January 16, 2024 • 48 mins
Nowadays it feels like everyone has a baseball cap at home... even though most of the folks wearing them do not, in fact, play baseball. So how did this one type of hat become so ubiquitous -- not just in the US, but the rest of the world? To answer the question, Ben, Noel and Max travel back to the early (hatless) days of baseball, following its evolution to the modern day.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. Welcome back to
(00:27):
the show Ridiculous Historians. Thank you, as always so much
for tuning in. Tip of the cap to our super producer,
mister Max Williams oh Man.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
You know, I had this whole like fantasy that I
was gonna bring in an example of every one of
the hats we talk about today from my collection and like,
you know, show them to you guys. This is a snapback.
Speaker 3 (00:50):
This is a trucker whatever.
Speaker 2 (00:52):
This is a fitted. I mean not that you guys
didn't know, but I really wanted to do a bit
and I just didn't do it.
Speaker 3 (00:56):
It's cold, I have a headache, but it's.
Speaker 2 (00:59):
The thought that counts.
Speaker 3 (01:00):
I do love a baseball cap.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
You have a hat on at least? Well, this is
not This is a beanie. This is a beanie though
Ben's the only one on brand with his proper atl
represent hat. What do you call that, Ben? Is that
a fitted? Hata?
Speaker 1 (01:15):
This is a fitted. This is what they would sell
at Lidd's. Got this from my fantastic friend, the mayor
of Ponce, Harold. You can find him as number four
are locals on a vote Instagram. Yeah, I'd vote for
him too, at least for comptroller, because I don't really
understand I voted well, okay, oh great, Well, God knows
(01:37):
Atlanta needs the help. I am Ben Bollen, joined with
the one and only mister Noel Brown, a man of
many hats, and today we are bringing to you, fellow
ridiculous historians, something that we have idly speculated on off
air for quite some time. Baseball caps. Baseball caps are
(01:57):
freaking everywhere, right, And the weird thing is most people
who wear them spoiler don't actually play baseball, have you know?
Speaker 2 (02:04):
Man? It's sort of like me and all my Vans stuff.
I don't know if I told you guys this. I
went into a Vans store and I bought this Van's
jacket and I was wearing my Vans slip ons and
a Van's little bag. And the guy very sort of
snarkily said, all you need now is a skateboard, bro, remember, yeah?
And I was like, you know what, Van's is more
(02:25):
of a lifestyle brand at this point, my guy. And
that's the same with baseball. No one's gonna gonna rag
you for wearing a baseball cap if you're not like
a slugger.
Speaker 1 (02:34):
Right, right, right. You don't have to be Mickey Mantle there,
go to casual wear. These days, a baseball cap is
a fashion statement. It's a multi billion dollar industry. And
even people who don't give a flip about since we're
family show, who don't give a flip about baseball, will
probably have a baseball cap in their house somewhere in
(02:57):
the Western world because it's perfect for yardwork.
Speaker 2 (03:00):
It's a functional item. It shields your eyes from the
sude if it's if you live in places like you know, Georgia,
for example, where it gets blazing hot, that sun will
fry pale vampiric, you know, creatures like the Three of Us. No, no,
on the sun. It's not my fault.
Speaker 3 (03:16):
I'm Swedish.
Speaker 1 (03:18):
Do you guys see this freckle? You're you're both? I
think of Northern European extraction. Uh, I am not, but
I do. I do crisp quite quickly. And I've been
deviled because I had to spend some time on my
rooftop recently and the freckles just blossom. I have a
freckle on the tip of my nose right now, and
it's driving me crazy.
Speaker 2 (03:38):
Well, it's driving me gaga because I think it is adorbs.
Speaker 1 (03:42):
Okay, thanks man, No.
Speaker 2 (03:44):
It's true. Man. You know, baseball caps or hats or
whatever there's I mean, people generally just call them baseball
caps are a very universally beloved thing, whether or not
they're using it purely for function. And we have.
Speaker 3 (03:59):
An Tristine's story to explore.
Speaker 1 (04:02):
Let's cast our memories back there, folks, to the early
days of the American institution known as baseball. Now, a
lot of this is going to be old beans for
pal Max. But Noel, did you know that baseball has
this really murky origin.
Speaker 2 (04:21):
It kind of makes sense because it, I don't know,
maybe it feels like the kind of thing that could
be played in various ways, with stuff just kind of
laying around, Like you know, every kid loves to play
with sticks and swing them around, and balls, you know,
were obviously a very early popular toy. So I can
imagine putting one and one together. You take the ball,
(04:44):
you throw up here, you hit it. Wait a minute,
how can we take this a little further? And before
you know it, you've got these kind of parallel versions
of what might resemble today's baseball.
Speaker 4 (04:53):
So what I've learned and just some like you know
fan hood deep dives is there's this concept of this
sport called town ball in New England areas. The reason
we know about this is like changing of laws, so
like people would get together on the weekend and all
going in the middle of town and play ball.
Speaker 2 (05:13):
But changing the laws comes into the puritanical laws.
Speaker 4 (05:16):
Against stuff on Sundays, and that's when they wanted to
play because everyone was more or less off like or dancing.
Speaker 2 (05:24):
So there's these.
Speaker 4 (05:24):
Small like old town laws where they say no activity
outside of town ball is permitted.
Speaker 2 (05:34):
Town ball was deemed spiritually clean enough.
Speaker 4 (05:38):
Yeah, and there's stories of like people playing baseball in
the background of Civil War like battles and stuff.
Speaker 2 (05:44):
It was. It's a strange.
Speaker 1 (05:46):
Puritans were like, this is the this is the game
Jesus would play.
Speaker 2 (05:50):
A million percent. Jesus. He was a pretty good runner probably,
and he liked to hit things something involving sticks. But
we don't have to get boy a bit of a bummer, guys,
spoiler worth But no, seriously, like this early version, you know,
did it involve something resembling bases and the scoring system
(06:10):
of what we know today or that seems like the
kind of aspect much like, you know, the way basketball
evolved even after it left the hands of you know,
the inventor. That's the kind of stuff that changes to
suit the times, you know that to make it more exciting.
Speaker 1 (06:23):
Yeah, it was similar to they did have two opposing teams.
It was similar to the game called rounders. But if
you looked at it now, like if you looked at
the way the game town ball is arranged, then you
would see, like there's there's a sticky evolution, and it's
because the older baton ball games go back for centuries,
(06:47):
your earlier point. Somebody finds a stick somewhat invents a
recreational ball, it doesn't take long. I there's a French
manuscript from like thirteen forty four that shows a game
called Las Soul, which is probably one of the many
things that informed the town ball of the of the
(07:07):
immigrants who came to the United States, and I think
town ball was it was called Philly ball or Philly
town ball for a second.
Speaker 3 (07:15):
Philly like Philadelphia.
Speaker 1 (07:17):
Yeah, it's a town that loves name and stuff.
Speaker 2 (07:19):
They do, really do. Philly's an awesome city, you know.
But even the part you said about the game rounders,
you know, you can see all kinds of analogs to
that aspect of the game, and things even like Duck
Duck Goose, or like children's sort of nursery rhyme type games,
things where you're rounding certain set locations, or even like tag.
You know, And again we're not here to litigate the
(07:40):
entire history of all games, but it does appear that
there are little snippets of things that could have just
kind of sprung from people's surroundings that are the basis
of a lot of the games that we know today.
Speaker 1 (07:51):
Sure, yeah, man, that's beautifully put. And to Max's point,
this was a situation wherein the rules for or one
kind of bat and ball game in one town may
not be the same in another locale. And what another
thing that didn't happen yet at this point in time
(08:11):
was the idea of uniforms. People just had free time,
and if they're sometimes puritantical social orders were okay with it,
they would show up with whatever clothing they had access.
Speaker 2 (08:23):
To, hair shirts and skins. Yeah, that was a religious
sports joke, which is the origin of the mascot. The
hairshirt was not a thing that like, it was like
a garment that Puritans wore to frustrate themselves. I don't
know if I don't remember if it was Puritans, but
it was definitely a really itchy discussed It's a very
(08:43):
unpleasant shirt's intentionally uncomfortable. Yeah, it's sort of the idea
of self flagellation, but a little bit like more minor
kinds of you know, let me make myself eternally uncomfortable,
but not necessarily whip.
Speaker 1 (08:54):
Myself mortification and penance.
Speaker 4 (08:56):
It's not very comfortable. Like this beautiful baseball roto where
shirt that I'm wearing right now. If you want cool
baseball shirts getting from rodal Wear. They are not paying
us for this.
Speaker 1 (09:04):
Okay, Wow, Okay, Okay, let's get Max some shirts.
Speaker 2 (09:08):
Max with the facts and it's true. Uniforms were not
(09:35):
a thing. Therefore, there was no need for a head
worn piece of accoutrement. Yet, you know, to be a
part of that ensemble.
Speaker 1 (09:45):
Yeah. The earliest what we could call the earliest modern
baseball teams start to agglomerate around eighteen hundred, and then
the National League is formed in eighteen seventy six, and
even then, no state hats. You just most people again
to the point of function, they're going to wear some
sort of hat with a brim just to keep that
(10:08):
sun out of their eyes. We went to MLB dot
com where they have this great interview with a guy
named Tom Scheiber who's the senior curator for the National
Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum, and he kind of
he talks about it in a couple of different ways,
and he says, look, the New York wait for it, knickerbockers.
(10:30):
We brought back knickerbockers.
Speaker 2 (10:32):
Ah, we had to thought it was done.
Speaker 1 (10:34):
Huh, such a great word.
Speaker 2 (10:36):
They were, according to MLB dot com, the first team
to have an official uniform. But you mentioned the idea
of people wearing bringing their own kind of brimmed hat
from home. That would more likely have been something resembling
sort of a floppy beach hat or like a farmer's
straw hat or something right.
Speaker 1 (10:54):
Or barbershop quartet hat.
Speaker 3 (10:56):
He go, yes, one of those flat top ones.
Speaker 2 (10:58):
Those are great. I just pictured like a stand in
a parade. I do love a parade. But yeah, at
this point they were wearing what would be called at
the time chip hats or of course straw hats. But
these would have been brimmed, you know, in three hundred
and sixty degrees.
Speaker 1 (11:13):
Yeah, and let's go to Charles A. Peverly. He wrote
a book called the Book of American Pastimes in eighteen
sixty six, and he says, look the Knickerbockers over in
New York. They said, we need uniforms. So they have
blue woolen pantaloons, another beautiful word. They have white flannel shirts.
And then they had like you described Noel, the chip,
(11:35):
and the chip was seriously, it was like this old
school straw hat, flat flat atop or flat crowned, and
then with that three hundred and sixty degree brim. And
all I can imagine is that they would play baseball
and then go sing at the barber shop. We don't
know if that's true, but that's how I'd like to
(11:55):
picture it.
Speaker 2 (11:56):
They definitely had the mustaches for it, likely at this time,
and riding their Penny Farthing bicycles around town. But you
could you can picture already what the issues might be.
You know, straw hat is not particularly durable. I mean
it is relatively durable, I guess for the rain over
top the rain, and yeah, we would in one strand
(12:17):
can come freight and then all of a sudden the
whole thing comes apart. But most importantly it was about
the tightness of the fit, and also that three hundred
and sixty degrees of brim gives the wind three hundred
and sixty degrees of surface area to blast that thing
off your head or just you know, knocking it off
by doing a slide or whatever it might be. There's
an a number of ways you could have an embarrassing wardrobe malfunction, diving.
Speaker 1 (12:40):
For a ball, you know, next thing you know, you've
you've lost your cap, you've lost your hat.
Speaker 2 (12:46):
Worse than a cowboy fallen off his horse.
Speaker 3 (12:48):
I mean, that's bad, very embarrassing.
Speaker 1 (12:51):
It's worse than a clown without the right shoes or
without their pink limitade.
Speaker 2 (12:56):
Oh boy.
Speaker 1 (12:57):
No, So this uh, this uniful stuff is important because
it also functions as a sort of proof of membership.
Instead of an ID card, you would see the uniform,
me like, oh, that guy's for the he plays for
the Brooklyn Excelsiors. That's a real thing. Yeah, well, yeah,
they're real. They're a real team.
Speaker 2 (13:17):
And wasn't that what's his name? Marvel Guy's favorite word, Stanley.
He would always sign everything with excelsior. Doesn't it just
mean kind of excellence, just like yeah, fabulousness. Yeah, and
it's a good name for a team, right, definitely. So
it would have been a word in popular use at
the time too, right. That strikes me as the way
(13:40):
that stan Lee was probably a lad. He probably attended
some of these games.
Speaker 1 (13:44):
You know, tan Lee is eternal, so so this is Oh,
excelsior is also a word for type of wood shaving.
Oh yeah, etymology is so weird, man.
Speaker 3 (13:57):
And it's also a good medication for if you have
an upset tummy.
Speaker 1 (14:00):
Is that true?
Speaker 3 (14:01):
No, that's alcus Elzer.
Speaker 2 (14:04):
You had me. That was good.
Speaker 3 (14:07):
So this Max made the deepest cringe I've ever seen.
Speaker 1 (14:10):
Just yeah, he's holding I know what that hand signal means,
by the way, Max, I get it. So the we'll
call it a victory sign since where family shows. So
this team, if we fast forward to the eighteen sixties,
let's get to the Excelsiors. They first wore what we
(14:33):
would call the predecessor of the modern baseball cap. But
this was a little more floppity, kind of like a
deflated soufle or a beret.
Speaker 3 (14:42):
It's called like a chef cap that's sort of flopped
over like.
Speaker 1 (14:45):
A tiny you like a tiny leady.
Speaker 2 (14:47):
Chef, tiny floppy beret. Who came up with this didn't
berets already exist. Surely they had examples to turn to
that would have generated something less awkward than that, I
guess not. I mean, that's right here in the history.
Speaker 1 (14:59):
Hat technology was in its infancy, et cetera.
Speaker 2 (15:03):
Yeah. It's funny though, because we think of hats, you know,
as in popular you know, culture and history, as being
something that you wore to look fancy, and it wasn't
necessarily something you wore in a fight or like in battle.
That's what helmets were for, you know. So it does
make sense that they had a little bit of I guess,
growing pains when it came to figuring out the right
type of hat that would be you know, suited for
(15:25):
this kind of sport.
Speaker 3 (15:26):
Trial and error.
Speaker 2 (15:28):
They obviously decided, no, we're not doing helmets, guys, we're
not doing helmets. Because you know, football was a thing,
American football with those leather type helmets, and you wonder
why they didn't go with that with baseball. They decided
they wanted to differentiate themselves as a sport perhaps I'm
just conjecturing.
Speaker 1 (15:45):
Well, yeah, I mean, let's also consider that the baseball glove,
which is biquitous today on the field, wasn't a thing
when baseball first year round. In fact, it was considered
unmanly an unsportsmanlike to use a glove.
Speaker 4 (16:00):
And to continue on Nole's point there, it wasn't until
the nineteen hundreds that they started wearing helmets when they batted, right, Yeah, And.
Speaker 2 (16:08):
I don't know if you know anything about the history
of football, Max, but like that movie Leatherheads, you know,
that era seems roughly around this time we're talking, but
that was probably a little more early nineteen hundreds too.
So I wonder if early football they weren't they were
wearing helmets for a while, because you know, that's obviously
always been a bit of a controversy with that sport
about head injuries. It it would definitely be like, oh,
we gotta wear helmets.
Speaker 4 (16:28):
So the first widely believed to be the first like
organized football game is Rutgers versus Princeton, all New Jersey
at time, which is November sixth, eighteen sixty nine.
Speaker 2 (16:40):
Okay, so we're the same ballpark.
Speaker 4 (16:42):
Yeah, but leather helmets was around for way later than
you think. I think we're talking good bit like they
were wearing helmets in baseball before they got actual real
helmets in football. Okay, that makes sense too, that makes
but football was also very different back then, very much
that football was not.
Speaker 1 (17:00):
Was it rough just fewer commercials it was.
Speaker 4 (17:04):
Uh, it was more similar to rugby, and there wasn't
like the forward passing game was a relatively recent development.
It's a lot more running around people, Like the big
guys in the field are like two hundred and ten
silence or more, do you think.
Speaker 1 (17:21):
Also, also, wearing a hat in Western society at this
time is considered sort of derriga. If you are absolutely
a person who is not a passive trash, yeah, you're
supposed to have a hat. So it makes sense all.
Speaker 2 (17:35):
The time, like you know, hat in hand expressions like that,
I mean to me, cap and all that exactly.
Speaker 1 (17:42):
So these uh, these these excelsior folks in Brooklyn, they
are first to the plate with the idea of matching hats,
but they are not by any means alone. There are
also groups like the New York Mutuals. This team says,
we like this whole a different time. These teams like, yeah,
(18:03):
these teams, I mean, good on them for not picking
some terrible racial thing. But they they said, Okay, we
like this idea. We like the idea of these floppity caps.
The Marino cap becomes the number one go to choice.
There has always been an attempt at monopolization of the
baseball cap, and all these caps were made by a
(18:26):
sporting goods company in New York named Peck and Snyder.
They sold a cap called the Number one. It costs
between a dollar twenty five and two bucks. So if
you look at to get a sense of it, this
is around like let's do a boot, let's do an
inflation calculator, huh.
Speaker 3 (18:46):
And a dude and a boop.
Speaker 1 (18:51):
So in just for funzies in eighteen sixty or so,
two dollars then is worth about seventy six dollars and
thirty one cents today. So these were not cheap for people,
but they were official.
Speaker 2 (19:05):
Yeah, no, no, And I just googled marino caps kind
of wanted to see what it looked like. And if
I'm correct, there's a bunch of different ones and it's
obviously you know, a long time ago, but it's probably
become a brand as well. But it looks a lot
like the kind of hat slash helmets that jockeys wore. Yes,
And when I was looking through this research material originally,
that seems so obvious when you think about it, that
(19:28):
they borrowed the design from horse racing.
Speaker 3 (19:31):
But I never would have put the two together, you know,
because it's almost a.
Speaker 2 (19:34):
Little bit more of a nub of a brim rather
than like the longer brim that you know that it
kind of evolved into. But that was a real aha
moment for him, like, oh, of course, yes, jockeys have
been doing the single outward brim and yeah, I mean
definitely older than we're talking here, dating back to around
the late seventeenth century.
Speaker 1 (19:53):
And you can see versions of that specific type of
hat in bicycling communities today, going to be rounded, fitting
close to the crown. It has that abbreviated bill that
goes a little bit down. And this is also the
era when people start wearing what you might think of
as valet caps, like the flat topped cylindrical things that
(20:16):
still have a bill. The Marino cap number one by
Pecken Snyder is the gold standard for a while, and
if we fast forward to nineteen hundred, it becomes known
as the Brooklyn style cap. And this the big breakthrough
for all of this stuff is that directional bill, the
bill that just covers over the front of your face
(20:39):
instead of all the way around. And now you know what,
Let's go to a quote from our pal Tom he
talks about I just love his conversational tone, you guys.
He has a great quotation about the horse racing that
you're mentioning though.
Speaker 2 (20:56):
Yeah, and he's specifically referring to just the fact that
by a little later in the eighteen fifties, you had
more images of this stuff that we could refer back to.
So he says, you're definitely seeing people wearing what you
and I would think of as a baseball cap, which
is a crown with a bill that comes out just
one direction instead of all the way around. This is
not a particularly groundbreaking object. Really, something like that had
(21:17):
been worn in horse racing by jockeys for many years.
We call it a baseball cap because we're Americans and
it's just been associated with baseball for a long time.
Little micro snark there.
Speaker 1 (21:27):
I thought you guys would like that. Max, I saw
you laughing.
Speaker 2 (21:30):
But It's not like it was invented for baseball. The
cat had just been around a very long time, which
makes sense. We do that all the time with stuff,
you know, the victor, the victor go, the spoils and
all of that. Right, whatever thing gets associated with a
thing in a bigly enough way, that becomes the thing
that people you know, think of first. And often what
it's called.
Speaker 1 (21:51):
History is written by the winners, right, history is history
is retold by the victors. And this is true in
so many as The name I was trying to look
for earlier was pillbox. The pillbox version of the cap
becomes popular in the late eighteen eighties, and then that ultimately,
(22:12):
I don't know why I'm mapping this out on my
own cap right now, but that ultimately gives way to
the sort of six paneled round baseball cap so ubiquitous today.
Speaker 2 (22:24):
Dude Pecken Snyder as a brand still around, Yeah, and
they deal in kind of vintage style baseball caps. So
they also make jackets and sweatshirts and sweatpants, pretty pricey stuff.
A New York Bulldog hooded sweatshirt nineteen forty nine, one
hundred and sixty two dollars and it appears that it's
one of those brands like Supreme or whatever where you
(22:45):
go to their website and everything's just marked sold out
right right right, So it's like, thank you for the
helpful listings.
Speaker 3 (22:52):
Well, they've relaunched.
Speaker 1 (22:53):
They make sense they went dark. They relaunched in twenty
twenty because of the nostalgia and the interest in that,
and that's why you can you can still see some
teams playing in old school baseball uniforms. It's a big draw.
Speaker 2 (23:06):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (23:07):
Actually to that point, I just sent in the chat
here the twenty seventeen Pittsburgh Pirates hat, because Pittsburgh Pirates
is like in one of the original NL teams they've
been around for or not original, there's no original NL
teams like the al. The Ale had like eight teams
that came out, but they were really old school team
and so they brought back the pillbox hats, which is
just like, I have my feelings about the Pittsburgh Pirates.
(23:29):
I will not air them here, but I like them.
I like I like Pittsburgh Pirate fans. Let's just say,
but yeah, and I like players on the team. It's
not the problem. We can probably figure out my lemonade.
Speaker 1 (23:41):
Yeah, I can kind of tell. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (23:43):
I think they're just a cool team. They have beautiful ballpark,
and like this is like a hat I would love
to have because it's such a cool hat.
Speaker 1 (23:49):
Because you want to look like you work on a train.
Speaker 2 (23:52):
Yeah, what'd you think? I would say? It?
Speaker 1 (23:55):
There funny, I know, funny part funny at side about Pittsburgh.
So I was there on a weird on a weird
mission for a different show called Stuff They Want You
to Know. I was very cold and I had to
put on I went to the hotel and I was like,
I under a misunderestimated the weather, and I got a
(24:18):
hoodie that just had you know me, I'm not a
logo guy, So I got a hoodie that just had
a pee on it. I didn't know it was the
Pittsburgh Pirates. And I went to like, I went to
one of the only places open late at night to
get food, which was a dive bar, and this bartender
instantly became friends with me. It was like, not a
lot of people have the sand to wear that hoodie
(24:40):
around me around these questions, except in a Pittsburgh accent.
Speaker 4 (24:44):
I mean, like, you know, like Pittsburgh's one of those cities,
the chart's very much the same way. Cleveland's the same
way where their teams are like the number one team dining,
you know, Atlanta's kind of that way. But that was
Midwestern teams. Oh, they love their baseball teams, they do.
Speaker 1 (24:58):
And it's no surprise that this this hat still has
an evolution to go through because as surprise as weird
as it is to point this out, at this time,
no team had a logo on their hat yet. It
was just a color that was the differentiation. It wasn't
until eighteen ninety four, when the then Boston Braves put
(25:23):
letter forms on their caps that people started saying, okay,
let's get some branding on here.
Speaker 2 (25:29):
You know, it makes me picture the letterman's jackets of
you know, Ivy League colleges and universities and all of
that stuff. And I believe that stuff dates back to
the mid to lay eighteen hundreds as well. So it
almost seems like these things were happening concurrently and then
maybe one sort of influenced the other as they started
to evolve, because I guess it probably wasn't until the
(25:52):
fifties or so that like high school letterman jackets became
a thing, you know, with varsity cheerleaders and the like.
Speaker 1 (25:58):
You know, it's such a feat loop, right, These things
feed onto each other. Think about this. If you're a
fan of your local sports team in any decade, especially
before this, this kind of merchandise came out. That is
the coolest flex for you to show up with them
on your shirt, or to show up and say, hey,
(26:19):
I've got a hat from the Boston Braves And someone says,
won't they move to Atlanta later? And you say, I
don't know, carpet, Yeah.
Speaker 4 (26:26):
They got to stop in Milwaukee at some point, sure,
But you know, of course there's that like it.
Speaker 2 (26:32):
It makes you feel connected with the players too, because
you're oftentimes wearing the same You can buy the same
one that they wear by the same jerseys. That's why
those things, you know, the nice ones go for a
pretty penny. But that is the flex in and of
itself to be like, I'm on the team too, you know.
Speaker 1 (26:47):
So by just one year after eighteen ninety four, I
don't know why I said it that way. Eighteen ninety five,
three more teams, three more teams have done the same thing.
Fast forward, it's nineteen oh one. This is another Easter
egg for U Max. The Detroit Tigers are officially the
first major league team to put a mascot on their caps.
(27:10):
It only lasts for a little bit because, like I
think two years later they say, man, mascot, that's really
that's busy, you know, that's just the design is complicated.
Speaker 2 (27:21):
Let's just put a D on there, D for Detroit,
just to D this is the big D. Give them
the big D, y'all. That's all we need for Detroit.
I mean, that's still what they rock to this day.
But also as an additional note, if it's nineteen oh
one American League just did this off off top a head,
that would be their first season too. So they walked
in there because this is what we're doing. They're coming
(27:42):
in a loud and processsh and I believe they're also
using that sick, classic old English font, that kind of Gothic,
kind of very seraphy font. And that's the thing that
is the very definition of branding. Taking a letter that
belongs to literally everyone, yeah, and making it yours and
making it associate, you know, with you and your whole thing.
(28:04):
That is brilliant and everybody couldn't do that. You know.
I mean, you had to be kind of first to
market to be able to claim the D.
Speaker 1 (28:12):
We could do it like we.
Speaker 2 (28:13):
Get the A here in Atlanta, and that people say it.
When people say the A, they are referring to Atlanta.
Speaker 1 (28:18):
That's also how we know you're not from here.
Speaker 2 (28:21):
But that's also true.
Speaker 3 (28:22):
But people do say that outside also Hotlanta.
Speaker 2 (28:24):
We don't like that, y'all.
Speaker 3 (28:25):
We don't think it's funny. It's a big cringe.
Speaker 2 (28:28):
If you're a band and you say Hotlanta, right, those
sounds emanating from the audience, and they're they're they're cringes.
Speaker 1 (28:35):
A friend of mine she got back into online dating,
and she told me that the most obnoxious like online
dating is apparently a minefield. I've never done it, as
you guys know, but like she was telling me that
she had learned these weird red flags, and one of
them dating in Atlanta was when a guy she was
(28:57):
going to meet was like, I love the atl Atlanta.
It's like one you're not from here too. I don't
think we get along.
Speaker 2 (29:04):
I will say atl in texts and as an abbreviation,
but I'll also say NYC or LA or SF. But
I wouldn't speak SF out loud or say ATL out loud.
These are shorthands for brevity. San fran Sand's even worse.
But yeah, let's get to Jim Lilllyfores and ball Cap Nation,
(29:27):
a journey through the world of America's national hat, national hat.
Speaker 3 (29:33):
That's great.
Speaker 2 (29:34):
He gives a lot of reasons to the rising popularity
of the baseball hat and its adoption as like we
were talking about at the top of the show, more
of a lifestyle brand. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (29:46):
Yeah, So that's the big question, right. We know it
has functionality for baseball players, we know it functions on
several levels. But why did it become a thing? Why
do the majority of people buying and war baseball caps
now have nothing to do with baseball?
Speaker 3 (30:03):
It's this is weird.
Speaker 1 (30:06):
It's kind of the same reason that smoking became popular. Because, yeah,
because baseball hits television. Television is invented by Philip Farnsworth.
He never really gets credit for it, but television explodes,
and so does the American obsession with baseball. Now you
(30:26):
can watch it, you don't have to drive into town.
So folks began wanting that association we're talking about. We
want to show support for our teams through their hats.
It's being depicted as cool. Also, baseball caps start going
to other non sports shows on television and in film.
Tom Selleck has a baseball cap on Magnum p I
(30:49):
mcgiver has a baseball cap. And mcguiver's awesome guys.
Speaker 2 (30:52):
He has mode. He does all kind There was this
one episode. I've probably talked about this before, maybe when
mcgiver came up with this one episode. It's burned into
my memory. He does something to the like junction box
at a at a busy intersection where he opens it
up and like monkeys with it a little bit, and
it causes a giant pilotup accident, and he's doing it
(31:14):
to create a diversion. And I'm just like mcguy for
that is not cool. He could have hurt some minist
and bystanders. Of course, nobody gets hurt. But he didn't know.
I mean, I thought that was a little bit an
anarchist cookbook of him.
Speaker 3 (31:27):
Yeah, oh, I like that reference stool. Yeah, mcguiver.
Speaker 1 (31:30):
There's a lot to say about him. He also did
clearly continue like propagating interest in the baseball cap.
Speaker 2 (31:38):
There were pilots right, you know, specifically in pop culture,
like Tom Cruise, the coolest guy around at the time.
Speaker 1 (31:46):
Even now, every single Marvel movie character who needs to
travel incognito or in disguise, they've got a baseball cap
and sunglasses. Take that, Clark Kent. Yeah, same with celebrities
in general.
Speaker 2 (31:59):
You'll often see like paparazzi photos, you know, on TMZ
or whatever of like, you know, Nick Nolty, what am
I saying, Nick Nolty, what is it at the airport?
You know, with a hat like a like a baseball
cap and sunware. Michael Jackson used to do it. I
mean it was pretty much the disguise Derrek Gore. But
(32:19):
it makes sense functionally for that too, because you can
pull that brim down and it shadows your face.
Speaker 1 (32:25):
You know, Anthony Mackie, I think we were we were
flying out of Texas or.
Speaker 3 (32:29):
Something that's on the plane, and he was certainly wearing
a hat.
Speaker 1 (32:32):
So there's also another thing that occurs in this midiu.
In the nineteen sixties, agriculture companies start saying, hey, this
is this could be another business card for us. This
is a great way to advertise stuff like John Deere.
Yeah exactly. And today those.
Speaker 2 (32:51):
That hipsters will end up wearing them ironically later.
Speaker 1 (32:54):
And they'll still pay money. Because money is spent ironically
or unronically, still much still matters.
Speaker 2 (33:01):
So just like an action done long enough ironically just
becomes a thing you do right.
Speaker 1 (33:06):
And that's why agricultural companies are the basis of what
we call trucker hats today, which are sort of a
kissing cousin of the baseball cat, like alligators, crocodiles, crows, ravens,
the very very similar. And so with this the cap
becomes more and more mainstream and the men and women
start to play with it for style. This is where you, oh,
(33:29):
I'm going to do it. This is just for the
like the four of us because we're not a visual podcast,
but this is where you get it turned to the
side and like it looks like.
Speaker 2 (33:37):
With your hands on your headphones like that, it just
like you're making some sick beats.
Speaker 3 (33:41):
You're ready to like spit some fire bars.
Speaker 2 (33:45):
But that's the thing though, I mean in hip hop
culture too, the hat and the baseball hat, whether it
be sports related or just kind of like cool streetwear
brand related, it is a huge part of that uniform.
And not to mention that like a lot of British
urban Britage kids also developed, you know, started wearing it
around the time of like grime music and a lot
(34:06):
of the kind of electronic hip hop stuff, kind of
crossover stuff of the early two thousands and beyond in
the UK.
Speaker 1 (34:13):
Oh yeah, man, And that point about musicians is excellent.
Punk rockers are wearing baseball hats. Grunge singers in the
nineties are wearing baseball hats. Pop stars are showing up
to seeing the national anthem with surprise baseball cap. It's
just the marketing is there, and this means that it
gets incredibly popular. It starts to fragment as people take
(34:38):
their own spin on this. And that's why now in
general and we get this. According to our good friends
at Vogue, there are four major types of baseball hat.
We've named each of them kind of in the course
(34:59):
of this episode.
Speaker 3 (35:00):
What is there.
Speaker 1 (35:00):
There's snap back, adjustable, flex fit, fitted, full disclosure, or
pal nol has an example of all of these. Because
you're a man of many hats, I like hats, and
I was thinking back, you know, and researching this episode
about like when did I make the conscious decision to
become a hat guy, Like a baseball hat guy. And
I remember around roughly around the time, and it wasn't
(35:23):
because of anything functional. I just decided one day I
was playing in bands and stuff like I'm gonna be
a guy that wears hats. And for a long time
I had really long hair too, and I think the
hat started entering my life when I cut my hair short,
and I was like, well, before I had my long hair,
that was my thing, and now I've got hats so
and I've never looked back. I've probably got dozens, and
(35:46):
I've got examples of all of these. The flex fit
is a fun one that I don't have very many of,
but it's sort of a stretch here hat that would
maybe be considered a little sporty or something that's weather proof,
you know, for like hiking and better at soaking up
sweat and not staining, you know, the fabric stuff like that.
Vined kind of somebody to associate with, like an active
wear brand like Lululemon or something. And Max and I
(36:08):
were talking off here too. I was a little bit
surprised because I came in hot, and I was like, Max,
this is gonna be such a great episode, bro, You're
gonna love this. How many baseball caps do you own?
And for anybody who has not had the immense privilege
of seeing our friend Max in person, the guy's got long,
shiny locks of hair. It's very lustrous.
Speaker 4 (36:32):
Yeah, I was telling Ben, I'm like, yeah, I have
hat somewhere, but I haven't cut my hair in five years,
so it's like I can't really wear a hat.
Speaker 2 (36:40):
I mean, I guess put it down. I cook, well,
a hat with a ponytail is definitely a vibe.
Speaker 3 (36:45):
Brother, I'm just sure to put that out.
Speaker 1 (36:46):
That's very much a choice because you got to thread
it through the back.
Speaker 2 (36:50):
Yeah, that's a real thing.
Speaker 4 (36:52):
That's something I can see our long time friend Alan
Finkbeiner doing absolutely absolutely.
Speaker 3 (36:56):
Oh man, Alan, I hope you're enjoying your retirement.
Speaker 2 (36:59):
Alan was our it's been our mutual Sweetwater Sound representative
collectively for about twenty years.
Speaker 3 (37:06):
He's candy without having to buy a gear. No, we
got some gear.
Speaker 2 (37:11):
That's what they do.
Speaker 3 (37:12):
They always appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (37:14):
And we will give you a hat if you want.
What should give ridiculous history hats.
Speaker 2 (37:18):
That'd be great, get old rest bututant on one. I'd
wear that, but with then the fitted hat. You know
what you're wearing, Ben, That is that is also a
fitted hat is kind of considered maybe a more high
end baseball hat because it's a specific size. So oftentimes
you've got to go to a place that has lots
of different options. There's going to be a little bit
more expensive. They're really durable. I only have like one
(37:40):
or two. I think one of them is a Supreme
hat and it has a baseball tie in. I am
not a sports fan, so I don't wear baseball hats
or sports hats. This is the only thing. But I
just really got it because of the logo and the colorway.
But yeah, I'm a big Supreme fan, big Vans hat fan.
Speaker 3 (37:57):
And I just I like those. What are those ones
with the animals on them?
Speaker 2 (38:00):
Ben? You have one? To Goren brothers have a handful
of those. Those are fun, But I just think it's
a fun way to accessorize. You know, I was blessed
with perfect eye sights, so I can't wear glasses, so
I gotta wear hats.
Speaker 1 (38:12):
You can still wear glasses if you want.
Speaker 2 (38:14):
I don't know, man, that's sort of like wearing a hat.
Speaker 1 (38:16):
And we'll stop a lot of people.
Speaker 3 (38:18):
Jersey if you're not really a follower of that scene.
Speaker 1 (38:20):
I will, I will do that. That is one of
the This is like a bowling key to insulating or like,
I don't want to make it sound insidious, but to
fitting in in a strange place, especially in the United States,
if you want to fit in, no matter your demographic,
wear something from the local sports team and they'll be like,
(38:41):
he gets it.
Speaker 2 (38:42):
That's a good one. And oftentimes too you'll like in
the movie Drive, for example, when you know there's a
huge kind of chase sequence or he's running from the
cops in the very first sequence of the film, which
is great. When he finally does his getaway, he parks
his car at La Dodgers Stadium and gets out right
as all of the sports fans are leaving the game.
(39:03):
He's been listening to it on the radio the whole
time and gets there right as the crowd's letting out,
and then he puts on on LA Dodgers of course
he does.
Speaker 1 (39:11):
Also. Drive is a great film, and I have been
leaning hard on dressing as the protagonist to Drive. Whenever
I'm lazy. Come a Halloween.
Speaker 2 (39:21):
Oh for sure, you got that jacket with the scorpion
and the leather fingerless gloves. All you need now is
a hammer. I'm sure you got a couple of those
laying around. All right, Well, this is not a court,
so we're not going to answer that. What about what
about the snapback? I'm confused between the difference between snapback
and adjustable. They seem like they're a little bit the same.
But I think maybe snapback literally is the plasticky, you know,
(39:44):
buttony thing snap yeah. Other, Yes, the other one might
be one with fabric that you have to cinch through
a little a little buckle belts.
Speaker 1 (39:54):
Belt for your head belts, yeah, a head belt. Finally,
this this stuff is so popular right now that if
we fast forward, even though we're a history show, if
we fast forward to the future, we can tell you
that despite a global pandemic, the global the world baseball
cap market was seventeen point ninety billion dollars in twenty
(40:19):
twenty one. By twenty twenty nine, it's going to be
twenty five point six four billion dollars. And there is
one company in particular that is super happy about that
news because they are making a lot of that money.
Speaker 2 (40:33):
That's right. Since nineteen ninety three, the new era cap
company in Buffalo, New York, has been the exclusive cap
provider for Major League Baseball. So there's money in them.
Speaker 1 (40:47):
Is money in those crowds.
Speaker 2 (40:48):
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (40:49):
I have a hard time with monopolies. I think we
all do. It reminds me of like the one place
that gets the mud for baseballs. Sure, so I'm talking
about I guess.
Speaker 3 (41:00):
So I guess that has made the mud by having
wet cleats.
Speaker 2 (41:03):
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (41:04):
Well, it's like a secret it's mud from a secret location.
Speaker 3 (41:07):
No joke, no joke.
Speaker 1 (41:08):
This is Max. You're nodding, right, this is true.
Speaker 2 (41:12):
Oh, I'm just gonna take a shot a new era.
That's all I was gonna do. Shot.
Speaker 1 (41:16):
Take it, take a shot.
Speaker 4 (41:17):
So so new era. This goes to the monopoly thing.
Last year, the Atlanta Braves had a new home run celebration.
You guys seeing those hilariously big hats. So you put
it on and it's like this big it's a massive hat,
his hands very far apart. Yes, yes, just type in
on a Brian Robinson big hat. He's a running back
(41:38):
for the Washington Commanders. And so the brands were wearing
these home runs and then new eras like.
Speaker 3 (41:45):
You can't wear that because it's not our hats.
Speaker 2 (41:48):
Make one, may make.
Speaker 1 (41:49):
One then yeah, also era, Also the baseball mud thing
is true. Maybe that's a story for.
Speaker 3 (41:55):
A future episode for sure. Well, speaking of stories to
maybe round out this.
Speaker 2 (41:59):
Episod, Yeah, we've talked about all the different types of hats.
People may be screaming at their podcast device saying what
about them trucker hats? What's the difference? I mean that's
what got me started, honestly too. I'm remembering now when
I started wearing hats. It was in an era where
there were a lot of like kind of cool bands
from like Athens, like the Drive By Truckers and like
(42:20):
bands like Granddaddy that were rock and trucker hats pretty
hard Will co. Yeah, it was just a vibe at
the time, So I think I was like, I want
to be on that, you know, hipster train. It's a
good vibe.
Speaker 3 (42:34):
It is a good vibe. But the trucker hat it's
sort of very much.
Speaker 2 (42:38):
Like the baseball hat, but it just has a plastic
kind of mesh back to it. And that's right. And
you also see some of these design choices being used
in what would be considered basically the lines can be blurry.
Speaker 1 (42:52):
I think it's such a it's it's like the what
is a sandwich question?
Speaker 2 (42:57):
That's one we still don't know.
Speaker 1 (42:59):
We still uh And I actually I read a mathematical
paper about the definition of a sandwich.
Speaker 2 (43:07):
God's work.
Speaker 1 (43:07):
This job is so weird. But uh but yeah, these
these hats are these hats I saw, like that guy,
what was that movie? Stand and deliver these kids and
I know that one he saves the school.
Speaker 2 (43:21):
I think that's so thank you.
Speaker 1 (43:23):
So the uh, the Edward James almost it's all coming
back to me. You remember him, the actor.
Speaker 2 (43:28):
He was Edward James almost a pretty good actor. Oh wow,
oh wow, he's actually good. I had to do it.
But you know, those those design features of the the
humble trucker hat, we're all created for specific reasons. It
feels functions like the mesh was for breatheability. The foam
added a little bit of structure and stability and also
(43:50):
makes the hat keep its shape. Also gives a nice
solid foundation. They're they're taller trucker. Trucker hats are typically
a little bit high, high higher above your your forehead,
and the foam also gave a nice solid foundation for
the logos. And again, much like that, I would consider
the John Deere type hats that we're talking about earlier
to be more in the vein of a trucker hat.
(44:12):
Sure they were, those were.
Speaker 3 (44:14):
Meant to be worn by workmen, you know, like a
Carhart hat.
Speaker 2 (44:17):
That's yeah, yeah, isn't it funny how car Hearts now
also become this weird lifestyle I'm wearing No, I'm not
wearing a car hert hat right now. But there's like
there's car Heart stores in like Soho in New York.
You know, it's a total hipster mecca kind of brand.
You see it the celebrities all the time.
Speaker 1 (44:33):
That takes us to the larger thing. We see this
in food and cuisine as well. I'm just very excited
about some barbecue ler today. It's which is the thing
that would be considered traditionally working class or even lower class,
it becomes elevated, it becomes hoot cuisine like uh, like
New York went through this whole Ballooney sandwich phase. And
(44:54):
and we see that, I argue in fashion as well.
Speaker 3 (44:57):
Plused up trash food or trash fashion.
Speaker 2 (45:01):
Yeah, because then you had like Von Dutch, you know,
all of these kind of big like hip La brands
or whatever. I mean, arguably hip. I think they're kind
of done now, but there was a big period of
time where like justin Timberlake and Britney Spears and that
whole set, we're wearing these Von Dutch hats which were
trucker hats. I think it's actually a documentary about the
rise and fall of that company. I think something weird happened,
(45:22):
like the owners or the founders were like sketchy in
some way. But point is the other feature is the
snappy snap thing that makes it adjustable because you know
some some truckers heads are bigger than others. Yes, yes
I'm not a trucker, but I typically have to wear
my snappy snaps on, like the last two snaps. I
(45:43):
got a pretty big noggin.
Speaker 1 (45:44):
So this is that that goes back to the idea
of one size fits all. It means you can buy
there's another ubiquity or another advantage to the baseball cap
in general. Outside of the fitted, A lot of these
will be adjustable for old host any headsize. So you
can be a kid who wants to rep your your
(46:05):
team and your heroes, and that that hat can fit YouTube,
which is really cool. Even it's super cute. You know,
when it looks like kind of big.
Speaker 2 (46:13):
Kind of big, I think it's cool.
Speaker 1 (46:15):
Yeah, like you got this little guy.
Speaker 3 (46:17):
It's not considered like embarrassing or off working.
Speaker 1 (46:20):
It's cool, it's endearing. And so with that, of course,
we're I think we've done a good job of not
fanboying too much about hats.
Speaker 3 (46:30):
I love hats.
Speaker 1 (46:32):
We also know, thankfully that we are not getting Max
a baseball hat for his birthday. I thought Max with
the hats, I thought it was a real I thought
it was a real home run. But but I was incorrect. Anyway,
(46:54):
we hope you.
Speaker 2 (46:55):
Enjoyly walk that one in. Wow.
Speaker 1 (46:57):
Max turned off his camera and then turned it back
onto Layer at me for that one. I can't wait
for the sound cue boy. I also can't wait for
our next episode this week, where we're going to talk
about one of the most continually fascinating presidents in the
history of the United States, the one and only, famously
(47:20):
uh famously talkative Calvin Coolidge.
Speaker 2 (47:24):
Accent on the cool yes, yes accent.
Speaker 1 (47:28):
He's the coolest Calvin in town. Uh, he's probably heard.
Speaker 3 (47:31):
Calvin Klein was literative.
Speaker 2 (47:34):
That was great.
Speaker 1 (47:35):
You've also probably heard of the religion that was started
just to worship this guy, Calvinism. Don't fat check us fat, big, big,
big thanks to super producer mister Max Williams. Big big
thanks of course to uh a special announcement. We dragged
this guy so hard, but big big sincere shout out
(47:58):
to our dear friend Jonathan Strickland aka the Quist. Nobody
tell him we were nice to him, not even once
on the show. Okay, that dies with us.
Speaker 2 (48:09):
Huge nights Chris Frosciotis and his fresh wizard Beard here
in spirit, Eves, Jeff Codes, Geez, Alex Williams, who composed
this banging theme. Max again, I don't remember if we
do already. You know the thanks is ever present for you,
Max and comes directly from our hearts and to you. Ben.
Speaker 3 (48:28):
This is a fun one.
Speaker 1 (48:29):
Oh hey, right back at you. I am gonna do
the joke again because it's so horrible. Well thanks to
our research associates as well. I think this episode was
a home run.
Speaker 2 (48:41):
Indeed, we'll see you next time, folks. For more podcasts
from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever
you listen to your favorite shows,
Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. Welcome back to
(00:27):
the show Ridiculous Historians. Thank you, as always so much
for tuning in. Tip of the cap to our super producer,
mister Max Williams oh Man.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
You know, I had this whole like fantasy that I
was gonna bring in an example of every one of
the hats we talk about today from my collection and like,
you know, show them to you guys. This is a snapback.
Speaker 3 (00:50):
This is a trucker whatever.
Speaker 2 (00:52):
This is a fitted. I mean not that you guys
didn't know, but I really wanted to do a bit
and I just didn't do it.
Speaker 3 (00:56):
It's cold, I have a headache, but it's.
Speaker 2 (00:59):
The thought that counts.
Speaker 3 (01:00):
I do love a baseball cap.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
You have a hat on at least? Well, this is
not This is a beanie. This is a beanie though
Ben's the only one on brand with his proper atl
represent hat. What do you call that, Ben? Is that
a fitted? Hata?
Speaker 1 (01:15):
This is a fitted. This is what they would sell
at Lidd's. Got this from my fantastic friend, the mayor
of Ponce, Harold. You can find him as number four
are locals on a vote Instagram. Yeah, I'd vote for
him too, at least for comptroller, because I don't really
understand I voted well, okay, oh great, Well, God knows
(01:37):
Atlanta needs the help. I am Ben Bollen, joined with
the one and only mister Noel Brown, a man of
many hats, and today we are bringing to you, fellow
ridiculous historians, something that we have idly speculated on off
air for quite some time. Baseball caps. Baseball caps are
(01:57):
freaking everywhere, right, And the weird thing is most people
who wear them spoiler don't actually play baseball, have you know?
Speaker 2 (02:04):
Man? It's sort of like me and all my Vans stuff.
I don't know if I told you guys this. I
went into a Vans store and I bought this Van's
jacket and I was wearing my Vans slip ons and
a Van's little bag. And the guy very sort of
snarkily said, all you need now is a skateboard, bro, remember, yeah?
And I was like, you know what, Van's is more
(02:25):
of a lifestyle brand at this point, my guy. And
that's the same with baseball. No one's gonna gonna rag
you for wearing a baseball cap if you're not like
a slugger.
Speaker 1 (02:34):
Right, right, right. You don't have to be Mickey Mantle there,
go to casual wear. These days, a baseball cap is
a fashion statement. It's a multi billion dollar industry. And
even people who don't give a flip about since we're
family show, who don't give a flip about baseball, will
probably have a baseball cap in their house somewhere in
(02:57):
the Western world because it's perfect for yardwork.
Speaker 2 (03:00):
It's a functional item. It shields your eyes from the
sude if it's if you live in places like you know, Georgia,
for example, where it gets blazing hot, that sun will
fry pale vampiric, you know, creatures like the Three of Us. No, no,
on the sun. It's not my fault.
Speaker 3 (03:16):
I'm Swedish.
Speaker 1 (03:18):
Do you guys see this freckle? You're you're both? I
think of Northern European extraction. Uh, I am not, but
I do. I do crisp quite quickly. And I've been
deviled because I had to spend some time on my
rooftop recently and the freckles just blossom. I have a
freckle on the tip of my nose right now, and
it's driving me crazy.
Speaker 2 (03:38):
Well, it's driving me gaga because I think it is adorbs.
Speaker 1 (03:42):
Okay, thanks man, No.
Speaker 2 (03:44):
It's true. Man. You know, baseball caps or hats or
whatever there's I mean, people generally just call them baseball
caps are a very universally beloved thing, whether or not
they're using it purely for function. And we have.
Speaker 3 (03:59):
An Tristine's story to explore.
Speaker 1 (04:02):
Let's cast our memories back there, folks, to the early
days of the American institution known as baseball. Now, a
lot of this is going to be old beans for
pal Max. But Noel, did you know that baseball has
this really murky origin.
Speaker 2 (04:21):
It kind of makes sense because it, I don't know,
maybe it feels like the kind of thing that could
be played in various ways, with stuff just kind of
laying around, Like you know, every kid loves to play
with sticks and swing them around, and balls, you know,
were obviously a very early popular toy. So I can
imagine putting one and one together. You take the ball,
(04:44):
you throw up here, you hit it. Wait a minute,
how can we take this a little further? And before
you know it, you've got these kind of parallel versions
of what might resemble today's baseball.
Speaker 4 (04:53):
So what I've learned and just some like you know
fan hood deep dives is there's this concept of this
sport called town ball in New England areas. The reason
we know about this is like changing of laws, so
like people would get together on the weekend and all
going in the middle of town and play ball.
Speaker 2 (05:13):
But changing the laws comes into the puritanical laws.
Speaker 4 (05:16):
Against stuff on Sundays, and that's when they wanted to
play because everyone was more or less off like or dancing.
Speaker 2 (05:24):
So there's these.
Speaker 4 (05:24):
Small like old town laws where they say no activity
outside of town ball is permitted.
Speaker 2 (05:34):
Town ball was deemed spiritually clean enough.
Speaker 4 (05:38):
Yeah, and there's stories of like people playing baseball in
the background of Civil War like battles and stuff.
Speaker 2 (05:44):
It was. It's a strange.
Speaker 1 (05:46):
Puritans were like, this is the this is the game
Jesus would play.
Speaker 2 (05:50):
A million percent. Jesus. He was a pretty good runner probably,
and he liked to hit things something involving sticks. But
we don't have to get boy a bit of a bummer, guys,
spoiler worth But no, seriously, like this early version, you know,
did it involve something resembling bases and the scoring system
(06:10):
of what we know today or that seems like the
kind of aspect much like, you know, the way basketball
evolved even after it left the hands of you know,
the inventor. That's the kind of stuff that changes to
suit the times, you know that to make it more exciting.
Speaker 1 (06:23):
Yeah, it was similar to they did have two opposing teams.
It was similar to the game called rounders. But if
you looked at it now, like if you looked at
the way the game town ball is arranged, then you
would see, like there's there's a sticky evolution, and it's
because the older baton ball games go back for centuries,
(06:47):
your earlier point. Somebody finds a stick somewhat invents a
recreational ball, it doesn't take long. I there's a French
manuscript from like thirteen forty four that shows a game
called Las Soul, which is probably one of the many
things that informed the town ball of the of the
(07:07):
immigrants who came to the United States, and I think
town ball was it was called Philly ball or Philly
town ball for a second.
Speaker 3 (07:15):
Philly like Philadelphia.
Speaker 1 (07:17):
Yeah, it's a town that loves name and stuff.
Speaker 2 (07:19):
They do, really do. Philly's an awesome city, you know.
But even the part you said about the game rounders,
you know, you can see all kinds of analogs to
that aspect of the game, and things even like Duck
Duck Goose, or like children's sort of nursery rhyme type games,
things where you're rounding certain set locations, or even like tag.
You know, And again we're not here to litigate the
(07:40):
entire history of all games, but it does appear that
there are little snippets of things that could have just
kind of sprung from people's surroundings that are the basis
of a lot of the games that we know today.
Speaker 1 (07:51):
Sure, yeah, man, that's beautifully put. And to Max's point,
this was a situation wherein the rules for or one
kind of bat and ball game in one town may
not be the same in another locale. And what another
thing that didn't happen yet at this point in time
(08:11):
was the idea of uniforms. People just had free time,
and if they're sometimes puritantical social orders were okay with it,
they would show up with whatever clothing they had access.
Speaker 2 (08:23):
To, hair shirts and skins. Yeah, that was a religious
sports joke, which is the origin of the mascot. The
hairshirt was not a thing that like, it was like
a garment that Puritans wore to frustrate themselves. I don't
know if I don't remember if it was Puritans, but
it was definitely a really itchy discussed It's a very
(08:43):
unpleasant shirt's intentionally uncomfortable. Yeah, it's sort of the idea
of self flagellation, but a little bit like more minor
kinds of you know, let me make myself eternally uncomfortable,
but not necessarily whip.
Speaker 1 (08:54):
Myself mortification and penance.
Speaker 4 (08:56):
It's not very comfortable. Like this beautiful baseball roto where
shirt that I'm wearing right now. If you want cool
baseball shirts getting from rodal Wear. They are not paying
us for this.
Speaker 1 (09:04):
Okay, Wow, Okay, Okay, let's get Max some shirts.
Speaker 2 (09:08):
Max with the facts and it's true. Uniforms were not
(09:35):
a thing. Therefore, there was no need for a head
worn piece of accoutrement. Yet, you know, to be a
part of that ensemble.
Speaker 1 (09:45):
Yeah. The earliest what we could call the earliest modern
baseball teams start to agglomerate around eighteen hundred, and then
the National League is formed in eighteen seventy six, and
even then, no state hats. You just most people again
to the point of function, they're going to wear some
sort of hat with a brim just to keep that
(10:08):
sun out of their eyes. We went to MLB dot
com where they have this great interview with a guy
named Tom Scheiber who's the senior curator for the National
Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum, and he kind of
he talks about it in a couple of different ways,
and he says, look, the New York wait for it, knickerbockers.
(10:30):
We brought back knickerbockers.
Speaker 2 (10:32):
Ah, we had to thought it was done.
Speaker 1 (10:34):
Huh, such a great word.
Speaker 2 (10:36):
They were, according to MLB dot com, the first team
to have an official uniform. But you mentioned the idea
of people wearing bringing their own kind of brimmed hat
from home. That would more likely have been something resembling
sort of a floppy beach hat or like a farmer's
straw hat or something right.
Speaker 1 (10:54):
Or barbershop quartet hat.
Speaker 3 (10:56):
He go, yes, one of those flat top ones.
Speaker 2 (10:58):
Those are great. I just pictured like a stand in
a parade. I do love a parade. But yeah, at
this point they were wearing what would be called at
the time chip hats or of course straw hats. But
these would have been brimmed, you know, in three hundred
and sixty degrees.
Speaker 1 (11:13):
Yeah, and let's go to Charles A. Peverly. He wrote
a book called the Book of American Pastimes in eighteen
sixty six, and he says, look the Knickerbockers over in
New York. They said, we need uniforms. So they have
blue woolen pantaloons, another beautiful word. They have white flannel shirts.
And then they had like you described Noel, the chip,
(11:35):
and the chip was seriously, it was like this old
school straw hat, flat flat atop or flat crowned, and
then with that three hundred and sixty degree brim. And
all I can imagine is that they would play baseball
and then go sing at the barber shop. We don't
know if that's true, but that's how I'd like to
(11:55):
picture it.
Speaker 2 (11:56):
They definitely had the mustaches for it, likely at this time,
and riding their Penny Farthing bicycles around town. But you
could you can picture already what the issues might be.
You know, straw hat is not particularly durable. I mean
it is relatively durable, I guess for the rain over
top the rain, and yeah, we would in one strand
(12:17):
can come freight and then all of a sudden the
whole thing comes apart. But most importantly it was about
the tightness of the fit, and also that three hundred
and sixty degrees of brim gives the wind three hundred
and sixty degrees of surface area to blast that thing
off your head or just you know, knocking it off
by doing a slide or whatever it might be. There's
an a number of ways you could have an embarrassing wardrobe malfunction, diving.
Speaker 1 (12:40):
For a ball, you know, next thing you know, you've
you've lost your cap, you've lost your hat.
Speaker 2 (12:46):
Worse than a cowboy fallen off his horse.
Speaker 3 (12:48):
I mean, that's bad, very embarrassing.
Speaker 1 (12:51):
It's worse than a clown without the right shoes or
without their pink limitade.
Speaker 2 (12:56):
Oh boy.
Speaker 1 (12:57):
No, So this uh, this uniful stuff is important because
it also functions as a sort of proof of membership.
Instead of an ID card, you would see the uniform,
me like, oh, that guy's for the he plays for
the Brooklyn Excelsiors. That's a real thing. Yeah, well, yeah,
they're real. They're a real team.
Speaker 2 (13:17):
And wasn't that what's his name? Marvel Guy's favorite word, Stanley.
He would always sign everything with excelsior. Doesn't it just
mean kind of excellence, just like yeah, fabulousness. Yeah, and
it's a good name for a team, right, definitely. So
it would have been a word in popular use at
the time too, right. That strikes me as the way
(13:40):
that stan Lee was probably a lad. He probably attended
some of these games.
Speaker 1 (13:44):
You know, tan Lee is eternal, so so this is Oh,
excelsior is also a word for type of wood shaving.
Oh yeah, etymology is so weird, man.
Speaker 3 (13:57):
And it's also a good medication for if you have
an upset tummy.
Speaker 1 (14:00):
Is that true?
Speaker 3 (14:01):
No, that's alcus Elzer.
Speaker 2 (14:04):
You had me. That was good.
Speaker 3 (14:07):
So this Max made the deepest cringe I've ever seen.
Speaker 1 (14:10):
Just yeah, he's holding I know what that hand signal means,
by the way, Max, I get it. So the we'll
call it a victory sign since where family shows. So
this team, if we fast forward to the eighteen sixties,
let's get to the Excelsiors. They first wore what we
(14:33):
would call the predecessor of the modern baseball cap. But
this was a little more floppity, kind of like a
deflated soufle or a beret.
Speaker 3 (14:42):
It's called like a chef cap that's sort of flopped
over like.
Speaker 1 (14:45):
A tiny you like a tiny leady.
Speaker 2 (14:47):
Chef, tiny floppy beret. Who came up with this didn't
berets already exist. Surely they had examples to turn to
that would have generated something less awkward than that, I
guess not. I mean, that's right here in the history.
Speaker 1 (14:59):
Hat technology was in its infancy, et cetera.
Speaker 2 (15:03):
Yeah. It's funny though, because we think of hats, you know,
as in popular you know, culture and history, as being
something that you wore to look fancy, and it wasn't
necessarily something you wore in a fight or like in battle.
That's what helmets were for, you know. So it does
make sense that they had a little bit of I guess,
growing pains when it came to figuring out the right
type of hat that would be you know, suited for
(15:25):
this kind of sport.
Speaker 3 (15:26):
Trial and error.
Speaker 2 (15:28):
They obviously decided, no, we're not doing helmets, guys, we're
not doing helmets. Because you know, football was a thing,
American football with those leather type helmets, and you wonder
why they didn't go with that with baseball. They decided
they wanted to differentiate themselves as a sport perhaps I'm
just conjecturing.
Speaker 1 (15:45):
Well, yeah, I mean, let's also consider that the baseball glove,
which is biquitous today on the field, wasn't a thing
when baseball first year round. In fact, it was considered
unmanly an unsportsmanlike to use a glove.
Speaker 4 (16:00):
And to continue on Nole's point there, it wasn't until
the nineteen hundreds that they started wearing helmets when they batted, right, Yeah, And.
Speaker 2 (16:08):
I don't know if you know anything about the history
of football, Max, but like that movie Leatherheads, you know,
that era seems roughly around this time we're talking, but
that was probably a little more early nineteen hundreds too.
So I wonder if early football they weren't they were
wearing helmets for a while, because you know, that's obviously
always been a bit of a controversy with that sport
about head injuries. It it would definitely be like, oh,
we gotta wear helmets.
Speaker 4 (16:28):
So the first widely believed to be the first like
organized football game is Rutgers versus Princeton, all New Jersey
at time, which is November sixth, eighteen sixty nine.
Speaker 2 (16:40):
Okay, so we're the same ballpark.
Speaker 4 (16:42):
Yeah, but leather helmets was around for way later than
you think. I think we're talking good bit like they
were wearing helmets in baseball before they got actual real
helmets in football. Okay, that makes sense too, that makes
but football was also very different back then, very much
that football was not.
Speaker 1 (17:00):
Was it rough just fewer commercials it was.
Speaker 4 (17:04):
Uh, it was more similar to rugby, and there wasn't
like the forward passing game was a relatively recent development.
It's a lot more running around people, Like the big
guys in the field are like two hundred and ten
silence or more, do you think.
Speaker 1 (17:21):
Also, also, wearing a hat in Western society at this
time is considered sort of derriga. If you are absolutely
a person who is not a passive trash, yeah, you're
supposed to have a hat. So it makes sense all.
Speaker 2 (17:35):
The time, like you know, hat in hand expressions like that,
I mean to me, cap and all that exactly.
Speaker 1 (17:42):
So these uh, these these excelsior folks in Brooklyn, they
are first to the plate with the idea of matching hats,
but they are not by any means alone. There are
also groups like the New York Mutuals. This team says,
we like this whole a different time. These teams like, yeah,
(18:03):
these teams, I mean, good on them for not picking
some terrible racial thing. But they they said, Okay, we
like this idea. We like the idea of these floppity caps.
The Marino cap becomes the number one go to choice.
There has always been an attempt at monopolization of the
baseball cap, and all these caps were made by a
(18:26):
sporting goods company in New York named Peck and Snyder.
They sold a cap called the Number one. It costs
between a dollar twenty five and two bucks. So if
you look at to get a sense of it, this
is around like let's do a boot, let's do an
inflation calculator, huh.
Speaker 3 (18:46):
And a dude and a boop.
Speaker 1 (18:51):
So in just for funzies in eighteen sixty or so,
two dollars then is worth about seventy six dollars and
thirty one cents today. So these were not cheap for people,
but they were official.
Speaker 2 (19:05):
Yeah, no, no, And I just googled marino caps kind
of wanted to see what it looked like. And if
I'm correct, there's a bunch of different ones and it's
obviously you know, a long time ago, but it's probably
become a brand as well. But it looks a lot
like the kind of hat slash helmets that jockeys wore. Yes,
And when I was looking through this research material originally,
that seems so obvious when you think about it, that
(19:28):
they borrowed the design from horse racing.
Speaker 3 (19:31):
But I never would have put the two together, you know,
because it's almost a.
Speaker 2 (19:34):
Little bit more of a nub of a brim rather
than like the longer brim that you know that it
kind of evolved into. But that was a real aha
moment for him, like, oh, of course, yes, jockeys have
been doing the single outward brim and yeah, I mean
definitely older than we're talking here, dating back to around
the late seventeenth century.
Speaker 1 (19:53):
And you can see versions of that specific type of
hat in bicycling communities today, going to be rounded, fitting
close to the crown. It has that abbreviated bill that
goes a little bit down. And this is also the
era when people start wearing what you might think of
as valet caps, like the flat topped cylindrical things that
(20:16):
still have a bill. The Marino cap number one by
Pecken Snyder is the gold standard for a while, and
if we fast forward to nineteen hundred, it becomes known
as the Brooklyn style cap. And this the big breakthrough
for all of this stuff is that directional bill, the
bill that just covers over the front of your face
(20:39):
instead of all the way around. And now you know what,
Let's go to a quote from our pal Tom he
talks about I just love his conversational tone, you guys.
He has a great quotation about the horse racing that
you're mentioning though.
Speaker 2 (20:56):
Yeah, and he's specifically referring to just the fact that
by a little later in the eighteen fifties, you had
more images of this stuff that we could refer back to.
So he says, you're definitely seeing people wearing what you
and I would think of as a baseball cap, which
is a crown with a bill that comes out just
one direction instead of all the way around. This is
not a particularly groundbreaking object. Really, something like that had
(21:17):
been worn in horse racing by jockeys for many years.
We call it a baseball cap because we're Americans and
it's just been associated with baseball for a long time.
Little micro snark there.
Speaker 1 (21:27):
I thought you guys would like that. Max, I saw
you laughing.
Speaker 2 (21:30):
But It's not like it was invented for baseball. The
cat had just been around a very long time, which
makes sense. We do that all the time with stuff,
you know, the victor, the victor go, the spoils and
all of that. Right, whatever thing gets associated with a
thing in a bigly enough way, that becomes the thing
that people you know, think of first. And often what
it's called.
Speaker 1 (21:51):
History is written by the winners, right, history is history
is retold by the victors. And this is true in
so many as The name I was trying to look
for earlier was pillbox. The pillbox version of the cap
becomes popular in the late eighteen eighties, and then that ultimately,
(22:12):
I don't know why I'm mapping this out on my
own cap right now, but that ultimately gives way to
the sort of six paneled round baseball cap so ubiquitous today.
Speaker 2 (22:24):
Dude Pecken Snyder as a brand still around, Yeah, and
they deal in kind of vintage style baseball caps. So
they also make jackets and sweatshirts and sweatpants, pretty pricey stuff.
A New York Bulldog hooded sweatshirt nineteen forty nine, one
hundred and sixty two dollars and it appears that it's
one of those brands like Supreme or whatever where you
(22:45):
go to their website and everything's just marked sold out
right right right, So it's like, thank you for the
helpful listings.
Speaker 3 (22:52):
Well, they've relaunched.
Speaker 1 (22:53):
They make sense they went dark. They relaunched in twenty
twenty because of the nostalgia and the interest in that,
and that's why you can you can still see some
teams playing in old school baseball uniforms. It's a big draw.
Speaker 2 (23:06):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (23:07):
Actually to that point, I just sent in the chat
here the twenty seventeen Pittsburgh Pirates hat, because Pittsburgh Pirates
is like in one of the original NL teams they've
been around for or not original, there's no original NL
teams like the al. The Ale had like eight teams
that came out, but they were really old school team
and so they brought back the pillbox hats, which is
just like, I have my feelings about the Pittsburgh Pirates.
(23:29):
I will not air them here, but I like them.
I like I like Pittsburgh Pirate fans. Let's just say,
but yeah, and I like players on the team. It's
not the problem. We can probably figure out my lemonade.
Speaker 1 (23:41):
Yeah, I can kind of tell. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (23:43):
I think they're just a cool team. They have beautiful ballpark,
and like this is like a hat I would love
to have because it's such a cool hat.
Speaker 1 (23:49):
Because you want to look like you work on a train.
Speaker 2 (23:52):
Yeah, what'd you think? I would say? It?
Speaker 1 (23:55):
There funny, I know, funny part funny at side about Pittsburgh.
So I was there on a weird on a weird
mission for a different show called Stuff They Want You
to Know. I was very cold and I had to
put on I went to the hotel and I was like,
I under a misunderestimated the weather, and I got a
(24:18):
hoodie that just had you know me, I'm not a
logo guy, So I got a hoodie that just had
a pee on it. I didn't know it was the
Pittsburgh Pirates. And I went to like, I went to
one of the only places open late at night to
get food, which was a dive bar, and this bartender
instantly became friends with me. It was like, not a
lot of people have the sand to wear that hoodie
(24:40):
around me around these questions, except in a Pittsburgh accent.
Speaker 4 (24:44):
I mean, like, you know, like Pittsburgh's one of those cities,
the chart's very much the same way. Cleveland's the same
way where their teams are like the number one team dining,
you know, Atlanta's kind of that way. But that was
Midwestern teams. Oh, they love their baseball teams, they do.
Speaker 1 (24:58):
And it's no surprise that this this hat still has
an evolution to go through because as surprise as weird
as it is to point this out, at this time,
no team had a logo on their hat yet. It
was just a color that was the differentiation. It wasn't
until eighteen ninety four, when the then Boston Braves put
(25:23):
letter forms on their caps that people started saying, okay,
let's get some branding on here.
Speaker 2 (25:29):
You know, it makes me picture the letterman's jackets of
you know, Ivy League colleges and universities and all of
that stuff. And I believe that stuff dates back to
the mid to lay eighteen hundreds as well. So it
almost seems like these things were happening concurrently and then
maybe one sort of influenced the other as they started
to evolve, because I guess it probably wasn't until the
(25:52):
fifties or so that like high school letterman jackets became
a thing, you know, with varsity cheerleaders and the like.
Speaker 1 (25:58):
You know, it's such a feat loop, right, These things
feed onto each other. Think about this. If you're a
fan of your local sports team in any decade, especially
before this, this kind of merchandise came out. That is
the coolest flex for you to show up with them
on your shirt, or to show up and say, hey,
(26:19):
I've got a hat from the Boston Braves And someone says,
won't they move to Atlanta later? And you say, I
don't know, carpet, Yeah.
Speaker 4 (26:26):
They got to stop in Milwaukee at some point, sure,
But you know, of course there's that like it.
Speaker 2 (26:32):
It makes you feel connected with the players too, because
you're oftentimes wearing the same You can buy the same
one that they wear by the same jerseys. That's why
those things, you know, the nice ones go for a
pretty penny. But that is the flex in and of
itself to be like, I'm on the team too, you know.
Speaker 1 (26:47):
So by just one year after eighteen ninety four, I
don't know why I said it that way. Eighteen ninety five,
three more teams, three more teams have done the same thing.
Fast forward, it's nineteen oh one. This is another Easter
egg for U Max. The Detroit Tigers are officially the
first major league team to put a mascot on their caps.
(27:10):
It only lasts for a little bit because, like I
think two years later they say, man, mascot, that's really
that's busy, you know, that's just the design is complicated.
Speaker 2 (27:21):
Let's just put a D on there, D for Detroit,
just to D this is the big D. Give them
the big D, y'all. That's all we need for Detroit.
I mean, that's still what they rock to this day.
But also as an additional note, if it's nineteen oh
one American League just did this off off top a head,
that would be their first season too. So they walked
in there because this is what we're doing. They're coming
(27:42):
in a loud and processsh and I believe they're also
using that sick, classic old English font, that kind of Gothic,
kind of very seraphy font. And that's the thing that
is the very definition of branding. Taking a letter that
belongs to literally everyone, yeah, and making it yours and
making it associate, you know, with you and your whole thing.
(28:04):
That is brilliant and everybody couldn't do that. You know.
I mean, you had to be kind of first to
market to be able to claim the D.
Speaker 1 (28:12):
We could do it like we.
Speaker 2 (28:13):
Get the A here in Atlanta, and that people say it.
When people say the A, they are referring to Atlanta.
Speaker 1 (28:18):
That's also how we know you're not from here.
Speaker 2 (28:21):
But that's also true.
Speaker 3 (28:22):
But people do say that outside also Hotlanta.
Speaker 2 (28:24):
We don't like that, y'all.
Speaker 3 (28:25):
We don't think it's funny. It's a big cringe.
Speaker 2 (28:28):
If you're a band and you say Hotlanta, right, those
sounds emanating from the audience, and they're they're they're cringes.
Speaker 1 (28:35):
A friend of mine she got back into online dating,
and she told me that the most obnoxious like online
dating is apparently a minefield. I've never done it, as
you guys know, but like she was telling me that
she had learned these weird red flags, and one of
them dating in Atlanta was when a guy she was
(28:57):
going to meet was like, I love the atl Atlanta.
It's like one you're not from here too. I don't
think we get along.
Speaker 2 (29:04):
I will say atl in texts and as an abbreviation,
but I'll also say NYC or LA or SF. But
I wouldn't speak SF out loud or say ATL out loud.
These are shorthands for brevity. San fran Sand's even worse.
But yeah, let's get to Jim Lilllyfores and ball Cap Nation,
(29:27):
a journey through the world of America's national hat, national hat.
Speaker 3 (29:33):
That's great.
Speaker 2 (29:34):
He gives a lot of reasons to the rising popularity
of the baseball hat and its adoption as like we
were talking about at the top of the show, more
of a lifestyle brand. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (29:46):
Yeah, So that's the big question, right. We know it
has functionality for baseball players, we know it functions on
several levels. But why did it become a thing? Why
do the majority of people buying and war baseball caps
now have nothing to do with baseball?
Speaker 3 (30:03):
It's this is weird.
Speaker 1 (30:06):
It's kind of the same reason that smoking became popular. Because, yeah,
because baseball hits television. Television is invented by Philip Farnsworth.
He never really gets credit for it, but television explodes,
and so does the American obsession with baseball. Now you
(30:26):
can watch it, you don't have to drive into town.
So folks began wanting that association we're talking about. We
want to show support for our teams through their hats.
It's being depicted as cool. Also, baseball caps start going
to other non sports shows on television and in film.
Tom Selleck has a baseball cap on Magnum p I
(30:49):
mcgiver has a baseball cap. And mcguiver's awesome guys.
Speaker 2 (30:52):
He has mode. He does all kind There was this
one episode. I've probably talked about this before, maybe when
mcgiver came up with this one episode. It's burned into
my memory. He does something to the like junction box
at a at a busy intersection where he opens it
up and like monkeys with it a little bit, and
it causes a giant pilotup accident, and he's doing it
(31:14):
to create a diversion. And I'm just like mcguy for
that is not cool. He could have hurt some minist
and bystanders. Of course, nobody gets hurt. But he didn't know.
I mean, I thought that was a little bit an
anarchist cookbook of him.
Speaker 3 (31:27):
Yeah, oh, I like that reference stool. Yeah, mcguiver.
Speaker 1 (31:30):
There's a lot to say about him. He also did
clearly continue like propagating interest in the baseball cap.
Speaker 2 (31:38):
There were pilots right, you know, specifically in pop culture,
like Tom Cruise, the coolest guy around at the time.
Speaker 1 (31:46):
Even now, every single Marvel movie character who needs to
travel incognito or in disguise, they've got a baseball cap
and sunglasses. Take that, Clark Kent. Yeah, same with celebrities
in general.
Speaker 2 (31:59):
You'll often see like paparazzi photos, you know, on TMZ
or whatever of like, you know, Nick Nolty, what am
I saying, Nick Nolty, what is it at the airport?
You know, with a hat like a like a baseball
cap and sunware. Michael Jackson used to do it. I
mean it was pretty much the disguise Derrek Gore. But
(32:19):
it makes sense functionally for that too, because you can
pull that brim down and it shadows your face.
Speaker 1 (32:25):
You know, Anthony Mackie, I think we were we were
flying out of Texas or.
Speaker 3 (32:29):
Something that's on the plane, and he was certainly wearing
a hat.
Speaker 1 (32:32):
So there's also another thing that occurs in this midiu.
In the nineteen sixties, agriculture companies start saying, hey, this
is this could be another business card for us. This
is a great way to advertise stuff like John Deere.
Yeah exactly. And today those.
Speaker 2 (32:51):
That hipsters will end up wearing them ironically later.
Speaker 1 (32:54):
And they'll still pay money. Because money is spent ironically
or unronically, still much still matters.
Speaker 2 (33:01):
So just like an action done long enough ironically just
becomes a thing you do right.
Speaker 1 (33:06):
And that's why agricultural companies are the basis of what
we call trucker hats today, which are sort of a
kissing cousin of the baseball cat, like alligators, crocodiles, crows, ravens,
the very very similar. And so with this the cap
becomes more and more mainstream and the men and women
start to play with it for style. This is where you, oh,
(33:29):
I'm going to do it. This is just for the
like the four of us because we're not a visual podcast,
but this is where you get it turned to the
side and like it looks like.
Speaker 2 (33:37):
With your hands on your headphones like that, it just
like you're making some sick beats.
Speaker 3 (33:41):
You're ready to like spit some fire bars.
Speaker 2 (33:45):
But that's the thing though, I mean in hip hop
culture too, the hat and the baseball hat, whether it
be sports related or just kind of like cool streetwear
brand related, it is a huge part of that uniform.
And not to mention that like a lot of British
urban Britage kids also developed, you know, started wearing it
around the time of like grime music and a lot
(34:06):
of the kind of electronic hip hop stuff, kind of
crossover stuff of the early two thousands and beyond in
the UK.
Speaker 1 (34:13):
Oh yeah, man, And that point about musicians is excellent.
Punk rockers are wearing baseball hats. Grunge singers in the
nineties are wearing baseball hats. Pop stars are showing up
to seeing the national anthem with surprise baseball cap. It's
just the marketing is there, and this means that it
gets incredibly popular. It starts to fragment as people take
(34:38):
their own spin on this. And that's why now in
general and we get this. According to our good friends
at Vogue, there are four major types of baseball hat.
We've named each of them kind of in the course
(34:59):
of this episode.
Speaker 3 (35:00):
What is there.
Speaker 1 (35:00):
There's snap back, adjustable, flex fit, fitted, full disclosure, or
pal nol has an example of all of these. Because
you're a man of many hats, I like hats, and
I was thinking back, you know, and researching this episode
about like when did I make the conscious decision to
become a hat guy, Like a baseball hat guy. And
I remember around roughly around the time, and it wasn't
(35:23):
because of anything functional. I just decided one day I
was playing in bands and stuff like I'm gonna be
a guy that wears hats. And for a long time
I had really long hair too, and I think the
hat started entering my life when I cut my hair short,
and I was like, well, before I had my long hair,
that was my thing, and now I've got hats so
and I've never looked back. I've probably got dozens, and
(35:46):
I've got examples of all of these. The flex fit
is a fun one that I don't have very many of,
but it's sort of a stretch here hat that would
maybe be considered a little sporty or something that's weather proof,
you know, for like hiking and better at soaking up
sweat and not staining, you know, the fabric stuff like that.
Vined kind of somebody to associate with, like an active
wear brand like Lululemon or something. And Max and I
(36:08):
were talking off here too. I was a little bit
surprised because I came in hot, and I was like, Max,
this is gonna be such a great episode, bro, You're
gonna love this. How many baseball caps do you own?
And for anybody who has not had the immense privilege
of seeing our friend Max in person, the guy's got long,
shiny locks of hair. It's very lustrous.
Speaker 4 (36:32):
Yeah, I was telling Ben, I'm like, yeah, I have
hat somewhere, but I haven't cut my hair in five years,
so it's like I can't really wear a hat.
Speaker 2 (36:40):
I mean, I guess put it down. I cook, well,
a hat with a ponytail is definitely a vibe.
Speaker 3 (36:45):
Brother, I'm just sure to put that out.
Speaker 1 (36:46):
That's very much a choice because you got to thread
it through the back.
Speaker 2 (36:50):
Yeah, that's a real thing.
Speaker 4 (36:52):
That's something I can see our long time friend Alan
Finkbeiner doing absolutely absolutely.
Speaker 3 (36:56):
Oh man, Alan, I hope you're enjoying your retirement.
Speaker 2 (36:59):
Alan was our it's been our mutual Sweetwater Sound representative
collectively for about twenty years.
Speaker 3 (37:06):
He's candy without having to buy a gear. No, we
got some gear.
Speaker 2 (37:11):
That's what they do.
Speaker 3 (37:12):
They always appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (37:14):
And we will give you a hat if you want.
What should give ridiculous history hats.
Speaker 2 (37:18):
That'd be great, get old rest bututant on one. I'd
wear that, but with then the fitted hat. You know
what you're wearing, Ben, That is that is also a
fitted hat is kind of considered maybe a more high
end baseball hat because it's a specific size. So oftentimes
you've got to go to a place that has lots
of different options. There's going to be a little bit
more expensive. They're really durable. I only have like one
(37:40):
or two. I think one of them is a Supreme
hat and it has a baseball tie in. I am
not a sports fan, so I don't wear baseball hats
or sports hats. This is the only thing. But I
just really got it because of the logo and the colorway.
But yeah, I'm a big Supreme fan, big Vans hat fan.
Speaker 3 (37:57):
And I just I like those. What are those ones
with the animals on them?
Speaker 2 (38:00):
Ben? You have one? To Goren brothers have a handful
of those. Those are fun, But I just think it's
a fun way to accessorize. You know, I was blessed
with perfect eye sights, so I can't wear glasses, so
I gotta wear hats.
Speaker 1 (38:12):
You can still wear glasses if you want.
Speaker 2 (38:14):
I don't know, man, that's sort of like wearing a hat.
Speaker 1 (38:16):
And we'll stop a lot of people.
Speaker 3 (38:18):
Jersey if you're not really a follower of that scene.
Speaker 1 (38:20):
I will, I will do that. That is one of
the This is like a bowling key to insulating or like,
I don't want to make it sound insidious, but to
fitting in in a strange place, especially in the United States,
if you want to fit in, no matter your demographic,
wear something from the local sports team and they'll be like,
(38:41):
he gets it.
Speaker 2 (38:42):
That's a good one. And oftentimes too you'll like in
the movie Drive, for example, when you know there's a
huge kind of chase sequence or he's running from the
cops in the very first sequence of the film, which
is great. When he finally does his getaway, he parks
his car at La Dodgers Stadium and gets out right
as all of the sports fans are leaving the game.
(39:03):
He's been listening to it on the radio the whole
time and gets there right as the crowd's letting out,
and then he puts on on LA Dodgers of course
he does.
Speaker 1 (39:11):
Also. Drive is a great film, and I have been
leaning hard on dressing as the protagonist to Drive. Whenever
I'm lazy. Come a Halloween.
Speaker 2 (39:21):
Oh for sure, you got that jacket with the scorpion
and the leather fingerless gloves. All you need now is
a hammer. I'm sure you got a couple of those
laying around. All right, Well, this is not a court,
so we're not going to answer that. What about what
about the snapback? I'm confused between the difference between snapback
and adjustable. They seem like they're a little bit the same.
But I think maybe snapback literally is the plasticky, you know,
(39:44):
buttony thing snap yeah. Other, Yes, the other one might
be one with fabric that you have to cinch through
a little a little buckle belts.
Speaker 1 (39:54):
Belt for your head belts, yeah, a head belt. Finally,
this this stuff is so popular right now that if
we fast forward, even though we're a history show, if
we fast forward to the future, we can tell you
that despite a global pandemic, the global the world baseball
cap market was seventeen point ninety billion dollars in twenty
(40:19):
twenty one. By twenty twenty nine, it's going to be
twenty five point six four billion dollars. And there is
one company in particular that is super happy about that
news because they are making a lot of that money.
Speaker 2 (40:33):
That's right. Since nineteen ninety three, the new era cap
company in Buffalo, New York, has been the exclusive cap
provider for Major League Baseball. So there's money in them.
Speaker 1 (40:47):
Is money in those crowds.
Speaker 2 (40:48):
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (40:49):
I have a hard time with monopolies. I think we
all do. It reminds me of like the one place
that gets the mud for baseballs. Sure, so I'm talking
about I guess.
Speaker 3 (41:00):
So I guess that has made the mud by having
wet cleats.
Speaker 2 (41:03):
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (41:04):
Well, it's like a secret it's mud from a secret location.
Speaker 3 (41:07):
No joke, no joke.
Speaker 1 (41:08):
This is Max. You're nodding, right, this is true.
Speaker 2 (41:12):
Oh, I'm just gonna take a shot a new era.
That's all I was gonna do. Shot.
Speaker 1 (41:16):
Take it, take a shot.
Speaker 4 (41:17):
So so new era. This goes to the monopoly thing.
Last year, the Atlanta Braves had a new home run celebration.
You guys seeing those hilariously big hats. So you put
it on and it's like this big it's a massive hat,
his hands very far apart. Yes, yes, just type in
on a Brian Robinson big hat. He's a running back
(41:38):
for the Washington Commanders. And so the brands were wearing
these home runs and then new eras like.
Speaker 3 (41:45):
You can't wear that because it's not our hats.
Speaker 2 (41:48):
Make one, may make.
Speaker 1 (41:49):
One then yeah, also era, Also the baseball mud thing
is true. Maybe that's a story for.
Speaker 3 (41:55):
A future episode for sure. Well, speaking of stories to
maybe round out this.
Speaker 2 (41:59):
Episod, Yeah, we've talked about all the different types of hats.
People may be screaming at their podcast device saying what
about them trucker hats? What's the difference? I mean that's
what got me started, honestly too. I'm remembering now when
I started wearing hats. It was in an era where
there were a lot of like kind of cool bands
from like Athens, like the Drive By Truckers and like
(42:20):
bands like Granddaddy that were rock and trucker hats pretty
hard Will co. Yeah, it was just a vibe at
the time, So I think I was like, I want
to be on that, you know, hipster train. It's a
good vibe.
Speaker 3 (42:34):
It is a good vibe. But the trucker hat it's
sort of very much.
Speaker 2 (42:38):
Like the baseball hat, but it just has a plastic
kind of mesh back to it. And that's right. And
you also see some of these design choices being used
in what would be considered basically the lines can be blurry.
Speaker 1 (42:52):
I think it's such a it's it's like the what
is a sandwich question?
Speaker 2 (42:57):
That's one we still don't know.
Speaker 1 (42:59):
We still uh And I actually I read a mathematical
paper about the definition of a sandwich.
Speaker 2 (43:07):
God's work.
Speaker 1 (43:07):
This job is so weird. But uh but yeah, these
these hats are these hats I saw, like that guy,
what was that movie? Stand and deliver these kids and
I know that one he saves the school.
Speaker 2 (43:21):
I think that's so thank you.
Speaker 1 (43:23):
So the uh, the Edward James almost it's all coming
back to me. You remember him, the actor.
Speaker 2 (43:28):
He was Edward James almost a pretty good actor. Oh wow,
oh wow, he's actually good. I had to do it.
But you know, those those design features of the the
humble trucker hat, we're all created for specific reasons. It
feels functions like the mesh was for breatheability. The foam
added a little bit of structure and stability and also
(43:50):
makes the hat keep its shape. Also gives a nice
solid foundation. They're they're taller trucker. Trucker hats are typically
a little bit high, high higher above your your forehead,
and the foam also gave a nice solid foundation for
the logos. And again, much like that, I would consider
the John Deere type hats that we're talking about earlier
to be more in the vein of a trucker hat.
(44:12):
Sure they were, those were.
Speaker 3 (44:14):
Meant to be worn by workmen, you know, like a
Carhart hat.
Speaker 2 (44:17):
That's yeah, yeah, isn't it funny how car Hearts now
also become this weird lifestyle I'm wearing No, I'm not
wearing a car hert hat right now. But there's like
there's car Heart stores in like Soho in New York.
You know, it's a total hipster mecca kind of brand.
You see it the celebrities all the time.
Speaker 1 (44:33):
That takes us to the larger thing. We see this
in food and cuisine as well. I'm just very excited
about some barbecue ler today. It's which is the thing
that would be considered traditionally working class or even lower class,
it becomes elevated, it becomes hoot cuisine like uh, like
New York went through this whole Ballooney sandwich phase. And
(44:54):
and we see that, I argue in fashion as well.
Speaker 3 (44:57):
Plused up trash food or trash fashion.
Speaker 2 (45:01):
Yeah, because then you had like Von Dutch, you know,
all of these kind of big like hip La brands
or whatever. I mean, arguably hip. I think they're kind
of done now, but there was a big period of
time where like justin Timberlake and Britney Spears and that
whole set, we're wearing these Von Dutch hats which were
trucker hats. I think it's actually a documentary about the
rise and fall of that company. I think something weird happened,
(45:22):
like the owners or the founders were like sketchy in
some way. But point is the other feature is the
snappy snap thing that makes it adjustable because you know
some some truckers heads are bigger than others. Yes, yes
I'm not a trucker, but I typically have to wear
my snappy snaps on, like the last two snaps. I
(45:43):
got a pretty big noggin.
Speaker 1 (45:44):
So this is that that goes back to the idea
of one size fits all. It means you can buy
there's another ubiquity or another advantage to the baseball cap
in general. Outside of the fitted, A lot of these
will be adjustable for old host any headsize. So you
can be a kid who wants to rep your your
(46:05):
team and your heroes, and that that hat can fit YouTube,
which is really cool. Even it's super cute. You know,
when it looks like kind of big.
Speaker 2 (46:13):
Kind of big, I think it's cool.
Speaker 1 (46:15):
Yeah, like you got this little guy.
Speaker 3 (46:17):
It's not considered like embarrassing or off working.
Speaker 1 (46:20):
It's cool, it's endearing. And so with that, of course,
we're I think we've done a good job of not
fanboying too much about hats.
Speaker 3 (46:30):
I love hats.
Speaker 1 (46:32):
We also know, thankfully that we are not getting Max
a baseball hat for his birthday. I thought Max with
the hats, I thought it was a real I thought
it was a real home run. But but I was incorrect. Anyway,
(46:54):
we hope you.
Speaker 2 (46:55):
Enjoyly walk that one in. Wow.
Speaker 1 (46:57):
Max turned off his camera and then turned it back
onto Layer at me for that one. I can't wait
for the sound cue boy. I also can't wait for
our next episode this week, where we're going to talk
about one of the most continually fascinating presidents in the
history of the United States, the one and only, famously
(47:20):
uh famously talkative Calvin Coolidge.
Speaker 2 (47:24):
Accent on the cool yes, yes accent.
Speaker 1 (47:28):
He's the coolest Calvin in town. Uh, he's probably heard.
Speaker 3 (47:31):
Calvin Klein was literative.
Speaker 2 (47:34):
That was great.
Speaker 1 (47:35):
You've also probably heard of the religion that was started
just to worship this guy, Calvinism. Don't fat check us fat, big, big,
big thanks to super producer mister Max Williams. Big big
thanks of course to uh a special announcement. We dragged
this guy so hard, but big big sincere shout out
(47:58):
to our dear friend Jonathan Strickland aka the Quist. Nobody
tell him we were nice to him, not even once
on the show. Okay, that dies with us.
Speaker 2 (48:09):
Huge nights Chris Frosciotis and his fresh wizard Beard here
in spirit, Eves, Jeff Codes, Geez, Alex Williams, who composed
this banging theme. Max again, I don't remember if we
do already. You know the thanks is ever present for you,
Max and comes directly from our hearts and to you. Ben.
Speaker 3 (48:28):
This is a fun one.
Speaker 1 (48:29):
Oh hey, right back at you. I am gonna do
the joke again because it's so horrible. Well thanks to
our research associates as well. I think this episode was
a home run.
Speaker 2 (48:41):
Indeed, we'll see you next time, folks. For more podcasts
from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever
you listen to your favorite shows,
Ridiculous History News
Hosts And Creators
Ben Bowlin
Noel Brown
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