Curling Up with Dried Bonito Flakes

This ultra-savory seasoning and soup-starter has months (or years!) of work behind every flake. Anney and Lauren smoke out the science and history of katsuobushi (i.e., dried bonito flakes).

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:07):
Hello, and welcome to Savor production of I Heart Radio.
I'm Annie Reese and I'm Lauren Vocal Bam, and today
we have an episode for you about dried Benito flakes.
Just a big old heart emoji from me. Yes, yes, yes, Uh.
Any particular reason you want to do this episode, I

(00:28):
do not remember. I chose it like a couple of
weeks ago, which in Lauren time is about twenty nine
years under normal circumstances. And I've also just gone through
a very stressful moving situation. Um so so I'm coming
to you for the first time from a new studio
set up. And also, yeah, I have no memory of

(00:51):
anything that happened before, like yesterday, So okay, you know
that makes sense. I'm remember you said the Bacon of
the Sea when you suggested it, which I thought was very,
very funny. I hadn't heard that one before. Yeah, but
it's appropriate. It's so good. Yes, I will say after

(01:16):
you suggested this, because I think when I opened this
outline yesterday it said I hadn't looked at it for
fifteen days, so this one is a bit older than
we normally do. And I ordered after I did it,
I ordered some dried bonita flakes and also combo and
I'm going to make my own dashi, very very very excited,

(01:40):
so excited, and I do want to do an episode
on camboo now. After doing this episode, oh heck yeah absolutely,
which involved a lot of watching a very beautifully done
short documentaries, I was like, oh, yes, all right, no,
I want to talk about this. Um. I do remember
having dried bonita flakes all the time when I was

(02:00):
in Japan. I had it on ocono miaki, on taco yaki,
on noodles, on pizza. I've been having a lot and
fear coca lately. Oh yeah, the gravings, the gravings, yeah
I have um right, yeah, I love it as a
as a topping on all those good pub dishes. Um I.

(02:24):
It is the key ingredient that I look for when
I look for for a cake. Um. And it's just
it's just so especially now that the weather is turned
um and it's a little bit chilly in the mornings,
I'm just like, yep, that is I would like to
drink my weight in dashi. Bro And yes, agreed. I

(02:46):
definitely was like, oh man, what should I have for
lunch today? And just went for a packet of instant
ramen because it contained dashi. So yes, I support this,
and I'm also the same way links so I'm in
full soup seasoned swing. Yeah. Also, we're going to reiterate

(03:08):
this throughout the episode, but you can see our episodes
on mis um and on skip jack tuna, yeah for
more information on this one. Absolutely, yeah, right, and we're
going to be grazing across a few a few facts
from from those episodes, but right, definitely see those for
more information. Yes, So I guess this brings us to

(03:31):
our question, yep, dried bonito flakes what are they? Well?
Dry Benita flakes are a type of savory seasoning that
consists of tissue thin shavings of preserved, dried filets of fish,
specifically of skip jack tuna. The preservation process here involves

(03:55):
smoking and sometimes fermenting the filets, which also adds this
lovely depth of flavor. Being so preserved and dried means
that the flakes are fairly shelf stable. And I say flakes, um,
and they can come in like a little little flake
format um, but the good ones are more like a
translucent ribbons pinkish cream in color, up to an inch

(04:17):
or so wide, like a couple of centimeters, and these
are used to create broth or in dishes or as
a garnish. And they're smoky and sometimes a little funky
and not very fishy actually, more like clean ocean e
in flavor. Just the essence of savory though. Um, if

(04:38):
you've ever had like really good fresh tuna, it's like
someone condensed a whole steak of that into just a
gossamer ribbon and then added a touch of smoke and funk.
It's like beautiful. Oh mommy pencil shavings. Um, it's it's
so delicate, but like warming to the bones. Um, it's

(04:58):
like being warm on a cold morning. Ah yeah yeah,
but okay, so I I kind of went through a
lot of stuff there, so let's break this down. Um.
Skip Jack tuna also called benito or aku in Hawaii
um or cuts in Japan. Skip Jack tuna are smallish

(05:20):
tuna that are pretty common, pretty heavily fished, but not
to a concerning level in most places. And they're used
in canned tuna and also in fresh applications, um, raw
in things like sushi and poquet um or cooked plus
in dried applications. Like we're talking about today. The meat
of skip jack tuna is a deep scarlet red and

(05:41):
slightly translucent when raw, and it will cook to an
opaque like gray. UM. It's firm and distinctly tuna. Eat
it tastes like savory and meaty and a little briny
when it's raw. It does get a little bit fishy
when it's cooked. But today we're not talking about raw
or cooked skip jack tuna. UM. Well, okay, we're starting
with raw because that's how you know, most meat starts generally,

(06:05):
But then we are going on like a multi week
to multi month preservation journey. UM. This is a traditional
process in Japan where the end product is called katsubushi,
and specific methods can vary by region or by producer UM,
but basically, you take your fish and you cut it

(06:28):
into filets, then simmer those for a couple of hours,
and this is working to um to sterilize the meat
and also to like firm up um or coagulate some
of the proteins so that they hold on to some
of the flavor compounds that you're gonna want in your
finished product. Through the rest of this process. Then you

(06:48):
debone the filet's um and smoke them low and slow,
preferably over a hard wood like oak, on and off
for probably an entire month. And at that point what
you're looking at is a brick of fish, kind of
brownish on the outside and and like ruby pink to
amber on the inside, and still a little bit translucent.

(07:10):
And you can stop there. At that point the filet
is called an ottabushi, and this is used to make
a less expensive type of benito flake called on agatso
or or you can ferment the filets mold poop. I
don't get to say mold poop that often. Yeah, that's

(07:31):
a that's a rare one fighting for us, right, it's
so exciting, okay, alright, alright, um, so, so what happens
here is that you you trim the dried filets and
spram down with a friendly mold culture um, similar to
how some wheels of cheese are treated, except unlike with cheese, UM,

(07:51):
you spray them and then uh and then dry the
filets in the sun for a couple of days before
storing them away for a couple of weeks and then
repeat that process for at least three months or like
maybe a couple of years. Either or either you know
whatever you're into yea. And what's happening here is that
the mold culture, made up mostly of various strains from

(08:13):
the genus Aspergillis, is coating the surface of the filet
and doing just a bunch of work there. Um. It's
keeping off unfriendly microbes and drawing out and consuming moisture
from the meat, helping it dry more. It's also eating
some of the fats and proteins in the meat and

(08:34):
pooping flavor, breaking down unwanted flavors basically and enhancing positive
flavors in the final product. Uh. And also by breaking
down some of the fats, it's kind of like pre
clarifying any broth that you're going to make later with
the finished product. Uh. So cool mold poop, y'all. Mm

(08:55):
hm m m uh. This product is called han kari
bushy um, and it's considered like the ultimate in katzo bushy. Yeah.
The dried and treated filets and in whichever way they're treated,
can be shaved down in different size grades for different purposes.

(09:17):
I think the shavings are properly called Kazooti bushy, after
the device that's traditionally used to make the shavings anyway. Yeah,
these days the product is often sold packaged in flake form,
and in traditional Japanese cuisine, it's like a super base
ingredient because right, it's one of the two things along
with kambu, which is a seaweed product that go into

(09:40):
making dashi, which is a broth that is pretty omnipresent
in soups and stews and sauces. Benina flakes are also
used in fillings and toppings for rice in in on
geary and as an ingredient in potycake, which is like
a stuff that you sprinkle on rice if you're unfamiliar.
And uh, big thin shavings are served on pub food

(10:03):
like okonami yaki and taco yaki, and because the shavings
are so thin, the waves of heat that come off
of the hot food make the shavings kind of sway
or dance like like little like little flames. Yeah, I'm
thinking about that for some Halloween themed foods, shrivel and

(10:27):
like spark almost like there's options, there's options. Yeah, yeah. Um,
okonomiyaki and taka yaki are are two very very savory,
very um just pleasing foods. If you've if you've never
had them. Okama yaki it's sort of like a like
a omelet kind of thing, and taka yaki are sort

(10:51):
of like little hush puppies that have this a little
piece of octopus inside. Um, you know, like very like
soft and super like savory salty, so good um, comfort food,
very comfort food, really enhanced by this this just savory
bomb that is of Benita shaving. And yeah, there are

(11:12):
just a bunch of different ways to produce cutso bushy um,
from the egg, from the exact cut of the fish
that you're using, to how much fat and skin is
left on for how long in the process, to the
exact preservation process, to the flaking process. Um. And people
have strong preferences, very personal, very nostalgia based, I think,

(11:37):
and for for different applications. Yeah. Yes, And like I said,
there are at least two free, short, very well done
documentaries that I watched about this, and we're going to
talk a little bit more about it in history section
about kind of the traditional processes of producing this. And
it's really fascinating. But yeah, people have they got their
strong opinions, which we love it. Well, what about the nutrition, Uh,

(12:01):
this is another seasoning type thing. That packs like a
lot of flavor for your caloric buck. Um, it's really
basically just protein, like a little bit of fat, a
little bit of sodium, as with any smoked product. Like
there's a little bit of concern about some of those

(12:22):
smoke molecules being bad for you. But um, but generally
it's it's fine. Yeah, it's food. Yeah, it's food. It's
got a lot of flavor in it for a little
so yeah. Yeah, uh. We do have some numbers for you,
a couple yeah, a couple um from numbers collected in

(12:43):
Japan catches an annual two hundred and fifty tons of
bonito fish, and I don't have more recent numbers, but
as of like two thousand eight, the three major production
areas of katsubushi, we're turning out some thirty two tons
per year. And although the use of it in households

(13:04):
and even some restaurants was going down, the production and
market for it were increasing because of the uptick in
the creation of convenience products like instant dashy and packaged
miso soup and ramen stuff like that. Also, Okay, I
couldn't find the actual record on Guinness's actual website. Um,

(13:29):
but it is commonly reported that kuts of Bushi holds
the record for the world's hardest food. Uh um and like,
look up a video of of one of the blocks
that these filets turned into, because a they're really like
like when they look really they look like a piece

(13:50):
of driftwood um when they start out, and then when
you shaved them down, it reveals this just gorgeous semi
translucent inti year that it looks like a like a
like a solid piece of of crystal. It's really interesting.
And it is so hard that like if you tap

(14:10):
on it it it has like almost like a metallic
ring to it. Um. And in Japanese knife maker and
general weirdo who makes knives out of all kinds of
different non metal substances, uh he yep, made a YouTube

(14:34):
video where he shaved a filet down into a knife. Wow,
it's pretty cool. Pretty cool. Yeah, yeah, definitely look it up.
It's uh you can see people just kind of hitting
it against things. Sound it makes doesn't have any give,
like zero give. It's a tough it's a tough sce

(14:57):
not easy to to produce aditionally. Yes, yes, yes, yes,
and we'll get into that in the history but before
we do that, we're going to get into a quick
break for a word from our sponsor, and we're back.

(15:19):
Thank you sponsor, Yes, thank you. Yes. And as mentioned,
please see our skip Jack Tune episode and our MISA
episode Misa episode for more. Yeah that one, Yeah, that one,
but I don't know what the other thing is. But anyway,
because they are very relevant to a lot of the
stuff we're talking about. And uh, I have a bunch
of similar stories that I kind of skimmed over because

(15:41):
we already talked about them in past episodes, So go
check those out if you haven't already. Um. And also, yes,
this is going to be fun with Japanese. Hopefully Lauren
will help me out if I struggle too hard. But
now you're on your own. I'm out to see as
they say, Oh okay, alright. So, because Japan is an island,

(16:05):
seafood has long been a staple in Japanese cuisine. Um.
While the historical record indicates that production of fermented dried
bonito began in earnest in the middle of the Edo
period in Japan, which took place between sixteen o three
and eighteen sixty eight, see um, it's definitely been going
on longer than that, but thus when things were really

(16:25):
starting to take off. Um. And part of that was
because during this time, the bonito fish was incredibly popular
in Japan. Uh. There's a famous hiku that was written
about the first bonito of the season in Japan. Um.
I know we've talked about it. I think we did
it in the skip Jack Tune episode. But there's this
whole hi ku about like, how you know it's that

(16:47):
time for the first bonito catch. What a wonderful time
it is? Um and Uh, this fish was sometimes you'd
as auspicious, which is something we also talked about in
that episode, I believe. So it makes sense that this
is when we see all kinds of uses for it
starting to proliferate in the written record. Um. But yeah,

(17:08):
the roots of dried bonito trace back much further, at
least a seven eighteen CE, when quote a seasoning made
from fish that has been boiled and dried hard was
mentioned in the Yuro Code, which was this administrative document. Um.
The fish in question varied based on the catch, so
it wasn't necessarily benito, but a lot of times it was.

(17:32):
Historians think that drying fish for food and sometimes boiling
it down to make dashi. Goes back centuries earlier than
even that. UM. It was a way to preserve the
fish during lean times and also a way to make
it safer to eat, though people didn't entirely know why. Yeah,
they just knew like it seemed to work. They just

(17:52):
didn't know exactly why. Yeah. Yeah, like with any preserved food,
we didn't really figure out microbiology until the eighteen undreds.
So yes, yes, indeed. Um. By six seventy four, the
method of drying this fish updated a bit to include
smoke drying UM. And there's a particular story that's popularly

(18:15):
told as to why it updated to that that I
believe we've mentioned before to um. I think it was
in that tuna episode, but here it is again in brief.
Yeah yeah, okay, So basically, in the sixteen hundreds, a
fisherman from what is now the Wakayama Prefecture named Jantaro
was shipwrecked in a storm and ended up in what

(18:36):
is now the Coachy Prefecture. He took a skip jack
tuna and smoked it over an open wood fire and
found that the taste was much improved. Thus, the smoke
dried skip jack tuna or attabushi was born. As the
story goes, Um again, that kind of just makes sense
to me that somebody would have discovered that, probably multiple

(18:57):
somebodies that at a time whatever whatever the smoking food
is kind of a thing, so exact, But this is
a story that is very very popularly told. Um. Whatever
the truth is, the technique was adopted across the country
around this time. And also of note, as we discussed
in our Miso episode, soups were extremely popular in Japan

(19:21):
at this time too, and and many of those soups
called for dashi made from boiling down bonita flakes. Um
Dashi was and in a lot of ways definitely still
is integral to Japanese cuisine and daily life, as you mentioned.
And I found a really cool article about it, tracing
the evolution of it, and I cannot wait to talk

(19:41):
about it more in depth. Oh cool, awesome m M.
Another development that took place sometime around seventeen seventy called
for growing mold on the smoke dry tuna. There are
also a handful of stories of out how this came about,

(20:01):
and a lot of them are very similar to the
sort of vague it was an accident, but weight. It's
good stories we frequently come across when we do these
history sections. Um So. One of these stories simply recounts
a merchant who, upon receiving a shipment of smoke dried
tuna that was growing mold on it, he tried it.

(20:23):
I guess he was like, I don't want to throw
it away. Found it was delicious, so he started to
purposely grow mold on his product. There you go, There
you go. Another story is pretty much the same. Um.
A dealer didn't want to throw out a warehouse full
of molded smoked tuna, so he tried it and decided
the mold actually enhanced the flavor. And I'm sure it

(20:44):
didn't hurt that he didn't have to throw out all
of that products. Um. But yeah, this whole thing using
fun guy for flavor or mold for flavor also has
a long history in Japanese cuisine, so it makes sense
it would be applied here. This wasn't necessarily a new
thing at Oh no, no, no, not at all. Originally,

(21:05):
dried bonito was only sold in filet form um. Everyone
made their own shavings with this This microplane sort of
contraption that includes a drawer to catch the shavings called
a kasubiki, and apparently the first time that it was
sold in flake form, this might be marketing UM was
at this market stall in Tokyo in the es or

(21:27):
thirties that is still running to this day. Yes, yes, yes, yes.
And then this brings us to the invention of convenient
chemical alternatives promising the flavor of bonito flakes UM and
this has obviously had quite the impact on this industry
and on traditional producers. These alternatives have spent the process

(21:48):
up and this often involves skipping the mold application all together.
UM and many worry that the history and skill behind
bonito flake production dried buoni of flake production UM found
in traditional producers is in danger of dying out because
of this. But kind of as you mentioned earlier, Lauren,
at the same time, bonito flake production has been on

(22:11):
the rise in recent years thanks to these very same
convenience items like instant miso super instant noodle soups that
have made such a huge impact on the industry in
the first place. So it's kind of an interesting circle
that's going on here. UM. Globalization and the rise in
the popularity of Japanese food around the world has also

(22:33):
fueled the growing demand for Benita flakes worldwide, which in
turn feeds into this whole thing even more. And there
have been some hurdles. I found one particular instance, um
of how because Benito flakes often contain trace amounts of
benzopiring due to the smoking process, E regulations didn't allow

(22:55):
it to be imported from Japan into EU countries, which
led to some Japanese immigrants in Europe to start offering
their own products that met these EU rules. And there's
a whole yeah, like I said, there's a whole article
about it. But like you're finding the process and removing
the benzopowerne was costly, taxing and time consuming. But um,

(23:16):
some companies have found success. It just took them a
long time get there. Yeah, between between the benzopirne and
also um, the fact that some some of this product
is made with mold right has really um messed with
some regulations internationally. But yeah, for example, the first French

(23:36):
production plant for katsubushi opened in Yeah. Yeah, all of
this episode had so many stories that I read, and
I was just like inspired by or fascinated by all
the people behind this industry. Um and putting all this
hard work into it. Uh, it was really that was

(23:57):
really interesting to read all of their stories and to
see all these pieces of it. Sure, m m m hmmm.
I'm so excited to make use of my Vineto flicks
and to make some dashy but other things. I got
a lot of them. Yeah, they kind of only come
in like a lot portion. Yeah, but but right, Yeah,

(24:23):
it's it's so it can be such a simple flavor
and it's hard to like refine your palette um, especially
if you're not familiar with the product into noticing the
little differences between different types of it. But it's it's
a fun journey to go on. It is, it is,
And I think another field trip added to our list.

(24:44):
Oh dang. More beautiful places to go and beautiful foods
to eat. Heck, what a terrible lot that's been given well.
As always, listeners, we would love to hear from you,
especially if you have experienced with this or in Japan,
know somebody who's in the business all that kind of yes,

(25:06):
But in the meantime, we do have some listener mail
for you. We do. But first we've got one more
quick break for a word from our sponsors and we're back.
Thank you, sponsor, Yes, thank you, and we're back with

(25:27):
listen listeners. Oh, do you have any Halloween decorations up yet? Uh?
The move? Have you not put an up? Um? We
I just have my normal level of spooky um, which

(25:49):
like I've got like a little a little led lamp
that's like a little ghost kind of going. Uh. And
I've got one of those really silly skeleton it's like
skeleton cats that inexplicably has little skeleton ears. I don't
think that that's how bones work, but I love it. Yeah,

(26:11):
so so so we do. It's not it's not not
Halloween e right, But you're saying it's kind of not
too much above your regular level. It's it's lower than
my normal level because I have an unpacked hard got it,
but okay, but probably higher than many other humans normal

(26:34):
spook level. Um, do you have Halloween decorations up? Well,
I'm kind of in a similar boat, not in the
moving process, but like I generally have some stuff up
all the time. But I went to find I have
I already have a pumpkin, but I'm not going to
carve it until much later because my pumpkins always wrought
really quickly. Um, but I had these like candle pumpkin lights.

(26:57):
I can't find them are and I think it's a
Halloween mischiefous ghost bring because I know where I put them,
they are not there. And unless I was sleepwalking, I
I don't know. Man, just also a very Halloween trope. Yeah,

(27:19):
I'm gonna go look at my closet again in case
maybe I packed accidentally. But yeah, I mean, keep us,
keep us updated. This is important. Yeah, I'm telling you again,
like if somebody combed through our whole podcast and just
like piece together all of the kind of like throwaway
creepy facts, you'd have a good found footage absolutely like

(27:44):
this lady is haunted, this lady is a vampire. Yeah. Yeah, well,
I'll keep your updated. I'll find those pumpkins one way
or the other. If I have to go into that
ghost realm me my decorations. Um. Anyway, I just am
very very excited about soup season. I was planning all

(28:05):
my Halloween soups and then I was like, where are
my Halloween candles for my Halloween soup eating? And that's
hold come to this juncture anyway, Chelsea wrote, I'm listening
to your episode on Indiana, and I had to pause
and text my friends about Ethiopian airlines flying in in
Jada to d C every day. I didn't know what

(28:27):
a huge Ethiopian community d C had until I moved
here a little over a year ago. The many Ethiopian
restaurants in d C range from casual counter service to
fancy spots where you'd probably see a senator. It's so
cool to know the Indiana they serve as the real deal.
Just to add to your list of field trips, if
you ever decide to come to d C, you can

(28:47):
truly eat around the world here, which I have been
trying to do. Well. Yes, oh that sounds fabulous. It does,
and please keep us updated on your journey. I would
love to visit d C and do that. I've been
to d C a handful of times, but I think
every time I've been on kind of a crunch time wise,
so I haven't had the opportunity to really dig into

(29:10):
the food like I would like. Same same, Yeah, so
I and I never had any Ethiopian food while I
was there, and now I'm really regretting that I haven't either.
Um right, I've always been so on the run. But yeah,
it's always been like a work trip and under like
strange time crunch circumstances, right yeah, where you're kind of

(29:31):
like what is open right now? Yes? Yes, yes, but
added to the list yes uh. P K wrote, greetings
from Seattle. I just finished listening to your podcast about
green papaya salad and enjoyed it very much. When I
go back to Laos, it's one of the first things
I ordered from a street vendor, along with whatever meat

(29:52):
is currently grilling and sticky rice. I love the mix
of hot, sweet, sour and fermented flavors. I use green
papie salad as a gateway to introduce many friends to
Laushan cuisine. I love the show. Keep up the good work.
Oh that sounds so good and I still haven't had it,

(30:15):
but now I'm like, I definitely want this whole combination
you've got going of, like the sticky race, the flavor. Yeah,
the sticky race is really important. I keep forgetting to
order it when I order green papio salad from restaurants,
and that is something that can no longer stand. No
no more, Lauren, no more. Oh gosh, I've got to
get it. It sounds so good, it's one of those things,

(30:35):
like I said, I've never had, but I can immediately
like almost taste it and no all love it. Yeah,
oh yeah, it's so good. It's so it's so good.
And what a wonderful world of cravings I'm experiencing right now,
so many things, always, always, always well. Thanks to both

(30:56):
of those listeners for writing in. If you would like
to write to us, you can our emails hello at
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wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Thanks as always

(31:17):
to our super producers Dylan Fagin and Andrew Howard. Thanks
to you for listening, and we hope that lots more
good things are coming your way