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May 20, 2020 35 mins

If there is an upside to be found through the devastation of a global pandemic, it has to be the opportunity to reassess everything and pare down to the barest necessities. Without our typical distractions, it becomes easy to measure the presence of love in your life, or lack thereof. And isn’t love the one thing we’re reaching for more than anything in these uncertain times? What’s getting in the way of the relationships we need to sustain us? Are you attracting what you really want from a relationship? In this episode, we unpack Let That Sh*t Go: A Journey to Forgiveness, Healing, and Understanding Love, with author Bruna Nessif. @Brunaaaaa @probwithdating @brunanessif

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Episode Transcript

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Speaker 1 (00:05):
There's not so much. You know, what do you need
me to do to prove I don't have to prove anything,
and you don't have to prove anything. And that's been
the lesson that's kind of been coming up for me
now is to practice unconditional love, which is always the goal.
Then you have to accept people as they are or
let them go. Thanks for joining us on the road

to Somewhere where we talk about exploration, adventure made your
life change and transformation is not not necessarily knowing where
we're going, but having faith that the journey will be worthwhile.
I'm Lisas and I am Jill Herzig, and I think
it's fair to say that in this podcast, we definitely
don't know where we're going because neither one of us

has had vast experience with dating. Oh this is true.
Yesterday's the miss dating and we're old ladies who nothing.
My god, I've been with my husband so long since
you were in middle school. You know, we knew each
other since we were six, but we waited until we

were sophomores in college. And let's just say that I
did not have a massive amount of experience between those
two times. So thankfully our guest today, we'll be able
to help us navigate that treacherous territory. She's the founder
of the Problem with Dating, which is a multimedia platform
and the author of Let That Ship Go, A Journey

to Forgiveness, healing and understanding love. Brunanessef is with us today.
Thank you so much for joining us. Of course, thank
you for having me. And I gotta say, don't feel
bad for not knowing anything about dating, because it's it's
not necessarily an experience you want to have for very long. Well,
I think part of the problem is we're just so

old too. I mean I dated in high school and
it's just so long ago. And yeah, I mean even
if we had dated for a really long time back
when we were dating, the universe has completely changed. There
is there was no swiping, there were no cell phones then.
So yeah, your book is called Let that Ship Go.

Can we talk about that ship And what exactly do
you mean by that? Oh, my gosh, so much shit. Um.
Let that Ship Go is centered around basically letting go
of limiting beliefs and blocks that I was having with
myself that we're bleeding into my relationships and so initially

when it came to dating, and even when creating the
Problem with Dating, which first came up seven years ago,
I was in a completely different headspace and so it
was very easy for me to vent and talk about, Oh,
all these people are doing ABC and D. But at
some point I had to come to terms with the
fact of, oh, wow, I'm experiencing the same thing with

different people, So maybe I'm the common denominator and maybe
this is something I need to work on with myself.
Talk and you say in your book that you're both
the villain and the hero of the story, right, because
I think we're so quick to point the finger because
it's comfortable and it and it makes the quote problem,

which it's not a problem, it's a learning opportunity, but
it makes it distant from us, so it makes it
easier to kind of tuck away. And for me, I
knew early on I want to be the best person
I can possibly be, and if that means that I
have to look at my own ship, then I'm going
to do that. And it just so happened that throughout
that process I started writing a book and the title

was actually a very last minute, impulsive decision, and it
was one of those things where I kept, you know,
rereading it to edit, and I was like, I just
I don't like this title that I'm working with because
origin and I wanted to call it Dear You. And
the the idea behind that was after every chapter, which

illustrates a different relationship with very a different man, to
illustrate how I learned love and practiced love and all
of that. I wanted to write a letter to each
person and kind of close it out, but then I
was like, you're still making it about them. So then
I was like, Okay, let's let's scrap that and start over.
And I realized in every chapter I was letting something go,

and not just the person, but the idea or the
belief or the pattern that I kept doing. And so
I always say, let that ship go because that is
something I need to learn. And so it just it
came about in that way. Tell us some of the
things that you let go through the writing of this book.
The chapters were we're very I was carried along with it,

but I think it's so great to share. Oh thank you.
It's funny because there's a lot of overlap with the
things I needed to let go. If you get down
to the route, But there was a lot of you know, codependency.
There is a lot of um that expectation that oh,
when I meet the right guy, he'll save me and
I'll be all all better and great. Um which is

that goes back to the hero villain part. You know,
I was waiting for my night and shining armor to
come stroll in and and then life would be beautiful
because we be in love and everything would be easy.
And then I quickly realized like, oh, no, he whoever
he is, is not going to be able to save me.
That's my job. I let go of limiting beliefs with dating.
I let go of trauma that stemmed from my relationship

with my father, because as you go through the book,
you know, I'm talking about different guys I've dated or
had situation ships with or whatever that was. And ultimately
it kind of, you know, from the bare bones of
psychology that I did study when that was my initial major,
I was like, let me look at my relationship with
my dad real quick, and everything just started to kind

of unravel and so I had to deal with that
relationship and how that played out and have very tough
conversations with my dad. That's probably the most vulnerable chapter
of the book because it's so close to my heart
and and obviously my life. But that was kind of
like if you picture a sweater blanket with a little

piece of thread sticking out and you pull that thread
and everything unravels after that. That was my dad. So
once I started to really dive deep into that relationship,
I started to see the patterns that I was creating
because of what I wanted to fix within that relationship
through these other men. When when you did unpack the
relationship with your dad, did the relationships with men shift?

Was it perceptible? Yeah, And I mean this work is ongoing,
so it's still happening. Um with my dad, it was
tough because I realized at that time I was seeking
praise from other men because I wasn't getting the praise
I wanted from my father, or I was seeking the

protection or the consistency or things that my father just
couldn't give me at that time. And what that led
to was a lot of uncomfortable conversations with my dad.
So in a way, kind of clearing that out and realizing, like, oh,
I grew up thinking that this is love. I grew

up thinking that being distant or having to prove myself
or having to do all these different hurdles to prove
I was worthy of love is the type of relationship
you have with a man. And then at some point
I was like, but I'm exhausted, Like how do I
just can I just be me and find someone who
accepts me for who I am? And the answer is,

of course yes. But I had to shift that programming
in my head and so it did change. But it's
also one of those you know, subconsciously, I'm so used
to just automatically going to, Oh, I like this guy.
Let me prove that I'm I'm a catch, you know,
let me prove that I'm worth his time. The funny

thing with dating is it's exhausting and it's frustrating sometimes,
but you you can't get better if you're not practicing.
So for a long time I was. I was single
for nine years. Granted I had a lot of situation
ships there, which was also practice, but I had to
put myself out there in order to to fix and
improve these patterns and kind of catch myself because otherwise,

when you're single and the loan, it's like, well, I
only have to deal with myself, and that's comfortable. You
have to bring someone else into the picture. I really
like you're reframing though. I mean, the term situation ships
is a funny and be so true of what you know.
I see young women dealing with uma, and I think
that reframing of of this as practice painful. There's some

skinning of the knees, like when you fell off your bike.
But this is absolutely this is just something you need
to do. It's very rewarding. And that's the thing is,
you know, it's it's I understand if people are like
I don't want to I don't want to dive into
this inner work. I don't want to deal with anything.
Let me just push it down, push it back, whatever
you want to do. It makes sense. It's exhausting. It

takes a lot of um questioning the reality that you
just kind of accepted or the behaviors that you just
kind of accepted and didn't question. But when you do
kind of get over that hump, or even when you
start to get a little bit of reassurance, which for
me was attracting better quality men or being able to

bounce back quicker than I used to, I was like, okay,
something's working, Like something's happening. And even with my dad,
we you know, we're continuing to work on our relationship,
but I think it was maybe last week or so
we FaceTime because he lives in Lebanon, so we do
have distance, but he's actively trying to rebuild this relationship.

And our last conversation was by far the best conversation
we've ever had my entire life, and I saw a
completely new side to him. I was like, Wow, this
is the dad that I always wanted and I didn't
know that I would get him. And that alone, to
me was like people can change if they really want to,
but they have to do that on their own. And
for me, it was like I realized I was kind

of holding onto this narrative and I was kind of
holding him into this character in my story to be like, oh,
my dad was emotionally distant and da da da, and
that's why I'm this way and everything. And at some
point I had to let that ship go and I
was like, wow, I'm really I'm forcing him to be
this man that I knew for so long, but he's

actively trying to change that and become the man I need.
So let me free him from that and see him
for who he is right now, and maybe that will
also help and our healing with each other and also
with the way I approach relationships with other men. We'll
be right back. So before the break, we had delved

into your relationship with your dad and how that it
really influenced your approach to dating. But I want to
circle back onto the dating itself, especially today, and I think,
I would you look so young, I think you're millennial.
I would hazard a guess that you're a millennial. Do

you think the issues around dating are are unique today?
Are they? Are they different than they've ever been? And
what do you see as the challenges to dating as
a millennial? Um, I definitely think it's unique. I think
our generation is experiencing new hurdles of dating. I don't

think dating was ever necessarily easy. But it's funny because
there are certain aspects to dating now that can either
help or hurt you. And sometimes there's an overlap, the
obvious one being you know, with the digital boom and
the dating apps, we now have so much more range
and we have so much more access to people that
we may never have come across otherwise. So before it

was more so like, okay, well my dating pool is
limited to who is around, right, So you're going out
and oh, there's a cute guy at the bar, like
maybe he'll talk to me whatever, or your neighbor or
school or whatever that may be, and there's somebody someone
you know is going to introduce you to, which used
to be a thing that people did. Right now it's like, oh,

we have twenty dating apps. Let's get on all of
them and see who sparks interest. And in a way,
it's like I get it, and that as someone who
personally is not at LSA anymore the biggest fan of
going out all the time, it's it's convenient. Let me
just swipe on my couch while I binge watch a

show and see if anyone seems intriguing. But the issue
with that is it loses the humanity side of things,
and so what you do end up doing is kind
of just having these pseudo interviews through text, the same
one over and over and over again, and you lose

that connection of oh, this is this is another human
being I'm talking to. Because when you're going through everything
on your phone, even with social media or whatever it
may be, you know it's another person, but you still
almost treat it as if it's just a character or
a game because it's an avatar. You're not having that
face to face connection. Now, a lot of people are

quick to talk badly about dating apps for that reason.
You know, if you have some any options, you can't
make a decision. No one invests in anyone anymore because
you're afraid you're going to miss out on someone better.
So there's always that that in the back of your
mind of well, they're cool, but there's this one thing
that's kind of like, let me just go back on

the app and see if someone is better. So there
is like it seems like a less less of an
inclination to invest in one person and really cultivate that
relationship and take the time to let it grow. But
at the same time, and this is me, I always
argue both sides to everything, so complicated topic it is,

but I'm also like, let me try to see this
from a different perspective to try and gain some clarity,
and dating apps from a business perspective makes sense. You know,
there's a lot of singles and and now there's a
lot of you know, with social media, it just makes sense.
But to blame dating apps, I don't know anymore, because
at the end of the day, it's just technology. It's

a facilitator for hum in connection, but it's the person
and how they use it. So in a way, I'm
almost like, well, this is actually just a platform that
is giving more people an opportunity to show their character.
So if I don't like the way this guy is
talking to me, or a lot of the way these

guys are approaching dating, am I really going to get
mad at the app? Or am I just seeing a
side of them quicker than I would have not seen before?
So what else? What are the sort of what are
the habits, the dating habits, or the approaches or the
mindset that you get yourself in and that you now
sort of counsel other women to get themselves in um

and men too. I mean, how should they be used?
What's what is the best use for for What are
best practices to keep the humanity elements part of it?
I think one of the biggest things, and this might
span beyond just the dating ass but know what you
want out of it and be upfront about that. I
think with women especially, we're so quick to be called

clingy or needy that we try to play it cool
and it's like, oh no, it's fine, we can just
see where this goes when you're like, no, I'm looking
for a relationship, and so you often that's where the
situation ships come in because you are afraid to ask
for what you want and need out of fear of
being seen as too needy or clingy, when in reality

it's when you put out what you want, you'll get
what you want. But if you are afraid to ask
for what you want, you're going to be stuck in
this in this midpoint. And that goes for the opposite too.
If all you want is a casual hookup, make that known.
And there's a lot of people who are like, oh no,
that's gonna seem some type of way, and it's like
to the wrong people, yeah, to those who don't want

the same thing as you, yeah, but you don't want
to mess with them anyway. So there are other people
who want the same things as you. So my advice
is always be upfront about what you want. So is
that what you're putting out into the dating app universe
right now, like I really want to relationship or where
are you I am. I am not on any dating apps.

I have come to I have come to the point
where I'm like, I want to just organically meet someone,
like before you know, oh my gosh, you're at the
same place at the same time, and there's a common
interest already because you're at the same place at the
same time, and you just speak to each other. When
I was on the dating apps, I definitely was not

upfront about what I wanted out of fear of being judged.
So that's why I kept ending up with guys who
either never initiated a meet up but just wanted someone
to talk to all the time, or guys who were
very quick to be like, oh hey, let's grab drinks tonight.
And for me, and I mentioned this in the book

because there were a couple of guys in the book
who were from dating app connections, I'm very like I
watched too much Law and Order, Like I watched too
much of it, Like I I had to cut down
on Law and Order in lifetime because I was just like, oh,
this is you want to grab drinks tonight. I don't
even know you, Like you could be a killer, It's
gonna at the end of the night, right And that's

but that's a valid concern. I mean, safety is a
big issue now, and so you don't necessarily know the person.
So for me, it was very much either one side
or the other. Guys that didn't even want to initiate
a real date, or guys who were so quick that
it was like, m like, what are you actually after?
Or guys that would literally just message you off top

with hey, do you want to have sex tonight? And
I'm like, no, thank you, but we have a night
reading your it doesn't seem like it mattered where you
met them. Um, whether it was on an app or
through a friend, there seemed to be sort of a
common thread with all of them, regardless of where they
came from. Your approach seemed like they needed fixing. And

it seems like you were working, whether it was digitally
or at home, you were looking for guys who needed fixing.
Would that be an accurate assessment of your profile? That
would be a very accurate Thank you for reminding me.
So how is that? How has the way that you

look at yourself change the type of man you're looking for?
So I've definitely played the fixer role for a very
long time, and I'd be lying if I said that
wasn't still alive in me. Still, it's something that is
very hard to let go of, not just because of

the dating, but just because of the work I do.
The lines get blurred, you know. So I I write
about dating, I talk about love. I am a certified
life coach, like I talk about personal development all of that,
and that's great and dandy. I mean, it's my passion,
but it leaks into attracting emotionally unavailable men who for

whatever reason are interested in that type of healing, whether
they are conscious of it or not. So what ends
up happening is I attrack these relationships with men who
are like maybe want to be better or just need
someone to listen. But then I become their therapists. I
don't become their partner. And that's something that I've had

to really build some discernment around so that I can
be the one to be like, listen, it's beautiful that
you feel safe enough to talk to me, and I
absolutely want to be a support system for you, but
I cannot take that role within our relationship. That has
to be someone else that does that. And so that's
been the tough part because for me growing up and

doing this work. I was like, oh, well, when you
love someone, that's what you do, like, you take care
of them and you do all these things. I'm like, okay,
but who's taking care of me? And so I had
to be really strict about that and and learn at
me trying to play the fixer role was actually me
doing two things. One was again proving my worth. Oh,

if I show them that I can do this, then
they'll want to keep me around. And two was well,
when I focus on what they need fixing on, then
I don't have to focus on myself and I don't
have to deal with my own fixing. When we come back,
I want to talk more about our own fixing and
specific advice for everybody out there and in this room

who could probably use some fixing advice. So before the break,
they just talked about a little bit about specific fixing advice.
And you mentioned that you're a life coach, And what
I loved about your book was the end of it
where you actually gave people questions to do a little

self reflection so you they could self direct where they
needed to grow. Can we just walk through some of
that advice that you give people out there? Who are
looking to improve their dating level of intimacy and ready
to look inward. Yeah, so I think the first step
is just making that decision, which sounds easier than it

actually is, because it's making a commitment to yourself. You know,
we're so easy to try and make commitments to other
people because we seek that external validation when really it's okay, no,
I'm going to commit to myself for once and kind
of focus on that. And so there's a lot of
the last chapter of chapter ten is all about you,
and I knew I wanted to make this an interactive

experience because you just read my entire story and I'm
hopeful that you related to different themes and messages. But
let's not forget why you picked up this book. If
you picked up the book, there's something you want to
let go of. So these questions are really you know,
what does love even look like? The most basic questions

that you don't even think about. What does love look
like to me? How do I show love? How am
I showing love on a consistent basis? How do I
receive love? You know? What are the patterns that I'm
I keep seeing? What is something that I keep running into?
And I'm dating. And these aren't the specific questions in
the back of the book, um, but it's those types

of questions that seem almost too simple to acknowledge that
are the most important. Because love alone, which is my
passion just talking about love, we use it in conversations
so much, we use it as inspiration, we talk about
it all the time, but we don't talk about how
we all grew up to see and practice love differently.

And so we get into these relationships assuming, well, he
he knows I love him because I do A, B,
C and D or vice versa. It's like, no, but
you've never even talked about what love you need and
how you show love, and deeper than that, you've not
you haven't even had that conversation with yourself. What do
I need? What do I want? We don't ask these questions.

We just kind of take whatever comes. So it's really
going back to basics and trying to figure out what
love looks like for you and how you want to
practice that into your relationship is not just romantic but
any relationship for that matter. And when you're coaching people
and you're asking them those questions and getting them to
focus that way, sometimes I imagine you're going to get

answers like, well, I just want somebody who adores me
unconditionally and just as it's there for me, and um,
you know, knows my needs before I without my even
having to tell him or her or whatever. So what
do you do with that? Because that's I think that's
something that you really had to work through in a way, right,

And so if someone were to say that, my immediate
question would be why is that important to you? And
then you start to see, well, okay, I want someone
who anticipates my needs as an example, why is that
important to you? Because I often feel like I anticipate
other people's needs and they don't anticipate mine, for an example. Okay,

So that alone tells me that you don't feel like
your efforts being reciprocated in the relationship. However, you are
also assuming that role. No one's asking you to anticipate
anyone's needs. You do that on your own. And that's
actually one of the things that a lot of codependent

relationships have, and I speak from experience, is in my mind,
I'm like, oh, well, if I can anticipate their needs,
and it shows love and care and in some cases,
it does. But when it starts to become a pattern
where I'm always doing that and I'm not getting it
in return, yeah, it sucks. But at the same time,
they didn't ask you to anticipate their needs. You're doing

that on your own accord, because that's how you grew
up to see love. Maybe you had a mother who
anticipated your needs and so you grew up seeing her
always doing things without you having to ask, and now
you want that because that's what you think love is. Meanwhile,
your partner might be, like you know, love languages for example.
To me, that's an act of service. You're anticipating needs

for them. It might be physical touch. So it's just
that discord of okay, so why is that important to you?
Where did that show up growing up or where didn't
it show up? Because a lot of us, also in
that realm, don't anticipate our own needs, or we don't
focus on our own needs because we don't think our
needs matter as much as the people around us. And

that's that's already a discord because you can't give to
someone what you're not giving to yourself. Is this a
conversation that you would initiate with someone that you're dating, Like, dude,
what do you need to know? What do I need
to show you to prove that I love you? And
this is what I need from you? Is that? Is
that a dialogue that you have when you start dating someone.

I don't know if it's a dialogue right off the bat.
I think it's one of those, you know, touch and
go subjects. But if it's someone that I I feel
is a serious relationship in the making or someone I
see myself investing, and then absolutely, but it's not so
much you know, what do you need me to do
to prove I don't have to prove anything, and you

don't have to prove anything. And that's been the lesson
that's kind of been coming up for me now is
to practice unconditional love, which is always the goal. Then
you have to accept people as they are or let
them go instead of trying to fix or trying to
change or trying to do any of that. And so
that's when this conversation get comes in handy because then

you can be like, Okay, I'm noticing some you know,
misalignment or there's not a lot of you know, reciprocation,
So let's touch base, let's do let's do a pulse check.
What do you want? What do you need? And that
alone sounds simple, but so many people don't take the
time to figure that out for themselves that they can't

share that with someone else. And that is the first step.
If you don't know what you want, if you don't
know what you need, how could I possibly give it
to you? Because I'm running blind and the same goes
for me. So sometimes it's just it's definitely a dialogue
I think would be helpful because if my partner says, Okay,
I need space when there's an argument because I need

to process. I need time to myself. I need the
freedom to do a B, C and D. Or I
need affection when there is conflict. I need you to
pull me in closer rather than push me away. So
these are things that you can be like, okay, should
conflict arise. I know that if I don't hear from
them for a little bit, they're processing, they're not ignoring me.

Or I need to be more affectionate for them to
show up for them. So I definitely think it's a
conversation to have. I don't know that it's a first
date conversation, but something that when you feel comfortable with
the person. And I think it happens naturally because when
you begin to love someone, you want to show up
the best way you can for them. So I love

that your book doesn't fingerpoint and doesn't blame. It's not
just a giant vent about how awful men are these
days and oh my god, it's so hard to find
a decent expletive deleted boyfriend. Why can't anybody just show
up the way I want them to? Um? Because I
hear a lot of that, But I wonder if, I mean,

what do we need from men? Like you know, what
do we need from them? It does feel as though,
um gramar, we used to joke a sperm brank in Nebraska. Sorry, Well,
you know a lot of women are getting along, getting

along just fine with with that being the only contribute contribution.
I guess I'm just wondering, like it does like the
landscape of dating has changed so much, and it does
feel to me like as much personal work as you do,
yes there are, you are still going to meet some
guys who are just super annoying and like won't like,

won't do the intimacy part of it, won't tell you
what they need really just kind of want to be
sort of friends with benefits until they don't really want
to text you back anymore at all. Like I don't know,
now I'm venting about boyfriends I don't even have, But
I just I hear a lot of spaceway thinking for

a friend. Okay, No, I think everything you said is
extremely valid and accurate, and it's definitely it's hard to
say because everyone has their own idea of what that
answer is. But for me personally, what I've noticed, um,
in an attempt to be general all I really feel

for the guys, and I know that my work. The
assumption is that, oh, she probably just talked about guys
all day and vents and it is like one of
those bitter betties that is single forever because she hates
men or whatever. And I'm like, Okay, if that's the
assumption that makes you comfortable, you run with that and
go with it. But if you actually take the time
to read my work and get to know me and

what what I do, you'll know that's not the case
at all, because and you know, obviously I'm speaking in
heterosexual relationships. Men are very much a part of this conversation.
So why would I want to shut them out the differences.
As women, we grew up feeling very okay to be emotional,
feeling very okay to have these intimate conversations, feeling not

only okay, but you know, push to be intimate and
romantic and nurturing and all these things. Men did not
have that same luxury. And I feel like that's one
of the biggest shifts that we're releasing right now, is this,
you know, promoting men to do the work, to do
the to take care of their mental health, to go
to therapy, to you know, really start to unpack the

conditioning that they were given. And that's been probably one
of the tougher things to deal with dating wise now,
because we're in an age where so many people are
opening up to the idea of self work and personal
development that when you do it for yourself, you don't
want to be with someone who's not on the same level.
It's draining and it's a lot, and then you fall

into the fixer role and you're like, I just did
all this for myself, I can't do it for you too,
And you can't do it regardless, because that's their work
to do, and so it's just a matter of finding
someone who whether they're not on the same part of
their journey as you, is fine, but at least they're
curious and they're open and they're like, Okay, this is new.

This might have been taboo in their family or their upbringing.
You know, men and emotion in an intimacy and oh
my gosh, what is this. I don't want to do
any of this, But if that is going to make
you a better person, regardless of this relationship, just you
for yourself, why not do it? You know? And so
for someone like me who is very much into this

world my partner, I need my partner to be very
committed to themselves and to understand, Okay, these are the
areas of my life that I've kind of just held
onto that are not helping me. What am I going
to do to fix that? And there's no one route

to do that. It's whatever you feel comfortable with and
whatever works for you. But it's the fact of showing
up every day for yourself and doing that. And I
think now that more men are kind of tiptoeing into that,
the dating scene hopefully will be better for it, because
you're having too conscious individuals coming together and create being

a union that benefits both of them as a unit
but also individually, and that's always the goal. Well, it's
great advice. That's what we are striving to do here
on the Road to Somewhere, to remain curious and open,
and I think it's awesome advice for anyone. Thank you
so much for being with us today. Oh my gosh,
thank you for having me. This is a great conversation.

And you can find Bruna's book everywhere. It's called Let
That Ship Go, a Journey to Forgiveness, Healing and Understanding Love.
And also connect with her on Instagram at Bruna with
Lots of A's at the End or at prob with
Dating and on Twitter She's at bruns. The Road to

Somewhere is recorded in New York City. Make sure you share, subscribe, rate,
and review us and let us hear from you. Where
are you on your journey? Connect with us on Instagram
and Twitter at pod to Somewhere. Email us at Road
to Somewhere at iHeartMedia dot com. Special thanks to our
producer Alicia Haywood. Thanks for joining us in the Road

to Somewhere. Available on the I Heart Radio app, on
Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts,

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Lisa Oz

Lisa Oz

Jill Herzig

Jill Herzig

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