Cracking Wise with Sage

This warm-flavored herb has been highly regarded as a seasoning and a medicine throughout the ages. Anney and Lauren explore the history, culture, and science of sage.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:08):
Hello, and welcome to Favor production of I Heart Radio.
I'm Annie Reese and I'm Lauren Vogelbaum. And today we're
talking about Sage. Yes, and as we record this, this
is our first recording of so Happy New Year, Yes,
Happy New Year. Welcome, welcome back, Welcome, welcome back, Annie back,

(00:30):
thank you. I mean you know here, but I guess
welcome back to the virtual podcasting space. Yeah. Yeah, it
feels it feels like it's been a really long time,
as everything from the past year or so has felt so. Yes. Yes,

(00:51):
but happy New Year nonetheless. And this was your your
suggestion and it made me giggle. But why did you
choose Sage? Well, okay, all right. Um, I was thinking
about Sage because I was still in the kind of
mindset of holiday cooking. Um. So I was thinking about

(01:12):
some of those good, uh, savory herbs that you get
to use that are just so like warming and nice. Um.
And and I remembered, um, after about five minutes of
preliminary research that we had already done Bay Leaves, and
so I switched to Sage, which I Bai leaves. I

(01:35):
still find fascinating even after we've done the episode on
and I find them very interesting. Oh yeah, yeah, but okay,
but so why did it? Why did it make you giggle?
I thought you were suggesting it because people burn it
in in the new year. Oh oh, is that it? Okay,
We're going to talk about that later. And I are

(01:57):
have some pretty strong opinions about I mean, okay, I'm
getting ahead of myself. Do what you want, be respectful. Um,
but that's no. No, we're ostensibly a food show. I
was talking about the culinary uses for it. Yeah. Well
I knew you would stick to that. I just thought
that's why it was on your mind. I Unfortunately, my

(02:19):
friend in high school she dated this guy named Sage
that I really couldn't stand. So now every time of
your stage I just have like the knee jerk angry reaction.
So that's really unfortunate, because I actually love the flavor
of sage. I don't use it that much at all,
but when I do, I'm always like, oh yeah, right,

(02:40):
oh I love it. Oh. I haven't made like a
good brown better sage situation in a long time. Yeah,
I think so. That sounds delicious. Okay, Well, now that
I'm thinking about that, let's get through our question. Yes, sage.

(03:01):
What is it? Well, Uh, sage is a type of
herb that we love because it's kind of stinky. Um.
It's in a it's in the mint family. It is,
in fact the most prolific member of the mint family. Um.
They're like nine species of sage Um, lots of types,
but generally speaking, the one that you will find sold
as a culinary herb is common sage. Botanical name Salvia

(03:25):
a fish analis um, which is a small shrubby plant.
It can grow up to a couple of feet like
less than a meter tall, has leaves that are long
and pebbly and kind of soft or fuzzy to the
touch because that's where that's where it stores it's it's
it's oils right on the surface of the leaves, and
they stick to the leaves because these tiny little hairs
um that are also nice and fuzzy anyway. Um, those

(03:47):
leaves can be uh silvery gray to green to yellow
to purplish in color. Um. They bloom with stalks of
these pretty little pink to purple flowers that um, when pollinated,
will produce basically just seeds that you can use to
grow more sage. It's not really a fruiting kind of situation. Um.
But yeah, it's a it's a temperate climate perennial plant,
meaning it will come back year after year. Their most

(04:09):
varieties will um as long as you don't over harvest
its leaves and um, it doesn't get like two two cold.
It doesn't want it to be that cold anyway. Um.
The flavor can vary a bit um, but it's generally
a warm earth the mildly bitter kind of vibe with
notes of like citrus and pine and camphor. Um. And

(04:30):
the dried stuff does tend to be more bitter than
the fresh, the fresh being a little bit more bright. Um.
But yeah, yeah, it's common in Mediterranean style sausages and
holiday stuffings. Um, but can be and is used with
many meats in different sauces. Uh as the the aforementioned

(04:51):
brown butter thing. Man, you brown some butter and then um,
which means that you separate out the sugars um from
the fats, and then you kind of toast the sugars
and then you fry sage leaves that hot oil. Oh
it's so good. Yeah that sounds amazing. I think I
actually have had that. Yeah, Yeah, it's it's pretty common

(05:15):
as a topping for um, for like nilki or um
or some kinds of ravioli stuff like that. Yeah, oh,
go look up, go look up a recipe and do
it right now. I just ate and I'm so hungry
thinking about it. Yeah, I actually didn't. So this one
was an interesting one to search because sage also means wise,

(05:37):
and a ton of companies have used it in their
name because of yes. And then also yes, some people
are named sage. And then all the results I was
getting was for since Thanksgiving and Christmas did just happen?
Was for like turkey recipes where you use sage, And
so it took a lot of sifting to get to

(05:58):
the Yeah. Yeah, those that sometimes sometimes google food is
is more difficult than others. Oh yes, but okay not not.
The companies are the people we're talking about, Sage the
food product. What about the nutrition, Well, you're usually not

(06:21):
really eating enough of it to like really make an
impact either way. Even among herbs, sage is known for
having the sort of of strength of flavor where a
little bit goes quite a long way. Um. But medicinally,
sage has been used for forever, essentially for the treatment
of just all kinds of things UM, and research has

(06:43):
shown that of the twenty eight or so compounds that
are frequently found in various varieties of common sage UM,
several have potentially beneficial properties UM, including antioxidant, anti viral, antibacterial, antifungal,
anti inflammatory, anti two were anti diabetic and pro digestive effects.

(07:04):
There's even some evidence that UM that sage can help
treat Alzheimer's because it can inhibit this one enzyme in
the brain that that essentially MUCKs around with one of
our important neurotransmitter compounds. So by inhibiting that inhibitor, UH,
your your your brain works better. UM. I'm really simplifying.

(07:29):
This is an extreme simplification. UM. I mean that being said,
you know, like don't don't go like snorting sage or
anything like that to get these effects. UM. Maybe maybe
make some tea out of it incorporated in your diet.
UM look into look into essential oils and stuff like

(07:51):
that if you're interested in it. UM. I will say
that the common sage taken in high doses can be
harmful because if it's relatively high concentration of UM do
jone UM, which can cause stuff like seizures. So that's
bad times so um so. In essence, as with everything,
human bodies are complicated. More research is necessary, and before

(08:15):
taking medicinal doses of dang anything, consult someone who is
aware of medicine more than we are. Literally anyone literally
a medical profession. Both are good, double get both points
of view. Oh man, the first time we get to

(08:37):
say our slugan you know, hey, also, common sage sounds
like a non playable character you'd interact with in D
and D common sage. Tell me that's not that doesn't
sound like that, right right? This is not This is
not like a high level sage. This is not you know, uh,

(09:01):
it's a common sage. So your your results are hit
or miss with this. This person or gnome could be anything, hey,
right right? Gnomes are people to this is This is
what bothers me about the nomenclature no pun intended of
dungeons and dragons. Well that's good to know, because I

(09:23):
actually get all caught up in the like can I
say people? And what does that involve? What I'm trying
to describe things? So I'm glad you feel that way.
I do. I do, as as long as you don't
say humans. Um I think you're okay, okay, I think
that's my opinion. I we can get into the linguistics
often in some other time. Fine, Lauren, So, sage has

(09:50):
a very long and storied history. Oh yes it does, um,
And we are going to get into that as soon
as we get back from a quick break for a
word from our sponsor, and we're back, Thank you, sponsor, Yes,

(10:10):
thank you. So. Yes, sage has quite a long history.
I could not find an exact date of just how long,
but it's long, it is, it's long. Historians suspect it
originated in the Mediterranean and Asia minor Um, which is
the Asian area of modern day Turkey, and one of
the first known recorded mentions of stage goes back to

(10:33):
b C. Crete and yeah, from the jump. Humans believed
that sage could do all kinds of things. It had
all these healing properties. The ancient Romans prized sage so
highly that they thought it was worthy of the god
Jupiter himself, who was like the top you know. Yeah, yeah,
that's that's the that's the Zeus, Yeah, exactly. And they

(10:58):
believed it had all sorts of beneficial medicinal properties, from
improving memory, senses and In mythology, it was frequently depicted
as granting increased mental capacity. One thing I read suggested
that the ancient Romans even had ceremonial requirements for collecting sage,
like the collector had to wear clean clothes, cut with
a knife that was not iron. And perhaps even uh

(11:22):
collecting stage called for a food sacrifice. Yeah. Traditional Chinese
medicine prescribed it for a plethora of elements too, and
the ancient Egyptians might have used it for fertility. Historically,
I guess wealthy women also used it as a sort
of way to freshen up, as they say, which was

(11:43):
a phrase that confused me a lot as a child,
But now I think I understand what are they talking
about freshen up. In fact, sage was so closely associated
with healing. The name self comes from the Latin word
to save our to heal salvo um. And this might

(12:06):
might be a reference to the Christian tale of the
Holy Families. Dangerous escaped to Egypt just when they were
almost discovered by enemy soldiers, a thicket of sage provided
them cover and saved them. Yeah. Maybe um stage was
also used for food, though, particularly seasoning meats and preserving

(12:29):
meat too. Uh, but really this like medicinal thread is Oh,
it's just so strong. Throughout history, some sources suggested if
you were looking to cure lethargy and or memory problems
during medieval times, you might be advised to dip the
back of your head in a mixture of wild cellery, St.
John's wort and sage. Uh. Sage itself was thought to

(12:51):
increase longevity, uh, ease grief, make you happier, and of
course allowed young women to see into the future to
learn who their husband would be. And according to a
few sources, a poem from the medieval work this learning
in Rule of Health went as follows, how can a
man die who grows sage in his garden? Wow? Pretty easily,

(13:15):
as it turns out. But oh harsh, Lauren s medieval poem. Um,
I don't agree. Yes, Can you imagine this person is
trying to do like a dramatic reading. You know, people

(13:37):
are snapping and you you just cut in, like pretty easily,
a good old medieval killjoy corner. Lauren just like just
like stands up in the back and goes you're wrong,
and you suck booge I've had that's in your ancestral history.

(14:00):
That's like a previous version of you. I'm you know,
I strongly suspect that you are correct. I can't. I
know that I got this cantankerous nous honestly from both
sides of my family. So well, you're heckling. The hecklic
of your ancestors didn't seem to affect a lot of people,

(14:22):
because this trust in stages healing qualities even extended to
a preventative for the black plague. Uh. It may have
also been planted on graves in England. Um. I heard
that that's still commonly, not commonly, but sometimes practiced in
rural England. So if any listeners know this was sort

(14:42):
of you know, well, I would put it in the
category of I can't confirm it is sort of sounds
like a legend to me, but um, if someone can,
that'd be great. Uh. And some English old wives tales
that claim that stage grows best in homes where the
women dominate. This is the phrase that used, which, according
to another tradition, is the German by sage plants planted

(15:05):
by newly wed bride and grooms and whichever flourishes the
one planted by the bride or the groom. That person
is the dominant one in the household. Again, if anyone
could confirm if this is true, if this is an
old wives tale, I would love to hear it. Yes.
Emperor Charlemagne decreed in the ninth century that stage should

(15:27):
be grown in the gardens of imperial estates, and around
the same time Walafrid Strabo's poem Hortulis mentioned sage. Quote
there in the very front glows sage, sweetly scented. It
deserves to grow green forever, enjoying perpetual youth, for it
is rich in virtue and good to mix in a
portion of proven use for many a human ailment. Uh.

(15:50):
And yeah, it was so prized it was. It could
get up to it could be valued pretty highly, and
its trade value reached a lot too. So people were really,
they were really into stage. They thought it could cure
a lot um. In English botanists John Gerard's work Gerard's
Herbal he prescribed stage for curing wounds for the ill,
with quote bruised insides for treatment of syphilis, swelling reduction ulcers,

(16:14):
to cause perspiration to ease trembling for those coughing up blood,
coughing in general, side pain, sneak bites, purging blood, strengthening SNeW,
brightening the skin, and to remove head flim when placed
in the nostrils. According to him, ancient Romans called Stage
the holy herb, and pregnant women concerned about miscarriages would
eat sage to quote, closet the matrix and maketh them fruitful,

(16:38):
as it retaineth the birth. And when mixed with honey, rosemary,
and white wine, it was recommended as an excellent water
to wash the secret parts of man or woman. That
is a quote, yes, and that's not all. Nicholas Culpeppers
sixty three work. Culpepper's Complete herbal recommended the leaves and
branches of Stage for inducing your after miss carriages, for

(17:01):
expelling the child and turning your hair black or removing
dark color from hair. I found mixed like. I read
the thing, and I thought it meant like if you
had dark hair and get rid of your dark hair.
But apparently I might have misinterpreted it, and I there
would give you dark hair get rid of your dark
hair one or the other. Yes, it would be very

(17:23):
upsetting if you got the opposite result, although I have
my doubt. Sage was really playing role in that. Yeah.
Probably again probably not sorry sorry nick uh. He also
called four stage to treat ulcers, stopping bleeding in the
coughing of blood during tuberculosis, for coughs in general, to
uh dysentery killing, parasitic worms, insect stings, hankerstres intestinal pain

(17:47):
caused by gas, and a mixture of sage and a
few other things for fasting. And this is like a
condensed list for both of these. Um. Yeah. Yeah, they
really believed they were super into it. Yeah, And which
is why it is so interesting that this ongoing research
is finding things like like like that stage may be
able to help help relax muscles in the gut thus um,

(18:12):
thus preventing things like pain caused by gas. Um. So
it's wild. I mean, you know, it's it's it's not
that wild. It's it's it's not that wild. Actually, when
you think about it, that humans have tried a thing
for thousands upon thousands of years um and over repeated
relative success. They were like, oh yeah, sure, use it

(18:32):
for that. Um. Although you know, as as with anything, um,
humans get all kinds of ideas about stuff. So you've
gotta you gotta pick and choose what you're gonna believe
with a little bit of a cynical eye. Humans get
all kinds of ideas, but all kinds of stuff, so
use your cynical evaluate. Stage arrived in North America with

(18:58):
European colonists in the sixteenth century, where it was popular
in all kinds of things, and it remained among the
most popular herbs until World War Two. I tried to
figure out because I know there was sage here already,
but it's not the sage we're talking about. I'm pretty
sure I think it was a different species. Yeah, yes,
so uh. Native Americans use sage for treating skin sores
and to purify in a process the English later dubbed

(19:21):
as smudging. So according to ethnobotanist and indigenous writer Russell
and La Pierre Quote, smudging is the process of burning
dried plants or other natural elements and then using the
smoke to cleanse themselves. Objects are even places. Usually the
dried plants are burned or a hot coal placed in
a large shell are on the ground. The person places
both hands over the smoke, takes the smoke within her

(19:44):
hands and beginning with her head and continuing downward washes
her entire body with the smoke. So, as we alluded
to at the top, the process of doing this with sage,
of burning sage to cleanse and purify has become more mainstream.
And as that has happened, it has sparked a whole
conversation about cultural appropriation, commercialization, and respect, especially given the

(20:09):
history of persecution that Native Americans faced for things like
burning stage. Uh. Yep, yeah, so okay, So so y'all
might remember when smudging um became pretty popular on like
Instagram and stuff. Um as of nineteen and okay, let's

(20:30):
let's let's let's back up. Prior to that, UM, there
are times in the United States where it has been
literally illegal for Indigenous peoples to engage in religious and
other cultural practices. UM. It was, in fact, for almost
a hundred years literally illegal. UM. So going going way back, UM,

(20:51):
conversion to Christianity was encouraged UM as part of like
the colonists and later the United States governments, well a
deep racism um but be like desire for the lands
that native peoples were inhabiting. But in eight three um
uh it was codified in the creation of the Courts

(21:12):
of Indian offenses. And these were these federally run organizations
that enforced codes of conduct on reservations that prevented the
practice or even the encouragement of the practice of traditional dances, feasts,
and other cultural acts. Um. Like, leaders and practitioners were imprisoned,

(21:34):
food rations were withheld from communities. And now, if you're thinking,
wait a minute, what about the First Amendment? Um, Remember
that Native Americans weren't considered citizens until nineteen twenty four UM.
And it furthermore took until nineteen seventy eight for a
bill specifically preventing religious persecution of Native people's to be passed.

(21:58):
Um end. So, when smudging became like instant trendy around
um the pretty silvery toned type of sage called white
sage that grows specifically in southern California and has been
a part of these traditional ceremonies and medicines for centuries,

(22:20):
it began to be over harvested and harvested incorrectly by
non native people who were making a profit off of
it and wrecking the ecosystem and making it harder for
Native people to access the plant while they were making
that profit. UM. So so UM. You know, if if

(22:45):
you if you like burning sage, UM, you know burns
some it smells nice. Probably don't call it smudging UM.
And and generally yeah, I don't know. Just just try
not to be trying not to damage the planet. UM,
try not to be rude two people who we have

(23:09):
already been so rude to for so many centuries. UM. Yeah,
it's it's it's it is that whole conversation about UM,
about appreciation versus appropriation. So you know, like if you're
if you're going, if you really respect UM and are
interested in and UM and want to learn more about

(23:30):
and in some way participate in UM indigenous cultural practices,
then go to indigenous learning centers. UM. You know, find
information from the people's who who know about it and
who are willing to to talk about it and and
teach about it UM by products from those people. Don't

(23:51):
go to urban outfitters or whatever it is and buy
something that has a native print because it's probably not.
And b um, that's just someone make money off of
people who have had enough grief. UM, we were talking
about sage. We were well. This trend also prompted a

(24:13):
few studies into potential health benefits of burning sage. Yeah,
so I'm like the killjoy corner continues. The main study
that gets referenced about how burning sage can remove of
bacteria from a room's air for multiple days. Um, that

(24:33):
study didn't actually burn sage. It was a mixture of
other herbs and woods and stuff. Um so so that's fun.
Um uh. That being said, again, some of these, um,
some of these compounds that are found in sage do
have some of these um antimicrobial and etcetera properties. So

(25:00):
I don't know, maybe um arn it if you like it, folks. Um.
And you know, this is one of those episodes where I,
in fact, did have to keep reminding myself we are
a food show. Yeah, so I did. I want to
put in here that it's worth noting smoke cleansing in

(25:22):
general has been practiced by various cultures for various reasons
for thousands of years. So oh yeah, cultures all over
the world have been using herbs and woods and what
have you for for all of these different purposes. Um,
for for as long as we've had fire and also herbs.
Um so uh but but but yes, uh food show. Yes. Yes.

(25:48):
In research out of the UK found that products being
sold in local markets labeled sage and and oregano, where
both frequently heavily adulterated UM with other cheaper plant leaves
like olive leaves. UM. Nothing blatantly unsafe, um, but it

(26:08):
means that consumers are getting less like culinary bang for
their buck. And of course accuracy and food labeling is
important for folks with sensitivities and allergies. UM. To take
away from the research is basically that food fraud exists, um,
and that you should buy from trusted brands perhaps instead
of like global online retailers. Um. That would be the

(26:29):
sage thing to do. Oh, I see what you did there.
We had to do it at least once you wait
to vary ends when we're talking about food fraud. That's right,
what I understand. It's a really big problem with spices
in general. Yeah yeah, spices, UM and fishing I believe

(26:50):
are the two the two biggest categories of food fraud.
But I haven't looked into it for half a minute,
so I could be wrong. Um. Oh I feel like
I feel we went places on this one. Um. Yeah
we did, we did, um, and it is it is
so it is so interesting to me that um, these
these ties between between food and medicine, and I really

(27:12):
am looking forward to UM to further research into into Yeah,
how we can how we can use these wonderful tasty products,
uh to uh to do cool stuff me too, fascinating,
all fascinating stuff, human body, strange, so weird, so weird,

(27:35):
so weird. Well, hopefully we'll get to maybe we'll get
to revisit this one in the future. But that's what
we have to say about stage four now for now. Yes,
and we do have some listener mail for you, but
first we have one more quick break for word for
our sponsor, and we're back. Thank you, sponsor, Yes, thank you,

(28:05):
and we're back with I was gonna do an obi
Wan Kenobi impression because I'm actually really good at obi
Wan Kenobi. But then I was like, how do I
communicate obi Wan Kenobi via Skype in a way that's
very on the spot, and there's not a lot of

(28:26):
time to communicate. And then I realized I'm in my
cosplay closet and I do have JETI robe in here,
because of course I do. Of course, would have required
a costume change that might be the next evolution this
whole thing. Wow. Yeah, yeah, And then we really would
have to start recording them. If they're going to involve

(28:46):
costume changes. That's that's the whole thing. Um doesn't take
to record an episode, well, it would take only forty minutes,
but an he's going to do a fifteen minute cost
change for the listener mail. So we tried to stopper,
but she wouldn't be stopped. She couldn't be I feel

(29:10):
like Obi one is a very sage. He made some
questionable choices, but he's got he does, he does for sure,
for sure. Now I'm just now, I'm just thinking about
Obi one. Okay, alright back, let's have a conversation about
that at a later date, because I got a lot
of thoughts that in the Psychology of Darth Vader. But okay,

(29:30):
um Luna wrote, I just listened to the classic rerun
episode on gingerbread and gingerbread houses, and I felt like
I had to write in. See, none of my family
was really ever into desserts or sweet stuff, so the
idea of actually eating any part of the gingerbread houses
after they were made was entirely out of the question.
We also had a lot of bug problems, so leaving

(29:50):
them out as decorations also wouldn't be good to say,
would just attract ants. Instead, we did something a little
bit unique. Her annual family gen Your bread House building
competition was concluded with us bringing all our new creations
to the backyard and blowing them up spectacularly with various fireworks.
We would sometimes specifically build certain parts weaker so they

(30:12):
would fly off more dramatically, like by barely attaching the roof,
or by also hiding a little gingerbread person into the
inside so they'd get thrown into the air as well.
We'd use long strings of firecrackers, fountain fireworks, and even
the big mortar fireworks for different effects. And then it's
been the next few days cleaning up charred remains of
our gingerbread homes and folks out of our backyards. Honestly,

(30:35):
it was probably hugely dangerous, but it was under adult
supervision and at the suggestion of my parents, so maybe
it wasn't as dramatic as I'm remembering. Either way, it
definitely made for unique Christmas tradition and a lot of
fun memories. Wow, that's great, I want to do that.
I've never blown up a gingerbread house before, and now

(30:57):
I'm thinking, what was that even doing? I mean right, yeah,
and furthermore, right, you know, like like like usually when
you're building a gingerbread house here, you're really trying to
shore up the structural integrity UM for for for a
long lasting architecture. Um But but this is a whole
different This is a whole different ginger ball game. Yeah. Yeah,

(31:23):
trying to make a weaker I'm into it. The better
the explosion, Yeah, I got it. Yeah, huh. Cal wrote
I heard the Mystery of the Giant Lemons at the
end of the Olive episode last week, and it jogged
my memory in very delicious ways. I have some secondhand
experience with Southern Italian lemons and firsthand experience with homemade

(31:47):
lemon Cello thanks to a very cool ex girlfriend who
happened to be from eastia um An Island just off
the coast of Naples that is part of the home
region of lemon Cello. I remember her describing the lemons
as much large and I think melaware than standard grocery
store lemons, and that lemon Cello made with standard small
lemons just isn't the same. Perhaps some transplanted lemons from

(32:10):
the Unmalfi Coast are the answer to the Mystery of
the Prodigious Citrus. Oh maybe maybe I also think the
Mystery of the Prodigious Citrus is a book that needs
to be written. Yeah. Yeah, I'm shocked that it wasn't
from the Series of Unfortunate Events. Yes, I was going

(32:33):
more Agatha Christie, but that probably makes more more sense. Yeah,
it's sort of an overlapping. That's a Yeah, it's a
tight ven diagram of titles. Well, it's out there for
any listeners looking for a title name and a mystery
about a lemon. Then there you go. A gift to you. Yes, yes,

(32:55):
m Thanks so much to both of those listeners for
writing in. If you'd like to write to as, you
can our emails Hello at savor pod dot com. We're
also on social media. You can find us on Facebook, Twitter,
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Savor is a production of I Heart Radio. For more
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(33:16):
Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to
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hope that lots more good things are coming your way.