January 4, 2024 • 34 mins
The average American may not hear much about James K Polk in school today, but during his time in office the 11th U.S. President was responsible for a number of tremendously significant policy movements. Today he and his wife are interred in the Tennessee State Capitol... but this was neither their first resting place nor, if certain lawmakers succeed, their last. So: Why do people keep digging up this President's remains? Join Ben and Noel as they exhume the posthumous journey of President Polk in today's Classic episode. (And don't worry, folks: we're back next week!)
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome back to the show, fellow Ridiculous Historians. We wish
you well in the upcoming year. We wanted to, as
we said, take some time off for the week. I'm
going on a couple of adventures. I think the rest
of us are too. In the meantime, One thing we
can tell you is that this classic episode stands out
to us because people kept digging up former president James K.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
Polk. Leave James K. Polk alone his desiccated corpse. Yeah,
why did they do this? You might ask, Well, why
don't you stay tuned to find out in this classic episode.
Speaker 1 (00:37):
Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. Let's open today's
(01:05):
show with a tiny bit of trivia. My name is
Ben and I was actually born in Nashville.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
My name is Nola, and I have been to Nashville once,
but my driver's license expired, so I didn't get to
go to any of the sweet honky tonks.
Speaker 1 (01:18):
Oh that's a shame, you know. We should go to
Nashville together. We should take a road trip. It's a
pretty swell place. You'd like it.
Speaker 2 (01:24):
No, I like the street. I bought a hot dog.
All my friends went to Robert's Western World which is
apparently the spot where all of the grizzled Nashville session
guys just show up at two in the afternoon and
play till three in the morning, just like you do.
And I really felt like I missed out on something.
But I'll tell you what I did not miss out
on a bit. Well, what's that I recently returned from
a work trip to Los Angeles where I happened upon
(01:48):
a little place called the Museum of Death.
Speaker 1 (01:52):
Oh, yes, you went.
Speaker 2 (01:53):
I did go. Refused, and I'm not going to talk
too much about this, but they do not allow photo
for good reason. It's quite grizzly, quite upsetting. And they
had a whole section with funereal artifacts, embalming tools, and
they had a quite impressive collection of coffins. And I
(02:18):
only bring this up because today we're talking about digging
up bodies. That is the base level for my segue, right.
Speaker 1 (02:23):
So, for everybody wondering, Ben, why are you giving us
personal information about Nashville, Noel, why are you telling us
about coffinry, It's because those two things do have an
alarming and we think fascinating connection point here in today's episode,
if you visit the Tennessee State Capitol in Nashville. You'll
(02:45):
see President Andrew Johnson, who's got sort of this wind
swept thing, kind of prefiguring Claire all herbal essences commercials, a.
Speaker 2 (02:53):
Bit of a fabio look, if we're being honest. And
then you have the other Andrew. That would be Jackson
sitting astride his trustees steed in rearing back kind of pose,
looking a little bit windswept himself, but with a little
bit more of an.
Speaker 1 (03:08):
Edge to him, a little panash. I believe he's tipping
his hat. Here's the thing, folks. Neither of those presidents
are actually buried at the Tennessee State Capitol, but those
statues are so prominent that they've become local landmarks. And
there's another important thing, because it turns out they overshadow
another president.
Speaker 2 (03:30):
That's right, poor James K. Polk the US is eleventh president,
who along with his wife Sarah, are currently buried on
those grounds of the Tennessee State Capitol. And a very
modest compared to the giant sweeping statues, a modest structure
(03:52):
that is kind of flanked by these columns, and it
was actually designed by the same architect that designed the
US state capitol in kind of a Greek style.
Speaker 1 (04:02):
And as we record today's episode, turns out that Sarah
and James may not be located there much longer. You see,
there's a movement to disinterer or exhuom the Polk couple
and move them about fifty miles away to their family's
(04:24):
historic home, which is actually in a town called Columbia.
Speaker 2 (04:28):
Very close to Murfreesboro. If I'm not mistaken, is there
r silent in Murfreesboro.
Speaker 1 (04:34):
I've always I've always kind of been winging it. Yeah,
we get some we got some great pronunciation emails earlier,
I believe in the show. So help us out this time, folks,
Murfreesboro versus murphy Feesborough. Yeah, that is the question.
Speaker 2 (04:47):
But Columbia is in fact a pretty small town near
Murphysboro that is largely known for its yearly Mule Festival.
Speaker 1 (04:58):
I'm a big fan of festivals, man, and it's time
that the mule finally got its due. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:05):
I mean it's more than just a little horse, right,
And I mean.
Speaker 1 (05:09):
Just because it's a relatively small species doesn't mean it's
not a big deal. Technically, a mule is the offspring
of a male donkey and a female horse, so it's
a different species that's interesting.
Speaker 2 (05:22):
Only mentioning this to show that, you know, Columbia charming
place to live, I'm sure.
Speaker 1 (05:28):
But Broadway it's not Broadway.
Speaker 2 (05:30):
It is not not a whole lot of tourist attractions
for this city, and I think there are some that
hope that might change with the movement to move said
presidents remains right.
Speaker 1 (05:44):
So Polk was born in North Carolina in seventeen ninety five,
but his family did eventually move to the Tennessee Frontier,
where his father built a home there in Columbia in
eighteen sixteen, and because he lived there for several years
as a ute as an adolescent, the home now serves
(06:06):
as the James K. Polk Museum. And this happens very
often here in the United States. I don't know whether
it's the case in other countries, but in our neck
of the Global Woods, a famous, historically influential person just
has to spend time and a location for it to become,
(06:27):
you know, their ancestral home or their museum. It doesn't
have to be the place where Mark Twain rag or
Allan Poe was born necessarily. It could be the home
where Mark Twain lived or Samuel Clemens lived in I
think Springfield, Connecticut. You know, he wasn't a kid there.
That's that's where he lived and lost a bunch of
(06:49):
money betting on terrible inventions.
Speaker 2 (06:51):
Niche. But let's let's get knock at two ahead of ourselves.
What was Poke known for? Ben He was only one
term president, but accomplished a pretty scene amount of stuff, right, he.
Speaker 1 (07:02):
Did some great stuff. I want to open with his nicknames, though,
because I think they're hilarious. Every president has a bunch
of nicknames, and just a few of James Knox Polk's
nicknames would be Napoleon of the Stump and Young Hickory.
Speaker 2 (07:18):
And the reason he was Young Hickory was because when
he was Speaker of the House really trumpeted his mentor
Andrew Jackson's policies, and that informed a lot of what
he would accomplish as president in terms of really pushing
hard for this manifest destiny idea of expanding the United
States borders to the Pacific that we will get into
(07:40):
that shortly. That was one of the accomplishments. But Old
Hickory was Andrew Jackson's nickname, and so that he was
his boy, Little Hickory, Young Hickory.
Speaker 1 (07:49):
Yeah, he was definitely a protege.
Speaker 2 (07:52):
So Polk had actually been a lawyer, and while he
was in law school, he clerked for the state Senate,
and then in eighteen twenty three he got elected to
the ten the Seahouse of Representatives and was re elected
a whopping six times, where he eventually became the Speaker,
and that's when he was able to really champion Andrew
Jackson's various political positions and got that nickname Young Hickory.
(08:15):
He actually went on to become Tennessee's ninth governor.
Speaker 1 (08:18):
And in eighteen forty four he became President of the
United States. He was forty nine years old, which sounds,
you know, like a pretty cool batting average now, but
at the time he was the youngest candidate ever to
become president.
Speaker 2 (08:32):
So there's a there's a star, gold Star forum. Definitely
young Hickory, totally young Hickory for days. He also re
established the treasury system, which was kind of a precursor
to what we have today under the Federal Reserve. He
created the Naval Academy, and legislation that he signed actually
established the creation of the Smithsonian Institution, which is responsible
(08:54):
for preserving artifacts and American culture.
Speaker 1 (08:57):
And it is free to is it. Additionally, let's see
what's the best way to say this. During his administration,
the very first US postage stamp was issued, which is
still a big deal today for philitalists in the crowd.
Speaker 2 (09:14):
Pinnag you just pull that word right off the top
of your dome.
Speaker 1 (09:16):
Sort of, but I didn't make it up. It is
the fancy word for stamp collectors. Yeeh.
Speaker 2 (09:22):
I should have guessed that, but that is a weird
one for me.
Speaker 1 (09:24):
Voluminous is the fancy word for matchbook collectors. I am
full of cartoonishly specific words. But we are talking about
specific and historically significant actions by the eleventh President.
Speaker 2 (09:37):
And there's the real big one that we hinted that
earlier with this whole idea of manifest destiny, which was
the notion that the US should basically colonize other places.
And during the Mexican American War, James K. Polk pushed
pretty damn hard to make that happen and had some success, didn't.
Speaker 1 (09:58):
He, Yes, he did. He He was instrumental in expanding
the territory of the United States by more than eight
hundred thousand square miles, which means it goes all the way.
This is where it became a sea to Shining Sea country.
Speaker 2 (10:14):
Yeah. In eighteen thirty six, Texas, which was at the
time ruled by Mexico, was given independence and it was
not initially incorporated into the Union. And this became an
issue after that and continuous raids by the Mexican government,
And then in eighteen forty four when Polk was elected,
(10:35):
he pushed really hard to re annex Texas, which is
kind of what set off this conflict. What does that
mean again, Ben.
Speaker 1 (10:41):
This would mean that the territory at hand becomes part
of the United States property of it. So, for instance,
if the US today were to annex Baja California, or
(11:01):
if Baja California were to annex California right, then what
that would mean is this territory would become the property
of the governing state. Annexation is typically not a move
that everyone agrees with. Right, So if our super producer
(11:23):
Casey Pegram and you and I are each three state
actors who are neighbors, and two of us decide to
split up the other one's property and annexit, it's pretty
much a declaration.
Speaker 2 (11:38):
Of war exactly. And also part of the reason that
there was some issue with making Texas part of the
Union was that lawmakers did not want another slave state.
And then there were these, you know, occasional raids, border
raids by the Mexican government. But like we said, when
(11:58):
Polk was elected, he threw all that aside and re
annexation procedures began, and this set off the war, and ultimately,
long story short, we won and we got a whole
bunch of land as a result. And that all happened
under the watch of James K. Polk during his very
short presidency, which was.
Speaker 1 (12:17):
A purposeful presidency. You see. He was a one term
president by design, that was part of his campaign platform,
and unlike many, many, many, many, many other state leaders
or politicians in general, he kept his word and after
four years in the White House he returned to Tennessee.
(12:38):
We do want to make a note here that the
Mexican American War, and indeed all wars, are tragic things.
This was not necessarily a position where there were clear
cuts good or bad guys in the United States, and many,
many organizations commanded by the United States did horrific things.
Speaker 2 (13:02):
Yeah, and I mean in the American military vastly outnumbered
the Mexican forces. It was sort of a you know,
shooting fish in a barrel kind of not an equal
playing field.
Speaker 1 (13:13):
Now, So what happened after Polk left the presidency.
Speaker 2 (13:24):
He died, That's right.
Speaker 1 (13:25):
He did pass away, as people are unfortunately wont to do.
He died on June fifteenth, eighteen forty nine, so not
long after he served his term as president, and he
passed away in Nashville, Tennessee.
Speaker 2 (13:43):
He did. And it's actually super interesting because he passed
away after contracting cholera, and at the time there had
been a massive cholera outbreak in Nashville such that there
was a city ordinance that required any cholera victim be
buried in the local municipal cemetery.
Speaker 1 (14:04):
Okay, right, so don't even have their bodies around for
say a family ceremony or something.
Speaker 2 (14:10):
And so Polk's first burial place was very specifically tied
to these conditions that it was just they had to
do it. They put him there with everyone else who
had suffered from this disease.
Speaker 1 (14:22):
And his after his post presidency of one hundred and
three days, the shortest of any president. He did not
die in office. I believe it was. It was about
a year after, isn't that right, nol where they his
body was dug up and moved after the first burial.
Speaker 2 (14:40):
That's right. It was dug up and moved to Polk Place,
which sounds like a square on Monopoly.
Speaker 1 (14:47):
Or a place where they would sell poke bowls. Okay,
here's a pitch. Here's a pitch. Just let me know
what you think a James K. Polk themed poke bowl restaurant.
Speaker 2 (14:59):
See, I I have issue with poke versus polk. And
I know you've made your line in the sand that
it is poke, and I have said that to people
who have looked at me askance. So, folks, what do
you think? We're talking about raw fish in a bowl
with rice and deliciousness? Is it poke or poke? Right?
Speaker 1 (15:16):
In?
Speaker 2 (15:16):
What do y'all think?
Speaker 1 (15:17):
Noel, If your problem with this persists, then don't worry.
I've still got us covered. I've got a backup plan.
It's a poke bowl place that's Pokemon themed.
Speaker 2 (15:28):
That's easy. Love. You could serve it in a poke.
Speaker 1 (15:30):
Bowl, right and you can collect the bulls love it
all right? But Polk Place, it turns out is different.
That is the that is the property where James K.
Polk was intending to establish his legacy, who wanted to
be buried there. He wanted kids to grow up there.
He wanted it to remain the seat of the Polka state.
Speaker 2 (15:52):
Yeah, and this is the true kind of ancestral home
of the Polk family. After Polk died, his wife Sarah,
continued to live at Polk Place for forty two years
until she died. But here's where the plot thickens and
things start to get really interesting. Polk actually drew up
his will a mirror five months before he passed away,
(16:14):
and in it he used some very specific language. He was,
after all, a lawyer, that said that his and his
wife's remains should be buried at Polk Place, and that
after he and his wife died, the property should be
held in trust by the state, and that there should
always be a blood relative living there.
Speaker 1 (16:37):
And there were a number of heirs, and they waited,
they bided their time.
Speaker 2 (16:42):
But not direct heirs, not direct air. I think because
of a childhood malady. He had the kidney stones really bad.
He had an operation that rendered him sterile.
Speaker 1 (16:52):
Right, he did not have any direct issue, but there
were a number of airs who, as I were saying,
bided their time for decades waiting for Sarah Polk to expire,
and then they filed lawsuits arguing that this will was
a you know, a burlap sack full of bologney for
legal purposes. The court ruled in their favor, and the
(17:16):
court said that the will violated the common law rule
against perpetuities, things that limit an owner's ability to leave
property to unborn future generations.
Speaker 2 (17:27):
I guess Polk might have been a cracker jack one
term president, but not that great of a lawyer.
Speaker 1 (17:33):
And who knows, you know, if he were. That's the
thing about wills, You're not around to defend it in person, right,
you know. So he very well may have been able
to defend his position, but unfortunately with everyone who really
had a stake in that perspective, gone, yeah, you're right,
he had to just depend on the language as he
(17:55):
had written it. So Polk Place was sold and torn down, right,
and today there's a boutique hotel on the property.
Speaker 2 (18:03):
Yeah. Apparently, initially they were trying to turn it into
the governor's mansion there in Nashville, but that did not pass.
Muster and then they it was scooped up by a developer.
I think it was an apartment for a while, and
then it was it's the Boutique hotel today. And that
initial developer, his name was Craig McClanahan. He apparently donated
(18:29):
part of the property to be turned into a Carnegie Library.
And according to Tennessee Magazine, an article written by Bill Carey,
who talks a good bit about this debacle moving Polk's remains,
he says all of this was done just to appease
Nashville residents who might have been irritated that this fat
(18:50):
cat developer swooped in and you know, crushed their their history.
Speaker 1 (18:54):
Which unfortunately is a tale as old as American time.
If we're ticking on the capitalist clock, developers come in
and change things, and it's tough to decide what should
be kept historic and what becomes ephemeral and what has
a strip mall or a mixed use development in the future.
Speaker 2 (19:10):
We're in an interesting spot where we sit here now,
Ben We're in a place called Ponce City Market. That
is a historic building. It used to be a city
hall before that in the what forties, I want to
say it was in Sears and Roebucks Shipping and Receiving
center by the train right by the train line what
they call the belt line now and to this day,
(19:31):
it's basically kind of a bougie mall. And we have
our studios here, which we love. It's a neat spot,
but it has that interesting give and take between history
preserving history and progress and bougie malls.
Speaker 1 (19:42):
And here's a great example, listeners, you may find this interesting.
Even before there were buildings here, this road is named
Ponce de Leon. This building is named Ponce City Market
because it's on a road called Ponce de Leon, which
is relatively famous here in the US. It's named that
because people used to drive outside of the city proper
when it was a dirt road to find the curative
(20:04):
springs that were said to be panaceas for what all
ails you. And they named this street Ponce de Leon
as just a blatant marketing thing to have it associated
with a fountain of youth, famously searched for by Ponce
de Leon himself.
Speaker 2 (20:20):
Totally. And now when you drink from the water fountains
at Ponce City Market, you are granted eternal life.
Speaker 1 (20:26):
True story, right right, Well, you're on the eternal life plan,
which I believe is starts at ten dollars a.
Speaker 2 (20:31):
Month and an eternal life coach.
Speaker 1 (20:33):
That's a good one too. Seriously, though, the water does
come from those same springs. That's why there's that big
sister a reservoir, yeah, exactly, or reservoir. So back to Polk.
On September nineteenth, eighteen ninety three, James K. Polk's body
was moved again. This time it was moved to the
(20:55):
Capitol where our story began with the statues of Jackson
and Johnson, and he was buried alongside of his wife.
Speaker 2 (21:04):
And we talked a little bit earlier about how there's
a little bit of a kerfuffle about this potential choice
to move them.
Speaker 1 (21:12):
To It's a huge coach.
Speaker 2 (21:14):
Oh yeah, yeah, I'm probably downplaying a little bit. And
a lot of that has to do with the idea
that the folks in Columbia are just pushing for this
because it would be a tourist destination. Because we talked
earlier about how at the Tennessee State Capitol, Polk's grave
is largely dwarfed by these, you know, really ostentatious sculptures
(21:36):
of potentially more well known presidents Andrew Jackson and Andrew
Johnson not necessarily more important, not necessarily more important at all.
And again, the whole connection is interesting. How Jackson was
old Hickory and and Polk was little Hickory. I'm sorry,
it's not little Hickory. It was young Hickory, Youngckory, young Hickory.
And he's dwarfed in in other ways than that. Jack
(22:00):
is buried also in Tennessee at his estate called the Hermitage,
which is a hugely popular tourist destination. And you know,
why wouldn't the folks in Columbia want to get a
little piece of that sweet, sweet tourist action.
Speaker 1 (22:15):
Right. Yeah. According to Bill Carry, a researcher and writer
who focuses on this region, the reinterment of President and
Missus Polk is one of the most disrespectful deeds ever
committed by the state of Tennessee.
Speaker 2 (22:29):
The second one, the second reinterment, right, I'm asking you,
Oh yeah, yeah, First one Colera, you know, Colera Graveyard,
second one family homestead. Then when they toured, that's the
gross one, and then the reet to the capitol.
Speaker 1 (22:43):
And so we're seeing, Yeah, that's a great distinction because
we are seeing collectively this this grab for money. It
seems as if you know, as as Noel said earlier
that to the opponents of the Columbia move from the
Capitol to Columbia, this seems as though it is little
more than a blatant grab for authenticity and tourism dollars. Right,
(23:07):
Or we're not particularly honoring the wishes of this former
president because the former president wanted to be interred in
a place that has been torn down. Right, we're not
necessarily honoring the wishes of the man himself the woman
(23:28):
herself because they wanted to be interred at Pole Place,
which was torn down for development purposes. This move, this
idea of moving from the Capitol to Colombia, has no
(23:49):
small amount of critics, including Bill Carey, but also Carol
Van West, who is the state historian there of Nashville.
She said, when Polk left the White House, he came
home to Nashville, his wife stayed there for decades afterwards.
There's no reason to move them, essentially.
Speaker 2 (24:10):
Except there's an argument on the other side too, right,
because you've got this guy Tom Price, who's the curator
of this place we're talking about now, the James K.
Polk Home and Museum in Columbia, Tennessee, which was the
home that his father built and that he later purchased.
And you know, mister Price argues that it's not about
(24:33):
tourism dollars, that it's about doing the best job possible
given conditions to honor the language, and that will because
he wanted to be buried at home. This is the
closest thing you got. So it's like the spirit of
the law if we cannot adhere to the letter Rightactlyah,
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (24:53):
What do you think I am on the fence, because
he does acknowledge that it's difficult to get students to
tour the home because Andrew Jackson's hermitage is so close.
Speaker 2 (25:04):
By, exactly. So they again, in life dwarfed also in death.
And it's interesting because the Tennessee lawmaker, State Senator Joey Hensley,
who sponsored this bill that we're talking about that would
disinter these remains and move them to this Polk House
(25:26):
in Columbia, is quoted as saying this, I honestly served
up here in the Tennessee State Capitol for fourteen years
and had never seen Polk's grave. He told this to
the New York Times, it's not handicap accessible. It's not
really talked about much when they do do the Capital tour,
and not many people visit it. It's just not a
very good place to honor his legacy. So all kidding aside,
(25:50):
I can see both sides, you know.
Speaker 1 (25:52):
Yeah, that's a really good point, because if they're not
including it when they're doing the tour, if it's not
easy to get to. Usually for anyone who's been on
an historical tour before, what happens is you become inundated
with information and so you're not Most people are not
very likely to go above and beyond what the tour
(26:14):
guide tells them to look at. And this brought us
to a very interesting question, which is what does it
take to disinter the corpse of a president if we
just decided, hey, we're not doing anything with the next
few years, let's pick up a new hobby. It turns
out it's not too easy. You have to have the
approval of the governor, the state House of Representatives, a
(26:37):
local judge from the area, and in the case of Tennessee,
the volunteer state. You have to have the approval of
the Tennessee Historical Commission. You have to have a lot
of a lot of different moving pieces work together. In Unison.
About a week after the Senate bill passed, the Tennessee
Historical Commission had come out against the plan to exhume
(26:58):
James K. Polk and said that moving the graves would
create a false sense of history at the Home and
Museum in Columbia.
Speaker 2 (27:06):
Even given all of that red tape you have to
get through to make this happen. And I'm not sure
if this has always been the case in exactly the
way that you laid out, but there are several historical
precedents for exhuming presidential remains.
Speaker 1 (27:19):
And three times is not even close.
Speaker 2 (27:20):
Not even close. Man. In eighteen fifty eight, James Monroe,
who was our fifth president, was exhumed and relocated from
New York to his home state in Virginia. And then
we've got this one that is just an absolute doozy.
How many times, Ben, do you think Abraham Lincoln's body
was moved?
Speaker 1 (27:41):
I know, do you want me to pretend to yes,
I don't know. You can just say it, okay, seventeen
times so far, so far. That's the thing with Abraham Lincoln.
I feel like we have to add so far every
time we mentioned.
Speaker 2 (27:53):
That statistics let the man rest.
Speaker 1 (27:55):
And that is indeed, that is the presidential record for
the amount of posthumous moves per president. And in the
case of Lincoln, these all occurred within the balance of Springfield, Illinois.
Speaker 2 (28:10):
What is that even about? Yeah, and I found this.
It's on a discussion board Lincoln Assassination Forum, from a
man named Roger Nordon. I can't speak to mister Norton's credentials,
but he does have an example or a little account
of every single time Lincoln's remains were moved, and one
of them reads as such. November seventh, eighteen seventy six,
(28:31):
in an attempt to kidnap Lincoln's body and hold it
for ransom, Ghoules partially dismantle the sarcophagus and slide Lincoln's
coffin halfway out. The conspiracy is foiled, however, and the
kidnappers escape, leaving Lincoln's body behind.
Speaker 1 (28:46):
Lincoln also in a way that reminds me of our
earlier episodes involving Winston Churchill. Lincoln also felt that he
experienced pre cognitive dreams, but he never as far as
we know. In the historical record. He never said, guys,
they're gonna move my body seventeen times. But that's a
weird prediction for people to make at this point. Only
(29:11):
time will tell if James and Sarah Polk are going
to be disinterred and reinterred a fourth time. And we
want to hear your opinion on this. Is it a
matter of historical accuracy? Is it a matter of disrespect?
Is it a matter of doing our best? Is the
(29:32):
living to adhere to the wishes of those who have
passed totally?
Speaker 2 (29:36):
And in this Polk House and museum now a lot
of the furniture from the raised ancestral Polk home is
on display, you know, in sort of like a place
out of time, kind of a pastiche So I'm sure
it's a fascinating place to go. Do you need to
dig up the guy's bones right and move them? I mean,
(29:56):
this all depends on your view I guess of historical completionism.
I guess I don't know, right, Like, I don't know,
can't they just put up a plaque? It just seems
like an awful big to do.
Speaker 1 (30:09):
Right, And then it also goes into well we could
argue that it goes into the spiritual beliefs of the
people when they were alive, you know, because there are
some people who find it tremendously offensive to be moved around,
and then there are some people who would say there
were some people whould say, like Lenin style, just just
(30:30):
preserve me and keep me on display.
Speaker 2 (30:32):
Right, And as it turns out, we have an update
to this story. So the resolution that called for the
movement of President Polk and his wife's remains was passed
by the state Senate in Tennessee in March of twenty seventeen,
but it was put on hold until later this year,
(30:53):
so the state House will not actually vote on it
until sometime this year, when we do not know, as
the gears of law tend to grind pretty slow. But
we'll keep an eye on this one.
Speaker 1 (31:07):
So will there be an update in the future, Will
there still be momentum for this legislation or will it
fall to the wayside. Unfortunately, as so much legislation often does,
there's only one way to tell. Well, there are several
ways to tell. They all depend on time, and we
hope that your favorite way to tell will be tuning
(31:30):
into another episode of ridiculous history In the meantime, I'd
like to add this Pulk quotation toward the end of
our episode here because I think it's an interesting contrast.
One of his more famous quotations was the following, I cannot,
whilst President of the United States, descend to enter into
(31:51):
a newspaper controversy.
Speaker 2 (31:54):
Okay, bold words from President James K. Polk.
Speaker 1 (31:58):
Well, he did say while president and not currently president.
Speaker 2 (32:01):
That's fair.
Speaker 1 (32:02):
But now it seems that controversy has sprang up in
his way.
Speaker 2 (32:05):
He was really trying to just be super chill under
the radar, especially when he, you know, invaded Mexico.
Speaker 1 (32:13):
He said some other stuff I like too. He said,
thank God, under our constitution there was no connection between
church and state.
Speaker 2 (32:19):
Oh that's cool.
Speaker 1 (32:20):
Yeah, I had no idea that would turn controversial again,
did you, President Polk.
Speaker 2 (32:26):
And it's funny because he has kind of a pale,
kind of milk toast kind of look to him.
Speaker 1 (32:32):
Something almost puritanical period exactly.
Speaker 2 (32:35):
So you know, I could see him wanting to be
uncontroversial and some of the stuff that we're talking about,
especially like the whole you know, Mexican American War and
manifest destiny and all that. You know, we like California,
but not the most popular political stance these days. Right,
let's just go take you know, from beyond our Borders.
Speaker 1 (32:53):
Oh yeah, and Noel, what do you think about this
quotation the world has nothing to fear from military ambition
in our government?
Speaker 2 (33:02):
How about that one? Either. Let us know what your
favorite James K. Polk quote is and hey, any historical
figure send us quotes. We'll read them on the air.
We'll have a new section in the show called quote Corner.
I'm just spitballing here. You can put corner behind anything
and it can be a segment. But write to us.
We are ridiculous at HowStuffWorks dot com. You can also
find us on Facebook, Twitter, or we are Ridiculous History
(33:23):
and check us out on iTunes and leave us a
review Apple Podcast rather excuse me. We appreciate it and
that kind of helps discoverability of the show. Go up
or anywhere else you listen to podcast. Just write us
a note if you dig the show. We really appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (33:37):
And perhaps not most importantly, but let's put it in
the top five. There a James K. Polk themed poke
bowl place or a Pokemon themed poke bowl place.
Speaker 2 (33:48):
Let us know. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the
iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your
favorite shows.
Welcome back to the show, fellow Ridiculous Historians. We wish
you well in the upcoming year. We wanted to, as
we said, take some time off for the week. I'm
going on a couple of adventures. I think the rest
of us are too. In the meantime, One thing we
can tell you is that this classic episode stands out
to us because people kept digging up former president James K.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
Polk. Leave James K. Polk alone his desiccated corpse. Yeah,
why did they do this? You might ask, Well, why
don't you stay tuned to find out in this classic episode.
Speaker 1 (00:37):
Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. Let's open today's
(01:05):
show with a tiny bit of trivia. My name is
Ben and I was actually born in Nashville.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
My name is Nola, and I have been to Nashville once,
but my driver's license expired, so I didn't get to
go to any of the sweet honky tonks.
Speaker 1 (01:18):
Oh that's a shame, you know. We should go to
Nashville together. We should take a road trip. It's a
pretty swell place. You'd like it.
Speaker 2 (01:24):
No, I like the street. I bought a hot dog.
All my friends went to Robert's Western World which is
apparently the spot where all of the grizzled Nashville session
guys just show up at two in the afternoon and
play till three in the morning, just like you do.
And I really felt like I missed out on something.
But I'll tell you what I did not miss out
on a bit. Well, what's that I recently returned from
a work trip to Los Angeles where I happened upon
(01:48):
a little place called the Museum of Death.
Speaker 1 (01:52):
Oh, yes, you went.
Speaker 2 (01:53):
I did go. Refused, and I'm not going to talk
too much about this, but they do not allow photo
for good reason. It's quite grizzly, quite upsetting. And they
had a whole section with funereal artifacts, embalming tools, and
they had a quite impressive collection of coffins. And I
(02:18):
only bring this up because today we're talking about digging
up bodies. That is the base level for my segue, right.
Speaker 1 (02:23):
So, for everybody wondering, Ben, why are you giving us
personal information about Nashville, Noel, why are you telling us
about coffinry, It's because those two things do have an
alarming and we think fascinating connection point here in today's episode,
if you visit the Tennessee State Capitol in Nashville. You'll
(02:45):
see President Andrew Johnson, who's got sort of this wind
swept thing, kind of prefiguring Claire all herbal essences commercials, a.
Speaker 2 (02:53):
Bit of a fabio look, if we're being honest. And
then you have the other Andrew. That would be Jackson
sitting astride his trustees steed in rearing back kind of pose,
looking a little bit windswept himself, but with a little
bit more of an.
Speaker 1 (03:08):
Edge to him, a little panash. I believe he's tipping
his hat. Here's the thing, folks. Neither of those presidents
are actually buried at the Tennessee State Capitol, but those
statues are so prominent that they've become local landmarks. And
there's another important thing, because it turns out they overshadow
another president.
Speaker 2 (03:30):
That's right, poor James K. Polk the US is eleventh president,
who along with his wife Sarah, are currently buried on
those grounds of the Tennessee State Capitol. And a very
modest compared to the giant sweeping statues, a modest structure
(03:52):
that is kind of flanked by these columns, and it
was actually designed by the same architect that designed the
US state capitol in kind of a Greek style.
Speaker 1 (04:02):
And as we record today's episode, turns out that Sarah
and James may not be located there much longer. You see,
there's a movement to disinterer or exhuom the Polk couple
and move them about fifty miles away to their family's
(04:24):
historic home, which is actually in a town called Columbia.
Speaker 2 (04:28):
Very close to Murfreesboro. If I'm not mistaken, is there
r silent in Murfreesboro.
Speaker 1 (04:34):
I've always I've always kind of been winging it. Yeah,
we get some we got some great pronunciation emails earlier,
I believe in the show. So help us out this time, folks,
Murfreesboro versus murphy Feesborough. Yeah, that is the question.
Speaker 2 (04:47):
But Columbia is in fact a pretty small town near
Murphysboro that is largely known for its yearly Mule Festival.
Speaker 1 (04:58):
I'm a big fan of festivals, man, and it's time
that the mule finally got its due. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:05):
I mean it's more than just a little horse, right,
And I mean.
Speaker 1 (05:09):
Just because it's a relatively small species doesn't mean it's
not a big deal. Technically, a mule is the offspring
of a male donkey and a female horse, so it's
a different species that's interesting.
Speaker 2 (05:22):
Only mentioning this to show that, you know, Columbia charming
place to live, I'm sure.
Speaker 1 (05:28):
But Broadway it's not Broadway.
Speaker 2 (05:30):
It is not not a whole lot of tourist attractions
for this city, and I think there are some that
hope that might change with the movement to move said
presidents remains right.
Speaker 1 (05:44):
So Polk was born in North Carolina in seventeen ninety five,
but his family did eventually move to the Tennessee Frontier,
where his father built a home there in Columbia in
eighteen sixteen, and because he lived there for several years
as a ute as an adolescent, the home now serves
(06:06):
as the James K. Polk Museum. And this happens very
often here in the United States. I don't know whether
it's the case in other countries, but in our neck
of the Global Woods, a famous, historically influential person just
has to spend time and a location for it to become,
(06:27):
you know, their ancestral home or their museum. It doesn't
have to be the place where Mark Twain rag or
Allan Poe was born necessarily. It could be the home
where Mark Twain lived or Samuel Clemens lived in I
think Springfield, Connecticut. You know, he wasn't a kid there.
That's that's where he lived and lost a bunch of
(06:49):
money betting on terrible inventions.
Speaker 2 (06:51):
Niche. But let's let's get knock at two ahead of ourselves.
What was Poke known for? Ben He was only one
term president, but accomplished a pretty scene amount of stuff, right, he.
Speaker 1 (07:02):
Did some great stuff. I want to open with his nicknames, though,
because I think they're hilarious. Every president has a bunch
of nicknames, and just a few of James Knox Polk's
nicknames would be Napoleon of the Stump and Young Hickory.
Speaker 2 (07:18):
And the reason he was Young Hickory was because when
he was Speaker of the House really trumpeted his mentor
Andrew Jackson's policies, and that informed a lot of what
he would accomplish as president in terms of really pushing
hard for this manifest destiny idea of expanding the United
States borders to the Pacific that we will get into
(07:40):
that shortly. That was one of the accomplishments. But Old
Hickory was Andrew Jackson's nickname, and so that he was
his boy, Little Hickory, Young Hickory.
Speaker 1 (07:49):
Yeah, he was definitely a protege.
Speaker 2 (07:52):
So Polk had actually been a lawyer, and while he
was in law school, he clerked for the state Senate,
and then in eighteen twenty three he got elected to
the ten the Seahouse of Representatives and was re elected
a whopping six times, where he eventually became the Speaker,
and that's when he was able to really champion Andrew
Jackson's various political positions and got that nickname Young Hickory.
(08:15):
He actually went on to become Tennessee's ninth governor.
Speaker 1 (08:18):
And in eighteen forty four he became President of the
United States. He was forty nine years old, which sounds,
you know, like a pretty cool batting average now, but
at the time he was the youngest candidate ever to
become president.
Speaker 2 (08:32):
So there's a there's a star, gold Star forum. Definitely
young Hickory, totally young Hickory for days. He also re
established the treasury system, which was kind of a precursor
to what we have today under the Federal Reserve. He
created the Naval Academy, and legislation that he signed actually
established the creation of the Smithsonian Institution, which is responsible
(08:54):
for preserving artifacts and American culture.
Speaker 1 (08:57):
And it is free to is it. Additionally, let's see
what's the best way to say this. During his administration,
the very first US postage stamp was issued, which is
still a big deal today for philitalists in the crowd.
Speaker 2 (09:14):
Pinnag you just pull that word right off the top
of your dome.
Speaker 1 (09:16):
Sort of, but I didn't make it up. It is
the fancy word for stamp collectors. Yeeh.
Speaker 2 (09:22):
I should have guessed that, but that is a weird
one for me.
Speaker 1 (09:24):
Voluminous is the fancy word for matchbook collectors. I am
full of cartoonishly specific words. But we are talking about
specific and historically significant actions by the eleventh President.
Speaker 2 (09:37):
And there's the real big one that we hinted that
earlier with this whole idea of manifest destiny, which was
the notion that the US should basically colonize other places.
And during the Mexican American War, James K. Polk pushed
pretty damn hard to make that happen and had some success, didn't.
Speaker 1 (09:58):
He, Yes, he did. He He was instrumental in expanding
the territory of the United States by more than eight
hundred thousand square miles, which means it goes all the way.
This is where it became a sea to Shining Sea country.
Speaker 2 (10:14):
Yeah. In eighteen thirty six, Texas, which was at the
time ruled by Mexico, was given independence and it was
not initially incorporated into the Union. And this became an
issue after that and continuous raids by the Mexican government,
And then in eighteen forty four when Polk was elected,
(10:35):
he pushed really hard to re annex Texas, which is
kind of what set off this conflict. What does that
mean again, Ben.
Speaker 1 (10:41):
This would mean that the territory at hand becomes part
of the United States property of it. So, for instance,
if the US today were to annex Baja California, or
(11:01):
if Baja California were to annex California right, then what
that would mean is this territory would become the property
of the governing state. Annexation is typically not a move
that everyone agrees with. Right, So if our super producer
(11:23):
Casey Pegram and you and I are each three state
actors who are neighbors, and two of us decide to
split up the other one's property and annexit, it's pretty
much a declaration.
Speaker 2 (11:38):
Of war exactly. And also part of the reason that
there was some issue with making Texas part of the
Union was that lawmakers did not want another slave state.
And then there were these, you know, occasional raids, border
raids by the Mexican government. But like we said, when
(11:58):
Polk was elected, he threw all that aside and re
annexation procedures began, and this set off the war, and ultimately,
long story short, we won and we got a whole
bunch of land as a result. And that all happened
under the watch of James K. Polk during his very
short presidency, which was.
Speaker 1 (12:17):
A purposeful presidency. You see. He was a one term
president by design, that was part of his campaign platform,
and unlike many, many, many, many, many other state leaders
or politicians in general, he kept his word and after
four years in the White House he returned to Tennessee.
(12:38):
We do want to make a note here that the
Mexican American War, and indeed all wars, are tragic things.
This was not necessarily a position where there were clear
cuts good or bad guys in the United States, and many,
many organizations commanded by the United States did horrific things.
Speaker 2 (13:02):
Yeah, and I mean in the American military vastly outnumbered
the Mexican forces. It was sort of a you know,
shooting fish in a barrel kind of not an equal
playing field.
Speaker 1 (13:13):
Now, So what happened after Polk left the presidency.
Speaker 2 (13:24):
He died, That's right.
Speaker 1 (13:25):
He did pass away, as people are unfortunately wont to do.
He died on June fifteenth, eighteen forty nine, so not
long after he served his term as president, and he
passed away in Nashville, Tennessee.
Speaker 2 (13:43):
He did. And it's actually super interesting because he passed
away after contracting cholera, and at the time there had
been a massive cholera outbreak in Nashville such that there
was a city ordinance that required any cholera victim be
buried in the local municipal cemetery.
Speaker 1 (14:04):
Okay, right, so don't even have their bodies around for
say a family ceremony or something.
Speaker 2 (14:10):
And so Polk's first burial place was very specifically tied
to these conditions that it was just they had to
do it. They put him there with everyone else who
had suffered from this disease.
Speaker 1 (14:22):
And his after his post presidency of one hundred and
three days, the shortest of any president. He did not
die in office. I believe it was. It was about
a year after, isn't that right, nol where they his
body was dug up and moved after the first burial.
Speaker 2 (14:40):
That's right. It was dug up and moved to Polk Place,
which sounds like a square on Monopoly.
Speaker 1 (14:47):
Or a place where they would sell poke bowls. Okay,
here's a pitch. Here's a pitch. Just let me know
what you think a James K. Polk themed poke bowl restaurant.
Speaker 2 (14:59):
See, I I have issue with poke versus polk. And
I know you've made your line in the sand that
it is poke, and I have said that to people
who have looked at me askance. So, folks, what do
you think? We're talking about raw fish in a bowl
with rice and deliciousness? Is it poke or poke? Right?
Speaker 1 (15:16):
In?
Speaker 2 (15:16):
What do y'all think?
Speaker 1 (15:17):
Noel, If your problem with this persists, then don't worry.
I've still got us covered. I've got a backup plan.
It's a poke bowl place that's Pokemon themed.
Speaker 2 (15:28):
That's easy. Love. You could serve it in a poke.
Speaker 1 (15:30):
Bowl, right and you can collect the bulls love it
all right? But Polk Place, it turns out is different.
That is the that is the property where James K.
Polk was intending to establish his legacy, who wanted to
be buried there. He wanted kids to grow up there.
He wanted it to remain the seat of the Polka state.
Speaker 2 (15:52):
Yeah, and this is the true kind of ancestral home
of the Polk family. After Polk died, his wife Sarah,
continued to live at Polk Place for forty two years
until she died. But here's where the plot thickens and
things start to get really interesting. Polk actually drew up
his will a mirror five months before he passed away,
(16:14):
and in it he used some very specific language. He was,
after all, a lawyer, that said that his and his
wife's remains should be buried at Polk Place, and that
after he and his wife died, the property should be
held in trust by the state, and that there should
always be a blood relative living there.
Speaker 1 (16:37):
And there were a number of heirs, and they waited,
they bided their time.
Speaker 2 (16:42):
But not direct heirs, not direct air. I think because
of a childhood malady. He had the kidney stones really bad.
He had an operation that rendered him sterile.
Speaker 1 (16:52):
Right, he did not have any direct issue, but there
were a number of airs who, as I were saying,
bided their time for decades waiting for Sarah Polk to expire,
and then they filed lawsuits arguing that this will was
a you know, a burlap sack full of bologney for
legal purposes. The court ruled in their favor, and the
(17:16):
court said that the will violated the common law rule
against perpetuities, things that limit an owner's ability to leave
property to unborn future generations.
Speaker 2 (17:27):
I guess Polk might have been a cracker jack one
term president, but not that great of a lawyer.
Speaker 1 (17:33):
And who knows, you know, if he were. That's the
thing about wills, You're not around to defend it in person, right,
you know. So he very well may have been able
to defend his position, but unfortunately with everyone who really
had a stake in that perspective, gone, yeah, you're right,
he had to just depend on the language as he
(17:55):
had written it. So Polk Place was sold and torn down, right,
and today there's a boutique hotel on the property.
Speaker 2 (18:03):
Yeah. Apparently, initially they were trying to turn it into
the governor's mansion there in Nashville, but that did not pass.
Muster and then they it was scooped up by a developer.
I think it was an apartment for a while, and
then it was it's the Boutique hotel today. And that
initial developer, his name was Craig McClanahan. He apparently donated
(18:29):
part of the property to be turned into a Carnegie Library.
And according to Tennessee Magazine, an article written by Bill Carey,
who talks a good bit about this debacle moving Polk's remains,
he says all of this was done just to appease
Nashville residents who might have been irritated that this fat
(18:50):
cat developer swooped in and you know, crushed their their history.
Speaker 1 (18:54):
Which unfortunately is a tale as old as American time.
If we're ticking on the capitalist clock, developers come in
and change things, and it's tough to decide what should
be kept historic and what becomes ephemeral and what has
a strip mall or a mixed use development in the future.
Speaker 2 (19:10):
We're in an interesting spot where we sit here now,
Ben We're in a place called Ponce City Market. That
is a historic building. It used to be a city
hall before that in the what forties, I want to
say it was in Sears and Roebucks Shipping and Receiving
center by the train right by the train line what
they call the belt line now and to this day,
(19:31):
it's basically kind of a bougie mall. And we have
our studios here, which we love. It's a neat spot,
but it has that interesting give and take between history
preserving history and progress and bougie malls.
Speaker 1 (19:42):
And here's a great example, listeners, you may find this interesting.
Even before there were buildings here, this road is named
Ponce de Leon. This building is named Ponce City Market
because it's on a road called Ponce de Leon, which
is relatively famous here in the US. It's named that
because people used to drive outside of the city proper
when it was a dirt road to find the curative
(20:04):
springs that were said to be panaceas for what all
ails you. And they named this street Ponce de Leon
as just a blatant marketing thing to have it associated
with a fountain of youth, famously searched for by Ponce
de Leon himself.
Speaker 2 (20:20):
Totally. And now when you drink from the water fountains
at Ponce City Market, you are granted eternal life.
Speaker 1 (20:26):
True story, right right, Well, you're on the eternal life plan,
which I believe is starts at ten dollars a.
Speaker 2 (20:31):
Month and an eternal life coach.
Speaker 1 (20:33):
That's a good one too. Seriously, though, the water does
come from those same springs. That's why there's that big
sister a reservoir, yeah, exactly, or reservoir. So back to Polk.
On September nineteenth, eighteen ninety three, James K. Polk's body
was moved again. This time it was moved to the
(20:55):
Capitol where our story began with the statues of Jackson
and Johnson, and he was buried alongside of his wife.
Speaker 2 (21:04):
And we talked a little bit earlier about how there's
a little bit of a kerfuffle about this potential choice
to move them.
Speaker 1 (21:12):
To It's a huge coach.
Speaker 2 (21:14):
Oh yeah, yeah, I'm probably downplaying a little bit. And
a lot of that has to do with the idea
that the folks in Columbia are just pushing for this
because it would be a tourist destination. Because we talked
earlier about how at the Tennessee State Capitol, Polk's grave
is largely dwarfed by these, you know, really ostentatious sculptures
(21:36):
of potentially more well known presidents Andrew Jackson and Andrew
Johnson not necessarily more important, not necessarily more important at all.
And again, the whole connection is interesting. How Jackson was
old Hickory and and Polk was little Hickory. I'm sorry,
it's not little Hickory. It was young Hickory, Youngckory, young Hickory.
And he's dwarfed in in other ways than that. Jack
(22:00):
is buried also in Tennessee at his estate called the Hermitage,
which is a hugely popular tourist destination. And you know,
why wouldn't the folks in Columbia want to get a
little piece of that sweet, sweet tourist action.
Speaker 1 (22:15):
Right. Yeah. According to Bill Carry, a researcher and writer
who focuses on this region, the reinterment of President and
Missus Polk is one of the most disrespectful deeds ever
committed by the state of Tennessee.
Speaker 2 (22:29):
The second one, the second reinterment, right, I'm asking you,
Oh yeah, yeah, First one Colera, you know, Colera Graveyard,
second one family homestead. Then when they toured, that's the
gross one, and then the reet to the capitol.
Speaker 1 (22:43):
And so we're seeing, Yeah, that's a great distinction because
we are seeing collectively this this grab for money. It
seems as if you know, as as Noel said earlier
that to the opponents of the Columbia move from the
Capitol to Columbia, this seems as though it is little
more than a blatant grab for authenticity and tourism dollars. Right,
(23:07):
Or we're not particularly honoring the wishes of this former
president because the former president wanted to be interred in
a place that has been torn down. Right, we're not
necessarily honoring the wishes of the man himself the woman
(23:28):
herself because they wanted to be interred at Pole Place,
which was torn down for development purposes. This move, this
idea of moving from the Capitol to Colombia, has no
(23:49):
small amount of critics, including Bill Carey, but also Carol
Van West, who is the state historian there of Nashville.
She said, when Polk left the White House, he came
home to Nashville, his wife stayed there for decades afterwards.
There's no reason to move them, essentially.
Speaker 2 (24:10):
Except there's an argument on the other side too, right,
because you've got this guy Tom Price, who's the curator
of this place we're talking about now, the James K.
Polk Home and Museum in Columbia, Tennessee, which was the
home that his father built and that he later purchased.
And you know, mister Price argues that it's not about
(24:33):
tourism dollars, that it's about doing the best job possible
given conditions to honor the language, and that will because
he wanted to be buried at home. This is the
closest thing you got. So it's like the spirit of
the law if we cannot adhere to the letter Rightactlyah,
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (24:53):
What do you think I am on the fence, because
he does acknowledge that it's difficult to get students to
tour the home because Andrew Jackson's hermitage is so close.
Speaker 2 (25:04):
By, exactly. So they again, in life dwarfed also in death.
And it's interesting because the Tennessee lawmaker, State Senator Joey Hensley,
who sponsored this bill that we're talking about that would
disinter these remains and move them to this Polk House
(25:26):
in Columbia, is quoted as saying this, I honestly served
up here in the Tennessee State Capitol for fourteen years
and had never seen Polk's grave. He told this to
the New York Times, it's not handicap accessible. It's not
really talked about much when they do do the Capital tour,
and not many people visit it. It's just not a
very good place to honor his legacy. So all kidding aside,
(25:50):
I can see both sides, you know.
Speaker 1 (25:52):
Yeah, that's a really good point, because if they're not
including it when they're doing the tour, if it's not
easy to get to. Usually for anyone who's been on
an historical tour before, what happens is you become inundated
with information and so you're not Most people are not
very likely to go above and beyond what the tour
(26:14):
guide tells them to look at. And this brought us
to a very interesting question, which is what does it
take to disinter the corpse of a president if we
just decided, hey, we're not doing anything with the next
few years, let's pick up a new hobby. It turns
out it's not too easy. You have to have the
approval of the governor, the state House of Representatives, a
(26:37):
local judge from the area, and in the case of Tennessee,
the volunteer state. You have to have the approval of
the Tennessee Historical Commission. You have to have a lot
of a lot of different moving pieces work together. In Unison.
About a week after the Senate bill passed, the Tennessee
Historical Commission had come out against the plan to exhume
(26:58):
James K. Polk and said that moving the graves would
create a false sense of history at the Home and
Museum in Columbia.
Speaker 2 (27:06):
Even given all of that red tape you have to
get through to make this happen. And I'm not sure
if this has always been the case in exactly the
way that you laid out, but there are several historical
precedents for exhuming presidential remains.
Speaker 1 (27:19):
And three times is not even close.
Speaker 2 (27:20):
Not even close. Man. In eighteen fifty eight, James Monroe,
who was our fifth president, was exhumed and relocated from
New York to his home state in Virginia. And then
we've got this one that is just an absolute doozy.
How many times, Ben, do you think Abraham Lincoln's body
was moved?
Speaker 1 (27:41):
I know, do you want me to pretend to yes,
I don't know. You can just say it, okay, seventeen
times so far, so far. That's the thing with Abraham Lincoln.
I feel like we have to add so far every
time we mentioned.
Speaker 2 (27:53):
That statistics let the man rest.
Speaker 1 (27:55):
And that is indeed, that is the presidential record for
the amount of posthumous moves per president. And in the
case of Lincoln, these all occurred within the balance of Springfield, Illinois.
Speaker 2 (28:10):
What is that even about? Yeah, and I found this.
It's on a discussion board Lincoln Assassination Forum, from a
man named Roger Nordon. I can't speak to mister Norton's credentials,
but he does have an example or a little account
of every single time Lincoln's remains were moved, and one
of them reads as such. November seventh, eighteen seventy six,
(28:31):
in an attempt to kidnap Lincoln's body and hold it
for ransom, Ghoules partially dismantle the sarcophagus and slide Lincoln's
coffin halfway out. The conspiracy is foiled, however, and the
kidnappers escape, leaving Lincoln's body behind.
Speaker 1 (28:46):
Lincoln also in a way that reminds me of our
earlier episodes involving Winston Churchill. Lincoln also felt that he
experienced pre cognitive dreams, but he never as far as
we know. In the historical record. He never said, guys,
they're gonna move my body seventeen times. But that's a
weird prediction for people to make at this point. Only
(29:11):
time will tell if James and Sarah Polk are going
to be disinterred and reinterred a fourth time. And we
want to hear your opinion on this. Is it a
matter of historical accuracy? Is it a matter of disrespect?
Is it a matter of doing our best? Is the
(29:32):
living to adhere to the wishes of those who have
passed totally?
Speaker 2 (29:36):
And in this Polk House and museum now a lot
of the furniture from the raised ancestral Polk home is
on display, you know, in sort of like a place
out of time, kind of a pastiche So I'm sure
it's a fascinating place to go. Do you need to
dig up the guy's bones right and move them? I mean,
(29:56):
this all depends on your view I guess of historical completionism.
I guess I don't know, right, Like, I don't know,
can't they just put up a plaque? It just seems
like an awful big to do.
Speaker 1 (30:09):
Right, And then it also goes into well we could
argue that it goes into the spiritual beliefs of the
people when they were alive, you know, because there are
some people who find it tremendously offensive to be moved around,
and then there are some people who would say there
were some people whould say, like Lenin style, just just
(30:30):
preserve me and keep me on display.
Speaker 2 (30:32):
Right, And as it turns out, we have an update
to this story. So the resolution that called for the
movement of President Polk and his wife's remains was passed
by the state Senate in Tennessee in March of twenty seventeen,
but it was put on hold until later this year,
(30:53):
so the state House will not actually vote on it
until sometime this year, when we do not know, as
the gears of law tend to grind pretty slow. But
we'll keep an eye on this one.
Speaker 1 (31:07):
So will there be an update in the future, Will
there still be momentum for this legislation or will it
fall to the wayside. Unfortunately, as so much legislation often does,
there's only one way to tell. Well, there are several
ways to tell. They all depend on time, and we
hope that your favorite way to tell will be tuning
(31:30):
into another episode of ridiculous history In the meantime, I'd
like to add this Pulk quotation toward the end of
our episode here because I think it's an interesting contrast.
One of his more famous quotations was the following, I cannot,
whilst President of the United States, descend to enter into
(31:51):
a newspaper controversy.
Speaker 2 (31:54):
Okay, bold words from President James K. Polk.
Speaker 1 (31:58):
Well, he did say while president and not currently president.
Speaker 2 (32:01):
That's fair.
Speaker 1 (32:02):
But now it seems that controversy has sprang up in
his way.
Speaker 2 (32:05):
He was really trying to just be super chill under
the radar, especially when he, you know, invaded Mexico.
Speaker 1 (32:13):
He said some other stuff I like too. He said,
thank God, under our constitution there was no connection between
church and state.
Speaker 2 (32:19):
Oh that's cool.
Speaker 1 (32:20):
Yeah, I had no idea that would turn controversial again,
did you, President Polk.
Speaker 2 (32:26):
And it's funny because he has kind of a pale,
kind of milk toast kind of look to him.
Speaker 1 (32:32):
Something almost puritanical period exactly.
Speaker 2 (32:35):
So you know, I could see him wanting to be
uncontroversial and some of the stuff that we're talking about,
especially like the whole you know, Mexican American War and
manifest destiny and all that. You know, we like California,
but not the most popular political stance these days. Right,
let's just go take you know, from beyond our Borders.
Speaker 1 (32:53):
Oh yeah, and Noel, what do you think about this
quotation the world has nothing to fear from military ambition
in our government?
Speaker 2 (33:02):
How about that one? Either. Let us know what your
favorite James K. Polk quote is and hey, any historical
figure send us quotes. We'll read them on the air.
We'll have a new section in the show called quote Corner.
I'm just spitballing here. You can put corner behind anything
and it can be a segment. But write to us.
We are ridiculous at HowStuffWorks dot com. You can also
find us on Facebook, Twitter, or we are Ridiculous History
(33:23):
and check us out on iTunes and leave us a
review Apple Podcast rather excuse me. We appreciate it and
that kind of helps discoverability of the show. Go up
or anywhere else you listen to podcast. Just write us
a note if you dig the show. We really appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (33:37):
And perhaps not most importantly, but let's put it in
the top five. There a James K. Polk themed poke
bowl place or a Pokemon themed poke bowl place.
Speaker 2 (33:48):
Let us know. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the
iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your
favorite shows.
Ridiculous History News
Hosts And Creators
Ben Bowlin
Noel Brown
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