January 29, 2019 • 33 mins
After an impromptu TV appearance, the Zodiac fights to stay in the limelight
Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.com
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are solely
those of the podcast author or individuals participating in the podcast,
and do not necessarily represent those of iHeartMedia, How Stuff Works,
or its employees.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
Zodiac a symbol that now stands for terror in San Francisco. Today,
there was a possibly significant development in the terrifying case
of the man who calls himself Zodiac and has boasted
that he is responsible for five murders in the last
nine months. In Zodiac's latest letter last week, he threatened
to make a busload of school children his next victims.
(00:38):
Since then, school buses have been discreetly guarded and parents'
fears have openly risen. This morning, the people of San Francisco,
during a television conversation program with attorney Melvin bell I,
heard a man who claimed to be Zodiac talking on
the air.
Speaker 3 (00:59):
A man asked, robbed, tied, and stabbed them, leaving them
for dad. Subjects stated, I want to report a murder,
no a double murder.
Speaker 4 (01:09):
I did it a man who.
Speaker 5 (01:12):
Wore a medieval style executioner's hood, carried a knife and
gun and intended to use them.
Speaker 3 (01:19):
They haven't arrested me because they can't prove a thing.
Speaker 4 (01:22):
I'm not the damn Zodiac.
Speaker 6 (01:24):
Who is the Zodiac and where is he from?
Speaker 5 (01:27):
iHeartRadio, Houstuff Works and Tenderfoot TV. This is monster the
Zodiac Killer. Fear spread across northern California as the Zodiac's
pace accelerated. He continued to send letters to newspapers and
to prove authenticity, he included squares of bloody clothing from
(01:47):
the cab driver's shirt. But apparently letters weren't enough. The
killer craved more attention. In October nineteen sixty nine, Californians
gathered around their television in anticipation of the Zodiac's on
air debut. They were desperate to finally hear the voice
of unspeakable evil.
Speaker 7 (02:15):
That was the voice of a man who called himself
the Zodiac Killer. He's talking to attorney Melvin Belli by
phone on a television conversation show. This bizarre situation began
at two o'clock this morning when the so called Zodiac
telephone police headquarters. He said he was sick, he needed help,
and he wanted to talk to Attorney Melvin bell I
on television.
Speaker 1 (02:36):
The Oakland Police Department contacted Belli that night. Bell I
was a well known celebrity lawyer whose clients included the
Rolling Stones in Muhammad Ali. With only hours notice, bell
I came on the Jim Dunbar Show to speak with
the Zodiac live on TV.
Speaker 7 (02:52):
All the scheduled guests were canceled. Bell I waited for
Zodiac to call on the private line. The phone was
not tapped. The telephone twelve times. He spoke very little
with Attorney Belly trying to draw him out that maybe
he's afraid of being beaten up or something like that.
Speaker 8 (03:07):
Now, why don't we just ask Sam to tell us
a little bit more about what he's feeling right now?
Tell us about your feeling, Sam, you know, just tell
us anything you want to.
Speaker 9 (03:16):
And then we'll come back and I'll give you a specific.
Speaker 7 (03:18):
Answer to this question. And are going to the gas chamber.
Talk to us.
Speaker 4 (03:22):
Just tell us what's going on inside of you right now?
Speaker 10 (03:24):
Sam?
Speaker 9 (03:25):
Please, I have a headache.
Speaker 11 (03:28):
How long do you had those headaches?
Speaker 9 (03:30):
Sam?
Speaker 7 (03:32):
In a long time?
Speaker 6 (03:34):
I killed a kid. If it all balls down to
the question that you're giving yourself up, if you could
be assured that you wouldn't.
Speaker 7 (03:42):
Get count for the punishment for myself, I want to
kill a kid. Bell I finally arranged to meet Zodiac
in Daily City, a suburb south of San Francisco, to
talk in person. So inside the thrift shop Saint Vincent
(04:05):
de Paul Tourney, Melvin Belli and the San Francisco police
waited for the Zodiac killer.
Speaker 8 (04:18):
We were told to he would lead us at the
Saint Vincent de Paul Society locks in on Mission Street
in Daily City. We waited about, I guess over an
hour and no evidence that he was there. So, yeah,
is there anything more to this afternoon that leads you
to believe that the man who called indeed might have
been the legitimate Zodiac killer? Well again, you know my
(04:42):
opinion on a dime will buy you have a couple
of coffee. I don't really know. The only thing I
can conclude, as I'm sure anyone listening might have concluded,
is it's sounded like a fellow who does have a
pretty serious problem and is pretty seriously disturbed. Whether it's Zodiac,
I don't know.
Speaker 7 (05:08):
The man did not show, So now all we can
do is wait, perhaps for that next phone call from
the man who calls himself Zodiac, who has killed five
says he's going to kill again, Dickchmaker, ABC News, San Francisco.
Speaker 2 (05:20):
We'll be back with more news.
Speaker 1 (05:22):
In a moment, police brought in the witnesses who had
heard the Zodiac speak, Brian Hartnell, the survivor from the
Lake Barriesa stabbing, and two phone operators who had heard
the Zodiacs calls. No one knew whether it was the
real Zodiac. The Zodiac had now killed five people, and
his attacks seemed to be accelerating. Half a year separated
(05:46):
the first two shootings. Then only three months later was
the Lake Barriessa attack, and then just two weeks after that,
the Zodiac shot cab driver Paul Stein in San Francisco.
The La Times reported that the threat of his next
crime galvanized one of the most massive manhunts and one
of the greatest waves of public alarm in San Francisco history.
(06:09):
The manhunt extended as far as Atascadero, four hours south
of San Francisco. There, police checked up on three hundred
ex inmates of a hospital for the criminally insane, But
despite this intensive search, the case went cold until two
months later when Melvin Belli, the famous attorney you heard earlier,
(06:31):
received a strange letter The Zodiac had sent a letter
directly to Belli's home with a piece of the cab
driver's bloody shirt to prove its authenticity.
Speaker 9 (06:41):
Dear Melboyn, this is the Zodiac speaking. I wish you
a happy Christmas. The one thing I ask of you
is this, Please help me. I cannot reach out for
help because of this thing in need.
Speaker 4 (06:53):
Won't let me.
Speaker 9 (06:55):
I am finding it extremely difficult to hold it in check.
I'm afraid I will lose control again and take my
ninth and possibly tenth victim.
Speaker 4 (07:03):
Please help me. I am drowning at the moment.
Speaker 9 (07:08):
The children are safe from the bomb because it is
so massive to dig in and the trigger mech requires
much work to get it adjusted just right. But if
I hold back too long from number nine, I will
lose complete all control of myself and set the bomb up.
Speaker 4 (07:23):
Please help me.
Speaker 9 (07:24):
I cannot remain in control for much longer, Signed Zodiac.
Speaker 1 (07:33):
It seemed like maybe the Zodiac really was reaching out
to the lawyer to get help, but the letter also
had his usual threats. He mentioned the bus bombs and
was now claiming eight victims. The Zodiac had included specific
details about his first five murders in his letters, but
then he said he would start to disguise his killings,
(07:53):
making them look like routine robberies, killings of anger, or accidents.
Because of this, police were unsure which recent.
Speaker 4 (08:00):
Murders might be the Zodiacs.
Speaker 1 (08:04):
After attorney Melvin bell I received the Zodiac's letter, he
published a response in the San Francisco Chronicle. He said
he was willing to meet the killer any time, any place.
Bell I said, if you want to meet with me alone,
I will come alone. He continued, I believe he wants
to stop killing. He knows eventually he will get apprehended,
(08:24):
and that unless he gets proper legal representation, he will
most probably be sentenced to die in the gas chamber.
Bell I was next contacted by telephone. While bell I
was out, a man claiming to be the Zodiac called
and asked to speak with him. Bell I alerted the
FBI and the San Francisco Police Department. They tapped his
(08:47):
phone so they could trace future calls, and again they waited,
hoping the Zodiac would call back. Eventually, another call came.
Police managed to trace the call and detect stives. Tosky
and Armstrong drove out to arrest the Zodiac. They arrived
at a mental hospital. The caller had been a patient,
(09:10):
a man named Eric wil He was a hippie and
an amateur photographer. The detectives determined that while was the
caller to the Jim Dunbar show, but ultimately they also
ruled him out as a suspect. The voice on the
television call in show was not the Zodiac. Reporters accounts
(09:34):
about Eric Wylde differ. Some say he was at a
mental hospital in Oakland, others say it was in Napa,
north of Valeo, and it's unclear exactly how the detectives
ruled out Eric Wyle as a suspect. But serial killer
expert Eric Hakey told us that while there's obviously something
wrong with them, it's rare for serial killers to be mentally.
Speaker 10 (09:57):
Ill killers definitely, but they don't have mental illness. When
you talk about mental illness, we're talking about people who
they hear voices, they hallucinate, their schizophrenic, they're psychotic. That's
mental illness. We treat people for that, we get them
medications for it. But then there's another group of people
who have mental disorder, like serial killers. Now some percent
(10:20):
of them are Claire thinking, but they're they're narcissistic, they're
they're antisocial, and they have those kinds of issues going
on with them, but they know right from wrong. In
a court of law, they would not be found to
be insane. People get confused. I think, well, look at
Jeffrey Dahmer. If you killed seventeen people and eighthan for dinner,
(10:41):
you must be insane. Well, the behavior is insane. A
Dahmer was never mentally ill. He knew right from wrong.
He even admitted he always knew it was wrong to
do what he was doing. Now, yet there are other
people who are truly mentally ill when they do these
types of things. So that always has to be figured out.
And you're looking at a crime scene, is this someone
(11:01):
who's mentally ill or is this someone who's psychopathic. In
my field, we examine psychopathology. What level of psychopathology would
the Zodiact be? At one scale that's used or studies
psychopathology goes from zero to forty points. Most people are
going to be between a four and eight on the scale,
and then the occasional criminal that does things once in
(11:22):
a while they're going to rate in the low teens.
But then you get people who are kind of antisocial.
Most people in prisons today are what we call sociopaths.
You know, they probably rate eighteen to twenty nine on
that scale. They're impulsive, they don't learn from their mistakes,
they have high recidivism rates and so on. They are
anti social, but they still love their moms, they still
(11:44):
have emotional attachments to people, whereas a true psychopath, they're
thirty and above. And these people do not have emotional
attachments to people. They don't have empathy, they don't have
a conscience. There aren't that many of them out there,
and a lot of psychopaths. True psychopaths never get caught
because what differentiates them from sociopaths is that they have
(12:05):
a skill set that's incredible. They can manipulate and lie
and charm people, and they're so good at their social
skills that people just don't believe that they could be
doing anything wrong. And that's a smaller group called those psychopaths.
One of the mist about serial murder is that you
know they're all psychopaths. Well, this is not true. Only
(12:25):
twenty five thirty percent were found to be true psychopaths.
Speaker 1 (12:29):
Doctor Hickey says the Zodiac is likely a true psychopath.
You're the top of that forty point scale because of
his self obsession and craving for fame.
Speaker 10 (12:39):
Narcissism is one of the traits we see in true psychopaths.
They are quite narcissistic and thus they want to be
recognized for what they've done. So it is not surprising
that the Zodiac killer that it's all about him because
he's smarter than the police, he's smarter than his victims.
He'll never get caught. That's kind of thinking that he's
better than everybody else, And the fact that he did
(12:59):
get him with it for this long shows that he
was right.
Speaker 1 (13:20):
The whole TV call in saga and then subsequent contact
with Melvin Belly was puzzling. Investigators determined the caller to
both the TV show and to Belly's house was mental
patient Eric Wyle, and that Wyle couldn't be the Zodiac,
but the actual Zodiac had written to Belly and he
included a piece of Paulstein's shirt as proof. What was
(13:44):
going on was the Zodiac's letter a real cry for help.
Had the Zodiac set up the TV call in but
then Eric Wyle interrupted it, or had Wyle set up
the call in, and then the Zodiac wrote to Belly
to try and stir up more media attention. The timing
of this letter to Belli was interesting. It was mailed
(14:06):
the day after another California killer's face was plastered on
the cover of Life.
Speaker 6 (14:11):
Magazine, December nineteenth, nineteen sixty nine. Life Magazine the strange
story of Charlie Manson and his brood of New Bile
flower children charged with murder life in a sex and
drug devoted communal family that lived on the far edge
of society under the absolute, almost mystical domination of Charles Manson.
(14:32):
Manson gave the orders and the family carried them out.
Charlie Manson so disturbed the American millions last week when
he was charged with sending four dociled girls and a
hairy male acolyte off to slaughter strangers in two Los
Angeles houses last August. What failure of the human condition
could produce a Charles Manson? What possible aspects of such
(14:56):
a creature's example could induce sweet faced young women to
acts of such numbing cruelty.
Speaker 1 (15:03):
The Manson story was a media sensation the next day
when the Zodiac sent his letter to Melvin BELLI was
he trying to regain the attention he seemed to so
desperately crave. The Manson trial and its press coverage stretched
on for months, and America was repeatedly shocked by new
revelations about the Manson family, but the Zodiac wasn't willing
(15:27):
to give up his place on the front page. If
you pay attention to when the Zodiac sent his letters,
it seems as if for every article published about Manson,
the Zodiac responded within days with a new letter, taunting
police with an ever increasing kill count and demanding the
press give him the coverage he felt he deserved.
Speaker 6 (15:49):
April nineteenth, nineteen seventy. San Francisco Examiner cult chief's pal
guilty and.
Speaker 4 (15:55):
Killing April twentieth, nineteen seventy. This is the Zodiac speaking.
Speaker 6 (16:00):
Busile A twenty two testify it was Manson who killed Hinman.
The baby face defendant said, Manson, leader of a nomadic
hippie style clan, sought twenty thousand dollars from Hinman. Charles
pulled a sword from behind his leg and stabbed busil At, said, I.
Speaker 9 (16:16):
Hope you do not think that I was the one
who wiped out that blue Mini with a bomb of
the cop station. Even though I talked about killing school
children with one, it just wouldn't do to move in
on someone else's territory. I've killed ten people to date.
Speaker 6 (16:28):
April twenty first, nineteen seventy. Gas chamber for a musician.
Speaker 9 (16:32):
Slayer April twenty eighth, nineteen seventy. I hope you enjoy
yourselves when I have my blast.
Speaker 6 (16:38):
Boussolet maintained it was Manson who killed Hinman.
Speaker 9 (16:41):
If you don't want me to have this blast, you
must do two things. One tell everyone about the bus
bomb with all the details. Two, I would like to
see some nice Zodiac buttons wandering around town. Everyone else
has these buttons like peace, black power, Melvin EAT's blubber
cheer me up considerably. If I saw a lot of
(17:01):
people wearing my button, please know nasty ones like Melvin's.
Speaker 6 (17:06):
June twelfth, nineteen seventy. Manson battles with bailiffs. Charles Manson
fought with three bailiffs trying to force him into his seat,
then was led shouting out of court along with three others,
charged with murdered conspiracy and the slayings of actress Sharon
Tate and six others. The women sat down, then jumped
up again. Miss Krinwinkle raised her arms and addressed newsmen
(17:26):
seated in the jury section. We gave our lives once before.
Don't you know who we are? You put us on
the cross once before. Why don't you do it again?
Speaker 9 (17:38):
June twenty sixth, nineteen seventy. This is the Zodiac speaking.
I have become very upset with the people of San
fran Bay area. They have not complied with my wishes
for them to wear some nice Zodiac buttons. I promised
to punish them if they did not comply by annihilating
a full school bus, but now school is out for
the summer, so I punished them in an I shot
(18:01):
a man sitting in a parked car with a thirty
eight Zodiac twelve.
Speaker 4 (18:06):
San Francisco Police Department zero.
Speaker 6 (18:10):
July twenty fourth, nineteen seven. State tells bizarre Tate killing's motive.
Charles Manson hoped to touch off a Negro white blood
bath in the United States by making it appear that
blacks had committed the Tate LaBianca murders. Manson, thirty five,
appeared in court with a red cross slashed on his forehead,
framed by his dangling hair. Manson did it with two
(18:30):
slashes of a razor blade. Manson has in the past
called himself Christ and Jesus.
Speaker 9 (18:37):
July twenty fourth, nineteen seventy. I am rather unhappy because
you people will not wear some nice Zodiac buttons. So
I now have a little list, starting with a woman
and her baby that I gave a rather interesting ride
for a couple hours one evening a few months back.
Speaker 6 (18:52):
July twenty fifth, nineteen seventy, Manson wanted race war with
a Beatles song spinning in his mind, Charles Manson and
ordered the murders of actress Sharon Tate and six others
in hopes of igniting a black white war. To Manson,
Helter Skelter, one of the Beatles' songs, meant the black
man rising up against the white establishment and murdering the
(19:14):
entire white race. Manson believed the race war would wipe
out all whites except Manson and his clan, who intended
to escape by going to the desert. Helter Skelter was
scrawled in blood on a wall at the home of
two of the victims. The scrawlings and other evidence were
aimed at making it look like black people had murdered
the five tape victims.
Speaker 4 (19:36):
July twenty sixth, nineteen seventy.
Speaker 9 (19:39):
Being that you will not wear some nice Zodiac buttons,
how about wearing some nasty Zodiac buttons. If you do
not wear any buttons, I shall, on top of everything else,
torture all thirteen of my slaves that I have waiting
for me in paradise. Some I shall tie over an
hills and watch them scream and twitch and squirm. Others
shall be placed in cages and feds salt beef until
(20:00):
they are gorged. And then I shall listen to their
pleas for water, and I shall laugh at them. Others
will hang by their thumbs and burn in the sun.
Then I will rub them down with deep heat to
warm them up. And all billiard players, I shall have
them play in a dark and dungeon cell with crooked
cues and twisted shoes. Yes, I shall have great fun
(20:21):
inflicting the most delicious of pain to my slaves. San
Francisco Police Department, zero Zodiac.
Speaker 6 (20:28):
Thirteen October twenty seventh, nineteen seven. Witness describes Manson's visions
of racial warfare. Manson had compounded a theory of eminent
racial strife from the Bible and the Beatles. After the killings,
whites were to go into the black ghetto and kill
then the blacks would wipe out the white survivors. But
after the blacks had won, they would not like the
(20:50):
responsibility of governing and would call Manson and his followers
from the desert. Houston said he was under the influence
of LSD in June sixty nine when he met Manson
in the Sunset Boulevard home of a member of the
Beach Boys rock group. He asked me if I could
make love in front of twenty five people, said Postin
He said he thought Manson was Jesus Christ.
Speaker 9 (21:14):
October twenty seventh, nineteen seventy Paradise Slaves by fire, by gun,
by knife, by rope peek a boo, you are doomed
fourteen boo signed Z.
Speaker 1 (21:33):
Melvin Bellie wasn't the only one to receive a personal
message from the Zodiac. That last correspondence you heard from
the Zodiac was actually a Halloween card, a black card
with a dancing skeleton. The writer had used white out
to draw cryptic symbols and thirteen peering eyes. He sent
it to Paul Avery, a reporter at the San Francisco
(21:55):
Chronicle who'd been covering the Zodiac. Duffy Jennings remembers when
Avery received the card.
Speaker 12 (22:01):
During the course of my a couple of years as
a copy boy, I got to know all the reporters
pretty well, and that included Paul Avery. He'd been a
war correspondent in Vietnam and he loved to do crime stuff.
He kind of took a shine to me and we
became sort of friends. He was a few years older
around nineteen seventy. As I started to work as a
(22:23):
reporter and we became closer friends. I'd go with him
out following the leads about certain suspects or types of
evidence that would come in. Only one Zodiac letter was
actually personal to Paul Avery. It was a Halloween card
he sent and had kind of a creepy message to it, peekaboo,
(22:45):
You're doomed, I think it said.
Speaker 3 (22:47):
The two homicide inspectors who were working with the Zodiac
case came in and tapped me on the shoulder and
pulled me outside and said we received another letter from
the Zodiac, and it was a to you. It was
a Halloween card interpreted as being a threat to me.
At that point, he had been claiming thirteen victims. This
(23:09):
one mentioned fourteen, and the presumption was that either he
had killed fourteen people at that point and maybe I
was number fifteen, or maybe I was supposed to be
number fourteen.
Speaker 12 (23:20):
At that time in the seventies, reporters didn't get killed
in the line of duty. I think maybe in that
whole decade there might have been, up to that point,
one reporter, a guy named Don Bowles at the Phoenix,
who had his car blown up by some organized crime
figures he'd been writing about. But otherwise, reporters it wasn't
an unsafe job. As we talked, there's an assault on
(23:43):
the media going on, and there's a lot of fear
of what people might do. But at that time in
the seventies, you never thought about your own safety. So
when Avery was threatened, somebody in our newsroom engaged in
a bit of sort of Maudlin newsroom humor, which you
know we are one to do, and they had these
buttons made up, big white buttons like campaign buttons, and
(24:05):
it said, in big black block letters, I am not Avery.
We all got one and wore them when we had
a great laugh about it, and Herb Caine, who was
the big gossip columnist, wrote an item about it, and
then TV stations sent crews over to do stories about
the buttons, and then it became national news that all
the people there chronicle were wearing these I'm not Avery buttons.
(24:29):
Avery himself wore a button and I said, are you
concerned about this at all? He goes nah, He said,
I'm not worried about it, but I have to tell
you that in addition to wearing a button, Paul started
to wear a holster. He got a handgun permit from
the police chief.
Speaker 3 (24:45):
I think the Zodiac is just making an idle threat, frankly,
but at the same time, I'm no fool. I'm going
to be very careful. There was a conference with the
police department, a discussion of possible police protection for me.
He was finally decided that this, you know, at this
time at least is un warranted. Somebody takes a shot
(25:06):
at me, that'll be a different case. But at this
point is we don't feel any need for protection.
Speaker 12 (25:12):
And I have to tell you that whenever I went
out of the building with Paul. I had to kind
of look around. You didn't think Zodiac was the kind
of guy who was going to target someone in particular,
But what if he did, and what if he missed?
What if you were with the guy? All this goes
through your head.
Speaker 3 (25:28):
He is bragged of killing up to possibly fourteen people,
but there's absolutely no evidence that he's killed more than five.
I put no credence in this. I think he just
wanted to get himself a little publicity. Well the killings
that have gone on in this area in recent weeks
that have created a very big headlines. Possibly he's a
little miffed he's not the center of attention anymore.
Speaker 1 (26:00):
The Zodiac had been continuously bragging about new murders in
the eleven letters and cards he sent in just over
a year, but he'd stopped supplying any evidence. Had he
made good on his threat to disguise his murders as
routine killings, or had he stopped killing altogether and the
letters were just for attention. We spoke to criminal psychologist
(26:23):
James Fox about whether serial killers ever do just stop killing.
Speaker 11 (26:29):
I started studying multiple homicide, including serial murder, back in
the early nineteen eighties. Back then people essentially believed that
repeat killers were glassy at lunatics, and we found actually
that they were extraordinarily ordinary, and that was why they're
so dangerous. If they looked and acted like the serial
killers in the movies Jason or Freddy Krueger, we'd avoid
(26:52):
them like the plague. But the fact that they blend
in so well and have an outward appearance of being
a nice guy makes them extramely dangerous. Many of them
were quintessential sociopaths. They cared only for their own pleasures,
no matter who they hurt in the process. And they
also had a satiable need for power and control and dominance,
(27:13):
and oftentimes satisfied those nees through rape and torture and mayhem.
But one thing that's fairly clear is that lots of
people have this excessive need for power and control and dominance,
but they're able to satisfy it in socially legitimate ways.
(27:34):
They may be a corporate executive who hires and fires
and enjoys the idea of hurting other people through these firings,
or they may be a college professor who enjoys funking
a student and seeing them squirm. But the thing about
serial killers is they don't have that ability. They don't
have an outlet to satisfy their needs for power and dominance.
(27:55):
To give it a good example, Dennis Raider, the BTK killer,
always wanted to be I'm a police officer, but wasn't
able to make it onto the force. He started killing victims.
But after many years, when he got a position as
a compliance officer in his neighborhood and he could give
people citations if their grass was too long, gave him
(28:16):
the authority that he always wanted to have, and then
he stopped killing. He stopped killing because he had another
way to satisfy that power he wanted over other people.
Speaker 1 (28:31):
Were The Zodiac's letters. His outlet did manipulating the police
and the media quench his desire for power and control.
Here's Zodiac expert Michael Butterfield.
Speaker 13 (28:43):
The Zodiac went from being a nameless killer on a
road at night, to being a bizarre killer wearing a
costume during daylight, to killing a cab driver in a
populated area, to threatening school children, and then becoming a
modern terrorist. After his last known murder cab driver Paul Stein.
(29:04):
The Zodiac wrote a lot of letters but didn't appear
to engage in any further attacks. There was never any
bomb found along any roadsides. There's never any attempts to
bomb any school buses or anything. But he sure created
weeks and months of terror in the Bay Area that
(29:27):
is remembered to this day. And I think that was
part of his goal. These bombs served the purpose of
removing him from the equation. He doesn't have to be
there anymore. He knew that all he would have to
do is draw a little bomb and mail it to
a newspaper, and it would not only create instant terror,
but it would be covered all over the place. Even
(29:49):
though the Zodiac probably had stopped killing and was sitting
at home just watching TV and reading the newspaper, do
you still feel scared of it? Has no resolution, no end,
because you still think he's out there. He became someone
who could be around any corner and in any shadow
at any time. But the Zodiac was also sort of
(30:12):
drowned out at times by other major crime stories. A
lot of people were paying more attention to things like
the Manson trial and all the chaos and insanity of that.
And then as the sixties came to an end in
the seventies came around. That was the age of the
serial killer, and I think the Zodiac was sort of
(30:34):
overshadowed by all of this, and perhaps he sensed that
in some way that time had moved on, that America
had become even more violent than he was and moved
to another level, and maybe that's why he in a
sense stepped away from it. But then in March of
(30:56):
nineteen seventy, a young woman claimed that she had been
driving along a freeway and a vehicle pulled.
Speaker 4 (31:02):
Up alongside her.
Speaker 13 (31:04):
The man inside gestured towards her vehicle as if there
was something wrong, so she pulled over. The man pulled
over and said, hey, your tires loose. That gave him
a perfect opportunity to pretend to be the good Samaritan
and offer her a.
Speaker 5 (31:22):
Ride next time on Monster the Zodiac killer.
Speaker 13 (31:34):
Investigators at Riverside were watching and saying, this looks kind
of familiar, and maybe these crimes are connected.
Speaker 9 (31:43):
A young, inexperienced Zodiac murdered Edwards and Domingos more than
five years before his reign of terror in San Francisco.
Speaker 3 (31:52):
It said, Bates had to die. There will be more
right at the bottom, is z.
Speaker 8 (32:00):
In his monotone, no killing, no looking at me, Ryan
or on.
Speaker 3 (32:03):
He said to you that he was going to kill you.
Speaker 2 (32:05):
You're gonna die.
Speaker 9 (32:06):
You know I'm gonna kill you and throw that maybe out.
Speaker 5 (32:22):
Monster the Zodiac Killer is a fifteen episode podcast produced
by iHeartRadio, hou Stuff Works and Tenderfoot TV. Donald Alright
and I are executive producers on behalf of Tenderfoot TV,
alongside producers Meredith Stebman, Mason Lindsay, and Christina Dana. Jason
Hope is executive producer on behalf of How Stuff Works,
(32:42):
along with producers Trevor Young, Miranda Hawkins, ben Keebrick, and
Josh Thain. Scott Benjamin provides additional voice talent. Matt Frederick
is our host. Original music is by Makeup and Vanity Set.
If you haven't already, make sure to check out the
first season of Monster called Atlanta Monster, about the Atlanta
child murders from the late seventies to the early eighties.
(33:05):
Download the ten episode season right now. Have questions or
comments email us at Monster at houstuffworks dot com, or
you can call us at one eight three, three, two
eight five six six sixty seven.
Speaker 12 (33:19):
Thanks for listening.
The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are solely
those of the podcast author or individuals participating in the podcast,
and do not necessarily represent those of iHeartMedia, How Stuff Works,
or its employees.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
Zodiac a symbol that now stands for terror in San Francisco. Today,
there was a possibly significant development in the terrifying case
of the man who calls himself Zodiac and has boasted
that he is responsible for five murders in the last
nine months. In Zodiac's latest letter last week, he threatened
to make a busload of school children his next victims.
(00:38):
Since then, school buses have been discreetly guarded and parents'
fears have openly risen. This morning, the people of San Francisco,
during a television conversation program with attorney Melvin bell I,
heard a man who claimed to be Zodiac talking on
the air.
Speaker 3 (00:59):
A man asked, robbed, tied, and stabbed them, leaving them
for dad. Subjects stated, I want to report a murder,
no a double murder.
Speaker 4 (01:09):
I did it a man who.
Speaker 5 (01:12):
Wore a medieval style executioner's hood, carried a knife and
gun and intended to use them.
Speaker 3 (01:19):
They haven't arrested me because they can't prove a thing.
Speaker 4 (01:22):
I'm not the damn Zodiac.
Speaker 6 (01:24):
Who is the Zodiac and where is he from?
Speaker 5 (01:27):
iHeartRadio, Houstuff Works and Tenderfoot TV. This is monster the
Zodiac Killer. Fear spread across northern California as the Zodiac's
pace accelerated. He continued to send letters to newspapers and
to prove authenticity, he included squares of bloody clothing from
(01:47):
the cab driver's shirt. But apparently letters weren't enough. The
killer craved more attention. In October nineteen sixty nine, Californians
gathered around their television in anticipation of the Zodiac's on
air debut. They were desperate to finally hear the voice
of unspeakable evil.
Speaker 7 (02:15):
That was the voice of a man who called himself
the Zodiac Killer. He's talking to attorney Melvin Belli by
phone on a television conversation show. This bizarre situation began
at two o'clock this morning when the so called Zodiac
telephone police headquarters. He said he was sick, he needed help,
and he wanted to talk to Attorney Melvin bell I
on television.
Speaker 1 (02:36):
The Oakland Police Department contacted Belli that night. Bell I
was a well known celebrity lawyer whose clients included the
Rolling Stones in Muhammad Ali. With only hours notice, bell
I came on the Jim Dunbar Show to speak with
the Zodiac live on TV.
Speaker 7 (02:52):
All the scheduled guests were canceled. Bell I waited for
Zodiac to call on the private line. The phone was
not tapped. The telephone twelve times. He spoke very little
with Attorney Belly trying to draw him out that maybe
he's afraid of being beaten up or something like that.
Speaker 8 (03:07):
Now, why don't we just ask Sam to tell us
a little bit more about what he's feeling right now?
Tell us about your feeling, Sam, you know, just tell
us anything you want to.
Speaker 9 (03:16):
And then we'll come back and I'll give you a specific.
Speaker 7 (03:18):
Answer to this question. And are going to the gas chamber.
Talk to us.
Speaker 4 (03:22):
Just tell us what's going on inside of you right now?
Speaker 10 (03:24):
Sam?
Speaker 9 (03:25):
Please, I have a headache.
Speaker 11 (03:28):
How long do you had those headaches?
Speaker 9 (03:30):
Sam?
Speaker 7 (03:32):
In a long time?
Speaker 6 (03:34):
I killed a kid. If it all balls down to
the question that you're giving yourself up, if you could
be assured that you wouldn't.
Speaker 7 (03:42):
Get count for the punishment for myself, I want to
kill a kid. Bell I finally arranged to meet Zodiac
in Daily City, a suburb south of San Francisco, to
talk in person. So inside the thrift shop Saint Vincent
(04:05):
de Paul Tourney, Melvin Belli and the San Francisco police
waited for the Zodiac killer.
Speaker 8 (04:18):
We were told to he would lead us at the
Saint Vincent de Paul Society locks in on Mission Street
in Daily City. We waited about, I guess over an
hour and no evidence that he was there. So, yeah,
is there anything more to this afternoon that leads you
to believe that the man who called indeed might have
been the legitimate Zodiac killer? Well again, you know my
(04:42):
opinion on a dime will buy you have a couple
of coffee. I don't really know. The only thing I
can conclude, as I'm sure anyone listening might have concluded,
is it's sounded like a fellow who does have a
pretty serious problem and is pretty seriously disturbed. Whether it's Zodiac,
I don't know.
Speaker 7 (05:08):
The man did not show, So now all we can
do is wait, perhaps for that next phone call from
the man who calls himself Zodiac, who has killed five
says he's going to kill again, Dickchmaker, ABC News, San Francisco.
Speaker 2 (05:20):
We'll be back with more news.
Speaker 1 (05:22):
In a moment, police brought in the witnesses who had
heard the Zodiac speak, Brian Hartnell, the survivor from the
Lake Barriesa stabbing, and two phone operators who had heard
the Zodiacs calls. No one knew whether it was the
real Zodiac. The Zodiac had now killed five people, and
his attacks seemed to be accelerating. Half a year separated
(05:46):
the first two shootings. Then only three months later was
the Lake Barriessa attack, and then just two weeks after that,
the Zodiac shot cab driver Paul Stein in San Francisco.
The La Times reported that the threat of his next
crime galvanized one of the most massive manhunts and one
of the greatest waves of public alarm in San Francisco history.
(06:09):
The manhunt extended as far as Atascadero, four hours south
of San Francisco. There, police checked up on three hundred
ex inmates of a hospital for the criminally insane, But
despite this intensive search, the case went cold until two
months later when Melvin Belli, the famous attorney you heard earlier,
(06:31):
received a strange letter The Zodiac had sent a letter
directly to Belli's home with a piece of the cab
driver's bloody shirt to prove its authenticity.
Speaker 9 (06:41):
Dear Melboyn, this is the Zodiac speaking. I wish you
a happy Christmas. The one thing I ask of you
is this, Please help me. I cannot reach out for
help because of this thing in need.
Speaker 4 (06:53):
Won't let me.
Speaker 9 (06:55):
I am finding it extremely difficult to hold it in check.
I'm afraid I will lose control again and take my
ninth and possibly tenth victim.
Speaker 4 (07:03):
Please help me. I am drowning at the moment.
Speaker 9 (07:08):
The children are safe from the bomb because it is
so massive to dig in and the trigger mech requires
much work to get it adjusted just right. But if
I hold back too long from number nine, I will
lose complete all control of myself and set the bomb up.
Speaker 4 (07:23):
Please help me.
Speaker 9 (07:24):
I cannot remain in control for much longer, Signed Zodiac.
Speaker 1 (07:33):
It seemed like maybe the Zodiac really was reaching out
to the lawyer to get help, but the letter also
had his usual threats. He mentioned the bus bombs and
was now claiming eight victims. The Zodiac had included specific
details about his first five murders in his letters, but
then he said he would start to disguise his killings,
(07:53):
making them look like routine robberies, killings of anger, or accidents.
Because of this, police were unsure which recent.
Speaker 4 (08:00):
Murders might be the Zodiacs.
Speaker 1 (08:04):
After attorney Melvin bell I received the Zodiac's letter, he
published a response in the San Francisco Chronicle. He said
he was willing to meet the killer any time, any place.
Bell I said, if you want to meet with me alone,
I will come alone. He continued, I believe he wants
to stop killing. He knows eventually he will get apprehended,
(08:24):
and that unless he gets proper legal representation, he will
most probably be sentenced to die in the gas chamber.
Bell I was next contacted by telephone. While bell I
was out, a man claiming to be the Zodiac called
and asked to speak with him. Bell I alerted the
FBI and the San Francisco Police Department. They tapped his
(08:47):
phone so they could trace future calls, and again they waited,
hoping the Zodiac would call back. Eventually, another call came.
Police managed to trace the call and detect stives. Tosky
and Armstrong drove out to arrest the Zodiac. They arrived
at a mental hospital. The caller had been a patient,
(09:10):
a man named Eric wil He was a hippie and
an amateur photographer. The detectives determined that while was the
caller to the Jim Dunbar show, but ultimately they also
ruled him out as a suspect. The voice on the
television call in show was not the Zodiac. Reporters accounts
(09:34):
about Eric Wylde differ. Some say he was at a
mental hospital in Oakland, others say it was in Napa,
north of Valeo, and it's unclear exactly how the detectives
ruled out Eric Wyle as a suspect. But serial killer
expert Eric Hakey told us that while there's obviously something
wrong with them, it's rare for serial killers to be mentally.
Speaker 10 (09:57):
Ill killers definitely, but they don't have mental illness. When
you talk about mental illness, we're talking about people who
they hear voices, they hallucinate, their schizophrenic, they're psychotic. That's
mental illness. We treat people for that, we get them
medications for it. But then there's another group of people
who have mental disorder, like serial killers. Now some percent
(10:20):
of them are Claire thinking, but they're they're narcissistic, they're
they're antisocial, and they have those kinds of issues going
on with them, but they know right from wrong. In
a court of law, they would not be found to
be insane. People get confused. I think, well, look at
Jeffrey Dahmer. If you killed seventeen people and eighthan for dinner,
(10:41):
you must be insane. Well, the behavior is insane. A
Dahmer was never mentally ill. He knew right from wrong.
He even admitted he always knew it was wrong to
do what he was doing. Now, yet there are other
people who are truly mentally ill when they do these
types of things. So that always has to be figured out.
And you're looking at a crime scene, is this someone
(11:01):
who's mentally ill or is this someone who's psychopathic. In
my field, we examine psychopathology. What level of psychopathology would
the Zodiact be? At one scale that's used or studies
psychopathology goes from zero to forty points. Most people are
going to be between a four and eight on the scale,
and then the occasional criminal that does things once in
(11:22):
a while they're going to rate in the low teens.
But then you get people who are kind of antisocial.
Most people in prisons today are what we call sociopaths.
You know, they probably rate eighteen to twenty nine on
that scale. They're impulsive, they don't learn from their mistakes,
they have high recidivism rates and so on. They are
anti social, but they still love their moms, they still
(11:44):
have emotional attachments to people, whereas a true psychopath, they're
thirty and above. And these people do not have emotional
attachments to people. They don't have empathy, they don't have
a conscience. There aren't that many of them out there,
and a lot of psychopaths. True psychopaths never get caught
because what differentiates them from sociopaths is that they have
(12:05):
a skill set that's incredible. They can manipulate and lie
and charm people, and they're so good at their social
skills that people just don't believe that they could be
doing anything wrong. And that's a smaller group called those psychopaths.
One of the mist about serial murder is that you
know they're all psychopaths. Well, this is not true. Only
(12:25):
twenty five thirty percent were found to be true psychopaths.
Speaker 1 (12:29):
Doctor Hickey says the Zodiac is likely a true psychopath.
You're the top of that forty point scale because of
his self obsession and craving for fame.
Speaker 10 (12:39):
Narcissism is one of the traits we see in true psychopaths.
They are quite narcissistic and thus they want to be
recognized for what they've done. So it is not surprising
that the Zodiac killer that it's all about him because
he's smarter than the police, he's smarter than his victims.
He'll never get caught. That's kind of thinking that he's
better than everybody else, And the fact that he did
(12:59):
get him with it for this long shows that he
was right.
Speaker 1 (13:20):
The whole TV call in saga and then subsequent contact
with Melvin Belly was puzzling. Investigators determined the caller to
both the TV show and to Belly's house was mental
patient Eric Wyle, and that Wyle couldn't be the Zodiac,
but the actual Zodiac had written to Belly and he
included a piece of Paulstein's shirt as proof. What was
(13:44):
going on was the Zodiac's letter a real cry for help.
Had the Zodiac set up the TV call in but
then Eric Wyle interrupted it, or had Wyle set up
the call in, and then the Zodiac wrote to Belly
to try and stir up more media attention. The timing
of this letter to Belli was interesting. It was mailed
(14:06):
the day after another California killer's face was plastered on
the cover of Life.
Speaker 6 (14:11):
Magazine, December nineteenth, nineteen sixty nine. Life Magazine the strange
story of Charlie Manson and his brood of New Bile
flower children charged with murder life in a sex and
drug devoted communal family that lived on the far edge
of society under the absolute, almost mystical domination of Charles Manson.
(14:32):
Manson gave the orders and the family carried them out.
Charlie Manson so disturbed the American millions last week when
he was charged with sending four dociled girls and a
hairy male acolyte off to slaughter strangers in two Los
Angeles houses last August. What failure of the human condition
could produce a Charles Manson? What possible aspects of such
(14:56):
a creature's example could induce sweet faced young women to
acts of such numbing cruelty.
Speaker 1 (15:03):
The Manson story was a media sensation the next day
when the Zodiac sent his letter to Melvin BELLI was
he trying to regain the attention he seemed to so
desperately crave. The Manson trial and its press coverage stretched
on for months, and America was repeatedly shocked by new
revelations about the Manson family, but the Zodiac wasn't willing
(15:27):
to give up his place on the front page. If
you pay attention to when the Zodiac sent his letters,
it seems as if for every article published about Manson,
the Zodiac responded within days with a new letter, taunting
police with an ever increasing kill count and demanding the
press give him the coverage he felt he deserved.
Speaker 6 (15:49):
April nineteenth, nineteen seventy. San Francisco Examiner cult chief's pal
guilty and.
Speaker 4 (15:55):
Killing April twentieth, nineteen seventy. This is the Zodiac speaking.
Speaker 6 (16:00):
Busile A twenty two testify it was Manson who killed Hinman.
The baby face defendant said, Manson, leader of a nomadic
hippie style clan, sought twenty thousand dollars from Hinman. Charles
pulled a sword from behind his leg and stabbed busil At, said, I.
Speaker 9 (16:16):
Hope you do not think that I was the one
who wiped out that blue Mini with a bomb of
the cop station. Even though I talked about killing school
children with one, it just wouldn't do to move in
on someone else's territory. I've killed ten people to date.
Speaker 6 (16:28):
April twenty first, nineteen seventy. Gas chamber for a musician.
Speaker 9 (16:32):
Slayer April twenty eighth, nineteen seventy. I hope you enjoy
yourselves when I have my blast.
Speaker 6 (16:38):
Boussolet maintained it was Manson who killed Hinman.
Speaker 9 (16:41):
If you don't want me to have this blast, you
must do two things. One tell everyone about the bus
bomb with all the details. Two, I would like to
see some nice Zodiac buttons wandering around town. Everyone else
has these buttons like peace, black power, Melvin EAT's blubber
cheer me up considerably. If I saw a lot of
(17:01):
people wearing my button, please know nasty ones like Melvin's.
Speaker 6 (17:06):
June twelfth, nineteen seventy. Manson battles with bailiffs. Charles Manson
fought with three bailiffs trying to force him into his seat,
then was led shouting out of court along with three others,
charged with murdered conspiracy and the slayings of actress Sharon
Tate and six others. The women sat down, then jumped
up again. Miss Krinwinkle raised her arms and addressed newsmen
(17:26):
seated in the jury section. We gave our lives once before.
Don't you know who we are? You put us on
the cross once before. Why don't you do it again?
Speaker 9 (17:38):
June twenty sixth, nineteen seventy. This is the Zodiac speaking.
I have become very upset with the people of San
fran Bay area. They have not complied with my wishes
for them to wear some nice Zodiac buttons. I promised
to punish them if they did not comply by annihilating
a full school bus, but now school is out for
the summer, so I punished them in an I shot
(18:01):
a man sitting in a parked car with a thirty
eight Zodiac twelve.
Speaker 4 (18:06):
San Francisco Police Department zero.
Speaker 6 (18:10):
July twenty fourth, nineteen seven. State tells bizarre Tate killing's motive.
Charles Manson hoped to touch off a Negro white blood
bath in the United States by making it appear that
blacks had committed the Tate LaBianca murders. Manson, thirty five,
appeared in court with a red cross slashed on his forehead,
framed by his dangling hair. Manson did it with two
(18:30):
slashes of a razor blade. Manson has in the past
called himself Christ and Jesus.
Speaker 9 (18:37):
July twenty fourth, nineteen seventy. I am rather unhappy because
you people will not wear some nice Zodiac buttons. So
I now have a little list, starting with a woman
and her baby that I gave a rather interesting ride
for a couple hours one evening a few months back.
Speaker 6 (18:52):
July twenty fifth, nineteen seventy, Manson wanted race war with
a Beatles song spinning in his mind, Charles Manson and
ordered the murders of actress Sharon Tate and six others
in hopes of igniting a black white war. To Manson,
Helter Skelter, one of the Beatles' songs, meant the black
man rising up against the white establishment and murdering the
(19:14):
entire white race. Manson believed the race war would wipe
out all whites except Manson and his clan, who intended
to escape by going to the desert. Helter Skelter was
scrawled in blood on a wall at the home of
two of the victims. The scrawlings and other evidence were
aimed at making it look like black people had murdered
the five tape victims.
Speaker 4 (19:36):
July twenty sixth, nineteen seventy.
Speaker 9 (19:39):
Being that you will not wear some nice Zodiac buttons,
how about wearing some nasty Zodiac buttons. If you do
not wear any buttons, I shall, on top of everything else,
torture all thirteen of my slaves that I have waiting
for me in paradise. Some I shall tie over an
hills and watch them scream and twitch and squirm. Others
shall be placed in cages and feds salt beef until
(20:00):
they are gorged. And then I shall listen to their
pleas for water, and I shall laugh at them. Others
will hang by their thumbs and burn in the sun.
Then I will rub them down with deep heat to
warm them up. And all billiard players, I shall have
them play in a dark and dungeon cell with crooked
cues and twisted shoes. Yes, I shall have great fun
(20:21):
inflicting the most delicious of pain to my slaves. San
Francisco Police Department, zero Zodiac.
Speaker 6 (20:28):
Thirteen October twenty seventh, nineteen seven. Witness describes Manson's visions
of racial warfare. Manson had compounded a theory of eminent
racial strife from the Bible and the Beatles. After the killings,
whites were to go into the black ghetto and kill
then the blacks would wipe out the white survivors. But
after the blacks had won, they would not like the
(20:50):
responsibility of governing and would call Manson and his followers
from the desert. Houston said he was under the influence
of LSD in June sixty nine when he met Manson
in the Sunset Boulevard home of a member of the
Beach Boys rock group. He asked me if I could
make love in front of twenty five people, said Postin
He said he thought Manson was Jesus Christ.
Speaker 9 (21:14):
October twenty seventh, nineteen seventy Paradise Slaves by fire, by gun,
by knife, by rope peek a boo, you are doomed
fourteen boo signed Z.
Speaker 1 (21:33):
Melvin Bellie wasn't the only one to receive a personal
message from the Zodiac. That last correspondence you heard from
the Zodiac was actually a Halloween card, a black card
with a dancing skeleton. The writer had used white out
to draw cryptic symbols and thirteen peering eyes. He sent
it to Paul Avery, a reporter at the San Francisco
(21:55):
Chronicle who'd been covering the Zodiac. Duffy Jennings remembers when
Avery received the card.
Speaker 12 (22:01):
During the course of my a couple of years as
a copy boy, I got to know all the reporters
pretty well, and that included Paul Avery. He'd been a
war correspondent in Vietnam and he loved to do crime stuff.
He kind of took a shine to me and we
became sort of friends. He was a few years older
around nineteen seventy. As I started to work as a
(22:23):
reporter and we became closer friends. I'd go with him
out following the leads about certain suspects or types of
evidence that would come in. Only one Zodiac letter was
actually personal to Paul Avery. It was a Halloween card
he sent and had kind of a creepy message to it, peekaboo,
(22:45):
You're doomed, I think it said.
Speaker 3 (22:47):
The two homicide inspectors who were working with the Zodiac
case came in and tapped me on the shoulder and
pulled me outside and said we received another letter from
the Zodiac, and it was a to you. It was
a Halloween card interpreted as being a threat to me.
At that point, he had been claiming thirteen victims. This
(23:09):
one mentioned fourteen, and the presumption was that either he
had killed fourteen people at that point and maybe I
was number fifteen, or maybe I was supposed to be
number fourteen.
Speaker 12 (23:20):
At that time in the seventies, reporters didn't get killed
in the line of duty. I think maybe in that
whole decade there might have been, up to that point,
one reporter, a guy named Don Bowles at the Phoenix,
who had his car blown up by some organized crime
figures he'd been writing about. But otherwise, reporters it wasn't
an unsafe job. As we talked, there's an assault on
(23:43):
the media going on, and there's a lot of fear
of what people might do. But at that time in
the seventies, you never thought about your own safety. So
when Avery was threatened, somebody in our newsroom engaged in
a bit of sort of Maudlin newsroom humor, which you
know we are one to do, and they had these
buttons made up, big white buttons like campaign buttons, and
(24:05):
it said, in big black block letters, I am not Avery.
We all got one and wore them when we had
a great laugh about it, and Herb Caine, who was
the big gossip columnist, wrote an item about it, and
then TV stations sent crews over to do stories about
the buttons, and then it became national news that all
the people there chronicle were wearing these I'm not Avery buttons.
(24:29):
Avery himself wore a button and I said, are you
concerned about this at all? He goes nah, He said,
I'm not worried about it, but I have to tell
you that in addition to wearing a button, Paul started
to wear a holster. He got a handgun permit from
the police chief.
Speaker 3 (24:45):
I think the Zodiac is just making an idle threat, frankly,
but at the same time, I'm no fool. I'm going
to be very careful. There was a conference with the
police department, a discussion of possible police protection for me.
He was finally decided that this, you know, at this
time at least is un warranted. Somebody takes a shot
(25:06):
at me, that'll be a different case. But at this
point is we don't feel any need for protection.
Speaker 12 (25:12):
And I have to tell you that whenever I went
out of the building with Paul. I had to kind
of look around. You didn't think Zodiac was the kind
of guy who was going to target someone in particular,
But what if he did, and what if he missed?
What if you were with the guy? All this goes
through your head.
Speaker 3 (25:28):
He is bragged of killing up to possibly fourteen people,
but there's absolutely no evidence that he's killed more than five.
I put no credence in this. I think he just
wanted to get himself a little publicity. Well the killings
that have gone on in this area in recent weeks
that have created a very big headlines. Possibly he's a
little miffed he's not the center of attention anymore.
Speaker 1 (26:00):
The Zodiac had been continuously bragging about new murders in
the eleven letters and cards he sent in just over
a year, but he'd stopped supplying any evidence. Had he
made good on his threat to disguise his murders as
routine killings, or had he stopped killing altogether and the
letters were just for attention. We spoke to criminal psychologist
(26:23):
James Fox about whether serial killers ever do just stop killing.
Speaker 11 (26:29):
I started studying multiple homicide, including serial murder, back in
the early nineteen eighties. Back then people essentially believed that
repeat killers were glassy at lunatics, and we found actually
that they were extraordinarily ordinary, and that was why they're
so dangerous. If they looked and acted like the serial
killers in the movies Jason or Freddy Krueger, we'd avoid
(26:52):
them like the plague. But the fact that they blend
in so well and have an outward appearance of being
a nice guy makes them extramely dangerous. Many of them
were quintessential sociopaths. They cared only for their own pleasures,
no matter who they hurt in the process. And they
also had a satiable need for power and control and dominance,
(27:13):
and oftentimes satisfied those nees through rape and torture and mayhem.
But one thing that's fairly clear is that lots of
people have this excessive need for power and control and dominance,
but they're able to satisfy it in socially legitimate ways.
(27:34):
They may be a corporate executive who hires and fires
and enjoys the idea of hurting other people through these firings,
or they may be a college professor who enjoys funking
a student and seeing them squirm. But the thing about
serial killers is they don't have that ability. They don't
have an outlet to satisfy their needs for power and dominance.
(27:55):
To give it a good example, Dennis Raider, the BTK killer,
always wanted to be I'm a police officer, but wasn't
able to make it onto the force. He started killing victims.
But after many years, when he got a position as
a compliance officer in his neighborhood and he could give
people citations if their grass was too long, gave him
(28:16):
the authority that he always wanted to have, and then
he stopped killing. He stopped killing because he had another
way to satisfy that power he wanted over other people.
Speaker 1 (28:31):
Were The Zodiac's letters. His outlet did manipulating the police
and the media quench his desire for power and control.
Here's Zodiac expert Michael Butterfield.
Speaker 13 (28:43):
The Zodiac went from being a nameless killer on a
road at night, to being a bizarre killer wearing a
costume during daylight, to killing a cab driver in a
populated area, to threatening school children, and then becoming a
modern terrorist. After his last known murder cab driver Paul Stein.
(29:04):
The Zodiac wrote a lot of letters but didn't appear
to engage in any further attacks. There was never any
bomb found along any roadsides. There's never any attempts to
bomb any school buses or anything. But he sure created
weeks and months of terror in the Bay Area that
(29:27):
is remembered to this day. And I think that was
part of his goal. These bombs served the purpose of
removing him from the equation. He doesn't have to be
there anymore. He knew that all he would have to
do is draw a little bomb and mail it to
a newspaper, and it would not only create instant terror,
but it would be covered all over the place. Even
(29:49):
though the Zodiac probably had stopped killing and was sitting
at home just watching TV and reading the newspaper, do
you still feel scared of it? Has no resolution, no end,
because you still think he's out there. He became someone
who could be around any corner and in any shadow
at any time. But the Zodiac was also sort of
(30:12):
drowned out at times by other major crime stories. A
lot of people were paying more attention to things like
the Manson trial and all the chaos and insanity of that.
And then as the sixties came to an end in
the seventies came around. That was the age of the
serial killer, and I think the Zodiac was sort of
(30:34):
overshadowed by all of this, and perhaps he sensed that
in some way that time had moved on, that America
had become even more violent than he was and moved
to another level, and maybe that's why he in a
sense stepped away from it. But then in March of
(30:56):
nineteen seventy, a young woman claimed that she had been
driving along a freeway and a vehicle pulled.
Speaker 4 (31:02):
Up alongside her.
Speaker 13 (31:04):
The man inside gestured towards her vehicle as if there
was something wrong, so she pulled over. The man pulled
over and said, hey, your tires loose. That gave him
a perfect opportunity to pretend to be the good Samaritan
and offer her a.
Speaker 5 (31:22):
Ride next time on Monster the Zodiac killer.
Speaker 13 (31:34):
Investigators at Riverside were watching and saying, this looks kind
of familiar, and maybe these crimes are connected.
Speaker 9 (31:43):
A young, inexperienced Zodiac murdered Edwards and Domingos more than
five years before his reign of terror in San Francisco.
Speaker 3 (31:52):
It said, Bates had to die. There will be more
right at the bottom, is z.
Speaker 8 (32:00):
In his monotone, no killing, no looking at me, Ryan
or on.
Speaker 3 (32:03):
He said to you that he was going to kill you.
Speaker 2 (32:05):
You're gonna die.
Speaker 9 (32:06):
You know I'm gonna kill you and throw that maybe out.
Speaker 5 (32:22):
Monster the Zodiac Killer is a fifteen episode podcast produced
by iHeartRadio, hou Stuff Works and Tenderfoot TV. Donald Alright
and I are executive producers on behalf of Tenderfoot TV,
alongside producers Meredith Stebman, Mason Lindsay, and Christina Dana. Jason
Hope is executive producer on behalf of How Stuff Works,
(32:42):
along with producers Trevor Young, Miranda Hawkins, ben Keebrick, and
Josh Thain. Scott Benjamin provides additional voice talent. Matt Frederick
is our host. Original music is by Makeup and Vanity Set.
If you haven't already, make sure to check out the
first season of Monster called Atlanta Monster, about the Atlanta
child murders from the late seventies to the early eighties.
(33:05):
Download the ten episode season right now. Have questions or
comments email us at Monster at houstuffworks dot com, or
you can call us at one eight three, three, two
eight five six six sixty seven.
Speaker 12 (33:19):
Thanks for listening.
Monster: The Zodiac Killer News
Hosts And Creators
Payne Lindsey
Matt Frederick
Popular Podcasts
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Intentionally Disturbing
Join me on this podcast as I navigate the murky waters of human behavior, current events, and personal anecdotes through in-depth interviews with incredible people—all served with a generous helping of sarcasm and satire. After years as a forensic and clinical psychologist, I offer a unique interview style and a low tolerance for bullshit, quickly steering conversations toward depth and darkness. I honor the seriousness while also appreciating wit. I’m your guide through the twisted labyrinth of the human psyche, armed with dark humor and biting wit.