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March 11, 2020 38 mins

Guided by the stories of Sonja Swanson, Seoyung Chung of Bburi Kitchen and Ji Hye Kim of Ms Kim restaurant, this episode explores ancient Korean recipes and how they are taking on modern adaptations. Swanson came to Korea to learn about her cultural heritage, and a one-year stay became a seven-year journey. Together, Swanson and Seoyung are using food to tell a story about the culinary history of Korea, through adaptations of ancient recipes.

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Episode Transcript

Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
M yung Yang is an ancient theory of yin and
yang and says that the five elements earth, wind, fire, wood, metal,
and water make up the universe. Korean food revolves around

(00:24):
this concept, and on the Korean table, garnishes, accompaniments, and
dishes with five colors represent each of these five elements,
and traditional Korean cooking food is medicine, and by balancing
the elements and what we are consuming, we create balance

(00:45):
and wellness in the body. No other dish evokes and
represents this theory as strongly as beebum bob. Bee bum
bob literally means mixed rice and though there's no particular recipe,
it is a sizzling rice bowl that is topped with

(01:07):
colorful vegetable garnishes and a fried egg. Yeah, Bibimpa means
is mixed to rice with the beset of ball. And
we used a storm pot and we hit the pot
and it sisily. We make the sizzling storm pot b
and we meet soon. Mainly, my career name is a
sun me Lee and my restaurant's name is a chong

(01:30):
Ju restaurant. And joan Ju is one of the city
in Korea is very famous for the bibbiing bob, and
we are specialized in the bibby pub that's how we
got the name from choon Ju. Yeah Soon Me is
a second generation owner of Jianju restaurant that has been
specializing in serving bibbon bob for twenty two years. A

(01:54):
bowl of bibbing bob at john Ju balances the five
elements through color, flavor, and texture. White strands of crispy
day coon radish on a bed of rice, rich yellow
and eggs, and crunchy raw bean sprouts, red in the

(02:15):
thinly sliced carrots and spicy hot Korean chili paste go
to Jong. These warm colors full of yang are balanced
in a bowl of beeping Bop with cool Yan colors
like the blue and the black of inky mushrooms, the
deep forest green of dried seaweed, and the gentle char

(02:39):
from barbecued meats or seafoods. Actually, this restaurant is was
owned by my father and mother twenty two years ago,
and my father is from Janju, is he is a hometown.
So he got the recipe from his best friends who

(03:01):
had a very very famous beeping By restaurant in Chongju.
So he studied the restaurant, but since my mom passed
away the two thousand and five, I started to have
an ownership from there. So it's been like more than
fifteen years. And I really love cooking and I like

(03:22):
to see people eating my food and make them happy.
That's why I have still the owner of a Chouanju
restaurant along with Bimbob. Of today, we are served almost
a dozen small plates called ban chon. Like many East
Asian cultures, cream food does not follow a course by

(03:42):
course sequence. Rather, it's a shared meal where all the
dishes are served at the same time. Usually, this means
that most of the space on the table is occupied
by a full spread of dozens of dishes, ranging from
larger mains like the aforementioned people up to smaller pickled
side dishes like the bonchon. The number of dishes usually

(04:06):
follows a pattern three, five, seven, nine, and twelve dish
table settings according to the number of side dishes today

(04:28):
on point of origin. We're exploring Korea's ancient culinary traditions
and their modern adaptations. Our first guest, Gee Hey Kim,
is the chef and partner at MS Kim's restaurant in
Arbor Michigan where she's making a both regional and also
a revival kind of Korean cuisine of her youth and

(04:50):
her ancestry. Can you tell us some formative food memories
from growing up in Soul? One of them is my
mother making Napa cabbage kimchi during the fall, and remember

(05:12):
it being very communal. We lived in an area where
we had a lot of neighborhood woman and and a
lot of relatives, and they will gather together, and I
remember their conversations like should we have a hundreds of
types of cabbage? At the time, I think I was
like seven years old, So what looked to a seven
year old like mountains and mountains of Napa cabbage just

(05:35):
being brind with like older favored neighborhood women and aunties,
and so that that was very memorable. Kimchi is a
staple in Korean cuisine as a famous traditional side dish

(05:56):
made from salted and fermented vegetables like Korean radish or
Napa cabbage, with the addition of a varying selection of
seasonings like go to garu, spring onions, garlic, ginger, et cetera.
For gh kim the Napa cabbage her mother made is
the one that she considers to be the gold standard.

(06:18):
Because when you grow up with a mother who cooks
everything from scratch, you you tend to think that that's
all you need to know about clean food. Deep got
it right, you Your mom's fabulous. Everything is made from scratch.
But it's only reasonly that I realized that a lot
of food that she was cooking was actually regional cooking
from County Providence to where her family is from. That's

(06:41):
the central part of Crea. So compared to the southern
more southern Providence, the County Providence recipeople go through a
balance and it's not as salty or as spicy as
say like La Providence or kun Kuntsung Providence, uh known
for more saltiness and more heavier use of fermented sea food.

(07:05):
So then I realized that all the food that I
was eating was actually not necessarily standard, but like a
one part of many kinds of regional cooking in Korea.
So when I decided to go into the kitchen and
become a cook, I started approaching it kind of like
a study subject, because I can be a little nerdy,

(07:26):
and because my mom was very protective of her own recipes,
and number two, she didn't think that I should be
in the kitchen, so she wasn't very upfront with her
own knowledge. Um, So what I did was that I
started reading books. I just started collecting all the books.
And then what really cut my attention was these old

(07:48):
cook books from like eighteenth century, nineteenth century, seventeenth century.
I think the oldest one goes all the way to
like sixteenth century. A lot of it refers to the
preservation techniques and how to make alcohol out of cranes
and things like that, and that was just amazing discovery.
And then I got really hooked because it was breaking

(08:11):
a lot of my own preconceived notion of what clean
food is. And by going more in depth into ancine
cooking and trying to understand the story uh the evolution
of clean cooking, it almost made me feel more free.

(08:33):
So one example would be that I have seen American
customers come in and tell me that Creans do not
use soatro, but that's not true. And then I have
clean American customers come in and say that there is
no cheese and clean coatina. That's also not true because
there's a very very old cheese recipe and it sounds

(08:55):
exactly like ricotta to me. Like you take the milk
and then you eas meat like ocean water, it says,
and then you curdle it over the over the heat.
And if it doesn't curdle very well, then you can
throw in a little vinegar or a little bacco leaf,
which is a fermented rice wine. And it takes different

(09:15):
than we catta because we're using different acid, but the
process itself is almost identical. And then I found recipes
that look like a friend chep cheese, like cured hymns,
and so it's just like pretty amazing to see where
the Clear people has been eating, like what they have

(09:36):
been eating fews and cheese ago and what they're eating
now and how that became. Yeah, the use of beat
doesn't come into play until too was on kingdom and

(09:59):
that lastic punk on jod years, so a pot of
five hundred, six hundred years ago. Clear was a Buddhist kingdom,
so consumption of meat was fairly small, so a lot
of use of different vegetables was more more prolific. And

(10:19):
I think as a chef it's more interesting because how
do you how do you preserve and make things tasty
when you don't have a lot of meat products, especially
if you're in the mountain area and your Buddhist what
do you do? So what I see is like not
only agriculture, but foraging. So food is medicine, everything stable,

(10:41):
if it's not gonna tell you accidible um and um
like many many different grains. So very recently running a restaurant,
you hear a lot of like celia disease or altoly immune,
or like people just avoiding wheat. When I see clean
in they're really versatile at using different grains and different

(11:03):
grain flour. You know, multi grain mice is an obvious one.
But you can also make noodles not just out of wheat,
And there's long history of making like potato noodles or
like different types of noodles that like those dishes are
fully formed, the developed and just as tasty as like

(11:24):
wheat dishes. So when you think about the story broadly
speaking of Korean cuisine, what are some some highlights or
some milestones in that history. You don't really see youth
of chili peppers. I mean there's stories like there's some
beeries out there that it came from Latin America in

(11:46):
the seventeenth century, etcetera, etcetera. If you look at the
coup books, you don't see it probably big pictured until
like late eighteenth century. And but when it comes in
like seeing people love that and then they start adding
to kimchi to give. If she didn't look like as
fiery and red as it does today, it was more
of like more akin to sower crowd in a sense

(12:08):
that it had some Arabatic but it was pretty much
a salt secure of a vegetable preservation. And then once
the chili flakes comes in that that becomes like we
really embrace it and then really take it on, and
then now we the clean foods have a reputation of
like being spicy. Gochu which means pepper and Korean is

(12:33):
very subtle with sweet instituacy notes. It's sort of tangy,
but not really hot. Put gochu is the name when
the peppers are young, green and used similar to fresh
bell peppers. Hongo chu is what the peppers are called
when they are red and ready to be harvested and
dried for gochu garu or red chili powder, more so

(12:57):
than spice. The change that gy c is in modern
Korean cuisine is the addition of sugar, but that's a
very very recent development. And I would say another development
is the import of like black pepper and sugar. Sugar
and black pepper, like very very like simple kitchen staple,

(13:19):
but it's not around until very recently before we were
using high and actually not a lot of sweetness at
all where But I do notice that there's very little
sugar in ancient cookbooks. Sweeteners used very sparsely, and it's
like a tablespoonful of honey for entire part of something.
And my only guess, and this is just a guess,

(13:41):
would be that, like you see a lot of changes
to Crean cooking with making like nineteen fifties, with the
modernization in Korean War, US trips come in. That's when
you see like more use of dairy and butter and cheese,
which is now quite popular in Crea. And I'm wondering
if that would be the point. It's only like after

(14:03):
the nineteen thirties cookbooks that I start seeing like about
proportions of sugars going in and then the proliferation of
a strong culture. I think that also kind of like
pushes more use of sugar, but also more use of salt,
and more use of MSG and more use of spaces. Yeah,
just more and more and more. And I think that

(14:24):
time period that you're speaking to kind of like mid
twentieth century, even in the States, where we start to
see the proliferation of grocery stores and a lot more
consolidation of the food chain and supply as people are
now being encouraged to, you know, eat food from packages

(14:48):
and boxes as a means of convenience. So it's the
commodity tion of food. Yeah, you see the United States
to around the same time, that's right. Yeah, so that
it seems to check out. And I think, you know,
the same thing is happening in lots of places around
the world for the same reason. And you know, up
until like late career was in Clues, we were known

(15:12):
as the hermit Kingdom. It was not a whole lot
of things coming in from like West. Definitely mean a
lot of trades were with China and Japan a har

(15:54):
mm hmm. The swift labor because a long time ago,
we didn't have much sugar in our food. But these
days the young generation they want more like impact on
their palate. So our food is getting spicier and to
make get balanced. Then they need more sweet flavor. So

(16:20):
the true spicy flavor from our ancestor is from from
the chili powder or chili paste. It's the spiciness. It
was very heavy and then it comes, you know, very slowly.
But these days, the spiciness of Korean food it comes

(16:40):
very rapid because they are using you know, capsize and salts.
They take out on the the spiciness from the chilies,
and then they make really hot spicy sauce. So to
kill the spiciness, you know, they use abundant amount of sugar,
you know, or like a cone syrup. But the true

(17:04):
sweetness of our cuisine comes from like rice zerrup, which
needs to spend a long time to make it, rather
than like in a very easy product like a consuup things. Yeah,
so it's changing a lot. When I was young. That's

(17:27):
a young Jong who is the co founder of Bury
Kitchen Bori and Korean means route through their website Bury Kitchen,
which is young and her co founder Sonja, who you
will hear from later in the episode, share what they
learned and talking to farmers, fishers, and vendors about the
history of Korean ingredients. Her explanation of modern adaptations of

(17:53):
Korean cuisine all can be explained in the evolution of taste.
A global increased in a taste for sugar has also
meant that those traditional recipes like the ones that g
He researched extensively before opening Miss Kims, are now harder
to find. Way, but you pronounced it right, And do

(18:15):
you have memories from your childhood of this cuisine before
it became so sweet and spicy? Yeah? Of course when
I was young, my mom's food where my grandma's food.
It wasn't sweet. It was a savory rather than spicy
and sweet. But these days the Korean food is described

(18:39):
as mostly spicy food or you know, spicy and sweet food.
Just wondering for people who aren't familiar with Korean food,
what are what are some dishes or ingredients or some
characteristics of the of the diet that really are typical
in Korean food. People usually they started with like prugogi

(19:03):
or tap te or kim tie, those kinds of recipes, right,
but also something like you know, tap te and prugogi
will be away sweeter at the restaurant and saltier, and
if you go to someone's house in Korea, you will
find out, you know, the prugo will be pretty blend,

(19:27):
and you will be pretty surprised, you know, with the
difference of the flavor difference. And obviously you know, fermentation
plays such a central role in Korean food, and most
notably in kim chi. Korean cuisine has a long and

(19:51):
rich history of fermentation which dates back thousands of years.
It's part of what makes the food distinctly Korean and
also incredibly delicious. These recipes range from light and tangy
to deep and complex. I think it's the flavor that
you can remember from even your mother's womb for Korean

(20:14):
And even though when I was really young, my generation
was eating kim ti, even though I was too young,
and if I couldn't eat it because it was too spicy,
then my mom's generation they rinsed it in the water
and then they they feed us, you know, kimchi. But

(20:34):
these days, you know, young generation, the young mother, they
never forced, you know, there are kids to eat kimchi
like that, So the memory of the kimti is also changing.
It's Young Jung guides us through a regional tour of

(20:57):
South Korea from the vantage going three distinctive styles of
preserved fish. Their methodology and curing are all unique. It's
a story that ran as our cover for wet Stone
Magazine Volume two. So the first one that we have
is the guamegi which is from the southeast coast. Pamegi

(21:24):
is a dried fish you can dry herring or sorry,
it is dried near the seaside because you know, the
sea breeze, you know, it's freezing the fish and throwing
like you repeatedly. It gives really interesting texture of the fish.
So if you go to the the Pohan area where

(21:46):
is famous for drying this fish during the winter time,
then you can't see like in a thousands and thousand
thousands fishes hang outside and then drying there like you're
dripping oils in the outside. Is that a methodology that
is practiced in coastal areas around Korea or is that

(22:07):
just in this point particular region. You can say it's
one of the methodology in Korea. Yeah, But Hamegi is
very famous from hank because the Poan is the city
where it is near to the sea and it has
the perfect condition you know to try this, you know,
phreezing throwing, drying method for this fish. And then if

(22:30):
we were to go to the northern part of the country,
we see winte which is a kind of polic Can
you tell us about that? The hunt is really interesting
fish because it's um paula Korean people. They have you know,
maybe about more than forty two different names you know,

(22:51):
only for this fish because we you we use so
many different methods, you know, to process the fish. So
depends on the dried condition where whether it's a frozen
where like it's fresh. This wish has so many names.
I actually love that that depending on where it is

(23:14):
and it's life cycle, there's a different name associated with it.
How is this wine tape preserved? It's a freezing dry method.
But this area where we make this special fish, it's
amazing cord and we say this area has uh the
kind of blade cord. The wind is so brooder, so

(23:37):
you feel if you have the wind during the wintertime
in this area, you feel almost you know, the blade
strike to your face. It's so cold, it's so sharp.
But this this area has very cold area and so
you dry them in the outside during the winter time
and then this wish becomes you know freeze with the

(23:59):
more sister. And then when you help the moisture when
when it is frozen, then it becomes you know, bigger, right,
and then during the daytime this fish cut though it's thawing,
and then you lose this moisture again because of the

(24:42):
repeated freezing and thawing. Huang Tang, which is the pollock,
develops a unique and fluffy texture. When cooked into a soup,
it produces a milky like stock. Yes, it's a very face.
So Young's cope. Founder at Boori Kitchen, Sonia Swanson elaborates

(25:04):
on the different preservation methods here Sonia to further exploit.
And the three fish that we kind of center for
this piece are Kanwondo unt so Hunti meaning dried pollock,
and Kanwondo is a region in the north of South Korea,
So if you're looking at the entire United Peninsula, it's

(25:27):
kind of central, but in terms of just South Korea,
it's on the northern part of the country. So what
happens is in the winter time, pollock from the east
coast are brought into this really snowy, cold like valley

(25:48):
in Kongwondo or one of a few valleys where they
have this really cold wind that they call a like
a translation is a knife wind. It's so cold it's
like biting like a knife. And they hang it in
these like on these like wooden racks that are in
the middle of a snowy field. So you're just like
walking down these roads and you can hear like the

(26:10):
rustling sound of these like dried fish kind of moving
in the wind, and it's such an incredible feeling. It's
almost like you're in this like library of dried fish. Um,
what does that smell like? Exactly? You know, if there's
very well, we went when the fish were pretty dried. Um,
I've not been out there when the fish were like
fresh and freshly hung. But it's like so cold, you know,

(26:33):
you don't really smell that much. And then moving to Tolado,
which is a more southern West Coast region that's actually
where my family's from. Um, and that's where we go
down for like all the holidays, and so is a
little bit warmer, and it's on the west coast which
has a much shallower sea that's more like mud flats.

(26:56):
And the fish you get there are these small croakers. Um.
When you dry those, it's called crowby and so crowby
are salted and then they're hung to dry for a while,
and it drives very slowly because it's very a more
humid region. And what's kind of interesting about crowby, and

(27:19):
this is one of those like examples I think of
like how in some ways, like Korea has become like
a hyper capitalist, is that there's this special kind of
grouby called body groupy or barley grooby that's like dried
and barley, and it's like a very labor intensive product,
like process. It's a very like luxury product. But if

(27:41):
you go to like department stores in Soul and go
into the basement where all the food stands are, you
can find, especially around the holidays, boxes of crouby, like
a box of ten gruby that is like over five yeah,
for a single box. But the reason why I think
those are so expensive is because around the holidays, especially

(28:02):
like for certain kinds of business relationships and transactions, you're
supposed to give the very expensive gifts to like be impressive.
And so that is one of the very expensive gifts
you can give, and it's it's usually given in like
you know, very specific business contexts you know too, and
occasionally for bribes, although some laws of and passed to

(28:26):
outlaw how much you can spend on a gift for
certain government employees. There's a region called kung Fu and
kang Zongu is also like you know, got a lot
of like seaports sits on the east coast, like near
the East Sea, which has like very cold, deep blue waters.

(28:47):
And the Song and I went down to this really
cool area of of Kiangsuan Province called Koyong Harbor, and
in that area, it's like very traditional famous kind of
dried fish. There's there's a very traditional famous dried fish.
They're called quameggi. And I had actually not had had

(29:08):
quameggi outside of the Korea before coming to Korea ever,
because it's one of those things that doesn't ship very well.
So the way that cameggie has made it was usually
traditionally made with herring, but the herring populations kind of
started to drop off in the last few years, so
they started to replace it with Pacific story, which is
a little smaller, but I think they're both both herring

(29:31):
and sorry are known for having a lot of like
oil um. They're very oily fish, and this is like
why this fish is so delicious. I don't know about you,
but I love oily fish. What's cool is that they'll
like filet these fish, and they'll so rather than drying
them whole as you do with hunt and crooby, Quameggi

(29:53):
is dried as a filet, So they will hang up
these filets by the ocean. And what's cool is that
the temperature kind of fluctuates and you get you know,
sort of similar kind of like freezing and warming that
results in a little bit of expansion and contraction the flesh,
similar to hunk pick. But this fish is like again

(30:13):
really oily. Like when we went there, you could see
like the oil literally dripping off of the filets that
were sitting in the salty you know, ocean breeze in
the sun. And so because of that you get this
like really cew really intensely flavored fish filet. And it's
almost like this really amazing fish jerky man, It's like

(30:36):
so good. What's interesting about Korean food that I think
is not always seeing as broadly in the US is
that it's such a seafood centric cuisine, Like it's surrounded
on three sides by ocean, Like there's a ton of
seafood in the diet. And one of the ways, I mean,
there are many ways of preserving seafood, like one of

(30:58):
them being salting and um preserving in brine, but one
of the most popular ways is by drying them um.
And there are different techniques of drying fish for different
regions and different kinds of fish. So for example, the
most common dried fish you'll find in almost every Korean meal,
and even if it's just in the form of soup stock,

(31:19):
is dried anchovy like that is a staple, Like every
Korean kitchen will have dried anchovy um. And here's young
to talk further about the problems and devastation caused by
over fishing in Korea. Fishing it was very common fishing
Korea a long time ago, and we used to catch
them so much. That's why I think, you know, people

(31:42):
started developing a new method, you know, to preserve this fish.
But overall a sudden, like during eighties or seventies, we started,
you know, catching too much, like over first seeing it
and then the said, sadly, we don't have it anymore
these days. But that's part of your I mean, that's
really part of the beauty of your work is that

(32:05):
you are helping to keep these traditions and the awareness
of these traditions alive. So another fish that I was
really interested in because of the salt cured methodology is
we used yellow corbina fish to make this one, and

(32:29):
a long time ago, we didn't have a refrigerator system,
so people started you know, cure with the salt, and
then they started trying it's the same method, like you
can keep it longer time, and you can eat it
like you know, all year round. But again and sadly,
we are losing because of the overfishing, you know, we

(32:52):
are losing this fish too. So these days mostly it's
you know, we import a lot from China, uh, and
then we curate in Korea. Yeah, Sonya. I think this
is a very important but nuanced point that you've brought

(33:14):
up here, because often the immigrant experience is conveyed in
terms of loss or sadness. But what I'm interested in,
which is sort of what your mother has instilled upon you,
is the ways that we can make new what was
previously lost. And I think that becomes one of the

(33:37):
central questions and the central work of many immigrants to
in effect make their own history. Part of their contemporary
work like Gee Hey and so Young. Sonia has her

(33:58):
own memories of kim chi being made by her mother.
I mean, I grew up eating Korean food, so there
was always kimchi in our fridge, Like we would have
kimchi on the Thanksgiving table next to the turkey. You know.
It was like sort of there. But I don't think
I really understood like the process by which it was made,

(34:18):
like the ferment the fermenting, and like the fans behind it,
the fact that you know that so much time goes
into it. And I think, like I've been thinking a
lot about just about like what Korean American food is
because a lot of places where we were living growing up,
my mom didn't have access to like a Korean grocery store.
So like I remember sometimes she would make um kimchi

(34:41):
using like Chinese cabbage, Thai fish sauce, Mexican red chili pepper,
you know, and it was this this like really American
blend of ingredients that was an approximation of the kimchi
she had growing up. And it's just not to say
that like one thing is more authentic than the other,
Like I I don't think that my mom, you know,
americanized Kim. She was not authentic. It was authentic to

(35:05):
like our lived experience, right. Um. So for me to
go back though and taste a different kind of Korean food,
like taste you know, kimch that was made from ingredients
that were cut in the field like two days before,
you know. Um, for me to like taste this ten
jung that was like straight from an earthenware pot that

(35:27):
was sitting in the sun. Those flavors made me realize,
I think, more than anything, how much my mom lost
by immigrating, Like the things that you lose, like the
flavors and the tastes and the food that you lose
by moving to a new country. Um, just maybe kind
of a little bit more aware of like the subtletyes

(35:49):
of like the hardships that she experienced too, you know,
the distancing she had from her homeland. Cushitty shitty party.

(36:36):
We'd like to thank our guest today, Son me Lee,
the owner of John John beephim Bop in Los Angeles, California.
Chef g Hay Kim of MS kim and in Arbor, Michigan,
So Young Jong and Sonya Swanson, the co founders of
Barrie Kitchen, and I would like to give a special
thanks to my business partner, Melissa she for helping me

(36:59):
bring this episode together. That's all for this episode of
Point of Origin. Thanks for listening and supporting the wet
Stone podcast, where we travel the world to champion food
as a means of expanding human empathy. Please, if you
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(37:22):
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magazine dot com, where you will find the latest on
all things wet Stone, including the details from today's show
and information about purchasing our print magazine. Special thanks to

(37:46):
Selene Glacier, our lead producer, to Cat Hong, our editor,
Quentin Lebau, our production intern, and thanks to our friends
at I Heart Radio for helping us bring you this podcast.
To Gabrielle Collins, are provising producer, and to Christopher Hasiotis,
our executive producer. I'm your host the origin Forager Steven Saderfield,

(38:08):
and we'll be back here next week with more from
Whetstone Magazine's Point of Origin podcast.
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Stephen Satterfield

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