July 24, 2019 • 31 mins
It’s never too late to find the race you want to run in this life, says the iconic Marlo Thomas, as she illuminates the connection between reinvention and longevity.
Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.com
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
There's so many voices in our heads. It's a decision
for all of us to turn the volume up on
the one that we really need, you know, because you
can hear the voice that says, oh, it's too late,
you can't do this now. And there's another voice that says, well,
you know, Lisa did it or something, your mom did
it or your mother didn't do it, or whatever it is.
You have all these little voices and you have to
really look around you, you know, notice how other people
(00:23):
are are making it work with them. Hello, and welcome
to our podcast. This is the place where we talk
about all good things on this piled journey of life.
I'm Lisa Oz and I am Chill Herzeg and I
think this is our first guest who I can generally
(00:46):
call an icon that we have on our podcast. Super honored.
We have the iconic Marlo Thomas. Marla, thank you so
much for being here. Thank you. I'm glad to be here.
Oh my gosh. We are both of us like, well,
you know, so, I'm not going to read your whole resume.
(01:10):
You are an Emmy Award winning, Golden Globe winning, Grammy
winning actress, producer, activist, author, humanitarian, philanthropist and winner of
the Presidential Medal of Freedom. What is the secret sast
to your success? Just hard work. I think it's following
your own path, you know, running your own race. My
(01:33):
dad once said to me years and years ago, when
I was kind of confused because I was his daughter,
Danny Thomas's daughter, and everybody was referring to me as
an eighteen year old actress, as you know, would I
be as good as Danny Thomas? Would I last as long?
Which was very intimidating, as I'm sure your kids would
feel about you, and a moment um, and I went
(01:54):
to my dad and said, you don't want to change
my name. I don't want to be a Thomas because
I can't take this comparison all the time. And he said,
you know, I raised you to be a thoroughbred, and
Thoroughbreds run their own races. You just put on your
blinders and you run, and you don't look at any
of the other horses. You just run your own race.
And that to me is sort of the mantra of
my life. I just run my race, so I can't
(02:16):
look to see what he or she is doing on
in the other tracks. What do I want to do,
And so whatever I've done has come organically from what
I believe. Uh, And I think that's who I am.
And I think that's something my father gave me. It
was a great gift he gave me. It's it's interesting
because you know, from the time that you start on
(02:38):
and really created that girl show that sort of changed
the landscape of television and changed the world for women,
it seems like from that point on you created the
opportunities you wished we all had. I mean, if they
weren't there, you just went ahead and created them. Yeah,
And it's easier when you're them out. Yeah, now it
(03:01):
is because when you're younger, there's yes, it is everywhere.
You know, whatever you want to do, people will do
it with you if you've been successful. As you get older,
it does get harder to for people to believe that
you can get the audience so that you can attract
enough people. So, um, it's always a challenge, you know,
you always have to. It's like all of your life
(03:24):
you're trying to find the race you want to run
and and the challenge is to get people out of
the way of your track so that you can run
it and that that is the challenge. And when you
ask before about well, what is it with the secret sauce?
I think the secret sauce is having a vision of
what you really want and to say to yourself, I'm
(03:44):
I'm not going to color between the lines to get
what I where I want to go. I'm going to
try to do it the way that I can understand it.
If you don't, you know what I mean. Yeah, you
have a very specific creative artistic expression, but you also
have been a pillar of of the feminist movement so
(04:09):
and have blended those so seamlessly and in a way
that I think no one else has before or since.
As the as the political always been for you, asn't
always been as important as the artistic expression, or is it?
Did it just sort of grow out of the position
that you were in? Well, I think you know, the
first political thing I ever did, I was sixteen years
(04:31):
old in Los Angeles, And so it's almost pathetic to
think of it because we're still fighting it. But I
was running around the neighborhood getting people to sign a
gun control petition when I was sixteen, which was a
long long time ago. We still don't have gun control.
Um so I always had an idea of how to
that that I could have a voice in making the
(04:51):
world better, because my dad used to say to us
when we were kids, if five people think he and
you think nay, then you say ay. So it was
in our dna almost speak up, you know, to have
a voice. So I don't think that politics and acting,
or marriage or anything you do in your life is separate.
(05:14):
It's all you. It's all coming from the same place.
I don't think I could do a part in a
player in a movie if I felt that it aggrandized
something that I didn't believe in, if it if it
opened a conversation about something I didn't believe in, I
could do that. But I couldn't do it if it
if it made that person or that idea heroic. But
(05:35):
like that girl was very much of a feminist program.
It's changed the way people saw women on television. And
was that intentional? Well, I didn't know that I was
a feminist. I didn't even know what heavenism was exactly.
Um No, it was how I felt, you know. I
always felt a little bit like an outsider growing up
(05:56):
because all the girls I knew wanted to be married
and have babies and right away, and I just didn't
want to. I just found that a completely resistible idea.
I mean, I know that you and Mama got married
so young, and you have this great marriage, and I
just I'm I'm always so impressed with my friends like you,
all that have been married since their twenties and put
(06:18):
it together and grew together. That's kind of unusual. Well,
you and fell have a pretty long marriage. We do.
We've been married thirty nine years, but we got married
in our forties. It's easier when you get married older,
you know who you are. The problem in in marriage,
I think, is that if you're an uninvolved, unevolved person
and you marry an unevolved person, it's going to be
kind of hard to have an evolved marriage. So most
(06:41):
people are not that evolved, especially guys not that evolved
in their twenties. Women are more mature. Ye, you're really
just sort of placing a bat. Yeah, you are placing
a back and and and so by the time we
met each other, we'd already been through our trial and errors,
you know, and so we were you know, we knew
who we were, and we knew what we could be.
(07:02):
I think you have to be, have to have worked
a bit on yourself, uh and and sort of worked
your side of the street before you can really match
up with another human being and say, okay, let's throw
a lot together and make a life of purpose and
make a life of sense and fairness and goodness and
you know all those nice I think people have trouble
(07:22):
doing that so low at a young age. I think
you know that comes with maturity a little bit, whether
you're married or single, right, living a life of purpose
and stuff. That's what I'm so amazed, like people like you,
amendment that you did it in your twenties and it's
still there. I've been with you two and I know that. Well,
you grow together, hopefully you either go together you grow apart. Right,
(07:44):
you got to figure it out and stay together. Right.
I want to get back to feminism for a second
because I'm just would be so fascinating to know what
your perspective is on what you see in the political
landscape now and whether when you look at the various
feminist movements there is no single feminist movement anymore. What
you think, what you what you think when you look, Well,
(08:06):
the most important thing about feminism and you're right, there's
no single movement. But it's not really about a movement.
It's it's about the way we live and the way
we perceive men and women sharing the world equally, which
is what we are attempting to do. Women are getting
their voices, they're speaking up where they feel that they
were abused or dismissed or whatever. They're complaints are very
(08:30):
worthy complaints that they are they're speaking out, and that
we're seeing women, you know, more women in Congress than ever.
You know, when I was a teenager, my father took
me to Washington and he took me, was very proud
to take me to see the Senate floor. We stood
up in the gallery to look down and I was
just a kid in my maybe fourteen fifteen years old,
(08:53):
and I said to my father, there aren't any women.
I mean, I wasn't a feminist. I didn't know about feminism.
I obviously was born a feminist. But I noticed that
everybody was a white man in a suit and tie.
There weren't any I mean, I didn't even notice the
racial thing at that point. I just noticed that they
were all men. And my dad looked at me like wow,
you know, he hadn't even considered that. Well, that isn't
(09:15):
true today. So you know, there are people who like
to say that, well, the women's movement or the feminist
movement has has stepped back, not at all. I mean,
there are more women running of a fortunate there are
more women running their own companies, start startup companies. Um,
women in you know, above middle management, which when I
(09:36):
was growing up, women were stuck in middle management, if
at all. So UM. I think the great thing that's
happened for this, for our country and possibly the world,
is that women are seen as viable for any kind
of job and any kind of position, including the president
of the United States, which don't forget, we had the
(09:57):
first you know, women women as a nomin need for
a major party in Hillary Clinton. So and soon we
will have a female president for sure. But that isn't
the ultimate. You know what's the ultimate is that women
are everywhere. That's the most important thing. When we come back,
we're gonna speak more with this amazing woman, Ryler Thomas.
(10:26):
I'm want to talk a little bit about reinvention. And
you've had so many different careers, all sort of in
the same vein, but you've written books, and you've posted
podcasts and um and been an actress and really run
Saint Jews UM. So I wanted to touch a little
(10:47):
bit on these other projects that you do. One is
Getting Over, which is a book and a web series.
Can you is that just something that you're very passionate about?
How did that come about? Well? You know, when I
travel and and speak for St. Jude Children's Research Hospital
around the country. Uh, In the question and answer period,
a lot of people, you know, ask me questions about St.
(11:08):
Jude and about illness and so forth. But a lot
of women stand up and talk about themselves and ask
me questions. Why they think I have the answer. I
don't know, because I don't have the answer to people's
questions about their own lives. But the questions themselves are
revealing to me too, because I learned from the question,
as you know. And so a woman will get up
(11:29):
and say, you know, I, I, uh, my whole life
I gave to my family, and now I'm forty two
years old and I'm kind of out of a job.
My kids have grown up and they don't really need
me anymore, and I'm not sure how to start again.
And so someone would another one would raise your hand
and say, well, you know what, you could go. You
could become an intern somewhere and learn a new field.
(11:49):
People will be happy to hire you if you don't
cost anything, you know. And so I was learning a
lot from what women were talking about, and I thought,
you know, it's really true what Yogi Berra said. It
ain't overlet's over, and your life should not be over
in your forties or your fifties, or your sixties or
seventies or at any time. But for many women in
(12:10):
Hollywood it was yes, yeah, because because they feel that
they're no longer marketable. Even women have told me that
even to be a hostess in a restaurant or a
receptionist in a beauty parlor, they want to put somebody
in their twenties at the front desk. Very real and
almost every feel right, and so much more so for women.
(12:32):
And that and that is very intimidating for to go
out on a job interview and know, Okay, at forty
years old, I'm too old to be even a receptionist,
which doesn't take a tremendous amount of skill. I mean,
you do have to be able to be organized and multitask.
But many women do that. If anybody who's run a
house multitask, so we've got the skills for it. So
(12:53):
what do you How do you get back into the
job market. And if you've been out of the job
market for fifteen years, you've lost your place in line,
so you have to really start over. And uh So
this book is a story of about sixty women who
started over after forty one of the and some of
them are sixty, but they started all kinds of different
(13:14):
companies um and and and and industries. Really, one of
the stories I loved was a woman who was like
thirty eight years old and um, she's working for this doctor.
She was a college grad and all, and she um
uh was kind of like like a par of legal
to a doctor or whatever that's called. You know that
better than me a p a or something. She said
(13:38):
to this doctor one day, you know, I really and
up being with you makes me realize how much I
really wanted to be a doctor. But you know, I
just didn't go for it, you know, when I was
the right age. And he said, well, you could go
for it now and and she said, well, I'm gonna
be forty, you know. And two years she said, well,
you're gonna be forty anyway, so you might as well
(13:59):
go after what you want. And so she did. She
went to med school and she became a doctor. She's
in her fifties and she's a doctor. She got a dream.
She decided that what why should age stop me? Because
you could be a doctor to your seventy five you
know what. So this doctor said this one thing to her,
You're gonna be forty anyway, so do it. And at
(14:20):
the time the time's going to pass, exactly what you
really want to exactly imagine spending the rest of your
life from the time you're thirty eight wishing you've done something.
It can never be too late, you know. You need
to go go after your dream. And so that's what
the book is about. And what I the mail that
I got on this book was was really amazing. I
(14:40):
think more mail than I've ever received on any book
from women saying thank you for these stories. I really,
you know, when you when you read sixties stories in
a row of women who had given up and decided
now to move forward, it's pretty inspiring. I mean it
inspired me, and I'm not a person who's sitting still.
What did you draw from it because it feels like
you are a master of reinvention and your creativity is
(15:04):
sort of unstoppable. But it's what was the Was there
a kernel that you drew from these stories that helped
you personally? Yes, the the idea that we sometimes listen
to the voice in our head that brings us down.
You know, there's so many voices in our heads. It's
a decision for all of us to turn the volume
(15:24):
up on the one that we really need, you know,
because you can hear the voice that says, oh, it's
too late, you can't do this now. And there's another
voice that says, well, you know, Lisa did it, or
so your mom did it or your mother didn't do it,
or whatever it is. You have all these little voices
and you have to really look around you, you know,
notice how other people are are making it work for them.
(15:46):
And that's what I think a book like that does.
There are other books that do it as well, but
this book was gear just for women to say it
ain't over, it's over, meaning that don't don't take anybody
else's uh idea of what of what you can do?
I have a saying that I have hanging near my desk,
and it's called never face the facts, because if you
(16:09):
face the facts, you only even got out of bed
in the morning. You know, why should you be the
one to have a podcast? Right? Why should you be
the one and not to have flies all over your
face and living and starving hunger? You know? Why is
it that you're here? And so I think the the
idea of never face the facts. It means don't face
(16:30):
the facts in your head, and don't face the facts
that everybody else tells you are the facts you you
mentioned sort of faces of life and your thirties, forties, fifties, sixties,
Your career has spanned. Can you can you go through
some of the decades and just tell us what you
associate with each decade of your life? Oh god, I
(16:51):
don't think so. It's just not I not a historian
of my own life. Maybe maybe that's your secret. It
is just so completely in the press. I think I
am in the present. In fact, I had a friend
one time telling me that he said, you're doomed to
live in the present. I don't think I know of
one one decade. I guess it was the seventies where
you did free to be you and me, and I
(17:12):
think you touched every woman that I know. Nobody's being
nice here. That was that was the soundtrack of my girlhood,
and it absolutely changed the narrative in my head about
my future and who I was and also who men were.
(17:34):
I mean, I distinctly remember, you know, one of the
themes on that record is that women can get out
and pursue whatever career they want, but also that men
can be nurturing, and particularly people daddies, and daddies can
be the nurturing, nurturing ones just as mommies can. And
(17:54):
I remember having a dinner with a friend of mine
and my mom, and she asked the two of us,
you know, so how are you going to what do
you think you're gonna do about work and having babies?
And I announced, confidently, while I'm going to have a
job and I'm going to have kids and that that
that's what I'm going to do. And she said, well,
how are you going to do that? How how are
(18:16):
you going to manage that? Who's going to take care
of those kids? And she was just speaking from her
heart and from her experience and her generation, and I said, well,
it won't be just me. I mean I'm going to
do this with my children's father, and and and she said,
expressed a lot of doubt about whether I was going
to get the record for her. Bought me the record.
(18:39):
By the way, it's very interesting, but that she knew.
She gave me a tool, but she didn't have that
tool herself. And I said, well, he's going to do
half of it. That's a great thing about each generation
they bring, you know, they bring a new I was
utterly convicted in this belief, and she was utterly convicted
in the opposite one. And as it so happens, well,
(19:02):
she said, well, how how will you find this time?
And I won't marry? Well, and I didn't and he does,
and that's just that's great, that's great. But yeah, when
I married Phil, we were living in two different cities.
I was working in l a And he was working
in Chicago. And an aunt of mine said, that's not
a marriage. And I remember thinking when she said that,
(19:24):
that's probably why I never wanted to be married. Was
that idea that you know that if you had to
work in two different cities. And obviously we got together
every weekend and we figured out everything that we could
during the week and all. But if that's what you
had to do in your life to have your work
and your love and your marriage, marriage wasn't roomy enough
for that in other definitions, our marriage was roomy enough
(19:47):
for that. And then obviously we you know, we put
it all together and moved to New York and we're
able to live together. But to my aunt, that wasn't
a marriage. That's not a marriage, she said. And that's
what that's the problem. We live by other definitions that
are much more were want of a bed, were constipated
than than Uh, then is the truth. When we come back,
(20:10):
I want to talk a little bit more about your marriage. Okay,
before the break, we just barely touched on yours and
fells marriage thirty nine years, she said, Um, and it
(20:31):
is a beautiful relationship and it's such a it's such
a combining of equals. It's really an inspiration. Can you
share with our listeners the story of how you guys
met and got together in your because you told us
such a great story. Well, we're early year, I know. Well,
I went on his show, The Donna Hue Show was
not in La or New York. When I went on
(20:52):
the Donna Who Show in Chicago for a movie that
I had been, that I had done. And so when
I you know, I didn't know what he looked like
or who he was or anything. When he walked into
the green room, Honestly, god, my heart just went pitter
patter his big blue eyes and the white hair, and
he was just so male in his whole being. And
he said to me, I want to talk about your mother,
(21:13):
would that be okay? And I thought, my mother. Nobody
ever asked about my mother. Johnny Carson never wanted to
know about my mother, right, Everybody wanted to know about
my famous father. So I thought, I said sure, Yeah,
of course, I thought wow. Um. And he had a
female audience, and he thought the female audience would be
interested in who's the mother of this woman? Right anyway? Um.
(21:33):
So we got on this show and we just started
flirting with each other and I was talking about feminism
and he said to me, you know, how did a
girl like you get away and not get married? I
was like, you know, in my mid thirties, and I said, oh,
I'm never getting married. I don't believe in marriage and uh.
And then I was saying very feminist things like, oh, phil, oh,
I feel like you're so funny. Fail I made it
(21:54):
to a total fool of myself. My hormones were raging
as well his and uh and then you know, afterwards
we asked me to dinner and and that was it.
We just became us love at first talk show everybode.
I think also because a talk show in those days,
his show wasn't one hour, one hour, one guest, so
(22:16):
in one hour, unlike with Mement you know he does
my God a thousand topics in one hour, and the
Today Show, all those shows they do a lot of
topics one but you have one guest for one hour.
You get to know that guest pretty well. You get
to a lot of questions, a lot of answers, a
lot of play back play, incredible treasure that you have
on film, the spark right like the first day and
(22:40):
the first day I know there. His staff gave it
to us as a wedding gift. The show was fun,
it's fun to have but but but that was it.
I mean that one hour of just focusing on each
other is different than most talk shows were. Like I
made the joke about Johnny Carson when on the Johnny
(23:00):
Castion Show. It was like, what six minutes. There wasn't
enough time for a spark that it wouldn't have happened anyway,
two hours. He wasn't my type. But from that one meeting,
thirty thirty nine years later, you guys are still together.
And that is almost unheard of in Hollywood. And two,
forget one superstar and another person, they don't loast two superstars.
(23:25):
There's two big egos. How we've seen the most spectacular
breakups when it involves too enormous yea, how do you
do that dance? Well? Our first time of the star? No,
I'm the star. Well, no, it wasn't about being I'm
the star on the star. What it is about is
the the the built in or the built in personality.
First of all, your type A personality, and then what
(23:48):
you've sort of gathered along the way about the way
that you're the boss of things. Right. I ran my
own show, He ran his own show. Um. You know,
we were big individuals in our own sphere, in our
own life. Um. And so when these two type A
personalities came together, each of us expected the other one
to bend to the other one because that's what we
(24:10):
were used to. And so the first year of our
marriage was difficult. We did a lot of fighting, a
lot of power struggle, I think, and then after a
while it just became apparent that we said to each
other one day, you know, we're going to come to
the end of this argument anyway, so we might as
well just stop now. You know, we're not going to
still use that You still use that that fight trick. Well,
(24:33):
we don't really fight that much anymore. I mean, after
thirty nine years, you kind of like lay down the
guns and the stars and everything. Uh yeah, we don't
mean when we have a fight with a fight, you know,
like everybody, we fight over whatever it is. You know,
you're taking too much luggage, or you took too long
to do this, or you didn't come when you said
you would come, or I don't like his wife. Do
we have to go to there? You know, those kinds
(24:54):
of argument. You're not arguing with anything big, the big stuff.
You've worked it a long time ago. We still fight
over how much luggage I take. It's characterologically impossible for
me not to take a lot of shoes when I try.
I need them all. You never know, are you're gonna
go um, But we've gotten through all of that so
now when we fight, we fight, and it doesn't go
on very long. So you as a couple inspire many
(25:18):
people who inspires you. Couples out there, couples well, I
thought Paul Newman and John Woodward had a terrific marriage,
and lisaid Moment have a terrific marriage. So there are
there are many couples who work together, and and uh
that that to me is really exciting. One At Saint Jude,
(25:40):
we have scientific couples who work together as as as science,
you know, science partners. I find that really interesting because
that's a field in which people are um sort of
running on on an instinct and if and if somebody
takes you off the wrong road, you know, it could
divert you know, your path. So I find scientists who
(26:01):
work together pretty pretty exciting. And who's also very exciting
been married seventy three years is Jimmy Carter and Rosalind Carter.
Seventy two years. They've been married and they do so
much together. They run that Carter Center together, they do
the habitat together. I mean, they're just an amazing couple.
They're in their nineties and we had lunch with them
(26:24):
a couple of months ago, and they still a bicker
in in the in the nicest way. Like he said, no, no,
that's not the way it was. Well, she said, well
you don't remember those you know, just exactly understand a
live marriage. They read the Bible together in Spanish because
they learned how to speak Spanish, and they're just they're
darling and they're they're alive and real. That's the thing.
(26:45):
You know, a lot of marriages sort of peter out.
They don't even it's not like they fight it out,
they just sort of peter out. And when you see
a couple like that that's been married over seventy years
and they're in their nineties and they're still alive, that's
the goal. I don't think the goal is the length
of time. It's great that I've been married thirty nine years.
(27:08):
How many years have you married? At least thirty four years?
Thirty four so thirty four years this amazing amount of
time to be married. But that's not the exciting part.
The exciting part is how alive is your marriage. Of course,
you should be arguing about something. You're two different people.
You're gonna be arguing um, and you're gonna be arguing
too because you're showing the other person something new. You know,
(27:30):
none of us wants to be told that the way
we did it before, is it the best way? I
knew her marriage was over when she just didn't care
so much anymore, right, exactly the things, the things they
had fought about teeny tiny yes with another woman, which
would have I mean I would have had to be
scraped off the sailing and and yes, and she was
(27:53):
totally none and well that's it's dead. Yeah, and it
was dead. Well, the scariest part seeing other women still
indicated a good sign. But I mean, it's it's like
a it's like a plant. You have to water it,
you know. You can't not water your marriage and give
it nutrition. It's it's if somebody was telling me that
(28:14):
there are three things three three people in a marriage,
or three live things in a marriage, the husband, the wife,
and the marriage. So the husband and the wife have
to sacrifice certain things for the marriage because the marriage
is a living thing, and you can't just be selfish
and say I want this or I need this it
(28:36):
Can the marriage stand this? Can the marriage tolerate this
other thing? You know? And that that's a big that
if you don't understand that, then you can't have a marriage.
At last, before we go, I actually want to give
you an opportunity to tell us about saying to you,
because that's another thing that you have, another relationship and
(28:57):
other entities that speaking like a mena, you have to
learn to vote a lot too, And I just want
you to be able to brag a little bit because
it is I mean, your dad did an incredible job,
but what you and Tony your brother have done is
as remarkable. It is a multi billion dollar hurting now
and it's anonymous millions of lives. So can you just
(29:18):
tell us a little bit about Saint You all right? Well,
I have to try to condense it because I could.
We could do four shows on St. Jude Childre's Research Hospital.
But the great thing about St. Jude is that it's
what distinguishes Saint Jude is that it's a research center
in a treatment center under one roof. And there are
a lot of wonderful hospitals in this country children's hospitals,
and we collaborate with most of them, but they're just
(29:39):
working on what they know and we're working on what
nobody knows because we're a research center. That's what's exciting
about it. And so I'm going there actually on Wednesday
for three days for board meetings and um and we'll
we'll always get a scientific briefing as to what's new
that's been, that's happening, and that's very exciting to like.
It was just an eunce that we figured out how
(30:01):
to to cure that bubble boy disease. It was we
did a big you know what, but the little children
had to live in a bubble. We're now curing that.
That was something that had not never been cured before.
So we're always working on diseases, cancer and other diseases,
and so a lot of that. It takes an awful
lot of money to UH to pay for the science
(30:24):
and the research and then the clinic and the treatment,
and then my father made a promise that nobody would
pay for anything, so no family pays for travel or treatment,
or travel or housing or food. So that that means
that it cost us about three million dollars a day
to run St. Jude. So that's a huge responsibility that
(30:46):
my brother Tony and my sister Terry and I have
taken on and we have to raise over a billion
dollars a year. Well listeners, if you're out there, you
can go to st j dot org you because it
is a phenomenal call. Thank you Marlo, Thank you for
being here today. It has been such a pleasure talking
to you. Thank you. Would love meet worth of you. Um.
(31:06):
If you want to connect more with Marlow, go to
our Facebook page at Marlow Thomas. Yes. Thank you for
me as well, and thank you to our producer Alicia Haywood.
Thanks to everyone for listening. This was an amazing episode.
Thank you.
There's so many voices in our heads. It's a decision
for all of us to turn the volume up on
the one that we really need, you know, because you
can hear the voice that says, oh, it's too late,
you can't do this now. And there's another voice that says, well,
you know, Lisa did it or something, your mom did
it or your mother didn't do it, or whatever it is.
You have all these little voices and you have to
really look around you, you know, notice how other people
(00:23):
are are making it work with them. Hello, and welcome
to our podcast. This is the place where we talk
about all good things on this piled journey of life.
I'm Lisa Oz and I am Chill Herzeg and I
think this is our first guest who I can generally
(00:46):
call an icon that we have on our podcast. Super honored.
We have the iconic Marlo Thomas. Marla, thank you so
much for being here. Thank you. I'm glad to be here.
Oh my gosh. We are both of us like, well,
you know, so, I'm not going to read your whole resume.
(01:10):
You are an Emmy Award winning, Golden Globe winning, Grammy
winning actress, producer, activist, author, humanitarian, philanthropist and winner of
the Presidential Medal of Freedom. What is the secret sast
to your success? Just hard work. I think it's following
your own path, you know, running your own race. My
(01:33):
dad once said to me years and years ago, when
I was kind of confused because I was his daughter,
Danny Thomas's daughter, and everybody was referring to me as
an eighteen year old actress, as you know, would I
be as good as Danny Thomas? Would I last as long?
Which was very intimidating, as I'm sure your kids would
feel about you, and a moment um, and I went
(01:54):
to my dad and said, you don't want to change
my name. I don't want to be a Thomas because
I can't take this comparison all the time. And he said,
you know, I raised you to be a thoroughbred, and
Thoroughbreds run their own races. You just put on your
blinders and you run, and you don't look at any
of the other horses. You just run your own race.
And that to me is sort of the mantra of
my life. I just run my race, so I can't
(02:16):
look to see what he or she is doing on
in the other tracks. What do I want to do,
And so whatever I've done has come organically from what
I believe. Uh, And I think that's who I am.
And I think that's something my father gave me. It
was a great gift he gave me. It's it's interesting
because you know, from the time that you start on
(02:38):
and really created that girl show that sort of changed
the landscape of television and changed the world for women,
it seems like from that point on you created the
opportunities you wished we all had. I mean, if they
weren't there, you just went ahead and created them. Yeah,
And it's easier when you're them out. Yeah, now it
(03:01):
is because when you're younger, there's yes, it is everywhere.
You know, whatever you want to do, people will do
it with you if you've been successful. As you get older,
it does get harder to for people to believe that
you can get the audience so that you can attract
enough people. So, um, it's always a challenge, you know,
you always have to. It's like all of your life
(03:24):
you're trying to find the race you want to run
and and the challenge is to get people out of
the way of your track so that you can run
it and that that is the challenge. And when you
ask before about well, what is it with the secret sauce?
I think the secret sauce is having a vision of
what you really want and to say to yourself, I'm
(03:44):
I'm not going to color between the lines to get
what I where I want to go. I'm going to
try to do it the way that I can understand it.
If you don't, you know what I mean. Yeah, you
have a very specific creative artistic expression, but you also
have been a pillar of of the feminist movement so
(04:09):
and have blended those so seamlessly and in a way
that I think no one else has before or since.
As the as the political always been for you, asn't
always been as important as the artistic expression, or is it?
Did it just sort of grow out of the position
that you were in? Well, I think you know, the
first political thing I ever did, I was sixteen years
(04:31):
old in Los Angeles, And so it's almost pathetic to
think of it because we're still fighting it. But I
was running around the neighborhood getting people to sign a
gun control petition when I was sixteen, which was a
long long time ago. We still don't have gun control.
Um so I always had an idea of how to
that that I could have a voice in making the
(04:51):
world better, because my dad used to say to us
when we were kids, if five people think he and
you think nay, then you say ay. So it was
in our dna almost speak up, you know, to have
a voice. So I don't think that politics and acting,
or marriage or anything you do in your life is separate.
(05:14):
It's all you. It's all coming from the same place.
I don't think I could do a part in a
player in a movie if I felt that it aggrandized
something that I didn't believe in, if it if it
opened a conversation about something I didn't believe in, I
could do that. But I couldn't do it if it
if it made that person or that idea heroic. But
(05:35):
like that girl was very much of a feminist program.
It's changed the way people saw women on television. And
was that intentional? Well, I didn't know that I was
a feminist. I didn't even know what heavenism was exactly.
Um No, it was how I felt, you know. I
always felt a little bit like an outsider growing up
(05:56):
because all the girls I knew wanted to be married
and have babies and right away, and I just didn't
want to. I just found that a completely resistible idea.
I mean, I know that you and Mama got married
so young, and you have this great marriage, and I
just I'm I'm always so impressed with my friends like you,
all that have been married since their twenties and put
(06:18):
it together and grew together. That's kind of unusual. Well,
you and fell have a pretty long marriage. We do.
We've been married thirty nine years, but we got married
in our forties. It's easier when you get married older,
you know who you are. The problem in in marriage,
I think, is that if you're an uninvolved, unevolved person
and you marry an unevolved person, it's going to be
kind of hard to have an evolved marriage. So most
(06:41):
people are not that evolved, especially guys not that evolved
in their twenties. Women are more mature. Ye, you're really
just sort of placing a bat. Yeah, you are placing
a back and and and so by the time we
met each other, we'd already been through our trial and errors,
you know, and so we were you know, we knew
who we were, and we knew what we could be.
(07:02):
I think you have to be, have to have worked
a bit on yourself, uh and and sort of worked
your side of the street before you can really match
up with another human being and say, okay, let's throw
a lot together and make a life of purpose and
make a life of sense and fairness and goodness and
you know all those nice I think people have trouble
(07:22):
doing that so low at a young age. I think
you know that comes with maturity a little bit, whether
you're married or single, right, living a life of purpose
and stuff. That's what I'm so amazed, like people like you,
amendment that you did it in your twenties and it's
still there. I've been with you two and I know that. Well,
you grow together, hopefully you either go together you grow apart. Right,
(07:44):
you got to figure it out and stay together. Right.
I want to get back to feminism for a second
because I'm just would be so fascinating to know what
your perspective is on what you see in the political
landscape now and whether when you look at the various
feminist movements there is no single feminist movement anymore. What
you think, what you what you think when you look, Well,
(08:06):
the most important thing about feminism and you're right, there's
no single movement. But it's not really about a movement.
It's it's about the way we live and the way
we perceive men and women sharing the world equally, which
is what we are attempting to do. Women are getting
their voices, they're speaking up where they feel that they
were abused or dismissed or whatever. They're complaints are very
(08:30):
worthy complaints that they are they're speaking out, and that
we're seeing women, you know, more women in Congress than ever.
You know, when I was a teenager, my father took
me to Washington and he took me, was very proud
to take me to see the Senate floor. We stood
up in the gallery to look down and I was
just a kid in my maybe fourteen fifteen years old,
(08:53):
and I said to my father, there aren't any women.
I mean, I wasn't a feminist. I didn't know about feminism.
I obviously was born a feminist. But I noticed that
everybody was a white man in a suit and tie.
There weren't any I mean, I didn't even notice the
racial thing at that point. I just noticed that they
were all men. And my dad looked at me like wow,
you know, he hadn't even considered that. Well, that isn't
(09:15):
true today. So you know, there are people who like
to say that, well, the women's movement or the feminist
movement has has stepped back, not at all. I mean,
there are more women running of a fortunate there are
more women running their own companies, start startup companies. Um,
women in you know, above middle management, which when I
(09:36):
was growing up, women were stuck in middle management, if
at all. So UM. I think the great thing that's
happened for this, for our country and possibly the world,
is that women are seen as viable for any kind
of job and any kind of position, including the president
of the United States, which don't forget, we had the
(09:57):
first you know, women women as a nomin need for
a major party in Hillary Clinton. So and soon we
will have a female president for sure. But that isn't
the ultimate. You know what's the ultimate is that women
are everywhere. That's the most important thing. When we come back,
we're gonna speak more with this amazing woman, Ryler Thomas.
(10:26):
I'm want to talk a little bit about reinvention. And
you've had so many different careers, all sort of in
the same vein, but you've written books, and you've posted
podcasts and um and been an actress and really run
Saint Jews UM. So I wanted to touch a little
(10:47):
bit on these other projects that you do. One is
Getting Over, which is a book and a web series.
Can you is that just something that you're very passionate about?
How did that come about? Well? You know, when I
travel and and speak for St. Jude Children's Research Hospital
around the country. Uh, In the question and answer period,
a lot of people, you know, ask me questions about St.
(11:08):
Jude and about illness and so forth. But a lot
of women stand up and talk about themselves and ask
me questions. Why they think I have the answer. I
don't know, because I don't have the answer to people's
questions about their own lives. But the questions themselves are
revealing to me too, because I learned from the question,
as you know. And so a woman will get up
(11:29):
and say, you know, I, I, uh, my whole life
I gave to my family, and now I'm forty two
years old and I'm kind of out of a job.
My kids have grown up and they don't really need
me anymore, and I'm not sure how to start again.
And so someone would another one would raise your hand
and say, well, you know what, you could go. You
could become an intern somewhere and learn a new field.
(11:49):
People will be happy to hire you if you don't
cost anything, you know. And so I was learning a
lot from what women were talking about, and I thought,
you know, it's really true what Yogi Berra said. It
ain't overlet's over, and your life should not be over
in your forties or your fifties, or your sixties or
seventies or at any time. But for many women in
(12:10):
Hollywood it was yes, yeah, because because they feel that
they're no longer marketable. Even women have told me that
even to be a hostess in a restaurant or a
receptionist in a beauty parlor, they want to put somebody
in their twenties at the front desk. Very real and
almost every feel right, and so much more so for women.
(12:32):
And that and that is very intimidating for to go
out on a job interview and know, Okay, at forty
years old, I'm too old to be even a receptionist,
which doesn't take a tremendous amount of skill. I mean,
you do have to be able to be organized and multitask.
But many women do that. If anybody who's run a
house multitask, so we've got the skills for it. So
(12:53):
what do you How do you get back into the
job market. And if you've been out of the job
market for fifteen years, you've lost your place in line,
so you have to really start over. And uh So
this book is a story of about sixty women who
started over after forty one of the and some of
them are sixty, but they started all kinds of different
(13:14):
companies um and and and and industries. Really, one of
the stories I loved was a woman who was like
thirty eight years old and um, she's working for this doctor.
She was a college grad and all, and she um
uh was kind of like like a par of legal
to a doctor or whatever that's called. You know that
better than me a p a or something. She said
(13:38):
to this doctor one day, you know, I really and
up being with you makes me realize how much I
really wanted to be a doctor. But you know, I
just didn't go for it, you know, when I was
the right age. And he said, well, you could go
for it now and and she said, well, I'm gonna
be forty, you know. And two years she said, well,
you're gonna be forty anyway, so you might as well
(13:59):
go after what you want. And so she did. She
went to med school and she became a doctor. She's
in her fifties and she's a doctor. She got a dream.
She decided that what why should age stop me? Because
you could be a doctor to your seventy five you
know what. So this doctor said this one thing to her,
You're gonna be forty anyway, so do it. And at
(14:20):
the time the time's going to pass, exactly what you
really want to exactly imagine spending the rest of your
life from the time you're thirty eight wishing you've done something.
It can never be too late, you know. You need
to go go after your dream. And so that's what
the book is about. And what I the mail that
I got on this book was was really amazing. I
(14:40):
think more mail than I've ever received on any book
from women saying thank you for these stories. I really,
you know, when you when you read sixties stories in
a row of women who had given up and decided
now to move forward, it's pretty inspiring. I mean it
inspired me, and I'm not a person who's sitting still.
What did you draw from it because it feels like
you are a master of reinvention and your creativity is
(15:04):
sort of unstoppable. But it's what was the Was there
a kernel that you drew from these stories that helped
you personally? Yes, the the idea that we sometimes listen
to the voice in our head that brings us down.
You know, there's so many voices in our heads. It's
a decision for all of us to turn the volume
(15:24):
up on the one that we really need, you know,
because you can hear the voice that says, oh, it's
too late, you can't do this now. And there's another
voice that says, well, you know, Lisa did it, or
so your mom did it or your mother didn't do it,
or whatever it is. You have all these little voices
and you have to really look around you, you know,
notice how other people are are making it work for them.
(15:46):
And that's what I think a book like that does.
There are other books that do it as well, but
this book was gear just for women to say it
ain't over, it's over, meaning that don't don't take anybody
else's uh idea of what of what you can do?
I have a saying that I have hanging near my desk,
and it's called never face the facts, because if you
(16:09):
face the facts, you only even got out of bed
in the morning. You know, why should you be the
one to have a podcast? Right? Why should you be
the one and not to have flies all over your
face and living and starving hunger? You know? Why is
it that you're here? And so I think the the
idea of never face the facts. It means don't face
(16:30):
the facts in your head, and don't face the facts
that everybody else tells you are the facts you you
mentioned sort of faces of life and your thirties, forties, fifties, sixties,
Your career has spanned. Can you can you go through
some of the decades and just tell us what you
associate with each decade of your life? Oh god, I
(16:51):
don't think so. It's just not I not a historian
of my own life. Maybe maybe that's your secret. It
is just so completely in the press. I think I
am in the present. In fact, I had a friend
one time telling me that he said, you're doomed to
live in the present. I don't think I know of
one one decade. I guess it was the seventies where
you did free to be you and me, and I
(17:12):
think you touched every woman that I know. Nobody's being
nice here. That was that was the soundtrack of my girlhood,
and it absolutely changed the narrative in my head about
my future and who I was and also who men were.
(17:34):
I mean, I distinctly remember, you know, one of the
themes on that record is that women can get out
and pursue whatever career they want, but also that men
can be nurturing, and particularly people daddies, and daddies can
be the nurturing, nurturing ones just as mommies can. And
(17:54):
I remember having a dinner with a friend of mine
and my mom, and she asked the two of us,
you know, so how are you going to what do
you think you're gonna do about work and having babies?
And I announced, confidently, while I'm going to have a
job and I'm going to have kids and that that
that's what I'm going to do. And she said, well,
how are you going to do that? How how are
(18:16):
you going to manage that? Who's going to take care
of those kids? And she was just speaking from her
heart and from her experience and her generation, and I said, well,
it won't be just me. I mean I'm going to
do this with my children's father, and and and she said,
expressed a lot of doubt about whether I was going
to get the record for her. Bought me the record.
(18:39):
By the way, it's very interesting, but that she knew.
She gave me a tool, but she didn't have that
tool herself. And I said, well, he's going to do
half of it. That's a great thing about each generation
they bring, you know, they bring a new I was
utterly convicted in this belief, and she was utterly convicted
in the opposite one. And as it so happens, well,
(19:02):
she said, well, how how will you find this time?
And I won't marry? Well, and I didn't and he does,
and that's just that's great, that's great. But yeah, when
I married Phil, we were living in two different cities.
I was working in l a And he was working
in Chicago. And an aunt of mine said, that's not
a marriage. And I remember thinking when she said that,
(19:24):
that's probably why I never wanted to be married. Was
that idea that you know that if you had to
work in two different cities. And obviously we got together
every weekend and we figured out everything that we could
during the week and all. But if that's what you
had to do in your life to have your work
and your love and your marriage, marriage wasn't roomy enough
for that in other definitions, our marriage was roomy enough
(19:47):
for that. And then obviously we you know, we put
it all together and moved to New York and we're
able to live together. But to my aunt, that wasn't
a marriage. That's not a marriage, she said. And that's
what that's the problem. We live by other definitions that
are much more were want of a bed, were constipated
than than Uh, then is the truth. When we come back,
(20:10):
I want to talk a little bit more about your marriage. Okay,
before the break, we just barely touched on yours and
fells marriage thirty nine years, she said, Um, and it
(20:31):
is a beautiful relationship and it's such a it's such
a combining of equals. It's really an inspiration. Can you
share with our listeners the story of how you guys
met and got together in your because you told us
such a great story. Well, we're early year, I know. Well,
I went on his show, The Donna Hue Show was
not in La or New York. When I went on
(20:52):
the Donna Who Show in Chicago for a movie that
I had been, that I had done. And so when
I you know, I didn't know what he looked like
or who he was or anything. When he walked into
the green room, Honestly, god, my heart just went pitter
patter his big blue eyes and the white hair, and
he was just so male in his whole being. And
he said to me, I want to talk about your mother,
(21:13):
would that be okay? And I thought, my mother. Nobody
ever asked about my mother. Johnny Carson never wanted to
know about my mother, right, Everybody wanted to know about
my famous father. So I thought, I said sure, Yeah,
of course, I thought wow. Um. And he had a
female audience, and he thought the female audience would be
interested in who's the mother of this woman? Right anyway? Um.
(21:33):
So we got on this show and we just started
flirting with each other and I was talking about feminism
and he said to me, you know, how did a
girl like you get away and not get married? I
was like, you know, in my mid thirties, and I said, oh,
I'm never getting married. I don't believe in marriage and uh.
And then I was saying very feminist things like, oh, phil, oh,
I feel like you're so funny. Fail I made it
(21:54):
to a total fool of myself. My hormones were raging
as well his and uh and then you know, afterwards
we asked me to dinner and and that was it.
We just became us love at first talk show everybode.
I think also because a talk show in those days,
his show wasn't one hour, one hour, one guest, so
(22:16):
in one hour, unlike with Mement you know he does
my God a thousand topics in one hour, and the
Today Show, all those shows they do a lot of
topics one but you have one guest for one hour.
You get to know that guest pretty well. You get
to a lot of questions, a lot of answers, a
lot of play back play, incredible treasure that you have
on film, the spark right like the first day and
(22:40):
the first day I know there. His staff gave it
to us as a wedding gift. The show was fun,
it's fun to have but but but that was it.
I mean that one hour of just focusing on each
other is different than most talk shows were. Like I
made the joke about Johnny Carson when on the Johnny
(23:00):
Castion Show. It was like, what six minutes. There wasn't
enough time for a spark that it wouldn't have happened anyway,
two hours. He wasn't my type. But from that one meeting,
thirty thirty nine years later, you guys are still together.
And that is almost unheard of in Hollywood. And two,
forget one superstar and another person, they don't loast two superstars.
(23:25):
There's two big egos. How we've seen the most spectacular
breakups when it involves too enormous yea, how do you
do that dance? Well? Our first time of the star? No,
I'm the star. Well, no, it wasn't about being I'm
the star on the star. What it is about is
the the the built in or the built in personality.
First of all, your type A personality, and then what
(23:48):
you've sort of gathered along the way about the way
that you're the boss of things. Right. I ran my
own show, He ran his own show. Um. You know,
we were big individuals in our own sphere, in our
own life. Um. And so when these two type A
personalities came together, each of us expected the other one
to bend to the other one because that's what we
(24:10):
were used to. And so the first year of our
marriage was difficult. We did a lot of fighting, a
lot of power struggle, I think, and then after a
while it just became apparent that we said to each
other one day, you know, we're going to come to
the end of this argument anyway, so we might as
well just stop now. You know, we're not going to
still use that You still use that that fight trick. Well,
(24:33):
we don't really fight that much anymore. I mean, after
thirty nine years, you kind of like lay down the
guns and the stars and everything. Uh yeah, we don't
mean when we have a fight with a fight, you know,
like everybody, we fight over whatever it is. You know,
you're taking too much luggage, or you took too long
to do this, or you didn't come when you said
you would come, or I don't like his wife. Do
we have to go to there? You know, those kinds
(24:54):
of argument. You're not arguing with anything big, the big stuff.
You've worked it a long time ago. We still fight
over how much luggage I take. It's characterologically impossible for
me not to take a lot of shoes when I try.
I need them all. You never know, are you're gonna
go um, But we've gotten through all of that so
now when we fight, we fight, and it doesn't go
on very long. So you as a couple inspire many
(25:18):
people who inspires you. Couples out there, couples well, I
thought Paul Newman and John Woodward had a terrific marriage,
and lisaid Moment have a terrific marriage. So there are
there are many couples who work together, and and uh
that that to me is really exciting. One At Saint Jude,
(25:40):
we have scientific couples who work together as as as science,
you know, science partners. I find that really interesting because
that's a field in which people are um sort of
running on on an instinct and if and if somebody
takes you off the wrong road, you know, it could
divert you know, your path. So I find scientists who
(26:01):
work together pretty pretty exciting. And who's also very exciting
been married seventy three years is Jimmy Carter and Rosalind Carter.
Seventy two years. They've been married and they do so
much together. They run that Carter Center together, they do
the habitat together. I mean, they're just an amazing couple.
They're in their nineties and we had lunch with them
(26:24):
a couple of months ago, and they still a bicker
in in the in the nicest way. Like he said, no, no,
that's not the way it was. Well, she said, well
you don't remember those you know, just exactly understand a
live marriage. They read the Bible together in Spanish because
they learned how to speak Spanish, and they're just they're
darling and they're they're alive and real. That's the thing.
(26:45):
You know, a lot of marriages sort of peter out.
They don't even it's not like they fight it out,
they just sort of peter out. And when you see
a couple like that that's been married over seventy years
and they're in their nineties and they're still alive, that's
the goal. I don't think the goal is the length
of time. It's great that I've been married thirty nine years.
(27:08):
How many years have you married? At least thirty four years?
Thirty four so thirty four years this amazing amount of
time to be married. But that's not the exciting part.
The exciting part is how alive is your marriage. Of course,
you should be arguing about something. You're two different people.
You're gonna be arguing um, and you're gonna be arguing
too because you're showing the other person something new. You know,
(27:30):
none of us wants to be told that the way
we did it before, is it the best way? I
knew her marriage was over when she just didn't care
so much anymore, right, exactly the things, the things they
had fought about teeny tiny yes with another woman, which
would have I mean I would have had to be
scraped off the sailing and and yes, and she was
(27:53):
totally none and well that's it's dead. Yeah, and it
was dead. Well, the scariest part seeing other women still
indicated a good sign. But I mean, it's it's like
a it's like a plant. You have to water it,
you know. You can't not water your marriage and give
it nutrition. It's it's if somebody was telling me that
(28:14):
there are three things three three people in a marriage,
or three live things in a marriage, the husband, the wife,
and the marriage. So the husband and the wife have
to sacrifice certain things for the marriage because the marriage
is a living thing, and you can't just be selfish
and say I want this or I need this it
(28:36):
Can the marriage stand this? Can the marriage tolerate this
other thing? You know? And that that's a big that
if you don't understand that, then you can't have a marriage.
At last, before we go, I actually want to give
you an opportunity to tell us about saying to you,
because that's another thing that you have, another relationship and
(28:57):
other entities that speaking like a mena, you have to
learn to vote a lot too, And I just want
you to be able to brag a little bit because
it is I mean, your dad did an incredible job,
but what you and Tony your brother have done is
as remarkable. It is a multi billion dollar hurting now
and it's anonymous millions of lives. So can you just
(29:18):
tell us a little bit about Saint You all right? Well,
I have to try to condense it because I could.
We could do four shows on St. Jude Childre's Research Hospital.
But the great thing about St. Jude is that it's
what distinguishes Saint Jude is that it's a research center
in a treatment center under one roof. And there are
a lot of wonderful hospitals in this country children's hospitals,
and we collaborate with most of them, but they're just
(29:39):
working on what they know and we're working on what
nobody knows because we're a research center. That's what's exciting
about it. And so I'm going there actually on Wednesday
for three days for board meetings and um and we'll
we'll always get a scientific briefing as to what's new
that's been, that's happening, and that's very exciting to like.
It was just an eunce that we figured out how
(30:01):
to to cure that bubble boy disease. It was we
did a big you know what, but the little children
had to live in a bubble. We're now curing that.
That was something that had not never been cured before.
So we're always working on diseases, cancer and other diseases,
and so a lot of that. It takes an awful
lot of money to UH to pay for the science
(30:24):
and the research and then the clinic and the treatment,
and then my father made a promise that nobody would
pay for anything, so no family pays for travel or treatment,
or travel or housing or food. So that that means
that it cost us about three million dollars a day
to run St. Jude. So that's a huge responsibility that
(30:46):
my brother Tony and my sister Terry and I have
taken on and we have to raise over a billion
dollars a year. Well listeners, if you're out there, you
can go to st j dot org you because it
is a phenomenal call. Thank you Marlo, Thank you for
being here today. It has been such a pleasure talking
to you. Thank you. Would love meet worth of you. Um.
(31:06):
If you want to connect more with Marlow, go to
our Facebook page at Marlow Thomas. Yes. Thank you for
me as well, and thank you to our producer Alicia Haywood.
Thanks to everyone for listening. This was an amazing episode.
Thank you.
Road to Somewhere News
Hosts And Creators
Lisa Oz
Jill Herzig
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang
Ding dong! Join your culture consultants, Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang, on an unforgettable journey into the beating heart of CULTURE. Alongside sizzling special guests, they GET INTO the hottest pop-culture moments of the day and the formative cultural experiences that turned them into Culturistas. Produced by the Big Money Players Network and iHeartRadio.