February 3, 2021 • 46 mins
This melty, seasoned cheese dip is best known for having physical properties that do not belong to cheese. Anney and Lauren flow with the science and history of chile con queso.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:07):
Hello, and welcome to Savor production of I Heart Radio.
I'm Annie Reese and I'm Lauren Vogel Bam. And today
we're talking about KSOM like like the like the cheese dip. Yes,
much beloved around here around to these parts, like our
podcast or Atlanta in general. Or I would wager both, Laura,
(00:36):
I would wager around these parts could encompass a wide
swath of the United States. Yes, yes, um. And we
chose this topic because it's time for the Big Game
and not you know, I don't know my gaming of
the Last of US two once again. Oh yeah, other
(00:58):
things like that, but football and North American football specifically. Yes,
we are talking about the Super Bowl. We can say
the words. We can say the words. It's to avoid
it as much as I know. I love. I love
that you have this fear of it. You're just like, no,
(01:18):
they'll come after us. I can't be sued. I can't.
My dad was a lawyer. He used to always say
to me, Lauren, ignorance is no defense under the law.
Do you know that? Was like as a kid, you
can never win. Wow. Anyway, I also like the Big Game.
(01:40):
The Big Game is just a funny euphemism for it
is it is, and I and I love the culture
of of of euphemisms that have sprung up around us.
Um but but yes, uh ka soo dip is a
thing that happens at Super Bowl parties, which are not
really happening this year. Um no. But as know we've
(02:01):
discussed before. Even though I have no intention of watching
the game this year, I generally don't watch it anymore
unless I'm going to a party, which he has to
not be going to one this year. But I still
eat the food. I have the chicken wings already, like yeah,
And and caso is a is a big, big part
(02:22):
of a lot of Super Bowl celebrations are just like
foods that people like to eat around there. Um, it
does crack me up that a good portion of football
foods or dips. Yeah yeah, well anything anything like that
that's a that's snack able that you don't really have
to pay attention to. You can just sort of like
like blindly like like like shove a chip or a
(02:46):
celery stock or something into and then eat mm hmmm uh.
And they're delicious. College. When I was a kid, my
mom would make guacamole like we never had guacamole except
on so Pro Bowl someday. Yeah. Um. But a couple
of years ago, when Atlanta was one of the teams
(03:06):
in the Super Bowl, I went to a party. I
believe I've discussed it before because it's quite a memorable
experience for me. But almost all the foods, like everybody
bought their own foods, and almost all of them were dips. Um,
And it was like just the dips, the whole table
of dips. And I think there were several types of
k so, like spicy k so one that has meat
in it, like lots of k so and we jokingly
(03:29):
called it, um that party, the Party of the dips.
So many tipsous that's delightful. Uh yeah, I I don't actually,
I don't think that I have specific memories of cheese
dip in association with Super Bowl parties, but like like
(03:53):
buffalo chicken dip, yes, multi layered dips. Sure mm hmmm,
I'm really thinking and I'm and I'm really really pulling
a blank. I will say that, um, one of my
very very very favorite things to do um at one
of my very favorite dive bars around Atlanta, which I
(04:14):
miss so intensely right now. Um, They have caso on
the menu, and they will serve you a bowl of
the caso dip with a side of French fries and
you dip the fries in the caso and I feel
like just the most ultimate version of myself ever in
that moment, I'm like, well, this is my final form,
(04:34):
is a complete bar slag. This is great. Yes you
I I remember the first time I was there when
you ordered that. You introduced me to that, and I
was like, I must this is amazing, and every time
you would order it, it was the best time. So
thank you. You're welcome. Oh gosh, it's one of the
(04:57):
places that I go to in atlant and like I
walk in and they're like, they're like, so Jamison Rocks
and fries and caso, and I'm like, yes, everybody knows
your name. It's it's it's wonderful and terrible. It's uh both. Well,
(05:20):
I always enjoyed it. Yes, related to this, we have
previously done episodes on nachos and on American cheese if
if you would like to look those up. Um, but
caso and nachos are two totally separate categories, indeed, which
I suppose brings us to our question k so, what
(05:48):
is it? Well, uh k soo or chili cunque so
so or spicy cheese dip is a molten pool of
seasoned semi scopa bowl cheese these UM. The seasonings in
there can include things like a chili powder and oregano.
It can contain a number of other ingredients like um, tomato, chili, peppers, onion,
(06:10):
ground meat, or sausage chunky or diced, fine, roasted or not. UM.
It's generally served with crispy cornflour tortilla chips for dipping,
sometimes topped with other stuff like guacamole, maybe some fresh avocado,
something like that. UM. It is related to and inspired by,
caiso fondido, which is a side dish of of like
(06:31):
malty cheese baked with stuff like roasted peppers and onions
and or cherizo, served with UM warm soft wheat tortillas
and usually some kind of salsa or pickle for like
layering into the tortillas. But caeso fondido is is thicker
in texture, and I would in fact say that the
key to caeso is its texture. UM. It is a smooth,
(06:54):
homogeneous liquid, creamy, not oily, and when heated to the
proper serving temperature. It offers almost no resistance to a
chip that you dip into it. Like, you don't scoop
up the cheese as much as the cheese just coats
the chip. Um as it cools, you may enter like
a thicker scooping kind of territory. But I'd say that
at that point it's time to reheat the cheese. Okay,
(07:18):
So you don't want to do with the scooping nonsense.
You want the coating. I want the coating. That's what
I'm there for. Yeah, I mean the scooping is okay
because it's still a heck and bowl of spicy cheese, right.
I mean I would eat it with a fork at
that point, But you know, like if we really got
to it, um. But uh, okay, okay, there are a
(07:40):
number of ways to achieve this this liquid state via science, yes,
because I mean, like, okay, technically you're you're not going
to get any kind of cheese without science. But in general,
cheese does not want to melt into a perfectly homogeneous puddle.
And you've probably noticed this, and we did talk about
(08:00):
it at length um in our Nacho's episode. A few
other places as well, Um, the problem is here that
when you heat cheese up past a certain point about
ninety degrees fahrenheit or thirty two celsius, the fats in
the cheese, which which are suspended evenly among or or
emulsified in all of the other stuff that makes up
(08:21):
cheese when it's cool, um, that the fats can melt
out of it at that temperature, leaving you with a
bunch of oil and then some like lumpy cheese proteins. Um.
Those proteins won't won't break apart and liquefy until they
hit a much higher temperature um about a hundred and
thirty for soft, fresh, high moisture cheeses, um, and then
(08:43):
all the way up to eighty for aged dry cheeses,
which is about fifty four to eighty four celsius for
our metric friends. And not that you're probably going to
try to make a case so with like parmesan. But
I thought i'd mention it. Yeah, yeah, people out there
trying all kind of thing, you know, and I encourage it.
(09:04):
I encourage experimentation. Um, But right right in the middle
of that temperature range, um, you're going to have the
melting point of of like load of medium moisture. Aged
cheese is like a like a cheddar or a jack cheese,
and those can go really creamy when they're melted because
because during that aging process, UM, the protein molecules in
(09:26):
in the cheese will break down through enzyme action into
um into these shorter chains of proteins. So fresh cheese
is like like mozzarella, go stringy when they're melted because
those chains of proteins are are long and kind of tangly.
They get sort of ropey um together. But stuff like
cheddar can melt smoothly because because those those little bits
(09:50):
of proteins have more flow m or flow. So uh So,
to make the perfect dip ing cheese, you need to
make sure that the cheese has flow instead of stick,
and that it remains an emulsion when it's hot. UM.
And an emulsion is a mixture of stuff that usually
(10:13):
doesn't mix, like oil and water UM. And this is
why some recipes for queso use processed cheese UM, like
like American cheese cheeses that are specifically created using these
compounds that will maintain that emulsion UM. But you can
also use just whatever plain old regular cheese you like.
(10:35):
And add some of the compounds that are used in
creating processed cheese, like say, sodium citrate, and all of
my favorite recipes for queso that I've read on the
internet do indeed just say like, yeah, just go out
and buy some sodium citrate. It's widely available and use
it to make whatever kind of cheese you want perfectly melty.
(10:55):
H Yeah. Wow, I'll never look at cheese the same
way again. Ah. Gosh, that's my that's that's my goal
just all the time. Well, thank you, because I have
watched I'll put cheese, like shredded cheese on top of chicken,
and I'll watch and it just doesn't melt, and I'm like,
(11:15):
this is weird. Curses Yeah yeah, yeah, um yeah. Those
recipes tend to also recommend um, yeah, getting you know, melt,
melting your cheese with some sodium citrate and then using
an immersion blender for for really good times. Yeah, because
that is going to combine the the chemical stuff that's
(11:38):
happening in there, um, the micro physical stuff that's happening
with the macro physical action of the blender. Yeah. But okay,
note on sodium citrate, This is a salt of a
citric acid um, one of those things that makes a
citrus fruit tangy. And because it's a it's a salt
as well. It does the double action of of lowering
(12:00):
the pH of your cheese sauce or dip uh and
also making the proteins more soluble. And both these actions
create cohesion and flow among the molecules within your dip
that sounds like a cheese melody or jazz cheese jazz
(12:20):
cheeze jazz. Yeah, oh gosh, we had the hymns, now
the cheese jazz. Yeah gosh, And I thought I thought
I liked snake jazz, but cheese jazz even better. Uh So.
At any rate, the result of all of this is
going to be a creamy uh not not oily or
(12:44):
ropey dip thicker than a saucer a soup. Yeah, cheese
dip so good. Speaking of what about you know, watch
your watching serving sizes. Uh, this cheat cheese is a
is a calorie dense food. Um, it tends to be
(13:05):
pretty high and fat, also high in protein. A protein
is great, um, lots of lots of vitamins and minerals
in there. Um. But but yeah, yeah, keep in mind
that the serving size of a portion of cheese is
like an ounce. Um, oh, dear, yeah, yeah, And you know, hey,
(13:30):
hey it's a it can be it can be a treat,
and that's a wonderful treat yourself big for the big game.
Hey do what makes you happy? Yeah. I remember one
of my first when I first started as an intern
at this company that's gone through many different companies, but
essentially I've been the same space. Ish um. I went
(13:52):
to Matt Frederick, our dear friend and colleague. He had
a New Year's Redux party and there was this oh
chicken buffalo dip and I stayed in the in the
kitchen and I bet I ate half of it. I
I really went to town. Um. So the first time
that I had the first time that I had a
chicken buffalo dip, I was just like, yes, this is
(14:15):
my whole life now. I live in this cast role. Dish.
You will tear me away when I am dead or
there is no dip left. Oh jeez. All right, Well,
we do have some numbers for you. We do we
do um And to start off, I guess a little
(14:36):
bit of context that will get into more A lot
of you probably know this already, but much of the
case so in the United States is a combination of
pretty much two ingredients, which is Velvita and Rotel diiced
tomatoes and chilies. Yes, so original Rotel was the fifth
most sold canned goods in the United States, with sixty
(14:57):
nine point one million in singales. The Yeah, and right
before the Super Bowl there was a cheese apocalypse, um,
which was a Velveta shortish due to a recall, and
it moved to I know, a new production facility. People
(15:17):
freaks out and some even accused the company of manufacturing
the crisis basically a publicity stunt right before the Super
Bowl happened. Um. Witchcraft spokespeople denied, and in fact they
leaned into it really hard, calling Velveta our nation's most
precious commodity liquid gold. I don't know, disproves that they didn't.
(15:40):
It wasn't a publicity something. I don't think it was.
But I mean, there are supply issues surrounding the Super
Bowl every year in a lot of ways, like the
dent it does on chicken wings is wild. It is. Yeah,
there's been chicken wing heist. I think we talked about yeah, um,
and then something else We're gonna get into it later.
(16:01):
Is Arkansas cheese dip and Arkansas has a cheese dip
trail map on their official website like their state official
and they have a World Cheese Dip Championship. From their site,
quote Arkansas showed it is the epicenter of the cheese
dip world. And when our inaugural World Cheese Dip Championship hosted,
(16:24):
over six thousand people, served over two gallons of cheese
dip and offered over thirty different recipes. Wow, indeed glorious.
But Arkansas might not be the state you were expecting
to hear about. Probably a lot of you were thinking Texas,
And yes, Texan food writer and editor Helen Hollyman once said,
(16:46):
when I die, drizzle caso over my grave. Caso is
a Texan birthright, the most critical staple at any gathering
besides barbecue. Wow. Wow, I didn't know. I love it.
So this is one of the few I feel like
often I have come out of these episodes like wow,
(17:08):
how have I never heard of that? Or how did
I not hear of it until I basically come to
a city. So this one for me. I've always known
about Kiso for as long as I guess I've been
going out to restaurants so pretty young. Um. And I
was fascinating to read it accounts of people who had
never heard of kiso or didn't try it until adulthood,
about having difficulties finding velveta and retel and grocery stores,
(17:30):
especially people the stories I read moving to New York
are having a friend from Texas visit them in New
York and being like, Okay, so yeah, yeah, it's Um,
it's very strange to me. And I was trying to
figure out how this could possibly have occurred in American culture,
(17:52):
where in you know, like like like t g A
Fridays was like a whole thing during our childhoods. Anyway, Um,
I'm like, I'm like, did people did these people not
go to chain restaurants? Did they were there no Mexican
restaurants in their area? And then I went on a
whole like like internal rabbit hole about like are there
more Mexican restaurants in South Florida, Like I'm surely there's
(18:16):
a lot of I don't know, I'm not sure. I
haven't done the research into the spread of these cuisines
throughout the United States, but but I guess yeah, upstate
New York, Connecticut didn't know about k so you're missing out.
I'll never forget one of the first times I went
to New York in this UM woman I was visiting
(18:37):
who lived there. She was like, we just got a
southern food restaurant. Have you heard of grits. They're like, yes, yes, ma'am,
I have heard of grits. Yeah, I have that. He's like,
they have types of grits, and really, let's go check
this out there. Have they heard of grits because I'm
not sure that there's twenty types. No cheese, sugar as
(19:03):
a whole debate anyway, Yeah, it's really interesting. We're going
to talk about that a little bit of this kind
of spread of cas so and why or why not
it didn't spread. In the history section we will which
we will get into right after we get back from
a quick break for a word from our sponsor and
(19:28):
we're back. Thank you sponsor, Yes, thank you so. Disclaimer UM.
In this history section, we're mostly focusing on chili conquis,
which in the United States, when you say k so
generally what people mean, but I know there's a lot
of offshoots UM and different histories we could have pursued,
So let's put that out there. Yeah, yeah, and case so,
(19:52):
of course, it's just the Spanish word for cheese, yes, yes,
So if you just order, if you walk into a
restaurant in a Spanish speaking place and just say can
I have some queso, they might be confused, right, right,
right right. I think I'd be happy as long as
(20:12):
cheese at any rate. Yeah, sure, all right. So when
the Spanish arrived in what is now El Paso, Texas
in the late fift hundreds, they introduced a new live
stock to that area, including dairy producing live stock like
cows and goats. Prior to that, dairy was unknown to
that part of the world are mostly unknown. Um. It
(20:34):
was only a matter of time before these new in
quotes ingredients be incorporated into the cuisine in that area.
Yeah yeah. The broad culture of of Vaccaro's cowboys and
related communities around what's now northern Mexico and the southwestern
United States gave rise to local cheesemaking um, including a
(20:57):
number of fresh and short aged cheese is um. In
some cases, other colonists and immigrants to the area brought
specific cheesemaking methods, apparently Dominican monks influenced Wahaka cheese, which
is similar to mozzarella. French Canadian Mennonites influenced Chihuahua cheese,
which is similar to like a like a white cheddar
(21:18):
or a jack cheese. The Spanish also brought pigs, from
which Mexican red charizo developed, and then um the chilis
and tomatoes and onions that would also make up the
kind of basis for chili conque so um we're native
ingredients um often roasted and incorporated into many dishes rights um.
(21:39):
And there is no specific time we can point to
for when chili con queso came into existence, but one
of the first written instances is from Jose Joaquin Fernandez
de Lizards eighteen sixteen Mexican novel El Periquillo Sarniento or
The Mangi Parrot Um. It was mentioned again in a
(22:00):
eight six poems chile verde gonquiso Um. The poet described
their disappointment that women at the time knew more about
superficial things when they should know more about useful stuff
like how to serve cheese and chili. Yeah, it was
an amous anonymous poet. Um interesting um still this dish
(22:25):
didn't appear by name, and Mexican cookbooks during this period,
though the ingredients didn't and frequently show up and recipes together, um,
just not in chili con que. So. The first known
written recipe for that came out of printed in a
US magazine called The Land of the Sunshine that was
(22:45):
all about Mexican cuisine, and it included a recipe for
chile verdes con que, so a mixture of cheese, tomatoes,
and long green chilis. However, it wasn't really a dip
but a side dish, like the chilis were the main
part of it, and the these was just melted on
top for flavor. Yeah, which still sounds good. That sounds
(23:06):
really good. This is a very hungry episode, y'all. Yes
it is. At the same time, European melted cheese dips
like fon dues um had made their way to North
America and were popular there by the end of the
eighteen hundreds. So typically these were served with bread, and
these cheese dips were thought to be a precursor to
(23:29):
the may meal so an appetizer um in the first
decade of the nineteen hundreds, some of the first recipes
for quote Mexican takes on these European cheese dips started appearing,
beginning with a nineteen o eight recipe in a Kentucky
newspaper for quote Mexican rare bit or rabbit. Well yeah, so,
(23:50):
so the original dish was called Welsh rabbit. Um. But,
as we mentioned in a recent episode, um, that was
kind of a ding on the Welsh in on on
multiple levels because rabbit was considered a poor man's food.
The dish Welsh rabbit doesn't contain any rabbit, so it
(24:10):
was sort of a joke like, oh man, the Welsh
are so poor they can even afford rabbit. Um. So,
so sometimes it's called Welsh rare bit in a kind
of way that I think is trying to make up
for that joke. But I feel like glossing over it
doesn't actually help anything personally at any rate. So there
(24:35):
was this dish that was being called Mexican rare bit
based off of Welsh rare bit. Please continue, yes, thank
you Lauren any time. So yes, this dish was essentially
the base of Welsh rare bit, which was melted cheese, milk,
and egg served over toast, and it added in chili pulp.
(24:56):
San Francisco newspaper published a similar recipe in nineteen o nine,
swapping out the chili pulp for chili powder. Uh and
chili powder itself is often credited, at least in part
to a German immigrant living in Texas named William geb Heart.
In eighteen nineties six, he started advertising for his product,
Eagle Brand Chili Powder, and in nineteen eleven the company
(25:18):
released a cookbook that included a recipe for Mexican rare
bit with chili powder. In nineteen fourteen, the Boston Cooking
School magazine published a recipe that was sort of a
combo of chili con queso and Welsh rare bit um.
It did away with the egg usually called for in
Welsh rare bit and combined cheese, green chilies, tomatoes, corn,
(25:39):
and beer served over toast. A lot of these early
recipes called for roasting the vegetables and grading cheese, not
necessarily the easiest thing. A lot of people pointed that out,
which I thought was funny. I get why we are
going to talk about that, and yes, yes, but let's
step back. Like most foos we talked about, ka soo
(26:02):
probably originated separately, in several different locations. Times people were
melting cheese. It's a thing. Yes, we like cheese, we
like hot cheese. There you go exactly. But one popular
version credits Otis Farnsworth as the inventor of chilikan caso
in nineteen hundred. That same year, Farnsworth opened the original
(26:26):
Mexican restaurant in San Antonio, UM. Some historians suggest that
with this restaurant, Farnsworth created the model for the modern
day tex mex Texas food historian Rob Walsh wrote in
two thousand and eight, Farnsworth came up with the idea
of building a Mexican restaurant for Anglos in the commercial
district and staffing it with Latinos. And this model worked
(26:49):
and his restaurant became was the most popular and successful
Mexican restaurants in the state, and one of the most
beloved menu items was chili con queso m HM. Unfortunately,
the recipe has been lost to time, so we can
only speculate what type of cheese was used and if
it was served as a side or a dip. Something
(27:10):
It was anglicized to appeal to Americans who liked cheese
fondue different from Mexican style caso fondido. Um, and there
just isn't a lot of documentation to support this origin
story in general, but they certainly were a popular restaurant,
and so they might have helped popularize the dish around
(27:31):
the area. Indeed, yes, um, and I think we talked
about this in our Tamale episode. But at the end
of the nineteenth century and beginning of the twentieth century,
there was this period of Americans being interested in exotic
new foods from Mexico, spurred on by food and travel writers.
So people would come into like San Antonio and and
(27:53):
try these new fangled things and um, so that was
going on as well the same time. Um. Some sources
indicate that chili kun queso appeared on restaurant menus by
nineteen ten, when the Gunter Hotel in San Antonio served it.
One of the first written recipes for chili con queso
(28:14):
out of Texas appeared in the nineteen twenties San Antonio cookbook,
published by a local women's organization, and it called for
American cheese. And yeah, unlike in Mexican dishes that used
melting cheeses. Ever since, processed American cheese is invented in
the nineteen tins by Craft, is for the most part
(28:35):
been the cheese used in chili con que. So when
Velvita was popularized after its nineteen nineteen invention in the
nineteen thirties, which was after Craft purchased the product, consumers
of all economic stratus fell in love with it, using
it in all kinds of dishes. It was easy and
(28:55):
convenient and tasty. And at the time it was advertised
as a hell food because cheese is healthy. That that
was that, that was the idea that people, these advertisers
were like, you know, good good cheese, cheese. It helps,
(29:16):
it helps you grow strong. Get this easy cheese. It
melts good, molts good. Yeah, And it appeared in all
kinds of cookbooks and magazines. Um Velvita often served with
chips and tostadas and crackers or toast um. One of
the first recipes for chilian queso with Velvita popped up
(29:38):
in a nineteen nine recipe book out of Lubbock, Texas,
And this happened to coincide with a lot of things,
a perfect caso storm if you will caso storm, I know.
Right at the time, the US government did begin buying
cheese to support the American dairy industry, though it wasn't
(30:00):
until the Reagan administration that so called government cheese was
distributed on a wide scale, but still this might have
been at play in Americans using American processed cheese in
Mexican dishes. UM. The increased awareness and popularity of foods
like tacos also helped, and corn tortilla chips were being
mass produced by the nineteen thirties. But before the nineteen forties,
(30:25):
the average American couldn't easily get their hands on things
like chilies are fresh halpinos, so many of these early
recipes leaned on things like patfriedka are cayen for heat um.
But a new product came along in nineteen three that
changed that canned tomatoes and spicy green chilies, the product
(30:46):
of a farmer and canary owner named Carl rotel Um.
He was concerned the American public would struggle pronouncing his name,
so he shortened it to Rowtel and there you go. UM.
At first, hotel was only available in Texas, but by
the nineteen fifties they started expanding UM to nearby states,
(31:08):
mostly and in ninety nine, wanting to cash in on
the popularity of case at things like football games and
just gatherings in general, Rotel began marketing itself as an
essential ingredient for k so UM. The recipe they published
that year was easy. Just mixing their product with melted
cheese served with chips, You're done. Americans were encouraged to
(31:31):
use this new Rotel product with processed cheese through advertisements
pretty much from the jump, and the ads were so
successful that the products are advertised other to this day. UM.
Despite being owned by different companies, Craft and Rotel specifically
joined forces in the nineteen eighties. But but yeah, I
(31:51):
know that they each company had separately been like as
far as I can tell, completely independently being like, yeah,
pair our stuff with this other thing. It's what you do. Um.
And because both Velvita and Rotel were inexpensive and widely
available by the seventies and eighties, UM, at least it
seems in most of the United States, maybe not all
(32:14):
the United States. Uh. It was so easy to just
warm the Velvita and add in the Rotel chilies to
make a smooth, say remixture. Because it was easy, cheap
and pretty available. This version of chili con caso became
a popular dip on American tables. Um but of course
(32:34):
this is not the only version of keso, and caso
is not always served in dip form. But you know,
chili con queso in the US, that's what a lot
of people think of first. Yes, specifically right velveta and
rotel mm hmmm. Um. So restaurants thrived after World War Two,
and this helped bring kso more mainstream as well. One
(32:56):
well loved version that I saw in multiple article came
out of Matt's l Rancher restaurant, which opened in nineteen
fifty two. There, Bob Armstrong Dip chili kan queso with guacamole,
Sara cream, and taco meat was immediately popular after they
debuted it in the nineteen sixties, allegedly named after the
influential politician Bob Armstrong who requested an offmanu item and
(33:19):
this is what they made him. Huh and his friends here,
he told his friends and they came in ordered it,
and so on and so on. It became so popular
that they made it a permanent offering and it went
on to become their most famous dish mhm. And then
in nineteen sixty four, first Lady of Claudia, Lady Bird Johnson,
(33:41):
shared her recipe for chili con queso in the Washington Post.
At the time, it was still pretty regional huh um.
And and she was from the Johnson's were from Texas,
so yes, um. So. Her recipe in this article called
for age cheddar cheese and what is thought to have
been an attempt to be more sophisticated, right, but chess
(34:04):
just didn't not well, it didn't have the flow. Yeah. Yeah,
if you if you age the cheese too much, again,
you're you're you're getting into into kind of kind of
dry territory. And that's not there's less flow. There's less flow.
And the White House chef at the time even referred
to this recipe as chili con concrete. Um. Later versions
(34:30):
it's very harshness, yes, but later versions of the recipe
from Johnson used processed cheese. I would assume that she
made it with processed cheese and Texas before this, Yeah, yeah,
she did help bump rod tails products like bring them
more to National Earns. M hmm. But hold on, we've
(34:53):
got to talk k So, so so controversy, okay, so controversy. Yeah,
in teen and Arkansas claim named their state and specifically
a Mexican restaurant in Little Rock as the birthplace of Caso.
But there it's called cheese dip. Yes. In the nineteen thirties, yeah, oh,
(35:16):
it calls quite a stir. The senators of both states
even brought dips from their respective homes for their colleagues
to judge, like blindfold taste test and the Arkansas cheese
dip one out. Well heck yeah, get it, underdogs. I
don't know why. I just got excited. It was very exciting. Um.
(35:39):
While cheese dip is made with American processed cheese, it
typically uses chili powder like earlier recipes did, so that's
the main difference. Um. Again, in the nineteen thirties, chilies
were expensive and hard to find outside of maybe Texas, well,
maybe compared to Texas if you're comparing Arkansas to Texas. However,
(36:01):
according to Lisa Faine, who literally wrote the book on
case so appropriately called Case Low exclamation Point Regional Recipes
for the World's Favorite Chili Cheese Dip, and she also
writes the Homesick Texan um, according to her, there isn't
really any legitimacy to the Arkansas claim. Oh oh yeah.
(36:21):
She traced the story to a Mexican restaurant opened via
Texan in Longview, Arkansas and later Little Rock. She called
their claim quote bogus. Wow, m I I would like
to repeat my my prior statement that like people enjoy
(36:41):
hot cheese and I don't. I mean, you know, why
can't we all just get along? Does there have to
be caso controversy? I think it seems that there must be,
because we're not even done with the case so controversy.
Mm hmmm, well okay, hold on, we're almost getting to
(37:04):
the the biggest recent controversy. Oh right, right, right, okay, okay,
but but first side book first, because this took place,
Yeah this was. But then stepping back a little bit.
ConAgra purchased Hotel in two thousand two, and in two
thousand five, Velvia and Motel became official partners. Craft In
ConAgra launched a series of quote caso awareness as outside
(37:29):
of Texas markets and two thousand eight, okay, yeah, yes,
but let us discuss this right in ten chains, Chipotle
and wind You's introduced caso at their restaurants due to
consumer demand, I believe, a Chipotle spokesperson even said we're
(37:51):
losing business to competitors because we don't offers. Yeah. So
I remember this, the Chipotle one causing white the Kurve fuffle.
The chain's version used all natural ingredients in quotes, and
they were like twenty ingredients in it. It was a lot. Yeah.
Two Americans used to ingredient version of velvet and rotel,
(38:13):
which yes, I know they have other things in there,
but very simple. Essentially, this wasn't really what they wanted
when they were getting caso and there in case, so
they it wasn't what they were expecting. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
Sales of Chipotle stock dropped three per cent in the
wake of this case, so controversy. Um. They retooled their
(38:34):
recipe to make it creamier in the following months, and
I read some reviews of it, and it sounds like
it's improved but still not snuff. They're still not quite right. Yeah, well, yeah,
I don't think. I don't think I ever tried the case.
So um. They they offered it both as a dip
and as a like topping for or or you know,
ingredient that they would put into your burrito. But yeah,
(38:57):
it it sounds like the issue was that it was
too runny. Um it wasn't. It had too much flow. Yeah, yeah,
you need you need a flow balance, um hm uh
and so it just right right, It just wasn't quite.
That texture was not there. And and yeah, people were
(39:18):
savage about it, just absolutely angry. Oh yeah. They were like,
you never offer us ks so and now you finally
offer us ks so and it's bad. Cas So. You
have made k so bad? How and why it's impossible?
Do you hate us this much? Um? People were salty? Yeah. Um,
(39:42):
I remember we got it at our office. I believe
it was our coworker Paul. It was a big Chipotle fan,
was like, we've got to try this case so and
see what the fun gosh right? Yeah, and I tried
it and I just remember like, yeah, the texture being
off and it kind of just being How was it
not salty enough? That seems impossible? Yeah, this wasn't meant
(40:08):
to be a hit piece. No. I hope that. I
hope that they they're their recipe revamp has made it better. Um,
I wish them the best. I don't know. We want
good case so options for people, I do for sure. Yeah. Yeah, yeah,
(40:28):
and if if you are just eating some Super Bowl
adjacent foods, and we hope that case. So should you
desire it, you find it, and you and enjoy it.
Oh gosh, absolutely. Um. I also hope that you try
dipping some French fries in at sometime. I hope that
you support your local restaurants, if and where you can, um,
(40:52):
getting getting nice, nice safe take out and reheating your
case so to keep it at the perfect temperature while
you're at home. Yes, because again we want you to
have a lovely case of experience. Gosh, we do. Yes. Well,
that's what we have to say about Caso for now.
(41:12):
It is. We do have some listener mail, but first
we've got one more quick break for a word from
our sponsor, and we're back. Thank you, sponsor, Yes, thank you,
and we're back with this listener's dip. I was like,
(41:42):
is it a football fumble? Is there a Oh you're right,
I should have done that missed opportunity. Oh, I think
it was very similar in concept, So you know, I
was diving. I was like diving into the yeah. Oh
oh man. I've had in my head this entire time
(42:03):
this I keep talking about about this texture of the
cheese and I just keep imagining like a like a
hot tub full. Okay, so dip mm hm. And how
in my in my like cartoon inner reality, it would
be delightful. Yeah. In actual reality, I'm sure it would
(42:25):
be gross, but it's nice to live in that cartoon
reality every now and then. Yeah. Anyway, anyway, Mackenzie wrote, Hello,
I'm not going to confess my love for lima beans,
because if I'm being honest, I don't think I've ever
had a lima bean. But I am going to confess
my love for the best book of all time. Annie.
(42:47):
Your sad story about kids making fun of you for
liking lima beans reminded of me so much of the
girl from this story. The book is called A Bad
Case of the Stripes by David Shannon. It's a children's
picture book. It's about a girl named Camilla Cream. She
loves the lime of beans, but everyone makes fun of
her for liking them, so she decides to stop eating them.
(43:07):
Soon after, she breaks out in a Bad Case of
the Stripes and her life gets turned upside down. You'll
have to read it to see how it ends, but
I'm telling you it is heartwarming and encouraging for everyone,
even a twenty nine year old who should probably read
more grown up literature. I think you will love this
book and its message. The illustrations in it are amazing
(43:28):
as well. You really should go order the book right now.
Your life will be forever better for it. Uh yeah,
oh I I wish I had had this as a kid.
I would have hardcore connected. And they are not the
only person who wrote in uh Thatcher wrote about this too, quote.
I just finished your episode on Lime of Beans and
it reminded me of this children's book I read a
(43:49):
long time ago. It's called A Bad Case of the
Stripes by David Shannon. Annie, you will love the stories.
It's your teas because you liked Lima Beans. How wonderful.
I gotta fine do. I got to search it right?
Oh gosh cool? Okay? Uh. Viva wrote, I'm late to
your episode on Tomato soup cake, but I'm definitely not
new to the cake itself. Long ago, when my kids
(44:12):
were little, I'm now a grandma, we didn't have much money.
What we did have was a dog eared, much loved
copy of the Joy of Cooking and PBS. Invariably, as
the end of the month closed in and the rent
came do again, I would have to make a trip
to one or more of the local food banks. No
matter which one I went to or what time of
the year, we always found a couple of cans of
(44:33):
condensed cream of tomato soup in the bag, sometimes Campbells,
often generic, occasionally organic, but always tomato soup. The Joy
of Cooking called it surprise cake. However, as artsy nerdy
PBS watching types, we quickly began referring to it as
the Andy Warhol Cake. It was our go to cake
for years. We added chocolate chips to the batter and
(44:55):
made a frosting out of cream, cheese and honey. For
special occasions on cold Sunday mornings, would turn it into
coffee cake with the addition of a crumble topping. Long
after our lean food bank days were over, I'd pick
up a couple of cans of tomato soup whenever it
was on sale, just to bake our beloved Andy Warhol cake.
I love that how customizable it was, and gave it
(45:18):
your own name made it. Oh that is that is
so beautiful. I really need to make this cake now,
I know. I'm so intrigued, like my brain, I can't
I know we've talked about it, but I'm imagine kind
of like a spiced cake or something. Yeah, yeah, that
that's what a lot of recipes that I've that I've
read have called for um And I imagine that the
(45:41):
tomato gives it kind of like almost like a citrusy
kind of kick. So yeah, one of these days, one
of these days gonna happen. Definitely. Thanks to those listeners
for writing. If you would like to write to us,
you can or email is hello at savorpod dot com.
Are also on social media. You can find us on Twitter, Facebook,
(46:03):
and Instagram at saver pod and we do hope to
hear from you. Savor is production of I Heart Radio.
For more podcasts my heart Radio, you can visit the
I heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen
to your favorite shows. Thanks as always to our super
producers Dylan Figin and Andrew Howard. Thanks to you for listening,
and we hope that lots more good things are coming
your way.
Hello, and welcome to Savor production of I Heart Radio.
I'm Annie Reese and I'm Lauren Vogel Bam. And today
we're talking about KSOM like like the like the cheese dip. Yes,
much beloved around here around to these parts, like our
podcast or Atlanta in general. Or I would wager both, Laura,
(00:36):
I would wager around these parts could encompass a wide
swath of the United States. Yes, yes, um. And we
chose this topic because it's time for the Big Game
and not you know, I don't know my gaming of
the Last of US two once again. Oh yeah, other
(00:58):
things like that, but football and North American football specifically. Yes,
we are talking about the Super Bowl. We can say
the words. We can say the words. It's to avoid
it as much as I know. I love. I love
that you have this fear of it. You're just like, no,
(01:18):
they'll come after us. I can't be sued. I can't.
My dad was a lawyer. He used to always say
to me, Lauren, ignorance is no defense under the law.
Do you know that? Was like as a kid, you
can never win. Wow. Anyway, I also like the Big Game.
(01:40):
The Big Game is just a funny euphemism for it
is it is, and I and I love the culture
of of of euphemisms that have sprung up around us.
Um but but yes, uh ka soo dip is a
thing that happens at Super Bowl parties, which are not
really happening this year. Um no. But as know we've
(02:01):
discussed before. Even though I have no intention of watching
the game this year, I generally don't watch it anymore
unless I'm going to a party, which he has to
not be going to one this year. But I still
eat the food. I have the chicken wings already, like yeah,
And and caso is a is a big, big part
(02:22):
of a lot of Super Bowl celebrations are just like
foods that people like to eat around there. Um, it
does crack me up that a good portion of football
foods or dips. Yeah yeah, well anything anything like that
that's a that's snack able that you don't really have
to pay attention to. You can just sort of like
like blindly like like like shove a chip or a
(02:46):
celery stock or something into and then eat mm hmmm uh.
And they're delicious. College. When I was a kid, my
mom would make guacamole like we never had guacamole except
on so Pro Bowl someday. Yeah. Um. But a couple
of years ago, when Atlanta was one of the teams
(03:06):
in the Super Bowl, I went to a party. I
believe I've discussed it before because it's quite a memorable
experience for me. But almost all the foods, like everybody
bought their own foods, and almost all of them were dips. Um,
And it was like just the dips, the whole table
of dips. And I think there were several types of
k so, like spicy k so one that has meat
in it, like lots of k so and we jokingly
(03:29):
called it, um that party, the Party of the dips.
So many tipsous that's delightful. Uh yeah, I I don't actually,
I don't think that I have specific memories of cheese
dip in association with Super Bowl parties, but like like
(03:53):
buffalo chicken dip, yes, multi layered dips. Sure mm hmmm,
I'm really thinking and I'm and I'm really really pulling
a blank. I will say that, um, one of my
very very very favorite things to do um at one
of my very favorite dive bars around Atlanta, which I
(04:14):
miss so intensely right now. Um, They have caso on
the menu, and they will serve you a bowl of
the caso dip with a side of French fries and
you dip the fries in the caso and I feel
like just the most ultimate version of myself ever in
that moment, I'm like, well, this is my final form,
(04:34):
is a complete bar slag. This is great. Yes you
I I remember the first time I was there when
you ordered that. You introduced me to that, and I
was like, I must this is amazing, and every time
you would order it, it was the best time. So
thank you. You're welcome. Oh gosh, it's one of the
(04:57):
places that I go to in atlant and like I
walk in and they're like, they're like, so Jamison Rocks
and fries and caso, and I'm like, yes, everybody knows
your name. It's it's it's wonderful and terrible. It's uh both. Well,
(05:20):
I always enjoyed it. Yes, related to this, we have
previously done episodes on nachos and on American cheese if
if you would like to look those up. Um, but
caso and nachos are two totally separate categories, indeed, which
I suppose brings us to our question k so, what
(05:48):
is it? Well, uh k soo or chili cunque so
so or spicy cheese dip is a molten pool of
seasoned semi scopa bowl cheese these UM. The seasonings in
there can include things like a chili powder and oregano.
It can contain a number of other ingredients like um, tomato, chili, peppers, onion,
(06:10):
ground meat, or sausage chunky or diced, fine, roasted or not. UM.
It's generally served with crispy cornflour tortilla chips for dipping,
sometimes topped with other stuff like guacamole, maybe some fresh avocado,
something like that. UM. It is related to and inspired by,
caiso fondido, which is a side dish of of like
(06:31):
malty cheese baked with stuff like roasted peppers and onions
and or cherizo, served with UM warm soft wheat tortillas
and usually some kind of salsa or pickle for like
layering into the tortillas. But caeso fondido is is thicker
in texture, and I would in fact say that the
key to caeso is its texture. UM. It is a smooth,
(06:54):
homogeneous liquid, creamy, not oily, and when heated to the
proper serving temperature. It offers almost no resistance to a
chip that you dip into it. Like, you don't scoop
up the cheese as much as the cheese just coats
the chip. Um as it cools, you may enter like
a thicker scooping kind of territory. But I'd say that
at that point it's time to reheat the cheese. Okay,
(07:18):
So you don't want to do with the scooping nonsense.
You want the coating. I want the coating. That's what
I'm there for. Yeah, I mean the scooping is okay
because it's still a heck and bowl of spicy cheese, right.
I mean I would eat it with a fork at
that point, But you know, like if we really got
to it, um. But uh, okay, okay, there are a
(07:40):
number of ways to achieve this this liquid state via science, yes,
because I mean, like, okay, technically you're you're not going
to get any kind of cheese without science. But in general,
cheese does not want to melt into a perfectly homogeneous puddle.
And you've probably noticed this, and we did talk about
(08:00):
it at length um in our Nacho's episode. A few
other places as well, Um, the problem is here that
when you heat cheese up past a certain point about
ninety degrees fahrenheit or thirty two celsius, the fats in
the cheese, which which are suspended evenly among or or
emulsified in all of the other stuff that makes up
(08:21):
cheese when it's cool, um, that the fats can melt
out of it at that temperature, leaving you with a
bunch of oil and then some like lumpy cheese proteins. Um.
Those proteins won't won't break apart and liquefy until they
hit a much higher temperature um about a hundred and
thirty for soft, fresh, high moisture cheeses, um, and then
(08:43):
all the way up to eighty for aged dry cheeses,
which is about fifty four to eighty four celsius for
our metric friends. And not that you're probably going to
try to make a case so with like parmesan. But
I thought i'd mention it. Yeah, yeah, people out there
trying all kind of thing, you know, and I encourage it.
(09:04):
I encourage experimentation. Um, But right right in the middle
of that temperature range, um, you're going to have the
melting point of of like load of medium moisture. Aged
cheese is like a like a cheddar or a jack cheese,
and those can go really creamy when they're melted because
because during that aging process, UM, the protein molecules in
(09:26):
in the cheese will break down through enzyme action into
um into these shorter chains of proteins. So fresh cheese
is like like mozzarella, go stringy when they're melted because
those chains of proteins are are long and kind of tangly.
They get sort of ropey um together. But stuff like
cheddar can melt smoothly because because those those little bits
(09:50):
of proteins have more flow m or flow. So uh So,
to make the perfect dip ing cheese, you need to
make sure that the cheese has flow instead of stick,
and that it remains an emulsion when it's hot. UM.
And an emulsion is a mixture of stuff that usually
(10:13):
doesn't mix, like oil and water UM. And this is
why some recipes for queso use processed cheese UM, like
like American cheese cheeses that are specifically created using these
compounds that will maintain that emulsion UM. But you can
also use just whatever plain old regular cheese you like.
(10:35):
And add some of the compounds that are used in
creating processed cheese, like say, sodium citrate, and all of
my favorite recipes for queso that I've read on the
internet do indeed just say like, yeah, just go out
and buy some sodium citrate. It's widely available and use
it to make whatever kind of cheese you want perfectly melty.
(10:55):
H Yeah. Wow, I'll never look at cheese the same
way again. Ah. Gosh, that's my that's that's my goal
just all the time. Well, thank you, because I have
watched I'll put cheese, like shredded cheese on top of chicken,
and I'll watch and it just doesn't melt, and I'm like,
(11:15):
this is weird. Curses Yeah yeah, yeah, um yeah. Those
recipes tend to also recommend um, yeah, getting you know, melt,
melting your cheese with some sodium citrate and then using
an immersion blender for for really good times. Yeah, because
that is going to combine the the chemical stuff that's
(11:38):
happening in there, um, the micro physical stuff that's happening
with the macro physical action of the blender. Yeah. But okay,
note on sodium citrate, This is a salt of a
citric acid um, one of those things that makes a
citrus fruit tangy. And because it's a it's a salt
as well. It does the double action of of lowering
(12:00):
the pH of your cheese sauce or dip uh and
also making the proteins more soluble. And both these actions
create cohesion and flow among the molecules within your dip
that sounds like a cheese melody or jazz cheese jazz
(12:20):
cheeze jazz. Yeah, oh gosh, we had the hymns, now
the cheese jazz. Yeah gosh, And I thought I thought
I liked snake jazz, but cheese jazz even better. Uh So.
At any rate, the result of all of this is
going to be a creamy uh not not oily or
(12:44):
ropey dip thicker than a saucer a soup. Yeah, cheese
dip so good. Speaking of what about you know, watch
your watching serving sizes. Uh, this cheat cheese is a
is a calorie dense food. Um, it tends to be
(13:05):
pretty high and fat, also high in protein. A protein
is great, um, lots of lots of vitamins and minerals
in there. Um. But but yeah, yeah, keep in mind
that the serving size of a portion of cheese is
like an ounce. Um, oh, dear, yeah, yeah, And you know, hey,
(13:30):
hey it's a it can be it can be a treat,
and that's a wonderful treat yourself big for the big game.
Hey do what makes you happy? Yeah. I remember one
of my first when I first started as an intern
at this company that's gone through many different companies, but
essentially I've been the same space. Ish um. I went
(13:52):
to Matt Frederick, our dear friend and colleague. He had
a New Year's Redux party and there was this oh
chicken buffalo dip and I stayed in the in the
kitchen and I bet I ate half of it. I
I really went to town. Um. So the first time
that I had the first time that I had a
chicken buffalo dip, I was just like, yes, this is
(14:15):
my whole life now. I live in this cast role. Dish.
You will tear me away when I am dead or
there is no dip left. Oh jeez. All right, Well,
we do have some numbers for you. We do we
do um And to start off, I guess a little
(14:36):
bit of context that will get into more A lot
of you probably know this already, but much of the
case so in the United States is a combination of
pretty much two ingredients, which is Velvita and Rotel diiced
tomatoes and chilies. Yes, so original Rotel was the fifth
most sold canned goods in the United States, with sixty
(14:57):
nine point one million in singales. The Yeah, and right
before the Super Bowl there was a cheese apocalypse, um,
which was a Velveta shortish due to a recall, and
it moved to I know, a new production facility. People
(15:17):
freaks out and some even accused the company of manufacturing
the crisis basically a publicity stunt right before the Super
Bowl happened. Um. Witchcraft spokespeople denied, and in fact they
leaned into it really hard, calling Velveta our nation's most
precious commodity liquid gold. I don't know, disproves that they didn't.
(15:40):
It wasn't a publicity something. I don't think it was.
But I mean, there are supply issues surrounding the Super
Bowl every year in a lot of ways, like the
dent it does on chicken wings is wild. It is. Yeah,
there's been chicken wing heist. I think we talked about yeah, um,
and then something else We're gonna get into it later.
(16:01):
Is Arkansas cheese dip and Arkansas has a cheese dip
trail map on their official website like their state official
and they have a World Cheese Dip Championship. From their site,
quote Arkansas showed it is the epicenter of the cheese
dip world. And when our inaugural World Cheese Dip Championship hosted,
(16:24):
over six thousand people, served over two gallons of cheese
dip and offered over thirty different recipes. Wow, indeed glorious.
But Arkansas might not be the state you were expecting
to hear about. Probably a lot of you were thinking Texas,
And yes, Texan food writer and editor Helen Hollyman once said,
(16:46):
when I die, drizzle caso over my grave. Caso is
a Texan birthright, the most critical staple at any gathering
besides barbecue. Wow. Wow, I didn't know. I love it.
So this is one of the few I feel like
often I have come out of these episodes like wow,
(17:08):
how have I never heard of that? Or how did
I not hear of it until I basically come to
a city. So this one for me. I've always known
about Kiso for as long as I guess I've been
going out to restaurants so pretty young. Um. And I
was fascinating to read it accounts of people who had
never heard of kiso or didn't try it until adulthood,
about having difficulties finding velveta and retel and grocery stores,
(17:30):
especially people the stories I read moving to New York
are having a friend from Texas visit them in New
York and being like, Okay, so yeah, yeah, it's Um,
it's very strange to me. And I was trying to
figure out how this could possibly have occurred in American culture,
(17:52):
where in you know, like like like t g A
Fridays was like a whole thing during our childhoods. Anyway, Um,
I'm like, I'm like, did people did these people not
go to chain restaurants? Did they were there no Mexican
restaurants in their area? And then I went on a
whole like like internal rabbit hole about like are there
more Mexican restaurants in South Florida, Like I'm surely there's
(18:16):
a lot of I don't know, I'm not sure. I
haven't done the research into the spread of these cuisines
throughout the United States, but but I guess yeah, upstate
New York, Connecticut didn't know about k so you're missing out.
I'll never forget one of the first times I went
to New York in this UM woman I was visiting
(18:37):
who lived there. She was like, we just got a
southern food restaurant. Have you heard of grits. They're like, yes, yes, ma'am,
I have heard of grits. Yeah, I have that. He's like,
they have types of grits, and really, let's go check
this out there. Have they heard of grits because I'm
not sure that there's twenty types. No cheese, sugar as
(19:03):
a whole debate anyway, Yeah, it's really interesting. We're going
to talk about that a little bit of this kind
of spread of cas so and why or why not
it didn't spread. In the history section we will which
we will get into right after we get back from
a quick break for a word from our sponsor and
(19:28):
we're back. Thank you sponsor, Yes, thank you so. Disclaimer UM.
In this history section, we're mostly focusing on chili conquis,
which in the United States, when you say k so
generally what people mean, but I know there's a lot
of offshoots UM and different histories we could have pursued,
So let's put that out there. Yeah, yeah, and case so,
(19:52):
of course, it's just the Spanish word for cheese, yes, yes,
So if you just order, if you walk into a
restaurant in a Spanish speaking place and just say can
I have some queso, they might be confused, right, right,
right right. I think I'd be happy as long as
(20:12):
cheese at any rate. Yeah, sure, all right. So when
the Spanish arrived in what is now El Paso, Texas
in the late fift hundreds, they introduced a new live
stock to that area, including dairy producing live stock like
cows and goats. Prior to that, dairy was unknown to
that part of the world are mostly unknown. Um. It
(20:34):
was only a matter of time before these new in
quotes ingredients be incorporated into the cuisine in that area.
Yeah yeah. The broad culture of of Vaccaro's cowboys and
related communities around what's now northern Mexico and the southwestern
United States gave rise to local cheesemaking um, including a
(20:57):
number of fresh and short aged cheese is um. In
some cases, other colonists and immigrants to the area brought
specific cheesemaking methods, apparently Dominican monks influenced Wahaka cheese, which
is similar to mozzarella. French Canadian Mennonites influenced Chihuahua cheese,
which is similar to like a like a white cheddar
(21:18):
or a jack cheese. The Spanish also brought pigs, from
which Mexican red charizo developed, and then um the chilis
and tomatoes and onions that would also make up the
kind of basis for chili conque so um we're native
ingredients um often roasted and incorporated into many dishes rights um.
(21:39):
And there is no specific time we can point to
for when chili con queso came into existence, but one
of the first written instances is from Jose Joaquin Fernandez
de Lizards eighteen sixteen Mexican novel El Periquillo Sarniento or
The Mangi Parrot Um. It was mentioned again in a
(22:00):
eight six poems chile verde gonquiso Um. The poet described
their disappointment that women at the time knew more about
superficial things when they should know more about useful stuff
like how to serve cheese and chili. Yeah, it was
an amous anonymous poet. Um interesting um still this dish
(22:25):
didn't appear by name, and Mexican cookbooks during this period,
though the ingredients didn't and frequently show up and recipes together, um,
just not in chili con que. So. The first known
written recipe for that came out of printed in a
US magazine called The Land of the Sunshine that was
(22:45):
all about Mexican cuisine, and it included a recipe for
chile verdes con que, so a mixture of cheese, tomatoes,
and long green chilis. However, it wasn't really a dip
but a side dish, like the chilis were the main
part of it, and the these was just melted on
top for flavor. Yeah, which still sounds good. That sounds
(23:06):
really good. This is a very hungry episode, y'all. Yes
it is. At the same time, European melted cheese dips
like fon dues um had made their way to North
America and were popular there by the end of the
eighteen hundreds. So typically these were served with bread, and
these cheese dips were thought to be a precursor to
(23:29):
the may meal so an appetizer um in the first
decade of the nineteen hundreds, some of the first recipes
for quote Mexican takes on these European cheese dips started appearing,
beginning with a nineteen o eight recipe in a Kentucky
newspaper for quote Mexican rare bit or rabbit. Well yeah, so,
(23:50):
so the original dish was called Welsh rabbit. Um. But,
as we mentioned in a recent episode, um, that was
kind of a ding on the Welsh in on on
multiple levels because rabbit was considered a poor man's food.
The dish Welsh rabbit doesn't contain any rabbit, so it
(24:10):
was sort of a joke like, oh man, the Welsh
are so poor they can even afford rabbit. Um. So,
so sometimes it's called Welsh rare bit in a kind
of way that I think is trying to make up
for that joke. But I feel like glossing over it
doesn't actually help anything personally at any rate. So there
(24:35):
was this dish that was being called Mexican rare bit
based off of Welsh rare bit. Please continue, yes, thank
you Lauren any time. So yes, this dish was essentially
the base of Welsh rare bit, which was melted cheese, milk,
and egg served over toast, and it added in chili pulp.
(24:56):
San Francisco newspaper published a similar recipe in nineteen o nine,
swapping out the chili pulp for chili powder. Uh and
chili powder itself is often credited, at least in part
to a German immigrant living in Texas named William geb Heart.
In eighteen nineties six, he started advertising for his product,
Eagle Brand Chili Powder, and in nineteen eleven the company
(25:18):
released a cookbook that included a recipe for Mexican rare
bit with chili powder. In nineteen fourteen, the Boston Cooking
School magazine published a recipe that was sort of a
combo of chili con queso and Welsh rare bit um.
It did away with the egg usually called for in
Welsh rare bit and combined cheese, green chilies, tomatoes, corn,
(25:39):
and beer served over toast. A lot of these early
recipes called for roasting the vegetables and grading cheese, not
necessarily the easiest thing. A lot of people pointed that out,
which I thought was funny. I get why we are
going to talk about that, and yes, yes, but let's
step back. Like most foos we talked about, ka soo
(26:02):
probably originated separately, in several different locations. Times people were
melting cheese. It's a thing. Yes, we like cheese, we
like hot cheese. There you go exactly. But one popular
version credits Otis Farnsworth as the inventor of chilikan caso
in nineteen hundred. That same year, Farnsworth opened the original
(26:26):
Mexican restaurant in San Antonio, UM. Some historians suggest that
with this restaurant, Farnsworth created the model for the modern
day tex mex Texas food historian Rob Walsh wrote in
two thousand and eight, Farnsworth came up with the idea
of building a Mexican restaurant for Anglos in the commercial
district and staffing it with Latinos. And this model worked
(26:49):
and his restaurant became was the most popular and successful
Mexican restaurants in the state, and one of the most
beloved menu items was chili con queso m HM. Unfortunately,
the recipe has been lost to time, so we can
only speculate what type of cheese was used and if
it was served as a side or a dip. Something
(27:10):
It was anglicized to appeal to Americans who liked cheese
fondue different from Mexican style caso fondido. Um, and there
just isn't a lot of documentation to support this origin
story in general, but they certainly were a popular restaurant,
and so they might have helped popularize the dish around
(27:31):
the area. Indeed, yes, um, and I think we talked
about this in our Tamale episode. But at the end
of the nineteenth century and beginning of the twentieth century,
there was this period of Americans being interested in exotic
new foods from Mexico, spurred on by food and travel writers.
So people would come into like San Antonio and and
(27:53):
try these new fangled things and um, so that was
going on as well the same time. Um. Some sources
indicate that chili kun queso appeared on restaurant menus by
nineteen ten, when the Gunter Hotel in San Antonio served it.
One of the first written recipes for chili con queso
(28:14):
out of Texas appeared in the nineteen twenties San Antonio cookbook,
published by a local women's organization, and it called for
American cheese. And yeah, unlike in Mexican dishes that used
melting cheeses. Ever since, processed American cheese is invented in
the nineteen tins by Craft, is for the most part
(28:35):
been the cheese used in chili con que. So when
Velvita was popularized after its nineteen nineteen invention in the
nineteen thirties, which was after Craft purchased the product, consumers
of all economic stratus fell in love with it, using
it in all kinds of dishes. It was easy and
(28:55):
convenient and tasty. And at the time it was advertised
as a hell food because cheese is healthy. That that
was that, that was the idea that people, these advertisers
were like, you know, good good cheese, cheese. It helps,
(29:16):
it helps you grow strong. Get this easy cheese. It
melts good, molts good. Yeah, And it appeared in all
kinds of cookbooks and magazines. Um Velvita often served with
chips and tostadas and crackers or toast um. One of
the first recipes for chilian queso with Velvita popped up
(29:38):
in a nineteen nine recipe book out of Lubbock, Texas,
And this happened to coincide with a lot of things,
a perfect caso storm if you will caso storm, I know.
Right at the time, the US government did begin buying
cheese to support the American dairy industry, though it wasn't
(30:00):
until the Reagan administration that so called government cheese was
distributed on a wide scale, but still this might have
been at play in Americans using American processed cheese in
Mexican dishes. UM. The increased awareness and popularity of foods
like tacos also helped, and corn tortilla chips were being
mass produced by the nineteen thirties. But before the nineteen forties,
(30:25):
the average American couldn't easily get their hands on things
like chilies are fresh halpinos, so many of these early
recipes leaned on things like patfriedka are cayen for heat um.
But a new product came along in nineteen three that
changed that canned tomatoes and spicy green chilies, the product
(30:46):
of a farmer and canary owner named Carl rotel Um.
He was concerned the American public would struggle pronouncing his name,
so he shortened it to Rowtel and there you go. UM.
At first, hotel was only available in Texas, but by
the nineteen fifties they started expanding UM to nearby states,
(31:08):
mostly and in ninety nine, wanting to cash in on
the popularity of case at things like football games and
just gatherings in general, Rotel began marketing itself as an
essential ingredient for k so UM. The recipe they published
that year was easy. Just mixing their product with melted
cheese served with chips, You're done. Americans were encouraged to
(31:31):
use this new Rotel product with processed cheese through advertisements
pretty much from the jump, and the ads were so
successful that the products are advertised other to this day. UM.
Despite being owned by different companies, Craft and Rotel specifically
joined forces in the nineteen eighties. But but yeah, I
(31:51):
know that they each company had separately been like as
far as I can tell, completely independently being like, yeah,
pair our stuff with this other thing. It's what you do. Um.
And because both Velvita and Rotel were inexpensive and widely
available by the seventies and eighties, UM, at least it
seems in most of the United States, maybe not all
(32:14):
the United States. Uh. It was so easy to just
warm the Velvita and add in the Rotel chilies to
make a smooth, say remixture. Because it was easy, cheap
and pretty available. This version of chili con caso became
a popular dip on American tables. Um but of course
(32:34):
this is not the only version of keso, and caso
is not always served in dip form. But you know,
chili con queso in the US, that's what a lot
of people think of first. Yes, specifically right velveta and
rotel mm hmmm. Um. So restaurants thrived after World War Two,
and this helped bring kso more mainstream as well. One
(32:56):
well loved version that I saw in multiple article came
out of Matt's l Rancher restaurant, which opened in nineteen
fifty two. There, Bob Armstrong Dip chili kan queso with guacamole,
Sara cream, and taco meat was immediately popular after they
debuted it in the nineteen sixties, allegedly named after the
influential politician Bob Armstrong who requested an offmanu item and
(33:19):
this is what they made him. Huh and his friends here,
he told his friends and they came in ordered it,
and so on and so on. It became so popular
that they made it a permanent offering and it went
on to become their most famous dish mhm. And then
in nineteen sixty four, first Lady of Claudia, Lady Bird Johnson,
(33:41):
shared her recipe for chili con queso in the Washington Post.
At the time, it was still pretty regional huh um.
And and she was from the Johnson's were from Texas,
so yes, um. So. Her recipe in this article called
for age cheddar cheese and what is thought to have
been an attempt to be more sophisticated, right, but chess
(34:04):
just didn't not well, it didn't have the flow. Yeah. Yeah,
if you if you age the cheese too much, again,
you're you're you're getting into into kind of kind of
dry territory. And that's not there's less flow. There's less flow.
And the White House chef at the time even referred
to this recipe as chili con concrete. Um. Later versions
(34:30):
it's very harshness, yes, but later versions of the recipe
from Johnson used processed cheese. I would assume that she
made it with processed cheese and Texas before this, Yeah, yeah,
she did help bump rod tails products like bring them
more to National Earns. M hmm. But hold on, we've
(34:53):
got to talk k So, so so controversy, okay, so controversy. Yeah,
in teen and Arkansas claim named their state and specifically
a Mexican restaurant in Little Rock as the birthplace of Caso.
But there it's called cheese dip. Yes. In the nineteen thirties, yeah, oh,
(35:16):
it calls quite a stir. The senators of both states
even brought dips from their respective homes for their colleagues
to judge, like blindfold taste test and the Arkansas cheese
dip one out. Well heck yeah, get it, underdogs. I
don't know why. I just got excited. It was very exciting. Um.
(35:39):
While cheese dip is made with American processed cheese, it
typically uses chili powder like earlier recipes did, so that's
the main difference. Um. Again, in the nineteen thirties, chilies
were expensive and hard to find outside of maybe Texas, well,
maybe compared to Texas if you're comparing Arkansas to Texas. However,
(36:01):
according to Lisa Faine, who literally wrote the book on
case so appropriately called Case Low exclamation Point Regional Recipes
for the World's Favorite Chili Cheese Dip, and she also
writes the Homesick Texan um, according to her, there isn't
really any legitimacy to the Arkansas claim. Oh oh yeah.
(36:21):
She traced the story to a Mexican restaurant opened via
Texan in Longview, Arkansas and later Little Rock. She called
their claim quote bogus. Wow, m I I would like
to repeat my my prior statement that like people enjoy
(36:41):
hot cheese and I don't. I mean, you know, why
can't we all just get along? Does there have to
be caso controversy? I think it seems that there must be,
because we're not even done with the case so controversy.
Mm hmmm, well okay, hold on, we're almost getting to
(37:04):
the the biggest recent controversy. Oh right, right, right, okay, okay,
but but first side book first, because this took place,
Yeah this was. But then stepping back a little bit.
ConAgra purchased Hotel in two thousand two, and in two
thousand five, Velvia and Motel became official partners. Craft In
ConAgra launched a series of quote caso awareness as outside
(37:29):
of Texas markets and two thousand eight, okay, yeah, yes,
but let us discuss this right in ten chains, Chipotle
and wind You's introduced caso at their restaurants due to
consumer demand, I believe, a Chipotle spokesperson even said we're
(37:51):
losing business to competitors because we don't offers. Yeah. So
I remember this, the Chipotle one causing white the Kurve fuffle.
The chain's version used all natural ingredients in quotes, and
they were like twenty ingredients in it. It was a lot. Yeah.
Two Americans used to ingredient version of velvet and rotel,
(38:13):
which yes, I know they have other things in there,
but very simple. Essentially, this wasn't really what they wanted
when they were getting caso and there in case, so
they it wasn't what they were expecting. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
Sales of Chipotle stock dropped three per cent in the
wake of this case, so controversy. Um. They retooled their
(38:34):
recipe to make it creamier in the following months, and
I read some reviews of it, and it sounds like
it's improved but still not snuff. They're still not quite right. Yeah, well, yeah,
I don't think. I don't think I ever tried the case.
So um. They they offered it both as a dip
and as a like topping for or or you know,
ingredient that they would put into your burrito. But yeah,
(38:57):
it it sounds like the issue was that it was
too runny. Um it wasn't. It had too much flow. Yeah, yeah,
you need you need a flow balance, um hm uh
and so it just right right, It just wasn't quite.
That texture was not there. And and yeah, people were
(39:18):
savage about it, just absolutely angry. Oh yeah. They were like,
you never offer us ks so and now you finally
offer us ks so and it's bad. Cas So. You
have made k so bad? How and why it's impossible?
Do you hate us this much? Um? People were salty? Yeah. Um,
(39:42):
I remember we got it at our office. I believe
it was our coworker Paul. It was a big Chipotle fan,
was like, we've got to try this case so and
see what the fun gosh right? Yeah, and I tried
it and I just remember like, yeah, the texture being
off and it kind of just being How was it
not salty enough? That seems impossible? Yeah, this wasn't meant
(40:08):
to be a hit piece. No. I hope that. I
hope that they they're their recipe revamp has made it better. Um,
I wish them the best. I don't know. We want
good case so options for people, I do for sure. Yeah. Yeah, yeah,
(40:28):
and if if you are just eating some Super Bowl
adjacent foods, and we hope that case. So should you
desire it, you find it, and you and enjoy it.
Oh gosh, absolutely. Um. I also hope that you try
dipping some French fries in at sometime. I hope that
you support your local restaurants, if and where you can, um,
(40:52):
getting getting nice, nice safe take out and reheating your
case so to keep it at the perfect temperature while
you're at home. Yes, because again we want you to
have a lovely case of experience. Gosh, we do. Yes. Well,
that's what we have to say about Caso for now.
(41:12):
It is. We do have some listener mail, but first
we've got one more quick break for a word from
our sponsor, and we're back. Thank you, sponsor, Yes, thank you,
and we're back with this listener's dip. I was like,
(41:42):
is it a football fumble? Is there a Oh you're right,
I should have done that missed opportunity. Oh, I think
it was very similar in concept, So you know, I
was diving. I was like diving into the yeah. Oh
oh man. I've had in my head this entire time
(42:03):
this I keep talking about about this texture of the
cheese and I just keep imagining like a like a
hot tub full. Okay, so dip mm hm. And how
in my in my like cartoon inner reality, it would
be delightful. Yeah. In actual reality, I'm sure it would
(42:25):
be gross, but it's nice to live in that cartoon
reality every now and then. Yeah. Anyway, anyway, Mackenzie wrote, Hello,
I'm not going to confess my love for lima beans,
because if I'm being honest, I don't think I've ever
had a lima bean. But I am going to confess
my love for the best book of all time. Annie.
(42:47):
Your sad story about kids making fun of you for
liking lima beans reminded of me so much of the
girl from this story. The book is called A Bad
Case of the Stripes by David Shannon. It's a children's
picture book. It's about a girl named Camilla Cream. She
loves the lime of beans, but everyone makes fun of
her for liking them, so she decides to stop eating them.
(43:07):
Soon after, she breaks out in a Bad Case of
the Stripes and her life gets turned upside down. You'll
have to read it to see how it ends, but
I'm telling you it is heartwarming and encouraging for everyone,
even a twenty nine year old who should probably read
more grown up literature. I think you will love this
book and its message. The illustrations in it are amazing
(43:28):
as well. You really should go order the book right now.
Your life will be forever better for it. Uh yeah,
oh I I wish I had had this as a kid.
I would have hardcore connected. And they are not the
only person who wrote in uh Thatcher wrote about this too, quote.
I just finished your episode on Lime of Beans and
it reminded me of this children's book I read a
(43:49):
long time ago. It's called A Bad Case of the
Stripes by David Shannon. Annie, you will love the stories.
It's your teas because you liked Lima Beans. How wonderful.
I gotta fine do. I got to search it right?
Oh gosh cool? Okay? Uh. Viva wrote, I'm late to
your episode on Tomato soup cake, but I'm definitely not
new to the cake itself. Long ago, when my kids
(44:12):
were little, I'm now a grandma, we didn't have much money.
What we did have was a dog eared, much loved
copy of the Joy of Cooking and PBS. Invariably, as
the end of the month closed in and the rent
came do again, I would have to make a trip
to one or more of the local food banks. No
matter which one I went to or what time of
the year, we always found a couple of cans of
(44:33):
condensed cream of tomato soup in the bag, sometimes Campbells,
often generic, occasionally organic, but always tomato soup. The Joy
of Cooking called it surprise cake. However, as artsy nerdy
PBS watching types, we quickly began referring to it as
the Andy Warhol Cake. It was our go to cake
for years. We added chocolate chips to the batter and
(44:55):
made a frosting out of cream, cheese and honey. For
special occasions on cold Sunday mornings, would turn it into
coffee cake with the addition of a crumble topping. Long
after our lean food bank days were over, I'd pick
up a couple of cans of tomato soup whenever it
was on sale, just to bake our beloved Andy Warhol cake.
I love that how customizable it was, and gave it
(45:18):
your own name made it. Oh that is that is
so beautiful. I really need to make this cake now,
I know. I'm so intrigued, like my brain, I can't
I know we've talked about it, but I'm imagine kind
of like a spiced cake or something. Yeah, yeah, that
that's what a lot of recipes that I've that I've
read have called for um And I imagine that the
(45:41):
tomato gives it kind of like almost like a citrusy
kind of kick. So yeah, one of these days, one
of these days gonna happen. Definitely. Thanks to those listeners
for writing. If you would like to write to us,
you can or email is hello at savorpod dot com.
Are also on social media. You can find us on Twitter, Facebook,
(46:03):
and Instagram at saver pod and we do hope to
hear from you. Savor is production of I Heart Radio.
For more podcasts my heart Radio, you can visit the
I heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen
to your favorite shows. Thanks as always to our super
producers Dylan Figin and Andrew Howard. Thanks to you for listening,
and we hope that lots more good things are coming
your way.
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