February 23, 2024 • 41 mins
Robert and Gare discuss the story of a Florida sheriff's deputy who responded to a fallen acorn by shooting at someone locked in his own police car.
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Al Zone Media.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
Ah welcome back to It Could Happen Here, a podcast
where the host Robert Evans, one of the hosts, has
recently recovered from a terrible, terrible sickness by by engaging
in some fascinating experiments with theah flu, largely using a
friend's diabetic needles, just shooting it straight into the veins
(00:26):
my co host today, Garrison Davis, Have you ever shot
flu medication into your veins?
Speaker 3 (00:31):
Garrison, No, I've only shot one thing into my veins.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
Well, speaking of shooting, today's episode of It Could Happen
Here is about a shooting it before you are like, oh, man,
I don't really have it in me to listen to
a horrible story about people dying today. Don't worry. Nobody
gets shot in this story, Thank God.
Speaker 3 (00:50):
Miraculously nobody gets shot, Like against all odds, it's stunning
that nobody got shot.
Speaker 2 (00:57):
This is the tale of a police officer fucking up.
Not worse than any cop has ever fucked up, because
again he didn't kill anybody, but fucking up in a
way that's like more baffling and incompetent than I think
I've ever seen before.
Speaker 3 (01:10):
It's probably the most embarrassing.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
And certainly the most embarrassing and not even really malevolent,
just like outrageously incompetent. But I'm gonna let you take
over from here, Garrison.
Speaker 3 (01:22):
So, yeah, we are going to be talking about in
acorn involved shooting today. Happened that happened in Florida.
Speaker 2 (01:30):
Finally we know what the A and A cab stands for.
Speaker 3 (01:34):
That's right, son, We're gonna play some clips here, but
I think it's important to set the scene so you
kind of understand what you're hearing. So this cop walks
up to his patrol car. There is a suspect locked
in the back.
Speaker 2 (01:50):
Sunny day, Houston suburbs, big houses, wide streets.
Speaker 3 (01:53):
Yeah, now something happens as the cop is about to
open up the door. He then dives onto the ground.
It does two like action roles, double barrel rolls, and
then starts shooting at the car and starts yelling to
another officer who's in the area. And I think we'll
just we'll just play the rest here.
Speaker 2 (02:12):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (02:13):
The first clip is about thirty seconds long, and then
I just have a few shorter clips kind of that
that I've kind of stitched together that just just to
get a sense of like what he's saying and what
he's communicating after he opens fire on this patrol vehicle.
So here is here is that audio.
Speaker 1 (02:31):
Barn jot, Barn jut Bart.
Speaker 3 (02:35):
Shots Barn, you know who? I love? That love.
Speaker 2 (02:50):
What that I the car?
Speaker 3 (02:55):
Shot the car.
Speaker 2 (02:57):
Oh, I'm I'm good. I'm feel weird, but I'm good.
I might have hit my best Mark. It might have
hit my best I don't know, but I'm not.
Speaker 1 (03:21):
Okay, I don't know.
Speaker 2 (03:22):
I found like it.
Speaker 3 (03:27):
I got you.
Speaker 2 (03:28):
You wanted me, Jesse, come back? Uh uh Mark right back, dude,
of my hit? Okay, further back, further back to the back.
All right.
Speaker 3 (03:48):
So that was a lot of gunfire. Again, it is
shocking that no one died because it's not immediately evident
if you just watched the video. But there is somebody
who's trapped in the back of that car, and there's
multiple officers shooting at the car.
Speaker 2 (04:03):
And here's the thing. The guy. The distance the guy
is shooting from. God, from when I watched the video
last I would estimate maybe about twenty.
Speaker 3 (04:10):
Yards, probably even shorter than that.
Speaker 2 (04:12):
Maybe sure, maybe more like fifteen. It's medium to maybe
medium long range for a handgun. For a full size
handgun like that, I'd say it's about medium range. So
a competent shooter should be able to hit a target
about the size of a human torso at that distance
with most of the rounds. But he is not that.
When I say competent, that is somebody who is bracing
(04:33):
themselves and who has two hands on the gun. He
is shooting like a character in an action movie. And
I cannot imagine. So a lot of those rounds did
not even hit the truck. I imagine they went flying
into a neighborhood where we can hear children playing.
Speaker 3 (04:46):
Yes, Yes.
Speaker 2 (04:47):
So the.
Speaker 3 (04:50):
Officer who encountered this a core in which we will
get to in a sec was named Deputy Jesse Hernandez.
He'd been a cop for almost two years, and we'll
learn more about his background as we as we continue
on with this little story. The second officer, well not officer,
but a sergeant of this Sheriff's department named Beth Roberts,
(05:13):
and she's been a cop since two thousand and eight,
so she has a little bit more experience under her belt.
So let's kind of explain what happened here. So there
was a series of calls that happened earlier in the
day about a vehicle who was kind of driving erradically
around a nearby neighborhood, honking its horn kind of just
like making a lot of sounds at like three am.
The suspect was described as a black mail in his
(05:34):
late twenties. And then a few hours later, a separate
call was made by someone talking about how her boyfriend
has been refusing to return her vehicle and has been
sending her threatening text messages. So this caused police to
go to this girlfriend's house. She showed some of these
threatening text messages and they were talking with this woman
(05:55):
when her boyfriend approached the scene, so the suspect of
coach the police in front of his girlfriend's house. Deputy
Hernandez himself did a pat down to search for weapons
and observed a more thorough search once the suspect was handcuffed.
The missing car was located a few miles away, and
Hernandez was on his way back to the car to
do a tertiary search of the suspect, who is currently
(06:16):
locked in the back seat with handcuffs, and then as
Deputy Hernandez passed the passenger side door in acorn fell
onto the roof of his car, which is barely barely
audible in the bodycam video that we have access to, so.
Speaker 2 (06:32):
You would not notice it were you not listening for it.
Speaker 3 (06:35):
No. No. Three days later, Deputy Hernandez was interviewed by
two investigators as a part of the Office of Professional
Standards investigation into this incident of discharge gunfire and this
this interview in this report is probably one of the
most telling things about how police psychology operates. And Wow, okay,
(06:57):
so I'm gonna I'm gonna read through a few a
few quotes here from Deputy Hernandez. He talks about how, quote,
I'm about to reach for the door handle and simultaneously
I hear to at the time what I believe would
be a suppressed weapon off to the side. I definitely
heard this noise about the same time I felt an
(07:17):
impact on my right side, like an upper torso area.
I feel the impact. My legs just give out. I
don't know where I'm hit. I think I'm hit. I'm struck.
I roll back. I rolled to the like.
Speaker 2 (07:30):
He's the hard boiled detective in a novel.
Speaker 3 (07:33):
I rolled to the back of the car. Now I'm
stuck in the street, and I knew where the fire
where the shots came from. I or I believed where
they came from. It was right there as I'm reaching
for that door handle. So I'm laying behind the car.
I'm yelling shots fire, shots fired, shots fired. I returned
fire once I could get covered behind another vehicle that
was parked in the driveway there. So when asked to
(07:54):
describe what he felt, because he's not just claiming that
he heard a sound, he's gonna be keep he felt like
he got hit.
Speaker 2 (08:01):
Yeah, he felt an impact. He felt an impact, and
his legs went out from underneath him. Yes, which again
in the video, he clearly does a double barrel role.
He doesn't. That is not I have I have seen
people get hit and drop. They did not do double
barrel rolls like.
Speaker 3 (08:18):
A little action star. Yeah, yeh yeah, yeah, he says,
quote it felt like an impact to my upper torso
around here he motions up to his right shoulder on
the right side. It was like a sound impact, like
almost that quick. I guess I just loved it the
phrase it was like a sound impact.
Speaker 2 (08:36):
Yeah. I think he's saying I think what he's saying
from from reading it is that like we're missing some
of the body language that he was going to. It
was like sound and then like moving his hands to.
Speaker 3 (08:46):
Get sound impact, heard the sound, and then he got impact.
Speaker 2 (08:49):
I think he was actually trying to which is not
like them, which is actually not in person. Probably very awkward,
but yeah, it does. It comes across weird.
Speaker 3 (08:57):
And so more more funny than sound. Impact. For again,
any corn that's falling on a roof, we have quote,
my legs weren't working the way I wanted them to
be working. I think I yelled at one point to
Sergeant Roberts. I think I might have been hitting the
leg or something along those lines, because I was struggling
to get cover. I think at one point I reached
up to touch my head. I think I still had
(09:21):
the sound in my head. I wasn't sure if I
had been hit in the head. I was getting a
funny tingling around all sides of my body, and I
think some of that mighty just been adrenaline putting together
the fact that what I just heard and the impact
that I felt. I've never been shot before, so I
don't know what that's like or you know, unquote great
(09:47):
oh man, So he is, he's unsure if you would
be able to notice if he got shot in the
head or not, which is kind of interesting. I mean,
I'm sure he could get grazed, but like, come on, buddy.
Speaker 2 (09:57):
Yeah, yeah, I mean, it's one thing you It is
true that like you can be hit like an armor.
She will not be sure if you've gotten a hit
because it didn't penetrate. But you would also not mistake
a corn shrapnel hitting you reasonably for a bullet like
That's simply not a mistake a reasonable person is going
to make.
Speaker 3 (10:18):
So the investigator asked him, like if there was any
other sense that there could have been a gunfire, like
if you saw any like shattered glass coming from the car,
and Hernandez said no. When asked why he decided to
stop firing, Hernandez said that he stopped firing once he
emptied his clip, moved to cover behind it nearby Tesla
end quote, didn't observe any rounds coming back at me.
(10:42):
Just just great, because why there's the Hernandez claimed that
he was never able to see the suspect while in
the patrol car. And Hernandez remained behind cover till other
deputies arrived. And was rushed to a hospital, where only
then he was informed that he did not in fact,
it shot.
Speaker 2 (11:00):
It's amazing he made it all the way to a hospital,
So you had a lot of chances. You had a
lot of chances to not fuck that up.
Speaker 1 (11:09):
Man.
Speaker 3 (11:09):
As soon as the other cops arrive on the seat,
he's like, I don't know, I just I just feel
so weird.
Speaker 2 (11:16):
Yeah, buddy, you you had an adrenaline drop because you panicked,
Like that is why you feel weird.
Speaker 3 (11:22):
Like a lot always this like mirrors, the police fentanel things,
how they can like talk themselves into feeling into like
feeling symptoms. Yes, but all right, So Hernandez hadn't been
a cop for very long. He had he had no
prior law enforcement experience before joining this Florida Sheriff's department,
(11:44):
but he did attend to West Point and served as
a Special Forces Infantry officers in the Army for ten years.
So one could maybe assume that the deputy's outrageous behavior
was the result of some kind of PTSD from serving
as Special four. Like, maybe maybe I could kind of
explain some of what's going on here.
Speaker 2 (12:03):
I had multiple people when I posted this on Twitter
be like, oh, this is maybe people with like PTSD
shouldn't be cops. And I had to be like, no, no.
Speaker 3 (12:12):
No, Well see the funny thing about that is that
he never actually served in combat.
Speaker 2 (12:18):
No, this guy flew a fucking desk, yeah, which, like
you need that in a war. But like this, this
man did not have any combat trauma that caused him
to react this way.
Speaker 3 (12:28):
You know, like I totally I've had I've had PTSD.
You know, I've certainly gotten like I can get really
jumpy with certain sounds.
Speaker 2 (12:37):
Yeah, that is not that six months period where fireworks
made us all very unhappy.
Speaker 3 (12:41):
Yeah, like or like keys dropping was a big one
for me because it sounded like a tear guest canister
rolling on her bottles.
Speaker 2 (12:48):
But you know when in the many times that I
had bottles fall near me and set me off, or
that fireworks went off near me and set me off,
I was often carrying a gun and what I never
did was empty at vaguely in the direction of a car.
Speaker 3 (13:03):
So he never saw combat. He did claim that he
was aware of what suppressed gunfire sounded like, and he
affirmed that the noise he herd reminded him of suppressed gunfire.
Speaker 2 (13:15):
I'm sorry, bro, what the fuck?
Speaker 3 (13:18):
Under questioning her Nada said that he did not perceive
any other sounds, visuals, or physical indicators of gunfire besides
the initial tapping sound and his upper torso feeling. In
the interview, he was asked why he decided to fall
onto the pavement, and he said, I'm not sure if
it was adrenaline or just what, but the numbness of
my legs and realizing, Okay, I'm going to be on
the ground, but also realizing the windows are right there,
(13:39):
you know, i need to be on the ground anyway,
so I'm not exposed. So yeah, and that just kind
of led to my legs just kind of gave out
on me. Fascinating. He then was asked to explain to
the two action roles he performed on the road, and
her D just replied, Uh, the.
Speaker 2 (13:57):
Press STARNX at the same time was supposed to do
pretty much.
Speaker 3 (14:01):
He said, uh, the rolling kind of reaction to what
was going on, and we realizing like my legs are
not working the way I need them to work right now,
but I can roll over to the next vehicle. So
that's kind of where I was trying to get to unquote.
Speaker 2 (14:21):
Sure, okay, okay, bro.
Speaker 3 (14:23):
So after his little action roles, this is where he
started yelling shots fired. He emptied his clip into the
car and told the sergeant that shots were coming from
this vehicle, and she began firing in the vehicle as well.
At what point Hernandez tried to move off to the
side because he was concerned about being shot by the
other cop. He says, when I was done engaging the vehicle,
I was trying to get off to the side over
(14:43):
there because I was worried about possibly having possibly me
being in her line of fire.
Speaker 2 (14:48):
Now, sure, this is this is the first reasonable threat
that he has expressed. I would also be concerned about
them shooting me, and that is yes.
Speaker 3 (14:58):
So, after Hernandez is an a explanation of events, the
investigator showed him video stills of an acorn coming into
frame and bouncing off the roof of his car. I'm
just gonna read directly from the from the report, quote,
Deputy Hernandez asked, acorn. Investigator Hogan answered, acorn, I'm quote amazing, amazing,
(15:21):
just an amazing sentence.
Speaker 2 (15:25):
This is this is so perfectly how you would like
script it in a really good police procedural comedy. Like
if you had some A game writers on the team
and it's it's gonna take some really good you'd need
like the wire quality actors to pull those lines off.
Bunk and Bunk could have pulled them off right, Like.
Speaker 3 (15:45):
There's two more lines I want I want to get
to before before we take an out of break here.
When asked if the sound he heard could have been
an acorn instead of supress gunfire, the deputy answered, quote,
I'm not gonna say no, because I mean, that's but
what ten seconds pause and speaking. What I heard three
second pause and speaking sounded almost like twelve second pause
(16:06):
and speaking. But I heard sounded what I think would
be louder than an acorn hitting the roof of the car.
But there's obviously an a chord hitting the roof of
a car unquote.
Speaker 2 (16:18):
Amazing. Uh.
Speaker 3 (16:20):
The investigator then had to ask herd d does if
he was in general familiar with the sound of acorns,
which must be so embarrassing.
Speaker 2 (16:29):
That is that is that is a low point in
your career. That is.
Speaker 3 (16:36):
Hernad has said that he was. He was then asked
if the sound could have been what led him to
believe the car theft suspect shot him, to which the
deputy answered, it could be seven second pause and speaking,
but I don't think so, but it could be uncurt great.
So then Hernandez's lawyer said that they could maybe watch
(16:57):
the video again and see if see if the acorn
striking matches the time that he says that he heard
the sound, And then they deliberated for a little bit
and ultimately Hernandez refused to watch the video s second
time once he was told it was an acorn. I mean, yeah,
come on, what's there to do understandable?
Speaker 2 (17:18):
No, that's uh, that's that's going to really do some
damage to your self esteem right there.
Speaker 3 (17:22):
Less than a month later, just a few days before
a second interview was scheduled, he quit the job.
Speaker 2 (17:30):
So you know what first decision he's made them, I mean.
Speaker 3 (17:33):
Yeah, like, what what else can you do at this point?
Speaker 2 (17:36):
This story starts with a bad cop, but it ends
with a good one.
Speaker 3 (17:39):
Like imagine returning to work and everyone's gonna call you
like the acorn guy, Like you can't, you can't. It's
just an.
Speaker 2 (17:47):
Anytime there's like a there's like a fucking acorn tree
anywhere new you get like you okay, man, okay, do
you need to take.
Speaker 3 (17:53):
Him to call it? Did you call this? Hit the
watch out? Watch out?
Speaker 2 (18:00):
One hundred, one hundred times a day. Guys would be
getting on his radio being like I just saw an acorn.
Speaker 3 (18:06):
Dispatch, got a can you get in on a possible acorn? Negative? Negative?
Speaker 4 (18:11):
That is a pine cone? No need for assistance, just
some gunfire. We're good, We're good, not an acorn. Repeat,
We're safe, seene is safe. No acorns in sight. All right,
let's let's take it out of break and we will
return to hear about Sergeant Robert's recollection of events. Welcome
(18:42):
back to Acorn Cop streaming now on the Discovery Channel.
Two cops, one acorn. No survive, Actually no, thankfully everyone survived.
This would be much much, much less funny.
Speaker 2 (18:54):
We would not be laughing about this now. There is
some permanent psychological damage done to the guy who was
shot at but not shot and that is unjust and sad,
yet not enough that we are not willing folks. You
have a right to laugh at something like this, you know,
even if there are some consequences to it. That's just
keeping yourself sane in this world.
Speaker 3 (19:13):
So Sergeant Roberts was a member of the Sharf's department
for fifteen years. She has a bachelor's degree in criminology
from the Florida State University, so that's cool. She's been
teaching at the Criminal Justice Standards and Training Commission for
ten years. So I think one thing that led to
some of them thinking it could have been suppressed gunfire
(19:34):
is that in the threatening messages that the suspect had
shown to or had sent to his girlfriend, included was
a close up picture of this dark kind of gray
cylinder pressed up against the center of the dash in
his car. Less than two inches of the cylinder were visible.
No parts of a firearm could be seen. But they
(19:55):
believed that this was a suppressor, and the victim said
that he a suppressor. So I think that that's that
is one thing that happened in the interview kind of
or in the in the like exchange leading up to
this incident. But no one got any confirmation that he
had a gun on him. Again, he was searched two times.
There was no gun found on him. It is possible
(20:16):
to like hide a gun on you, It is much
more difficult to hide a gun with a suppressor. Like
that is that is a pretty a pretty big object.
Speaker 2 (20:25):
They are they are larger like it. Basically doubles are
more than doubles the length of the firearm, and it
also does so in such a way that makes it
difficult to carry in a concealed fashion.
Speaker 3 (20:37):
So when Sergeant Roberts was collecting an affidavit about the
stolen car, she said that she heard quote some type
of noise and shortly thereafter Jesse, who is Hernandez screaming?
Shots fired? Quote. It was loud enough that it got
my attention and made me think we're about to have
a fight with a prisoner or the suspect. Either he's
escaped somehow and Jesse is in a tussle with him.
(20:59):
I can't tell you he was that what it was,
but it made me look and then immediately heard Deputy
Hernandez screaming. Shots fired. So Sargent and Roberts right out
into the street. Quote. I saw that Hernandez was down.
He had his gun point to the back of his
patrol car. I was drawing my pistol and my magazine
that was in my meg pouch somehow flew out again.
Amazing police work.
Speaker 2 (21:19):
These guys incredible stuff. That's someone who never practiced.
Speaker 3 (21:24):
Yeah, at which point I thought there was a malfunction.
I thought that I dropped the magazine somehow I hit
the mega release on my firearm, and that that was
the magazine that fell out. Turns out it wasn't. It
was the one from my meg pouch.
Speaker 2 (21:38):
Uh huh.
Speaker 3 (21:38):
At which point I think I fired. So you just
have magazines fly you freak out, Yeah, start pulling your trigger.
Speaker 2 (21:46):
Yeah. I will say that last part extremely common experience.
Police officers are not well trained, and most of them
in terms of combat stuff, and most of them do
not shoot regularly. The FBI has done studies of like
people who kill police officers, and they nearly always train
way more often than the police officers they kill trained.
(22:07):
It's very Most cops are not putting one hundred and
fifty rounds a month downrange, and like, I fire three
hundred rounds a month in training, and I'm not particularly good.
That's what I consider like minimum level of competence. And
so it is extremely common in police shootings for the
officer to say I don't know how many I fired,
or I fired two shots and they fired seventeen. That
(22:27):
happens fun. Oftentimes even more than that, people will reload
and not realize that they reloaded and emptied a second
magazine because in an actual violent situation, and it is
for that lady, I will say that she just knows
that her partner is emptying his firearm. So for her,
she's this is less unreasonable, right, It is.
Speaker 3 (22:46):
More complicated for Sergeant Roberts. But I think it also
points to some of the inherent problems with policing.
Speaker 2 (22:54):
Oh good god, yes, and the way.
Speaker 3 (22:56):
Police are trained, Like the how quickly it was for
her to start fight, firing at a suspect who's locked
inside of a patrol car, who she knows has been
searched multiple times.
Speaker 2 (23:05):
And who she has not seen shooting.
Speaker 3 (23:07):
Yeah, she has not seen any gunfire, She's not seen
any evidence of that. She's heard one man screaming. And
how quickly they decide to use lethal force is I
think very notable. Quote. I fired at the vehicle because
I saw Deputy Hernandez down on the ground and he
tells me that shots are fired and he's hit, and
it scared the hell out of me. I thought I
was watching him be killed, which is yeah, it gets
(23:29):
to like how they are trained to constantly be in
fear for their lives, their fellow officers' lives. Quote. It
was the patrol car that was where the threat was
coming from. I'm thinking, we've we missed the gun and
the pack down somehow he shot Jesse from the car
and Jesse's down. Shots are being fired. I couldn't tell
you exactly where they were coming from, but I fired
because of my concern.
Speaker 2 (23:48):
On gut and you get this is a thing that
does not get represented in fiction. People don't like to
talk about it. This happens with soldiers too. I have
a friend who was shot in the leg by a
fifty count by one of our fifty cows one of
his guy's guns, because they were told anyone from this
building over that you see on the thermal scope is
(24:08):
an enemy. They saw him on the thermal scope and
they lit him up. It was just a series of
bad calls being made and nobody checking to confirm, because
you're in an actual chaotic, dangerous situation, checking to confirm
is there actually a threat in that area? They're just shooting,
you know. It's people panic all the time. It's one
of the problems with sending people with guns into neighborhoods.
(24:30):
Like this is part of why the way we do policing,
it's such a bad idea because there's no way to
train out all of this. You can train out acorn
guy maybe maybe, but they didn't, but you cannot train
out people panicking and doing things with guns that can
never be taken back.
Speaker 1 (24:45):
Well.
Speaker 3 (24:46):
And one other aspect is like Hernandez starts firing his
gun very shortly after he's yelling shots fired. Like getting
that linear cause of events can be tricky because like
you are hearing gunfire at the same time you were
hearing him yell shots fired because he is shooting. And
Roberts said that she wasn't sure if she or her
Endaz even shot first. Like all of your memory in
these instances can get really kind of blurry, like like
(25:08):
all of these like high stress scenarios, it actually can
be hard to remember the exact manner of.
Speaker 2 (25:13):
Oh, yes, easily, yes, she.
Speaker 3 (25:16):
Said quote I'm seeing him on the ground yelling shots fired.
I'm hit. I'm hit. I thought I thought I saw
a deputy get murdered. I was close enough to see
his facial expression that was fear, anxiety. It was it
was horrible. I'm seeing him kind of trip fall, stumble
something behind the vehicle. At some point he's able to
kind of post up, but he was stumbling, crawling on
(25:37):
the ground. I don't know how to explain it. He
wasn't standing up straight, he was not in a tactical position.
Was he was off as momentum, he was off balance,
he was standing behind that car. It did not look
like he was in control of himself.
Speaker 2 (25:49):
Yeah, no, yeah, that's like what she is saying. I'm
not gonna say this is like a good response, but
it makes sense to me that she reacted the way
she did. Most people would write which is why most
people should not be given firearms and legal immunity to
do whatever with them, right, But most people would have
reacted in a why broadly similar manner without training, you know,
(26:10):
without training and experience.
Speaker 3 (26:11):
Now, there's one way that she describes his kind of
like weird stumbling on the ground quote. The auditory tone
in his voice was terror. The best way to describe
it was like watching a baby giraffe trying to walk
for the first time. I sat of the road.
Speaker 2 (26:29):
Oh that is that is going to echo in his
mind until the day he dies.
Speaker 3 (26:35):
So baby giraffe something learning to walk for the first time.
Do you know what else is learning to walk? I
don't know. That doesn't really work. Now. Do you know
what else could perceive acorns as a threat to business?
Speaker 2 (26:57):
Oh? Yeah, we I mean the one thing all of
our sponsors agree on is that acorns and all trees
should be eliminated in the interest of better profit margins.
So dangerous, kill the natural world, live free. I want
(27:20):
to know one other thing as I'm talking about, like
why they I'm not surprised they reacted this way, and
what it says to me about like how I think.
Like I think that a group of moderately competent civilians
with concealed firearms would have responded better than both officers
in this situation, large not for the reason that they're
(27:40):
more smarter or better trained, because they probably aren't, but
because they go through the world carrying a gun knowing
that if anything they do with that gun, they're legally
accountable for every shot fired they're accountable for, which is
a different mind state than what police are trained to do,
which is the instant you feel endangered, you should draw
(28:01):
and be prepared to shoot or shoot immediately, because nothing
matters more than you getting home, and you have qualified
immunity on your side, right.
Speaker 3 (28:09):
Yeah, which allows you to interpret a very quiet tapping
sound as a lethal threat to your life. Now. Sergeant
Roberts said that she did observe Hernandez move himself into
kind of a kneeling shooting stance on his left knee
with his right foot planted in front, but still quote,
it seemed like his motor functions were not operating properly
(28:29):
from what I saw. He told me, again, shots are fire.
He's completely out in the open. No one would think
that's a good place to take a knee to tactically fire.
Speaker 1 (28:36):
So he was.
Speaker 3 (28:37):
He was still tried to respond in some way, but
still very very baby draft coded.
Speaker 2 (28:41):
It seems yeah, yeah, I mean that seems like a
constant thing for this fella.
Speaker 3 (28:46):
So. Roberts also admitted that she did not ever see
the suspect. She could not see inside the patrol car,
and she couldn't hear anything coming from that area. Quote.
If there would have been something going on in that vehicle,
I don't know if I nescessarily would have heard it
was I hearing or seeing the windows be blasted?
Speaker 2 (29:03):
Out.
Speaker 3 (29:03):
No, I couldn't see the right side of the vehicle,
but based on the circumstances, I'm thinking that somehow he
shot Jesse from the back and it had struck him
some way, somehow. I don't know if the individual's gotten
out of the car and it's on the other side,
you know, like he's escaped somehow. I couldn't see if
the door was wide open. I don't know if he's
gotten out and they've had a little tussle. Is he's
shooting from the back of the car. All these things
are going through my head, but the main thing is
(29:25):
that he's in the back of the car. He's got
a gun and we missed it, and somehow he shot
Deputy Hernandez. So she also couldn't remember who shot first,
but she denied the notion that she started shooting because
she thought Hernandez fired his gun first. She was confident
in her her own use of gunfire before she could
(29:45):
tell that Jesse was firing.
Speaker 2 (29:47):
Yeah. Interesting quote.
Speaker 3 (29:50):
The threat was someone had shot him. We had an
arm suspect from the back of the vehicle. Jesse was shot.
I'm watching him, you know, fumble on the road. How
do I give him more time. How do I draw
the attention to me? How do I save him? I
thought I was watching him get murdered, the tone in
his voice, look on his face, the physical reactions. I'm thinking,
we missed the gun and this is it. How do
I get to Jesse to save him. She talks about
how she quote couldn't let him be shot again again,
(30:12):
as all this is like so confident that this has happened,
and they're so confident in their own use of force.
She was also concerned that if the suspect got away,
other people's lives could be in danger, like his girlfriend
who was nearby and the friend who was talking to
police about their domestic issue. Quote, there was a threat
in the back of the patrol car. I had a
deputy that was on the ground that was still a
(30:33):
threat to Jesse's life. I needed to provide him some
sort of cover or bring the attention to me. I'm
watching him die. I've got to do something. I've got
to do something. There's that just like overall constantly throughout
this interview with the Professional Standards Investigation, she's just constantly
saying how she thought that this man was gonna die.
That's why she responded the way she did. Like she
(30:54):
talks about how she can't render aid if there's still
a threat, she has to like get regain control the situation.
Speaker 2 (31:01):
All of those are reasonable things to say. Yeah, all
of those are reasonable things to say in a ReHO gunfight.
Speaker 3 (31:07):
Yes, it's just a little bit less less valid when
the ending incident is an acorn falling on a roof. Yes,
and you're shooting directly at a man.
Speaker 2 (31:19):
Who's your own car been searched two.
Speaker 3 (31:22):
Times and is trapped inside, who has handcuffs on. Like.
So Yeah, after both cops fired off this large valley
of bullets, they both repositioned behind cover, called in more backup,
and Roberts tended to manage the situation and the other
individuals in the area and eventually check in on Deputy Hernandez. Quote,
the threat was still a threat until we were able
(31:44):
to remove him from the car. Again, they're not viewing
him as a person, They're viewing him as a threat.
Like that is that is like he's no longer like
a human being. He is he is a threat. That
is what he represents now.
Speaker 2 (31:56):
Yeah, well, and that is that is how they're trained
to talk, and that is by the way like in
a court of law, how you should talk, right, you don't.
You would not say if you were involved in a
legal defensive shooting, I shot to kill, you would say
I shot to stop the threat. That is like how
people are trained, because that's what plays best in a court. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (32:14):
No, she all of her interview is very polished. She's
she's like very she's she's been a caught for fifteen years,
like she yeah, is she knows what she's saying here.
Speaker 2 (32:23):
Yes, she's been coached before. Yeah, she's she's aware.
Speaker 3 (32:26):
So after they were able to get to cover, she
called in more resources. Quote, that's when we were able
to treat it as more of a barricaded armed suspect situation.
This poor dude, Yeah, like what do you do? Like
you're hanging in the back of the car like everywhere.
Speaker 2 (32:41):
Like like it seems like this guy is guilty of
having a little bit of having an emotional breakdown with
his partner and doing things he should not have done,
none of which the penalty for is getting shot at
while strapped into a car.
Speaker 3 (32:54):
Yeah, he stole his girlfriend's car, He sent her threatening messages.
He was described as being a massive in the past yeah, yeah,
there's bad things, but that doesn't mean you can get
executed by police because they hurt an a chord like.
Speaker 2 (33:06):
No, that is not that is not what our society
has deemed the punishment for those options, for those behaviors
should be.
Speaker 3 (33:13):
So Roberts closed this interview by saying, quote, I don't
think there's anything funny about it. It just went from
zero to one hundred within the drop of a hat.
I know we talk about it all the time, but
when it does, it does. And she's talking about how,
like how fast the situation escalates, like from a very
standard interaction towards you're now multiple people are shooting, like
(33:34):
this is it happens so quickly. It went from zero
to one hundred within the drop of a hat.
Speaker 2 (33:39):
Yeah, that's that is what happens with shootings.
Speaker 3 (33:42):
She knew that Hernandez was prior military and when in
training Hernandez was training on her shift, she described him
as quote a very squared away person, somebody that if
they tell you something, you don't question it. I wanted
Jesse on my shift. When I observed him in high
stressful situations, he reacted appropriately, He wasn't afraid to respond
(34:03):
and he's I think that last part is certainly true.
He was not afraid to respond well.
Speaker 2 (34:07):
And this is why, again, when the response for a
lot of people when I would talk about this to
them is suspecting it had something to do with his
military training that he responded this way. Soldiers aren't trained
this way. Again, this is so content in the field.
But soldiers are generally trained to not air on the
side of opening fire blindly because war crimes are a
(34:29):
thing they're concerned about and they have a sense of
professional pride against Again, not to say that they do
not kill innocent people. They do all the time, because
that's what war is. But this is not the way.
So this is police training. This guy's bias towards reacting
this way is the result of police training, not special
forces training.
Speaker 3 (34:47):
She kind of reaffirmed her trust in Hernandez as a
person who was like reliable, saying when they were on
night shift during training, quote, he acted appropriately, He did
not lose control of his emotions. I have a lot
of respect for him. Actually, when he tells you something,
it's not something like are you sure you know he
tell you something and that's what's happening, or that's what happened.
I don't think there's anything malicious about what he did.
(35:08):
I'm not mad at him. I'm not upset about it
because I truly believe that he thought that's what was happening, unquote,
which is again, it.
Speaker 2 (35:15):
Just i'd be pissed you almost, Like.
Speaker 3 (35:19):
I don't if if I was tricked into almost killing someone,
I don't. I don't understand this reaction.
Speaker 2 (35:25):
Like it's it's this thin blue line shit, right.
Speaker 3 (35:28):
Yeah, like like they have to group together so so hard.
Speaker 2 (35:32):
Yeah, it's it's and it's like this guy got you
into a situation where you could have shot a child,
Like I would never forgive someone who put me in
that position for no good reason, right, Like it's why
that's such such an insane response to me, Sopran.
Speaker 3 (35:52):
She has to keep affirming that he has like a
good judgment, and it's it's so bizarre, like he very
clearly doesn't. Dude, you'll watch the video. Oh, it'd be.
Speaker 2 (36:01):
One thing if like they were under fire and he
shot and his bullet went wide and hit a civilian
and it's no, that's like absolutely just a horrible accident.
But like his judgment wasn't bad. It was just a
terrible situation. This is so different, and that she's still
going to bat for him. Says everything about cop cops,
cop brain.
Speaker 3 (36:19):
Yeah, there's a few lines that I want to read
before we close out here that are in the conclusion
of the of the report.
Speaker 2 (36:27):
Can't wait.
Speaker 3 (36:28):
They describe Hernandez's legs as quote, stopped working correctly. But
I think it's just a really funny way to phrase it.
Speaker 2 (36:35):
I would describe his brain that way.
Speaker 3 (36:37):
But yeah, his legs weren't responding as he intended. But
there was no evidence to support anything impacted Deputy Hernandez.
No defects are found on his uniform or his blistering
vest to support the impact. Hernandez's response was not objectively reasonable,
so they they ruled that hernandez His response was not
objectively reasonable, that it was not appropriate.
Speaker 2 (36:57):
Positively surprised about that, but.
Speaker 3 (37:00):
Found Sergeant Roberts response as being reasonable because she believed
Hernandez has been shot because of his tone of voice,
his stumbling, attempts to move and stand up, and as
a parent quote lack of control over his body.
Speaker 2 (37:12):
Yeah, I would not call it. I wouldn't say her
response is reasonable. I would say her response is what
I would expect most people to do.
Speaker 3 (37:19):
No, or it is reasonable in terms of how police
procedure operates, like she followed the correct protocols for interacting
as a police officer.
Speaker 2 (37:28):
Yeah. I don't believe under the law she's she would
have been found liable by any court.
Speaker 3 (37:33):
No, they said. Quote. Roberts found out Hernandez to be
a reliable depity that she could trust. She had no
reason to doubt what Hernandez had been telling her. She
described the auditory tone of Hernandez's voice as terror, the
look on his face as being quote consistent with being
in fear. I love that kind of cop speak, consistent
with being in fear.
Speaker 2 (37:53):
Yeah, he looked scared. Yeah amazing. Oh, I do want
to go over one thing before we come out, because
this is again something I've been asked by people, and
you know, maybe this is actionable. If you ever found
yourself handcuffed in the back of a police car and
they start shooting at you, you should know how this
guy survived. Because reading the interview with him, he was like,
as soon as I realized they were shooting at me,
(38:13):
I like flung myself down sideways and laid flat. I
think in front of the seat. He might have been
on the seat. I would get in front of the
seat if you can. But the reason he survived is
that handguns. Number one, police carry hollow points in their handguns,
which is a bullet that has a hole in the
(38:33):
slug the thing that goes into somebody. And the reason
why you make a hollow point is that a hollow
point expands immediately upon impact, so it doesn't penetrate as well.
It will not go through armor, and it will not
go through objects very well. But when it hits meat,
it expands and so instead of going through a body,
(38:55):
it stops and it imparts all of the force from
the bullet into that body, so it is better at
stopping people. But what that means is when someone is
shooting at something like a car and shooting into the
back of a car, and you have that whole reinforced
trunk and backseat of a police car to go through,
those nine millimeters rounds are unlikely to penetrate very far.
So if you are laying down in front of the
(39:16):
seat or flat on the seat, your odds of not
getting hit are pretty good. Like he had. I'm not
surprised he survived. Having done what he did. You know,
if you're sitting up and you've got body parts that
are like in view with of the windows, you're very
likely to get hit. But because he did what he did,
he essentially saved his own life, is what it's my
(39:38):
interpretation of what I've read.
Speaker 3 (39:40):
Yeah, no, I mean it's it is a terrifying scenario
that there was. There was an instant recently of this
officer who made his first ever arrest. He had two
suspects locked in the back and he got distracted about driving.
He drove his car off the road into a lake,
and both of the suspects drowned.
Speaker 2 (40:00):
Jesus fucking Christ, Like.
Speaker 3 (40:01):
This is this is like all these things point towards
just inherent problems with the policing system.
Speaker 2 (40:07):
Cops bad avoid at all costs.
Speaker 3 (40:09):
It's terrifying, Like it's it is like these people can
just act like this can kidnap, people can do all
these things and face basically no repercussions at least turn
end as is no longer a cop, which is good,
but like that doesn't fix any of the underlying problems
with training that cause people to react like this in
the face of a squirrel armed with an acorn being
(40:30):
the most dangerous thing that you can encounter.
Speaker 2 (40:33):
Yeah, it's very bad police work. Avoid cops.
Speaker 3 (40:38):
Yeah, yeah, pretty much, pretty much. So, Yeah, that is
that is what we have to say on the acorn
involved shooting.
Speaker 2 (40:45):
Yeah, great stuff.
Speaker 3 (40:47):
Watch out for acorns, watch out for droops. Also dangerous.
They can fall off a tree.
Speaker 2 (40:51):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (40:52):
Pine cones can sometimes be lethal.
Speaker 2 (40:54):
Oh they call those the widow makers.
Speaker 3 (40:57):
Eyes on the sky folks. You never know, all right
that Bye?
Speaker 1 (41:02):
Hey, It could Happen here as a production of cool
Zone Media. For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit
our website coolzonemedia dot com or check us out on
the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.
You can find sources for It could Happen Here, updated
monthly at coolzonemedia dot com slash sources. Thanks for listening.
Al Zone Media.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
Ah welcome back to It Could Happen Here, a podcast
where the host Robert Evans, one of the hosts, has
recently recovered from a terrible, terrible sickness by by engaging
in some fascinating experiments with theah flu, largely using a
friend's diabetic needles, just shooting it straight into the veins
(00:26):
my co host today, Garrison Davis, Have you ever shot
flu medication into your veins?
Speaker 3 (00:31):
Garrison, No, I've only shot one thing into my veins.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
Well, speaking of shooting, today's episode of It Could Happen
Here is about a shooting it before you are like, oh, man,
I don't really have it in me to listen to
a horrible story about people dying today. Don't worry. Nobody
gets shot in this story, Thank God.
Speaker 3 (00:50):
Miraculously nobody gets shot, Like against all odds, it's stunning
that nobody got shot.
Speaker 2 (00:57):
This is the tale of a police officer fucking up.
Not worse than any cop has ever fucked up, because
again he didn't kill anybody, but fucking up in a
way that's like more baffling and incompetent than I think
I've ever seen before.
Speaker 3 (01:10):
It's probably the most embarrassing.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
And certainly the most embarrassing and not even really malevolent,
just like outrageously incompetent. But I'm gonna let you take
over from here, Garrison.
Speaker 3 (01:22):
So, yeah, we are going to be talking about in
acorn involved shooting today. Happened that happened in Florida.
Speaker 2 (01:30):
Finally we know what the A and A cab stands for.
Speaker 3 (01:34):
That's right, son, We're gonna play some clips here, but
I think it's important to set the scene so you
kind of understand what you're hearing. So this cop walks
up to his patrol car. There is a suspect locked
in the back.
Speaker 2 (01:50):
Sunny day, Houston suburbs, big houses, wide streets.
Speaker 3 (01:53):
Yeah, now something happens as the cop is about to
open up the door. He then dives onto the ground.
It does two like action roles, double barrel rolls, and
then starts shooting at the car and starts yelling to
another officer who's in the area. And I think we'll
just we'll just play the rest here.
Speaker 2 (02:12):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (02:13):
The first clip is about thirty seconds long, and then
I just have a few shorter clips kind of that
that I've kind of stitched together that just just to
get a sense of like what he's saying and what
he's communicating after he opens fire on this patrol vehicle.
So here is here is that audio.
Speaker 1 (02:31):
Barn jot, Barn jut Bart.
Speaker 3 (02:35):
Shots Barn, you know who? I love? That love.
Speaker 2 (02:50):
What that I the car?
Speaker 3 (02:55):
Shot the car.
Speaker 2 (02:57):
Oh, I'm I'm good. I'm feel weird, but I'm good.
I might have hit my best Mark. It might have
hit my best I don't know, but I'm not.
Speaker 1 (03:21):
Okay, I don't know.
Speaker 2 (03:22):
I found like it.
Speaker 3 (03:27):
I got you.
Speaker 2 (03:28):
You wanted me, Jesse, come back? Uh uh Mark right back, dude,
of my hit? Okay, further back, further back to the back.
All right.
Speaker 3 (03:48):
So that was a lot of gunfire. Again, it is
shocking that no one died because it's not immediately evident
if you just watched the video. But there is somebody
who's trapped in the back of that car, and there's
multiple officers shooting at the car.
Speaker 2 (04:03):
And here's the thing. The guy. The distance the guy
is shooting from. God, from when I watched the video
last I would estimate maybe about twenty.
Speaker 3 (04:10):
Yards, probably even shorter than that.
Speaker 2 (04:12):
Maybe sure, maybe more like fifteen. It's medium to maybe
medium long range for a handgun. For a full size
handgun like that, I'd say it's about medium range. So
a competent shooter should be able to hit a target
about the size of a human torso at that distance
with most of the rounds. But he is not that.
When I say competent, that is somebody who is bracing
(04:33):
themselves and who has two hands on the gun. He
is shooting like a character in an action movie. And
I cannot imagine. So a lot of those rounds did
not even hit the truck. I imagine they went flying
into a neighborhood where we can hear children playing.
Speaker 3 (04:46):
Yes, Yes.
Speaker 2 (04:47):
So the.
Speaker 3 (04:50):
Officer who encountered this a core in which we will
get to in a sec was named Deputy Jesse Hernandez.
He'd been a cop for almost two years, and we'll
learn more about his background as we as we continue
on with this little story. The second officer, well not officer,
but a sergeant of this Sheriff's department named Beth Roberts,
(05:13):
and she's been a cop since two thousand and eight,
so she has a little bit more experience under her belt.
So let's kind of explain what happened here. So there
was a series of calls that happened earlier in the
day about a vehicle who was kind of driving erradically
around a nearby neighborhood, honking its horn kind of just
like making a lot of sounds at like three am.
The suspect was described as a black mail in his
(05:34):
late twenties. And then a few hours later, a separate
call was made by someone talking about how her boyfriend
has been refusing to return her vehicle and has been
sending her threatening text messages. So this caused police to
go to this girlfriend's house. She showed some of these
threatening text messages and they were talking with this woman
(05:55):
when her boyfriend approached the scene, so the suspect of
coach the police in front of his girlfriend's house. Deputy
Hernandez himself did a pat down to search for weapons
and observed a more thorough search once the suspect was handcuffed.
The missing car was located a few miles away, and
Hernandez was on his way back to the car to
do a tertiary search of the suspect, who is currently
(06:16):
locked in the back seat with handcuffs, and then as
Deputy Hernandez passed the passenger side door in acorn fell
onto the roof of his car, which is barely barely
audible in the bodycam video that we have access to, so.
Speaker 2 (06:32):
You would not notice it were you not listening for it.
Speaker 3 (06:35):
No. No. Three days later, Deputy Hernandez was interviewed by
two investigators as a part of the Office of Professional
Standards investigation into this incident of discharge gunfire and this
this interview in this report is probably one of the
most telling things about how police psychology operates. And Wow, okay,
(06:57):
so I'm gonna I'm gonna read through a few a
few quotes here from Deputy Hernandez. He talks about how, quote,
I'm about to reach for the door handle and simultaneously
I hear to at the time what I believe would
be a suppressed weapon off to the side. I definitely
heard this noise about the same time I felt an
(07:17):
impact on my right side, like an upper torso area.
I feel the impact. My legs just give out. I
don't know where I'm hit. I think I'm hit. I'm struck.
I roll back. I rolled to the like.
Speaker 2 (07:30):
He's the hard boiled detective in a novel.
Speaker 3 (07:33):
I rolled to the back of the car. Now I'm
stuck in the street, and I knew where the fire
where the shots came from. I or I believed where
they came from. It was right there as I'm reaching
for that door handle. So I'm laying behind the car.
I'm yelling shots fire, shots fired, shots fired. I returned
fire once I could get covered behind another vehicle that
was parked in the driveway there. So when asked to
(07:54):
describe what he felt, because he's not just claiming that
he heard a sound, he's gonna be keep he felt like
he got hit.
Speaker 2 (08:01):
Yeah, he felt an impact. He felt an impact, and
his legs went out from underneath him. Yes, which again
in the video, he clearly does a double barrel role.
He doesn't. That is not I have I have seen
people get hit and drop. They did not do double
barrel rolls like.
Speaker 3 (08:18):
A little action star. Yeah, yeh yeah, yeah, he says,
quote it felt like an impact to my upper torso
around here he motions up to his right shoulder on
the right side. It was like a sound impact, like
almost that quick. I guess I just loved it the
phrase it was like a sound impact.
Speaker 2 (08:36):
Yeah. I think he's saying I think what he's saying
from from reading it is that like we're missing some
of the body language that he was going to. It
was like sound and then like moving his hands to.
Speaker 3 (08:46):
Get sound impact, heard the sound, and then he got impact.
Speaker 2 (08:49):
I think he was actually trying to which is not
like them, which is actually not in person. Probably very awkward,
but yeah, it does. It comes across weird.
Speaker 3 (08:57):
And so more more funny than sound. Impact. For again,
any corn that's falling on a roof, we have quote,
my legs weren't working the way I wanted them to
be working. I think I yelled at one point to
Sergeant Roberts. I think I might have been hitting the
leg or something along those lines, because I was struggling
to get cover. I think at one point I reached
up to touch my head. I think I still had
(09:21):
the sound in my head. I wasn't sure if I
had been hit in the head. I was getting a
funny tingling around all sides of my body, and I
think some of that mighty just been adrenaline putting together
the fact that what I just heard and the impact
that I felt. I've never been shot before, so I
don't know what that's like or you know, unquote great
(09:47):
oh man, So he is, he's unsure if you would
be able to notice if he got shot in the
head or not, which is kind of interesting. I mean,
I'm sure he could get grazed, but like, come on, buddy.
Speaker 2 (09:57):
Yeah, yeah, I mean, it's one thing you It is
true that like you can be hit like an armor.
She will not be sure if you've gotten a hit
because it didn't penetrate. But you would also not mistake
a corn shrapnel hitting you reasonably for a bullet like
That's simply not a mistake a reasonable person is going
to make.
Speaker 3 (10:18):
So the investigator asked him, like if there was any
other sense that there could have been a gunfire, like
if you saw any like shattered glass coming from the car,
and Hernandez said no. When asked why he decided to
stop firing, Hernandez said that he stopped firing once he
emptied his clip, moved to cover behind it nearby Tesla
end quote, didn't observe any rounds coming back at me.
(10:42):
Just just great, because why there's the Hernandez claimed that
he was never able to see the suspect while in
the patrol car. And Hernandez remained behind cover till other
deputies arrived. And was rushed to a hospital, where only
then he was informed that he did not in fact,
it shot.
Speaker 2 (11:00):
It's amazing he made it all the way to a hospital,
So you had a lot of chances. You had a
lot of chances to not fuck that up.
Speaker 1 (11:09):
Man.
Speaker 3 (11:09):
As soon as the other cops arrive on the seat,
he's like, I don't know, I just I just feel
so weird.
Speaker 2 (11:16):
Yeah, buddy, you you had an adrenaline drop because you panicked,
Like that is why you feel weird.
Speaker 3 (11:22):
Like a lot always this like mirrors, the police fentanel things,
how they can like talk themselves into feeling into like
feeling symptoms. Yes, but all right, So Hernandez hadn't been
a cop for very long. He had he had no
prior law enforcement experience before joining this Florida Sheriff's department,
(11:44):
but he did attend to West Point and served as
a Special Forces Infantry officers in the Army for ten years.
So one could maybe assume that the deputy's outrageous behavior
was the result of some kind of PTSD from serving
as Special four. Like, maybe maybe I could kind of
explain some of what's going on here.
Speaker 2 (12:03):
I had multiple people when I posted this on Twitter
be like, oh, this is maybe people with like PTSD
shouldn't be cops. And I had to be like, no, no.
Speaker 3 (12:12):
No, Well see the funny thing about that is that
he never actually served in combat.
Speaker 2 (12:18):
No, this guy flew a fucking desk, yeah, which, like
you need that in a war. But like this, this
man did not have any combat trauma that caused him
to react this way.
Speaker 3 (12:28):
You know, like I totally I've had I've had PTSD.
You know, I've certainly gotten like I can get really
jumpy with certain sounds.
Speaker 2 (12:37):
Yeah, that is not that six months period where fireworks
made us all very unhappy.
Speaker 3 (12:41):
Yeah, like or like keys dropping was a big one
for me because it sounded like a tear guest canister
rolling on her bottles.
Speaker 2 (12:48):
But you know when in the many times that I
had bottles fall near me and set me off, or
that fireworks went off near me and set me off,
I was often carrying a gun and what I never
did was empty at vaguely in the direction of a car.
Speaker 3 (13:03):
So he never saw combat. He did claim that he
was aware of what suppressed gunfire sounded like, and he
affirmed that the noise he herd reminded him of suppressed gunfire.
Speaker 2 (13:15):
I'm sorry, bro, what the fuck?
Speaker 3 (13:18):
Under questioning her Nada said that he did not perceive
any other sounds, visuals, or physical indicators of gunfire besides
the initial tapping sound and his upper torso feeling. In
the interview, he was asked why he decided to fall
onto the pavement, and he said, I'm not sure if
it was adrenaline or just what, but the numbness of
my legs and realizing, Okay, I'm going to be on
the ground, but also realizing the windows are right there,
(13:39):
you know, i need to be on the ground anyway,
so I'm not exposed. So yeah, and that just kind
of led to my legs just kind of gave out
on me. Fascinating. He then was asked to explain to
the two action roles he performed on the road, and
her D just replied, Uh, the.
Speaker 2 (13:57):
Press STARNX at the same time was supposed to do
pretty much.
Speaker 3 (14:01):
He said, uh, the rolling kind of reaction to what
was going on, and we realizing like my legs are
not working the way I need them to work right now,
but I can roll over to the next vehicle. So
that's kind of where I was trying to get to unquote.
Speaker 2 (14:21):
Sure, okay, okay, bro.
Speaker 3 (14:23):
So after his little action roles, this is where he
started yelling shots fired. He emptied his clip into the
car and told the sergeant that shots were coming from
this vehicle, and she began firing in the vehicle as well.
At what point Hernandez tried to move off to the
side because he was concerned about being shot by the
other cop. He says, when I was done engaging the vehicle,
I was trying to get off to the side over
(14:43):
there because I was worried about possibly having possibly me
being in her line of fire.
Speaker 2 (14:48):
Now, sure, this is this is the first reasonable threat
that he has expressed. I would also be concerned about
them shooting me, and that is yes.
Speaker 3 (14:58):
So, after Hernandez is an a explanation of events, the
investigator showed him video stills of an acorn coming into
frame and bouncing off the roof of his car. I'm
just gonna read directly from the from the report, quote,
Deputy Hernandez asked, acorn. Investigator Hogan answered, acorn, I'm quote amazing, amazing,
(15:21):
just an amazing sentence.
Speaker 2 (15:25):
This is this is so perfectly how you would like
script it in a really good police procedural comedy. Like
if you had some A game writers on the team
and it's it's gonna take some really good you'd need
like the wire quality actors to pull those lines off.
Bunk and Bunk could have pulled them off right, Like.
Speaker 3 (15:45):
There's two more lines I want I want to get
to before before we take an out of break here.
When asked if the sound he heard could have been
an acorn instead of supress gunfire, the deputy answered, quote,
I'm not gonna say no, because I mean, that's but
what ten seconds pause and speaking. What I heard three
second pause and speaking sounded almost like twelve second pause
(16:06):
and speaking. But I heard sounded what I think would
be louder than an acorn hitting the roof of the car.
But there's obviously an a chord hitting the roof of
a car unquote.
Speaker 2 (16:18):
Amazing. Uh.
Speaker 3 (16:20):
The investigator then had to ask herd d does if
he was in general familiar with the sound of acorns,
which must be so embarrassing.
Speaker 2 (16:29):
That is that is that is a low point in
your career. That is.
Speaker 3 (16:36):
Hernad has said that he was. He was then asked
if the sound could have been what led him to
believe the car theft suspect shot him, to which the
deputy answered, it could be seven second pause and speaking,
but I don't think so, but it could be uncurt great.
So then Hernandez's lawyer said that they could maybe watch
(16:57):
the video again and see if see if the acorn
striking matches the time that he says that he heard
the sound, And then they deliberated for a little bit
and ultimately Hernandez refused to watch the video s second
time once he was told it was an acorn. I mean, yeah,
come on, what's there to do understandable?
Speaker 2 (17:18):
No, that's uh, that's that's going to really do some
damage to your self esteem right there.
Speaker 3 (17:22):
Less than a month later, just a few days before
a second interview was scheduled, he quit the job.
Speaker 2 (17:30):
So you know what first decision he's made them, I mean.
Speaker 3 (17:33):
Yeah, like, what what else can you do at this point?
Speaker 2 (17:36):
This story starts with a bad cop, but it ends
with a good one.
Speaker 3 (17:39):
Like imagine returning to work and everyone's gonna call you
like the acorn guy, Like you can't, you can't. It's
just an.
Speaker 2 (17:47):
Anytime there's like a there's like a fucking acorn tree
anywhere new you get like you okay, man, okay, do
you need to take.
Speaker 3 (17:53):
Him to call it? Did you call this? Hit the
watch out? Watch out?
Speaker 2 (18:00):
One hundred, one hundred times a day. Guys would be
getting on his radio being like I just saw an acorn.
Speaker 3 (18:06):
Dispatch, got a can you get in on a possible acorn? Negative? Negative?
Speaker 4 (18:11):
That is a pine cone? No need for assistance, just
some gunfire. We're good, We're good, not an acorn. Repeat,
We're safe, seene is safe. No acorns in sight. All right,
let's let's take it out of break and we will
return to hear about Sergeant Robert's recollection of events. Welcome
(18:42):
back to Acorn Cop streaming now on the Discovery Channel.
Two cops, one acorn. No survive, Actually no, thankfully everyone survived.
This would be much much, much less funny.
Speaker 2 (18:54):
We would not be laughing about this now. There is
some permanent psychological damage done to the guy who was
shot at but not shot and that is unjust and sad,
yet not enough that we are not willing folks. You
have a right to laugh at something like this, you know,
even if there are some consequences to it. That's just
keeping yourself sane in this world.
Speaker 3 (19:13):
So Sergeant Roberts was a member of the Sharf's department
for fifteen years. She has a bachelor's degree in criminology
from the Florida State University, so that's cool. She's been
teaching at the Criminal Justice Standards and Training Commission for
ten years. So I think one thing that led to
some of them thinking it could have been suppressed gunfire
(19:34):
is that in the threatening messages that the suspect had
shown to or had sent to his girlfriend, included was
a close up picture of this dark kind of gray
cylinder pressed up against the center of the dash in
his car. Less than two inches of the cylinder were visible.
No parts of a firearm could be seen. But they
(19:55):
believed that this was a suppressor, and the victim said
that he a suppressor. So I think that that's that
is one thing that happened in the interview kind of
or in the in the like exchange leading up to
this incident. But no one got any confirmation that he
had a gun on him. Again, he was searched two times.
There was no gun found on him. It is possible
(20:16):
to like hide a gun on you, It is much
more difficult to hide a gun with a suppressor. Like
that is that is a pretty a pretty big object.
Speaker 2 (20:25):
They are they are larger like it. Basically doubles are
more than doubles the length of the firearm, and it
also does so in such a way that makes it
difficult to carry in a concealed fashion.
Speaker 3 (20:37):
So when Sergeant Roberts was collecting an affidavit about the
stolen car, she said that she heard quote some type
of noise and shortly thereafter Jesse, who is Hernandez screaming?
Shots fired? Quote. It was loud enough that it got
my attention and made me think we're about to have
a fight with a prisoner or the suspect. Either he's
escaped somehow and Jesse is in a tussle with him.
(20:59):
I can't tell you he was that what it was,
but it made me look and then immediately heard Deputy
Hernandez screaming. Shots fired. So Sargent and Roberts right out
into the street. Quote. I saw that Hernandez was down.
He had his gun point to the back of his
patrol car. I was drawing my pistol and my magazine
that was in my meg pouch somehow flew out again.
Amazing police work.
Speaker 2 (21:19):
These guys incredible stuff. That's someone who never practiced.
Speaker 3 (21:24):
Yeah, at which point I thought there was a malfunction.
I thought that I dropped the magazine somehow I hit
the mega release on my firearm, and that that was
the magazine that fell out. Turns out it wasn't. It
was the one from my meg pouch.
Speaker 2 (21:38):
Uh huh.
Speaker 3 (21:38):
At which point I think I fired. So you just
have magazines fly you freak out, Yeah, start pulling your trigger.
Speaker 2 (21:46):
Yeah. I will say that last part extremely common experience.
Police officers are not well trained, and most of them
in terms of combat stuff, and most of them do
not shoot regularly. The FBI has done studies of like
people who kill police officers, and they nearly always train
way more often than the police officers they kill trained.
(22:07):
It's very Most cops are not putting one hundred and
fifty rounds a month downrange, and like, I fire three
hundred rounds a month in training, and I'm not particularly good.
That's what I consider like minimum level of competence. And
so it is extremely common in police shootings for the
officer to say I don't know how many I fired,
or I fired two shots and they fired seventeen. That
(22:27):
happens fun. Oftentimes even more than that, people will reload
and not realize that they reloaded and emptied a second
magazine because in an actual violent situation, and it is
for that lady, I will say that she just knows
that her partner is emptying his firearm. So for her,
she's this is less unreasonable, right, It is.
Speaker 3 (22:46):
More complicated for Sergeant Roberts. But I think it also
points to some of the inherent problems with policing.
Speaker 2 (22:54):
Oh good god, yes, and the way.
Speaker 3 (22:56):
Police are trained, Like the how quickly it was for
her to start fight, firing at a suspect who's locked
inside of a patrol car, who she knows has been
searched multiple times.
Speaker 2 (23:05):
And who she has not seen shooting.
Speaker 3 (23:07):
Yeah, she has not seen any gunfire, She's not seen
any evidence of that. She's heard one man screaming. And
how quickly they decide to use lethal force is I
think very notable. Quote. I fired at the vehicle because
I saw Deputy Hernandez down on the ground and he
tells me that shots are fired and he's hit, and
it scared the hell out of me. I thought I
was watching him be killed, which is yeah, it gets
(23:29):
to like how they are trained to constantly be in
fear for their lives, their fellow officers' lives. Quote. It
was the patrol car that was where the threat was
coming from. I'm thinking, we've we missed the gun and
the pack down somehow he shot Jesse from the car
and Jesse's down. Shots are being fired. I couldn't tell
you exactly where they were coming from, but I fired
because of my concern.
Speaker 2 (23:48):
On gut and you get this is a thing that
does not get represented in fiction. People don't like to
talk about it. This happens with soldiers too. I have
a friend who was shot in the leg by a
fifty count by one of our fifty cows one of
his guy's guns, because they were told anyone from this
building over that you see on the thermal scope is
(24:08):
an enemy. They saw him on the thermal scope and
they lit him up. It was just a series of
bad calls being made and nobody checking to confirm, because
you're in an actual chaotic, dangerous situation, checking to confirm
is there actually a threat in that area? They're just shooting,
you know. It's people panic all the time. It's one
of the problems with sending people with guns into neighborhoods.
(24:30):
Like this is part of why the way we do policing,
it's such a bad idea because there's no way to
train out all of this. You can train out acorn
guy maybe maybe, but they didn't, but you cannot train
out people panicking and doing things with guns that can
never be taken back.
Speaker 1 (24:45):
Well.
Speaker 3 (24:46):
And one other aspect is like Hernandez starts firing his
gun very shortly after he's yelling shots fired. Like getting
that linear cause of events can be tricky because like
you are hearing gunfire at the same time you were
hearing him yell shots fired because he is shooting. And
Roberts said that she wasn't sure if she or her
Endaz even shot first. Like all of your memory in
these instances can get really kind of blurry, like like
(25:08):
all of these like high stress scenarios, it actually can
be hard to remember the exact manner of.
Speaker 2 (25:13):
Oh, yes, easily, yes, she.
Speaker 3 (25:16):
Said quote I'm seeing him on the ground yelling shots fired.
I'm hit. I'm hit. I thought I thought I saw
a deputy get murdered. I was close enough to see
his facial expression that was fear, anxiety. It was it
was horrible. I'm seeing him kind of trip fall, stumble
something behind the vehicle. At some point he's able to
kind of post up, but he was stumbling, crawling on
(25:37):
the ground. I don't know how to explain it. He
wasn't standing up straight, he was not in a tactical position.
Was he was off as momentum, he was off balance,
he was standing behind that car. It did not look
like he was in control of himself.
Speaker 2 (25:49):
Yeah, no, yeah, that's like what she is saying. I'm
not gonna say this is like a good response, but
it makes sense to me that she reacted the way
she did. Most people would write which is why most
people should not be given firearms and legal immunity to
do whatever with them, right, But most people would have
reacted in a why broadly similar manner without training, you know,
(26:10):
without training and experience.
Speaker 3 (26:11):
Now, there's one way that she describes his kind of
like weird stumbling on the ground quote. The auditory tone
in his voice was terror. The best way to describe
it was like watching a baby giraffe trying to walk
for the first time. I sat of the road.
Speaker 2 (26:29):
Oh that is that is going to echo in his
mind until the day he dies.
Speaker 3 (26:35):
So baby giraffe something learning to walk for the first time.
Do you know what else is learning to walk? I
don't know. That doesn't really work. Now. Do you know
what else could perceive acorns as a threat to business?
Speaker 2 (26:57):
Oh? Yeah, we I mean the one thing all of
our sponsors agree on is that acorns and all trees
should be eliminated in the interest of better profit margins.
So dangerous, kill the natural world, live free. I want
(27:20):
to know one other thing as I'm talking about, like
why they I'm not surprised they reacted this way, and
what it says to me about like how I think.
Like I think that a group of moderately competent civilians
with concealed firearms would have responded better than both officers
in this situation, large not for the reason that they're
(27:40):
more smarter or better trained, because they probably aren't, but
because they go through the world carrying a gun knowing
that if anything they do with that gun, they're legally
accountable for every shot fired they're accountable for, which is
a different mind state than what police are trained to do,
which is the instant you feel endangered, you should draw
(28:01):
and be prepared to shoot or shoot immediately, because nothing
matters more than you getting home, and you have qualified
immunity on your side, right.
Speaker 3 (28:09):
Yeah, which allows you to interpret a very quiet tapping
sound as a lethal threat to your life. Now. Sergeant
Roberts said that she did observe Hernandez move himself into
kind of a kneeling shooting stance on his left knee
with his right foot planted in front, but still quote,
it seemed like his motor functions were not operating properly
(28:29):
from what I saw. He told me, again, shots are fire.
He's completely out in the open. No one would think
that's a good place to take a knee to tactically fire.
Speaker 1 (28:36):
So he was.
Speaker 3 (28:37):
He was still tried to respond in some way, but
still very very baby draft coded.
Speaker 2 (28:41):
It seems yeah, yeah, I mean that seems like a
constant thing for this fella.
Speaker 3 (28:46):
So. Roberts also admitted that she did not ever see
the suspect. She could not see inside the patrol car,
and she couldn't hear anything coming from that area. Quote.
If there would have been something going on in that vehicle,
I don't know if I nescessarily would have heard it
was I hearing or seeing the windows be blasted?
Speaker 2 (29:03):
Out.
Speaker 3 (29:03):
No, I couldn't see the right side of the vehicle,
but based on the circumstances, I'm thinking that somehow he
shot Jesse from the back and it had struck him
some way, somehow. I don't know if the individual's gotten
out of the car and it's on the other side,
you know, like he's escaped somehow. I couldn't see if
the door was wide open. I don't know if he's
gotten out and they've had a little tussle. Is he's
shooting from the back of the car. All these things
are going through my head, but the main thing is
(29:25):
that he's in the back of the car. He's got
a gun and we missed it, and somehow he shot
Deputy Hernandez. So she also couldn't remember who shot first,
but she denied the notion that she started shooting because
she thought Hernandez fired his gun first. She was confident
in her her own use of gunfire before she could
(29:45):
tell that Jesse was firing.
Speaker 2 (29:47):
Yeah. Interesting quote.
Speaker 3 (29:50):
The threat was someone had shot him. We had an
arm suspect from the back of the vehicle. Jesse was shot.
I'm watching him, you know, fumble on the road. How
do I give him more time. How do I draw
the attention to me? How do I save him? I
thought I was watching him get murdered, the tone in
his voice, look on his face, the physical reactions. I'm thinking,
we missed the gun and this is it. How do
I get to Jesse to save him. She talks about
how she quote couldn't let him be shot again again,
(30:12):
as all this is like so confident that this has happened,
and they're so confident in their own use of force.
She was also concerned that if the suspect got away,
other people's lives could be in danger, like his girlfriend
who was nearby and the friend who was talking to
police about their domestic issue. Quote, there was a threat
in the back of the patrol car. I had a
deputy that was on the ground that was still a
(30:33):
threat to Jesse's life. I needed to provide him some
sort of cover or bring the attention to me. I'm
watching him die. I've got to do something. I've got
to do something. There's that just like overall constantly throughout
this interview with the Professional Standards Investigation, she's just constantly
saying how she thought that this man was gonna die.
That's why she responded the way she did. Like she
(30:54):
talks about how she can't render aid if there's still
a threat, she has to like get regain control the situation.
Speaker 2 (31:01):
All of those are reasonable things to say. Yeah, all
of those are reasonable things to say in a ReHO gunfight.
Speaker 3 (31:07):
Yes, it's just a little bit less less valid when
the ending incident is an acorn falling on a roof. Yes,
and you're shooting directly at a man.
Speaker 2 (31:19):
Who's your own car been searched two.
Speaker 3 (31:22):
Times and is trapped inside, who has handcuffs on. Like.
So Yeah, after both cops fired off this large valley
of bullets, they both repositioned behind cover, called in more backup,
and Roberts tended to manage the situation and the other
individuals in the area and eventually check in on Deputy Hernandez. Quote,
the threat was still a threat until we were able
(31:44):
to remove him from the car. Again, they're not viewing
him as a person, They're viewing him as a threat.
Like that is that is like he's no longer like
a human being. He is he is a threat. That
is what he represents now.
Speaker 2 (31:56):
Yeah, well, and that is that is how they're trained
to talk, and that is by the way like in
a court of law, how you should talk, right, you don't.
You would not say if you were involved in a
legal defensive shooting, I shot to kill, you would say
I shot to stop the threat. That is like how
people are trained, because that's what plays best in a court. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (32:14):
No, she all of her interview is very polished. She's
she's like very she's she's been a caught for fifteen years,
like she yeah, is she knows what she's saying here.
Speaker 2 (32:23):
Yes, she's been coached before. Yeah, she's she's aware.
Speaker 3 (32:26):
So after they were able to get to cover, she
called in more resources. Quote, that's when we were able
to treat it as more of a barricaded armed suspect situation.
This poor dude, Yeah, like what do you do? Like
you're hanging in the back of the car like everywhere.
Speaker 2 (32:41):
Like like it seems like this guy is guilty of
having a little bit of having an emotional breakdown with
his partner and doing things he should not have done,
none of which the penalty for is getting shot at
while strapped into a car.
Speaker 3 (32:54):
Yeah, he stole his girlfriend's car, He sent her threatening messages.
He was described as being a massive in the past yeah, yeah,
there's bad things, but that doesn't mean you can get
executed by police because they hurt an a chord like.
Speaker 2 (33:06):
No, that is not that is not what our society
has deemed the punishment for those options, for those behaviors
should be.
Speaker 3 (33:13):
So Roberts closed this interview by saying, quote, I don't
think there's anything funny about it. It just went from
zero to one hundred within the drop of a hat.
I know we talk about it all the time, but
when it does, it does. And she's talking about how,
like how fast the situation escalates, like from a very
standard interaction towards you're now multiple people are shooting, like
(33:34):
this is it happens so quickly. It went from zero
to one hundred within the drop of a hat.
Speaker 2 (33:39):
Yeah, that's that is what happens with shootings.
Speaker 3 (33:42):
She knew that Hernandez was prior military and when in
training Hernandez was training on her shift, she described him
as quote a very squared away person, somebody that if
they tell you something, you don't question it. I wanted
Jesse on my shift. When I observed him in high
stressful situations, he reacted appropriately, He wasn't afraid to respond
(34:03):
and he's I think that last part is certainly true.
He was not afraid to respond well.
Speaker 2 (34:07):
And this is why, again, when the response for a
lot of people when I would talk about this to
them is suspecting it had something to do with his
military training that he responded this way. Soldiers aren't trained
this way. Again, this is so content in the field.
But soldiers are generally trained to not air on the
side of opening fire blindly because war crimes are a
(34:29):
thing they're concerned about and they have a sense of
professional pride against Again, not to say that they do
not kill innocent people. They do all the time, because
that's what war is. But this is not the way.
So this is police training. This guy's bias towards reacting
this way is the result of police training, not special
forces training.
Speaker 3 (34:47):
She kind of reaffirmed her trust in Hernandez as a
person who was like reliable, saying when they were on
night shift during training, quote, he acted appropriately, He did
not lose control of his emotions. I have a lot
of respect for him. Actually, when he tells you something,
it's not something like are you sure you know he
tell you something and that's what's happening, or that's what happened.
I don't think there's anything malicious about what he did.
(35:08):
I'm not mad at him. I'm not upset about it
because I truly believe that he thought that's what was happening, unquote,
which is again, it.
Speaker 2 (35:15):
Just i'd be pissed you almost, Like.
Speaker 3 (35:19):
I don't if if I was tricked into almost killing someone,
I don't. I don't understand this reaction.
Speaker 2 (35:25):
Like it's it's this thin blue line shit, right.
Speaker 3 (35:28):
Yeah, like like they have to group together so so hard.
Speaker 2 (35:32):
Yeah, it's it's and it's like this guy got you
into a situation where you could have shot a child,
Like I would never forgive someone who put me in
that position for no good reason, right, Like it's why
that's such such an insane response to me, Sopran.
Speaker 3 (35:52):
She has to keep affirming that he has like a
good judgment, and it's it's so bizarre, like he very
clearly doesn't. Dude, you'll watch the video. Oh, it'd be.
Speaker 2 (36:01):
One thing if like they were under fire and he
shot and his bullet went wide and hit a civilian
and it's no, that's like absolutely just a horrible accident.
But like his judgment wasn't bad. It was just a
terrible situation. This is so different, and that she's still
going to bat for him. Says everything about cop cops,
cop brain.
Speaker 3 (36:19):
Yeah, there's a few lines that I want to read
before we close out here that are in the conclusion
of the of the report.
Speaker 2 (36:27):
Can't wait.
Speaker 3 (36:28):
They describe Hernandez's legs as quote, stopped working correctly. But
I think it's just a really funny way to phrase it.
Speaker 2 (36:35):
I would describe his brain that way.
Speaker 3 (36:37):
But yeah, his legs weren't responding as he intended. But
there was no evidence to support anything impacted Deputy Hernandez.
No defects are found on his uniform or his blistering
vest to support the impact. Hernandez's response was not objectively reasonable,
so they they ruled that hernandez His response was not
objectively reasonable, that it was not appropriate.
Speaker 2 (36:57):
Positively surprised about that, but.
Speaker 3 (37:00):
Found Sergeant Roberts response as being reasonable because she believed
Hernandez has been shot because of his tone of voice,
his stumbling, attempts to move and stand up, and as
a parent quote lack of control over his body.
Speaker 2 (37:12):
Yeah, I would not call it. I wouldn't say her
response is reasonable. I would say her response is what
I would expect most people to do.
Speaker 3 (37:19):
No, or it is reasonable in terms of how police
procedure operates, like she followed the correct protocols for interacting
as a police officer.
Speaker 2 (37:28):
Yeah. I don't believe under the law she's she would
have been found liable by any court.
Speaker 3 (37:33):
No, they said. Quote. Roberts found out Hernandez to be
a reliable depity that she could trust. She had no
reason to doubt what Hernandez had been telling her. She
described the auditory tone of Hernandez's voice as terror, the
look on his face as being quote consistent with being
in fear. I love that kind of cop speak, consistent
with being in fear.
Speaker 2 (37:53):
Yeah, he looked scared. Yeah amazing. Oh, I do want
to go over one thing before we come out, because
this is again something I've been asked by people, and
you know, maybe this is actionable. If you ever found
yourself handcuffed in the back of a police car and
they start shooting at you, you should know how this
guy survived. Because reading the interview with him, he was like,
as soon as I realized they were shooting at me,
(38:13):
I like flung myself down sideways and laid flat. I
think in front of the seat. He might have been
on the seat. I would get in front of the
seat if you can. But the reason he survived is
that handguns. Number one, police carry hollow points in their handguns,
which is a bullet that has a hole in the
(38:33):
slug the thing that goes into somebody. And the reason
why you make a hollow point is that a hollow
point expands immediately upon impact, so it doesn't penetrate as well.
It will not go through armor, and it will not
go through objects very well. But when it hits meat,
it expands and so instead of going through a body,
(38:55):
it stops and it imparts all of the force from
the bullet into that body, so it is better at
stopping people. But what that means is when someone is
shooting at something like a car and shooting into the
back of a car, and you have that whole reinforced
trunk and backseat of a police car to go through,
those nine millimeters rounds are unlikely to penetrate very far.
So if you are laying down in front of the
(39:16):
seat or flat on the seat, your odds of not
getting hit are pretty good. Like he had. I'm not
surprised he survived. Having done what he did. You know,
if you're sitting up and you've got body parts that
are like in view with of the windows, you're very
likely to get hit. But because he did what he did,
he essentially saved his own life, is what it's my
(39:38):
interpretation of what I've read.
Speaker 3 (39:40):
Yeah, no, I mean it's it is a terrifying scenario
that there was. There was an instant recently of this
officer who made his first ever arrest. He had two
suspects locked in the back and he got distracted about driving.
He drove his car off the road into a lake,
and both of the suspects drowned.
Speaker 2 (40:00):
Jesus fucking Christ, Like.
Speaker 3 (40:01):
This is this is like all these things point towards
just inherent problems with the policing system.
Speaker 2 (40:07):
Cops bad avoid at all costs.
Speaker 3 (40:09):
It's terrifying, Like it's it is like these people can
just act like this can kidnap, people can do all
these things and face basically no repercussions at least turn
end as is no longer a cop, which is good,
but like that doesn't fix any of the underlying problems
with training that cause people to react like this in
the face of a squirrel armed with an acorn being
(40:30):
the most dangerous thing that you can encounter.
Speaker 2 (40:33):
Yeah, it's very bad police work. Avoid cops.
Speaker 3 (40:38):
Yeah, yeah, pretty much, pretty much. So, Yeah, that is
that is what we have to say on the acorn
involved shooting.
Speaker 2 (40:45):
Yeah, great stuff.
Speaker 3 (40:47):
Watch out for acorns, watch out for droops. Also dangerous.
They can fall off a tree.
Speaker 2 (40:51):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (40:52):
Pine cones can sometimes be lethal.
Speaker 2 (40:54):
Oh they call those the widow makers.
Speaker 3 (40:57):
Eyes on the sky folks. You never know, all right
that Bye?
Speaker 1 (41:02):
Hey, It could Happen here as a production of cool
Zone Media. For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit
our website coolzonemedia dot com or check us out on
the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.
You can find sources for It could Happen Here, updated
monthly at coolzonemedia dot com slash sources. Thanks for listening.
It Could Happen Here News
Host
Robert Evans
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