August 29, 2019 • 45 mins
When we talk about terroir, it’s usually in the context of wine, and the human and environmental conditions that influence the characteristics. But on a recent visit to California, writer and cook Jasmine Lee began to ask questions about this framing, inspired by an heirloom variety of rice with a beautiful name called, Kokuho Rose. Jasmine, who comes from a lineage of rice merchants in Hong Kong, wondered whether it was possible to think about expressions of the land; ie, terroir, without thinking of about the history and politics of land use in the United States. If this heirloom rice is an expression of the land it was grown on, it is also an expression of the trauma and perseverance with the family who worked that land.
Next, Chef BJ Dennis tells us about his move to St. Thomas in 2004, where he encountered black folks from around the West Indies. Upon learning he was from the lowcountry, they preceded to share stories and insight about the Gullah Geechee, a distinctive culture of the descendants of West Africa’s rice coast. The experience changed the trajectory of BJ’s career, catalyzing his calling as a chef and scholar of the culture.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
So why do we do We do because we love
the rice. It's part of our part of our heritage,
our legacy, and besides that, it's just a damn good rice. Yeah,
it is. Welcome back to Point of Origin, the podcast
about the world of food from around the world. I'm
(00:22):
your host, Steven Sadderfield today on Point of Origin, Rice
and Resilience Asia to California, Africa to South Carolina, from
the Areza glab Arima of West Africa to the Areza
Sativa and Eastern Asia. Humans across the world and lifetimes
(00:42):
are all bound to the story of rice. Our next
guest is a very good friend of mine, Jasmine Lee,
who is a writer and a cook based in Queens
but for this particular story she is in californ Cornia. Jasmine,
thank you for joining us today on Point of Origin podcast.
(01:05):
Hey Steven, thanks for having me. Of course, so, Jasmine,
um for your forthcoming story in Whetstone, you visited a
really remarkable farm in California called Coda Farms, a company
that has been producing and harvesting Japanese rice for many,
(01:27):
many years. Can you tell us about this farm and
what you observed when you win? Yeah, so I visited
Robin Coda, who is one of the co owners of
Coda Farms with her brother Roth. I'm sitting here with
Robin Coda. Hi, Robin, Hello, Jasmine. So I am Sancee,
(01:55):
Japanese American third generation born raised in California, as were
my parents, and like a lot of immigrants to California,
they my my grandparents eventually came around to agriculture and
so Coat of Farms is located in South Dost Palace
(02:15):
in the Central Valley in California, which is based in
the southwest corner of Merced County in the Central Valley
of California. Central Valley, California compasses sort of paradoxically, the
Sacramento Valley and the San Joaquin Valley. The geographical division
between those two is literally the Sacramento River and the
(02:41):
Delta area. So there we are in is the San
Joaquine Valley. I had a really just amazing time hanging
out with Robin. You know, we we talked about a
lot of things. We got into the sort of like
what the lamp looks like when her grandfather arrived, and
(03:01):
essentially like why her family settled in the Central Valley
as opposed to up in the Sacramento region where really
that is where the heart of you know, rice growing
is on the West coast. But Robin is such an
amazing person. Um, she's such a character. And so she's
(03:22):
the granddaughter of Casa Borrow Coda, who was the founder
of the farm. And when you meet Robin, you're just
immediately struck by her style, her sense of style. Um,
she has this really just gorgeous like mane of long
fotton pepper hair that she throws up into this messy bun.
(03:45):
You know, when I met her on the farm that morning,
she was wearing this gorgeous you know, blue um shirt
dress that went down to her ankles, and we were
like climbing through the field. I was obviously in she
was just so like, um, just elegantly climbing through the
(04:05):
fields and like sandals and this gorgeous dress. We go
into her into this little farmhouse just to talk and
she was making me kanji and you know when you
walk into the house, you're you're just immediately also struck
by just really incredible antique furniture pieces and like like
(04:27):
antique art around the house. So yeah, you just you
really get a sense that like Robin is sort of
like on another tip, So, our paternal grandfather, Casavakota, started
farming rice in the late nineteen tents in the sacrament
(04:52):
Mental Valley north of Sacramento, which has been traditionally historically
the stronghold of the rice industry in California, dating back
to the eighteen hundreds. So we start farming rice, and
my grandfather eventually move the headquarters of the business down
to where we are today, which is about the same
(05:14):
latitude as Monterey, but in land off five in the
Central Valley. So it's not This is definitely not rice
farming ground zero for California. We're an oddball. We're kind
of south. So, Jasmine, you mentioned that you were interested
in this, but what brought you to want to learn
(05:37):
more about rice and to go make this trip? I
wanted to write about Coat of Farms and their and
their heirloom variety of organic rice because I'm interested in
expanding this. Notion of tirre, which in its etymology refers
literally to the land, is a term that some might
associate with exclusive wine production in France, for example, but
(06:00):
it can be used to describe the overall growing conditions
or environmental factors of any given region in the world
that are then expressed through specific types of crops like
grapes um or other cultivars and in this case ingrains
like rice. And so I I wanted to ask whether
we could talk about to war in the US without
(06:22):
talking about the history and politics um of land use
in this country, which in the case of code of
farms and and their cocohoa rose heirloom rice um, those
things are inextricably tied. And so in other words, cocoa
rose airlooe rice is an expression of the land it
was grown on and the political and historical experience and
(06:46):
trauma and perseverance of the family who worked that land.
And so I think cocoa rose for me is just
the start of thinking more meaningfully about the origins of
food and land use and labor in the US. And
you know, I'm a second generation ABC or American born
Chinese who who was born and raised in the Bay Area,
(07:08):
and you know, my diet has always revolved around rice,
and in fact, my ancestors were actually rice farmers and
merchants in Hong Kong. But anyway, I never really gave
too much thought about where my rice comes from because
it's really just so ubiquitous and so quotitian and and
I think that this is true for most of us.
(07:30):
But over the last few years, as I've been like
going home and visiting California, I started noticing this really
just beautiful name that kept coming up on menus, which
was cocahoa rose. And it's the house rice for these
locally and seasonally focused restaurants. And that was, you know,
really the first time I had seen rice named so
(07:52):
specifically on menus. And not only that, it's just like
really delicious stuff. So Code of Farms they grow a
number of things, but namely they grow glutenous rice, which
they used to make the Chico flower, which is something
that you know if you especially if you're Asian American
(08:14):
growing up on the West Coast, it's probably something that
was in your pantry. Um. They also grow this really
incredible variety of heirloom grain rice, which is what I
was interested in learning more about, called cocahoa rose. So
(08:34):
one of the things my grandfad liked to do was
he had an artistic side and consider himself somewhat of
a creative type. And what he did was create he
wanted to create trademarks brands for his own products. So
after the war, he wanted to grow a strand of
(08:55):
rice that was proprietary. So to that end, he brought
in one of the preeminent rice breeders in the country
that at that time, a gentleman name Hughes Williams. And
Hughes Williams was unusual that obviously was Caucasian, and he
was willing to come work for our family here in California.
(09:18):
I mean, there was still so much strong anti agent
sentiments that that was that was really unusual. So Hugh
wasn't came here, and in the course of approximately ten years,
bread and kept cross breeding and crossbreeding and created a
modern cultivar which was very very to us good tasting
(09:42):
and has a beautiful aroma, good cooking qualities, and was just,
you know, we thought a winner. So for instance, people
like know the nomber cal rose. Cal rose is just
it refers to a type of very generic, high yielding,
fast maturing sort of bland medium grain. Cocohole rose was
(10:05):
essentially a premium medium grain, meaning it tasted better. It
just it has better appearance, better cooking quality. Is just
a better grain altogether. We have primarily specialized in Japanese
style rice or Japonica, Japonica being the classification that covers
short grain to medium grain sticky glutinous rices. So we
(10:31):
do coca hole rose, which is a medium grain premium
medium grain that is a table rice what we would
use essentially for sushi or your everyday rice. So cocoa
rose is not a high yield crop. No, I mean
well back in the back in the nine fifties, and
by the time it was commercially introduced by the early
(10:52):
nineteen sixties, I think sixty two. Formally at that time
it would have been considered a modern cultivar. But but
today's standards, it's it's certainly not what our family is
going to retire on the fact of the matter is
that rice breeding drivers in the US for so long
(11:13):
have been oriented to prioritize just literally high yield, fast
growing cultivars that all the characteristics of a good eating
rice have literally dissipated to the point where rice in
the U s now is just largely thought of it
as a bland commodity, something we slap something else on
(11:34):
top of. Rice has lost its own merits. So what
we have preserved here what we believe. It's a rice
that has outstanding characteristics and stands on its own just
simply a good eating rice. For us, it literally is
(11:55):
a tie to our past. It's a tie to our grandfather,
who my brother and I were too young to interact
with or no personally, but of course his history, his work,
all of what he achieved, his surrounds us here on
a daily basis. We're both raised here on the farm,
and it's the reminders are around you literally every single day.
(12:19):
So for what we feel, that obligation, that sense of legacy,
that center of debts, we will we will never stop
going Cocohoa Rose. Okay, so let's talk more specifically about
this legacy that Robin is referring to. A big part
of her family's story is about resiliency, but what they
(12:42):
were responding to is an equally important thing to interrogate. Yeah,
So it was really interesting for me to, as I mentioned,
to kind of start to learn about this rice because
it was really an entryway into learning more about out
agricultural history in the United States. And so what I
(13:04):
began to piece together and learning more about Coota farms
um was more broadly the fundamental role of Asian Americans
and more specifically Japanese American farmers and labors um on
the development of agriculture in the US. And so as
we dip into this, and I think that some people
(13:26):
are familiar with this history, especially if you grew up
on the West Coast, but you know, there was a
lot of racial resentment from white folks, and you know,
we really see that kind of that racial resentment just
ratified through racist policies like the Chinese Exclusion Act or
(13:48):
the Alien Land Law Act, to name a few, and
then during World War Two, through the imprisonment of Japanese
Americans in concentration camps across the United States. And I
think most of us are familiar with this history, um,
but what we often miss are the sort of economic
motivations and material consequences. And there's a really great piece
(14:11):
by Gwen Guildford that goes into what was essentially the
stripping and selling of land and property from Japanese American
farmers during World War two and the effects that this
mass incarceration had on the food supply in the United
States during that time. And so the code of family
(14:33):
who had seen a lot of success growing and selling
rice are just one example of this history. Wow, so Jasmine,
I know that Kaisaboro was a skilled farmer, but prior
to his generation of immigrants, what was the history and
(14:54):
the origins of Asian rights in the US. You know,
as it pertains this story, how how did rice like
end up on the West coast? And you know it
came because of Chinese laborers who are working on the
railroad in the nineteenth century. And it's interesting because the
variety of rice that we see coming out of California,
(15:16):
which the bulk of it is Japanica, it's not the
kind of rice that the Chinese were eating um or
eat to this day. Speaking geographically of the rice that's
that comes from mostly southern China. The irony of the
rice industry in California is historically the roots are based
(15:37):
in the Chinese labors who built our railways. For the
most part, rice was very expensive and had to be
all imported in from the from Asia to California to
feed these labor forces. So of course, I mean they
(15:59):
were looking for ways to economize, so one of those
was to start growing rice here in California, not having
to like buy it from Asia and ship it across
the Pacific, so literally cost cutting. So ironically what's been
grown in California is Japonica, Japanese style rice for in
there for the Chinese rail workers. And you know, between
(16:22):
you and I, since you're Chinese distant and I moved Japanese,
is it Chinese and Japanese do not eat the same
type of rice for the table rice, So the Japanese
rail I mean, the Chinese rail workers are being fed Japonica,
which is just a short grained to medium grain rice.
It's a lot more sticky than what Chinese typically think
of as table rice, which is long grain, lower starch,
(16:43):
more dry and more fluffy rice. But that's that's where
those roots started. And to this day California still grows
predominantly Japanese style rice, whereas the rest of the country
grows predominantly long grain. There is more short grain and
more meaning grain being grown in other areas in this
(17:05):
current day and age, but historically that's the way it's been.
So as most Asian Americans, especially on the West Coast,
are keenly aware of what is known as the Alien
Land Laws, which were formalized in n and because of
very strong anti Asian sentiments of that meant that Asians
(17:27):
really were very much prejudiced against and every all kinds
of daily going on, and that included landholding. So the
Alien land law essentially had a short lived loophole where
Asians could buy land in the name of their American
born children. So that loophole, my grandfather took advantage of
(17:50):
that started looking for land up in the area where
he was least far at least hold farming, which was
north of Sacramento. And because that land was very desirable
and people would not sell to them, so our grandfather
settled down here, bought land and just started to put
down his roots, which included building a mill and all
(18:12):
the processing to be vertically integrade so he could handle
his product from start to finish. Could you tell me
about what happened when your family realized that internment was
like a done deal and that's where the country was headed.
What happened in those days um leading up to that.
(18:35):
My grandfather, by the early nineties and the outbreak of
World War two was farming approximately ten thousand acres and
was very very successful. And rice being of the cultural
importance it is to the Japanese people. It just earned
(18:56):
him this nickname of the Rice Kings. So the family
was doing well, relatively affluent for that era, and when
the interment was pretty much going to be a done deal,
they decided that they wanted to shut down the business
and hopefully keep it intact. That did not happen, so
(19:22):
that's essentially what he started off to do. But because
of because of the scale operation we suspect that caught
the attention of the government. The government literally stepped in
and handed them the mandate saying that they had to
stay open and operate during their interment to produce fiber.
(19:47):
So being interned in Colorado and obviously not being able
to manage your business from from an internment camp, they
had to sign over powered attorney to non agents. So
essentially when that happened, um, the farm was just literally
(20:08):
torn apart. Our grandfather upon his upon their release from
the Machi and Sherman camp in Colorado, they drove NonStop
from Colorado back to South Dolls Palace to see what
had happened to the farm. And when they got here
they found that the homes, the mill, the farm, and
(20:29):
the processing plant, all of their best equipment their airplanes, livestock,
everything had been sold, so there were there was no recourse.
Back then you could file, you could file for for reparations,
and that's what they did. But um, my grandfather did
not live to see a dime of that. It dragged
(20:49):
on till nineteen sixty five. He passed away in nineteen
sixty four. And for what it was settled for, it
was pennies on the dollar, did not even cover the
attorney's fees. For having dragged on those many many years,
it was obviously a very terrible experience. That's not to
(21:10):
say that that's the only experience that happened, because I've
told him, as I've said many times, my mother's side
of the family, she was born raised in the area,
and they had a very good rosary rose nursery business.
They had a German American friend who took care of
that business from kept an intact, managed it through the war,
handed them the keys when they came back from the
German council. So not everybody had the experience that my
(21:31):
grandfather had, but we again suspect it because they were
just too large and too successful and drew too much
attention to themselves. So after the war, and after finding
everything decimated, my grandfather, as you do, he sets up
shop quarter mile down the road. Diggs is in his heel,
build a new mill and starts all over again. It
(22:06):
was also interesting, like to see Robin in this place
and to talk with her about like what it means
to grow up and still live on the farm. She
lives there with her nine year old mother, so there
are these like constant reminders of what happened to her
family and just this incredible sense of grit and perseverance
(22:29):
that her grandfather had to just like return to this
place after they were imprisoned and to like, you know,
rebuild again. You have been amazing as always. Thank you
(22:53):
so much, Jasmine. I really appreciate your reporting and you
sharing the story with us. Thanks for having me see
the of course see soon. M h. You've been listening
(23:14):
to Point of Origin, a podcast about the world of
food worldwide today. On Point of Origin, Rice and Resilience
Asia to California, Africa to South Carolina. You just heard
a very moving account of the story of the Coda
family farm and Robin Coda, who was continuing her grandfather's
(23:35):
incredible legacy of perseverance. You know this story, as Jasmine said,
is one that many of us know parts of, but
to hear it in such personal testimony and such personal
detail and Robin's own words, really just gives you a
sense of how recent these atrocities were. And there's certainly
(23:59):
no service and suppressing the details. But we also want
to recognize that it is a difficult story to tell,
So we are very grateful to Robin and Jasmine and
their generosity and sharing this story. Thanks to you both.
(24:23):
We're picking up in the low country of South Carolina,
where in Charleston we learned that rice wasn't just an
integral part of the culture, it was the culture. B. J. Dennis,
the chef and scholar on Gala Gichi food Ways, joins
us to discuss the regional history and distinct culture of
the descendants of West Africa's Rice coast. You know, I
(24:50):
came up as a dishwasher here and Charleston. You know,
um what the college for one year, I had too
much fun. Parents was like, yo, you're not staying here
for free anymore. Long story short, I started working in
kitchens and I went to trade school for business. I
found out that I eventually I said master later I
started taking culinary went from dishwasher, bus boy to line
(25:12):
cook and you know, just kind of took off from there.
Two thousand and four, I left Charleston to move to St.
Thomas in the Virgin Islands because my neighbors from in
Charleston were from there. That was my connection there. That's
when it really hit me because they really would talk
to me about us here and and as a Galachi culture,
people from Jamaica, I mean Haiti St. Lucia, you know,
(25:34):
individuals knew about this culture here. So that was opened
up for me and the fact that the culture was
unapologetic in the West Indies. So I came back to
Charleston two thousand eight started working. Um that was when
it was the crim Della crime in Charleston with Sean
Brown was just taking off. You couldn't get a job
in the city then, um, so I started. I was
(25:56):
the PM kitchen manager at what is now the busiest
restaurant in the city and called Fleet Landing, which is
one of the classic seafood houses here, which ironically enough,
is how I started off my career as a dishwasher
and the seafood houses of Charleston. I wanted to go
and do the you know, the French thing, the crumb
della crumb. At the same time, when all our French
(26:16):
stuff I was learning through school, all the cookbooks that
ever grabbed. When I go to the store, I would
go to like Bonds and Nobles. I was always searching
for West African West Indian food ways that asked for
food wads and I started working in restaurants throughout Charleston.
Pop up scene started hitting around two thousand and twelve,
two gos and thirteen and the brothers started doing representing
the culture, and I was like, you know, we got
(26:37):
some great black owned restaurants in the city, but you know,
in my opinion, there's nobody's who are doing it in
the purest form. You see the purest form from Land
from the Sea season though you know, you know, I'm
not talking about the mac and cheese and the can
string beans and the can beans. I'm talking about the
airline varieties that were part of our culture that I
(26:58):
was seeing being played around in these high in kitchens
and Charleston. So, you know, wanting to see the calendar
goal rights back, I wanted to see these things back.
So uh, you know, the seasonality, you know, the the
opra there, the virietoes of oprah and peas back into
the restaurant. So I started doing the pop ups, the
Gottachy pop ups, and at the same time I started
(27:21):
to transition myself into wanting to be fully independent. It's
like two thousand and thirteen. I would give people my cards,
say I'm also a carterer, so you want to taste
this food, you can hire me for Where don't you
have me for a house party? Whatever? Whatever? Was clever.
From there, it just took off and evolved into what
it is now, which is more than food. It's history
(27:43):
is cultural. It's connecting the dots to the dish board
through food. So I guess that's the long short road.
That's a good version. While you were in process, obviously
you were garnering a lot of inspiration, as many chefs
to from the French style of cooking, since that's what
(28:05):
the culinary education is really rooted on Um and most
of the Western world at least. What were you researching
to help deepen your knowledge about this seasonal cuisine of
the diaspora and specifically of the African American people of
(28:25):
the Low Country. Well, first of all, I've always been
a big lover of the African, the African dios for
the story in general. You know, coming from Charleston, you
know the deep Galachi roots here. Um, and don't get twisted.
The majority of us don't even have away understand our roots.
That's why I do what I do. Partly also, but
(28:46):
I was ok. I came from a family. My mother
and father. They gave me books from like fourteen fifteen.
I mean I read Marcuscovy. Um. I just it's just
like research, man, I mean studying and sitting with elders.
My grandfather when he was here, he's now an ancestor.
He passed me three years ago. He was a he
was he fished. We call him a netta man. I
mean we can't. I never ate the big strip I
(29:06):
never ate big group of snappers. I mean we got
what we got in the creeks, small shark, catfish, croaker white.
So when I grew up with a father who fish,
he hunted when he needed to, and he farmed and
growing vegetables was his favorite thing. So I will sit
with him and talk about the always, you know, especially
what I could get out of him. You know, at
(29:28):
two eighty three, and he passed away at eighty nine,
but he was getting up there. But I would ask them,
and he talked about the rice culture, and he would
talk about rice eating, and he would also bring it
down to me and say, we didn't eat rice every day.
You know, we had these different greens and so this
it's still the evolving thing for me. But he talked
about the rice pond they had remem brother. That's a
beautiful question that is so complex and still in process, right.
(29:52):
I mean, you're still very much as much of a
student um as you are a teacher, as is often
the case. So I want to talk more about the
rice as it relates to Gala culture. Can you explain
who they are rather as well as what the role
of rice played in the development of that community. Well,
(30:18):
gul of people will be situated on the coast of
Charleston and the coast of South Carolina. Charleston Charleston basically
a peninsula in the middle of all these sea islands.
And you know it runs from you know, Womanton, North Carolina,
all the way down to Jacksonville, Florida. So us here
still on the coast. Obviously, the knowledge of rice Charleston
(30:40):
was known for rice and you can see it to
this day. The folks who was still living really well
of the knowledge of the enslaved Africans on the coast
of South Carolina known as the Gala people. Because of
isolation during that time, um we were able to help
hold onto a lot of the language that came from
(31:00):
West Africa. So it was in the truest form. Is
a pure West African language of different ethnic tribal groups
that came together. You don't hear, really there's anybody who
really speaks pure Gala anymore, but you're here in every
day vernacular words like babba babba this galaful boy boy, Kumbaya.
(31:22):
Kumbaya was singing the fields and the way to sing
to your ancestors to come back and not you know
what we see today. It's like this hole enhanced thing.
Kumbaya was a Gala word. Also, come back here, come yeah,
we say, we will be like come yea lucky, do
you not your boy? That's like yichi talk. That's the
Chi talk right there. Slippery tongue. Gala and as pure
(31:42):
as form. Gala was an English based is an English
based Creuel Soto spoken by a few people like maybe
we say certain words Kuda Kuda means turtle, hon THEMN
them is um you and them, you and them. Gala
was the abolitionist came down here and say, yo, you
gotta stay talking like that. So this you're talking about
(32:02):
a language of art that's been after the Civil War.
Funny enough, being isolated here in the South after the
Civil Wars when the language started to die. Abolition is
came from the north and they didn't understand. I mean
my grandfather. Then you told my grandfather my grandmother and
he said he was Gichi for shore. But you say
to them, they were getting your gla. That was a
(32:24):
fight ignorance. You couldn't You didn't know how to speak.
And that was only even amongst black people from other
parts of the South. Or does the Gichi people. The
Gala people have held all We have held on to
more of our africanisms than any other African American culture
in the United States. So this is this, this, these
these paralysms that exists with the Gala culture. And obviously
(32:48):
we had a knowledge of growing rice. That's why we
are called rice eaters. They say them heat people to
eat rice all day long. I would say this because
research gets deep when you talk to the elders. We
didn't eat rice every day. Rice was a crop that
you grew. You know, we've forgotten about the sword, and
we've forgotten about military and forgotten about phone your green
(33:10):
which is not being talked about, that was documented being
ruined about out of people here. But rice. It's important
because rice kind of unifies. That's across the last poor
and rice made this city rich and we are known
for our rights culture. People were growing right up to
the nineteen seventies. Man up here, Honestly, I've talked to
elders said, yeah, we had rice ponds in our backyard
(33:32):
up in the late to the late seventies, first part
of the nineteen eighties. So rice is important. Yes, my
grandfather had a rice pawn when he was a kid.
Now because we have accessibility and we have acessibility to
bad rice, which is also another issue because if we
get back to growing our rice, when you pound out
(33:52):
rice and the first pounding and you and you and
you clean it and stuff, you still got that good
brand on it. You really see that as like hand harvested.
That's the right that in our ancestors would have been eaten.
So now that we're we have this tag on us,
this rice eating people, we're eating the wrong rights, were
eating the bad rice. How is it that the color
(34:15):
people have u managed to maintain such a strong cultural
identity and such a strong cultural connection to the continent.
You know, we still still had the isolation, I think
heavy isolation up to maybe the fifties. You know, then
you had like hilt in hand start to being the
eyes of developers, and so we still held on and
(34:37):
people still spoke color and here and people still speaking.
I mean, it's very rare. The isolation was key, and
I think by after I said whole, by that time,
you had a culture that was pretty much set firm.
I mean, I tell people all the time, you come
to Charleston, and unfortunately sometimes our gatekeepers are people who
(34:59):
are the most impoverished. We don't look at like that
because because of poverty and not being able to get
the luxuries of what we have over here, especially those
are empoveris on the in the and we call the countryside,
they have to hold onto a lot of roots survival,
if that makes sense. You know what I'm saying, Like
(35:23):
smoke herring and rice, you really don't see that. You know,
nobody who got a lot of money eaten or can
buy this and that unless they nostalgic forward. Yes, it's
interesting that the isolation in a way is kind of
what was able to to save the culture you were.
(35:44):
You're just about to um start talking about food, and
I want you to do more of that. So can
you say in your own work, uh, some dishes that
you've used to to kind of showcase the role of
rice um in the cuisine? Oh yeah, man, pearls. You know,
(36:05):
some people will call it plow. We say pearlow. We
spell it eighteen million different ways. Everybody knows happ and
John copies and rice, you know. But if you say
black eyed peas but down, Yeah, you're around here, you
talk to Glaghichi is happ and John is our dish?
You just not getting twisted and the coming of infamous
(36:26):
around for black fool happ and John's a gotta Gichi
originated dish. Let me and let me refreeze that, because
peas and rice is that one dish that connects us
throughout the ass world. Peas and rising Jamaica, peas and
rice in West Africa. But yeah, happ and John chicken rice.
Okrah rice, which is limp and Susan food folklore here
(36:46):
in the Low Country. That is the wife of Harp
and John. Okay, I mean, if you want to be truthful, Okay,
all red rice, red rice, which is the cousin daughter
sister gel Off, which is in the same family where rising,
(37:07):
the same family with Jambalaya and now Orleans, Louisiana. You know,
we rice crab rice, you know right, you know it
was the backdrop for a lot of a lot of dishes.
And I'll be honest, in the colonial period, it was
the backdrop. You see it in so many colonial clipbooks
because it was truly an elitist food. If you look
(37:28):
at all the colonial cookbooks in Low Country of South Carolina,
rent through the lens of a European housewife. But she
was writing that through the lens of what her enslaved
African cooks was done. So you see dishes and then
you see the didn you see the English French influencing
(37:48):
certain dishes like we call rice pie, which is basically
a rice castle road dish. Then that's when you start
to see the little bit of European influence into these
rice dishes. But it would have been the the enslaved
African hand in the pot that was given it the
season that was giving it a flare. And you are
obviously still preparing a lot of these dishes. Um. So
(38:12):
I want to talk to you about catering because that
is probably outside of an event or something, I imagine,
the best way for people to try your food. So
I want to talk to you about, you know, the
work that you're doing and some of your go tos
as a caterer, but also can you tell us about
the relationship between these African hands that you speak of
(38:35):
and catering in a historical context and how um you know,
catering has always been a place of refuge and occupation
for African American people. Yeah, man, you that's a that's
a great question. You know here in Charleston and you
can ride around and there's certain buildings I canna point out,
like that used to be a Black On hotel and
(38:56):
I'm talking about eighties something. Wow, that was a Black Wound.
That was a Black Couple Wound restaurant from circor eighteen.
The role of food is so powerful even during the
time that our people were going through hell, because see
(39:17):
in the city of Charles, and there was no plantations
in the city. There's one lone group. But other than that,
everybody who was here was either you know, you were butler, carterer,
house cook. And then then you had your free people
who owned restaurants, who were carriers, black caterers. In the
colonial period, there were some of those who were were
(39:39):
in spaces that a lot of us couldn't get into.
Some of those who were able to build spaces for
us back then privately that we weren't able to get into.
Other places, there were prominent societies and it's it's amazing.
I mean, catering. Catering is huge for us. It's always
always has been. It was how we got into owning
(40:01):
our restaurants back then. You know, you see the documents
of the theme caterer Not Fuller, who was a famous
caterer in Charleston, the most famous chef in Charleston from
eighteen fifty to eighteen sixty after the Civil War, his restaurant,
the Bachelor's Retreat. Theme fame celebrated Carter, not Fuller. Always
(40:22):
there was that catering, because that's how we usually got
a start. Sometimes it might have been funded by the
person who enslaved you, who took their he or she's
percentage from you, But you still have some I'm gonna
just say the real freedom but limited leadway, you know
(40:43):
what I'm saying and doing things. And some people had
it all outright freedom knowing their own buildings, but catering
was always huge fuss, huge fuss, And that's what I do. Now.
It's a beautiful thing, you know. I'm I'm working to
get to the point of getting into the restaurant. We're
looking at real estate right now to open up a
Grab and Gold studio, kitchen Vibe. You know, we talked
(41:06):
about a little bit off the phone, but yeah, I'm
a caterer. I mean, it's it's a beautiful thing and
it's allowed me to travel. It's allowed me to do
the research I need to be done to allow me
to cook across the country. I mean, I I'm being
the Montreal and Toronto cooking. You know, I've been to Benei,
West Africa cooking. You know. It's it's it's it's it's beautiful, man,
(41:28):
and it's a part of our heritage that's been throng.
I mean because from the catering king, the restaurant, the
restaurant Torks. So yeah, man, it's it's, it's it's what
I do. Um. You know, like I said, we all,
we all in the talks of looking for some buildings,
but it's going to be an expansion of the catering company.
UM and catering has kept a lot of black people,
(41:51):
a lot of us our pockets. Nice. Um, And it's
and it's it's been like that for for for wow,
for decades. Well, I am so glad that you are
doing the work that you're doing. I'm really glad that
you're able to fully show up to this legacy of
(42:15):
proudly working as a black caterer and that you are
finding your own version of liberation in that work. And uh,
I would be very happy for your brick and mortar
project to get off the ground, as I'm sure it will.
But um, even the work that you've already done, it's
just been incredible. So I thank you for that, brother,
(42:38):
b J. Dennis big fan. Like I said, so, thank
you so much for taking time to u tell us
more about your work and also the history of rice
and the gull of people in South Carolina. Oh man,
thank you, brother, thank you for the work that you
do too, give us a voice of black worn to
speak and look forward to nexton in the physical for
(43:03):
him soon, you know. But it was it was great man.
Thank you for having me for sure. Of course we'll
do it again soon. Man fraid come Daniel, rugging, rugging, shutting, shocking.
(43:43):
That was Chef b J. Dennis giving us that Gigi talk.
I could talk to that man all day long. I
love his voice, I love his spirit, and I love
all of his work. If you're on Instagram, you'll should
follow b J the Gorman at Chef J. Dennis. Appreciate
you for coming on. Chef oh Dan you m m
(44:13):
m m m m m m m m m m
m m m m m m m m m m
m m m m m m And that's it for
this episode. Point of Origin is a podcast from my
Heart Media and wet Stone Magazine executive produced by Christopher
(44:34):
Hasiotis and hosted by me Stephen Saderfield. Special thanks to
Cat Hoong for editing, supervising producer Gabrielle Collins, and a
very special thanks to my business partner, wet Stone co
founder Melissa she who helped produce this podcast. Thanks mel
I hope you've enjoyed today's very special episode on RICE.
(44:58):
We'd like to thank our guest for making it possible,
Chef and writer Jasmine Lee, Chef b J. Dennis, and
thanks to all of you for supporting what Stone and
listening to the Point of Origin podcast for all of
the latest on all things Point of Origin. You can
follow us on Instagram at wet Stone Magazine or online
(45:19):
at wet Stone magazine dot com. We'll see you next
week at the Point of Origin. M
So why do we do We do because we love
the rice. It's part of our part of our heritage,
our legacy, and besides that, it's just a damn good rice. Yeah,
it is. Welcome back to Point of Origin, the podcast
about the world of food from around the world. I'm
(00:22):
your host, Steven Sadderfield today on Point of Origin, Rice
and Resilience Asia to California, Africa to South Carolina, from
the Areza glab Arima of West Africa to the Areza
Sativa and Eastern Asia. Humans across the world and lifetimes
(00:42):
are all bound to the story of rice. Our next
guest is a very good friend of mine, Jasmine Lee,
who is a writer and a cook based in Queens
but for this particular story she is in californ Cornia. Jasmine,
thank you for joining us today on Point of Origin podcast.
(01:05):
Hey Steven, thanks for having me. Of course, so, Jasmine,
um for your forthcoming story in Whetstone, you visited a
really remarkable farm in California called Coda Farms, a company
that has been producing and harvesting Japanese rice for many,
(01:27):
many years. Can you tell us about this farm and
what you observed when you win? Yeah, so I visited
Robin Coda, who is one of the co owners of
Coda Farms with her brother Roth. I'm sitting here with
Robin Coda. Hi, Robin, Hello, Jasmine. So I am Sancee,
(01:55):
Japanese American third generation born raised in California, as were
my parents, and like a lot of immigrants to California,
they my my grandparents eventually came around to agriculture and
so Coat of Farms is located in South Dost Palace
(02:15):
in the Central Valley in California, which is based in
the southwest corner of Merced County in the Central Valley
of California. Central Valley, California compasses sort of paradoxically, the
Sacramento Valley and the San Joaquin Valley. The geographical division
between those two is literally the Sacramento River and the
(02:41):
Delta area. So there we are in is the San
Joaquine Valley. I had a really just amazing time hanging
out with Robin. You know, we we talked about a
lot of things. We got into the sort of like
what the lamp looks like when her grandfather arrived, and
(03:01):
essentially like why her family settled in the Central Valley
as opposed to up in the Sacramento region where really
that is where the heart of you know, rice growing
is on the West coast. But Robin is such an
amazing person. Um, she's such a character. And so she's
(03:22):
the granddaughter of Casa Borrow Coda, who was the founder
of the farm. And when you meet Robin, you're just
immediately struck by her style, her sense of style. Um,
she has this really just gorgeous like mane of long
fotton pepper hair that she throws up into this messy bun.
(03:45):
You know, when I met her on the farm that morning,
she was wearing this gorgeous you know, blue um shirt
dress that went down to her ankles, and we were
like climbing through the field. I was obviously in she
was just so like, um, just elegantly climbing through the
(04:05):
fields and like sandals and this gorgeous dress. We go
into her into this little farmhouse just to talk and
she was making me kanji and you know when you
walk into the house, you're you're just immediately also struck
by just really incredible antique furniture pieces and like like
(04:27):
antique art around the house. So yeah, you just you
really get a sense that like Robin is sort of
like on another tip, So, our paternal grandfather, Casavakota, started
farming rice in the late nineteen tents in the sacrament
(04:52):
Mental Valley north of Sacramento, which has been traditionally historically
the stronghold of the rice industry in California, dating back
to the eighteen hundreds. So we start farming rice, and
my grandfather eventually move the headquarters of the business down
to where we are today, which is about the same
(05:14):
latitude as Monterey, but in land off five in the
Central Valley. So it's not This is definitely not rice
farming ground zero for California. We're an oddball. We're kind
of south. So, Jasmine, you mentioned that you were interested
in this, but what brought you to want to learn
(05:37):
more about rice and to go make this trip? I
wanted to write about Coat of Farms and their and
their heirloom variety of organic rice because I'm interested in
expanding this. Notion of tirre, which in its etymology refers
literally to the land, is a term that some might
associate with exclusive wine production in France, for example, but
(06:00):
it can be used to describe the overall growing conditions
or environmental factors of any given region in the world
that are then expressed through specific types of crops like
grapes um or other cultivars and in this case ingrains
like rice. And so I I wanted to ask whether
we could talk about to war in the US without
(06:22):
talking about the history and politics um of land use
in this country, which in the case of code of
farms and and their cocohoa rose heirloom rice um, those
things are inextricably tied. And so in other words, cocoa
rose airlooe rice is an expression of the land it
was grown on and the political and historical experience and
(06:46):
trauma and perseverance of the family who worked that land.
And so I think cocoa rose for me is just
the start of thinking more meaningfully about the origins of
food and land use and labor in the US. And
you know, I'm a second generation ABC or American born
Chinese who who was born and raised in the Bay Area,
(07:08):
and you know, my diet has always revolved around rice,
and in fact, my ancestors were actually rice farmers and
merchants in Hong Kong. But anyway, I never really gave
too much thought about where my rice comes from because
it's really just so ubiquitous and so quotitian and and
I think that this is true for most of us.
(07:30):
But over the last few years, as I've been like
going home and visiting California, I started noticing this really
just beautiful name that kept coming up on menus, which
was cocahoa rose. And it's the house rice for these
locally and seasonally focused restaurants. And that was, you know,
really the first time I had seen rice named so
(07:52):
specifically on menus. And not only that, it's just like
really delicious stuff. So Code of Farms they grow a
number of things, but namely they grow glutenous rice, which
they used to make the Chico flower, which is something
that you know if you especially if you're Asian American
(08:14):
growing up on the West Coast, it's probably something that
was in your pantry. Um. They also grow this really
incredible variety of heirloom grain rice, which is what I
was interested in learning more about, called cocahoa rose. So
(08:34):
one of the things my grandfad liked to do was
he had an artistic side and consider himself somewhat of
a creative type. And what he did was create he
wanted to create trademarks brands for his own products. So
after the war, he wanted to grow a strand of
(08:55):
rice that was proprietary. So to that end, he brought
in one of the preeminent rice breeders in the country
that at that time, a gentleman name Hughes Williams. And
Hughes Williams was unusual that obviously was Caucasian, and he
was willing to come work for our family here in California.
(09:18):
I mean, there was still so much strong anti agent
sentiments that that was that was really unusual. So Hugh
wasn't came here, and in the course of approximately ten years,
bread and kept cross breeding and crossbreeding and created a
modern cultivar which was very very to us good tasting
(09:42):
and has a beautiful aroma, good cooking qualities, and was just,
you know, we thought a winner. So for instance, people
like know the nomber cal rose. Cal rose is just
it refers to a type of very generic, high yielding,
fast maturing sort of bland medium grain. Cocohole rose was
(10:05):
essentially a premium medium grain, meaning it tasted better. It
just it has better appearance, better cooking quality. Is just
a better grain altogether. We have primarily specialized in Japanese
style rice or Japonica, Japonica being the classification that covers
short grain to medium grain sticky glutinous rices. So we
(10:31):
do coca hole rose, which is a medium grain premium
medium grain that is a table rice what we would
use essentially for sushi or your everyday rice. So cocoa
rose is not a high yield crop. No, I mean
well back in the back in the nine fifties, and
by the time it was commercially introduced by the early
(10:52):
nineteen sixties, I think sixty two. Formally at that time
it would have been considered a modern cultivar. But but
today's standards, it's it's certainly not what our family is
going to retire on the fact of the matter is
that rice breeding drivers in the US for so long
(11:13):
have been oriented to prioritize just literally high yield, fast
growing cultivars that all the characteristics of a good eating
rice have literally dissipated to the point where rice in
the U s now is just largely thought of it
as a bland commodity, something we slap something else on
(11:34):
top of. Rice has lost its own merits. So what
we have preserved here what we believe. It's a rice
that has outstanding characteristics and stands on its own just
simply a good eating rice. For us, it literally is
(11:55):
a tie to our past. It's a tie to our grandfather,
who my brother and I were too young to interact
with or no personally, but of course his history, his work,
all of what he achieved, his surrounds us here on
a daily basis. We're both raised here on the farm,
and it's the reminders are around you literally every single day.
(12:19):
So for what we feel, that obligation, that sense of legacy,
that center of debts, we will we will never stop
going Cocohoa Rose. Okay, so let's talk more specifically about
this legacy that Robin is referring to. A big part
of her family's story is about resiliency, but what they
(12:42):
were responding to is an equally important thing to interrogate. Yeah,
So it was really interesting for me to, as I mentioned,
to kind of start to learn about this rice because
it was really an entryway into learning more about out
agricultural history in the United States. And so what I
(13:04):
began to piece together and learning more about Coota farms
um was more broadly the fundamental role of Asian Americans
and more specifically Japanese American farmers and labors um on
the development of agriculture in the US. And so as
we dip into this, and I think that some people
(13:26):
are familiar with this history, especially if you grew up
on the West Coast, but you know, there was a
lot of racial resentment from white folks, and you know,
we really see that kind of that racial resentment just
ratified through racist policies like the Chinese Exclusion Act or
(13:48):
the Alien Land Law Act, to name a few, and
then during World War Two, through the imprisonment of Japanese
Americans in concentration camps across the United States. And I
think most of us are familiar with this history, um,
but what we often miss are the sort of economic
motivations and material consequences. And there's a really great piece
(14:11):
by Gwen Guildford that goes into what was essentially the
stripping and selling of land and property from Japanese American
farmers during World War two and the effects that this
mass incarceration had on the food supply in the United
States during that time. And so the code of family
(14:33):
who had seen a lot of success growing and selling
rice are just one example of this history. Wow, so Jasmine,
I know that Kaisaboro was a skilled farmer, but prior
to his generation of immigrants, what was the history and
(14:54):
the origins of Asian rights in the US. You know,
as it pertains this story, how how did rice like
end up on the West coast? And you know it
came because of Chinese laborers who are working on the
railroad in the nineteenth century. And it's interesting because the
variety of rice that we see coming out of California,
(15:16):
which the bulk of it is Japanica, it's not the
kind of rice that the Chinese were eating um or
eat to this day. Speaking geographically of the rice that's
that comes from mostly southern China. The irony of the
rice industry in California is historically the roots are based
(15:37):
in the Chinese labors who built our railways. For the
most part, rice was very expensive and had to be
all imported in from the from Asia to California to
feed these labor forces. So of course, I mean they
(15:59):
were looking for ways to economize, so one of those
was to start growing rice here in California, not having
to like buy it from Asia and ship it across
the Pacific, so literally cost cutting. So ironically what's been
grown in California is Japonica, Japanese style rice for in
there for the Chinese rail workers. And you know, between
(16:22):
you and I, since you're Chinese distant and I moved Japanese,
is it Chinese and Japanese do not eat the same
type of rice for the table rice, So the Japanese
rail I mean, the Chinese rail workers are being fed Japonica,
which is just a short grained to medium grain rice.
It's a lot more sticky than what Chinese typically think
of as table rice, which is long grain, lower starch,
(16:43):
more dry and more fluffy rice. But that's that's where
those roots started. And to this day California still grows
predominantly Japanese style rice, whereas the rest of the country
grows predominantly long grain. There is more short grain and
more meaning grain being grown in other areas in this
(17:05):
current day and age, but historically that's the way it's been.
So as most Asian Americans, especially on the West Coast,
are keenly aware of what is known as the Alien
Land Laws, which were formalized in n and because of
very strong anti Asian sentiments of that meant that Asians
(17:27):
really were very much prejudiced against and every all kinds
of daily going on, and that included landholding. So the
Alien land law essentially had a short lived loophole where
Asians could buy land in the name of their American
born children. So that loophole, my grandfather took advantage of
(17:50):
that started looking for land up in the area where
he was least far at least hold farming, which was
north of Sacramento. And because that land was very desirable
and people would not sell to them, so our grandfather
settled down here, bought land and just started to put
down his roots, which included building a mill and all
(18:12):
the processing to be vertically integrade so he could handle
his product from start to finish. Could you tell me
about what happened when your family realized that internment was
like a done deal and that's where the country was headed.
What happened in those days um leading up to that.
(18:35):
My grandfather, by the early nineties and the outbreak of
World War two was farming approximately ten thousand acres and
was very very successful. And rice being of the cultural
importance it is to the Japanese people. It just earned
(18:56):
him this nickname of the Rice Kings. So the family
was doing well, relatively affluent for that era, and when
the interment was pretty much going to be a done deal,
they decided that they wanted to shut down the business
and hopefully keep it intact. That did not happen, so
(19:22):
that's essentially what he started off to do. But because
of because of the scale operation we suspect that caught
the attention of the government. The government literally stepped in
and handed them the mandate saying that they had to
stay open and operate during their interment to produce fiber.
(19:47):
So being interned in Colorado and obviously not being able
to manage your business from from an internment camp, they
had to sign over powered attorney to non agents. So
essentially when that happened, um, the farm was just literally
(20:08):
torn apart. Our grandfather upon his upon their release from
the Machi and Sherman camp in Colorado, they drove NonStop
from Colorado back to South Dolls Palace to see what
had happened to the farm. And when they got here
they found that the homes, the mill, the farm, and
(20:29):
the processing plant, all of their best equipment their airplanes, livestock,
everything had been sold, so there were there was no recourse.
Back then you could file, you could file for for reparations,
and that's what they did. But um, my grandfather did
not live to see a dime of that. It dragged
(20:49):
on till nineteen sixty five. He passed away in nineteen
sixty four. And for what it was settled for, it
was pennies on the dollar, did not even cover the
attorney's fees. For having dragged on those many many years,
it was obviously a very terrible experience. That's not to
(21:10):
say that that's the only experience that happened, because I've
told him, as I've said many times, my mother's side
of the family, she was born raised in the area,
and they had a very good rosary rose nursery business.
They had a German American friend who took care of
that business from kept an intact, managed it through the war,
handed them the keys when they came back from the
German council. So not everybody had the experience that my
(21:31):
grandfather had, but we again suspect it because they were
just too large and too successful and drew too much
attention to themselves. So after the war, and after finding
everything decimated, my grandfather, as you do, he sets up
shop quarter mile down the road. Diggs is in his heel,
build a new mill and starts all over again. It
(22:06):
was also interesting, like to see Robin in this place
and to talk with her about like what it means
to grow up and still live on the farm. She
lives there with her nine year old mother, so there
are these like constant reminders of what happened to her
family and just this incredible sense of grit and perseverance
(22:29):
that her grandfather had to just like return to this
place after they were imprisoned and to like, you know,
rebuild again. You have been amazing as always. Thank you
(22:53):
so much, Jasmine. I really appreciate your reporting and you
sharing the story with us. Thanks for having me see
the of course see soon. M h. You've been listening
(23:14):
to Point of Origin, a podcast about the world of
food worldwide today. On Point of Origin, Rice and Resilience
Asia to California, Africa to South Carolina. You just heard
a very moving account of the story of the Coda
family farm and Robin Coda, who was continuing her grandfather's
(23:35):
incredible legacy of perseverance. You know this story, as Jasmine said,
is one that many of us know parts of, but
to hear it in such personal testimony and such personal
detail and Robin's own words, really just gives you a
sense of how recent these atrocities were. And there's certainly
(23:59):
no service and suppressing the details. But we also want
to recognize that it is a difficult story to tell,
So we are very grateful to Robin and Jasmine and
their generosity and sharing this story. Thanks to you both.
(24:23):
We're picking up in the low country of South Carolina,
where in Charleston we learned that rice wasn't just an
integral part of the culture, it was the culture. B. J. Dennis,
the chef and scholar on Gala Gichi food Ways, joins
us to discuss the regional history and distinct culture of
the descendants of West Africa's Rice coast. You know, I
(24:50):
came up as a dishwasher here and Charleston. You know,
um what the college for one year, I had too
much fun. Parents was like, yo, you're not staying here
for free anymore. Long story short, I started working in
kitchens and I went to trade school for business. I
found out that I eventually I said master later I
started taking culinary went from dishwasher, bus boy to line
(25:12):
cook and you know, just kind of took off from there.
Two thousand and four, I left Charleston to move to St.
Thomas in the Virgin Islands because my neighbors from in
Charleston were from there. That was my connection there. That's
when it really hit me because they really would talk
to me about us here and and as a Galachi culture,
people from Jamaica, I mean Haiti St. Lucia, you know,
(25:34):
individuals knew about this culture here. So that was opened
up for me and the fact that the culture was
unapologetic in the West Indies. So I came back to
Charleston two thousand eight started working. Um that was when
it was the crim Della crime in Charleston with Sean
Brown was just taking off. You couldn't get a job
in the city then, um, so I started. I was
(25:56):
the PM kitchen manager at what is now the busiest
restaurant in the city and called Fleet Landing, which is
one of the classic seafood houses here, which ironically enough,
is how I started off my career as a dishwasher
and the seafood houses of Charleston. I wanted to go
and do the you know, the French thing, the crumb
della crumb. At the same time, when all our French
(26:16):
stuff I was learning through school, all the cookbooks that
ever grabbed. When I go to the store, I would
go to like Bonds and Nobles. I was always searching
for West African West Indian food ways that asked for
food wads and I started working in restaurants throughout Charleston.
Pop up scene started hitting around two thousand and twelve,
two gos and thirteen and the brothers started doing representing
the culture, and I was like, you know, we got
(26:37):
some great black owned restaurants in the city, but you know,
in my opinion, there's nobody's who are doing it in
the purest form. You see the purest form from Land
from the Sea season though you know, you know, I'm
not talking about the mac and cheese and the can
string beans and the can beans. I'm talking about the
airline varieties that were part of our culture that I
(26:58):
was seeing being played around in these high in kitchens
and Charleston. So, you know, wanting to see the calendar
goal rights back, I wanted to see these things back.
So uh, you know, the seasonality, you know, the the
opra there, the virietoes of oprah and peas back into
the restaurant. So I started doing the pop ups, the
Gottachy pop ups, and at the same time I started
(27:21):
to transition myself into wanting to be fully independent. It's
like two thousand and thirteen. I would give people my cards,
say I'm also a carterer, so you want to taste
this food, you can hire me for Where don't you
have me for a house party? Whatever? Whatever? Was clever.
From there, it just took off and evolved into what
it is now, which is more than food. It's history
(27:43):
is cultural. It's connecting the dots to the dish board
through food. So I guess that's the long short road.
That's a good version. While you were in process, obviously
you were garnering a lot of inspiration, as many chefs
to from the French style of cooking, since that's what
(28:05):
the culinary education is really rooted on Um and most
of the Western world at least. What were you researching
to help deepen your knowledge about this seasonal cuisine of
the diaspora and specifically of the African American people of
(28:25):
the Low Country. Well, first of all, I've always been
a big lover of the African, the African dios for
the story in general. You know, coming from Charleston, you
know the deep Galachi roots here. Um, and don't get twisted.
The majority of us don't even have away understand our roots.
That's why I do what I do. Partly also, but
(28:46):
I was ok. I came from a family. My mother
and father. They gave me books from like fourteen fifteen.
I mean I read Marcuscovy. Um. I just it's just
like research, man, I mean studying and sitting with elders.
My grandfather when he was here, he's now an ancestor.
He passed me three years ago. He was a he
was he fished. We call him a netta man. I
mean we can't. I never ate the big strip I
(29:06):
never ate big group of snappers. I mean we got
what we got in the creeks, small shark, catfish, croaker white.
So when I grew up with a father who fish,
he hunted when he needed to, and he farmed and
growing vegetables was his favorite thing. So I will sit
with him and talk about the always, you know, especially
what I could get out of him. You know, at
(29:28):
two eighty three, and he passed away at eighty nine,
but he was getting up there. But I would ask them,
and he talked about the rice culture, and he would
talk about rice eating, and he would also bring it
down to me and say, we didn't eat rice every day.
You know, we had these different greens and so this
it's still the evolving thing for me. But he talked
about the rice pond they had remem brother. That's a
beautiful question that is so complex and still in process, right.
(29:52):
I mean, you're still very much as much of a
student um as you are a teacher, as is often
the case. So I want to talk more about the
rice as it relates to Gala culture. Can you explain
who they are rather as well as what the role
of rice played in the development of that community. Well,
(30:18):
gul of people will be situated on the coast of
Charleston and the coast of South Carolina. Charleston Charleston basically
a peninsula in the middle of all these sea islands.
And you know it runs from you know, Womanton, North Carolina,
all the way down to Jacksonville, Florida. So us here
still on the coast. Obviously, the knowledge of rice Charleston
(30:40):
was known for rice and you can see it to
this day. The folks who was still living really well
of the knowledge of the enslaved Africans on the coast
of South Carolina known as the Gala people. Because of
isolation during that time, um we were able to help
hold onto a lot of the language that came from
(31:00):
West Africa. So it was in the truest form. Is
a pure West African language of different ethnic tribal groups
that came together. You don't hear, really there's anybody who
really speaks pure Gala anymore, but you're here in every
day vernacular words like babba babba this galaful boy boy, Kumbaya.
(31:22):
Kumbaya was singing the fields and the way to sing
to your ancestors to come back and not you know
what we see today. It's like this hole enhanced thing.
Kumbaya was a Gala word. Also, come back here, come yeah,
we say, we will be like come yea lucky, do
you not your boy? That's like yichi talk. That's the
Chi talk right there. Slippery tongue. Gala and as pure
(31:42):
as form. Gala was an English based is an English
based Creuel Soto spoken by a few people like maybe
we say certain words Kuda Kuda means turtle, hon THEMN
them is um you and them, you and them. Gala
was the abolitionist came down here and say, yo, you
gotta stay talking like that. So this you're talking about
(32:02):
a language of art that's been after the Civil War.
Funny enough, being isolated here in the South after the
Civil Wars when the language started to die. Abolition is
came from the north and they didn't understand. I mean
my grandfather. Then you told my grandfather my grandmother and
he said he was Gichi for shore. But you say
to them, they were getting your gla. That was a
(32:24):
fight ignorance. You couldn't You didn't know how to speak.
And that was only even amongst black people from other
parts of the South. Or does the Gichi people. The
Gala people have held all We have held on to
more of our africanisms than any other African American culture
in the United States. So this is this, this, these
these paralysms that exists with the Gala culture. And obviously
(32:48):
we had a knowledge of growing rice. That's why we
are called rice eaters. They say them heat people to
eat rice all day long. I would say this because
research gets deep when you talk to the elders. We
didn't eat rice every day. Rice was a crop that
you grew. You know, we've forgotten about the sword, and
we've forgotten about military and forgotten about phone your green
(33:10):
which is not being talked about, that was documented being
ruined about out of people here. But rice. It's important
because rice kind of unifies. That's across the last poor
and rice made this city rich and we are known
for our rights culture. People were growing right up to
the nineteen seventies. Man up here, Honestly, I've talked to
elders said, yeah, we had rice ponds in our backyard
(33:32):
up in the late to the late seventies, first part
of the nineteen eighties. So rice is important. Yes, my
grandfather had a rice pawn when he was a kid.
Now because we have accessibility and we have acessibility to
bad rice, which is also another issue because if we
get back to growing our rice, when you pound out
(33:52):
rice and the first pounding and you and you and
you clean it and stuff, you still got that good
brand on it. You really see that as like hand harvested.
That's the right that in our ancestors would have been eaten.
So now that we're we have this tag on us,
this rice eating people, we're eating the wrong rights, were
eating the bad rice. How is it that the color
(34:15):
people have u managed to maintain such a strong cultural
identity and such a strong cultural connection to the continent.
You know, we still still had the isolation, I think
heavy isolation up to maybe the fifties. You know, then
you had like hilt in hand start to being the
eyes of developers, and so we still held on and
(34:37):
people still spoke color and here and people still speaking.
I mean, it's very rare. The isolation was key, and
I think by after I said whole, by that time,
you had a culture that was pretty much set firm.
I mean, I tell people all the time, you come
to Charleston, and unfortunately sometimes our gatekeepers are people who
(34:59):
are the most impoverished. We don't look at like that
because because of poverty and not being able to get
the luxuries of what we have over here, especially those
are empoveris on the in the and we call the countryside,
they have to hold onto a lot of roots survival,
if that makes sense. You know what I'm saying, Like
(35:23):
smoke herring and rice, you really don't see that. You know,
nobody who got a lot of money eaten or can
buy this and that unless they nostalgic forward. Yes, it's
interesting that the isolation in a way is kind of
what was able to to save the culture you were.
(35:44):
You're just about to um start talking about food, and
I want you to do more of that. So can
you say in your own work, uh, some dishes that
you've used to to kind of showcase the role of
rice um in the cuisine? Oh yeah, man, pearls. You know,
(36:05):
some people will call it plow. We say pearlow. We
spell it eighteen million different ways. Everybody knows happ and
John copies and rice, you know. But if you say
black eyed peas but down, Yeah, you're around here, you
talk to Glaghichi is happ and John is our dish?
You just not getting twisted and the coming of infamous
(36:26):
around for black fool happ and John's a gotta Gichi
originated dish. Let me and let me refreeze that, because
peas and rice is that one dish that connects us
throughout the ass world. Peas and rising Jamaica, peas and
rice in West Africa. But yeah, happ and John chicken rice.
Okrah rice, which is limp and Susan food folklore here
(36:46):
in the Low Country. That is the wife of Harp
and John. Okay, I mean, if you want to be truthful, Okay,
all red rice, red rice, which is the cousin daughter
sister gel Off, which is in the same family where rising,
(37:07):
the same family with Jambalaya and now Orleans, Louisiana. You know,
we rice crab rice, you know right, you know it
was the backdrop for a lot of a lot of dishes.
And I'll be honest, in the colonial period, it was
the backdrop. You see it in so many colonial clipbooks
because it was truly an elitist food. If you look
(37:28):
at all the colonial cookbooks in Low Country of South Carolina,
rent through the lens of a European housewife. But she
was writing that through the lens of what her enslaved
African cooks was done. So you see dishes and then
you see the didn you see the English French influencing
(37:48):
certain dishes like we call rice pie, which is basically
a rice castle road dish. Then that's when you start
to see the little bit of European influence into these
rice dishes. But it would have been the the enslaved
African hand in the pot that was given it the
season that was giving it a flare. And you are
obviously still preparing a lot of these dishes. Um. So
(38:12):
I want to talk to you about catering because that
is probably outside of an event or something, I imagine,
the best way for people to try your food. So
I want to talk to you about, you know, the
work that you're doing and some of your go tos
as a caterer, but also can you tell us about
the relationship between these African hands that you speak of
(38:35):
and catering in a historical context and how um you know,
catering has always been a place of refuge and occupation
for African American people. Yeah, man, you that's a that's
a great question. You know here in Charleston and you
can ride around and there's certain buildings I canna point out,
like that used to be a Black On hotel and
(38:56):
I'm talking about eighties something. Wow, that was a Black Wound.
That was a Black Couple Wound restaurant from circor eighteen.
The role of food is so powerful even during the
time that our people were going through hell, because see
(39:17):
in the city of Charles, and there was no plantations
in the city. There's one lone group. But other than that,
everybody who was here was either you know, you were butler, carterer,
house cook. And then then you had your free people
who owned restaurants, who were carriers, black caterers. In the
colonial period, there were some of those who were were
(39:39):
in spaces that a lot of us couldn't get into.
Some of those who were able to build spaces for
us back then privately that we weren't able to get into.
Other places, there were prominent societies and it's it's amazing.
I mean, catering. Catering is huge for us. It's always
always has been. It was how we got into owning
(40:01):
our restaurants back then. You know, you see the documents
of the theme caterer Not Fuller, who was a famous
caterer in Charleston, the most famous chef in Charleston from
eighteen fifty to eighteen sixty after the Civil War, his restaurant,
the Bachelor's Retreat. Theme fame celebrated Carter, not Fuller. Always
(40:22):
there was that catering, because that's how we usually got
a start. Sometimes it might have been funded by the
person who enslaved you, who took their he or she's
percentage from you, But you still have some I'm gonna
just say the real freedom but limited leadway, you know
(40:43):
what I'm saying and doing things. And some people had
it all outright freedom knowing their own buildings, but catering
was always huge fuss, huge fuss, And that's what I do. Now.
It's a beautiful thing, you know. I'm I'm working to
get to the point of getting into the restaurant. We're
looking at real estate right now to open up a
Grab and Gold studio, kitchen Vibe. You know, we talked
(41:06):
about a little bit off the phone, but yeah, I'm
a caterer. I mean, it's it's a beautiful thing and
it's allowed me to travel. It's allowed me to do
the research I need to be done to allow me
to cook across the country. I mean, I I'm being
the Montreal and Toronto cooking. You know, I've been to Benei,
West Africa cooking. You know. It's it's it's it's it's beautiful, man,
(41:28):
and it's a part of our heritage that's been throng.
I mean because from the catering king, the restaurant, the
restaurant Torks. So yeah, man, it's it's, it's it's what
I do. Um. You know, like I said, we all,
we all in the talks of looking for some buildings,
but it's going to be an expansion of the catering company.
UM and catering has kept a lot of black people,
(41:51):
a lot of us our pockets. Nice. Um, And it's
and it's it's been like that for for for wow,
for decades. Well, I am so glad that you are
doing the work that you're doing. I'm really glad that
you're able to fully show up to this legacy of
(42:15):
proudly working as a black caterer and that you are
finding your own version of liberation in that work. And uh,
I would be very happy for your brick and mortar
project to get off the ground, as I'm sure it will.
But um, even the work that you've already done, it's
just been incredible. So I thank you for that, brother,
(42:38):
b J. Dennis big fan. Like I said, so, thank
you so much for taking time to u tell us
more about your work and also the history of rice
and the gull of people in South Carolina. Oh man,
thank you, brother, thank you for the work that you
do too, give us a voice of black worn to
speak and look forward to nexton in the physical for
(43:03):
him soon, you know. But it was it was great man.
Thank you for having me for sure. Of course we'll
do it again soon. Man fraid come Daniel, rugging, rugging, shutting, shocking.
(43:43):
That was Chef b J. Dennis giving us that Gigi talk.
I could talk to that man all day long. I
love his voice, I love his spirit, and I love
all of his work. If you're on Instagram, you'll should
follow b J the Gorman at Chef J. Dennis. Appreciate
you for coming on. Chef oh Dan you m m
(44:13):
m m m m m m m m m m
m m m m m m m m m m
m m m m m m And that's it for
this episode. Point of Origin is a podcast from my
Heart Media and wet Stone Magazine executive produced by Christopher
(44:34):
Hasiotis and hosted by me Stephen Saderfield. Special thanks to
Cat Hoong for editing, supervising producer Gabrielle Collins, and a
very special thanks to my business partner, wet Stone co
founder Melissa she who helped produce this podcast. Thanks mel
I hope you've enjoyed today's very special episode on RICE.
(44:58):
We'd like to thank our guest for making it possible,
Chef and writer Jasmine Lee, Chef b J. Dennis, and
thanks to all of you for supporting what Stone and
listening to the Point of Origin podcast for all of
the latest on all things Point of Origin. You can
follow us on Instagram at wet Stone Magazine or online
(45:19):
at wet Stone magazine dot com. We'll see you next
week at the Point of Origin. M
Host
Stephen Satterfield
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