113: Ahsoka

Star Wars expert and return guest Riley J. Silverman joins Dani to discuss the known life of Ahsoka Tano.

Footnotes:

Why Ahsoka is the Best Jedi

Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.com

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:08):
Hello, and welcome to another edition of Nedificent from Home,
possibly indefinitely. I feel like they might have just sold
our studio at this point. I don't even know who's
over there. I just imagine it's a bunch of cobwebs,
but like we're also maybe possibly getting mail over there.
I don't know. Um My, my co host this week

(00:31):
is our beautiful, wonderful super producer Joel Monique. Do you
think is happening over at our studio? I know what's
happening over there, but I sort of like the mystery
that you've created. I love now that you're you're a
super producer and like produced so many shows now at
my heart that you have the inside more than I do. Yes, absolutely,

(00:53):
I know who manages our unit. So I say, if
you have mail coming there, it's safe, okay if you
I think there was like an edible company that was
going to send us edibles and so I might need
to take a visit to ours. Have to run over
there and just see what's up with that. Absolutely. Um.
Today's guest she is a writer, a comedian. Repeat guest

(01:17):
that was on our Doctor Who episode, one of our
most listened to episodes. It's Riley Silverman, Hey, Hello, And
as someone who at least unless you move studios, has
been in your studio before and for multiple podcasts, I'm
assuming even with all this happening, there was still a
parking headache the parking lot behind the building. There is
still someone saying there's no room for cars and we're

(01:39):
not supposed to park where we've been told by every
email we're supposed to park, even though we have paid
parking spots for you, Riley specifically as a guest, I
know it was someone should do. I feel like you
could actually do a television show about that parking lot, like,
oh my gosh, there'd be so much drama and stuff.

(02:00):
Um today, Joel, do you want to tell everyone what
we're talking about. We're talking about my favorite Jedi. It's
a socaton. Oi'm so excited we are, and I think,
you know, we've tried to attack Star Wars is such
a huge franchise. You know, at the start of the year,
we had like five weeks I think we did tackling

(02:22):
different elements of Star Wars, and so for for us,
it's it's so much more fun to talk about niche
like character, like breaking down you know, about droids are
breaking down about our favorite characters as opposed to talking
about Star Wars at large. Since there's entire podcast dedicated
to Lady Danny, it's a lot less research on my
end about one character instead of the very broad scope.

(02:45):
I like the broad scopes, so because we we really
were able to get into like what do those things
mean on sort of like both the nebulous level and
like a very specific sort of analyzing of how do
they improve the series and what does that mean different characters.
But like to talk about Asoka, who is sort of
the first you see female Jedi walking in the background
of things. If you're fans of the novels, you may
have come across one like in training or like running

(03:07):
the library, do you want a lot of cool stuff?
But this is the first Jedi that where we are
like in their story and she become such a fan
favorite and like much like Harley Queen's journey from animated
character to live action to comic books and source spilling out,
so because had a very similar journey and so to
sort of see her blossom into both an older figure

(03:30):
having the revisit of her like late teen years in
the New Clone Wars season. There's just there's so much
to like, love and see about her timeline and there's
still so much to go and because of Star Wars,
and they just get to pop in that timeline whenever.
What she means to the series overall could change in
twenty years and it could be a huge impact. And
it's one of the reasons I love her. I feel

(03:51):
like she was created for me. I got into Star
Wars during the Clone Wars animated series. I've watched it before,
but that's when I fell in love and a Soco
was sort of the person who guided me through that series.
I love her. But well, speaking as you're clearly geeking now,
I'm gonna transition. You know, our historically great transitions on

(04:13):
this we just call them out like we see that.
Um uh. Every week we start with what we're geeking
out about. And Riley, I would love to start with you.
Is there anything that you're super into right now? Um?
I mean it's with the Quarantine world. It feels like
such a weird time to get out abou stuff because
you're keeping out about things that like may have aired
like years and years ago. You're like refinding old things.

(04:36):
But what I've been doing is So I I have
temporarily relocated to Ohio because I was helping my mom
move um and I had to drive to do that,
so I actually packed up my work stuff and came
out here, and I've been working out of Ohio and
still kind of pretty quarantined out here. But my girlfriend
has never seen most of the Marvel Cinematic movies, so
we have actually been working our way through them together,

(04:58):
which is really fun to do. So that's been a
huge thing. And then also she had never seen except
for I think Jurassic World, she had never seen any
of Durassic Park movies, and we went and saw Jaws
and Jurassic Park as a double feature at at a
drive in theater. And so now we're slowly working away
through Durrassic Park movies too. So it's been a lot
of like binging of like movie franchises that she missed
out on at certain points in her life. So I'm

(05:20):
envious of your quarantine because that sounds amazing. So did you, um,
are you watching it the m c U how it
was released? Yeah, I think at smart here to do
it that way. And also I kind of let her
pick like the same thing, like she actually very apropoe
for today's discussion. She chose to get into Star Wars

(05:41):
last fall because she had only only had ever seen
like I think, like Phantom Menace when she worked in
a movie theater and we went through Galaxy's Edge last
September August September UM at Disneyland, and I freaked out
because it's like my main one of my main like
lifetime fandoms, and it was amazing to finally see it

(06:01):
in person like that. And she thought it was fun,
but didn't have the same quite connection that I did
with it. So then she made the decision that she
wanted to go through Star Wars herself and like watch everything,
and one of the most important aspects of doing that,
I think was letting her make her own journey with it.
So I I never said, like, you have to watch

(06:22):
the movies in this order and enjoy it in this way,
and she like researched it herself and decided which way
she went, like she asked me for my advice, but
um ultimately chose to do it her own way. And
it was so funny because then I remember like going
online and I was like tweeting and posting about her
reactions to the things that she was watching, and we

(06:42):
were having some fun interactions and so many and you know,
mostly dude sorry guys um would message me or respond
to my tweets with like the instructions they wanted me
to give my girl improve her viewing process. And I
remember thinking, like, like, you know, I I think about
how many times in my life I've heard uh, like

(07:04):
straight like this dude like probably white talk about like
how like they can't get their girlfriends into their nerdy things.
And I almost go, maybe the reason why you can't
isn't because they're not in the stuff. It's that like
you have made it so there's no chance for them
to find any joy in it as you go through
it with them, because if they try to watch it,

(07:25):
you're not trying to let them have their own experience
with it. You're trying to have your exact experience with it,
how you curate it. And I don't think it works
that way. So yeah, I think that like with Star Wars,
I very much like let her make her like I
I step back, and she went on her own journey
with it, and she ended up loving it, and now
she's a pretty big Star Wars fan. But I think

(07:46):
that if I had been like, no, okay, so you
gotta watch, you gotta watch Star Wars and an Empire
and then you're gonna watch you're gonna forget in a
menus and then you're gonna watch Tecnic Clonson. Then you're
gonna watch humto this like she would have her eyes
would have glazed over and she would have been done.
But instead it was like that, And so that same
thing with with the m c u UM. She just
kind of like looked it up and I think I
think for her release order makes the most sense, so

(08:07):
she's watched watching it that way. Yeah, I mean that
that's such a good point of like I feel like
I have dated a couple of people who like when
a scene is coming up there like oh you gotta
you know, like they're just trying to take away like
the moment from you, and like we're all gonna have
Something that I remember is when you sit down to
watch a movie, you bring all of your life experiences

(08:28):
with you to that, and a lot of people don't
understand that. So we're never it's never going to be
the same for me as like say someone I'm dating
and vice versa, like there are moments in these films
that I might latch onto in a way that they don't.
And so I think if you don't exactly resonate with
a film or a specific moment in the way that
they do, even though their experiences are so different, it's

(08:49):
like yours is somehow less than and it's like as
opposed to just letting her, like you said, just experience
it and take what she does. And it's yeah, but
also I did want to say so when my my
family got Disney Plus, my older brother texted me and
he was like, oh, I'm watching all the m c
U because he has two kids and he just like
picks up what movies he can here and there, um.

(09:10):
And he also doesn't have to do this for a living,
so he doesn't go. He never sees anything in theaters
ever um anymore. Uh and so but it was funny
because he wrote me and he was like, oh, I'm watching.
I found this article and it said this is how
you're supposed to watch them. And I was like, no,
that article was probably written by Hector navarre Or. And

(09:33):
I told Hector, I'm like I hate you. Because Hector
was so big about like you watched this and then
you hop over and you watch this, and then because
it was like canonically closing scene ties into this move
I read that scene. I love Hector, but yeah, it's right.
I'm like, Hector, that's great if you've already seen Yes,
thank you. That's not a great viewing method if you've

(09:54):
never seen them. And like even his article kind of
requires you to have seen them to understand, right, it
tells you the things that connect, which like, if you
haven't seen them, that article spoils it all for you.
And like you still in the end. And again, Hector
has been on here five times and I'll like clip
and send this to home because I literally wrote him
and I was like, damn you. You got to my

(10:14):
brother who had never seen them. But yeah, it's just
really funny how there's no Oh, that's why I want
to say, there's no right way to like consume a
lot of this, especially when it's been out for decades.
A lot of us might have caught some of it,
like half the movie on on FFX during July four
weekend or you know it's yeah, it's yeah. So I

(10:38):
was I was talking to somebody recently about how different.
Watching franchises is now versus when like I was a
little kid in the eighties, because the way, like the fact,
like your brother can can catch up to the m
c you like going on Disney Plus and watching it
in the release order, and now like any parents who
like want to get their kids into m c U

(10:59):
stuff can do that with Disney Plus or the DVD
collection or whatever. But back in the ages were like, yes,
you had VHS tapes, but for the most part, when
franchise movies came out, you almost just joined the franchise
with whatever movie was new. When you were like I,
I have much better vivid memories of seeing Indiana Jones
in the Last Crusade than I do have Raiders of

(11:20):
the Lost Arc because like Temple of Doom was a
little I was a little too young when it came out,
so it was like my brother's movie. But I like
the idea of the character of Indiana Jones. So when
Last Crusade came out, like it was Taylor made for me,
it's like, hey, here's a movie that's like your guy,
but now it's a new movie with him in it
and you can watch it. And same thing with like
Ghostbusters too, and something like that, where I was like

(11:42):
you I had I was aware of the first one,
but the second one was like my exact age range
when it came out and that's when you saw it.
And Green Wins too, like I saw Greenlins too and
enjoyed it before I saw Green Ones one. And now,
I mean, I'm sure people still do that, like their
kids are too young to know what sequels are, they
might just take their kids to see like a superhero movie.
But I do think that nowadays, like I imagine there's

(12:05):
not a lot of people who likes like kids who
are Star Wars fans who the first Star Wars when
they saw was Force Awakens. You know, I think most
of them probably got seen showing the trilogy, showing the
prequels maybe, or showing the cartoon shows or whatever. But
then when Force Wagans came out, then they took them
to see that till yeah. Um, luckily we have literally
everything at our consumption. Um, Joe, what are what are

(12:29):
you gigging out about? This week? The thing I've been
gigging out about a lot is Central Park, which is
a new show on Apple TV. It's a cheating show
by the guy who created Bob's Burgers. It's a musical.
It's set in Central Park. It's produced by Josh Gad.
It's not a perfect show. It's not the best show

(12:50):
you've ever seen, but damn is it lighthearted and funny.
Damn is it cute as hell? Um, it's not a
lot of your favorite Broadway stars. Uh, and it's it's
so the lightful. And now they're recast Christen Bell as
the half black, half lay girl. I'm really excited about that.
I don't know when season two is coming, but the
songs do slap and um. If you just need to

(13:11):
take your mind off of the hot garbage that is
the world, you can pop that in and just forget.
And it's so lovely. Love it. Mine is also an
animated show, and it's I watched the second season of
Harley Quinn and let me tell you, Harley Quinn, as
someone who actively works in television, is one of the

(13:31):
best shows comedically, has some of the best comedic writing.
If you want to be a comedy writer, watch this show.
I'm like, this is better than a lot of the
live action crap that gets put out. And I think
I say that because I do not think that she
gets the recognition. I don't think that the writers on

(13:52):
this show, the characters what they're doing in the social
commentary they're making well also just being badass and kicking
but like just you know, dicking around all the things
that she's allowed to do. Um. I don't think enough
people are talking about this show. So I hope that
this convinces you to be like, Okay, I'm finally gonna
sit down. I'm gonna watch this show because it is

(14:12):
such great writing. I think it's tough because DC Universe
is such like an extent, like not everybody's. It's such
a niche streaming service to have. But like I got
to I haven't seen season two yet because I don't
have DCU but I have so I have sci Fi
through Sling, and they aired season one on the sci
Fi Channel and you can watch that least off and
I don't know how recent it was, but at least

(14:33):
in in May you could watch season one on demand
on sci Fi on Demand. So really, I'll send you
my pass sword and stuff so you can watch season
two because it season one. I really will. I am
a lifelong Harley an Ivy shipper, and so I know
what happens season two, and I'm like obsessed with needing
to see it because like season one, I even liked

(14:53):
their last ship as friends because it gave me that
like Daria and Jane vibe that I have, like that
I needed, but like knowing where it went in season two,
I need to see it because I have that's my
O t P. Like I have shipped this. It's like
their first pair up on the Batman animated series, before
I understood that I was queer or what being queer
was or was, I was like, these two should be girlfriends.

(15:15):
I don't know if that means, but I want this
to happen. Then, hanging out at the mall and kidnapping
Batman is such an iconic episode for me personally. They
are the first fan fiction I got into, and my
my lesbian roommates were like, how are you not reading
all of their fan fiction? Like is that a thing
that exists? Like yes, and their cannon then and we
were together solely together when Um the comic book came out,

(15:35):
where they were like finally canonized and just absolutely the best.
And it's been such a long journey I think for
especially for like queer Harley stands of a certain age,
like that's sort of been are like the our entire
journey through fandom and queer canonized relationship sort of is
embodied in those two and the show got it right.
I'm still worried after season one. I'm like, what are

(15:57):
we doing? And now it's it's confirmed, and it's beautiful
and feels authentic. It's so good. Yeah. I interviewed Marguerite
Benett a couple of years ago, who was the first
one to make them a couple in the comics, in
the Bombshells comics, and I remember asking her what it
was like to finally take the ship and make it cannon,
and she said that it was such a prevalent ship
that she didn't even realize that when she did it,

(16:17):
that it wasn't already cannon because it was so prevalent
in the fandom of these two were a rankic pair
that she didn't realize that it was the first time
it actually kissed in the in the panel, I think,
I think it's adorable. Yeah. Um. Speaking of another animated
currently animated, see you look at these look at these

(16:38):
transitions leading lady a Sokatano. I want to know when
both of you first saw her, What was your first memory?
I want to take that one really. Um, I don't
know if I have an actual pinpoint, Like I I
didn't immediately get into Clone Wars like a lot of

(16:59):
people did when it first came on. Um, like the
now this is the Feloni Clone Jock the original Clone
Wars where she's not involved in, but she the the
Getty Tarkovski Clone Wars. But UM, I think it was
actually weirdly. I remember a friend of mine was talking
about his daughter dressing as a Sokatano for Halloween, and

(17:20):
like somebody was like kind of like what do you mean.
He's like, oh, it's it's Anakin's padawan from the Clone Wars,
And like they're like, wouldn't obscure character, But it's like no,
not for a kid who's watching Clone Wars and into
it and remember being like, oh, I want to know
who this character is. That like young girls watching Star
Wars like are relating to and dressing up as a costumes.
That's kind of how I became aware of her as

(17:40):
a character. Uh yeah, I caught onto her in Clone Wars.
I was a first night to Nomie. Waw was like
what like semi anime, but kind of this new three
D style I'm in and um. I was thirteen when
the show came out, so I was very much vibing
with it. I was like, oh my god, look at

(18:01):
this cool girl. And then sort of as Asoka grew, specifically,
her fight style got gets a lot stronger. The further
the show progressive, I just became more and more obsessed
with the idea that not only could a woman be
a Jedi, but she could she could take two of
the greatest Jedis ever to task frequently and when it

(18:21):
was just incredible. So she's leading armies at thirteen, like
as a solo kid who was doing like a ton
of extracurriculars and just like trying to embody the badass
woman I was seeing on TV Like Asoka was definitely
an early inspiration. Yeah. So when, as you all said,
when Asokatano burst on the scene as Anakin Skywalker's padawan
and the Star Wars animated series Clone Wars, she became

(18:44):
the first female Jedi lead lead in the canonical saga
and became an icon for millions over the world. She's
known by her nickname Snipped her precocious attitude, firm belief injuice,
and love for adventure made her a worthy student of
one of the most powerful force users in known history.
But she isn't just a student. Her destiny was to

(19:05):
be incredible force wielder. So I'm sure most people have
seen her. But in case they haven't and they're like,
who are you talking about? Um, Joel, can you explain
like her look to people, because it's very iconic. Yeah, okay,
So Katana is a hug Ruda. Is I think hug Ruda? Okay,

(19:27):
She's got these big blue eyes. She has white lake
who and Montreal's which are these blue and white stripes.
They look sort of like pigtails, but they're not. They're
not like Surry or Harry. They're sort of like an
extension of her skull essentially, but they're soft. Um and
as she grows, like the stripes on them get wider
and longer. She's slender, like mostly eyes and just like

(19:51):
a boxy, short fighter. Like if you've seen like some
of the greatest fighters, they tend to have like a
very low to the ground center of gravity and they
get those punch is out real quick. That's think tumbler. Yeah,
she has orange skin, and she also has these like
white lines on her skin that are almost like work paint,
Like she has like different like designs to those. And

(20:12):
when they first brought her out, she I, I'm not
a huge fan of her original costume when they when
she was like little, because it's like a tube top
and like a short skirt um and then like your
mom dropped off it for every twenty one and that's
what you came out with when you were twelve. As
as she matured and as the show mature about about
in season three, they kind of did like a bit

(20:33):
of a time jump to show the progression of time
during the Clone War, and she got this kind of
newer costume where it's more of a full full on
dress like cut like short dress with a little bit
of a boob window. But then she has like leggings
with these diamonds on them. And then, uh, she also
has a later costume like just those multiple costumes as
the Clone Wars came back and also as she appeared
on the TV series Rebels as well, and she's much

(20:55):
older and Rebels, but um, yeah, so that's kind of
her basic look is as kind of like like very
like fitted almost like workout closed Like she's like it's
very like utilitarian, like there's like it's like like belts
and stuff and places to hold her lightsabers and like
she does occasionally wear the Jedi robes, but never never
like the full on like white on brown like like

(21:16):
top like like you might see an Anakin or Obi
Wan wearing or even Yoda. She kind of has her
own like it's almost like it's almost like breaking like
workout gear or like like that kind of millet like
form fitting like that kind of combat gear. Talking more
about her combat gear, she also has. She has dual
blades and holds her lightsaber blade down rather than the

(21:37):
more traditional blade up. Can you do you all know?
I guess I don't know. Like the significance is that
just her fighting style that she's typically shown as. Yeah,
her fighting style favors more like deflecting blaster bolts than
it is like pure on combat, like she is a
very skilled lightsaber dualist like as she gets older especially,

(21:58):
but yeah, like she has originally she only has one lightsaber,
then she gets a second one, uh, and then she
loses both of those and then replaces them with new ones,
but um as as time passes on and the Clone
Wars and and stuff like that. But her original blades
are a green and kind of a yellowish green one.
And then when she comes back in Clone Wars, Anakin
gives her new ones that are blue that are like

(22:20):
her same her same hilts, but with a blue blade.
And then in the novel, which takes place a year
after Order sixty six, it's actually a really cool story
behind how she gets her lightsaber her new lightsabers is
that she's basically as the As the novel goes on,
she keeps collecting all this scrap metal and eventually she

(22:40):
realized that she's been slowly subconsciously building her own new lightsabers.
But then she needs the crystals, and she tries to
go to get the crystals, but the planet that they
normally got the crystals from, it's like a whole arc
about them in the Clone Wars, is now being mined
by the Empire for the crystals to use in the
Death Star. So then she like re is out to
the force for the crystals that are calling to her,

(23:02):
and she hears them in the sabers of this Sif
inquisitor who is like chasing after her, and she goes
and she defeats him in a duel and takes his
his crystals and puts them in her sabers and they
Basically there's a cannon now in newer Star Wars cannon
where the reason why CIF lightsaber blades are red is

(23:26):
because of the the Sith user is corrupting the blade
and it's like literally bleeding the energy out of it,
which is why it turns red. So then when Ahsoka
puts them back in her sabers and and ignites them,
she's purifying those red blades, and so now they burn white.
So she has these dual white lightsabers, which is also
supposed to be symbolic of the fact that she is

(23:47):
unaffiliated because at the time when this happened, she's no
longer a Jedi um. But so she's not she's not
a great Jedi. She is still a light light side
Force user, but she's like her own ronan kind of character,
and so they may her blades white to symbolize that.
Shout out to E. K. Jemison for writing one of
the sickest books in the Star Wars novel Bannon. If
You I'm I Love the Star Wars novels uh leya

(24:11):
Princess of Aldern is another like really great one. Of course,
all the Throng books are excellent, but this one hell's
a really special place in my heart, um because it's
sort of the first time, I mean, for Clone Wars
fans um you see Ahsoka travel through all these like
really tight battles and then right at the end, the
Jedi doubt her and she ends up leaving the Jedi. Um.

(24:34):
They don't trust her word. I don't want to, I
won't spoil it in case you want to get into
the series, but they don't trust her word, and she
winds up leaving, leaving Anakin. She's starting to sense that
he's turning, but she can't believe that it's happening, and
she can't quite put words to it, but she knows
she needs to get out, and she does. But we're
left with this like very like Cowboy Western walk away

(24:54):
where she just walks off into the sunset, Anakin's left
stay anything there, and you're like, but what happens to
our girl? And if you were watching that in real time,
it's about ten years before you get any kind of
news update on Soca and what happened to it is
the most maddening. It was so fresh, and I was like,
I need to know what happens to wards. When this
book came out, it was like, it was really wonderful
to see where she went. If you caught up with
the Clone Wars Season seven that just released on Disney Plus,

(25:18):
you get like they pick up little snippets of it. Um,
that's right after she leaves it. They picked up the
story almost immediately. So it's interesting you have like both
right after a year later and then I want to say,
like fifteen years later with Rebels as far as her
storyline goes. So, like I said, there's a lot to cover. Yeah,
the novel is set exactly one year after the Empire

(25:39):
takes over, and then Rebels is stead I think five
years before the beginning of a New Hope when he
was nineteen years later, So yeah, it's about fourteen years.
So yeah, I can't imagine anyone trying to tell y'all
anything about Star Wars. Like when I Riley, when I
was listening to you just rattle off everything that you
know about even her Lightsabers. I was just like, I

(26:02):
can't imagine a single person typing anything to you ever,
Oh they have, I I wrote, So, I recently wrote
a video on YouTube that is like my thesis on
why I think Asoka is the greatest Jedi of all time.
Least I saw that it was for fandom, right, we
we're gonna will include that in the show notes so
people can watch it. Awesome, Yeah, it was for fandom.
It was part of their like ways of like finding

(26:24):
things to put out when the quarantine started happening. Um,
it was like of a certain point of view, and
it's it's my my argument that I think Asoka stands
for what is the best of the Jedi and so,
like the title was very click baity, like why Aska
is the best Jedi of all time? Which is which
is like that's a title, it's a headline. The amount
of people who responded to it going a Soca is

(26:46):
no Jedi because there's one line in I Am no Jedi,
and I'm like, it's in the video. I addressed it.
It's it's in there, it's part of it. Like, but
then they have to actually watch and read and they're
not doing that. Frustrating, so frustrating because I would agree
with you that despite the fact that she's not part
of the Jedi Order. She is a Jedi. We see

(27:07):
uphold the principles of the Jedi Order to the most
I mean mostically one can be. As a close second,
I was gonna say, also, like it's in the history
of when we look at all the marvel In DC superheroes,
I'm sure they've always all of them have said like
I'm not a hero, and it's like you are, though,
like everybody considers you a hero. So you know that's
like just that's just good writing. We have to take

(27:28):
a really quick break, but then we're going to hop
more into some of her best battles right after this
and we are back. Um So, Riley, what were some
of your main points I guess in the video that

(27:51):
you did for fandom. The big thing about it was like,
like Joel mentioned them a moment ago a Soca leaves
the Jedi Order because they let her down at the
end of Clone Wars, and the thing is Clone Wars
as an entire series really does like underscore how the
Jedi have failed to look up to their own promise
leading up through Revenge of the Sith. And so my
video was basically that through her actions and through like

(28:15):
her determination to like be a part of the universe
and to try to like make the universe better, a
Soca upholds the ideals of being a Jedi better than
the actual Jedi do at that point, and that for her, like,
I actually think that part of what like the Jedi
always teach this doctrine of non attachment, which I could
do a whole other episode on how I think that's

(28:36):
completely flawed and how the best Jedi in Star Wars
stories are very attached to people, um, but I think
that like one thing the Jedi are too attached to
is the idea of the Jedi, the name we are
the Jedi. We stand for this to where they're not
actually living up to their own ideals anymore because they're
too attached to their organization and their name, whereas a

(28:58):
Soca then steps outside eight of that and instead just
lives the life of what a Jedi should be. And
that's why my argument is that she's a better Jedi
than all the because even Obi Wan and I say
this in the video, Obi Wan, Yoda, and Luke, who
were like three of like what we're told are the
best Jedi in Star Wars, all three of them. When
they make these great failures, they go hide away and

(29:19):
they don't try to like fix things. Like Asca literally
helps start the Rebel Alliance. She becomes the intelligence officer
of the Rebel Alliance, and like she were, actively works
to fight against the Empire, and she actively works to
continue to make the universe better. And we're going to
include even more of that. I still can't imagine people
arguing with you about this, but I can't. I can.

(29:42):
I probably I probably Joe, and I probably slightly mispronounced
the name of her race earlier, and that's what we're
going to get a thing on her or I know,
don't paint well enough. Fans better not you know how
You know what I'm saying about Asoka too, is that
not only is she a major fee male character, but
she's really one of the first major alien characters besides

(30:04):
Yoda that we get like as like a lead character
in so much of Star Wars is humans or maybe
Troy's and so to have like an alien character, it's
like really fun to wash. Yeah. I was also going
to say not to make this uh spiritual or political
or anything, but that's how you know, often the Jedi
gets compared to Christianity or whatever. There's so many conversations

(30:24):
about religion and like, you're so right about it being
the title versus like what it actually means, which I
could do a whole thesis on as somebody that went
to Catholic school for multiple years. It's really funny whenever
people come at me and I'm like, I had to
study the Bible, Like my mom says rosaries every day.
You understand how long it takes to do a rosary.

(30:46):
Trust me, I am very familiar with the religion of
my people. Um anyways, which I could critique for hours
on end. Uh So her her her battles, I'm really
fascinated to what I know. We kind of happed in
on that, But what to you would you recommend if
people were like trying to look up Some of her
best fight scenes are the ones that I love the most.

(31:07):
I got to for me that like, once you've gotten
into them. That the two best fight scenes for her
are in the four part finale series of the Clone Wars.
She has a life favorite battle with Darth Maul that
is one of the absolute best light favor battles in
the history of Star Wars, and then The other one
that is amazing is in there's a two part Rebels

(31:29):
season two finale called Twilight of the Apprentice, and she
has a life favor of battle with with Darth Vader
Slash Anakin that is emotionally and just visually just amazing.
And it's that's actually where her iconic I Am no
Jedi lion comes from. And also want to point out
that immediately after he says I Am no Jedi, she

(31:49):
then acts with compassion and trying to save someone from
themselves like a good Jedi would do. So Yeah, that
line has said so much out of um hurt and
frustration and betrayal and fear of what's about to happen,
almost more than than her actual relationship to the Jedi. Uh.

(32:11):
My favorite moments. You pick such great battles. I'm gonna
pick some great emotional moments. Um, I really enjoy Uh.
Fans of this show have probably heard me talk much
about the trilogy of Mortists. It is maybe my favorite
thing about Star Wars. Ever, it is the entirety of
the Star Wars cannon distill in the three perfect episodes
from Clone Wars. It is an amazing analysis of what

(32:32):
is it to be light and dark and balanced quotal
quote and not picking aside, letting craziness reign. Uh. It's
so good. In that series, Ahsoka has to struggle against
the dark, literally the dark side, the force of it,
not an individual um. When she's consumed by it, she's
risen like Jesus. And for me, this place is Asoka

(32:52):
very much at the center of the story. And it's
one of the things I love most about Asoka is
because we don't have her entire history. She's a flexible character.
We don't know how she impacted everyone. We don't know
everyone who she's interacted with, but we do know that
she's stringically tied to Um Anakin Skywalker, and we know
Anakin Skywalker basically hangs in the full crumb of balance.

(33:13):
I think she is his alternate. People try to say
that it's only one. That can't be he's his like
brother figure. Can't be Yoda, that's like his grandfather big here.
It can't be his son that's his actual son. There
isn't like an actual balance there. But it could be
a Soca, the person he taught, this person who mastered
what he taught before he could um. And I think
you get a lot of set up there that I'm

(33:34):
really hoping is sort of um pushed further in future series.
I'm also a big fan uh Luminar and Dali has
a Padawan. Luminar and Vali before Aska was my favorite
female Jedi. She hung on the background, she looks super cool.
She was played by a black woman. I was like,
I'm here for it. Her Padawan and Asoka have two
major Canada adventures. I can't recall the episode numbers right now.

(33:56):
I'll drop them in the show notes so that I
can check it out. But their relationship and they're sort
of confrontation of what it means to be a Jedi
and what the Jedi Order stands for really turned me
onto what it is to be a great Jedi, what
it is to be a force whielder, And those are
the characters I really love. If you've seen the Rebels,

(34:16):
Ben do with a Force whielder, He's one of my
favorite characters of all time. I love these characters who
are like, I'm not going to follow the rules, but
I still want to be a good person, um where
I want to take down this institution that no longer
supports us. I think those are sort of vital conversations
that started in the comic books and the animated shows
that are slowly inking their way into the movies, and

(34:36):
those can being my favorite parts of Star Wars. If
we're gonna talk about emotional arcs not just battles, I
think that two of the big ones are also there's arc.
It's also the introduction of Sage Era to the Star Wars,
but it's the Oneran Rebellion arc. So you get a
very young Sagarrera very not force whiteker Sa but when

(34:59):
he sa with normal breaths, but uh, it is it
is the early building blocks of when Ahsoka like starts
to you can you can see where she becomes someone
who would be a founding member of the rebel alliance.
Like you can see basically the the Onderon like the
like the the Separatists are kind of doing like a

(35:20):
proxy takeover of Onderan, and the Jedi cannot get involved
because of treaties and stuff like that, but they leave
Aska there to train these local rebels, these like insurgents
to fight against this like takeover, and they're like they're like,
you can't get involved, you can't get involved, you can
only train them. But like as they get more and
more deep into it, like she's on her own there

(35:41):
and she's just like I can't just sit back and
watch these people fight and die and not help them.
And she gets involved in the battle and she like
jumps in and helps them out, and it's really important
like moment for her. And then there's also this art
I think that the the arc that has her leave
the Jedi without ailing too much, as this Jedi Temple
bombing arc, that is a fantastic arc as well. And

(36:04):
but I think another really good one is there's a
There's a There's a Believe it's a two part story
where she gets captured and you find out there's like
this planet where these bounty hunters are essentially hunting young
Jedi padawan and they've been separated from their masters, some
of them for years, and they're like stranded there and

(36:26):
unable to fend for themselves, and Asoka essentially steps up
and helps them learn how to fight back and like
free themselves of this capture. And honestly, to this day,
I'm angry that that episode does not end with Asoka
becoming a Jedi Knight, because like, if there's anything that
can be considered her trials to be a knight. She
never gets made a knight in the series, Like she

(36:47):
she goes through multiple trials that like would should be
considered a trial to become a Jedi Knight, but they
never actually give her knighthood, like she's still typically a
pad of one. When she leaves the Order, it's offered
to her as a like an apology, almost like, oh, oh,
now we see this was your path all And it's
so I think badass, because I feel like when people

(37:09):
can't um acknowledge you until after they've made horrendous mistakes,
not one, but many, it's time to walk away, and
it's it's sort of it's so offensive how that title
has offered her after she's been literally a general in
the war, to the point where in the season seven
she winds up getting her own battalion, Like it's crazy,

(37:30):
how much, uh the Jedi Order overlooked her. But I
think also fits with what we know about the Jedi
Order and who's sort of been lifted up as the
Jedi heroes are Cannon. I love that. I love that commentary.
I love that there's a real there's a real shade
throwing moment in the last arc of Clone Wars where

(37:51):
she's talking to Mace Window and she's like it's like
they're they're still talking to her, like, oh, welcome back
to the Jedi, and she's like, don here as a citizen.
And then when like something happens that like a noise him,
he goes, this is not for you, citizen, and he's
just like so shady, and it's like so weird to
hear Window, like it all testy like that, but it
works so well. Um, we're gonna take another quick break
and then we're going to actually talk about the future

(38:14):
of a Soca right after this and we are back. Okay,
So I want to know about tell the listeners about Fulcrum,
like what we need to know? Do you want to
start with this one? Yeah? I can, Okay. So Star
Wars Rebels, which is the second animate technically the third,

(38:37):
but the second Cannonites animated series Um features a young
Ezra Richer. It's after Order sixty six. Uh. He is
basically I call him Star Wars Aladdin because that's essentially
what he is. He's like a street rag. He can't play.
His parents are political prisoners. He gets picked up by
a Jedi and his like small flight crew and taking

(38:58):
on adventures. And as their adventuring, they start getting all
of these great like little messages and hints about like
where to go, like uncovered prisoners here, this planet is
being um subjugated by the Empire. Go look into that
from this person named Fulcrum, this mysterious voice from beyond. Uh.
And then at the end of season one is revealed

(39:19):
to be a Soca, And I cried because that is
the first recurring role. That's the first time we see
a Soca. After she leaves Um, so basically, Uh, we
know a little bit from her book. Asca goes off
to other planets, she makes her own lightsaber, she's doing
her little warrior thing, and then she sort of starts
coming into Phoenix Squadron. And the idea of it is
like before there is a rebel army, there's Phoenix Squadron.

(39:39):
It's a bunch of despit people who are like, we're
not going to stand for this tyranny, and they start
speaking up for themselves. It's great because she's a general
and she knows how to fight. She also understands the
Empire and their actions and where they're going, and she
becomes basically an undercover agent mercenary if you will. She
fights here and they're mostly she's organizing and informing using
her spy skills. And there's am in the book where

(40:01):
she because like bail Organa when he's like putting the
Rebel Alliance together, like finds her and like recruits her,
and like he's asking her like what she wants to do,
and she like she basically says, like, Hey, all these
things happened in in this time period because no one
was putting it all together and contacting each other and
like organizing it. So I want to be the one

(40:21):
to do that for you. And that's when she becomes
the fulcrum of the organization, so she said, she essentially
becomes the head of intelligence for the Rebel Alliance. And
actually they have talked about how in the upcoming Cassian
Indoor Disney Plus series that they're working on, like they're
they're basically, uh, I think that they've they've already said
that Cassie is essentially going to be kind of slightly

(40:44):
reckoned into having been a fulcrum agent. That's what he's
doing in Rogue one, is he's working as a Fulcrum
agent and yeah, So basically because in Rebels, like the
first folk Rum we meet is is Ahsoka, like she's
revealed the be Asoca, but then other people over the
course of the series is then start referring to themselves
as stroke like another character becomes the next folk Rum,
and so it's basically just like a handle for a spy,

(41:07):
which makes her like a very interesting character, highly valuable.
He would suspect to the empire um one of the
few people who retains the knowledge of the Jedi. We
see that as that religion and forces sort of stomped
out rather quickly if you take a look at Rogue one,
she's one of the few people who retains that knowledge,
isn't able to um dispense it to people, and you

(41:30):
have to start wondering, like what has Asoka been up to,
like and like where does her story end? Is? We
don't know. We don't know whenn Asoka dies, Like, so
there's all the open ended like theory of like maybe
was she ever talking to Luke. We know she talked
to Leia. We've got lots of stories with her and
Leah because she was working with bail Organa. That's who
adopts Leia um, I'm so excited to see what she's doing.

(41:53):
I imagine, much like her teachers before her, that she
if she dies, she's dying on the battle few Old.
I don't see her ever like taking up a partner
and leaving a peaceful life. I think she's about this
war and being in the streets until it's resolved. I
don't know the average lifespan of for people, but I
think it's longer than a human life, so we could
have her around quite some time. Yeah, and there is

(42:16):
uh Filoni has said this does not mean that she
is dead, but her voice is one of the voices
that Ray hears call out to her on excoll when
she reaches out to the Force. And it's really interesting
because as a character who has said that she is
not a Jedi, she is she is voicing herself as
one of the one of the Jedi, like when she's

(42:36):
one of the Jedi who reaches out to Ray on
Exit Goll. So there is definitely an implication that perhaps
somewhere in between the end of Rebels and when Rise
the Skywalker happens, she has become a new Jedi herself,
or she has kind of re embraced her Jedi nature. Well,
there's a tip off to that in Rebels. She goes
into a Jedi temple um with Ezra and his master
and they're sort of like meditating, and if you know

(42:59):
anything about the town poles, like sometimes they just reveal
that there are like three stories beneath it with other
additional information. Uh, people can come to you and sort
of talk to you. Yoda contacts her. It's brief, it's
a second. She's in doubt, she doesn't feel like she
should be there, but she's like, I'll just I meditate
what you guys, go do your thing. And then Yoda
appears to her and it's sort of this like que
signal of like there's still there's still more for you

(43:20):
to do within the Jedi order. And I love that
you said like you mentioned that because it totally got
me thinking, well, we know Yoda can project when he's alive.
We know that he can just send his voice out
to individuals. So did she reach a Yoda level of
like you know, status that she become like a grandmaster
almost of the Jedi teachings, that would be that time,

(43:42):
I mean, And then also without spoiling too much, there
is a weird thing that happens with her with the
timeline at the end of Rebels, but the last shot
we see of her on Rebels is set that there's
like Rebels has this short epilogu that is set after
the Battle of Endor, and it's kind of like telling

(44:04):
you what's happened, like what the what the characters that
you can follow have been up to since the course
of the original trilogy basically, And she meets up with
one of the other characters and they are heading off
into like the like beyond the outer rim and parts
back into that bright light very like Cowboy off into

(44:27):
the sunset. But she has on a white robe and
she also has an owl, which going back to the
Mortist arc that I was talking about earlier, there's and
she also has used the name Oshla as her like
nickname and like as like an alias. And Oshla is
actually like a term in Star Wars to mean the
light side of the forest, like it's the lights, it's

(44:48):
the So it's it's interesting that like there's like this
there's this implication and like some fan theories that a Soca,
maybe because of what happened on Mortis, has somehow become
like almost like an emissary for the Light Side of
the Forest. You guys, if you have not watched the
trilogy of Mortis, there's never a wrong time to start that,

(45:08):
you really know, Like, you don't have to watch any
of the other Clone Wars, the Great Clone ward Is.
Almost all their episodes come in threes, so if you
just pick up at the start of a trilogy, you
can watch an hour and a half of like consolidated
storyline and not feel lost. It's that's the only kind
of linear storytelling they do. And yeah, it's just that's
the sculpture on the door. That's the Star Wars tattoo.

(45:31):
I wa is the father, the son, and the daughter,
like it's Mortis is everything to me, and the things
that happened to us Oka there, I really do think
will inform her storyline going forward. Yeah, we know she's
gonna we we we've almost all but confirmed that she's
gonna be on The Mandalorian season two. And then there's
also been talk of this mysterious secret other Dave Feloni

(45:51):
animated project that is possibly like a third to follow
Clone Wars and Rebels, because there is a there's a
Resistance series, but Resistance is more of a kids like
it's kind of a smaller theme. And that's right, that's
I think I think, and I think it ended this
year are Ya. But that's the one that I haven't
watched because I've heard it's it's targeting way younger than me,

(46:12):
and I haven't had an interest in it. But um,
Rebels and well, Rebels and Clone Wars are so interesting because,
like you said, a second ago like Clone Wars is
all these like almost like loosely connected cereals and like
you have, there's no like main character to Clone Wars.
There are some episodes that are about and again, some
that are about Asoka, some that are about some of
the Clones, some that aresodes pad May gets an amazing

(46:35):
political intrigue arc that is the person in this series,
Oh my god. But then Rebels is a much more
closely contained ensemble drama of like this one group of
Rebels like going, it's like a five season arc with
these same close characters. As is very much the lead
of the show, like You've got You've got you know

(46:56):
Canan As like You're you're kind of more like mentor
type character. You've got Harrison Doula as your amazing pilot,
so like there's a whole crew that you followed the
whole time, so it's a little bit more of a
linear arc. And then so we don't know what this
next one is going to be. There's like talk that
like the new series might be focused on Sabine and
Ahsoka and whatever they were doing off in the wilderness.

(47:16):
So like, you know, I'm I'm excited to see Ahska
have an appearance on Mandalorian. I'm like, I was really
excited that she had a voice in Rise of Skywalker
because I do like this like establishment of firmly putting
her in actual Star Wars canon. But I also, for me,
like Asca will always be an animated series character, and

(47:37):
that's not like I say that in that I don't
think that lessens her anyway, And I don't like this
idea that she has to be played in live action
to give her some sort of legitimacy. I think that
the the animated series of Star Wars, Clone Wars and
Rebels are some of the best Star Wars selling storytelling
that's out there. And so for me, yeah, and so

(47:57):
I just I love that Asoka has always started to
get this following, and there's like more mainstream popularity. She's
still a very niche character than the Star Wars fan.
A lot of people don't know she exists, don't know
who she is, but we're really starting to get somewhere
with her. Like this year, Disney put out a Soca
Mickey Mouse ears on Star Wars Day and they sold
out within seconds, Like people I I had people who

(48:19):
were in the waiting room on the Disney website trying
to buy those ears for like three hours and they
were already sold out, like within seconds of them being launched.
So yeah, I would say yeah. As someone that grew
up with the with live action Star Wars, I've never
actually sat down and watched any of their animated series.
And I think it was because it felt like something

(48:39):
which I think a lot of people say about anime
is when it starts getting going, you almost get overwhelmed
that everyone is just like, you know, there's so much
to cover, but like y'all are saying, it's worth it
um to go back and watch. Especially, I think because
she is I hope continues to be a huge character,
gets more recognition, more representation on a lot of these shows,

(49:02):
and I've been seeing like video like yours, Riley, but
the other ones too of people like, really, this is
like their favorite Star Wars character. And so I think
for even Star Wars fans that have consumed all of
Star Wars media and like me who have only watched
live action, um to come back and say this is

(49:22):
the character I resonate with the most is huge, And
like you're saying, they're really doing a good job for
people to resonate in such a way that this character
has impacted them. Yeah, I think she just really personifies
the the tragedy and the inevitable inevitability of what's happening
in the Clone Wars series. I think there's like this

(49:44):
over there's this overall arc to that show of like
inevitable loss because you know what's going to happen, Like
that show exists in between Attack of the Clothes Revenge
of the Stiff, and you know, you know where it's
going to end, and so there's just this like noble

(50:05):
but faded too to fail vibe to it. And I
think that, like, it's so fascinating that she actually did
survive that series and go on, because I think a
lot of people and that show began just assume that
she was going to die before it was over because
she doesn't exist in Rention the Sithe, and so it's like, well,
where is this character and why isn't she there? So
the fact that they actually found a way to explain

(50:29):
how she survives that narrative, why she's not like a
prevalent member of other Star Wars narratives that existed, but
then also be able to like turn her into this
character of like hope and prevailing goodness in the galaxy because,
like I pushed back on the definition of her as
a great Jedi, I think she is very very much
a Jedi, and she's a light Jedi, and like I,

(50:50):
I don't think she's neutral look gray at all. I
think she's very like focused on the life sent be force,
and like I think that she is an example of
how within Star Wars you can still be true to
the George Lucas dichotomy of good and evil in this
kind of like exaggerated way that Star Wars allows it
to exist while still having a character that is full

(51:11):
of nuance and character depth and energy. And that is
I think why I connect with her so much, because
she's just this great example of how the Chips can
continually get stacked against you, and you still can be
hopeful and like fight against like what you know is
wrong in the universe. I actually, really you've definitely changed
my mind on that because I would have previously described

(51:32):
her as a great Jedi, but I think she's probably
more Jedi than the Jedi organization as it is, especially
when she leaves and so so Yeah, even though even
though she has a character that turned me onto like
what is a good great Jedi? And who are these
people who are are sort of calling out uh their
culture as it is, she's kind of upholding those tenants
and we evolves beyond that, and I'm so enthralled with

(51:55):
not just her as a character, but like it's somebody
who really values in a pre Shades like mentormentee relationships
and this idea of like who do you trust with
your future and how long do you trust that? And
then what does it mean to then turn around and
become a mentor at yourself? Like these are all sort
of questions that she's grappling with. And I think it's

(52:15):
so interesting how they ended the Colne War series. I
have a theory that Anakin now Darth Vader's new lightsaber
because we know he loses this because Luke has it. Later,
uh is Asoka's old lightsaber that's just been remodeled. He
finds it in the space where he believes she has died.
It's the one thing he holds onto from his past life.

(52:35):
He lets everything go, but he homes onto a soga
and then rebels really dives into that. It is such
a juicy and delicious relationship. It really elevates the character
of Anakin, and I think to include a secondary character
that makes the character the guy we started off with
so much more nuanced and rich and intriguing is a
feat in writing, especially as we learn what it means

(52:56):
to have these like large, expansive sagas um. She's an
incredible ad and I God, I want so much more
for her, Like not not the animation is small, but
that there's so many more directions to go with this
character and so many writers interested in writing her. I
think she's maybe the best character in Star Wars as
far as like trying to figure out her path and

(53:18):
how she's impacted so many of our favorite characters. I
see a bright future for her, and I hope that
is filled. It's interesting because um. I also have a
theory about Soca's lightsabers, but mine's a little bit in
conflict with yours. But um, and there's a lot. This
is also based on having read the there's a there's
a Darth Vader comics series that's set like right after

(53:39):
a vent of the Stiff and onward, which is really good.
But Vader ends up being in charge of the inquisitorius
like he's the one who helps train them to fight.
And it was actually a really cool fan video that
I saw online that explains why the way he trained
them to fight is ultimately why Asoka was able to
defeat the brother in battle that she kills to get
her lightsabers back. And my because basically it's that he

(54:03):
doesn't teach in any defensive stances, and so she's able
to get through because it's all offensive, and she's able
to get through that because my theory is that the
crystals that she takes from that inquisitor are her own
crystals back and that she got them from Vader when
he was training them. Riley isn't the best conversation ever.
I know we have to lying down, but I can

(54:24):
literally talking about this forever. We do they'll have to
have you all back together again, especially as we look
at more for future is that comes out talk about
Astage Ventress. Come on, let's have another hour about that.
I did want to stay with you all, being like, um,
how are they going to explain you know, her not
being here this you know, if they can do that

(54:44):
with Wonder Woman and be like, why did she peace
out for four decades, we could figure it out. Well.
My big thing with Star Wars in general, whenever someone's like, well,
why was this character not there? Like even like with
Rogue one, they're like, oh, they had to die because otherwise,
why weren't they there at Indoor? And like maybe they
word it was like a thousand ships in the sky there.
Maybe that crew was on one of those ships. The
rebellion wasn't fighting every battle in the same spot, maybe

(55:07):
out of rim doing another mission always was happening. That's
so easy to explain away characters in a galaxy. Yeah. Absolutely,
It's always about the point of view, right, because we
see these thousands, you know, or at least hundreds of
of even in this last um film, and it's like
all of those, all those characters that are battling even
the ones that end up losing their life. It was like,

(55:28):
what was their point of view that day? Because we're
only seeing the point of view of the main you know,
skywalkers and their friends, but we're not seeing everybody's point
of view at all times. There are so many other
people involved. That's a good battle to bring up because
the ghosts from Rebels is one of the ships in
the battle. At the end of bringing it all back,
we do have to wrap up. Riley, thank you so

(55:51):
much for joining us. Where can everyone catch you? You
can find me on Twitter at Riley j Silverman and
I do a lot of writing for Nurice that I
actually want to say because you have me all last
time talking about doctor who you can find on Nurice.
I last week got to interview three of the actors
who played the doctor at the same time. I got
to interview David Tendant, Jody Whittaker and Matt Smith at

(56:12):
the exact same time. And that video is up on
the site, so you can check that out. No one
who deserves it more we we would have been. We
would have written very strong emails if it wasn't um
what about you Joel? Oh? Yeah, you guys can find
me all over the internet at Joel Monique, It's j

(56:33):
O E L L E M O N I q
u E. I'm producing and not writing right now, which
is frustrating. I'll hopefully be doing more writing soon, but
I'm gonna check me out on shows. Check out ca
Joe Golden's Creature feature on the I Heart Network, where
she breaks down human behavior and animals. It's the funniest
show I swear um Also Fake Doctor's Real Friends with

(56:54):
Zack Grapp and Donald Faces on where we recap episodes
of Scrubs. Uh yeah, and then keep tuning in here
to Nerdice. I'll be around. I am at Miss Danny
Fernandez and all the things. Thank you to our engineer
Zach McKeever who puts up with us. Uh and, like
we always say, stay nerdy.