July 31, 2019 • 31 mins
Multiple award-winning screenwriter-author-executive producer, and now feature film director, Cindy Chupack, shares how she’s learning to redefine herself behind the camera. Her new film Otherhood is available on Netflix August 2.
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
I wanted to commiserate with women. That's still what I
like to do, and like I feel like the prescriptive
nous that we're sometimes looking for, like the life packs
and the pillars and the you know everything is, can
be a useful tool. But sometimes we just need to
talk to people who are in the same place as
us and feel comforted that what we're going through is
(00:22):
totally normal. Hello, and welcome to the podcast where we
talk about navigating the road to change in the most
productive way. I'm Lisa Us and I am Chill Herzig.
And one of my favorite things about doing this podcast
(00:45):
is it has given us both the chance to reconnect
with some old friends and people who we've worked with
a known in our past, and today we get to
I get to introduce you to and all of our
listeners to and old friends. Somebody I worked with in
my distant past as an editor at Glamor magazine who
was a columnist for me and I'm, oh, my god,
(01:08):
someone I adore and have wonderful history with and just
have incredible respect for the work she was doing them,
but also the work she's done since blows me away.
So you got to intro our guests. All right, well
I will I'm in awe. I'm actually feeling a little
intimidated and in the presence of our guests. She is
a two time Emmy Award winner at three time Golden
(01:31):
Globe winner for shows like Modern Families, Sex in the City.
She's written many books bestsellers, and she is now a director. Um,
we are talking about Cindy Shupac. Thank you so much
for being here with us today. Thank you for having
me Hi, I'm intimidated by you. Guys. I was listening
to your podcast from the beginning and I've learned so
(01:52):
many great life hacks and I really started to feel
like I don't have enough advice. You don't need pillars
or whatever you're doing is working magnificently, and so we
wanted to ask you about this new phase of your
life directing, which is like having another baby, and um,
how did you get there? And was this a lifelong dream?
(02:14):
And we don't need a hack. Just by the way,
we are both huge fans of your movie Otherhood, which
is coming August. Second, is that right? Yeah? Second on
Netflix US. By the way, thank you. I know it's
nice to be able to let some people preview it um.
You know, it's been such a long journey with that movie.
(02:36):
It was well. As far as directing, I have really
loved the collaboration I've had with directors as a TV writer,
because I've been writing television for like twenty years and
I've had some really great directors come to episodes of
mine and I've been on set with them. So I've
been around the process for such a long time. But
I've always been a writer collaborating with the director, and
(02:57):
I wasn't one of those writers who always I wanted
to direct. But I will say I think now in retrospect,
that was partly due to so few female role models
that were directors, because as I came up, a lot
of men who worked on TV shows would eventually ask
for in their contract to direct an episode or would
(03:18):
go off and do it. And I think there's you know,
there's been a lot of research that women, if there's
a job advertised, will feel they need what is it,
like fifteen of the fourteen qualifications, and men and men
will feel they can do it with you know, three
of the fourteen qualifications. And so I think in that way,
I wasn't really leaning in and imagining myself doing it.
(03:39):
But I mean, you were kind of overqualified, typical female situation.
You were kind of overqualified for this. But what made
you finally take a leap and reach for this brass
ring in determined why? Um? It was this project, this
movie that's coming out on Netflix. Uh ten years ago.
Over ten years ago, now, I was hired to rewrite
(04:03):
a version of the script that was written by Mark Andrews,
who wrote as Good as It Gets, and it was
based on a British book Whatever makes You Happy? That
was the title of the of the movie for a
long time. Um, I was hired to rewrite it. I
loved the script so much that I really just took
the job because I didn't want anyone to make it
into something else, because it was this beautiful character based
(04:24):
piece about mothers and adult sons. Three women whose sons
grew up together and they start feeling kind of marginalized
and forgotten and decided to go to New York and
make their sons love them again basically. And at the
time I got this rewrite, I didn't even have a
kid yet. I was I was, I think married, but
not not. We didn't have Olivia yet. But I really
(04:44):
related in just that it was this female friendship and
that it was a stage of life where you had
to redefine yourself. And in fact, listening to your podcast
and Simon Sinek and the Why, Um, it was interesting
because I feel like as women, we do have a
lot of stages where we I feel like we've lost
her identity and in our past. When I was a
dating columnist for Glamour for so long, I wrote about dating.
(05:07):
I wrote on sex in the City, and then when
I got married, I really felt like my career is over.
I don't know I was so I just thought this
is when they get married, but Cindy felt, you know,
my career's over. That was the big headline. And then
it took me a while to figure out how to
write about dating, I mean, write about marriage and the
(05:29):
same way I read about dating. My first book was
you Know, but between the between Boyfriend's Book, which is
all about dating, and my second book, UM much later,
was uh, The Longest Date Life as a Wife, and
that was really adjusting to marriage when you're older. But
my goal for that book was to try to write
about marriage in the same way I wrote about dating,
(05:50):
to just be open and honest and funny about it,
and why do people close ranks? So this movie spoke
to me in that same way of just a new
stage for women where they had been defining them selves
as mothers, even if they had careers and other things.
I think you just feel primarily like your raised ondre
is to help bring these kids safely into the world.
(06:11):
And I think when they and then when the kids
go away and you're an empty nester, suddenly you have
the um luxury of time to look around and say, well,
what is the state of my friendships and my marriage
and my relationship with my children that might need to
be redefined in my relationship with my UM career. And
(06:32):
so I loved that about this movie. So I did
the rewrite ten years ago. I it kind of went
in to turn around because it was at Fox Search.
Like the whole movie industry felt like a completely different
beast at that point because there was really the big
blockbusters or the quirky indies and there wasn't a lot
of room for movies like this that I missed, and UM,
(06:53):
mostly male directors kind of didn't see it as something
I think that they really wanted to commit time to.
And there wasn't as much a place in the marketplace,
like I said, so for a long time it just
wanted to turn around. But the producer who originally hired
me and I we I never let this movie go.
I just kept thinking, when is someone going to make
this movie? And I wasn't thinking I would make it.
(07:14):
I just was thinking will it ever come back around
and some director will revive it? And then finally my producer,
who was president of Women in Film, said maybe you
should direct it? And I was thinking of taking a
directing course, and I wanted to sort of have a
film in mind as I was taking it, not as
if i'd actually make it, but just have it to
filter through the course. And that film was the one
(07:37):
I decided I wanted to do. And then we had
a lot of stops and starts, but finally made it.
Finally filmed it in New York with um Angela Bassett
and Patricia Arquette and Felicity Happen. Incredible cast. You mentioned
women in Hollywood or women in Film, but women in
Hollywood in general. It's a lot in the news net
right now and people it's a conversation. Um, what was
(07:59):
your experience like because you're a powerful woman in Hollywood
and and do you have any stories around that. Well,
I've you know, I've been a female in a lot
of mostly male writer's rooms. Sex in the city was
an aberration and kind of a delight that we were
mostly women in um a few men and just such
an open great room. But I've been I kind of say,
(08:21):
when I first started, I was a little bit like
the little sister, kind of non threatening. Everyone's giving you advice,
and um, I was single. I feel like now I'm
kind of Windy and the Lost Boys. When I'm hiers
room and I meet these great women writers and we've
joked about, like, why have we never worked together? And
(08:42):
it's because, oh, usually only one of us can be
in the room at one time, Like there's usually one
high level writer expiracy to keep you all separated from
one another, so we can't talk. But we've found each other. Um.
But for the most part, I have no completes. Like
I've had a great career in Hollywood, and I feel
like I've been able. My writing has helped me find
(09:03):
great jobs. I've worked on shows I've loved. I've worked
in great rooms even when I was one of the
only women, like Everybody Loves Raymond was a mostly male room,
but it was really fun and great people. So uh,
and then you know, I've probably been hired because I'm
a woman in some in a lot of instances, because
I want a female perspective or someone with this you know,
your experience as the reason you're hired a lot of times.
(09:26):
But I will say only until recently this whole Me
Too movement and all this news about the terrible statistics
of how few women direct and are in kind of
gatekeeper positions. Um, I finally felt with this with directing
because right before I did the movie, I also directed
an episode of the show I was working on, which
is I'm Dying up Here, which has had a couple
(09:48):
of seasons on Showtime. UM, great stand up comedy. Yes,
I could feel myself. I had it in my contract.
My husband kind of encouraged me to get it in
my contract for the second year that I would direct
a episode and I never asked for that before, and
he was like, if you want to do your movie,
just do this in the meantime. And so I got
on my contract. But as a second season approach, I
(10:09):
could so feel myself wanting to give them an out,
like give these wanting to say if this is awkward,
because I was so comfortable as a writer I knew.
I just felt like my own nerves. I kept waiting
for someone to say, you know what, every other director
we have as so much more experience, But they didn't
really let me. And Showtime particularly had a mandate to
(10:30):
have more female directors as its almost everybody does right now,
and so it was helpful to them actually to have
me on the slate and to have me who knew
the show very well. Um so actually, I felt like
the difference between trying to kick your way in the
door and having someone actually hold the door open and
kind of edging you into it made a big difference
(10:51):
for me, and I think after hopefully I'll be one
of the directors that is sort of a role model
for other directors eventually. I mean, so many of my
writing friends who are so to lln died. I've just said,
just direct just tried to direct an episode of your show.
Just not to mitigate what directors do, but we do.
We've been around it for so long. When we come back,
we want to go more into your personal stories, back
(11:12):
from the early days in writing. We've been chatting the
Cindy Chupac, the director of the upcoming film other Hood.
But right now I want to switch gears a little
bit and talk about single hood, those days in in
(11:36):
your life when you were pretty much experimenting about what
the next plot line would be Insects in the city.
And also and also I have to ask you to
sort of tell the story of how you you were single,
then you were married, and then you were single again. Yes,
that was my biggest you turn, probably of my life.
(11:57):
I was married. Yeah, I was single. I'm married at
like twenty five to a man who two years later
realized he was gay. And um, now that doesn't even
seem like a moment, because every everything is so fluid now,
I think it's a moment. It was a moment at
(12:19):
the time, it would be a moment for us. Yes,
And it was really like a moment where it felt
like my life because we had had a big wedding
all my friends, you know, I did the big white dress.
It felt really like I was a failure, like I
should have seen this, like he should have seen this.
You know, he didn't know yet. It was an interesting
he hadn't been with a man but felt like he
(12:41):
should figure it out. And let's just say, if somebody's
feeling that way, that that's probably a sorry. So you know,
if I felt like anyone who who divorces, I mean who,
no matter who's if there's a fault, you still feel
like a failure, Like it's a very public thing that
you have to tell all your friends and family what's happening.
(13:03):
And it was a very hard time and I felt
like it was an end. And then only later when
I because I was single for such a long time
after that, and dated and that's when I started writing
for you Jill for Sex in the City, and that
became such a big part of my career and who
I was, and UM that I it was kind of
(13:25):
a gift that I got to do it over and
have that have this big career. And then I eventually
met Ian, who I married, and um and then we
adopted our daughter, Olivia, And there was a big Saint
Bernard in the middle of that somewhere, So you got
to have a do over of being single and have
all these incredible adventures, a lot of which I have
a feeling made their way on the screen in Sex
(13:48):
in the City played much more gracefully by Sarah Jessica
Parker than me. But but just stepping back for a second,
how did having that blow up of your first marriage
and having this sort of public reckoning. How do you
think it reshaped you as a person? What was different
about you after? I think I realized that I hadn't
(14:13):
not that I didn't love Sam who I married, but
I didn't have a lot of thought and intention. I mean,
as much as I wrote in Sex in the City
and as as many questions as CARRY asked, I think
I didn't ask any of those. I didn't really think
about what I wanted my life to look like, or
who I was, what I wanted my career to be,
(14:33):
what kind of partners we would be like. I think
it was just I was so young to marry and
just think this is what it's going to be and
then we'll have kids, and it was sort of like
the narrative that had been written for many many women,
and I was just diving into it. But I think
having to stop and really figure out who I was
and what I wanted to do, and who I wanted
(14:55):
to be, and what I wanted marriage and my life
to look like I mean even I had d it
up eventually buying a house on my own, which I
still live in this house in Raina, del Rey. I
never would have done that. I kind of thought about
my mother, who you know, was married very young and
is still married and never had that moment. In some ways,
that's a gift to be able to take that moment
(15:15):
and figure out who you are separate from a man,
and just kind of create my own identity. So I
felt like after that, everything was a question, and everything
was you know, it was just it was sort of
wide open in a scary but good way, which you've
used a lot of your life experience experiences to right.
(15:37):
Does it ever interfere with your friendships? Like? Are your
friends nervous that whatever goes down is going to end
up on a screen somewhere. So many of my friends
are writers. It's more like we're all nervous about who's
going to get it? Claver happened? I got home and write, Um,
I try. I I don't think my friends are I
(16:00):
think probably men. I you know, when I wrote between
Boyfriend's book and I was writing about dating, I often
just use first names of men, and I always try
to in writing about relationships, and this is just the
way I think anyway I'm trying to I'm the antagonist
of my story. It's not really to take down men
in my life who have had been bad dates or whatever.
(16:21):
It's more to sort of see patterns and commiserate with
other women. So I think that takes this thing out
a little bit. And then when I wrote my book
about marriage, that was a little tricky writing about the
relationship I was and still am hoping to stay in,
and also writing about my daughter, who it's kind of tricky,
I think, to talk and write about your kids because
they wanted to have their own identity, you know, writing
(16:42):
about how she came about. But I just feel my
why if I have one, has been to try to
commiserate and normalize and make relatable these things that so
many women go through and just be honest about it
are sort of most embarrassing, strangest feelings. And I the
(17:05):
more awkward it is to talk about, or the more
I have sort of fear of talking about it, the
more I feel like that's probably an area that needs
to be mind And maybe this is why female friendship
figures hugely in every single thing that you've done. I mean,
it seems like it seems like all of your projects,
that's the through line. Is that that strong endorsement of
(17:27):
the power of female friendship. Yeah, I think when I
finally landed, you know, I had been writing for many
years on other shows, and then I got on Coach,
and then I met Phil Rosenthal and got on Everybody
Loves Raymond from Coach. But I finally Sex in the
City was like what I was going through at the
time I was going through it. I was thirty four
when I joined, and that's the age they most of
(17:48):
the women were, and it just felt right to be
somewhere where I could really write about what everybody I
knew and my girlfriends and I were talking about and
going through. It's sort of opened a door for me
that that's that's the kind of writing I want to
keep doing. And the other hood actually, um, it's the
women in the movie are friends because their kids went
to school together. Their three boys went to school together
(18:10):
in Poughkeepsie, and now they're three boys have moved off
to New York. And I've met and made so many
good friends through my daughter and in fact, my birthdays
coming up and we're doing at dinner with all like
preschool parent friends, even though she's in second grade now.
But you I feel like you make this tribe out
of what you're going through and those are the people
you really need and and and they have information you
(18:31):
need and like your podcast and the I think this
stage for women is, um, you kind of need your
tribe to help you get through it. Yeah, back to
other hood. You're not in that stage of life right now.
Your daughter is eight years old. Were so late I'm
in that stage. But the stories about women who have
(18:53):
men who are out of college or sons who are
you know, Senser out of college? How how do you
how do you put yourself in that and so you
could really understand what they were going through? Um. You know,
I think emotionally, I just connect emotionally to characters and
to stories, and I can usually figure out sort of
the kernel of truth that feels relatable to me and
(19:15):
feels real. And also just as someone who has a
mom and has been an adult child of a mom,
I kind of related through the boy's point of view
as well. But yeah, I feel like that moment of
identity crisis and reinvention and thinking, you know, who am
I now and even though I'm late to the child game,
I'm the same age as these women basically, and have
(19:39):
you know, my marriage has been on going on a
long time. So just the thought just you know, kind
of figuring out what is the second half of your
life going to be? I feel like I can relate
to that, even though it's not based completely in an
empty nest yet for me, I feel like I can
relate to that too. Perhaps it motivated the two of
us to do this podcast. I wonder the second half
of life is a big it's a it's a it's
(20:00):
a it's a big change. Yeah, And isn't it. It's
so interesting because we really are living longer, so we
have I think, what is basically an extra quarter that
didn't used to figure in. I mean, it kind of
was like we were supposed to be on the down slope,
and now you really can be. You kind of get
the chance, I think, to do a do over. I
(20:21):
know there's programs now for people to want to who
want to re educate, even if you had a successful career,
like kind of just deciding what you want to do
for the next half. So it's sort of an exciting opportunity.
But yeah, it's a little daunting to think, oh my god,
I'm I still have half life to fill. What am
I going to do with this time? When we come back,
we're going to talk more about what we're gonna do
(20:43):
with this time. Before the break, we just touched on
this second half of life transition, I think where we
either kind of stagnate or we figure out we reinvent ourselves,
(21:09):
so we figure out something new. And so was the
directing for you, Cindy a conscious transformation or did you
just kind of fall into it? You know? I would say, Um,
I do feel excited that I did something I was
scared of because I was scared and intimidated by it.
(21:29):
And it felt good at this age to do something
that scared me a bit and to feel like I
conquered it and to be And it opens up a
whole new way. I can still work as right as
a writer, but I could also direct episodes of shows
I love, or you know, write my own movie or
directed a movie that I read. So it's just opened
up a lot of possibilities. I don't feel like I'm
(21:50):
completely changing course and now I'm a director, but it's
uh it's nice to ay, it's just nice to do
something you're scared of and feel like you can do it.
And and ways I think I needed to be older
and more surefooted and in a way have my daughter
because for some reason, having a kid makes me feel
like nothing is that scary, because I'm raising a person,
(22:15):
Like that's the scariest thing I can imagine, the biggest responsibility. Yeah, yeah,
nothing only seems impossible. Now, talk a little bit about
your journey to motherhood, because it's something you chronicle in
the Longest Date. It's not just about marriage, it's also
about struggle with infertility. Talk about about getting honest on that.
(22:36):
Um well, yeah, The Longest Day was something I wanted
to write while I was still in it because we
were you know, I married in when I was forty,
so it shouldn't have been a big surprise that it
was hard to have a child, but we But we
did go through it all and had to go through
every stage, and I had so many friends going through
it too, And it's just a very ring thing. It's
(23:00):
trying on your marriage. The idea that you're trying to
have a baby is still trying, and it's hard to
remember once you get through it, you almost want to
forget it because you just don't ever need all that
information again about when you're ovulating or any of the
things that drove your life during that time. But also
I think I realized in a way I hadn't that
when I'm I had known women in the past of
(23:23):
friends who had had miscarriages, and I think I didn't
quite understand the gravity of that and how much grief
was involved in that, and all your hopes and dreams
that you were about to have a baby. So I
felt very connected to a lot of things that women
were going through and had gone through, and I wanted
to write something that was somehow funny but honest about
(23:44):
that time. And so when I started writing that book,
I was in the middle of it still, and I
find writing about things that I'm still struggling with, are
still dealing with, um to be better for me. In fact,
on Sex in the City, we used to assign stories
based on how who was the most afraid of it,
whoever had the most issues around it. Was a perfect
(24:05):
writer for it because you really had to sort of
struggle through and get to the truth of what your
fears were, what you're so that that hurt, you could
hurt a lot. But I think, you know, it's interesting
because I can see that in sex in the city
and in a lot of other things, and certainly in
other hood that all all this work that you've done,
there's a real happy sad, there's a there's a real
(24:28):
combination of grieving for something, um, letting go of dreams,
reaching for something new, laughing at the absurdity of it all. Um.
I don't know. I think you're I think you're the
master of this well laughing through tears. I you know,
I was thinking about that because I have to say,
like listening to your podcast and just in general in
the world, there is a lot of emphasis on happiness.
(24:49):
There's a lot of like how do we find joy?
How do we find happiness? How do we And I'm
not saying we should go looking for sadness, but I
think trying to push it aside or avoid it is
um is, at least for me, missing the point sometimes
because there's so much growth and it's so balanced is
out the happy, and they're so intertwined. Sometimes for me
and things that are very emotional, there's so much growing there,
(25:13):
and there's just a lot to unpack always and anyway,
I think I'm not saying I wanted to lead the
new movement to find your sadness. I don't think that's
my role in life sadness. You that are sad, I mean,
but you seem it seems to me that much of
(25:34):
your body, of your work is humorous. You use humor
a lot. What do you think of the is the
role of humor in processing things like like truth which
involves sadness? Yeah, I mean that's just my go to
and I just feel like there's there is usually there's
just sort of humor and heart in most of the
(25:55):
world the way I see it, and I feel like
I'm always kind of looking for that or just find
it accident. I don't know if I don't feel very
funny today, so maybe people are like, are you funny?
I was. It's more like the writing. I mean, I
find it in the writing more um or. I find
humor and when when people are telling me stories or something,
but I, uh, yeah, I find that to just be
(26:17):
so healing. I mean, I feel like humor is the
way to get across hard messages, and you know, it's
just the way to get through it sometimes and even
I think balancing the humor and the heart is. I mean,
that's something I just strive to do because I feel
like I don't want it to be just funny and
not substantial, and I don't want it to be just
(26:38):
earnest and sad without some levity. So it's just a
balance I'm trying to find. You managed to have some funny,
light moments in writing that infertility, which is quite a
feat that help you sort of process you. You then
wound up adopting Olivia indible, wonderful motherhood story. I couldn't
(26:58):
have imagine any other child now. Um yeah, it just
helped me. Like I even say we had gone through
so much, we had gone through it for infertility, IVF,
egg donor uh, when we finally adopted, and I feel
like you do. I have friends sometimes, you know, people
who have adopted, will say why don't you just adopt?
And you just kind of have to go through your
(27:19):
own process of arriving wherever you arrive. I think about children,
but uh, once we started adopting, I felt like, uh,
it just felt like I could be out at a
party drinking wine and having sushi and it's like somebody's
having my baby. I felt so comforting and then and
(27:41):
sometimes people say does the birth mother text or does
she call you? And is that weird? And I'm like,
she gave us a baby, Like I think I can
manage a text. We were in the hospital delivery room
when she delivered our child. She's like, you know, gets
a pass for whatever she whatever she wants to do
to contact us. So yeah, I just feel like, yeah,
(28:01):
it's helped me. I did want to say something I
was thinking, Jill when I was thinking of doing this show,
because I wrote this column Dating Dictionary when you were
a Glamour Um. I learned this important lesson there, which
is so interesting because I feel like I'm still learning
it because I remember for Glamor and for that column,
you often wanted take away like a what women, what
(28:22):
have we learned? And I felt really like if I
knew what I was doing, I would have, you know,
I'd be married, basically would be writing this column on
Saturday night. And it really made me think about why
I was resistant to that, and I think because I
really saw my mission. I didn't even see it as
a mission, but I wanted to commiserate with women. That's
still what I like to do, and like I feel
(28:45):
like the prescriptiveness that we're sometimes looking for, like the
life hacks and the pillars and the you know, everything
is can be a useful tool. But sometimes we just
need to talk to people who are in the same
place as us, and I feel comforted that what we're
going through is totally normal. That can be the most
healing thing to me. And I felt like that's what
I wanted to do with my writing. And that's why
(29:07):
I really enjoyed Sex in the City too, because it
was it was often, you know, just the four women
dicing through, trying to you know, slice and dice a
question and then you could have all different answers that
there wasn't anyone answer. But I did even then start
um kind of keeping my draft of pieces, which I
thought about as like my book draft, even though there
(29:28):
was no book yet, And then I sort of eventually
put those together and they weren't that different, but I
just knew that I wasn't sure I had the answers. Yeah,
complexity doesn't fit well onto a magazine page. What complexity is?
What life is? Do you feel like that's been part
of your Sorry, turn the tables on you part of
your journey to do this kind of thing because you
(29:49):
wanted more complexity or I absolutely do. I mean, you
know me, I'm I'm still searching for prescriptions. I can't
help myself. You're one to you to give us the takeaways.
We need the three hacks before we let you leave.
So sorry, you won't actually be able to You didn't
think you was caring, but we were being nice and
(30:10):
we actually now now that you're married and have a child.
What are those day what were they called the daily
dating Date, Dating Dating Dictionary? Give us three daily Dictionary
and the door to the studio has been locked from
the outside. I'm so sorry to tell you answer your question.
I am. I am far more tolerant of the mess,
(30:32):
and um, far more. I think I've always been willing
to share my personal mess and maybe that's what compelled
me to look for answers from other people, because I
certainly felt that everyone could see the sloppy around me
and in my life. And so yeah, but I would
(30:56):
say that in this kind of in my second act,
it's more about UM flailing around in this bog with
everybody else. UM. And probably this podcast has really has
really helped me with that, because nobody we've had on
has definitive answers, and it's all about the flux nous
of it all. Yeah, and you sometimes just here's something
that speaks to you, or you know one thing that
(31:17):
you want to integrate. It's all sort of tools. Yeah,
we'll welcome to the bog. It's not so bad. Well,
we have really enjoyed being in the bog with you,
so Andy, thank you so much for being here today. Thanks,
thank you for having me and everybody go check out
Cindy's movie coming out August twond on Netflix Otherhood. So
(31:38):
good to be with you, Cindy, and so good to
be with all of our listeners today. Thanks to all
of you and to Alicia Haywood, our producer. Until next time, everyone,
I wanted to commiserate with women. That's still what I
like to do, and like I feel like the prescriptive
nous that we're sometimes looking for, like the life packs
and the pillars and the you know everything is, can
be a useful tool. But sometimes we just need to
talk to people who are in the same place as
us and feel comforted that what we're going through is
(00:22):
totally normal. Hello, and welcome to the podcast where we
talk about navigating the road to change in the most
productive way. I'm Lisa Us and I am Chill Herzig.
And one of my favorite things about doing this podcast
(00:45):
is it has given us both the chance to reconnect
with some old friends and people who we've worked with
a known in our past, and today we get to
I get to introduce you to and all of our
listeners to and old friends. Somebody I worked with in
my distant past as an editor at Glamor magazine who
was a columnist for me and I'm, oh, my god,
(01:08):
someone I adore and have wonderful history with and just
have incredible respect for the work she was doing them,
but also the work she's done since blows me away.
So you got to intro our guests. All right, well
I will I'm in awe. I'm actually feeling a little
intimidated and in the presence of our guests. She is
a two time Emmy Award winner at three time Golden
(01:31):
Globe winner for shows like Modern Families, Sex in the City.
She's written many books bestsellers, and she is now a director. Um,
we are talking about Cindy Shupac. Thank you so much
for being here with us today. Thank you for having
me Hi, I'm intimidated by you. Guys. I was listening
to your podcast from the beginning and I've learned so
(01:52):
many great life hacks and I really started to feel
like I don't have enough advice. You don't need pillars
or whatever you're doing is working magnificently, and so we
wanted to ask you about this new phase of your
life directing, which is like having another baby, and um,
how did you get there? And was this a lifelong dream?
(02:14):
And we don't need a hack. Just by the way,
we are both huge fans of your movie Otherhood, which
is coming August. Second, is that right? Yeah? Second on
Netflix US. By the way, thank you. I know it's
nice to be able to let some people preview it um.
You know, it's been such a long journey with that movie.
(02:36):
It was well. As far as directing, I have really
loved the collaboration I've had with directors as a TV writer,
because I've been writing television for like twenty years and
I've had some really great directors come to episodes of
mine and I've been on set with them. So I've
been around the process for such a long time. But
I've always been a writer collaborating with the director, and
(02:57):
I wasn't one of those writers who always I wanted
to direct. But I will say I think now in retrospect,
that was partly due to so few female role models
that were directors, because as I came up, a lot
of men who worked on TV shows would eventually ask
for in their contract to direct an episode or would
(03:18):
go off and do it. And I think there's you know,
there's been a lot of research that women, if there's
a job advertised, will feel they need what is it,
like fifteen of the fourteen qualifications, and men and men
will feel they can do it with you know, three
of the fourteen qualifications. And so I think in that way,
I wasn't really leaning in and imagining myself doing it.
(03:39):
But I mean, you were kind of overqualified, typical female situation.
You were kind of overqualified for this. But what made
you finally take a leap and reach for this brass
ring in determined why? Um? It was this project, this
movie that's coming out on Netflix. Uh ten years ago.
Over ten years ago, now, I was hired to rewrite
(04:03):
a version of the script that was written by Mark Andrews,
who wrote as Good as It Gets, and it was
based on a British book Whatever makes You Happy? That
was the title of the of the movie for a
long time. Um, I was hired to rewrite it. I
loved the script so much that I really just took
the job because I didn't want anyone to make it
into something else, because it was this beautiful character based
(04:24):
piece about mothers and adult sons. Three women whose sons
grew up together and they start feeling kind of marginalized
and forgotten and decided to go to New York and
make their sons love them again basically. And at the
time I got this rewrite, I didn't even have a
kid yet. I was I was, I think married, but
not not. We didn't have Olivia yet. But I really
(04:44):
related in just that it was this female friendship and
that it was a stage of life where you had
to redefine yourself. And in fact, listening to your podcast
and Simon Sinek and the Why, Um, it was interesting
because I feel like as women, we do have a
lot of stages where we I feel like we've lost
her identity and in our past. When I was a
dating columnist for Glamour for so long, I wrote about dating.
(05:07):
I wrote on sex in the City, and then when
I got married, I really felt like my career is over.
I don't know I was so I just thought this
is when they get married, but Cindy felt, you know,
my career's over. That was the big headline. And then
it took me a while to figure out how to
write about dating, I mean, write about marriage and the
(05:29):
same way I read about dating. My first book was
you Know, but between the between Boyfriend's Book, which is
all about dating, and my second book, UM much later,
was uh, The Longest Date Life as a Wife, and
that was really adjusting to marriage when you're older. But
my goal for that book was to try to write
about marriage in the same way I wrote about dating,
(05:50):
to just be open and honest and funny about it,
and why do people close ranks? So this movie spoke
to me in that same way of just a new
stage for women where they had been defining them selves
as mothers, even if they had careers and other things.
I think you just feel primarily like your raised ondre
is to help bring these kids safely into the world.
(06:11):
And I think when they and then when the kids
go away and you're an empty nester, suddenly you have
the um luxury of time to look around and say, well,
what is the state of my friendships and my marriage
and my relationship with my children that might need to
be redefined in my relationship with my UM career. And
(06:32):
so I loved that about this movie. So I did
the rewrite ten years ago. I it kind of went
in to turn around because it was at Fox Search.
Like the whole movie industry felt like a completely different
beast at that point because there was really the big
blockbusters or the quirky indies and there wasn't a lot
of room for movies like this that I missed, and UM,
(06:53):
mostly male directors kind of didn't see it as something
I think that they really wanted to commit time to.
And there wasn't as much a place in the marketplace,
like I said, so for a long time it just
wanted to turn around. But the producer who originally hired
me and I we I never let this movie go.
I just kept thinking, when is someone going to make
this movie? And I wasn't thinking I would make it.
(07:14):
I just was thinking will it ever come back around
and some director will revive it? And then finally my producer,
who was president of Women in Film, said maybe you
should direct it? And I was thinking of taking a
directing course, and I wanted to sort of have a
film in mind as I was taking it, not as
if i'd actually make it, but just have it to
filter through the course. And that film was the one
(07:37):
I decided I wanted to do. And then we had
a lot of stops and starts, but finally made it.
Finally filmed it in New York with um Angela Bassett
and Patricia Arquette and Felicity Happen. Incredible cast. You mentioned
women in Hollywood or women in Film, but women in
Hollywood in general. It's a lot in the news net
right now and people it's a conversation. Um, what was
(07:59):
your experience like because you're a powerful woman in Hollywood
and and do you have any stories around that. Well,
I've you know, I've been a female in a lot
of mostly male writer's rooms. Sex in the city was
an aberration and kind of a delight that we were
mostly women in um a few men and just such
an open great room. But I've been I kind of say,
(08:21):
when I first started, I was a little bit like
the little sister, kind of non threatening. Everyone's giving you advice,
and um, I was single. I feel like now I'm
kind of Windy and the Lost Boys. When I'm hiers
room and I meet these great women writers and we've
joked about, like, why have we never worked together? And
(08:42):
it's because, oh, usually only one of us can be
in the room at one time, Like there's usually one
high level writer expiracy to keep you all separated from
one another, so we can't talk. But we've found each other. Um.
But for the most part, I have no completes. Like
I've had a great career in Hollywood, and I feel
like I've been able. My writing has helped me find
(09:03):
great jobs. I've worked on shows I've loved. I've worked
in great rooms even when I was one of the
only women, like Everybody Loves Raymond was a mostly male room,
but it was really fun and great people. So uh,
and then you know, I've probably been hired because I'm
a woman in some in a lot of instances, because
I want a female perspective or someone with this you know,
your experience as the reason you're hired a lot of times.
(09:26):
But I will say only until recently this whole Me
Too movement and all this news about the terrible statistics
of how few women direct and are in kind of
gatekeeper positions. Um, I finally felt with this with directing
because right before I did the movie, I also directed
an episode of the show I was working on, which
is I'm Dying up Here, which has had a couple
(09:48):
of seasons on Showtime. UM, great stand up comedy. Yes,
I could feel myself. I had it in my contract.
My husband kind of encouraged me to get it in
my contract for the second year that I would direct
a episode and I never asked for that before, and
he was like, if you want to do your movie,
just do this in the meantime. And so I got
on my contract. But as a second season approach, I
(10:09):
could so feel myself wanting to give them an out,
like give these wanting to say if this is awkward,
because I was so comfortable as a writer I knew.
I just felt like my own nerves. I kept waiting
for someone to say, you know what, every other director
we have as so much more experience, But they didn't
really let me. And Showtime particularly had a mandate to
(10:30):
have more female directors as its almost everybody does right now,
and so it was helpful to them actually to have
me on the slate and to have me who knew
the show very well. Um so actually, I felt like
the difference between trying to kick your way in the
door and having someone actually hold the door open and
kind of edging you into it made a big difference
(10:51):
for me, and I think after hopefully I'll be one
of the directors that is sort of a role model
for other directors eventually. I mean, so many of my
writing friends who are so to lln died. I've just said,
just direct just tried to direct an episode of your show.
Just not to mitigate what directors do, but we do.
We've been around it for so long. When we come back,
we want to go more into your personal stories, back
(11:12):
from the early days in writing. We've been chatting the
Cindy Chupac, the director of the upcoming film other Hood.
But right now I want to switch gears a little
bit and talk about single hood, those days in in
(11:36):
your life when you were pretty much experimenting about what
the next plot line would be Insects in the city.
And also and also I have to ask you to
sort of tell the story of how you you were single,
then you were married, and then you were single again. Yes,
that was my biggest you turn, probably of my life.
(11:57):
I was married. Yeah, I was single. I'm married at
like twenty five to a man who two years later
realized he was gay. And um, now that doesn't even
seem like a moment, because every everything is so fluid now,
I think it's a moment. It was a moment at
(12:19):
the time, it would be a moment for us. Yes,
And it was really like a moment where it felt
like my life because we had had a big wedding
all my friends, you know, I did the big white dress.
It felt really like I was a failure, like I
should have seen this, like he should have seen this.
You know, he didn't know yet. It was an interesting
he hadn't been with a man but felt like he
(12:41):
should figure it out. And let's just say, if somebody's
feeling that way, that that's probably a sorry. So you know,
if I felt like anyone who who divorces, I mean who,
no matter who's if there's a fault, you still feel
like a failure, Like it's a very public thing that
you have to tell all your friends and family what's happening.
(13:03):
And it was a very hard time and I felt
like it was an end. And then only later when
I because I was single for such a long time
after that, and dated and that's when I started writing
for you Jill for Sex in the City, and that
became such a big part of my career and who
I was, and UM that I it was kind of
(13:25):
a gift that I got to do it over and
have that have this big career. And then I eventually
met Ian, who I married, and um and then we
adopted our daughter, Olivia, And there was a big Saint
Bernard in the middle of that somewhere, So you got
to have a do over of being single and have
all these incredible adventures, a lot of which I have
a feeling made their way on the screen in Sex
(13:48):
in the City played much more gracefully by Sarah Jessica
Parker than me. But but just stepping back for a second,
how did having that blow up of your first marriage
and having this sort of public reckoning. How do you
think it reshaped you as a person? What was different
about you after? I think I realized that I hadn't
(14:13):
not that I didn't love Sam who I married, but
I didn't have a lot of thought and intention. I mean,
as much as I wrote in Sex in the City
and as as many questions as CARRY asked, I think
I didn't ask any of those. I didn't really think
about what I wanted my life to look like, or
who I was, what I wanted my career to be,
(14:33):
what kind of partners we would be like. I think
it was just I was so young to marry and
just think this is what it's going to be and
then we'll have kids, and it was sort of like
the narrative that had been written for many many women,
and I was just diving into it. But I think
having to stop and really figure out who I was
and what I wanted to do, and who I wanted
(14:55):
to be, and what I wanted marriage and my life
to look like I mean even I had d it
up eventually buying a house on my own, which I
still live in this house in Raina, del Rey. I
never would have done that. I kind of thought about
my mother, who you know, was married very young and
is still married and never had that moment. In some ways,
that's a gift to be able to take that moment
(15:15):
and figure out who you are separate from a man,
and just kind of create my own identity. So I
felt like after that, everything was a question, and everything
was you know, it was just it was sort of
wide open in a scary but good way, which you've
used a lot of your life experience experiences to right.
(15:37):
Does it ever interfere with your friendships? Like? Are your
friends nervous that whatever goes down is going to end
up on a screen somewhere. So many of my friends
are writers. It's more like we're all nervous about who's
going to get it? Claver happened? I got home and write, Um,
I try. I I don't think my friends are I
(16:00):
think probably men. I you know, when I wrote between
Boyfriend's book and I was writing about dating, I often
just use first names of men, and I always try
to in writing about relationships, and this is just the
way I think anyway I'm trying to I'm the antagonist
of my story. It's not really to take down men
in my life who have had been bad dates or whatever.
(16:21):
It's more to sort of see patterns and commiserate with
other women. So I think that takes this thing out
a little bit. And then when I wrote my book
about marriage, that was a little tricky writing about the
relationship I was and still am hoping to stay in,
and also writing about my daughter, who it's kind of tricky,
I think, to talk and write about your kids because
they wanted to have their own identity, you know, writing
(16:42):
about how she came about. But I just feel my
why if I have one, has been to try to
commiserate and normalize and make relatable these things that so
many women go through and just be honest about it
are sort of most embarrassing, strangest feelings. And I the
(17:05):
more awkward it is to talk about, or the more
I have sort of fear of talking about it, the
more I feel like that's probably an area that needs
to be mind And maybe this is why female friendship
figures hugely in every single thing that you've done. I mean,
it seems like it seems like all of your projects,
that's the through line. Is that that strong endorsement of
(17:27):
the power of female friendship. Yeah, I think when I
finally landed, you know, I had been writing for many
years on other shows, and then I got on Coach,
and then I met Phil Rosenthal and got on Everybody
Loves Raymond from Coach. But I finally Sex in the
City was like what I was going through at the
time I was going through it. I was thirty four
when I joined, and that's the age they most of
(17:48):
the women were, and it just felt right to be
somewhere where I could really write about what everybody I
knew and my girlfriends and I were talking about and
going through. It's sort of opened a door for me
that that's that's the kind of writing I want to
keep doing. And the other hood actually, um, it's the
women in the movie are friends because their kids went
to school together. Their three boys went to school together
(18:10):
in Poughkeepsie, and now they're three boys have moved off
to New York. And I've met and made so many
good friends through my daughter and in fact, my birthdays
coming up and we're doing at dinner with all like
preschool parent friends, even though she's in second grade now.
But you I feel like you make this tribe out
of what you're going through and those are the people
you really need and and and they have information you
(18:31):
need and like your podcast and the I think this
stage for women is, um, you kind of need your
tribe to help you get through it. Yeah, back to
other hood. You're not in that stage of life right now.
Your daughter is eight years old. Were so late I'm
in that stage. But the stories about women who have
(18:53):
men who are out of college or sons who are
you know, Senser out of college? How how do you
how do you put yourself in that and so you
could really understand what they were going through? Um. You know,
I think emotionally, I just connect emotionally to characters and
to stories, and I can usually figure out sort of
the kernel of truth that feels relatable to me and
(19:15):
feels real. And also just as someone who has a
mom and has been an adult child of a mom,
I kind of related through the boy's point of view
as well. But yeah, I feel like that moment of
identity crisis and reinvention and thinking, you know, who am
I now and even though I'm late to the child game,
I'm the same age as these women basically, and have
(19:39):
you know, my marriage has been on going on a
long time. So just the thought just you know, kind
of figuring out what is the second half of your
life going to be? I feel like I can relate
to that, even though it's not based completely in an
empty nest yet for me, I feel like I can
relate to that too. Perhaps it motivated the two of
us to do this podcast. I wonder the second half
of life is a big it's a it's a it's
(20:00):
a it's a big change. Yeah, And isn't it. It's
so interesting because we really are living longer, so we
have I think, what is basically an extra quarter that
didn't used to figure in. I mean, it kind of
was like we were supposed to be on the down slope,
and now you really can be. You kind of get
the chance, I think, to do a do over. I
(20:21):
know there's programs now for people to want to who
want to re educate, even if you had a successful career,
like kind of just deciding what you want to do
for the next half. So it's sort of an exciting opportunity.
But yeah, it's a little daunting to think, oh my god,
I'm I still have half life to fill. What am
I going to do with this time? When we come back,
we're going to talk more about what we're gonna do
(20:43):
with this time. Before the break, we just touched on
this second half of life transition, I think where we
either kind of stagnate or we figure out we reinvent ourselves,
(21:09):
so we figure out something new. And so was the
directing for you, Cindy a conscious transformation or did you
just kind of fall into it? You know? I would say, Um,
I do feel excited that I did something I was
scared of because I was scared and intimidated by it.
(21:29):
And it felt good at this age to do something
that scared me a bit and to feel like I
conquered it and to be And it opens up a
whole new way. I can still work as right as
a writer, but I could also direct episodes of shows
I love, or you know, write my own movie or
directed a movie that I read. So it's just opened
up a lot of possibilities. I don't feel like I'm
(21:50):
completely changing course and now I'm a director, but it's
uh it's nice to ay, it's just nice to do
something you're scared of and feel like you can do it.
And and ways I think I needed to be older
and more surefooted and in a way have my daughter
because for some reason, having a kid makes me feel
like nothing is that scary, because I'm raising a person,
(22:15):
Like that's the scariest thing I can imagine, the biggest responsibility. Yeah, yeah,
nothing only seems impossible. Now, talk a little bit about
your journey to motherhood, because it's something you chronicle in
the Longest Date. It's not just about marriage, it's also
about struggle with infertility. Talk about about getting honest on that.
(22:36):
Um well, yeah, The Longest Day was something I wanted
to write while I was still in it because we
were you know, I married in when I was forty,
so it shouldn't have been a big surprise that it
was hard to have a child, but we But we
did go through it all and had to go through
every stage, and I had so many friends going through
it too, And it's just a very ring thing. It's
(23:00):
trying on your marriage. The idea that you're trying to
have a baby is still trying, and it's hard to
remember once you get through it, you almost want to
forget it because you just don't ever need all that
information again about when you're ovulating or any of the
things that drove your life during that time. But also
I think I realized in a way I hadn't that
when I'm I had known women in the past of
(23:23):
friends who had had miscarriages, and I think I didn't
quite understand the gravity of that and how much grief
was involved in that, and all your hopes and dreams
that you were about to have a baby. So I
felt very connected to a lot of things that women
were going through and had gone through, and I wanted
to write something that was somehow funny but honest about
(23:44):
that time. And so when I started writing that book,
I was in the middle of it still, and I
find writing about things that I'm still struggling with, are
still dealing with, um to be better for me. In fact,
on Sex in the City, we used to assign stories
based on how who was the most afraid of it,
whoever had the most issues around it. Was a perfect
(24:05):
writer for it because you really had to sort of
struggle through and get to the truth of what your
fears were, what you're so that that hurt, you could
hurt a lot. But I think, you know, it's interesting
because I can see that in sex in the city
and in a lot of other things, and certainly in
other hood that all all this work that you've done,
there's a real happy sad, there's a there's a real
(24:28):
combination of grieving for something, um, letting go of dreams,
reaching for something new, laughing at the absurdity of it all. Um.
I don't know. I think you're I think you're the
master of this well laughing through tears. I you know,
I was thinking about that because I have to say,
like listening to your podcast and just in general in
the world, there is a lot of emphasis on happiness.
(24:49):
There's a lot of like how do we find joy?
How do we find happiness? How do we And I'm
not saying we should go looking for sadness, but I
think trying to push it aside or avoid it is
um is, at least for me, missing the point sometimes
because there's so much growth and it's so balanced is
out the happy, and they're so intertwined. Sometimes for me
and things that are very emotional, there's so much growing there,
(25:13):
and there's just a lot to unpack always and anyway,
I think I'm not saying I wanted to lead the
new movement to find your sadness. I don't think that's
my role in life sadness. You that are sad, I mean,
but you seem it seems to me that much of
(25:34):
your body, of your work is humorous. You use humor
a lot. What do you think of the is the
role of humor in processing things like like truth which
involves sadness? Yeah, I mean that's just my go to
and I just feel like there's there is usually there's
just sort of humor and heart in most of the
(25:55):
world the way I see it, and I feel like
I'm always kind of looking for that or just find
it accident. I don't know if I don't feel very
funny today, so maybe people are like, are you funny?
I was. It's more like the writing. I mean, I
find it in the writing more um or. I find
humor and when when people are telling me stories or something,
but I, uh, yeah, I find that to just be
(26:17):
so healing. I mean, I feel like humor is the
way to get across hard messages, and you know, it's
just the way to get through it sometimes and even
I think balancing the humor and the heart is. I mean,
that's something I just strive to do because I feel
like I don't want it to be just funny and
not substantial, and I don't want it to be just
(26:38):
earnest and sad without some levity. So it's just a
balance I'm trying to find. You managed to have some funny,
light moments in writing that infertility, which is quite a
feat that help you sort of process you. You then
wound up adopting Olivia indible, wonderful motherhood story. I couldn't
(26:58):
have imagine any other child now. Um yeah, it just
helped me. Like I even say we had gone through
so much, we had gone through it for infertility, IVF,
egg donor uh, when we finally adopted, and I feel
like you do. I have friends sometimes, you know, people
who have adopted, will say why don't you just adopt?
And you just kind of have to go through your
(27:19):
own process of arriving wherever you arrive. I think about children,
but uh, once we started adopting, I felt like, uh,
it just felt like I could be out at a
party drinking wine and having sushi and it's like somebody's
having my baby. I felt so comforting and then and
(27:41):
sometimes people say does the birth mother text or does
she call you? And is that weird? And I'm like,
she gave us a baby, Like I think I can
manage a text. We were in the hospital delivery room
when she delivered our child. She's like, you know, gets
a pass for whatever she whatever she wants to do
to contact us. So yeah, I just feel like, yeah,
(28:01):
it's helped me. I did want to say something I
was thinking, Jill when I was thinking of doing this show,
because I wrote this column Dating Dictionary when you were
a Glamour Um. I learned this important lesson there, which
is so interesting because I feel like I'm still learning
it because I remember for Glamor and for that column,
you often wanted take away like a what women, what
(28:22):
have we learned? And I felt really like if I
knew what I was doing, I would have, you know,
I'd be married, basically would be writing this column on
Saturday night. And it really made me think about why
I was resistant to that, and I think because I
really saw my mission. I didn't even see it as
a mission, but I wanted to commiserate with women. That's
still what I like to do, and like I feel
(28:45):
like the prescriptiveness that we're sometimes looking for, like the
life hacks and the pillars and the you know, everything
is can be a useful tool. But sometimes we just
need to talk to people who are in the same
place as us, and I feel comforted that what we're
going through is totally normal. That can be the most
healing thing to me. And I felt like that's what
I wanted to do with my writing. And that's why
(29:07):
I really enjoyed Sex in the City too, because it
was it was often, you know, just the four women
dicing through, trying to you know, slice and dice a
question and then you could have all different answers that
there wasn't anyone answer. But I did even then start
um kind of keeping my draft of pieces, which I
thought about as like my book draft, even though there
(29:28):
was no book yet, And then I sort of eventually
put those together and they weren't that different, but I
just knew that I wasn't sure I had the answers. Yeah,
complexity doesn't fit well onto a magazine page. What complexity is?
What life is? Do you feel like that's been part
of your Sorry, turn the tables on you part of
your journey to do this kind of thing because you
(29:49):
wanted more complexity or I absolutely do. I mean, you
know me, I'm I'm still searching for prescriptions. I can't
help myself. You're one to you to give us the takeaways.
We need the three hacks before we let you leave.
So sorry, you won't actually be able to You didn't
think you was caring, but we were being nice and
(30:10):
we actually now now that you're married and have a child.
What are those day what were they called the daily
dating Date, Dating Dating Dictionary? Give us three daily Dictionary
and the door to the studio has been locked from
the outside. I'm so sorry to tell you answer your question.
I am. I am far more tolerant of the mess,
(30:32):
and um, far more. I think I've always been willing
to share my personal mess and maybe that's what compelled
me to look for answers from other people, because I
certainly felt that everyone could see the sloppy around me
and in my life. And so yeah, but I would
(30:56):
say that in this kind of in my second act,
it's more about UM flailing around in this bog with
everybody else. UM. And probably this podcast has really has
really helped me with that, because nobody we've had on
has definitive answers, and it's all about the flux nous
of it all. Yeah, and you sometimes just here's something
that speaks to you, or you know one thing that
(31:17):
you want to integrate. It's all sort of tools. Yeah,
we'll welcome to the bog. It's not so bad. Well,
we have really enjoyed being in the bog with you,
so Andy, thank you so much for being here today. Thanks,
thank you for having me and everybody go check out
Cindy's movie coming out August twond on Netflix Otherhood. So
(31:38):
good to be with you, Cindy, and so good to
be with all of our listeners today. Thanks to all
of you and to Alicia Haywood, our producer. Until next time, everyone,
Road to Somewhere News
Hosts And Creators
Lisa Oz
Jill Herzig
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