check out that show. And that liquid, by the way,

(22:04):
was methylemine. Methy lemine. Yeah, we couldn't think of the
the liquid at the time, and it was. It was methylmine,
but a huge amount of it. And what a fascinated
scene and a fairly realistic for our purposes today, a
fairly realistic depiction of how difficult it would be to
attempt to rob a train. So this is another look

(22:25):
at train crime. This is what we're really talking about,
train crime and I'm not saying that these are bad
people who are who are hopping the rail, the riding
freight from one way to another. They are doing something dangerous,
you know. But this is also part of a longstanding tradition.
Ernest Hemingway was a train hopper, right, And people have

(22:47):
ridden trains not just for adventure but also for necessity.
And it's across the world. It's way more common in
other parts of the world than it is here in
the US. But we will tell you some of the
techniques that people use to hop on trains. Now we
say this as outsiders, and we also say this as

(23:07):
people concern with they're safety. So if you are a
practicing Baga Bond, if you are a modern day train hopper,
then I want to established first we're not going to
reveal any of the I think we should respect to
this community right and not reveal too many of their secrets,
especially there the closely held ones which we probably don't

(23:29):
know of course we have closely held. They're closely held. Okay,
So let's say that you listeners have had enough of society,
You've had it up to here and concern it you
can't take anymore. So you say I am going to
hit the Iron I'm gonna I'm gonna take the Iron Road.
Don't say you're gonna take the westbound, though, because that
means he died, Yeah, the west That's part of the slag.

(23:51):
If someone takes the westbound train, that means they have
died so differently. But let's just say that you are
headed out, You're you're you're done with whatever you're said.
Suation is right, now, what what's the first step? Like,
how do you how are you gonna get on that train?
I mean, if you planned everything out, you have the
right clothing, you have your packs with your pots and pans,
and your your change of socks and all that stuff,

(24:11):
how are you gonna get on that The first thing
that you do is find the rail yard and observed carefully.
Don't don't count on just standing somewhere near where your
your town has a train track that rolls across the road.
The train is probably gonna be going too fast for
you to hop on, especially now, And even if it

(24:34):
looks like it's going slow while you're standing there, the
closer you'll get, the more realistically you'll see the speed.
It's very deceptive. Yeah, I guess the The general rule
of thumb is never jump on a train and is
moving faster than you can run. Yeah. Yeah, that's a
great rule of thumb. And also if you can avoid it,
don't don't feel like you have to jump on a train.
So you want to find ideally a rail lyard. A

(24:56):
rail lyard will be placed where many railroad tracks con
urge and different freight or different you know, junk cars
or or whatever. They switch out containers and they change
their route maybe they maybe they had you know, north
or south or east. They change directions. So let's see
you find one of those places. The very first thing,

(25:17):
don't just go in and try to hop on a train.
The first thing you probably should do, or the following one,
observe for as much time as you can the motions
of the rail yard. Get to feel the rhythm of it.
When does when does the uh? When does the staff change?
What do those sounds mean? Right? Yeah, that's right. I

(25:39):
mean a lot of these people really know how to
read a train and how to read what what the
situation is is telling them. I mean it's a you know,
the train will I think they call it air up
at a certain point, and that's when you can hear
the brakes releasing and the train begins to roll very
very slowly at that point, and a lot of them
that's when they spring into action, is when it first
begins to move or just before it stops. And you

(26:00):
have to know exactly when all this stuff is gonna happen,
and where is the smart time to make your move? Right? Yeah,
and you might find uh, you can still you can
still catch one on the fly jump on a slow
moving train, but ideally, if you observe this stuff, you
will find the precise moment to go. And uh, you

(26:22):
know you're gonna have to get over some fencing right
then as soon as you go over the fence, that
counts as that's your trespassing charge. Yeah, so you need
to be careful from that point forward. Not that so
much when you get right on the train, but when
you are on their property and you're not necessarily alone
in this because it is not unusual for other people
who are traveling to have a camp but what used

(26:43):
to be called a hobo jungle right uh nearby, and
that's where you can talk with people who may know
the yard better or more experience. Okay, can I say
something here. I think this is important. Uh if this
is your first time doing this, Uh, if you wait
in their very carefully, because some people are very territorial
about this kind of thing as well. Uh, they don't look,

(27:04):
you know, too kindly on somebody who is maybe just
trying this out for a weekend and yeah, you got
a you know, a nice full credit card, and you're
you've got brand new gear and you're gonna hop on
the train with them. Who you know, the person who
does it as a lifestyle, you know, they they they
truly live and breathe this every day, and they will
spot you quickly that you're a brand new person doing this.

(27:25):
Maybe that's not so bad. You might find somebody who
is very helpful and will be mentor yeah, more than
happy to help you along the way. That I don't
know that. Man, You've got to be really really careful
and and pick and choose who you talk to there,
I would think, and be very careful about what information
you reveal about yourself. Oh yeah, because that can be
used against you at any point. Really, I mean, it's

(27:45):
a it's a it's a brutal world, really, I mean
it really is. It can be it can be So
let's say though in this for the sake of this
argument and get the recommendation, or you know what, let's
say that this is not your first time in the
railroad rodeo. I can't believe I said that without stuttering.
Thanks man, Let's say that people are familiar with you. Right,

(28:07):
you have passed one of the first marks of respect,
which is that someone has given you a name, right,
which you can't give yourself. But there's one thing missing.
To really be accepted in this community, you must find
one of the most secret documents that exists in public America.
It's not classified, but you will not find it online.

(28:31):
And if we if we ever find stuff like that online, uh,
and it's within our power, we delete it out of
respect for this community. Sure, yeah, there are there are
forms where people have posted it, and the backlash against
the people that do post something like that is tremendous.
I mean, there's a there's a just a hatred for
somebody who puts this online because it is it is

(28:52):
held so dearly in this community that it's a secret
document to them. Really, yeah, So what's it called. It's
it's really intrigued. I'll tell you that. What's it called
the crew Changed Guide, the crew change Guide, and that
tells you kind of the inner workings of um, the
whole system, really, right, Yeah, associated with a fellow known

(29:13):
as the train doctor trained doctor. Uh. The crew Changed
Guide is a cop as a is a guide to
the schedules and directions of various railroad yards. So when
do uh, when do the cruise on the train switch out?
Of course, which means the train has to be emotionless

(29:33):
for some time? Right? Where are they heading? And where
are the best spots? What should you avoid? What has changed? All?
Of course, all private rail companies have their own internal
versions of this, uh, but these might change and there
and at any given time. And they're also relatively obscure

(29:55):
or secretive due to national security, due to concerns about
you stolen property or something. Because again, it's so easy
for us to forget how heavily reliant the US economy
is on rail. Yeah, that's true, it really is. And
you know you you said that it's held very close.
I mean they really treasured this document from hand to hand. Yeah,

(30:16):
there's there's only one way to get it. And you
have to know, I guess a seasoned hobo that has
this document that will then give you a copy or
his copy even something recommend to. Yeah, exactly, So that's
not something you're gonna get your hands on right away.
Uh So, in other words, the youngsters, the ones that
are just beginning, they really have to watch and learn

(30:37):
what is happening at those train yards. And that's and
that in itself is very difficult to do. As you said,
I mean you I would say that the planning for
this is planning. It's really key. It's it's also um
that's got to take a long long time to learn,
you know, kind of the ins and out before you
even venture into your first ride. Yeah. Oh, I think
there are quite a few people who have probably just hopped,

(30:57):
just met somebody who was going to do it, and
then opped on the train with them. Yeah. Some maybe
you got lucky doing that, and others probably had a
maybe the worst experience of their life doing trial by fire.
But also it's got um we we can't forget that
people don't always have the opportunity to plan, and that
human beings are creatures of amazing ingenuity. So if they

(31:20):
have to learn to survive, then they will learn very quick. Yeah.
I think you're right. I absolutely agree. I think you
can adapt to that situation and make it work for you.
But man, some of these stories they're just I mean,
they'll just put your hair on. And some of these stories,
I mean, they really are unbelievable. Some of them are
are are good stories. Some of them are great stories
about things people have seen, because that's one of the uh,

(31:41):
you know, one of the advantages of this, I guess
is that a lot of people say, I get to
see parts of the country that no one knows. No
one else. Well, maybe, but here's the thing with the conductor,
the conductors in in the cab, you know, up in
the front of the train. He's got a window view.
If you're on top of a train, or if you're
you've got a you know, a three year and sixty
degree view or a degree view, panoramic view, you're seeing

(32:05):
things that really not many people get to see. I mean,
of course there's the interstate system, which is enormous, but
you don't get to see everything that people that ride
trains get to see. Um, it's just it's it's a
different set of scenery in America. It's a hidden America.
It's the same, it's the same kind of experience that
drives people out into our vast national forest where you

(32:28):
can disappear. This brings me to a bigger point, Scott,
which is that here in the States, we sometimes forget,
you know, with all this surveillance and social media and stuff,
we sometimes forget that there are places where you can
legitimately disappear. You can you can leave. You don't have
to just leave America by hopping on a plane or

(32:51):
riding a boat. You can leave America and still live here,
just invisibly, right. And it's a weird thought, isn't it that.
And we're here in Atlanta and it's extremely crowded. I
mean there's no where there's no where you can go
for any privacy, not even in this building. You can't
even go anywhere for privacy. So it's it's tough to
remember that. You know, out West, and you know other

(33:13):
places across you know, the Midwest, even there are places
where you just don't see. I mean there's nothing in sight,
there's no no person in sight. Rather um so you really,
you truly can get lost within the United States. It's
very very easy. There's vast open spaces still and that's
true for a lot of countries, of course. I mean
along the shorelines are gonna have the big cities that made,
you know, the mass crowding of of industrial areas or whatever.

(33:37):
But once you get out into the you know, the
the outreaches, you know, past the city limits, into the
mountains or into the into the desert in some cases,
or wherever these train tracks cross. Um, it's wide open,
wide open spaces, which of course does mean that is dangerous.
Uh if you are in your situation where all of
a sudden you're in the middle of nowhere with someone

(33:58):
and they decide they like your stuff more than they
like you. Yeah, and that happens too. I mean there's
a lot of railway murders that happened. Uh. You know,
there's even a couple, there's a couple of serial killers
that have been caught that were um, you know, working
the rails. I guess if you want to put it
about that, yeah, let's do it. I mean there's a
there's a few and I only have a couple of
examples here, but there are more. Um, let's see. I

(34:21):
think the one that immediately came to mind was the
guy that they called the box car killer. That is
Robert Joseph Silveria Jr. And Uh, I think he worked
somewhere around. I'd like to work. I keep saying work.
I mean that's a terrible way to put up operated. Yeah.
Um in a fifteen year time span between one and
I think, and he was responsible for something like fifteen murders.

(34:45):
But then they said that he confessed to murders. And
of course he was a rail writer. He was just
killing his fellow writers along the way. Along with fifteen years. Um.
Then there was another guy, I believe he was a
Mexican citizen who operated in the US and in Mexico
in the nineteen nineties, and he killed also fifteen people.
His name was um Angel Maturino Rescindez, and um, I

(35:08):
have a bad guy. They called him the railway killer.
So you know, there's variations of this along the way,
but they're all railway focused or you know, somehow you know,
other killing other railway riders. Right, yes, because it is
a place where there is less law enforcement. And if
there's less rule of law, then it is easier for um,
it's easier for predators to get by. Another good reason

(35:31):
to keep a dog with you. Another great reason to
keep a dog with you, and to be careful what
you reveal about yourself when and where you sleep. There's
there's so many you know, do this, don't do that
type of situation. He's got an interesting thing about the
first one, the box car killer. Uh. He was a
member of a criminal gang. Oh no kidding, the Freight

(35:51):
Train Riders of America, which is a relatively innocuous name.
There is a freight train gang, the ftr A. I
didn't know that. It's a of um homeless transients who
move about in railroad cars. Uh. Their linked to many
violent crimes there. They operate within the northwestern US. Uh.

(36:11):
They you can trace their origin uh to four in Montana.
A group of Vietnam veterans started this. They claim to
be and here's where the story is different. Okay. They
claim to be a group of people who organized to
support each other mutually. Right, and we could talk about
some of the amazing acts of support and generosity and

(36:35):
communication we see in this culture. But of course the
US government Uncle Sam doesn't agree with them. Uh. In
there were an estimated one thousand or more f t
r A members And then you'll hear estimates that range
from AMO as low as six hundred to as high
as three thousand. They're most likely encountered on the B

(36:58):
and S F Railways eye line that goes from Chicago
to Seattle. They sleep in switching yards, bridge underpasses, box cars. Uh.
The well, let me tell you something. If you're going
on a train from Chicago to Seattle, that's a lot
of distance in between. I do not like those odds
of getting on a train and not having one of
these gang members on there. If there if there are

(37:19):
as many as three thousands, oh I see. Yeah. I
think three thousand though was a high end. And every
encounter is not going to be deadly, of course, I
get that, you know, but but there's gonna be variations
of that. There's gonna be theft, there could be you know, yeah,
some type of fight situation where you're you're harmed in
some way physically. Uh, there's just all all kinds of things,
and more than likely they're gonna take your gear. Um,

(37:40):
and we've we've said that a few times now. It's
not just you know, like my wool socks or whatever.
But well, these guys carry cell phones and knives and sleep, yeah,
sleeping bag, you know. The Okay, well that's not but
the like the pack that they carry is probably expensive.
They carry police scanners. We didn't mention that. Oh yeah,
to be able to hear the radio communication of the

(38:02):
train and the train workers. Yeah. So the bulls, right,
the bulls are something we haven't even talked about. But
when you get into these these lots, if if uh,
you know, the people that are looking for you're called bulls,
and there's gonna be city bulls, which are kind of
like the local guys, you know, local police or whatever
that the police that train station and there, um, they
tend to be a little more leaning on you. Then
would be the federal bulls. Now, the federal bulls are

(38:24):
the ones that you're probably gonna find around the borders
and those border bulls. The federal bulls rather apparently if
you run off the property, you know, like they see
you on your tray on the train, but you get away,
they will track you down. If it doesn't matter if
it's your three or four miles away at this point,
having having lunch and a diner somewhere, if they see you, yeah,
if they can find you, they're they're they're very active

(38:47):
in catching somebody because they feel that, you know, in
those situations, a lot of times it's a an immigration situation,
so they're they're very um focused on getting you back
to are capturing you. I guess, well, yeah, and according
to the federal party line, uh, the idea of infiltrating
the US by railroad car is a possible terrorist threat. Yeah,

(39:08):
and I could see you know, certain types of cargo.
You know. Let's see, you have a train and it
also happens to be UM, you know train that is
unmarked or whatever, but it's carrying you know, money from
a U. S. Mint or something you know, and you
don't know that, but you know there's gonna be federal
UM officers watching that train the whole way. You don't
have any ideunitions for install Oh yeah, that's another big one.

(39:29):
If there's any type of military UM material on board
of any kind. I mean, whether it's machinery or or munitions.
As you said, UM, all the stuff you don't you
don't know what else is on the train with you,
and that that could be dangerous as well. So a
lot of different danger angles here. I mean I think
in one of these places I saw the top disadvantage
of train hopping was that death is around every corner.

(39:50):
Now that's a huge it's a huge disadvantage when the
Hitchhike and Wicked ye had number one is death is
around every corner, right from one reason or another. I
just want to clarify one thing about the f t
r A before we move along. The founder a guy
named Daniel Boone. And Daniel Boone come on, yea, And
so he calls himself, Okay, okay, it's a it's a

(40:11):
hobo name. I don't know. I wonder because there's some
colorful hobo names for sure. Well, maybe that can be
Noel's nickname for this episode, Noel Daniel Boone. That's too long.
As a gang leader, it's a gang leader. Well he's
Daniel Boone. This character says that f t r A
was founded on the basis of camaraderie, not as a
criminal organization. So maybe it grew into something else. And

(40:34):
there's still debate, of course, onto whether it is actually
a gang. But I'll tell you what, I don't want
to be involved. I don't I don't want to be
uh involved with someone who is writing that high line
and wearing a what is it wearing a black bandana
with a conk for a slide. It was really elite.

(40:55):
F TR also watch out for that. So if you
ever see that when you hop on a train, you
might as well just hop right back off. Well that's
that's the information we have. You know, again, I don't
know how much of that is. I don't know how accurate. No,
the beard brown, nol the beard. Yeah, the beard, but
we just call him the beard. The beard. Yeah, the beard.
That's not bad. I was thinking nold boxcar brown, because

(41:16):
boxcar was nicknamed one of us got at some point,
just box car brown, boxcar brown. I like the Actually
like that. I like that's pretty good. Yeah, no old
box scar brown. So uh, we should shift focus a
little bit to something a little more positive. So let's
say that you have been a veteran vagabond. You've traveled

(41:38):
around the high lines and the low lines, the East
coast in the West. You've seen the world it was
meant to be seen and now, and you've made a
lot of friends on the way. But it's so hard
to meet people again, right and see them as you're
passing through different things. What if there was some kind
of thing, maybe once a year, where where all of

(42:00):
the all of the hobos and vagabonds and tramps got
together like a hobo jamboree or something something. Yeah, yeah,
I like, but not exactly, not exactly what do they
call it? It's called something else, right, Uh, the Hobo Convention,
the National Hobo Convention, the Hobo Convention. I couldn't think
of the word right there, but jamboree seems to fit,
doesn't really better, but uh, you know, we're not in

(42:21):
charge of the name. Alright. So the National Hobo Convention
that's held in britt Iowa every year, and I guess
as this would be the one hundred and sixteenth year
of this Hobo Convention, believe it. Yeah, And it's it's
kind of it sounds like kind of a cool thing.
I don't know, it's in a way, it's a little sketchy.
I mean, I mean, for obvious reasons, I think. I mean,
it's just it's strange to invite any hobo that can

(42:45):
make it there to your town, isn't it. Don't you
think that's strange? I do. It is the largest gathering
of hobo's, rail writers and tramps, and they have things
like um, okay, they have like free breakfast and dinner.
I mean, in fact, everything is free there doesn't matter.
Like a lot of people bring um items, you know,
is to kind of hand out. They have items, you know,
like things that people might need, like pots and pans
and things. People. Yeah, yeah, they trade, sure, they trade

(43:08):
um equipment and stuff like that. It's it's really kind
of interesting. They all camp out there. Um, they have campfires.
They they create something called mulligan stew. I think it
was that the servant side of a barrel. And really
mulligan stew is just kind of whatever you have on
hand and then it's uh, you know, mixed into this
one big kind of hobo stew that they call mulligan stew. Um.
From what I hear, it's delicious. I don't know if

(43:30):
I can't really verify that in any way. It depends
on when you get it. That's probably true and how
hungry you are, really honestly, but they have, um, they
have wedding ceremonies that happened there at this event. They
have a parade every year where the hoboes will be
you know, on the backs of you know, tractors or
whatever is they hay wagons as they pull them through
town and uh, you know, the hold up signs like

(43:51):
vote for you know, Hobo jim for you know, the
what is the Hobo King and Queen of the of
the whole event that year, and they vote, the hobos
themselves vote on the king and queen, and they crowned
them at the end of the ceremony or the whole
the whole weekend the convention. Brother, And it's kind of
a prestigious thing for the hobos, right. It is also

(44:11):
I want to go back to something you mentioned there,
and I don't want to bury the lead here, Scott.
It is strange you said that a town would invite
any hobo to come and hang out, and that's key
because this is organized by the Chamber of Commerce in
britt Iowa. Strange, isn't it. I mean? But again, hundred
and sixteen year tradition at this point. Honestly, I don't

(44:33):
think they have a lot of trouble when these guys
come into town. There's really not you know, what you
would expect, you know, I mean just kind of in
a general sense. You know, if you invite a thousand
hobos to your town, it just doesn't doesn't happen that way.
It seems to be a group that's just really excited
about being together and having fun, sharing stories about being
on the road. Again. The campfire, I guess, is something

(44:53):
not to be missed. You know. They a lot of
people sing and dance and tell old stories and you know,
some news stories. It's it's really it sounds like a
nice event, it really does. Here's the prestigious thing, um
about being King of the Hobos or Queen of the Hobos.
You can only be selected, like the candidate for King
or Queen of Hobos can only be selected by a

(45:14):
panel of former Hobo kings. Really yeah, wow, which to me,
I would give. I would give so much to be
a fly on the wall in that room, you know.
I saw also that if you're elected king or queen,
you have your portrait painted by lady in town there um,
and they have portraits that go all the way back
to the beginning, and I think they she she did
the portraits of uh, some of the previous winners, you know,

(45:36):
based on photographs from the events, you know, back in
the early days. She's only started doing this maybe in
the last thirty or so years. But if you were
elected king or queen, you get your portrait painted once.
So there are many times where king or queen will
be elected more than once, based on you know, whatever
situation they have. They I think they get thirty seconds
to make an appeal to the crowd, you know, like
why I should be king or queen, and that thirty

(45:58):
seconds is all you get for for your um, your
kind of your your entire run at the presidents or
not the presidency at the at ther stu speech, Yeah, yeah, exactly.
That's there's also if you're a king or queen the
hobos even once, then you can be interred for free
in the hobo cemetery. Yeah, there's yeah cemetery and uh

(46:18):
and they show respect by walking past and tapping their
hobo walking sticks on the on the gravestones as they
do that. But that the king and queen thing, I
don't know if I mentioned this. When you're painted, you
only get your portrait painted at once, and then they
just add to the plaque every year, so you don't
necessarily have, you know, five portraits of yourself. You have one,
but they'll add to the little carving at the bottom

(46:39):
that says this year and that year. And then also
there's a question too because there is dissension somewhat in
this community. There is a question like how genuine are
some of the people attending here? Are they would be hoboes?
Are the pseudo hoboes? Are they the real deal? You know?
So I can see why some people on the other
side would say that this is uh opposer thing, and

(47:01):
then why other people would say, well, we want real
hoboes here and not these Johnny come lately. So yeah,
I think you know, there's a set of rules for
the king and the queen, and I noted that on
the king rule list one of the things. I mean,
of course, you have to ride the rails if you're
if you're going to be counted as you know, even

(47:21):
um included as possible king. But on the queen list
you didn't have to ride the rails. Isn't that strange?
You don't have to, but you're still and I don't think, oh,
of course you're not. You're not evaluated by a jury
of your peers either. I think that um, the I
don't know if the male community votes for the queen
or not. I'm not sure exactly how that works, but uh,
read the rules and you'll understand what I mean. But

(47:42):
it's it's differing for king versus queen. Yeah. And you
can also read the the Ethical Code from the eighty
nine National Hobo Convention St. Louis, Missouri. That will give
you the idea of what what Scott and are talking
about when talk about these these ethical situations. And one

(48:03):
other thing I want to mention here is that one
of the you know, the little video clips that I
watched was of a a former winner, you know, former
king of this whole thing. And the guy was what
they called a bridger, and I've never heard the term
bridger before. And he is an older hobo who rode
both steam and diesel trains. And there's not many of
those guys left, you know, that were left over from

(48:24):
the steam day. So the guy that won that particular year,
I don't remember exactly what his name was, um, but
he again he rode steam engines as well as diesel
interest because diesel are the modern ones obviously. But man,
that that goes way back, that does go way back.
It's it is. I I know I've used the phrase before,
but it is a hidden history thing. So let's look

(48:47):
at um. Oh, and it's the second week of August
usually the convention if you want to go, yeah, that's right.
So if you if you want to look into that,
you know, maybe you can drive in or maybe even
who who knows, ride the rails in. Right, it's a
you we do not condoned. Oh that's right. Legally, do
not in any way encourage that. And Ben, you know what,
can I can I just interrupt for one second? Hopefully

(49:08):
this is the right direction to go with this. But
there's one thing that I really want to talk about
before we finish, and that is trainsurfing. Oh yeah, and
it's a it's a trend and they call it a trend.
But here's the thing. This trend kind of comes and goes.
It's like there's been some I know, I've seen old
black and white photos of people trainsurfing in Brazil. Uh.
You know, I'm back in the nineteen sixties or nineteen
seventies or maybe even before that. Uh, and and now

(49:31):
it's kind of it's more modern thing. I guess now
maybe it's the equipment they use now or what. But
trainsurfing is a is a strange phenomenon. Yes, absolutely, Okay.
So the idea is that you're standing on top of
the train, you know, at speed, and this is so dangerous.
I mean it's ridiculously dangerous. And you and if you
watch any of the videos of anybody doing this, you

(49:52):
just you cannot believe the chances these people are taking
because of you know, low bridges, um, you know, tunnels
of course, just just power line, Um, there's all kinds
of of course, just falling off the train itself. Yeah.
Now that's one thing. The speeds that the trains are
traveling are a lot faster than you might think. I mean,
they're really really moving along here. Some people train surf

(50:12):
on high speed trains and I did. I could not
believe on high speed rail. And you can also, um,
you can also asphyxiate in the tunnels, yeah, or breathing fumes,
which is why those bandannas are important. It's not just
an ornamental thing. So we got around to it. Yeah, yeah,
the bandanas. Yes, so they're they're meant as kind of
like a and um, a filter I suppose really. Yeah.

(50:34):
And while we're on the subject of train surfing, right,
let's talk about riding the rails in other countries just briefly.
Oh yeah, because that's it's very close to what you
see in other countries. Right, yes, So what what's the
what's the most egregious example of this bend that you've
ever seen? Because I think I know where you're gonna go. Yeah,
probably the most egregious examples that you and I have seen,

(50:56):
if not firsthand, are in Bangladesh in India, right, so
Asian writers on these trains, it's it seems to be
um it well, it's it's perfectly acceptable, I guess in
this in this culture to ride on the outside of
trains and and Ben, I've seen thousands of people on
a single train, uh you know, riding outside of the train,

(51:18):
not inside, but outside the train that that situation just
seems like like a powder kid ready to go off.
It's crazy. I mean, one person falls, seems like they
would take three or four people with them, right, Yeah, exactly.
There could be a domino effect. We're specifically talking about, um, yeah,
we're specifically talking about South Asia, but the train surfing
is common also in Russia and Australia. People ride the

(51:42):
rails in Australia. Yeah, you see, um some younger kids
that do it, um you know, and of course they
have the go pro cameras with them and you know
they've themselves strapped in and they've got ski goggles on
and you know, all sorts of gear. But some of
the risk that they take it's crazy. I've seen people,
um almost like there's one guy, this is an awful one.
Then I saw this online. It was a guy was

(52:04):
and I don't know where this happened. He was hanging
out of a box car. He had one hand on
on a rail um you know, on a handle rather
and he's kind of flinging his body out to the
outside the train, like his legs and his arms are
out and he's almost like doing a dance. It was
like a show off type thing, right. And as he's
doing this, uh, near the end of the clip, it's
like about a minute a half or so. Near the

(52:25):
end of this, you know of course goes along the
way and there's people actually cheering for this guy as
he's passing and then they're going really really fast. I mean,
it's really scary the guy and it's just cringe. It
makes you cringe when you know what's gonna happen. Because
it said it said, uh, you know, train surfing accident
or something, so he knows something's gonna happen. The guy
is hanging onto the rail and as they passed something,

(52:45):
I don't know if it's a telephone pole or what,
but it just smacks him right in the head and
he of course falls right below the train and that's it.
That's the end of the clip over. Yeah, that's it.
That's it, that's done. I mean, it was all for
that thrill of dancing on the side of this box car.
And I've seen other people that are a train riding,
you know, surfing on top of a train and they're
kind of like, you know, going through the motion of whatever.
They stand up and they don't realize that behind them

(53:07):
is a train trestle, you know, the one that goes
across the top with the end of the lights and everything,
and just knock them right off. And of course, you know,
you know the end results of that as well. Um,
and it's all kinds of versions of this. I mean,
we mentioned special equipment to people used for high speed rail.
They actually lock in with carabineers and um, they have
they have suction cups that they used to adhere themselves

(53:28):
to the outside of the train and it's sort of
it's it's not expected but in the in certain cultures,
they understand that that's the way some people get around,
and they kind of look the other way, right, or
it's a it's tolerated thing to some. In some places
it's even kind of condoned. I like, when you stay tolerated.
That's a better way to put it. Because they tolerated.
I think if they were able to catch them easily,

(53:50):
they would. But you know, of course these writers know
how to you know, quickly get away once the train
has stopped or just before it stops, so you know,
there's not much effort put into the pursuit because the
fine it might be in some places a couple of dollars,
like you know, as low as like two or three
dollars in some places. Other places like Australia I think,
has a very strict fine. Um it's like two hundred

(54:10):
and fifteen dollars or something like that. It's it's way
up there. So and um, in the United States you
get not only a huge fine, uh, you can also
you know, several hundred even thousands of dollars you can
get you can get jail time as well. Oh yes,
oh wait, wait before we get into that part though,
I just want to go back a little bit to
give everybody an idea of how fast these vehicles are going.

(54:31):
When we say high speed rail. Uh, let's take for example, Russia,
which is has several excellent examples of train surfing and
rail riding. So the highest, the fastest train in Russia
is the Volaro r U S E V S or
the sop Sun, and the sop Sun has a maximum
speed of a hundred and fifty five miles per hour.

(54:56):
If they do a new high speed line that will
allow for two hundred and seventeen miles, and you know what,
I would bet there's still gonna be people that are
trying to ride on the outside of that train, strapping
themselves in yet because they're right there. They're currently riding
on the one dred and fifty five mile in our version,
and I can't even imagine what that's like. That's gotta
be just terrifying the whole way. And they can also,

(55:16):
you know, if they're trying to set a record, they
can up the mileage that they wish. So in two
thousand nine, uh, they set a record traveling a hundred
and eighty miles an hour. You know what I think
I've seen that video of that train traveling across country
and they're following it with a helicopter. I believe. Yeah,
it's just it's unbelievable how fast that train looks because, um,

(55:39):
you know, you know, we hear of race cars traveling
you know, two hundred miles an hour or something like that, right,
and you see it on a racetrack, and the thing
is everything around it's moving at two d twohundred miles
an hour, you know, the cars around it, and and
generally there's a lot of space. It's not like they're, um,
you know, driving past telephone poles and you know railroad
passings and you know all our crossings rather and you
don't get a good since speed. That's why when you're

(56:01):
in an airplane and you're traveling at you know, fifty
miles an hour, you don't feel like you're traveling that
fast because there's nothing really to gauge, nothing around you traveling,
you know, passing that quickly. When you're seeing these trains,
these high speed trains traveling VI via this helicopter, you
can see you can see just how fast they are
as they pass some of these physical features on the land.

(56:23):
It's it's unbelievable. So I can't imagine trying to hang
onto the back end of that thing or trying to, um,
you know, just count on a carabineer that's holding you
in place, or a suction cop of some kind. It's ridiculous.
I don't I just don't get the risk involved in
in that particular. Um yeah, well a lot of it,
but I mean that that one in particular really frightens me.

(56:44):
And the strange thing about this to me, Scott, is
that this topic, which fascinates both of us, nobly fascinates
uh you as well, Folks. It brings us to more
questions than it does answers. Yeah, I've got a few
questions that maybe just kind of questions that I'd like
maybe you and I have talked about just for a
few minutes each, but the listeners. I'd love it if
the listeners would would think about this and write in

(57:06):
with their responses, because I know this is it's an
intriguing topic for sure. I'm glad. I'm really glad you
brought this up, this whole thing, because it's fascinating. I
really I wouldn't have looked into it otherwise unless unless
you had mentioned it, um, But I guess we'll start
out with a simple one here, and I think maybe
maybe it's not so simple. But we we talked about
kind of the modern hobos, right versus the old traditional,

(57:29):
the historic hobos. And a lot of these kids, you know,
they show up with brand new gear and they've got
the police scanners and they've got their cell phones everything,
and they do it for maybe a weekend or whatever,
you know, start for adventure for a week. But do
you think that a lot of people that do this
are kind of kind of still the young people? I mean,
or do you think they're kind of still getting money
from mom and dad? Do you think that they're kind
of um, they're living this lifestyle but they don't really

(57:50):
have to, or they they've got a way around it
where other people have a true desperation. Yeah, I fegere,
I think that's a good question. Uh, doubtless. It's it's
doubtlessly true that some people do have a financial lifeline, right. However,
it's also true that a lot of people don't and
are purely committed to this because this is the way

(58:13):
they want to live, or maybe they feel like there's
no other, no better option. Yeah, that they've been marginalized
in some way, right, And I feel like calling them
all trust fund kids are calling them all felons is incorrect, absolutely,
But I see this kind of and I I liken
this almost to remember the people that would travel with
a grateful dead There were some that were that were
really into I mean, some that you know had to

(58:34):
sell chili, you know, in the parking lot in order
to make it to the next show, uh and you know,
to get fuel or whatever if its tickets. But there
were other people that you know, were the bankers, the
lawyers that you know, bought an old VW beetle and uh,
and that's what they traveled in. But they had, you know,
and you know, a gold card with an unlimited amount
on it. You know that they could also access the exactum.

(58:54):
But they but they looked the part, but they weren't
necessarily really truly living that lifestyle. And I don't know,
I wonder how how how quickly somebody who's you know,
in this lifestyle for for real, can single out somebody
who is, you know, kind of pretending to be hobo.
I bet it's I bet it's something they can sniff
out pretty easily right. Yeah. A lot of it is

(59:15):
the handling of the lingo and there's only so much
one can learn through research, right sure. Sure. And you know,
we briefly talked about, um, a lot of people that
might be on the run, and it's kind of intriguing thought.
You know that, uh, some people, there may be some
lifelong criminals that are out there and that's how they're
evading the police. You know that that they're just kind

(59:37):
of moving from city to city and the pieces aren't
really being put together of who these people are, you know,
that that are committing these crimes in this town and
then suddenly they appear in this area. UM. I just
find that whole thing in intriguing, you know. And it's
not that you know, I'm I'm uh, you know, in
any way um saying that it's it's good that they
do this or anything, but I'm saying that's a it's
a clever way around the situation for them. Uh they

(01:00:00):
you know, they're not remaining in one city and trying
to hide out in that city. They're taking it on
the road, I guess. And is then, is that something
you feel is happening to I mean, and in what
percentage I mean, I don't know if you can even
guess this, but what percentage of the people that are
riding the rails do you think have something that they're
truly running from other than I mean, like like legal issues,
other than not just something mental, you know, something that

(01:00:21):
you know they feel they need to escape, something they
really need to escape. You know, exactly what do you
think do you think it's like halford do you think
it's more? I don't know. Well, I will say that
probably there is definitely a percentage there for sure, Scott.
But how many of those people, just as we said,
got a ticket for trespassing or something and then didn't

(01:00:45):
show to their court date and that became award. So
there's every level of that's going on out there, right
and and honestly, I guess if you want to look
at it this way, anybody who rides the train is
breaking the law. They're they're trespassing. Yeah, there's you know,
you can see some really interesting stuff on forums where
there are people who are genuine, genuine practicing train writers,
right train hoppers, and they say, um, they they have

(01:01:11):
a pretty coherent view or pretty unified view. They'll usually
say the same things, No one has ever, no one
is ever trying to induce runaway children to go with them.
But there if you go to um, if you check
out reddit, which has its own vagabond subreddit or like

(01:01:31):
you know, sub page of the main site and then
also has a page dedicated to just trains, you can
find a pretty interesting conversation between someone who is a
train hopper and someone who's a safety contractor for US
Freight Railroads and uh, you know what a conflicting, uh

(01:01:52):
complicking point of view. Well they have, you know, they
have a pretty respectful conversation about it. And it's neat
to see both sides because both sides are are saying
that safety is a primary concern. The safety contractors saying like,
why would anyone do this, you know, post nine eleven
world right, Why it's dangerous and ridiculous um, And then

(01:02:15):
you know, the other guy says, well, some of the
reasons you outlined are are why I stopped writing a
while back, just because it's too too much stress. And
then the safety contractors saying, yeah, no kidding, and think
about the stress that puts on my job. I worked
into twelve hour shifts and occasionally two to four hours
of travel. It's like every time we have a report
of a writer, we have to stop it, inspect it,

(01:02:36):
verify if there's a special agent nearby, he inspects it.
If not, we have everything has to stop. These these
searches can last hours. And if you are riding to
train and your train does stop in the middle of
nowhere for one of these searches, you've got to, you know,
make haste into the woods and uh and hide out
there for a couple hours until the train starts to

(01:02:57):
roll again. So, um, it's it's tough on both side, right, Well, yeah,
he says. This is something interesting, he says, and I
think it gives us a look into the human the
human element, right, he says. I know people are going
to ride, and for those that don't have any other
way or means to travel, I completely understand. He says.

(01:03:17):
It sounds weird, but I wish most people would just
climb onto my second or third unit and right inside
attempt regulated cab. That's way less than I have to
worry about. And so he's saying, like, well, why can't
we just have a cab you guys can ride in,
so I know that you're not gonna get eaten by
the wheels. And and it's strange because I've heard people say,

(01:03:38):
you know, the bulls are very intolerant now in a
post nine eleven world. But I've also heard stories where
folks say, well, yeah, I'm on the scanner, I'm on
the radio, and I might ask ask their dispatch or whatever,
what trains coming next? Where where is it going? And
sometimes they'll help you out just because they're bored and
it seems interesting. It's something different. It's it's really weird

(01:04:00):
how they work together like that sometimes. All right, So
just a couple more quick things and you know, you
kind of I guess maybe um one of the things
I was thinking about along the way here. And you
take this to whatever level you want, but there's gotta
be some health issues when you ride the trains like this.
Now that we mentioned the dust that these people tend
to be covered with, and it's there, you know, the

(01:04:20):
either the coal dust or um, you know, it depends
on if you're riding in you know, the coal gondolas,
because they don't you know, we obviously don't use steam
trains anymore. But I'm talking about more like you know,
the iron dust and the you know, they gets in
your lungs, it covers their whole bodies, talking about exposure
to the grease and you know the chemicals that are
on their hands and um, you know, not not only that,

(01:04:41):
but like just personal hygiene issues. You know, like where
you don't have a shower for a month or maybe more.
You know, maybe it's a couple of weeks, but whatever
the case is, you're not getting a regular shower, You're
not being able to clean regularly, and brushing your teeth
and things like that doesn't happen as often as it
would as if you were, you know, living in a
home somewhere. Um, what about risk of an effect actions
because you know there is that jagged metal aspect of

(01:05:03):
every car that you hop onto. You know there's gonna
be dangers there. So if you're not wearing the right
gear or if you grab onto the wrong you know,
piece of equipment or whatever. You know, there's there's lack
of proper medicine. You know, you're not gonna have the
treatment that you would normally get. I know that you
know there's some In fact, that's part of one of
the hobo code things is that you know there's a
places around town where you know, hopos can go in

(01:05:24):
and get you know, maybe stitched up if they need it,
and get the proper antibiotics or whatever and maybe not
be charged for that service. Um so in some cases.
So I don't know that there's there's different ways to
look at this. I know there's ways around this, but
it seems like there's a lot of hygiene or health issues. Well.
Also there are heavy drug issues. There's no way around it. Yeah,

(01:05:45):
I had read that a lot of people who are
experienced freight hoppers when they if they die um in
the yard or around the area. Uh, often it might
be a heroin overdose rather than you know, dismemberment by
a train or lethal beating by a bull. So there
there are inherent or prevalent drug problems, drug and alcohol abuse,

(01:06:08):
which you know, it kind of comes with the terrors,
all right. So you know all these things that we're
talking about now, I mean, I know there's a lot
of downside and there's a lot of advantages too, and
and you know there's you know, the the the the
views of course you know that everybody talks about in
the freedom you know, where you can go where you want,
when you want. That doesn't matter. Um, you've got a
lot of friendz you make on the road. Sometimes you know,
you can ability to travel for free, You've got the opportunity, um,

(01:06:31):
you know, to ride in on a car on a car,
which is kind of exciting. You know, you can kind
of as they say, you have to feel the train
you get to you can kind of sense that it's
alive almost. Um, So you get a different sensation from
you know, traveling across the country than other people get. Um.
You know, just a lot of opportunities that are out
there for for hobos, believe it or not, that are
not out there for you know, someone like you and

(01:06:52):
me who's tied to the desk, you know, nine to
five or you know whatever. But um, I wonder in
Ben and this is like, might be my last bit
that I have here to men about this, because there's
there's still a lot to talk about. But do you
think that this whole thing has been maybe overly romanticized.
You know that the downsides to me seem to be
greater than the upsides to this and it seems like

(01:07:13):
but it but it's looked upon whenever you talk to
somebody about it, and and maybe even somebody who hasn't
done it. Some people kind of get a far away
look in their eye and say, like, oh, that'd be great.
When it's to be free to do something like that,
you just choose a region, you know. I want to
go live in the Southeast for a while. I want
to go live in the Pacific Northwest. Um, I don't
I don't know how to how to put this dicinctly,

(01:07:34):
but I think that I feel like it's been overly
romanticized and to the point where people say, yeah, I
could kind of see that lifestyle, and in fact, I
might like to try that myself. But when you really
look at the dangers, you know, the stuff that we've
laid out today, along with the pros, of course, but
the dangers seemed too far outweigh the positives to me. Yeah,
you know, I understand what you're saying. I have a

(01:07:58):
minst respect for people who are surviving in this situation.
I do use the word surviving because it is definitely
not easy, and I absolutely agree that people have a
romanticized view about this. Uh. Listeners, some of you who
are tuning into the show now working in the railroad yards,

(01:08:18):
so I'm sure you are have firsthand experience with writers
and we'd like to hear what you think. Or if
you've ridden a box car before, Um, do the dangers
outweigh the benefits? So here's the last question, maybe that
would you ever do this? What you knew? We had
to ask? Right? Would ever? Would you ever do this?
Even let's just say that you had an opportunity to

(01:08:40):
take a train out west and then bring that same
train or the same line back. Um, would you do
it just for the adventure that one trip? Or would
you I guess that you probably wouldn't want to make
a lifestyle out of this, I mean, just knowing you.
I got really close when I was younger at that
same railiard. I was talking about a little five points yeah,
very close to hop and yeah, no kidding, Yeah, but

(01:09:02):
I didn't want to were friends of yours doing this acquaintances?
And that's when I had the That's when I had
this voice in my head saying, how well do you
know these people? I see? Okay, so you would have
your first your first UM experience would have been with friends,
so you wouldn't have been alone if you were to
do it right. No, And I wonder if it's I mean,
of course, if you're new to it, you want to

(01:09:22):
go with an experienced person that you can also trust.
See that's the tricky part. And now I'll play the
the therapist. Been um, do you wish that you had
jumped on that drink? And you ever look back and
think like, how different would things have been if I
had just taken it one trip? Or would it be
any different? Maybe you would do that, come right back
home and it's over. You know, it's just another experience,

(01:09:42):
another adventure. Or would it be something that you might
have got sucked into, you know, for a few years
or a lifetime for these are deep questions. No, I know.
I mean I have to get out the sign. You know,
the therapist is in for five cents, but a little
coffee cup or whatever? Yeah? Do um? Well, you know,
I don't regret I don't regret it. I don't regret
not going. It seems like an amazing thing. H for sure.

(01:10:07):
Then maybe the era where I would have been comfortable
doing it, it's fine. But in another country maybe, to
be honest with you, the laws in the US and
uh in the current environment don't make it. Oh, the
experience I would want to have to have immense respect

(01:10:27):
for people on both sides. People who are riding the trains,
people are working on the trains, And I hope that
if you are on either side of that, you remember
that these people are all human. You know, there are
no monsters. Some might not be the best place in
their lives, but uh, you know, there's still people, and
I guarantee you that they've all got very very interesting

(01:10:47):
stories to tell. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You can
read some of these online. You can listen to I
mean there's some you know, video clips of people, you know,
just kind of audibly telling their story to someone who's
interviewing them because they're they're they're happy to do that
to a point. They'll they'll you know, open up to
a point. But some of the um almost diary entries
that I've read on some of these sites, I can't
remember what the sites I were on was on, but um,

(01:11:11):
hundreds of story I mean, like three hundred stories of
you know, like my first ride I witnessed a murder,
or um, you know the story about you know that
that one woman that I met that you know, I
don't know where she is now or whatever. Just some
fascinating tales of riding the rails. But they're out there
and if you read them, they're they're really intriguing. Yes, absolutely, uh,

(01:11:31):
and you can learn more about this this strange oh
wait almost got away, very clever, Mr B. All right,
would you ride one? Nope, Nope, I would not do it.
I never knew I would not do it. I've got
that that cautionary tale that young kid that I knew
lost his legs. I will not get near a moving train.

(01:11:51):
Not a moving train I like. I like looking at
the stationary trains, like riding inside of trains. Uh, you know,
if I have a ticket. But you know that's kind
of a I don't know, it's not not a very
brave way to look at it, I suppose. But the
adventure and the end, the scenery, that's that's the kind
of thing. That's the kind of thing that makes me personally.
It makes me drive more. Like you know, when I
put thirty five or forty thousand miles in a car

(01:12:13):
a year, it's like, I want to know what's around
the next ben, I want to know what's over the
next hill. I want to I want to see everything.
But I'm more comfortable doing that from an automobile than
you know, inside a moving train or outside of a
moving train. I see what you're saying. Man. For me,
it's the idea of trusting strangers totally is that I
don't I don't know these people. Yeah, I mean, honestly,

(01:12:36):
they can just toss you right off the train while
it's moving in the middle of nowhere. Who's the wiser? Really,
so you've heard it hear first, folks, If Scott Benjamin
ever invites you to ride a train with it, I'm
not saying that. I'm just saying, you know, worst case scenario,
worst worst case scenario, but still, what a fascinating aspect
of American culture and listeners. We don't know about you, guys,

(01:12:58):
but we, like many other people, assumed that this didn't exist.
It has diminished greatly. I could talk about this all
day long, ben I mean, I really could. It seems
like something you could just it just goes off on
different tangents all over the place, and there's so many
different angles to this, you know, um, you know, whatever
the case may be, it seems like we, you and
I could probably have a ten hour conversation about this

(01:13:19):
and still not extinguish all of our curiosity about the subject. Well,
we could, you know, this could be part of a
book that we could work on. You know, we call
it Hidden America, the the cultures, communities, and something else
that starts with the sea that exists invisibly around you.
The only problem with that to date, Ben is that

(01:13:40):
neither you or I have ever hopped train. Would have
to get some consult somebody would have to get some
firsthand experience. Maybe, and that's I don't know, it's troublesome
for me, but yeah, maybe some consultants, maybe bringing some uh,
bringing some hobos. Yeah, it will send no on a
train with a go pro You mean box car brown,
box car brown, Yes, boxcar brown. On that note, ladies

(01:14:03):
and gentlemen, we hope you enjoyed today's episode as much
as we enjoyed uh, as we enjoyed covering It has
been fun and I like talking about stuff like this,
and there's so much that we didn't get to we'd
love to hear from you. Do you have experience riding
the train? Do you have experience working in a railyard?
And if so, what were those experiences? And at some
point in the near future you're going to cover this

(01:14:23):
on stuff they don't want you to know as well?
Right right, we are covering this on stuff they don't
want you to know us, which is another show we
do here at how Stuff Works. Uh, please tune into that.
I'll do an update when it comes out. I'm not
sure when we'll get there. Slightly different angle or something intriguing.
I'm sure slightly different angle for sure. But if you

(01:14:43):
want to check out some of our other podcasts on
locomotives and bizarre American history, you can check out every
podcast we have ever done at car Stuff show dot com.
So if you are writing the rails now or if
you are working in railyard now, we wish you the
best of luck as always be safe and if you

(01:15:06):
happen to be near a computer, can you have something
to say or a suggestion for something we should cover
in our next episode. We'd love to hear from you.
You can write to us directly. We are car stuff
at how stuff Work dot com. So more on this
and thousands of other topics is how stuff Works dot com.
Let us know what you think, send an email to

(01:15:27):
podcast at how stuff Works dot com. M

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Hobos, Tramps and Bums: Modern Train-hoppers