March 18, 2020 • 40 mins
We are immersed in noise created by the busy-ness of our everyday lives. But how much of it is unnecessary? Bestselling author Ryan Holiday joins us in a conversation about his latest book, Stillness is the Key, stoicism and other ancient philosophies that challenge our infatuation with superficial symbols of status, and the stories we tell ourselves about our worth. On this stop on the Road to Somewhere, we’re reminded that striving for ideal starts from within, and the highest versions of ourselves can actually be accessed through stillness. Connect @RyanHoliday and DailyStoic.com.
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
What I love about the Stokes is they're not saying
that it's not it's not okay to be rich or
to be sex successful, or powerful or or famous. What
they're saying is that to need those things is a
really bad place to come from. Thanks for joining us
(00:32):
on the road to somewhere where we talk about exploration,
adventure and major life change. It's all about transformation. It's
about not necessarily knowing where we're going, but having faith
that the journey will be worthwhile. I am Lisa Oz
and I am Jill Herzig, and I kind of want
to start our conversation today by thinking about reactivity a
(00:52):
little bit in this world that is full of stimuli.
Things that make us scared, things that make us any great,
things that make us nervous or worried. The reactivity just
it feels like I feel like it's a constant battle
not to be jumping from every stimulus. You feel that. Um,
(01:13):
I think it is a universal problem for most of us. Yeah,
which is why we have our guests today, because he
can help us with that. God. Yes, I hope so
Ryan Holiday is with us today, and he is. I
would argue the world, world's foremost expert on stoicism, at
least he's reintroduced stoicism to the twenty one century. Um.
(01:37):
His new book is Stillness is the Key. Ryan, thank
you so much for being with us today. Yeah, of course,
thanks for having me. So for listeners who aren't familiar
with your work, the four of them who are out there,
can you just give us a brief introduction to what
stoicism is. Yeah, I can imagine when they're hearing that
(01:59):
word a third not familiar with it, their their reaction
is probably negative. Right, Still stoicism two people means sort
of the absence of emotion or this sort of like
um enduring of pain and and there might be a
part of that in socism, but really it's a it's
a it's a robust, resilient strategy philosophy from ancient history
(02:22):
that is built around sort of four key concepts. And
those sort of four virtues of stoicism are courage. The
world always needs more courage, justice, doing the right thing.
We always need people to be doing the right thing, moderation,
so finding balance, and then finally wisdom, the pursuit of
knowledge and understanding. So it's not a philosophy of just
(02:43):
sort of taking taking pain without flinching. It's really a
way of life, a way of living. I feel like,
sort of at the core of stoicism is this idea
that we don't control a lot of what happens in life,
what happens in the world, what happens to us in life.
But ultimately the stoics believed we controlled how we responded,
(03:04):
and we can so that we don't control what happens,
we control how we respond, and so that's kind of
what I write about, and that's what to me, stoicism
is really all about. So that's the connection to reactivity, right,
It's how we react to it, whether we react to it,
whether we overreact to it or I guess maybe underreact
to some things too. Sure, Yeah, it is interesting because
(03:29):
I think it is very empowering to go, Okay, you
don't control what happens, you control how you respond. At
the same time, I would also argue most people are
way too reactive in life, and they're sort of pinging
around or being sent in all these directions because stuff
is just always happening to them. So I don't I
guess that might seem a little contradictory, but I don't
(03:49):
think it is. I think whether stoic Is is really going. Okay,
there's gonna be all these things that are happening in life,
and I'm gonna be sort of provoked or or produd
in different directions, and I'm going to choose what I'm
going to react to. I'm going to choose how I'm
going to react. I'm gonna be very intentional about how
I go through the world, because the last thing you
(04:09):
want to do is sort of hand over your happiness
or your equanimity to you know, whatever is pinging on
your phone, or you know, whatever is going on on
social media or whatever you know you're seeing on CNN
as it's running in the in the background as you're
walking through the airport. So how did you discover this? Yours?
(04:31):
Is a young, hip, brilliant guy, like, how did how
did the ancients find you? And like, Hi, check your life? Yeah, no,
that's that's definitely what they did. A friend of mine
is referred to he said, there's a sort of a
breed of books that he calls quake books, like an earthquake,
books that just sort of shake everything that you know
(04:51):
about the world. And and that's what what Stoicism was
for me. Believe it or not, I was. I was
introduced to uh Stoicism by an another one of America's
most famous doctors, Dr Drew Pinski. I was in a
I was at a conference in college and he was
the guest speaker. The conference was sponsored by Trojan Condoms
(05:13):
of all And And afterwards I just went up to
him and I asked him if he had any book recommendations,
and he recommended that I read the Stoics. And it
not only changed the course of my life, but it's
set in motion a friendship between he and I that
that's been very rewarding. So it's just this kind of
totally random thing that I feel very grateful for. But
(05:33):
it's came from somewhat strange circumstances. So with Stoicism, a
bunch of them are Greek and a bunch of them
are Roman. What unifies the field. The Greeks were coming
to it sort of created that they're sort of inventing it,
coming up with this philosophy or around the time of Aristotle.
(05:55):
And then what ends up happening is Rome takes over
Greece uh and and as the Roman Empire becomes the
sort of center of the world. The philosopher's flocked to Rome.
But what's interesting is that we now tend to think
of philosophers as just teachers or just academics, just thinkers.
But in the ancient world, particularly in Rome, as all
(06:17):
of a sudden they're running this enormous empire, philosophy was
what the rulers and the generals and the business people
needed to manage just all of the stuff that they
were responsible for. So stoicism very early on became intertwined
with politics, with governance, you know, with with business, with
(06:40):
the military, and that sort of tradition continues to this day.
And that stoicism is not a philosophy for people who
have a PhD at Harvard, but it's more a philosophy
for people in the real world doing real stuff. So
I think that the unifying theme between you know, the Greeks,
the Romans, and now the professional ath leads and the
(07:00):
business people and the and the I just I just
spoke to a group of Marines about stoicism in San
Diego last week. What ties all that together is that
we're all the same people living in the same world,
relatively powerless over all these things that are happening, but
we're trying to figure out, Okay, how should I respond,
what what should I respond to? And how can I
(07:22):
live a really good life and be a good person,
and what sort of framework can cannot can you provide
for me to do that? So that kind of leads
into you personally, and since this is like a personal
show about personal transformation. The first book of yours that
I read was trust Me, I'm Lying, and it was
(07:45):
probably the most brilliant book I've ever read on marketing
and not I wouldn't say it was like an ethical
primer um. And you're writing that at the same time
you're writing like ego as the enemy and the obstacles away,
which are deeply spiritual and you know, philosophical got books
on how to live a good life? Um, how does
(08:09):
did did and does the the stoicism influenced the master marketer? Marketer? Yeah? Well,
I think stoicism informed that book in the sense that
without it, I'm not sure the book would exist. And
by that I mean I I was. I got into
(08:31):
sort of internet and digital marketing very early. I worked
with all these controversial clients and I did a lot
of really cool stuff. But I became sort of increasingly
disillusioned with just how fragile and manipulatable the system was
and the vulnerabilities that were in it. And so I think, um,
you know, when you find something like that, you can
(08:51):
kind of go down. You can go in two directions,
one which is you could say, wow, I could make
a lot of money doing this, or I could you know,
I could get a lot of power from this. Or
you could say this is not right. I don't like this.
I'm going to try to do something about it. And
so I think, ultimately, uh, you know, I went down
the first road. I won't deny it, but at a
(09:11):
certain point I turned back and said, you know, this
is not what I want to do with my life.
And and I ultimately decided to write the book because
I felt like there was a perspective that I had
on how things actually operated behind the scenes that that
I didn't think we're I didn't think was proper, and
I didn't think was good for the world. And so
(09:32):
I wrote that book. You know, and people can dispute
it if they want, but I I saw that book
as a tell all, as a sort of an expose
about how a system operated, and I think stoicism not
only informed why I felt like I should do that,
but it was scary. I mean I felt like I
was blowing up my career. I felt like I knew
I was going to make a lot of people angry,
(09:52):
a lot of people would think I was the bad guy,
and so stoicism sort of informed that process all all
all through throughout it. Did it blow something up in
your career? I mean, did you? Yeah? I mean it's certainly.
I certainly would have been better not to explain exactly
all the loopholes that were easy to take advantage of.
I mean, I think it would have been I could
(10:13):
have made more money, you know, selling access to those
strategies directly to people, or or I could have said,
look like, this is how it works. I don't care
who I'm helping or um what causes I'm advancing, as
long as their checks clear, I'm just gonna, you know,
take advantage of that. And I just decided that wasn't
(10:34):
the kind of person that I wanted to be. And
and I think largely what motivated that book was seeing like, Okay,
if I'm having such an easy time doing this for
authors or public figures or brands. But but I'm doing
so within the bounds of you know, sort of normal society.
What could someone who really wants to sort of tear
(10:55):
the whole thing down or what what could of what
could real bad actors do using the same tactics, And
I think, you know, we're starting to wake up. One
of the one of the benefits that came out of
the election was realizing just how vulnerable we were to
to Um. Yeah, I was going to ask you if
you if you feel increasingly horrified by this? Oh of course.
(11:18):
I mean, look, uh, the guy that gave Donald Trump
the idea for the wall, Trust Me Online is his
favorite book. So I don't. I don't feel great about that.
You know that that's that's certainly not what I was
hoping to accomplish with the book. But I do feel
like people like that are like their moves are so transparent,
(11:43):
and how they operate is so uh understandable at this
point that that the media deserves a lot of culpability
for allowing themselves to be so sort of easily manipulated.
I think Donald Trump got something like two billion dollars
worth of free publicity during the thousand and sixteen election,
by the major media outlets. The major media quoted something
(12:04):
like nineteen hundred fake Russian Twitter accounts in news stories
in the election. You know, like bad actors are going
to be bad actors, But the fourth of State, you know,
almost needs a check in balance against itself because it's
kind of fallen down on the job in many ways. Well,
when we come back, we'll talk a little bit more
(12:25):
about accountability. And I do want to touch on your
new books Stillness is Key. Before the break, we were
chatting with Ryan Holiday, author of Stillness is the Key
(12:49):
about his work with UM with marketing and and I
do think being personally accountable is fundamental to holding everybody
else accountable to And I think understanding our own role
and in in what we are reaping societally is important.
(13:11):
And I think that your new book on stillness gives
us the tools to actually hold ourselves accountable. Can we
talk about stillness a little bit and why it's so
such an essential part of so many philosophies. Yeah, I
I do think at the end of the day, reformation
has to start at home, right, So we're we've we've
(13:32):
I think it's great that we've started to wake up
to some of the dangers and excesses of social media,
you know, some of the the problems with our sort
of seven news culture, with all these things. But at
the at the end of the day, like I'm worried
that people now can just sort of blame these big
monoliths or these big behemos for all the problems that
(13:54):
are going on in the world and in their life,
and ultimately we have to take sort of personal responsibility
for ourselves. So it's you know, Facebook is not the problem,
although it is a problem, Like your relationship with Facebook
is the problem, and how are you going to resolve
that in your own life? And writing this book about stillness,
I realized like I had to make a bunch of
changes in my life, Like I quit Facebook, and you know,
(14:16):
January of of of last year, it's been wonderful. My
new thing is I don't I use this app called
spar and it sort of does these challenges and it
charges you money if you if you don't hit the
goal for the day. And my the one one I've
been doing that I've really loved lately is like I
don't touch my phone for a minimum of the first
thirty minutes of the day. And this morning, I got
(14:39):
up at six and I didn't use my phone until
a thirty when I had to get you know, directions
for somewhere that I was driving. And so, um, the
idea of saying, look, these things are addictive, they are manipulative, manipulative,
they can you know, make you unhappy, but then deciding
how are you going? Instead of just railing about them
on social media? Uh, how can you decide like, hey,
(15:03):
I'm gonna be very intentional about how I use technology
or how I use alcohol or how I relate to food.
It's just deciding to to sort of take ownership of
your own life. I think that's really important. So intention
seems like it's a huge part of this philosophical bent.
Can you just explore that and and how do you
you know? Of course it sounds tidy and neat and fabulous, um,
(15:26):
and there's an app for that apparently, but but I'm
it is so much harder in practice. So yeah, of course,
I mean, I think you want to kind of see
will power as a muscle in your life. And so
instead of you know, just magically hoping that you'll be
able to resist temptations or that you know you'll you'll
be able to respond the right way in the right situation.
(15:49):
It's deciding to sort of actively practice these things, right
so you know, it's it's not like, hey, I don't
want to use my phone too much, it's hey, here
is when I'm going to use my phone, and sort
of building around that or um, like, for instance, like
I have a problem over committing to stuff, right like
when things come in I say yes, then I regret it,
(16:11):
and so I have to like work with the people
on my team and go, look, look, I'm not allowed
to have more than say, three things in my calendar
each day because if I have too many that I'm
not spending that time writing, I'm not doing my job.
And that's what keeps this sort of whole thing going.
So so when I think of the word intentional, I
mean sort of one knowing what you want to do
(16:32):
and how you want to do it, but then also
setting in place systems or structures are incentives that not
only sort of encourage that behavior, but allow you to
sort of develop momentum and strength in doing that behavior.
In your book, you break down stillness into three parts
(16:54):
you mind, soul, and body, which is interesting because most
people always you put the spirit soul part at the
and you know, it's like, funny, my spirit. So you
kind of flipped that on Tad, which I love. But
can you talk a little bit about how those are
connected and how they build on each other in in
regards to stillness. So I think when people hear this
word stillness, they maybe just think it's like, oh, that's
(17:16):
clearing the mind or that's meditating, right, Like it's just
sort of That's exactly what I thought when I held
your book in my hands, I thought, oh my god,
I gotta meditate on one thing I've heard over and
over doing this podcast. Start to meditate, sholl That's like
the one that's actually the one thing I decided was
not going to be in the book in any way.
It was basically not going to talk about meditation um
(17:38):
and And the reason for that is, like, I feel
like that's only part of the equation. Like let's say,
let's say you decide you you are intentional, you commit,
and you meditate ten minutes every morning, but then you
go back to your life and you're just generally a
really jealous person, or you have untreated traumas, or you've
built your career around proving people wrong or or um
(18:00):
you know you're you're deeply motivated by anger, that that
clarity that you got in the morning is gonna be
very short lived. And and just like if you have
you know, sort of great spiritual alignment, but then you
go home to your enormous mansion which is filled with
a bunch of crap that you don't need, and you're
sort of drowning under your own stuff, that's also not so.
Or or if you have bad habits or bad systems
(18:22):
or bad routines again that the stillness is going to
be ephemeral. And so what I'm trying to do in
the book is is go like stillness is this if
that's sort of equanimity, the ability to sort of be
still while the world is spinning around you, even if
you're in the middle of a busy job or a
you know, a busy life, or you know, I can
hear my my kids running around downstairs. Uh, like, how
(18:46):
can you? How can you have that sort of stillness
on command to use your life? But you're gonna have
is gonna have this is gonna require some holistic solutions
or strategies. You've got to sort of figure out how
to slow your mind down. You've got to figure out
how to get your your sort of heart and your
emotions in the right place. And then ultimately you've got
(19:06):
to take care of yourself physically, um and and environmentally
if you want this to be enduring or meaningful stillness
in any way. Okay, So all of this sounds great,
and the holistic component of it is incredibly appealing to me,
But I also get a feeling of wait a second,
(19:28):
isn't that just sort of striving for a perfect life,
like striving for an ideal that is just always going
to be out of reach and depending on what you
have access to in your life, further and further and
further out of reach at different times. Yeah, I'm definitely
not talking about perfection, and I think I am talking
(19:49):
about is integration. So what are the heroes to me
in the book? Was? Was? Was John F. Kennedy? Like?
I was fascinated with the sort of stillness and the
poison the equanimity that John F. Kennedy it was rates
In the Cuban missile crisis, he basically saves all of humanity,
backs us from the backs us off from the brink
of nuclear war, at the same time, as great as
(20:09):
he was over these thirteen days, you know, he's also
cheating on Jackie during the missile crisis instead of being
home with his family. The world is about to destroy,
you know, he he's hooking up with like a basically
a young girl in a Washington, d C. Hotel room.
So I'm not saying that we have to strive to
be perfect, but I do think we we should always
be trying to get better, and we should be trying
(20:32):
to integrate ourselves. So so you're so you're seeing him
as someone who maybe was very cut off. There was
this cut off part of himself that was carrying on
taking risks and betraying people and whatever, while this other
part of him was able to be incredibly still, focused
and purposeful. Compartmentalization is something we want to work on.
(20:55):
Tiger Woods being another great example on the golf course,
incredibly still, but in his private life is sort of
coming apart at the scenes and and eventually one destroys
the other. And I think we all have versions of that.
So it's you know, you're you're you know, you're incredibly
successful at your job, but you're you know, your marriage
is falling. Apart of your you know, you're you're you're
(21:16):
doing great, you trade stocks, You're on this incredible run,
But your relationship with your parents is a mess, and
it's the source of a lot of your insecurities and
the anger that you feel. Um. And so what I'm
talking about is just making the decision to really attack
and address all these different areas so we can get
to a place where. I think when people hear stillness,
(21:38):
they think, Okay, I gotta go somewhere where there's quiet.
I gotta go somewhere beautiful. I gotta take things off
my plate. You know, I think they're they're thinking about
it only um externally. But often the real source of
our lack of stillness is is interior. It's our emotions,
it's our thoughts, it's that you know, sort of racing
voice in the back of our head, or it's our ego.
(22:00):
Oh and then there's other people who have mastered that,
but they are you know, they live in New York
City and they hate it, and if they move somewhere
else they'd have more sort of peace and quiet. So
there's lots of different angles to attack this problem from.
I don't think it's about comparing yourself against an ideal.
But it is about sort of trying to make a
little bit of progress every day. One of the one
(22:21):
of the stereotypes I think, and I don't know, I
wouldn't say dangerous, but one of the places I get
caught up in the whole idea of stillness. And it
was what the problem I had with Buddhism when I
was studying Buddhism is that it there's a line between
equanimity and escapism or detachment. And what I didn't like about,
(22:43):
like when Buddhism is like you love everybody and you're
not attached anyone, was like, I love my husband, I
love my kids, So how do you maintain a place
of stillness but still I don't know. It's it's the
attachment thing, right Can you be attached and still have stillness?
I struggle with that as well. And one of the
(23:04):
interesting things about Buddha's story is that to seek enlightenment,
Buddha walks away. You know, Buddha as a prince, he
walks away from that. We kind of understand that, you know,
but then he also walks away from his wife and
his young child. And that doesn't seem like enlightenment. To me,
being a deadbeat is not enlightenment. That's like that that's
the opposite of enlightenment, right, And so, uh, that's why
(23:27):
I'm interested in stillness in the real world. I think
the way I get there it's not attachment. Can when
you say it's a sort of being detached, we think
that means you don't care. Um. What the Stokes talk
a lot about is sort of realizing that the people
that you love, um, you don't possess them, you can't
(23:47):
keep them, and and because they can go away, they
can leave, or life can take them from you, or
life can take you from them. What the Stoics talk
about instead is like deciding to be really present and
really enjoying the moment in front of you. So it's
it's about not being attached to the past or to
(24:08):
the future, but being deeply engaged and locked into what's
in front of you. So that's that's kind of how
I split that difference and try to think about it.
Is it's like, Okay, I can't make my kids my
whole world because that's not fair to them, and it's
also deeply sort of fragile strategy. But I can you know,
(24:30):
in this moment where we're sitting on the couch, actually
be there and show up for it and not try
to rush through it, and also not miss it because
I'm ruminating on, you know, some email that I got.
When we come back, I want to delve into some
specific steps we can take to utilize the stillness to
make our lives better. We've been chatting about stillness with
(25:02):
Ryan Holiday, and I want to take the whole concept
of stillness and apply it to the topic that brought
Jill and me together, Um, the Good Life. That was
the name of the magazine we've both worked on. Um,
so can you tell us? And the good Life is
(25:23):
a big part of philosophy in general, but stoics in particular.
Point Yeah, so can you talk about the good life
from the Stoic perspective for a bit? Yeah. So, I've
come to define a good life as autonomy, right, Like
do you have control over what you're doing and why
you're doing it? Right? So, Um, what the stokes are
(25:45):
really interested in is like how much control you have
over yourself even if you're living under a tyrant or
you're living in a time of chaos. They're like, are
you being are you being intentional? Are you leading your
life or are you being led around by life? So
for me, what I think about, even like with success,
is like, if my success is making me busier and
(26:09):
busier and uh, you know, more obligated and more obligated,
that I'm going in the wrong direction. If my success
is allowing me the freedom to have to to to
pursue the things I want to pursue, to explore what
I want to pursue, to have to have time with
my family, with friends, to enjoy what I have, then
(26:30):
that's great. Right. So so I think really really thinking
about what I think what the Stokes would urge people
to do is is not think about success or power
or um, you know, the things that you want, not
don't think about them through the lens of what everyone
else says is good, but really think about, like what
does a great day look like for you? Like what
(26:51):
does a good life look like to you? And then
making sure that you're making decisions that are getting you
closer to that and not further away from that m hm.
And what looks like a good life to me might
look nothing like a good life to you. It's it's
extremely individual. I think. I think so, and that's why
(27:14):
it could I mean, just to stretch it, could it
potentially involve Let's say you're a very You're just a
very ambitious person. That's how you are, That's what drives you.
That's what you You want to speak to mass audiences,
you want to touch as many lives as possible, or
you want to build a huge company. That's just what
you're driven to do. So that could fit in despite
(27:34):
say the trade offs that are that might be required.
That could fit into the good life. If it's if
it's if it's authentically what how you define it? Yeah,
I think so it provided that it's sort of checked
against those virtues we were talking about earlier, of sort
of justice and moderation. So it's like, if you have
(27:56):
an insatiable appetite for power and success and fame and
and there's never enough for you, I think eventually that
ends in ruin. Or if if your power and success
is coming at the expense of other people, you have
an exploitative company, or you have an evil company, or
you know, you're a dictator who's taking over the world. Obviously,
(28:18):
these are not not good places. And I don't I
don't think think Unfortunately, this person I've this hypothetical person
very much not me that I've just described, often winds up.
And I don't I think that's it's not a good life.
I don't think that's what Ryan's talking about, because very specifically,
and if you want to talk about philosophers, the whole
idea is rooted in virtue and that's not a life.
(28:40):
That's a life of hedonism. And I think it was
Epicurus who said, you know, you can't have a pleasurable
life without an honorable and I don't remember all the
other adjectives are that he described, but it the good
life is rooted in there's no real The irony is
you think free. Your freedom is doing whatever you feel like.
The freedom is doing what you know is right. Please
(29:04):
correct me if I'm wrong. No, I think that's very
beautifully said. And like what I try to think about
is like whatever you're doing, whether you're trying to run
a magazine or build a podcast, or you know, make
the Olympics, or you're you know, you're trying to become president,
it's like, are you doing that from a place of
craving or you doing that from a place of fullness?
(29:27):
So Are you doing it from a place where you
feel good about yourself, you feel like you can add value,
you feel like you can make a difference, you feel like, uh,
it's a challenge you're excited about. Or are you doing
it from a place of like, I gotta prove these
people wrong. I need this, you know, it's gonna be
so amazing. Once I have it, then I'll finally be happy,
(29:49):
you know, like the Stokes talk the Stokes are. What
I love about the Stokes is they're not saying that
it's not okay to be rich or to be successful,
or powerful or or famous. What they're saying is that
to need those things is a really bad place to
come from. So if you're coming, if you're like, it's
not until I'm the most powerful man in the world
(30:12):
that I will feel good, Or it's not until I
have the perfect family then my parents will finally accept
me and love me and be what they should have
been all along that one turns out. That's the irony
is none. It never turns out well, right, Like, But
if you're coming at it like I think about it
(30:33):
with books, like, am I writing this book because I
want to make money? Am I writing this book because
I want to hit the best seller lists. Am I
writing this book because I want to go do lots
of interviews about it? Those are really bad reasons. If
I'm writing this book because I because I have something
to say, and I actually enjoy the writing process, and
it's it's a it's a challenge that gets me up
(30:53):
every morning. That's a not only is that a better
place to come from as a human being, but I
think that produces better work. Ultimately. I think people can
smell and fear feel that desperation, whatever industry you're operating it.
M hmm, yeah, I think that's true. I know you
you what you described um also touches on the concept
(31:21):
of having enough. You talk about that in the book too,
because sometimes even what the word evening, you're you feel
good about your drive, You're doing it for the right reasons.
It's like you're you're writing, it's still there's sometimes that
insatiability that keeps pushing you past the point where it
(31:44):
is it is a virtuous and just endeavor. So can
we talk about that the word Yeah, I think that's
sort of the paradox. And you see this with athletes
a lot. It's like, what makes someone a champion. Is
there relentless, insatiable thirst for improvement, for getting better, for
not being satisfied, Which is a strength, But the weakness,
(32:07):
the vulnerability of that strategy is like even as they're
even as the confetti is coming down, because they've won
the championship, they can't be proud of themselves, they can't
be grateful, they can't appreciate it. All they can think
about is what's next. And I think we kind of,
you know, as a society, we encourage that as well,
Like I'm sure you guys get this all the time,
(32:28):
like people, oh, you know of listening to the show,
I'm what you're doing so awesome? You have all this
stuff going on. You're like, yes, it's great, and then go,
so what's next for you? You know, like, oh my god,
it's a horrible question. It's horrible. And I think it
encapsulates our inability to be satisfied. And I don't think
(32:50):
we do great things thinking about what's next. I think
we do great things when we sort of kind of
um follow our hearts and like I was saying, when
we come from a place of fullness, not from craving.
So on the one hand, we understand why it's beneficial
to human to to the human species that were never satisfied.
That's why life keeps getting better and we keep having
(33:12):
these technological advancements and all that. But at the same time,
we've got to realize at the individual level, if you're impossible,
like epicurious. Also the sign he said, um uh, nothing
is enough for the person who enough is too little.
And and when you look at history there's there's no
conqueror whoever. You know, finally got to that last country
(33:34):
and then thought, I did it. Now I can retire, right,
Like we always we invent the next thing. It's funny.
I was reading a story, I think in the Times
about this Kenyan marathon or who Nike works with, and
he's the greatest marathon has ever lived. Name is escaping
me mind. It's very difficult to pronounce. But he's a
very brilliant We've all watched him run and win, and
(33:57):
he wanted Nike wanted to help him break two hours,
so they arranged this utterly atypical marathon situation for him.
Um so he wouldn't be running under normal circumstances. So
it's not a real record in a marathon because it
can't be recreated in an actual race. Um. But they
created these ideal conditions and he made it. I think
(34:19):
he was like forty seconds under two hours, and he
ran with all of these other famous marathon eers who
helped him keep pace. UM. And it was just such
a beautiful story because he It's not that he wasn't
motivated and Nike wasn't particularly motivated by wanting to break
(34:40):
the record because it's not going to be a real record,
it wasn't a real race. He wanted to show it
could be done so that the runners who come after
him know that it is humanly possible to do this
and aim for it. It was just it was I mean,
I'm I'm no kind of a lead athlete, and I
just felt so moved by that. On some level, I
(35:02):
think he's he's a he's a fascinating, uh person, And
and what I think is interesting what I'm I'm a
bit of a runner myself, but I always try to
remind myself as like, so, you know, you go for
a run and you see how the people pass you
or you pass other people. UM. The mind is always
trying to compare ourselves to other people to sort of
create competition, and what you have to realize is that
(35:24):
we're all running our own different races. And it takes
there's a sort of a quiet confidence, in a stillness
that comes from realizing that you're not racing against anyone else,
You're only racing against yourself. You're racing against your own capacities.
And that if you're if you're trying to do things
to set records or to win the most of this,
or to make the most of that, I think you're
(35:46):
doing it for the wrong reasons. If you're doing it
because you're trying to see, can you realize what you're
capable of, that's much better. And when I really think
is fascinating about him. He's talked about this. He he
talks about how hard it is to train, that he
he almost never runs at a percent capacity, how much,
(36:06):
how like he's like, I love running, I'm trying to
do this for a long time. That actually he's actually
required to be very disciplined about his self discipline like
if left to his own devices, he'd run really fast
all the time, he'd get hurt, he'd burn himself out,
and that to do these sort of big things that
he wants to do he has to have that practice,
that moderation of going. Know, today I'm only running at
(36:28):
se and I have to stay you know, like I
have to sort of put these limits around myself. So
because at the end of the day, like the good
life is when I'm after I don't want to I
don't want to have a short career. I want to
have a long career, and I wanna have a happy career,
and I wanna want to be intentional about it as
part of the good life. And it's something that you
touch on in your book. You mentioned the need for
(36:50):
an acknowledgement of a higher power. Why is that important?
I think like the blunt is level. It's like you
it's not that you have to believe in God, it's
just you can't believe that you're a god, you know.
I think that's sort of unfortunately, this the modern condition
for a lot of people. We've as we've knocked away
(37:13):
all these old institutions, whether it was country or church
or um, you know, a trade or a craft, We've
become more and more the centers of our own universe.
And this is I think a precarious place to live.
It's a place that encourages ego that I think encourages
(37:33):
some of the hedonism we're talking about. And so, you know,
and and I grew up religious. I sort of became
an atheist as I've as I've studied and written about
this and and and really looked at it philosophically, I
feel like I've moved more towards the place of of
being agnostic, and that I have the humility to say
that I don't know, like and how could I know? Right?
(37:53):
And And I would have thought that that that place
of doubt would have made me feel more in cure,
but in fact it was the opposite. It's sort of
opened up a realm of possibility for me. But the Stoics,
although they did talk about the about God and the
gods um, I think they looked at it more like
(38:15):
the universe is so vast and complex and so much
larger than us that to to to sort of meditate
on that and think about it was really important as
far as sort of quieting the mind, you know, helping
reduce your desire to control and and you know, sort
(38:36):
of be the center of everything and just help you
practice some acceptance. Uh. And I think there's a lot
of sort of grace and quiet and acceptance that not
not thinking you can control everything. I love that. Thank you.
I definitely know I can't control anything. We loved having
you today. Thank you so much for being on our podcast.
(38:57):
Thank you guys for having me. This is awesome to
our listeners. Get Ryan's latest book, Stillness Is the Key,
and follow him at Ryan Holiday um and subscribe to
his writing too at Ryan Holiday dot net and or
The Daily Stoic dot com. I love that, UM. I
think I do need a dose of this daily. The
(39:19):
Road to Somewhere is recorded in New York City. Make
sure to share, subscribe, rate, and review us. We would
love to hear from you. Where are you on your journey?
Connect with us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter at pod
to Somewhere and email us at road to Somewhere at
I heart media dot com. Special thanks to Alicia Haywood,
(39:40):
are incredible producer. Thanks everyone for joining us on the
Road to Somewhere. We're available on the I Heart Radio app,
on Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcasts.
What I love about the Stokes is they're not saying
that it's not it's not okay to be rich or
to be sex successful, or powerful or or famous. What
they're saying is that to need those things is a
really bad place to come from. Thanks for joining us
(00:32):
on the road to somewhere where we talk about exploration,
adventure and major life change. It's all about transformation. It's
about not necessarily knowing where we're going, but having faith
that the journey will be worthwhile. I am Lisa Oz
and I am Jill Herzig, and I kind of want
to start our conversation today by thinking about reactivity a
(00:52):
little bit in this world that is full of stimuli.
Things that make us scared, things that make us any great,
things that make us nervous or worried. The reactivity just
it feels like I feel like it's a constant battle
not to be jumping from every stimulus. You feel that. Um,
(01:13):
I think it is a universal problem for most of us. Yeah,
which is why we have our guests today, because he
can help us with that. God. Yes, I hope so
Ryan Holiday is with us today, and he is. I
would argue the world, world's foremost expert on stoicism, at
least he's reintroduced stoicism to the twenty one century. Um.
(01:37):
His new book is Stillness is the Key. Ryan, thank
you so much for being with us today. Yeah, of course,
thanks for having me. So for listeners who aren't familiar
with your work, the four of them who are out there,
can you just give us a brief introduction to what
stoicism is. Yeah, I can imagine when they're hearing that
(01:59):
word a third not familiar with it, their their reaction
is probably negative. Right, Still stoicism two people means sort
of the absence of emotion or this sort of like
um enduring of pain and and there might be a
part of that in socism, but really it's a it's
a it's a robust, resilient strategy philosophy from ancient history
(02:22):
that is built around sort of four key concepts. And
those sort of four virtues of stoicism are courage. The
world always needs more courage, justice, doing the right thing.
We always need people to be doing the right thing, moderation,
so finding balance, and then finally wisdom, the pursuit of
knowledge and understanding. So it's not a philosophy of just
(02:43):
sort of taking taking pain without flinching. It's really a
way of life, a way of living. I feel like,
sort of at the core of stoicism is this idea
that we don't control a lot of what happens in life,
what happens in the world, what happens to us in life.
But ultimately the stoics believed we controlled how we responded,
(03:04):
and we can so that we don't control what happens,
we control how we respond, and so that's kind of
what I write about, and that's what to me, stoicism
is really all about. So that's the connection to reactivity, right,
It's how we react to it, whether we react to it,
whether we overreact to it or I guess maybe underreact
to some things too. Sure, Yeah, it is interesting because
(03:29):
I think it is very empowering to go, Okay, you
don't control what happens, you control how you respond. At
the same time, I would also argue most people are
way too reactive in life, and they're sort of pinging
around or being sent in all these directions because stuff
is just always happening to them. So I don't I
guess that might seem a little contradictory, but I don't
(03:49):
think it is. I think whether stoic Is is really going. Okay,
there's gonna be all these things that are happening in life,
and I'm gonna be sort of provoked or or produd
in different directions, and I'm going to choose what I'm
going to react to. I'm going to choose how I'm
going to react. I'm gonna be very intentional about how
I go through the world, because the last thing you
(04:09):
want to do is sort of hand over your happiness
or your equanimity to you know, whatever is pinging on
your phone, or you know, whatever is going on on
social media or whatever you know you're seeing on CNN
as it's running in the in the background as you're
walking through the airport. So how did you discover this? Yours?
(04:31):
Is a young, hip, brilliant guy, like, how did how
did the ancients find you? And like, Hi, check your life? Yeah, no,
that's that's definitely what they did. A friend of mine
is referred to he said, there's a sort of a
breed of books that he calls quake books, like an earthquake,
books that just sort of shake everything that you know
(04:51):
about the world. And and that's what what Stoicism was
for me. Believe it or not, I was. I was
introduced to uh Stoicism by an another one of America's
most famous doctors, Dr Drew Pinski. I was in a
I was at a conference in college and he was
the guest speaker. The conference was sponsored by Trojan Condoms
(05:13):
of all And And afterwards I just went up to
him and I asked him if he had any book recommendations,
and he recommended that I read the Stoics. And it
not only changed the course of my life, but it's
set in motion a friendship between he and I that
that's been very rewarding. So it's just this kind of
totally random thing that I feel very grateful for. But
(05:33):
it's came from somewhat strange circumstances. So with Stoicism, a
bunch of them are Greek and a bunch of them
are Roman. What unifies the field. The Greeks were coming
to it sort of created that they're sort of inventing it,
coming up with this philosophy or around the time of Aristotle.
(05:55):
And then what ends up happening is Rome takes over
Greece uh and and as the Roman Empire becomes the
sort of center of the world. The philosopher's flocked to Rome.
But what's interesting is that we now tend to think
of philosophers as just teachers or just academics, just thinkers.
But in the ancient world, particularly in Rome, as all
(06:17):
of a sudden they're running this enormous empire, philosophy was
what the rulers and the generals and the business people
needed to manage just all of the stuff that they
were responsible for. So stoicism very early on became intertwined
with politics, with governance, you know, with with business, with
(06:40):
the military, and that sort of tradition continues to this day.
And that stoicism is not a philosophy for people who
have a PhD at Harvard, but it's more a philosophy
for people in the real world doing real stuff. So
I think that the unifying theme between you know, the Greeks,
the Romans, and now the professional ath leads and the
(07:00):
business people and the and the I just I just
spoke to a group of Marines about stoicism in San
Diego last week. What ties all that together is that
we're all the same people living in the same world,
relatively powerless over all these things that are happening, but
we're trying to figure out, Okay, how should I respond,
what what should I respond to? And how can I
(07:22):
live a really good life and be a good person,
and what sort of framework can cannot can you provide
for me to do that? So that kind of leads
into you personally, and since this is like a personal
show about personal transformation. The first book of yours that
I read was trust Me, I'm Lying, and it was
(07:45):
probably the most brilliant book I've ever read on marketing
and not I wouldn't say it was like an ethical
primer um. And you're writing that at the same time
you're writing like ego as the enemy and the obstacles away,
which are deeply spiritual and you know, philosophical got books
on how to live a good life? Um, how does
(08:09):
did did and does the the stoicism influenced the master marketer? Marketer? Yeah? Well,
I think stoicism informed that book in the sense that
without it, I'm not sure the book would exist. And
by that I mean I I was. I got into
(08:31):
sort of internet and digital marketing very early. I worked
with all these controversial clients and I did a lot
of really cool stuff. But I became sort of increasingly
disillusioned with just how fragile and manipulatable the system was
and the vulnerabilities that were in it. And so I think, um,
you know, when you find something like that, you can
(08:51):
kind of go down. You can go in two directions,
one which is you could say, wow, I could make
a lot of money doing this, or I could you know,
I could get a lot of power from this. Or
you could say this is not right. I don't like this.
I'm going to try to do something about it. And
so I think, ultimately, uh, you know, I went down
the first road. I won't deny it, but at a
(09:11):
certain point I turned back and said, you know, this
is not what I want to do with my life.
And and I ultimately decided to write the book because
I felt like there was a perspective that I had
on how things actually operated behind the scenes that that
I didn't think we're I didn't think was proper, and
I didn't think was good for the world. And so
(09:32):
I wrote that book. You know, and people can dispute
it if they want, but I I saw that book
as a tell all, as a sort of an expose
about how a system operated, and I think stoicism not
only informed why I felt like I should do that,
but it was scary. I mean I felt like I
was blowing up my career. I felt like I knew
I was going to make a lot of people angry,
(09:52):
a lot of people would think I was the bad guy,
and so stoicism sort of informed that process all all
all through throughout it. Did it blow something up in
your career? I mean, did you? Yeah? I mean it's certainly.
I certainly would have been better not to explain exactly
all the loopholes that were easy to take advantage of.
I mean, I think it would have been I could
(10:13):
have made more money, you know, selling access to those
strategies directly to people, or or I could have said,
look like, this is how it works. I don't care
who I'm helping or um what causes I'm advancing, as
long as their checks clear, I'm just gonna, you know,
take advantage of that. And I just decided that wasn't
(10:34):
the kind of person that I wanted to be. And
and I think largely what motivated that book was seeing like, Okay,
if I'm having such an easy time doing this for
authors or public figures or brands. But but I'm doing
so within the bounds of you know, sort of normal society.
What could someone who really wants to sort of tear
(10:55):
the whole thing down or what what could of what
could real bad actors do using the same tactics, And
I think, you know, we're starting to wake up. One
of the one of the benefits that came out of
the election was realizing just how vulnerable we were to
to Um. Yeah, I was going to ask you if
you if you feel increasingly horrified by this? Oh of course.
(11:18):
I mean, look, uh, the guy that gave Donald Trump
the idea for the wall, Trust Me Online is his
favorite book. So I don't. I don't feel great about that.
You know that that's that's certainly not what I was
hoping to accomplish with the book. But I do feel
like people like that are like their moves are so transparent,
(11:43):
and how they operate is so uh understandable at this
point that that the media deserves a lot of culpability
for allowing themselves to be so sort of easily manipulated.
I think Donald Trump got something like two billion dollars
worth of free publicity during the thousand and sixteen election,
by the major media outlets. The major media quoted something
(12:04):
like nineteen hundred fake Russian Twitter accounts in news stories
in the election. You know, like bad actors are going
to be bad actors, But the fourth of State, you know,
almost needs a check in balance against itself because it's
kind of fallen down on the job in many ways. Well,
when we come back, we'll talk a little bit more
(12:25):
about accountability. And I do want to touch on your
new books Stillness is Key. Before the break, we were
chatting with Ryan Holiday, author of Stillness is the Key
(12:49):
about his work with UM with marketing and and I
do think being personally accountable is fundamental to holding everybody
else accountable to And I think understanding our own role
and in in what we are reaping societally is important.
(13:11):
And I think that your new book on stillness gives
us the tools to actually hold ourselves accountable. Can we
talk about stillness a little bit and why it's so
such an essential part of so many philosophies. Yeah, I
I do think at the end of the day, reformation
has to start at home, right, So we're we've we've
(13:32):
I think it's great that we've started to wake up
to some of the dangers and excesses of social media,
you know, some of the the problems with our sort
of seven news culture, with all these things. But at
the at the end of the day, like I'm worried
that people now can just sort of blame these big
monoliths or these big behemos for all the problems that
(13:54):
are going on in the world and in their life,
and ultimately we have to take sort of personal responsibility
for ourselves. So it's you know, Facebook is not the problem,
although it is a problem, Like your relationship with Facebook
is the problem, and how are you going to resolve
that in your own life? And writing this book about stillness,
I realized like I had to make a bunch of
changes in my life, Like I quit Facebook, and you know,
(14:16):
January of of of last year, it's been wonderful. My
new thing is I don't I use this app called
spar and it sort of does these challenges and it
charges you money if you if you don't hit the
goal for the day. And my the one one I've
been doing that I've really loved lately is like I
don't touch my phone for a minimum of the first
thirty minutes of the day. And this morning, I got
(14:39):
up at six and I didn't use my phone until
a thirty when I had to get you know, directions
for somewhere that I was driving. And so, um, the
idea of saying, look, these things are addictive, they are manipulative, manipulative,
they can you know, make you unhappy, but then deciding
how are you going? Instead of just railing about them
on social media? Uh, how can you decide like, hey,
(15:03):
I'm gonna be very intentional about how I use technology
or how I use alcohol or how I relate to food.
It's just deciding to to sort of take ownership of
your own life. I think that's really important. So intention
seems like it's a huge part of this philosophical bent.
Can you just explore that and and how do you
you know? Of course it sounds tidy and neat and fabulous, um,
(15:26):
and there's an app for that apparently, but but I'm
it is so much harder in practice. So yeah, of course,
I mean, I think you want to kind of see
will power as a muscle in your life. And so
instead of you know, just magically hoping that you'll be
able to resist temptations or that you know you'll you'll
be able to respond the right way in the right situation.
(15:49):
It's deciding to sort of actively practice these things, right
so you know, it's it's not like, hey, I don't
want to use my phone too much, it's hey, here
is when I'm going to use my phone, and sort
of building around that or um, like, for instance, like
I have a problem over committing to stuff, right like
when things come in I say yes, then I regret it,
(16:11):
and so I have to like work with the people
on my team and go, look, look, I'm not allowed
to have more than say, three things in my calendar
each day because if I have too many that I'm
not spending that time writing, I'm not doing my job.
And that's what keeps this sort of whole thing going.
So so when I think of the word intentional, I
mean sort of one knowing what you want to do
(16:32):
and how you want to do it, but then also
setting in place systems or structures are incentives that not
only sort of encourage that behavior, but allow you to
sort of develop momentum and strength in doing that behavior.
In your book, you break down stillness into three parts
(16:54):
you mind, soul, and body, which is interesting because most
people always you put the spirit soul part at the
and you know, it's like, funny, my spirit. So you
kind of flipped that on Tad, which I love. But
can you talk a little bit about how those are
connected and how they build on each other in in
regards to stillness. So I think when people hear this
word stillness, they maybe just think it's like, oh, that's
(17:16):
clearing the mind or that's meditating, right, Like it's just
sort of That's exactly what I thought when I held
your book in my hands, I thought, oh my god,
I gotta meditate on one thing I've heard over and
over doing this podcast. Start to meditate, sholl That's like
the one that's actually the one thing I decided was
not going to be in the book in any way.
It was basically not going to talk about meditation um
(17:38):
and And the reason for that is, like, I feel
like that's only part of the equation. Like let's say,
let's say you decide you you are intentional, you commit,
and you meditate ten minutes every morning, but then you
go back to your life and you're just generally a
really jealous person, or you have untreated traumas, or you've
built your career around proving people wrong or or um
(18:00):
you know you're you're deeply motivated by anger, that that
clarity that you got in the morning is gonna be
very short lived. And and just like if you have
you know, sort of great spiritual alignment, but then you
go home to your enormous mansion which is filled with
a bunch of crap that you don't need, and you're
sort of drowning under your own stuff, that's also not so.
Or or if you have bad habits or bad systems
(18:22):
or bad routines again that the stillness is going to
be ephemeral. And so what I'm trying to do in
the book is is go like stillness is this if
that's sort of equanimity, the ability to sort of be
still while the world is spinning around you, even if
you're in the middle of a busy job or a
you know, a busy life, or you know, I can
hear my my kids running around downstairs. Uh, like, how
(18:46):
can you? How can you have that sort of stillness
on command to use your life? But you're gonna have
is gonna have this is gonna require some holistic solutions
or strategies. You've got to sort of figure out how
to slow your mind down. You've got to figure out
how to get your your sort of heart and your
emotions in the right place. And then ultimately you've got
(19:06):
to take care of yourself physically, um and and environmentally
if you want this to be enduring or meaningful stillness
in any way. Okay, So all of this sounds great,
and the holistic component of it is incredibly appealing to me,
But I also get a feeling of wait a second,
(19:28):
isn't that just sort of striving for a perfect life,
like striving for an ideal that is just always going
to be out of reach and depending on what you
have access to in your life, further and further and
further out of reach at different times. Yeah, I'm definitely
not talking about perfection, and I think I am talking
(19:49):
about is integration. So what are the heroes to me
in the book? Was? Was? Was John F. Kennedy? Like?
I was fascinated with the sort of stillness and the
poison the equanimity that John F. Kennedy it was rates
In the Cuban missile crisis, he basically saves all of humanity,
backs us from the backs us off from the brink
of nuclear war, at the same time, as great as
(20:09):
he was over these thirteen days, you know, he's also
cheating on Jackie during the missile crisis instead of being
home with his family. The world is about to destroy,
you know, he he's hooking up with like a basically
a young girl in a Washington, d C. Hotel room.
So I'm not saying that we have to strive to
be perfect, but I do think we we should always
be trying to get better, and we should be trying
(20:32):
to integrate ourselves. So so you're so you're seeing him
as someone who maybe was very cut off. There was
this cut off part of himself that was carrying on
taking risks and betraying people and whatever, while this other
part of him was able to be incredibly still, focused
and purposeful. Compartmentalization is something we want to work on.
(20:55):
Tiger Woods being another great example on the golf course,
incredibly still, but in his private life is sort of
coming apart at the scenes and and eventually one destroys
the other. And I think we all have versions of that.
So it's you know, you're you're you know, you're incredibly
successful at your job, but you're you know, your marriage
is falling. Apart of your you know, you're you're you're
(21:16):
doing great, you trade stocks, You're on this incredible run,
But your relationship with your parents is a mess, and
it's the source of a lot of your insecurities and
the anger that you feel. Um. And so what I'm
talking about is just making the decision to really attack
and address all these different areas so we can get
to a place where. I think when people hear stillness,
(21:38):
they think, Okay, I gotta go somewhere where there's quiet.
I gotta go somewhere beautiful. I gotta take things off
my plate. You know, I think they're they're thinking about
it only um externally. But often the real source of
our lack of stillness is is interior. It's our emotions,
it's our thoughts, it's that you know, sort of racing
voice in the back of our head, or it's our ego.
(22:00):
Oh and then there's other people who have mastered that,
but they are you know, they live in New York
City and they hate it, and if they move somewhere
else they'd have more sort of peace and quiet. So
there's lots of different angles to attack this problem from.
I don't think it's about comparing yourself against an ideal.
But it is about sort of trying to make a
little bit of progress every day. One of the one
(22:21):
of the stereotypes I think, and I don't know, I
wouldn't say dangerous, but one of the places I get
caught up in the whole idea of stillness. And it
was what the problem I had with Buddhism when I
was studying Buddhism is that it there's a line between
equanimity and escapism or detachment. And what I didn't like about,
(22:43):
like when Buddhism is like you love everybody and you're
not attached anyone, was like, I love my husband, I
love my kids, So how do you maintain a place
of stillness but still I don't know. It's it's the
attachment thing, right Can you be attached and still have stillness?
I struggle with that as well. And one of the
(23:04):
interesting things about Buddha's story is that to seek enlightenment,
Buddha walks away. You know, Buddha as a prince, he
walks away from that. We kind of understand that, you know,
but then he also walks away from his wife and
his young child. And that doesn't seem like enlightenment. To me,
being a deadbeat is not enlightenment. That's like that that's
the opposite of enlightenment, right, And so, uh, that's why
(23:27):
I'm interested in stillness in the real world. I think
the way I get there it's not attachment. Can when
you say it's a sort of being detached, we think
that means you don't care. Um. What the Stokes talk
a lot about is sort of realizing that the people
that you love, um, you don't possess them, you can't
(23:47):
keep them, and and because they can go away, they
can leave, or life can take them from you, or
life can take you from them. What the Stoics talk
about instead is like deciding to be really present and
really enjoying the moment in front of you. So it's
it's about not being attached to the past or to
(24:08):
the future, but being deeply engaged and locked into what's
in front of you. So that's that's kind of how
I split that difference and try to think about it.
Is it's like, Okay, I can't make my kids my
whole world because that's not fair to them, and it's
also deeply sort of fragile strategy. But I can you know,
(24:30):
in this moment where we're sitting on the couch, actually
be there and show up for it and not try
to rush through it, and also not miss it because
I'm ruminating on, you know, some email that I got.
When we come back, I want to delve into some
specific steps we can take to utilize the stillness to
make our lives better. We've been chatting about stillness with
(25:02):
Ryan Holiday, and I want to take the whole concept
of stillness and apply it to the topic that brought
Jill and me together, Um, the Good Life. That was
the name of the magazine we've both worked on. Um,
so can you tell us? And the good Life is
(25:23):
a big part of philosophy in general, but stoics in particular.
Point Yeah, so can you talk about the good life
from the Stoic perspective for a bit? Yeah. So, I've
come to define a good life as autonomy, right, Like
do you have control over what you're doing and why
you're doing it? Right? So, Um, what the stokes are
(25:45):
really interested in is like how much control you have
over yourself even if you're living under a tyrant or
you're living in a time of chaos. They're like, are
you being are you being intentional? Are you leading your
life or are you being led around by life? So
for me, what I think about, even like with success,
is like, if my success is making me busier and
(26:09):
busier and uh, you know, more obligated and more obligated,
that I'm going in the wrong direction. If my success
is allowing me the freedom to have to to to
pursue the things I want to pursue, to explore what
I want to pursue, to have to have time with
my family, with friends, to enjoy what I have, then
(26:30):
that's great. Right. So so I think really really thinking
about what I think what the Stokes would urge people
to do is is not think about success or power
or um, you know, the things that you want, not
don't think about them through the lens of what everyone
else says is good, but really think about, like what
does a great day look like for you? Like what
(26:51):
does a good life look like to you? And then
making sure that you're making decisions that are getting you
closer to that and not further away from that m hm.
And what looks like a good life to me might
look nothing like a good life to you. It's it's
extremely individual. I think. I think so, and that's why
(27:14):
it could I mean, just to stretch it, could it
potentially involve Let's say you're a very You're just a
very ambitious person. That's how you are, That's what drives you.
That's what you You want to speak to mass audiences,
you want to touch as many lives as possible, or
you want to build a huge company. That's just what
you're driven to do. So that could fit in despite
(27:34):
say the trade offs that are that might be required.
That could fit into the good life. If it's if
it's if it's authentically what how you define it? Yeah,
I think so it provided that it's sort of checked
against those virtues we were talking about earlier, of sort
of justice and moderation. So it's like, if you have
(27:56):
an insatiable appetite for power and success and fame and
and there's never enough for you, I think eventually that
ends in ruin. Or if if your power and success
is coming at the expense of other people, you have
an exploitative company, or you have an evil company, or
you know, you're a dictator who's taking over the world. Obviously,
(28:18):
these are not not good places. And I don't I
don't think think Unfortunately, this person I've this hypothetical person
very much not me that I've just described, often winds up.
And I don't I think that's it's not a good life.
I don't think that's what Ryan's talking about, because very specifically,
and if you want to talk about philosophers, the whole
idea is rooted in virtue and that's not a life.
(28:40):
That's a life of hedonism. And I think it was
Epicurus who said, you know, you can't have a pleasurable
life without an honorable and I don't remember all the
other adjectives are that he described, but it the good
life is rooted in there's no real The irony is
you think free. Your freedom is doing whatever you feel like.
The freedom is doing what you know is right. Please
(29:04):
correct me if I'm wrong. No, I think that's very
beautifully said. And like what I try to think about
is like whatever you're doing, whether you're trying to run
a magazine or build a podcast, or you know, make
the Olympics, or you're you know, you're trying to become president,
it's like, are you doing that from a place of
craving or you doing that from a place of fullness?
(29:27):
So Are you doing it from a place where you
feel good about yourself, you feel like you can add value,
you feel like you can make a difference, you feel like, uh,
it's a challenge you're excited about. Or are you doing
it from a place of like, I gotta prove these
people wrong. I need this, you know, it's gonna be
so amazing. Once I have it, then I'll finally be happy,
(29:49):
you know, like the Stokes talk the Stokes are. What
I love about the Stokes is they're not saying that
it's not okay to be rich or to be successful,
or powerful or or famous. What they're saying is that
to need those things is a really bad place to
come from. So if you're coming, if you're like, it's
not until I'm the most powerful man in the world
(30:12):
that I will feel good, Or it's not until I
have the perfect family then my parents will finally accept
me and love me and be what they should have
been all along that one turns out. That's the irony
is none. It never turns out well, right, Like, But
if you're coming at it like I think about it
(30:33):
with books, like, am I writing this book because I
want to make money? Am I writing this book because
I want to hit the best seller lists. Am I
writing this book because I want to go do lots
of interviews about it? Those are really bad reasons. If
I'm writing this book because I because I have something
to say, and I actually enjoy the writing process, and
it's it's a it's a challenge that gets me up
(30:53):
every morning. That's a not only is that a better
place to come from as a human being, but I
think that produces better work. Ultimately. I think people can
smell and fear feel that desperation, whatever industry you're operating it.
M hmm, yeah, I think that's true. I know you
you what you described um also touches on the concept
(31:21):
of having enough. You talk about that in the book too,
because sometimes even what the word evening, you're you feel
good about your drive, You're doing it for the right reasons.
It's like you're you're writing, it's still there's sometimes that
insatiability that keeps pushing you past the point where it
(31:44):
is it is a virtuous and just endeavor. So can
we talk about that the word Yeah, I think that's
sort of the paradox. And you see this with athletes
a lot. It's like, what makes someone a champion. Is
there relentless, insatiable thirst for improvement, for getting better, for
not being satisfied, Which is a strength, But the weakness,
(32:07):
the vulnerability of that strategy is like even as they're
even as the confetti is coming down, because they've won
the championship, they can't be proud of themselves, they can't
be grateful, they can't appreciate it. All they can think
about is what's next. And I think we kind of,
you know, as a society, we encourage that as well,
Like I'm sure you guys get this all the time,
(32:28):
like people, oh, you know of listening to the show,
I'm what you're doing so awesome? You have all this
stuff going on. You're like, yes, it's great, and then go,
so what's next for you? You know, like, oh my god,
it's a horrible question. It's horrible. And I think it
encapsulates our inability to be satisfied. And I don't think
(32:50):
we do great things thinking about what's next. I think
we do great things when we sort of kind of
um follow our hearts and like I was saying, when
we come from a place of fullness, not from craving.
So on the one hand, we understand why it's beneficial
to human to to the human species that were never satisfied.
That's why life keeps getting better and we keep having
(33:12):
these technological advancements and all that. But at the same time,
we've got to realize at the individual level, if you're impossible,
like epicurious. Also the sign he said, um uh, nothing
is enough for the person who enough is too little.
And and when you look at history there's there's no
conqueror whoever. You know, finally got to that last country
(33:34):
and then thought, I did it. Now I can retire, right,
Like we always we invent the next thing. It's funny.
I was reading a story, I think in the Times
about this Kenyan marathon or who Nike works with, and
he's the greatest marathon has ever lived. Name is escaping
me mind. It's very difficult to pronounce. But he's a
very brilliant We've all watched him run and win, and
(33:57):
he wanted Nike wanted to help him break two hours,
so they arranged this utterly atypical marathon situation for him.
Um so he wouldn't be running under normal circumstances. So
it's not a real record in a marathon because it
can't be recreated in an actual race. Um. But they
created these ideal conditions and he made it. I think
(34:19):
he was like forty seconds under two hours, and he
ran with all of these other famous marathon eers who
helped him keep pace. UM. And it was just such
a beautiful story because he It's not that he wasn't
motivated and Nike wasn't particularly motivated by wanting to break
(34:40):
the record because it's not going to be a real record,
it wasn't a real race. He wanted to show it
could be done so that the runners who come after
him know that it is humanly possible to do this
and aim for it. It was just it was I mean,
I'm I'm no kind of a lead athlete, and I
just felt so moved by that. On some level, I
(35:02):
think he's he's a he's a fascinating, uh person, And
and what I think is interesting what I'm I'm a
bit of a runner myself, but I always try to
remind myself as like, so, you know, you go for
a run and you see how the people pass you
or you pass other people. UM. The mind is always
trying to compare ourselves to other people to sort of
create competition, and what you have to realize is that
(35:24):
we're all running our own different races. And it takes
there's a sort of a quiet confidence, in a stillness
that comes from realizing that you're not racing against anyone else,
You're only racing against yourself. You're racing against your own capacities.
And that if you're if you're trying to do things
to set records or to win the most of this,
or to make the most of that, I think you're
(35:46):
doing it for the wrong reasons. If you're doing it
because you're trying to see, can you realize what you're
capable of, that's much better. And when I really think
is fascinating about him. He's talked about this. He he
talks about how hard it is to train, that he
he almost never runs at a percent capacity, how much,
(36:06):
how like he's like, I love running, I'm trying to
do this for a long time. That actually he's actually
required to be very disciplined about his self discipline like
if left to his own devices, he'd run really fast
all the time, he'd get hurt, he'd burn himself out,
and that to do these sort of big things that
he wants to do he has to have that practice,
that moderation of going. Know, today I'm only running at
(36:28):
se and I have to stay you know, like I
have to sort of put these limits around myself. So
because at the end of the day, like the good
life is when I'm after I don't want to I
don't want to have a short career. I want to
have a long career, and I wanna have a happy career,
and I wanna want to be intentional about it as
part of the good life. And it's something that you
touch on in your book. You mentioned the need for
(36:50):
an acknowledgement of a higher power. Why is that important?
I think like the blunt is level. It's like you
it's not that you have to believe in God, it's
just you can't believe that you're a god, you know.
I think that's sort of unfortunately, this the modern condition
for a lot of people. We've as we've knocked away
(37:13):
all these old institutions, whether it was country or church
or um, you know, a trade or a craft, We've
become more and more the centers of our own universe.
And this is I think a precarious place to live.
It's a place that encourages ego that I think encourages
(37:33):
some of the hedonism we're talking about. And so, you know,
and and I grew up religious. I sort of became
an atheist as I've as I've studied and written about
this and and and really looked at it philosophically, I
feel like I've moved more towards the place of of
being agnostic, and that I have the humility to say
that I don't know, like and how could I know? Right?
(37:53):
And And I would have thought that that that place
of doubt would have made me feel more in cure,
but in fact it was the opposite. It's sort of
opened up a realm of possibility for me. But the Stoics,
although they did talk about the about God and the
gods um, I think they looked at it more like
(38:15):
the universe is so vast and complex and so much
larger than us that to to to sort of meditate
on that and think about it was really important as
far as sort of quieting the mind, you know, helping
reduce your desire to control and and you know, sort
(38:36):
of be the center of everything and just help you
practice some acceptance. Uh. And I think there's a lot
of sort of grace and quiet and acceptance that not
not thinking you can control everything. I love that. Thank you.
I definitely know I can't control anything. We loved having
you today. Thank you so much for being on our podcast.
(38:57):
Thank you guys for having me. This is awesome to
our listeners. Get Ryan's latest book, Stillness Is the Key,
and follow him at Ryan Holiday um and subscribe to
his writing too at Ryan Holiday dot net and or
The Daily Stoic dot com. I love that, UM. I
think I do need a dose of this daily. The
(39:19):
Road to Somewhere is recorded in New York City. Make
sure to share, subscribe, rate, and review us. We would
love to hear from you. Where are you on your journey?
Connect with us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter at pod
to Somewhere and email us at road to Somewhere at
I heart media dot com. Special thanks to Alicia Haywood,
(39:40):
are incredible producer. Thanks everyone for joining us on the
Road to Somewhere. We're available on the I Heart Radio app,
on Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcasts.
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