July 6, 2023 • 32 mins
In the second part of this inspiring two-part episode, writer and musician Jessica Willis Fisher finishes her powerful story of survival.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Family Secrets is a production of iHeartRadio. This episode contains
descriptions of sexual assault listener discretion as advised, run.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
Away, you already to right to the end of the line.
No one need staying, No Onelllow believe in the path
only line.
Speaker 3 (00:27):
Sunni album.
Speaker 1 (00:30):
That's Jessica Willis Fisher singing from her beautiful song River Runaway.
If you haven't listened to part one of Jessica's story,
do that now and then come back for more of
this powerful, harrowing, and ultimately deeply inspiring story. I'm Danny Shapiro,
(01:08):
and this is family Secrets. The secrets that are kept
from us, the secrets we keep from others, and the
secrets we keep from ourselves. Secrets will eventually spill out.
Sometimes it takes generations, Sometimes it takes decades. Sometimes it
(01:33):
takes minutes. Jessica's book is called Unspeakable for a reason.
When it comes to the horrible truths for father's abuse,
she simply cannot speak it. It's impossible. Her siblings aren't
speaking it, and certainly her father isn't either. And it's
(01:53):
only those few times her mother alludes to it before
it's tucked away again and As the family extends, so
does the scope of this secret. One of Jessica's brothers
is about to get married to a woman named Maria.
He says to Jessica one day Maria knows. A little
(02:15):
bit later, Jessica falls in love too. She and Sean
become involved when they're teenagers, building a romantic connection. She
doesn't divulge right away to Sean what's happened to her,
but she does begin to wonder, how can I completely
connect with this person if he doesn't know the truth.
Speaker 4 (02:35):
So this dreadful inevitability of kind of being on this
collision course.
Speaker 3 (02:41):
How long are secrets like this going to be containable?
Speaker 4 (02:46):
And the biggest threat to that is, yes, as we
get older, there's the personal connections that we try to
make as individuals, and then you know, as we're performing
and stuff, there's just this bigger and bigger microscope, bigger
and bigger platform where there's this more and more awareness
and how are we going to kind of be able
(03:06):
to balance that? And my brother became engaged and it
was actually during my late teenage years that I was
trying to figure out how to have a relationship. But
it was this disillusionment over time, realizing, oh, my dad
really is never going to let me go. And I
think I realized how deep that was in me by
(03:27):
realizing I never imagine getting married. Some part of me
knew like, that's probably never going to happen for me,
but of course I desperately wanted that.
Speaker 1 (03:37):
When Jessica's in her early twenties, she and Sean have
not had sex, but their relationship is certainly sexual. She
sends him some partially clad selfies and they're on her computer,
and one day one of her little sisters discovers these
selfies through the lens of all she's been taught at
home and at church. She's confused and traumatized by these photos,
(03:58):
unsure of why Jessa and Sean have been communicating this way.
Speaker 4 (04:05):
I was secretly talking with him, and I don't think
any healthy relationship is built on secrets. You know, how
is it supposed to be healthy? And you are sexually developing,
you are all of these things, but there's my religious
teachings and this very drastic logistical thing around me, and
(04:26):
so you know, we were digitally communicating. We're both young adults,
were both in our early twenties and when my sister
saw that, I just knew how much more so, like
this train is about to slow motion crash, you know,
and there's no way for me to really wiggle out
of this. And I was like, here, I am traumatizing
(04:47):
like a child because this is so confusing. And I
was just like, please let me tell mom and dad,
and I promised her kind.
Speaker 3 (04:56):
Of that it was going to be okay.
Speaker 4 (04:57):
And I had this awareness, like this deep guilt of
feeling like I'm an adult telling a child that's all
going to be okay. And I also know that this
is not going to be okay, and I think I
genuinely meant to go tell my parents and I didn't.
Speaker 3 (05:13):
I played it out.
Speaker 4 (05:14):
It lasted a couple more weeks before basically it came
out and they found out. I did not just go,
you know what, this is wrong and like stand up
and rebel. I basically folded and accepted that. You know,
of course, a part of me, there were so many
(05:34):
different parts of me feeling different things, but as far
as my behaviors, I was like, yes, I am sinful,
I am wrong. And it got turned into kind of
even though we don't talk about Dad's problems here you are,
you clearly have problems, and he's the one in charge.
You're the child, you need to be disciplined. And it
(05:56):
started this weird chapter where I was the problem in
the family and it created this mob like mentality where
you know, I had to be managed, the kids had
to be protected from me, My actions had to be monitored,
and it was really my soul at stake here. Dad
was like, you know, she's she's being led astray by
(06:18):
the devil, and parts of me resisted, but it felt
too much. I was going against the whole entire system,
all of my siblings, both my parents, and I had
to keep up this outer shtick and roll and smile
on stage, and inside it was I was losing my
(06:38):
sanity bit by bit.
Speaker 1 (06:41):
Yeah, it's so painful, this like level of control and surveillance.
Speaker 4 (06:47):
It's cultish because it's the mind control. It's the bounded
choice theory, where it's like I share with people that
there is this time where and I have a video
of it. And sometimes I'm so thankful for that video,
because otherwise I would doubt that this happened. But there's proof,
and sometimes I need that proof to even be able
(07:08):
to believe my memories of these moments, but it's this
kind of kangaroo court scene where you know, Dad is
telling me I have to claim my master, and he's saying,
I already know you're following singe, but you have to
confess it, you know, And so think inquisition, think whatever
worst version of that cult leader and control mob sort
(07:32):
of thing. And it was in that moment that I
realized that this was an escalation of dynamics that had
been here forever.
Speaker 3 (07:39):
There were moments.
Speaker 4 (07:39):
Where I would pile on a sibling who was stepping
out of line, but now how could I protest that
without being so hypocritical and taking it spiritually? I would
sometimes open the Bible, which was so troubling to me,
and I've had such conflicting thoughts, but their scripture that
says if you do not forgive others, God will not
(08:03):
forgive you. And so it felt like I was trying
to find the courage and the foothold to finally like say, Dad,
you're wrong. The main problem here is what you've been
doing all this time. But unfortunately I had taken steps that,
according to what I believed, was also wrong. So it
(08:23):
was this, who are you to talk sort of thing,
and it was just really a crazy making situation.
Speaker 3 (08:30):
For sure.
Speaker 1 (08:34):
We'll be right back. One night on tour, a set
of blue flashing lights head toward the Fisher Family tour bus,
(08:57):
which is pulled over on the side of the road.
Jessica's father has been violently striking her in the face,
but now a cop is here. If a cop sees
what's really going on, maybe Jessica and her siblings will
be rescued, will be safe. But that's not what happens.
Speaker 4 (09:16):
He pulled the bus over, he continued to attack me,
and a cop had pulled over. It was just the
wildest feeling, so surreal, so weird.
Speaker 3 (09:28):
I was just.
Speaker 4 (09:29):
So terrified for my life. I was basically an animal mode.
Speaker 3 (09:32):
You know.
Speaker 4 (09:32):
I didn't know if this was a moment where his
violence would lead to someone dying, if that would be me,
if that would have made me happy. You know, I
really kind of think that moment. One of the things
I remember thinking is I just wish I wasn't here,
because if you follow that I'm the problem, believe all
the way to its end, it's you know, everybody would
be better off if I wasn't here. You know, the
(09:55):
cop comes to the door essentially, and I don't even
need to be forced into the closet or or out
from you. I just kind of like a zombie go
hide myself because one of my coping mechanisms was always
on a dime, being able to smile, being able to
pull it off.
Speaker 3 (10:11):
But you can't.
Speaker 4 (10:13):
You can't do that when you're bleeding. You can't do
that when your face is hanging weird. My body was
going to betray me, and it just felt so out
of control.
Speaker 3 (10:23):
And as you.
Speaker 4 (10:24):
Hear this person says, there's everybody okay, you know, it's like, well,
everybody was just screaming.
Speaker 3 (10:29):
Maybe they're not going to be able to pull it off.
Speaker 4 (10:31):
But no, there's this oh yeah, everything's fine, and just
it was the depths of depression and despair because I
was realizing I was still waiting.
Speaker 3 (10:41):
For permission.
Speaker 4 (10:43):
To ask for help, for permission to be believed, to
be rescued, all of these things, and it was not
going to come. And the heaviest thing was it is
escalating so fast and my actual bodily safety is fleeing.
I may die here, and I don't know if I
(11:05):
have what it takes to get out. I'm the only one, like,
nobody's coming. If I don't figure out how to get
out of here, I'm going to die here. And I
just at that moment wasn't sure it was even worth it,
Like what am I escaping too?
Speaker 3 (11:22):
This is my family.
Speaker 4 (11:24):
I knew Sean at the time, and I part of
me wanted to be in that relationship, but I hadn't
fought for it, so maybe that wasn't even waiting for me.
Speaker 3 (11:32):
You know.
Speaker 4 (11:32):
I had to believe that I was worth, that I
had value, that I deserved to be safe, and that
just felt like so far away and so impossible. It
was a dark couple months there, and chunks that are
kind of missing. But I gave in and didn't protest
and kind of took the sin on my shoulders for
(11:53):
that period and accepted all those negative, you know, judgments
of me. When I just kind of went, Okay, I surrender,
I give up, I realized, well, actually, no, I'm no
longer resisting that. But some part of me cannot do
the dance and smile and be happy.
Speaker 3 (12:10):
That part's broken.
Speaker 4 (12:11):
But I can't really execute complete nothingness either, Like there's
still a part of me that wants to survive and
that kind of made its way to the surface.
Speaker 3 (12:23):
But there was just this normal day.
Speaker 4 (12:25):
It could have been any other horrible day during the
dark period, but there's an altercation with my dad, and
something in me went, that is the last time that happens.
And it wasn't the question, it wasn't the theological statement.
It just went, that is not happening again. And it
almost felt like something outside of me. I now kind
of actually view it, maybe from the core of me.
(12:48):
I think little invisible girl that had borne all of.
Speaker 3 (12:52):
This time's up. That's it. I'm not putting up with
any more of this.
Speaker 4 (12:57):
I had sort of been learning about some narcissism and
talk about vocabulary. I was trying to get the vocabulary
to describe twenty years of confusing traumatic experience. So there
were these glimpses of clarity of Oh, I actually know
what's happening here. I can see some of these dynamics,
and I would do more of that before too long,
(13:19):
but I knew he could keep me forever. I finally
had this moment of oh, the chances are in your mind,
they're not actually on the door.
Speaker 3 (13:26):
Most of the time. You know, like you can run.
It is completely reasonable that you can run. And so
when I just.
Speaker 4 (13:32):
Had that knowing of that's the last time that's going
to happen. I'm not going to be here by the
end of the day. I'm not sure exactly how. And
so it was well, what are you going to do?
Where are you going to go? And I was like,
give me a phone. And if they had said no,
you know, maybe I would have ran that night under
cover of darkness when I found a chance.
Speaker 3 (13:49):
But they handed me a phone and I thought, Okay,
who can I call?
Speaker 4 (13:53):
And I called my dad's cousin who was around my age,
and I just said, can I come, Can I come
see you?
Speaker 3 (14:01):
And she said sure, and I said can I bring
a bag? She said sure.
Speaker 4 (14:06):
It's like trying to climb this wall, so you get
a foothold and it enables you to get to the
next So that told me I knew I was going
to get out today because if I didn't show up,
other people outside my family were going to wonder. So
then I had that foothold, and then it was like, well,
when are you going to go?
Speaker 3 (14:21):
What are you going to take?
Speaker 4 (14:22):
And my dad, he'd never really been in this position,
and he did all he could to make sure he
felt as in control all the situation as possible, and
he framed it to the family that I had to
leave my choices. We're going to reflect badly on the family.
So he was pushing me out. And that's another kind
of before and after a moment where I think it
(14:44):
could have gone so many different ways, but everything changed
really fast after that from that moment.
Speaker 1 (14:51):
It's interesting too, because there's something in there about the
power of language and the power of naming things. Sean
gives you this book that really describes what you know.
Pathological narcissism is what it looks like, and that's the
(15:12):
first time it's sort of like the word molested earlier,
something clicks for you, where as like that day might
not have been all that different from any other day,
but the thing that was finally the last straw that
said no more has something to do with the arsenal
of language that you had.
Speaker 4 (15:29):
Now I believe that, and it's astounding how little it
can take sometimes you know, just a few more words,
because how would you actually feel if you were angry
all the time but you didn't even have the word
anger or any of his adjacent words, Like there's all
this built up pressure and experience and like a lot
of times very visceral feelings and there's no way to
(15:51):
express it. And so certainly the emotional build up and
back up and just years of events. And for me
it was helpful is there were a lots lots of
events that I still needed to sort through, lots of
feelings I needed to sort through. But when you see
the dynamics and you see the pattern, and you see
the way things are related to each other, concepts like narcissism, dissociation,
(16:15):
high control groups, things like that, I started seeing, Oh,
my goodness, that's what I'm in right now. And yes,
it's also in my family. Yes it's happened over years
and years, and there's religion in here, and there's TV,
and there's all these things.
Speaker 3 (16:28):
But those surface things didn't matter as much.
Speaker 4 (16:31):
The specifics don't matter. When you look at the patterns
of grooming, or when you look at the patterns of
abuse and violence, you notice that you can start to
see the pillars that hold up how that all works,
and if you disrupt that pattern, you just stop playing
into that pattern. And to some degree, it's quite fragile
(16:52):
and realizing that my dad.
Speaker 3 (16:54):
Had all this power, but what power did he really have?
He kind of.
Speaker 4 (16:58):
Got it from all of us, yes, and trying to
understand that, you know, when you're preyed on by such
toxic narcissism, to remove the fuel, to remove giving my
power over to prop up him. I had gotten to
a point where the show couldn't really go on very
(17:20):
well without me, and it put a lot of stress
on my siblings that I would have loved to save
them from. But there was kind of this awareness that
I at least had at that moment, like looking at
my dad, like, yeah, you have the power, but all I.
Speaker 3 (17:33):
Have to do is step away, and you like, you
can't do anything to me anymore. What you've done to
me is what I've let you do to me.
Speaker 1 (17:44):
Jessica and Sean finally get together for real. Jessica finds
a really good trauma informed therapist, and she begins to
learn the language of trauma, dissociation, compartmentalization, hypervigilance, putting words
to experience she's been living inside her body for decades.
She also hears a phrase for her therapist when she
(18:07):
finally shares the scope of everything that has happened to
her child rape Jessica had desperately wanted this to not
be the case, but it is the case. The definition
of child rape fits into the parameters of what her
father has done to her. She is twenty four years old,
(18:28):
she has no academic degree of any kind, since she's
only ever been homeschooled, But what she does have is strength, love,
the help she needs, and the knowledge that she is
finally safe.
Speaker 4 (18:44):
This story is not the same without that support. It
was just a marvel and it didn't really compute to
me people who, for all practical purposes, didn't know me,
you know. And certainly there was this compulsion to try
to share, because how can you really be close, how
can you really cleanse the moon.
Speaker 3 (19:04):
Without just getting it all out there?
Speaker 4 (19:07):
But I was I was doing that in therapy, and
I was trying to, you know, get to know my
husband and now my in laws, and they're welcoming community
that just opened their arms to me. I was in
a bad spot and I got so much help, and
I know that doesn't happen for everyone. I just don't
think you can separate my health journey and my recovery
(19:27):
and everything from how critical really good trauma informed therapy
really accepting.
Speaker 3 (19:35):
And loving people.
Speaker 4 (19:36):
And between those two things, I was also directed towards
places where my therapy could be funded, you know, because
I don't have my feet under me and you're trying
to start our new life. It felt like, all right,
I got away with my life. I'm going to try
to start over. And as I'm learning and acquiring the
(19:57):
vocabulary to understand what happened to me, whether it be
learning that child rape did apply to me or oh,
dissociation like that, so that means I was also learning
about predators and perpetrators. Because the work that we immediately
jumped into is like, where do you start. There's there's
twenty four years to address, and the newer, most recent
(20:20):
stuff with the tendencies and that the mob meant and
all that felt like not the place to start. So
we just I just went to when I was youngest,
when it was clearest, when it's so obviously not my fault,
and to understand, hey, this is how this happens.
Speaker 3 (20:38):
Many other people have gone through this.
Speaker 4 (20:40):
It was devastating and yet relieving and so empowering all
the same time because I was able to move so
quickly and there was less, you know, judgment to myself
that would come up for my teenage self and my
young adult self, but as my child self. That was
really helpful to learn about other victims and survivors, and
also to understand that it wasn't a problem of my
(21:03):
dad or me as a daughter, like what's wrong with me?
Understanding that this happens over and over and there is
a pattern, and we have words that conscribe these things.
And it became very chilling, very quick. This is no
longer just my dad or my abuser, but this is
a perpetrator that is out there, and so I'm doing
(21:23):
my best to just get my feet underbeed do this
extremely excruciating, heavy therapeutic work which is going to be
a lifetime effort, but very quickly, you know, within weeks,
especially as my therapist came to understand more, as I
shared more with her, she was very aware it is
a very dangerous situation, you know, And I would basically
(21:47):
came to realize I was kind of needing to prepare
to play a part and if this was ever going
to stop, I was gonna have to talk about this,
and you know, Sean and different people would ask me
like can you report this?
Speaker 3 (22:03):
So you're ready to tell you.
Speaker 4 (22:04):
They were trying to be respectful and not force that
on me because they knew I needed to try to
get a sense of control and ownership over my body
and my story and my experience.
Speaker 3 (22:14):
You know.
Speaker 4 (22:14):
The longer time went on, the more I could see
that not that this whole thing is my fault, but
it may be on me to stop this.
Speaker 3 (22:25):
And it's becoming.
Speaker 4 (22:26):
More and more of this moral weight that every day
I don't do something, you know, if nothing else. I mean,
hopefully my dad isn't preying on my sisters at this moment,
but they're out in front of people selling a lie
that is, you know, what was on the surface is
totally not what was happening behind closed doors. And it
(22:48):
was a real headspin to try to get the courage,
and you just want to hide escape, but you feel
like you have this huge responsibility.
Speaker 1 (23:02):
We'll be back in a moment with more family secrets.
The initial report about Jessica's father is phoned into a
hotline at the Tennessee Bureau of Investigation, and it is
(23:24):
not made by Jessica, but rather by someone close to
her family who had always suspected that something was terribly amiss.
In the Willis household, Jessica is called in to give
a statement. Within twenty four hours, an investigation is launched.
Speaker 4 (23:42):
There are so many agents involved. It really very quickly
was like, well, will someone speak firsthand to this?
Speaker 3 (23:49):
Will Jessica talk or not?
Speaker 4 (23:51):
And I was very much willing and went in with
the headspace of feeling like, you know, I'm actually more
scared about how this could go down. When you start
looking at perpetrators, even serial killers like cult leaders, when
you get them cornered, it gets really dangerous really fast.
(24:12):
And because of how it looked on the outside, I
honestly was afraid that people were not going to understand
the gravity of the situation. So my thought going in
to this interview once I said yes to it, was
I have to say as much as I can, as
fast as I can, and stress to them how bad
I basically have to roll out the greatest hits of
the worst things that I've ever seen and have ever
(24:34):
happened to me.
Speaker 3 (24:36):
And you know, they were there.
Speaker 4 (24:39):
To see if I was going to say that any
sexual crimes had happened, but I was like, okay, you know,
there's violence, bankings, and there's religious teachings, and there's six
ar fifteens, and there's end times profits.
Speaker 3 (24:54):
You know.
Speaker 4 (24:54):
So I'm saying all this crazy, like not very organized stuff,
but they kept bringing.
Speaker 3 (24:59):
It back to like, okay, did this happen? Like what happened?
How old were you? Where were you?
Speaker 4 (25:05):
And you know, so in describing the sexual crimes, like
you would touch me here and this and that, and
they asked the best questions they can and just saying,
you know, oh, did this happen like two times or
five times or ten times? I was like, no, like
a hundred times. I can't even tell you how many
times this is. This is the least drastic thing, Like
(25:28):
I understand it's a crime, and I'm in therapy and
I'm finally coming to understand just how bad this is.
Speaker 3 (25:35):
But that's the base.
Speaker 4 (25:37):
We're going to add everything else on top of that.
I was feeling all sorts of things, but even just
to say that out loud, oh yeah, that happened hundreds
of times, there's a part of me that was kind
of just shocked by even hearing me say that, because
there's so much to grieve, so much to acknowledge, so
much to sit with, you know, twenty four years of
(25:59):
reaction that have never had their proper time.
Speaker 3 (26:04):
But there was no time for that, you know.
Speaker 4 (26:06):
It was on to the next thing, trying to paint,
not to exaggerate. But I finished talking for hours, and
I thought, did I forget the one thing that's actually
going to make this change and make this stop? And
it took me a while to understand that that was
connected to me thinking I must have not said it
(26:26):
right when everythings didn't stop. Eventually you come back to
blaming yourself and saying, well, I'm the problem. And so
even sitting there in that investigation room and talking to
these professionals, it was like, have I done enough.
Speaker 1 (26:43):
Jessica's father is arrested. He pleads guilty. Jessica is, of course,
completely on edge until the moment of our father's sentencing.
He'll be in prison for most of the rest of
his life. He has gotten away with so much for
so long long, and now he is finally being brought
to justice for all the pain, havoc and abuse he
(27:06):
has wrought. And just as her father loses his freedom,
Jessica begins to gain her own. Sean asks Jessica for
her hand in marriage, and she decides there's something she
still needs to share with him. For the case, she
had written a fourteen page letter detailing, to the best
(27:26):
of her ability and memory, everything that her father had
done to her. This letter is used in her testimony,
and while she's let Sean into some degree, she hasn't
shared all the details, all the horror, in all its granularity,
But she wants to enter into a marriage in which
there are no more secrets, nothing hidden, only truth.
Speaker 4 (27:51):
After I'd talked with TBI, I told him all I could,
and I actually asked she also something that I had
written be included that included some graphics, specifics of what
had happened over the years, just to make sure that
I was giving them all the information they needed. And
(28:12):
they did end up making their rest warrant from part
of my testimony, and you know, it didn't really feel
like an option. There was nothing that I was trying
to hold back. And in the days after that is
the investigations going on. You know, I'm looking at this
man that I love that is getting to know me,
(28:32):
and you know we had been kept from doing that
the normal way and dating and recording, and I'm having
to share the deepest, darkest, worst things that have ever
happened to me with people I don't know, complete strangers,
these investigators and therapists, And if he was willing, I
wanted to tell him, and I didn't want to force
(28:53):
him to hear that. But our relationship was built on
him sharing vulnerable things with me, and over time, you know,
me trusting that. Yes, it's always risky to open up
to someone, but I had literally lived on the edge
of a cliff my entire life, and I didn't want
to go in to a relationship where I was going
(29:14):
to be judged for that. I was done with having
those secrets and I lived in their power for so long.
I couldn't And again, he has his choice. He doesn't
have to share everything about his past. He had shared
some things to build that trust, but he said, yes,
I want to all read whatever someone else has to read.
And that was a big moment. You know, not a
(29:36):
lot of fanfare or anything, but you know, to see Sean,
this man that I love. And also even just having
talked to the investigators too, there's something about seeing a man,
this man that I personally love. And then in the
case of the investigator, someone I don't know but who
kind of fits all of those stereotypical, especially the way
I was raised, masculine, manly protector, you know, essentially the
(29:59):
dat that I would have wanted internally all this time,
and to see them take in my story and be
moved by it, grieved by it. But also part of
the proper reaction to this is anger and action, and
I think, especially as a woman, those things are a
lot of times taken away.
Speaker 3 (30:20):
You have to be sweet, you have to be.
Speaker 4 (30:21):
Kind, and you know, in my mind growing up, those
were the things that.
Speaker 3 (30:25):
Men were allowed to do.
Speaker 4 (30:26):
Men were allowed to get passionate about what should happen,
and to feel like I trusted that this investigator.
Speaker 3 (30:34):
Was going to make this happen.
Speaker 4 (30:37):
And then to share in vulnerability with the person that
I'm coming to love and will eventually build a life with,
like those were really big moments in this whole entire process.
Speaker 1 (30:54):
Here's Jessica reading a passage from her memoir Unspeakable. Yes
she is speaking.
Speaker 5 (31:03):
We had a small wedding ceremony. By the time I
stood prepared to walk myself down the aisle in front
of eighty some people on that drizzly spring day, there
was an anchor of calm underneath the butterflies. No one
there would be giving this woman away. When I was
halfway to Sean, he abandoned his post to meet me.
(31:24):
We walked the last few steps together.
Speaker 3 (31:27):
We had already won, gone ahead of it.
Speaker 2 (31:33):
The boy as the Crown Hsigan. It's a.
Speaker 1 (31:42):
Family Secrets is a production of iHeartRadio. Molly's Accour is
the story editor and Dylan Fagan is the executive producer.
If you have a family secret you'd like to share,
please leave us a voicemail and your story could appear
on an upcoming episode. Our number is one eight eight
eight secret Z zero. That's the number zero. You can
(32:02):
also find me on Instagram at Danny Rider. And if
you'd like to know more about the story that inspired
this podcast, check out my memoir Inheritance And You're Not Alone.
Speaker 2 (32:17):
I can't let you know. Leave my bottle with the
lost in fom jump. Don't und you're gone ahead, them
out before you look
Speaker 1 (32:36):
Again.
Family Secrets is a production of iHeartRadio. This episode contains
descriptions of sexual assault listener discretion as advised, run.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
Away, you already to right to the end of the line.
No one need staying, No Onelllow believe in the path
only line.
Speaker 3 (00:27):
Sunni album.
Speaker 1 (00:30):
That's Jessica Willis Fisher singing from her beautiful song River Runaway.
If you haven't listened to part one of Jessica's story,
do that now and then come back for more of
this powerful, harrowing, and ultimately deeply inspiring story. I'm Danny Shapiro,
(01:08):
and this is family Secrets. The secrets that are kept
from us, the secrets we keep from others, and the
secrets we keep from ourselves. Secrets will eventually spill out.
Sometimes it takes generations, Sometimes it takes decades. Sometimes it
(01:33):
takes minutes. Jessica's book is called Unspeakable for a reason.
When it comes to the horrible truths for father's abuse,
she simply cannot speak it. It's impossible. Her siblings aren't
speaking it, and certainly her father isn't either. And it's
(01:53):
only those few times her mother alludes to it before
it's tucked away again and As the family extends, so
does the scope of this secret. One of Jessica's brothers
is about to get married to a woman named Maria.
He says to Jessica one day Maria knows. A little
(02:15):
bit later, Jessica falls in love too. She and Sean
become involved when they're teenagers, building a romantic connection. She
doesn't divulge right away to Sean what's happened to her,
but she does begin to wonder, how can I completely
connect with this person if he doesn't know the truth.
Speaker 4 (02:35):
So this dreadful inevitability of kind of being on this
collision course.
Speaker 3 (02:41):
How long are secrets like this going to be containable?
Speaker 4 (02:46):
And the biggest threat to that is, yes, as we
get older, there's the personal connections that we try to
make as individuals, and then you know, as we're performing
and stuff, there's just this bigger and bigger microscope, bigger
and bigger platform where there's this more and more awareness
and how are we going to kind of be able
(03:06):
to balance that? And my brother became engaged and it
was actually during my late teenage years that I was
trying to figure out how to have a relationship. But
it was this disillusionment over time, realizing, oh, my dad
really is never going to let me go. And I
think I realized how deep that was in me by
(03:27):
realizing I never imagine getting married. Some part of me
knew like, that's probably never going to happen for me,
but of course I desperately wanted that.
Speaker 1 (03:37):
When Jessica's in her early twenties, she and Sean have
not had sex, but their relationship is certainly sexual. She
sends him some partially clad selfies and they're on her computer,
and one day one of her little sisters discovers these
selfies through the lens of all she's been taught at
home and at church. She's confused and traumatized by these photos,
(03:58):
unsure of why Jessa and Sean have been communicating this way.
Speaker 4 (04:05):
I was secretly talking with him, and I don't think
any healthy relationship is built on secrets. You know, how
is it supposed to be healthy? And you are sexually developing,
you are all of these things, but there's my religious
teachings and this very drastic logistical thing around me, and
(04:26):
so you know, we were digitally communicating. We're both young adults,
were both in our early twenties and when my sister
saw that, I just knew how much more so, like
this train is about to slow motion crash, you know,
and there's no way for me to really wiggle out
of this. And I was like, here, I am traumatizing
(04:47):
like a child because this is so confusing. And I
was just like, please let me tell mom and dad,
and I promised her kind.
Speaker 3 (04:56):
Of that it was going to be okay.
Speaker 4 (04:57):
And I had this awareness, like this deep guilt of
feeling like I'm an adult telling a child that's all
going to be okay. And I also know that this
is not going to be okay, and I think I
genuinely meant to go tell my parents and I didn't.
Speaker 3 (05:13):
I played it out.
Speaker 4 (05:14):
It lasted a couple more weeks before basically it came
out and they found out. I did not just go,
you know what, this is wrong and like stand up
and rebel. I basically folded and accepted that. You know,
of course, a part of me, there were so many
(05:34):
different parts of me feeling different things, but as far
as my behaviors, I was like, yes, I am sinful,
I am wrong. And it got turned into kind of
even though we don't talk about Dad's problems here you are,
you clearly have problems, and he's the one in charge.
You're the child, you need to be disciplined. And it
(05:56):
started this weird chapter where I was the problem in
the family and it created this mob like mentality where
you know, I had to be managed, the kids had
to be protected from me, My actions had to be monitored,
and it was really my soul at stake here. Dad
was like, you know, she's she's being led astray by
(06:18):
the devil, and parts of me resisted, but it felt
too much. I was going against the whole entire system,
all of my siblings, both my parents, and I had
to keep up this outer shtick and roll and smile
on stage, and inside it was I was losing my
(06:38):
sanity bit by bit.
Speaker 1 (06:41):
Yeah, it's so painful, this like level of control and surveillance.
Speaker 4 (06:47):
It's cultish because it's the mind control. It's the bounded
choice theory, where it's like I share with people that
there is this time where and I have a video
of it. And sometimes I'm so thankful for that video,
because otherwise I would doubt that this happened. But there's proof,
and sometimes I need that proof to even be able
(07:08):
to believe my memories of these moments, but it's this
kind of kangaroo court scene where you know, Dad is
telling me I have to claim my master, and he's saying,
I already know you're following singe, but you have to
confess it, you know, And so think inquisition, think whatever
worst version of that cult leader and control mob sort
(07:32):
of thing. And it was in that moment that I
realized that this was an escalation of dynamics that had
been here forever.
Speaker 3 (07:39):
There were moments.
Speaker 4 (07:39):
Where I would pile on a sibling who was stepping
out of line, but now how could I protest that
without being so hypocritical and taking it spiritually? I would
sometimes open the Bible, which was so troubling to me,
and I've had such conflicting thoughts, but their scripture that
says if you do not forgive others, God will not
(08:03):
forgive you. And so it felt like I was trying
to find the courage and the foothold to finally like say, Dad,
you're wrong. The main problem here is what you've been
doing all this time. But unfortunately I had taken steps that,
according to what I believed, was also wrong. So it
(08:23):
was this, who are you to talk sort of thing,
and it was just really a crazy making situation.
Speaker 3 (08:30):
For sure.
Speaker 1 (08:34):
We'll be right back. One night on tour, a set
of blue flashing lights head toward the Fisher Family tour bus,
(08:57):
which is pulled over on the side of the road.
Jessica's father has been violently striking her in the face,
but now a cop is here. If a cop sees
what's really going on, maybe Jessica and her siblings will
be rescued, will be safe. But that's not what happens.
Speaker 4 (09:16):
He pulled the bus over, he continued to attack me,
and a cop had pulled over. It was just the
wildest feeling, so surreal, so weird.
Speaker 3 (09:28):
I was just.
Speaker 4 (09:29):
So terrified for my life. I was basically an animal mode.
Speaker 3 (09:32):
You know.
Speaker 4 (09:32):
I didn't know if this was a moment where his
violence would lead to someone dying, if that would be me,
if that would have made me happy. You know, I
really kind of think that moment. One of the things
I remember thinking is I just wish I wasn't here,
because if you follow that I'm the problem, believe all
the way to its end, it's you know, everybody would
be better off if I wasn't here. You know, the
(09:55):
cop comes to the door essentially, and I don't even
need to be forced into the closet or or out
from you. I just kind of like a zombie go
hide myself because one of my coping mechanisms was always
on a dime, being able to smile, being able to
pull it off.
Speaker 3 (10:11):
But you can't.
Speaker 4 (10:13):
You can't do that when you're bleeding. You can't do
that when your face is hanging weird. My body was
going to betray me, and it just felt so out
of control.
Speaker 3 (10:23):
And as you.
Speaker 4 (10:24):
Hear this person says, there's everybody okay, you know, it's like, well,
everybody was just screaming.
Speaker 3 (10:29):
Maybe they're not going to be able to pull it off.
Speaker 4 (10:31):
But no, there's this oh yeah, everything's fine, and just
it was the depths of depression and despair because I
was realizing I was still waiting.
Speaker 3 (10:41):
For permission.
Speaker 4 (10:43):
To ask for help, for permission to be believed, to
be rescued, all of these things, and it was not
going to come. And the heaviest thing was it is
escalating so fast and my actual bodily safety is fleeing.
I may die here, and I don't know if I
(11:05):
have what it takes to get out. I'm the only one, like,
nobody's coming. If I don't figure out how to get
out of here, I'm going to die here. And I
just at that moment wasn't sure it was even worth it,
Like what am I escaping too?
Speaker 3 (11:22):
This is my family.
Speaker 4 (11:24):
I knew Sean at the time, and I part of
me wanted to be in that relationship, but I hadn't
fought for it, so maybe that wasn't even waiting for me.
Speaker 3 (11:32):
You know.
Speaker 4 (11:32):
I had to believe that I was worth, that I
had value, that I deserved to be safe, and that
just felt like so far away and so impossible. It
was a dark couple months there, and chunks that are
kind of missing. But I gave in and didn't protest
and kind of took the sin on my shoulders for
(11:53):
that period and accepted all those negative, you know, judgments
of me. When I just kind of went, Okay, I surrender,
I give up, I realized, well, actually, no, I'm no
longer resisting that. But some part of me cannot do
the dance and smile and be happy.
Speaker 3 (12:10):
That part's broken.
Speaker 4 (12:11):
But I can't really execute complete nothingness either, Like there's
still a part of me that wants to survive and
that kind of made its way to the surface.
Speaker 3 (12:23):
But there was just this normal day.
Speaker 4 (12:25):
It could have been any other horrible day during the
dark period, but there's an altercation with my dad, and
something in me went, that is the last time that happens.
And it wasn't the question, it wasn't the theological statement.
It just went, that is not happening again. And it
almost felt like something outside of me. I now kind
of actually view it, maybe from the core of me.
(12:48):
I think little invisible girl that had borne all of.
Speaker 3 (12:52):
This time's up. That's it. I'm not putting up with
any more of this.
Speaker 4 (12:57):
I had sort of been learning about some narcissism and
talk about vocabulary. I was trying to get the vocabulary
to describe twenty years of confusing traumatic experience. So there
were these glimpses of clarity of Oh, I actually know
what's happening here. I can see some of these dynamics,
and I would do more of that before too long,
(13:19):
but I knew he could keep me forever. I finally
had this moment of oh, the chances are in your mind,
they're not actually on the door.
Speaker 3 (13:26):
Most of the time. You know, like you can run.
It is completely reasonable that you can run. And so
when I just.
Speaker 4 (13:32):
Had that knowing of that's the last time that's going
to happen. I'm not going to be here by the
end of the day. I'm not sure exactly how. And
so it was well, what are you going to do?
Where are you going to go? And I was like,
give me a phone. And if they had said no,
you know, maybe I would have ran that night under
cover of darkness when I found a chance.
Speaker 3 (13:49):
But they handed me a phone and I thought, Okay,
who can I call?
Speaker 4 (13:53):
And I called my dad's cousin who was around my age,
and I just said, can I come, Can I come
see you?
Speaker 3 (14:01):
And she said sure, and I said can I bring
a bag? She said sure.
Speaker 4 (14:06):
It's like trying to climb this wall, so you get
a foothold and it enables you to get to the
next So that told me I knew I was going
to get out today because if I didn't show up,
other people outside my family were going to wonder. So
then I had that foothold, and then it was like, well,
when are you going to go?
Speaker 3 (14:21):
What are you going to take?
Speaker 4 (14:22):
And my dad, he'd never really been in this position,
and he did all he could to make sure he
felt as in control all the situation as possible, and
he framed it to the family that I had to
leave my choices. We're going to reflect badly on the family.
So he was pushing me out. And that's another kind
of before and after a moment where I think it
(14:44):
could have gone so many different ways, but everything changed
really fast after that from that moment.
Speaker 1 (14:51):
It's interesting too, because there's something in there about the
power of language and the power of naming things. Sean
gives you this book that really describes what you know.
Pathological narcissism is what it looks like, and that's the
(15:12):
first time it's sort of like the word molested earlier,
something clicks for you, where as like that day might
not have been all that different from any other day,
but the thing that was finally the last straw that
said no more has something to do with the arsenal
of language that you had.
Speaker 4 (15:29):
Now I believe that, and it's astounding how little it
can take sometimes you know, just a few more words,
because how would you actually feel if you were angry
all the time but you didn't even have the word
anger or any of his adjacent words, Like there's all
this built up pressure and experience and like a lot
of times very visceral feelings and there's no way to
(15:51):
express it. And so certainly the emotional build up and
back up and just years of events. And for me
it was helpful is there were a lots lots of
events that I still needed to sort through, lots of
feelings I needed to sort through. But when you see
the dynamics and you see the pattern, and you see
the way things are related to each other, concepts like narcissism, dissociation,
(16:15):
high control groups, things like that, I started seeing, Oh,
my goodness, that's what I'm in right now. And yes,
it's also in my family. Yes it's happened over years
and years, and there's religion in here, and there's TV,
and there's all these things.
Speaker 3 (16:28):
But those surface things didn't matter as much.
Speaker 4 (16:31):
The specifics don't matter. When you look at the patterns
of grooming, or when you look at the patterns of
abuse and violence, you notice that you can start to
see the pillars that hold up how that all works,
and if you disrupt that pattern, you just stop playing
into that pattern. And to some degree, it's quite fragile
(16:52):
and realizing that my dad.
Speaker 3 (16:54):
Had all this power, but what power did he really have?
He kind of.
Speaker 4 (16:58):
Got it from all of us, yes, and trying to
understand that, you know, when you're preyed on by such
toxic narcissism, to remove the fuel, to remove giving my
power over to prop up him. I had gotten to
a point where the show couldn't really go on very
(17:20):
well without me, and it put a lot of stress
on my siblings that I would have loved to save
them from. But there was kind of this awareness that
I at least had at that moment, like looking at
my dad, like, yeah, you have the power, but all I.
Speaker 3 (17:33):
Have to do is step away, and you like, you
can't do anything to me anymore. What you've done to
me is what I've let you do to me.
Speaker 1 (17:44):
Jessica and Sean finally get together for real. Jessica finds
a really good trauma informed therapist, and she begins to
learn the language of trauma, dissociation, compartmentalization, hypervigilance, putting words
to experience she's been living inside her body for decades.
She also hears a phrase for her therapist when she
(18:07):
finally shares the scope of everything that has happened to
her child rape Jessica had desperately wanted this to not
be the case, but it is the case. The definition
of child rape fits into the parameters of what her
father has done to her. She is twenty four years old,
(18:28):
she has no academic degree of any kind, since she's
only ever been homeschooled, But what she does have is strength, love,
the help she needs, and the knowledge that she is
finally safe.
Speaker 4 (18:44):
This story is not the same without that support. It
was just a marvel and it didn't really compute to
me people who, for all practical purposes, didn't know me,
you know. And certainly there was this compulsion to try
to share, because how can you really be close, how
can you really cleanse the moon.
Speaker 3 (19:04):
Without just getting it all out there?
Speaker 4 (19:07):
But I was I was doing that in therapy, and
I was trying to, you know, get to know my
husband and now my in laws, and they're welcoming community
that just opened their arms to me. I was in
a bad spot and I got so much help, and
I know that doesn't happen for everyone. I just don't
think you can separate my health journey and my recovery
(19:27):
and everything from how critical really good trauma informed therapy
really accepting.
Speaker 3 (19:35):
And loving people.
Speaker 4 (19:36):
And between those two things, I was also directed towards
places where my therapy could be funded, you know, because
I don't have my feet under me and you're trying
to start our new life. It felt like, all right,
I got away with my life. I'm going to try
to start over. And as I'm learning and acquiring the
(19:57):
vocabulary to understand what happened to me, whether it be
learning that child rape did apply to me or oh,
dissociation like that, so that means I was also learning
about predators and perpetrators. Because the work that we immediately
jumped into is like, where do you start. There's there's
twenty four years to address, and the newer, most recent
(20:20):
stuff with the tendencies and that the mob meant and
all that felt like not the place to start. So
we just I just went to when I was youngest,
when it was clearest, when it's so obviously not my fault,
and to understand, hey, this is how this happens.
Speaker 3 (20:38):
Many other people have gone through this.
Speaker 4 (20:40):
It was devastating and yet relieving and so empowering all
the same time because I was able to move so
quickly and there was less, you know, judgment to myself
that would come up for my teenage self and my
young adult self, but as my child self. That was
really helpful to learn about other victims and survivors, and
also to understand that it wasn't a problem of my
(21:03):
dad or me as a daughter, like what's wrong with me?
Understanding that this happens over and over and there is
a pattern, and we have words that conscribe these things.
And it became very chilling, very quick. This is no
longer just my dad or my abuser, but this is
a perpetrator that is out there, and so I'm doing
(21:23):
my best to just get my feet underbeed do this
extremely excruciating, heavy therapeutic work which is going to be
a lifetime effort, but very quickly, you know, within weeks,
especially as my therapist came to understand more, as I
shared more with her, she was very aware it is
a very dangerous situation, you know, And I would basically
(21:47):
came to realize I was kind of needing to prepare
to play a part and if this was ever going
to stop, I was gonna have to talk about this,
and you know, Sean and different people would ask me
like can you report this?
Speaker 3 (22:03):
So you're ready to tell you.
Speaker 4 (22:04):
They were trying to be respectful and not force that
on me because they knew I needed to try to
get a sense of control and ownership over my body
and my story and my experience.
Speaker 3 (22:14):
You know.
Speaker 4 (22:14):
The longer time went on, the more I could see
that not that this whole thing is my fault, but
it may be on me to stop this.
Speaker 3 (22:25):
And it's becoming.
Speaker 4 (22:26):
More and more of this moral weight that every day
I don't do something, you know, if nothing else. I mean,
hopefully my dad isn't preying on my sisters at this moment,
but they're out in front of people selling a lie
that is, you know, what was on the surface is
totally not what was happening behind closed doors. And it
(22:48):
was a real headspin to try to get the courage,
and you just want to hide escape, but you feel
like you have this huge responsibility.
Speaker 1 (23:02):
We'll be back in a moment with more family secrets.
The initial report about Jessica's father is phoned into a
hotline at the Tennessee Bureau of Investigation, and it is
(23:24):
not made by Jessica, but rather by someone close to
her family who had always suspected that something was terribly amiss.
In the Willis household, Jessica is called in to give
a statement. Within twenty four hours, an investigation is launched.
Speaker 4 (23:42):
There are so many agents involved. It really very quickly
was like, well, will someone speak firsthand to this?
Speaker 3 (23:49):
Will Jessica talk or not?
Speaker 4 (23:51):
And I was very much willing and went in with
the headspace of feeling like, you know, I'm actually more
scared about how this could go down. When you start
looking at perpetrators, even serial killers like cult leaders, when
you get them cornered, it gets really dangerous really fast.
(24:12):
And because of how it looked on the outside, I
honestly was afraid that people were not going to understand
the gravity of the situation. So my thought going in
to this interview once I said yes to it, was
I have to say as much as I can, as
fast as I can, and stress to them how bad
I basically have to roll out the greatest hits of
the worst things that I've ever seen and have ever
(24:34):
happened to me.
Speaker 3 (24:36):
And you know, they were there.
Speaker 4 (24:39):
To see if I was going to say that any
sexual crimes had happened, but I was like, okay, you know,
there's violence, bankings, and there's religious teachings, and there's six
ar fifteens, and there's end times profits.
Speaker 3 (24:54):
You know.
Speaker 4 (24:54):
So I'm saying all this crazy, like not very organized stuff,
but they kept bringing.
Speaker 3 (24:59):
It back to like, okay, did this happen? Like what happened?
How old were you? Where were you?
Speaker 4 (25:05):
And you know, so in describing the sexual crimes, like
you would touch me here and this and that, and
they asked the best questions they can and just saying,
you know, oh, did this happen like two times or
five times or ten times? I was like, no, like
a hundred times. I can't even tell you how many
times this is. This is the least drastic thing, Like
(25:28):
I understand it's a crime, and I'm in therapy and
I'm finally coming to understand just how bad this is.
Speaker 3 (25:35):
But that's the base.
Speaker 4 (25:37):
We're going to add everything else on top of that.
I was feeling all sorts of things, but even just
to say that out loud, oh yeah, that happened hundreds
of times, there's a part of me that was kind
of just shocked by even hearing me say that, because
there's so much to grieve, so much to acknowledge, so
much to sit with, you know, twenty four years of
(25:59):
reaction that have never had their proper time.
Speaker 3 (26:04):
But there was no time for that, you know.
Speaker 4 (26:06):
It was on to the next thing, trying to paint,
not to exaggerate. But I finished talking for hours, and
I thought, did I forget the one thing that's actually
going to make this change and make this stop? And
it took me a while to understand that that was
connected to me thinking I must have not said it
(26:26):
right when everythings didn't stop. Eventually you come back to
blaming yourself and saying, well, I'm the problem. And so
even sitting there in that investigation room and talking to
these professionals, it was like, have I done enough.
Speaker 1 (26:43):
Jessica's father is arrested. He pleads guilty. Jessica is, of course,
completely on edge until the moment of our father's sentencing.
He'll be in prison for most of the rest of
his life. He has gotten away with so much for
so long long, and now he is finally being brought
to justice for all the pain, havoc and abuse he
(27:06):
has wrought. And just as her father loses his freedom,
Jessica begins to gain her own. Sean asks Jessica for
her hand in marriage, and she decides there's something she
still needs to share with him. For the case, she
had written a fourteen page letter detailing, to the best
(27:26):
of her ability and memory, everything that her father had
done to her. This letter is used in her testimony,
and while she's let Sean into some degree, she hasn't
shared all the details, all the horror, in all its granularity,
But she wants to enter into a marriage in which
there are no more secrets, nothing hidden, only truth.
Speaker 4 (27:51):
After I'd talked with TBI, I told him all I could,
and I actually asked she also something that I had
written be included that included some graphics, specifics of what
had happened over the years, just to make sure that
I was giving them all the information they needed. And
(28:12):
they did end up making their rest warrant from part
of my testimony, and you know, it didn't really feel
like an option. There was nothing that I was trying
to hold back. And in the days after that is
the investigations going on. You know, I'm looking at this
man that I love that is getting to know me,
(28:32):
and you know we had been kept from doing that
the normal way and dating and recording, and I'm having
to share the deepest, darkest, worst things that have ever
happened to me with people I don't know, complete strangers,
these investigators and therapists, And if he was willing, I
wanted to tell him, and I didn't want to force
(28:53):
him to hear that. But our relationship was built on
him sharing vulnerable things with me, and over time, you know,
me trusting that. Yes, it's always risky to open up
to someone, but I had literally lived on the edge
of a cliff my entire life, and I didn't want
to go in to a relationship where I was going
(29:14):
to be judged for that. I was done with having
those secrets and I lived in their power for so long.
I couldn't And again, he has his choice. He doesn't
have to share everything about his past. He had shared
some things to build that trust, but he said, yes,
I want to all read whatever someone else has to read.
And that was a big moment. You know, not a
(29:36):
lot of fanfare or anything, but you know, to see Sean,
this man that I love. And also even just having
talked to the investigators too, there's something about seeing a man,
this man that I personally love. And then in the
case of the investigator, someone I don't know but who
kind of fits all of those stereotypical, especially the way
I was raised, masculine, manly protector, you know, essentially the
(29:59):
dat that I would have wanted internally all this time,
and to see them take in my story and be
moved by it, grieved by it. But also part of
the proper reaction to this is anger and action, and
I think, especially as a woman, those things are a
lot of times taken away.
Speaker 3 (30:20):
You have to be sweet, you have to be.
Speaker 4 (30:21):
Kind, and you know, in my mind growing up, those
were the things that.
Speaker 3 (30:25):
Men were allowed to do.
Speaker 4 (30:26):
Men were allowed to get passionate about what should happen,
and to feel like I trusted that this investigator.
Speaker 3 (30:34):
Was going to make this happen.
Speaker 4 (30:37):
And then to share in vulnerability with the person that
I'm coming to love and will eventually build a life with,
like those were really big moments in this whole entire process.
Speaker 1 (30:54):
Here's Jessica reading a passage from her memoir Unspeakable. Yes
she is speaking.
Speaker 5 (31:03):
We had a small wedding ceremony. By the time I
stood prepared to walk myself down the aisle in front
of eighty some people on that drizzly spring day, there
was an anchor of calm underneath the butterflies. No one
there would be giving this woman away. When I was
halfway to Sean, he abandoned his post to meet me.
(31:24):
We walked the last few steps together.
Speaker 3 (31:27):
We had already won, gone ahead of it.
Speaker 2 (31:33):
The boy as the Crown Hsigan. It's a.
Speaker 1 (31:42):
Family Secrets is a production of iHeartRadio. Molly's Accour is
the story editor and Dylan Fagan is the executive producer.
If you have a family secret you'd like to share,
please leave us a voicemail and your story could appear
on an upcoming episode. Our number is one eight eight
eight secret Z zero. That's the number zero. You can
(32:02):
also find me on Instagram at Danny Rider. And if
you'd like to know more about the story that inspired
this podcast, check out my memoir Inheritance And You're Not Alone.
Speaker 2 (32:17):
I can't let you know. Leave my bottle with the
lost in fom jump. Don't und you're gone ahead, them
out before you look
Speaker 1 (32:36):
Again.
Family Secrets News
Host
Dani Shapiro
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